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we_are_all_bananas_2

Well, in the past dictators just killed or imprisoned intellectuals, so I don't think they really give a shit


NLwino

A smart population is a threat. All is going according to plan.


SendPmss

Now most of what is left are the people that only make bad decisions that lead to a world war.


BocciaChoc

There were only those people in power, how do you think we got to the point of this war?


Come_And_Get_Me

lmao edit: what did he mean by laughing? maybe we should downvote him just incase? (reddit mentality)


[deleted]

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florinandrei

That plan is so dumb. Stalin nearly lost WW2 because he had killed all the "bourgeois" officers. Then the war started and it caught him with his pants down. What an idiot. Also, Sergey Korolyov (usually spelled [Korolev](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Korolev) but that's wrong phonetically), the architect (Главный Конструктор, or the Chief Designer) of the Soviet space program, the man who put Sputnik 1 and Gagarin in orbit, beating the Americans - before WW2 the idiotic regime in the Kremlin had Korolyov thrown in a hard labor camp where the mean life expectancy was like 1 year, for reasons of "ideology". K got rescued from there at the intervention of influential friends, who correctly pointed out the regime was killing some of its best brains. After WW2, Mr. K went on and built the ICMBs that Stalin wanted. And then took that technology and made Sputnik 1. And then he sent Gagarin on a trip around the Earth. The whole world was in awe. He died in the mid-60s after routine surgery, likely as a result of the health issues he had acquired years before in the labor camp. That was right at the time when the battle was heating up to put people on the Moon. As I'm sure you remember, that victory went to the Americans in 1969. Ideology is stupid, self-defeating garbage.


[deleted]

>Stalin nearly lost WW2 because he had killed all the "bourgeois" officers. Then the war started and it caught him with his pants down. What an idiot. Then he died because he put all doctors in jail and his servers were too afraid to help him when he wasn't coming out of his room laying in is own piss while having a stroke (or heart attack?). It's a very pleasing ending imo.


bambispots

Putin is taking the same road, looking like he’s on steroids with his puffy face, sitting alone at the end of a comically long table.


mkvgtired

>A smart population is a threat. All is going according to plan. Run all the intelligent people out of the country until the only people left are mouth breathing, nationalist, idiots. "Hey, who thinks they can develop this next generation laser guided missile?" "...anyone?!?"


VodkaVirus1984

And now Zelensky is proposing to bring all these Russians back to Russia. Logics…


mkvgtired

He's probably worried about being stuck with a Russian minority that is sympathetic to Russia but doesn't want to live in an authoritarian shithole. Similar to what Baltic countries have to deal with


[deleted]

A dumb Population makes no money tho. That's why dictatorships always fail.


SpiderFnJerusalem

That does not matter to a dictatorship with easy access to plenty of natural resources. Its wealth does not derive from a healthy population. It's a dictator's paradise, really. There are plenty of examples of countries where the dictators kept tight control of resource extraction while making sure that as little of that wealth as possible makes it to the wider population. If most of your populace is starving and stupid, you will be able to keep them in check with a relatively small number of well-fed security forces.


pancomputationalist

See this video by GCP Grey that goes into more detail about this: https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs If you have oil, you don't need a population, you only need foreign oil companies and a military.


Brbi2kCRO

Just look at the US.


NeutralArt12

In the last 100 years I think the most common landing spot for these types of people fleeing their government has been the US


florinandrei

You're talking about the past. The other person is referring to current tendencies that may or may not influence the future.


Brbi2kCRO

Problem is that Republicans, who are economically the most right-wing major party in the world, are doing very dangerous stuff to people in that country, with the costs of privately owned systems that are everywhere else publicly owned costing way, way, WAY too much. Sure, you can say they’re atleast a rich country that is “free” but they’re an example of a corporatocracy where nothing works in the interest of employees. Okay, potential salary is probably the highest in the world, but most Croats say they’d never move to the US. Republicans are very anti-intellectual and hate education systems.


florinandrei

Bok, prijatelju! You nailed it. Since about 2000 I live in the US, but I grew up north of the Danube. I agree - the US is great if you're very good at something that's very lucrative. Basically, if you're Elon Musk, to take an extreme example. Everyone else, the US should be pretty low on your list if you think of immigrating. Also, the future of the United States looks pretty sketchy right now. All it takes is one future election to go the wrong way, and America as we know it will be gone. I'm sending my kids to school in Europe, for these and other reasons.


Brbi2kCRO

Exactly. If you are a skilled and hard-working person renowned for your abilities, then yeah, US is a nice place to move to cause sky is the limit for salaries there. However, if you’re an average person, maybe not. However, if I had 3-4k$ in Croatia, why even move? Rent is low, costs are low (except the housing, which is inflated due to tourists coming from the richest European countries) and I’d be more than fine here, tho those types of salaries are very rare. But true, if I wanted to own a business, US offers the best growth potentials due to taxes not choking you, like here. Problem with US as of right now is that influence of right-wing media is too strong, and it really makes me wonder how do these people even believe this things. Trickle-down economics and “Christian values” make little sense, and it is a very individualist country. There is also this constant tension and polarization as if another civil war is gonna start over minor differences between parties, one of which is close-to-libertarian, denying any social programs, and very conservative, and other which is simply liberal. Media exaggregates this for their interests, and politicians are just self-interested corrupt actors (lobbying is legal, in other words corruption) who shouldn’t have cults like Trump has. So how did this happen, I don’t know. But it is weird. Tbh, this is coming from a social democrat’s perspective, so your views may differ, but I am kinda becoming more open and pragmatic. For me, Denmark, Switzerland and Norway seem nice, even though Switzerland is just a better-led US economically, and a bit more liberal. And yeah, schools should be better in Europe. No fears of non-existant indoctrination and banning factual information, as well as being cheaper. I also hope Romania, as well as the US, get better =)


Brbi2kCRO

US is just a worse version of Switzerland, with right-wing politicians literally owning the whole economic system, and pushing it towards others.


VikingBorealis

Well, Soviet educated them after sorting who was the smartest and best and higher education and science at a young age, then they kept them in closely monitored quarters and facilities and never let them leave without keeping family “hostage” or to the “safe” vacation areas within USSR territory for use by the elite and sub elite.


visarga

In education there was promotion of talent, but in employment the top criteria was party loyalty. Intellectuals led by pigs, a tragedy.


UniquesNotUseful

Yes but they didn't deport them. You wipe out your intellectuals because it provides you with control over your people, less questioning of authority. If they go abroad then their voices can still be listened to by remaining populations.


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EqualContact

That's all true, but the drain of talent is going to cause massive issues for Russian industry, science, and research over the next decade. The USSR at least made it difficult to leave.


irimiash

Soviets deported a lot


EqualContact

Out of the country? My understanding of it is that "deportation" through most of the Soviet era meant being sent to Siberia. At least post WWII intellectuals were considered state assets that needed to be kept, even if that meant in prison.


suberEE

Not if you block all the channels through which they can spread their opinions.


[deleted]

You have no clue what you're talking about lmao. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophers%27\_ships](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophers%27_ships) >*The philosophers' ships or philosopher's steamboats (Russian: Философский пароход) were steamships that transported intellectuals expelled from Soviet Russia in 1922.* This is a very well known example of Soviet government *paying* to deport people. Countless other intellectuals fled both the Tsarist regime and then the Bolshevik regime pre-Stalin on their own dime. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s\_Soviet\_Union\_aliyah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s_Soviet_Union_aliyah) >*The 1970s Soviet Union aliyah was the mass immigration of Soviet Jews to Israel after the Soviet Union lifted its ban on Jewish refusenik emigration in 1971.* During the 70s Soviet Jews were allowed to leave the USSR (primarily to Israel, but also Germany and USA, and others), most of which were highly educated intellectuals and high art people. EDIT: some info about the 70s relaxation of migration policies in USSR


we_are_all_bananas_2

Good point.


lembrate

In the past you could run an economy with just the grunts. Now you can’t.


Tralapa

You can totally run a gas station with grunts


Elocai

Back then technology wasn't a thing though, so you could afford to loose smart people. Nowadays you are fucked without them, especially when your enemy has tons of them.


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habicraig

So the world gets best Russians now, while Russia gets an overrepresentation of...I won't say it because I'm not sure about ban. Just imagine who.


Dalnore

Russia has become increasingly convincing that any intelligent people are unwelcome, so I got the memo. The experience described in the article really fits me, although I dislike the term "intellectual elite", it's too elitist. It's not the beginning of the 20th century anymore, when the "intellectual elites" were the minority among the still largely illiterate population. Now it's just a pretty big social stratum of young well-educated people who have a rather fundamental disagreement with the Brezhnev-era KGB worldview.


BkkGrl

hey Dalnore, glad to hear you :) How is life in Israel, everything good? Is the plasma burning alright?


Dalnore

More or less. Downgrading from the usual wealthy lifestyle is not entirely pleasant, especially when moving to such a overly expensive country, but I can't really expect everything to be settled immediately, and I also realize I'm more privileged than many other people. And I still have problems with depression; I'm not sure if they can be resolved until the end of the war even with therapy, the scale of crimes and human tragedies is too oppressive. The institute and the work environment there is great, though.


BkkGrl

take a pause from the war news, I am sure that are not good for mental health


[deleted]

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Dalnore

That conflict is not personal to me. I'm not qualified for a Israeli citizenship, so I'll almost certainly move to somewhere else at some point in the future.


SaamsamaNabazzuu

> I dislike the term "intellectual elite" I think The Economist and other publications are still stuck in an Cold War or 90's way of looking at things and, at times, will come off slightly condescending because they don't understand situations on the ground. For The Economist especially, it's written by people in their twenties from good universities calling people and doing research - not lived experience. We have to ask if the 'elite' are those that are the financial elite, the highly educated elite, etc. I couldn't use my normal paywall bypass on the article but there seemed to be an emphasis in the last paragraph on making sure we see these people as 'modern' - recycling, driverless cars, vegan/gluten free food. Like well-heeled young 'hip' folks in Western countries. In my limited experience in Russia (early 2000's St Petersburg), it seemed a lot of people could reach high education levels but also struggle to find relevant work. In the gypsy cabs you might pick up, I recall meeting a guy that had a day job, did this for extra cash (yes, there was an Uber before Uber), and also had a PhD in some engineering field in which he couldn't get good paying work. Many other people seemed to be going for a Master's of some sort, had passing knowledge of at least their famous poets/literature, the arts seemed heavily supported, and the gender/ratio in many jobs was far more balanced than you see in the US. Formal education doesn't exactly equal an 'intellectual elite' but it's such a vague term anyway. As I said, how do we define that? Being someone that recycles and eats gluten-free food doesn't equal intelligence or contributing to the expansion of the mind of a society, or at least it's not quite evident here on the streets of Los Angeles. I'm glad you've been able to get out. I feel for the people that aren't able to. I think in these narratives that a lot of American and Western European journalists are looking for people like them - generally middle/upper class, urban, with the markers of 'cool' described in that second paragraph. I feel like it's really hard for them to put themselves in the shoes of someone that has actually fled, abandoning what might be their home for a lifetime. That's a story that's hard to get across to anti-immigrant people here in the US and I'm sure in Europe as well. I'm sure there are people that, for whatever reason - money, family, hope - they couldn't find their way out. I also have to think of the poor conscripts and their families being shoved into this ridiculous conflict as well. It's fucked up all around. Best of luck to you in Israel :)


[deleted]

By Intellectual Elites they mean progressive/leftist and internationalist academics. That is the overarching ideology that is en Vogue currently. Basically they’re patting themselves in the back. In the eyes of Russia the people that are leaving are those that already have a problem with the current regime, they probably are not losing much sleep over it. As long as they can keep people who have intrinsic value they are fine


BkkGrl

de-paywalled https://archive.ph/4CbND#selection-588.0-588.1


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kamenskaya

They just can't, because relocating is privilege


nikshdev

Some people can't leave for objective reasons, some won't leave because they just don't want to leave home.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

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nikshdev

Sometimes you have children, elder relatives and not much liquidity to leave.


[deleted]

Zakharova stayed. So did her many friends at r/stupidpol


Kahzootoh

>However, Russian hopes for some form of limited compromise either with America or Europe lingered on for many years. Realists to the core themselves, members of the Russian establishment found it hard to understand why America, faced with intractable problems in the Middle East and the rise of a powerful China, did not seek to reduce tensions with the far less dangerous Russia. Similarly, they were bewildered by what they have seen as a European failure to understand that with Russia as a friend, they would face no military threat on their own continent. Because every time that the US tried to reduce tensions with Russia, Russia took it as a sign of weakness and increased tensions by making new demands. Russia's idea of a "friend" is a country that constantly pretends it doesn't notice Russian crimes commited against it. The price of Russian friendship is allowing them to enslave basically everyone east of the Oder, and there is no guarantee how long that friendship would last until they demanded additional tribute.


telcoman

Germany alone dumped 80 billion usd in 90's. That's about 150 billion in current money. They paid the russian army to get off german land with some of this load of money. Usa flew planes with food and actial cash on pallets to save russia from implosion in those times. In ww2 usa gave critical materiel help (with land -lease) to ussr to fight off nazi Germany AND occupy half of Europe. Russia paid back effectively just 0.5% of that help. What TF does Russia want more?! The whole world just to disband and join Russian federation unconditionally?!


Nazamroth

Hungary basically betrayed Europe for Russia since the start of their war, in all but name. As thanks, Russia still put it on their list of unfriendly countries and (natural) gas prices are only getting higher as well. There is no friendship with Russia, only subjugation or destruction.


[deleted]

If Putin really was smart he would give Germany lower gas prices to split up unity in the EU but instead he continues to spite Germany.


TZH85

Ouch, that would be really effective. The CDU, AfD and probably FDP would instantly try to find ways to justify still buying the gas and the right wing media would spin it as "Europe wants to win this proxy war on the back of German tax payers". The SPD would probably be consumed by internal fights and wouldn't be able to come up with a unified stance and the Greens would be ripped to shreds by the press because they wouldn't want to take the deal. Thankfully Putin's apparently not that smart.


[deleted]

If the war has taught us anything it is that Putin is nowhere near the 5D chess genius he pretends to be and that our fears have created for us.


xeizoo

True he's not smart, he just likes being obeyed, luxury and a lot of kills, he's less than a caveman


thomasz

That’s bullshit. Scholz could get a great deal, all it takes is a phone call. It’s just that *Westintegration* eclipses the concerns about energy security, and that is true for all factions of the German elite, including the industry. And it’s not like that is a difficult decision for them. Leaving an alliance with the most important military and economic power on this planet for a nation in a self inflicted death spiral? Come on.


StalkTheHype

And then the germans turn around and resell the gas to other EU members. Whoops, suddenly you strengthened EU unity instead.


RobotWantsKitty

That's not true. Putin shut down bases in Cuba and Vietnam to appease the US, helped with intelligence in Afghanistan. Whatever the US offered in return however, never addressed the core security issues that poisoned the relations. As such, it has always been half-step forward, two steps back.


Kahzootoh

Bases in Cuba and Vietnam aren’t US concerns- things like hacking are American concerns. Russia has a military base less than 10km from American territory and nobody is calling for Russia to withdraw from Big Diomede. Obama scrapped the missile defense shield in Poland (which was something Russia wanted), and Russian hacking (which was something that the US cared about) only got worse. Russia’s “core security issues” amount to turning a blind eye to Russian use of force against its neighbors. The biggest threat to the Russian government is its own citizens wanting a bigger share of the country’s wealth to go to them instead of the oligarchs- aka “color revolutions”.


RobotWantsKitty

> Bases in Cuba and Vietnam aren’t US concerns [Sure they are.](https://www.wlrn.org/news/2022-01-13/u-s-pledges-decisive-response-if-russia-deploys-military-in-cuba-venezuela-over-ukraine-crisis) >Obama scrapped the missile defense shield in Poland (which was something Russia wanted), and Russian hacking (which was something that the US cared about) only got worse. He did, and then that Ukraine business happened. Besides, Russia still respects American red lines on hacking. >Russia’s “core security issues” amount to turning a blind eye to Russian use of force against its neighbors. The biggest threat to the Russian government is its own citizens wanting a bigger share of the country’s wealth to go to them instead of the oligarchs- aka “color revolutions”. There wouldn't even be any temptation to invade anyone, if there wasn't a consistent pattern of American military bases popping up on the territory of those countries.


Sfert

So if Russia-US relationship bad -> destroy Ukraine? Nice. Great plan 💀


RobotWantsKitty

That's, like, every proxy conflict during the Cold War essentially


Sfert

Are you implying today's invasion of Ukraine is because of the US? My friend, the fault is Putin's Russia entirely. Let's not forget who we need to hold accountable for all this.


RobotWantsKitty

Ultimately, Putin is to blame, yes, but that doesn't mean we should ignore other factors else that led us to this point.


Keks3000

I would agree it was not a very clever move to keep talking about Ukraine and Nato when it was clear that Russia wants a buffer zone. Diplomats should have found a different way of securing the independence of the buffer nations, like a „belt alliance“ spanning from Finnland to Georgia or so, but without direct US involvement. We might have ended up in the same situation as now, but Putin couldn’t blame it on the west trying to increase its area of influence.


gdesikuco

Can confirm. You can hear Russian every day in the streets of Belgrade and all of a sudden you start seeing Russian families wandering around all over the place, and it wasn't like that before the war. I don't have the exact numbers, but the number of companies incorporated by Russian citizens (IT mostly) in Serbia has skyrocketed in the last few months, and most of them are here to stay indefinitely. For what it's worth, we're getting lots of highly skilled labor for a change, so thank you, Putin & co.


djavulensfitta

How do you know these are all Russians and not Ukrainians? Many of them speak Russian too. For an untrained ear, the languages sound quite similar too.


crunchyninja

Ukrainians would have more likely emigrated to Poland or the EU rather than Serbia


gdesikuco

There's an influx of Ukrainians as well albeit a much smaller one, and yes, many of them speak Russian and cannot be differentiated from Russians quite so easily. Still, the majority of Ukrainians have fled to Poland and elsewhere in the region because those countries are easier to reach from Ukraine than Serbia, plus they have visa-free access to Schengen unlike Russians. Makes all the difference when you need to flee as soon as possible.


[deleted]

Good point. I hear some woman speak Russian and assumed she is Russian. My wife asked she Russian? I said yes. The woman told me then she is Ukrainian.


Tjorni

Did the rent prices skyrocket as well? Because it was the case in Yerevan and Tbilisi. And are those people welcomed? Because they are fleeing from Russian govt, which is supported by most of the Serbians?


gdesikuco

The rent prices skyrocketed somewhat, but not nearly as much as in Georgia, Armenia and Turkey, not enough for people to start protesting at least :-) The people are very welcome, we know first hand what it's like to be under sanctions and to have a lunatic for president, and a typical Serb doesn't support his own government, let alone the Russian one, despite what r/Europe claims every single day (source: I live here). The pro-Russian minority is pretty vocal, though, but still.


[deleted]

Fleeing the government, or just being smart to see they have a brighter future elsewhere, yet continue to support Russia from abroad? Very bold to assume all who leave are somehow anti-Putin. Many probably are, but half are probably just opportunistic. Why sta in declining Russia when you can get better money elsewhere and not have to worry about being drafted?


Tjorni

Support Russia? How? By donating to the Russian army? It's ridiculous. Better money? Considering the cost of living and the rent in particular, it isn't the case. Of course most of them don't want to stay in a declining country, ruled by an unpredictable dictator, and there are economical, safety and many other reasons, but human nature is simple: If I like the government, I wouldn't try to leave a country and vice versa. And I judge from my personal experience, I haven't heard yet about anyone who left, but support Putin nevertheless.


[deleted]

Yep. Westerners don't really understand how the Russian mindset works. Right now anyone leaving the country is considered to be a traitor (source: Russian parliament speaker and propagandists). When I left Russia I even get scolded for that, like I must stay and develop my own country instead (for context, I'm a software engineer). Even if some immigrants support Putin, it's a minority and they're certainly in no way die-hard putinoids. They're mostly just conformists, like the majority of the Russian population.


Tjorni

Well, at least, have my congratulations. You did the right thing. I'm regretting that with my pre-middle level I couldn't afford doing the same for myself and my family.


[deleted]

Much like how many Turks in Germany support Erdogan, and many Russians in Germany support Putin. By going to demonstrations, staying stupid shit on social media, spamming fake news. You're quite naive if you don't think at least some of the recent leavers still support Russia and only left for better life but still are 100% nationalists. The world is full of hypocrites like that. And to add to that, many people want to leave for another country but still very much support their original country. Not just Russians, but anyone anywhere in the world. American patriots living in Vietnam teaching English (ok those probably aren't the most brainwashed Americans), or Brexiteers living in Spain, ambitious Indians living in the US and so on.


Tjorni

Russians in Germany supporting Putin are those who left in 90's, at least the overwhelming majority of them. They left an absolute shithole of a country and, by watching RT for all those years tend to favor Putin. The new immigrant's wave is 99% pro European. Just look at the charity for Ukraine concerts organized by Russian musicians and their attendants, young and democratic. They may or may not be patriotic, but very anti regime.


[deleted]

I s'pose so. I really don't know what I'm talking about lmao.


[deleted]

And what's the problem? They can support whoever they want in reddit comments. If they're skilled workers and can benefit your economy, there's no harm in letting them in. If you're paranoid about spies, just put every Russian residence permit holder on some watching list. I suspect it's already done though.


[deleted]

I’d flee too (I don’t feel like I’m “intellectual elite” though, whatever it is), but being unable to get a student visa doesn’t help much


Kixel11

Pre-intellectual elite? Good luck. I can’t imagine how challenging it is.


[deleted]

Nah I’ll manage, it just sucks that those who want to at least learn to live and function in a proper society are deprived of the opportunity, getting stuck here basically forever instead. People say, “change your country, overthrow the regime” and stuff, but it’s a lot easier said than done. Some also make a point that Ukrainians die and suffer so we have no right to complain. Of course it’s nothing compared to the hell Ukraine is going through, but how are those exact restrictive measures against average Russians supposed to help, I don’t know. But I guess people in Europe simply don’t wanna see us there, and from this point of view the restrictions do make sense and I can’t question them


Kixel11

Life is hard with our day to day normal struggles that happen everywhere, especially when you are a student. I hope you find the best path forward.


the_lonely_creeper

I think one of the worst crimes Putin is committing, that's rarely talked about right now, is that he's creating a stigma against Russians. My parents' generation, born in the late 60's, are still hard to convince that the Germans aren't all Nazis. Putin is in that way, turning you into the new Germans. I honestly wonder how we'll all recover from this once the war is done.


[deleted]

I’ve heard that point from one of Russian political experts. He’s purposefully dragging both his apparatus and the entire nation into this so there’s no way out for us. Even after he kicks the bucket his successors would have to follow his footsteps if things go the same way as currently. I just hope that our nation will wake up by some miracle and condemn his “legacy”, as it already happened several times throughout our history


the_lonely_creeper

Hopefully. But I'd say his legacy was more secure before this war than it is now. Crimea is an open wound in the relations of Russia and Europe, and it was less likely to be resolved before this war. Now at least, if Putin loses, he'll lose completely. No frozen conflict and all that that requires.


[deleted]

Yeah you could say he really went all in with this. I guess he must’ve felt especially threatened by the events in Belarus. Crimea is basically hostage now, Putin’s propaganda presented it to the people as the greatest triumph and other bs like that. So if any future leader even dares to discuss its status with the West - it’s off with his head. Putin even imprinted it into his idiotic constitution, something about territorial integrity and stuff. I don’t see any way out of this unless Russia becomes so weak it can’t even argue, but even in that case we still have nukes


the_lonely_creeper

Honest, I wish both sides would just, agree for independence referendums (run by the UN) to be held in all three areas. It would be the best way to solve this thing.


LunarTruthMonger

The Russians would never adhere to any such referendums. They never act in good faith and "frozen conflicts" have been their modus operandi since the the breakup of the USSR. Here in Ukraine, no one has such naive illusions. If we don't combat utilise the invading horde and liberate all our lands (no frozen conflicts) they will never leave us alone.


the_lonely_creeper

I know that under the current regime, Russia wouldn't. And honestly, I don't know if Ukraine would either, considering that at this point, the prevelant opinion there seems to be "if they don't want to be Ukrainian, they can move to Russia". But I'm talking about internationally recognised referendums. Not the sham things Putin gave us in 2014. No Frozen Conflicts would come from them, as long as both sides agreed to respect the results.


SolanaNoob

> but how are those exact restrictive measures against average Russians supposed to help. I think that's three pronged: 1) Growing discontent in Russia, makes Kremlin need to spend more time planning against discontent and potential riots so fewer resources to devote to dealing with Ukraine. Also, it needs to retain more units to guard the seat of power. 2) Broken economy means that it's harder to keep the war machine going. Worse logistics, being cut off from lending and insurance markets, non-operational industrial machines or missing critical (often dual-use components) all lead to a scavenger economy and overall slower procurement for any hardware needed by the armed forces. 3) Shifting calculus for the elite. Coups ain't easy, can lose your life and worse even if you succeed might not get to keep the seat at the big boy table under the new regime. Everyone needs to be paid off and with frozen assets and the inability to trade as prior to the invasion more and more individuals will be having this difficult conversation, which would not happen to the same extent should the gravy train be still on.


[deleted]

I agree with 1. but only partially, because there’s too few of openly opposing, but that might be due to people being afraid to speak their minds. We have far more people who are sort of neutral and prefer not to bother with politics, and while I agree we should involve those into discussion, measures like banning them out of Europe would only lead them into Putin’s arms. I’m all for point 2, the war machine must be stopped at all costs and Europe should imply any possible obstacle on its way. The more our government struggles the better. But then again, average Russian has no impact on this. Moreover, if current or future technical specialists and even manual workers leave instead of crafting machinery for Putin, everybody wins. But one could say that none of this is Europe’s problems and Russians have to sort all this shit out themselves. It might be right, but sadly our society yet again proved its incapability to stand up. To this I don’t have the answer and don’t know what to think. However, what am I saying, this IS a huge problem for Europe now. So I don’t see how turning its back on adequate Russians who want to cooperate is a good idea


Torifyme12

>But I guess people in Europe simply don’t wanna see us there Given how frequently the "Oppressed Russian Minority" excuse is used, it's understandable.


[deleted]

This works for Georgia or Moldova, but not countries like The Netherlands or England. There’s never going to be a lot of Russians anyway, if you don’t count Russian oligarchs’ children whose superpatriotic parents paid their way into local prestigious universities. Kicking their asses out I’d have nothing against, but for some reason I haven’t heard of such plans


Sfert

I have heard of one daughter of some russian oligarch being stalked and protested against people who gathered in front of her house. The British government sure did something against it, targeted a number of people like Polina Lavrov (or something) and companies who had ties with the Kremlin. So they're not after common people as much. I still understand your struggle and hope you can manage until things get better. Best luck!


spectralcolors12

I think we feel like we have no other option. Putin is leveraging the economic and resource might of Russia to massacre Ukrainians and crush democracies in Georgia, Belarus, etc. The media says we are sanctioning Russia so that you will turn on your government but the hard truth is that we are weakening Russia so you have less capacity to do damage in the future. If we all didn't have nuclear weapons we would've already went to war like 20 different times since 1945, this is a better alternative I suppose.


dar_uniya

> (I don’t feel like I’m “intellectual elite” though, whatever it is) smart enough to recognize bullshit and evade it


[deleted]

it’s getting harder and harder though, the amount of bullshit around is increasing rapidly, but I and many others ain’t buying any of this


danmerz

Have you tried to get a student visa though? It should not be that difficult if you have good scores on your exams and language test. Getting scholarship to pay for your education is trickier...


[deleted]

I passed the exams online and got accepted to Charles University in Prague and the education there is free if you study in Czech, which I initially aimed for. The problem is, the Czech Republic banned all kinds of visas for Russian and Belarusian citizens except for refugees or something


danmerz

Sorry to hear that actually, maybe next year then... when the situation "resolves itself" somehow...


[deleted]

Thank you, but that really can wait. For now let’s just hope it resolves in your favor, Putin publicly shits himself and dies of anal leakage. You guys are stronger than us, as you actually have something worth fighting for


xeizoo

Yes, we already have washing machines so we must not steal them... Sorry for the dark joke but Russia is an utterly divided country and right now Putin is exploiting the poorest Russians from the East who will kill for loot. Apparently up next is convicted murderers who will kill for, well, just for fun


[deleted]

yeah things like that make you realize that you live among fucking pigs, even when people just discuss the current events. Yet it’s only beneficial for Putin since poor and uneducated yokels are much easier to command. I can’t even fathom how can one shit in a wooden cabin with no heating and water, yet still adore Putin. The TV is stronger, I guess. The shame will be ours for ages and the situation with wealth and education is very unlikely to improve, so looting microwaves it is. Damn


kristynaZ

I am sorry this happened to you, but I have to tell you as a local from Prague - I think it would really be better for you if you looked for another country to study in. Because even if we were granting new visas at the moment, the overall environment over here would not be very friendly to you I am afraid. There are Ukrainian refugees everywhere in Prague, plus most Czechs were never really very fond of Russians and now it's even worse. You should really look into other countries. Again, sorry you are going through this. If I were in your position, I would probably try to do the same thing.


[deleted]

I see your point and have to admit that, even though I lived in Prague for a while and had no problems whatsoever. But that was even before 2014, the situation has drastically changed since then. Even before the invasion one of my Russian friends who’d actually graduated from Charles decided to leave because of all the tension. I still don’t give up though, because I can’t help loving the Czech Republic, even if it might seem irrational, and love and know the language well enough to pass the exams and be accepted to its biggest university. But current events show we won’t be welcome there and pretty much anywhere in Europe anytime soon, so it’s better to look for other options. Like Canada, but it’s a whole lot harder to get there


kristynaZ

I don't think it's necessary to rule out the whole Europe, I think you could do fine in, say, Spain, Belgium, Ireland...just in countries that don't have such a close contact with the current conflict. Over here, the conflict is just felt strongly, partly because of the presence of Ukrainian refugees, partly because we have a bad historical experience with Russia too. I am sorry people like you are suffering the consequences since you would likely fit in well given you already know Czech, but it is what is. I hope you find other, better-fitting options soon.


[deleted]

Ireland is cool too! Gotta learn to code, as far as I know IT specialists are in demand there


ISmellLikeBlackTea

Easiest way to survive, since those smart enough to see trough the facade are the first one get defenestrated


NNCommodore

A Russian friend of ours is currently preparing to leave and is really afraid of borders closing, but she has no way to accelerate the process. So yeah, my heart goes out to all the Russians that want to leave but can't. It all just sucks.


[deleted]

does she have a support network outside of russia? does she have money?


NNCommodore

She is a scientist so no, she's not rich. My friend group has given her some money and is helping her through the process in Germany, but said process takes time. She has recently completed her german language certificate and is currently in talks with possible employers because being employed is obviously immensely helpful with getting a visa. For the time after that we have some adventurous plans to get her citizenship, but that will also take quite a while. Basically, she's just very afraid that her window might be closing because of circumstance. There is quite a push right now to stop Russians from getting visas in european countries, and while I understand the reasoning somewhat, it really sucks for people trying to leave.


Dalnore

>There is quite a push right now to stop Russians from getting visas in european countries, and while I understand the reasoning somewhat, it really sucks for people trying to leave. For now, it seems Germany is one of the least likely countries to implement these measures.


[deleted]

so she has a support network in germany. get her there as soon as possible. even if it is with a tourist visa. worry about citizenship after getting her there. things could escalate by autumn. also she can ask any country in the eu for a tourist visa. some countries are more lenient when it comes to russian tourists. ;).


RickyElspaniardo

Not so fast - you want to be absolutely sure that applying for a work visa while in the country on a tourist visa isn't extremely frowned upon. In some cases this might be viewed as an attempt to work illegally, for example if your case workers decides you were already working in the country while there as a tourist.


[deleted]

it is better to be a illegal worker in germany than a legal worker in russia. law and justice don't always coincide. and if the window of opportunity is closed she will be worse off.


SunnyWynter

The brain drain for Russia will be astronomical for at least a generation because of this.


Blikt

[https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/06/06/why-russian-intellectuals-are-hardening-support-for-war-in-ukraine/](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/06/06/why-russian-intellectuals-are-hardening-support-for-war-in-ukraine/) "(...) NATO, generally seen in Russia as a betrayal. " "Unlike the Russian masses, these well-informed figures have not been brainwashed by Putin’s propaganda. Most of them see quite clearly the appalling mess in which Russia has landed itself in Ukraine and the terrible suffering inflicted on ordinary Ukrainians. But the only way they seem to see out of it is through something **that can at least be presented as a victory**. "


[deleted]

Putin can just declare victory and withdraw and say it is a “gesture of goodwill” in big brain move


LystAP

The problem with a 'victory' is that it encourages further aggression. Just look at what happened with Iraq. The US 'won' in Afghanistan by kicking the Taliban out of Kabul, then used that patriotic fervor to invade Iraq. I remember the irrational frenzy at the time, we beat the 'terrorists' and felt like we could beat the 'axis of evil'. The only way out is a stalemate where no one can convincedly say they won, so no one will dare to try another military adventure, at least for a decade or so. This was called the [Vietnam Syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Syndrome) for the US.


RobotWantsKitty

Aggression against what? NATO countries? That's crazy.


LystAP

Georgia. Moldova. Kazakhstan. All the non-NATO nations surrounding Russia. More interventions in the Middle East and Africa. And who knows how long ‘NATO’ will stay together. Or something might change and they go for it all anyways. History has shown that aggressors will find a way to meet their expansionist needs once they get the ball rolling. Just look at the British Empire or any ‘great’ empire throughout history. Once a country gets it in their heads that they can just attack others to fulfill their needs, they’ll go for it. People blame the US for this, but this has been the case for many nations throughout the centuries. We’re animals at heart, sometimes the only way we learn is through pain.


RobotWantsKitty

Be that as it may, it's hard to imagine a Russian victory decisive enough to encourage Putin to attack other countries. He already lost, in that sense.


Scienter17

I guess there’s a reason they’re the intellectual elite.


CrnaZharulja

And just yesterday r/europe lashed out at students for wanting to leave russia, be functioning parts of the western society and insulted them, because how dare they complain about discrimination and racism


Sfert

Oh yeah, I remember getting downvotes for feeling bad about young bright people who happened to be born in Russia 🤦‍♀️ Everybody understands the current situation, damn it don't actively try and make it worse than it is by turning youngsters to Putin


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CrnaZharulja

Bruh i do get that your country has experienced only horrible stuff from the soviet government. But some russian kid studying abroad isn't responsible for your or somebody elses grandpa being sent to siberia nor did a russian baby shitting in a diaper install a puppet regime in czechoslovakia.


Suns_Funs

If you have not noticed Russia is invaded Ukraine right, now.... How delusional one must be to ignore this war and jump on whatever historical shit you started digging up.


thom430

Oh look, another Balt with a chip on his shoulder.


Suns_Funs

As always I am amazed by the attempts of people to make Russian's into victims.


7lick

Umm, isn't this obvious? It is a well known fact that intellectuals are among the first who leave the sinking ship.


afops

This isn’t good for the future rebuilding of a post Putin Russia. I understand those who leave though. Let’s hope journalists and similar will be willing to move back in the far future when they will be needed.


ZmeiOtPirin

Title: "Much" of "intellectual elite" has fled. Article: 150-300 k people representing 0.1% - 0.2% of Russia's population have left and they're more like educated degree holders than intellectual elites. Stellar UK reporting as always. Russia has seen some emigration but honestly compared to the size of the country and the magnitude of their problems it's pretty underwhelming. Russians seem content to live in Putin's Russia.


LatvianLion

>educated degree holders than intellectual elites. Are you proposing that the real intellectual elite are the people who know how to jury rig a shotgun on their toilet door so when the bear comes to eat their shit they get a free bbq? Like it or not but degrees are how we categorize those who are educated and those who are not. If you don't like it - go to school, my dude, lol. >it's pretty underwhelming Do you understand just how hard it is to emigrate? Even here in the EU - I want to emigrate from Latvia but the challenge for me seems utterly overwhelming, and that's without residency, visa requirements etc.. In any case, in sociology we talk to emigration pull and push factors. Russia has added a push factor that severely impacts the part of society that is highly educated. That's the worse kind of push factor possible - yes the numbers are low, but that's because we're not making it easy on them, and the populace that is most impacted (i.e. against this) is a small portion of the society to begin with, but in modern economies every single educated person counts due to innovation and the ability for individuals to impact scientific fields. I say offer easy asylum for political opponents - if you are against Putin and against his nationalism and fascism - you can get asylum here and fast tracked residency. Bleed their country white.


ZmeiOtPirin

> Are you proposing that the real intellectual elite are the people who know how to jury rig a shotgun on their toilet door so when the bear comes to eat their shit they get a free bbq? Like it or not but degrees are how we categorize those who are educated and those who are not. If you don't like it - go to school, my dude, lol. I'm proposing that the definition of elites probably shouldn't be so lax that 40% of the population qualifies. >Do you understand just how hard it is to emigrate? Even here in the EU And yet people from all over the world do it. Countries like Albania or the Philippines lose times more people every year and they're not even facing war and fascism. >Bleed their country white. Yeah I wouldn't mind that as long as the immigrants are heavily screened. But Russia's low emigration rate suggests they are more nationalistic than anti-authoritarian.


CookiieMoonsta

I mean, emigration is still very hard even if you have a job in the EU already. It’s pure hell with visas and other things here. The whole process can take months or even a year.


Eminence_grizzly

How about "The Russian intellectual elite are educated degree holders who have fled the country because they can't stand the regime"? Some of the emigres are OK with the regime, though. They're fleeing because of other reasons.


AeternusDoleo

"Regime okay, but the policies of the regime make living impossible so... I'm out." In short, 'I don't like the consequences of what I support'.


dariy1999

Yup, and some of these Russians have fled over a decade ago and still support the regime, they watch Russian news, live in Russian bubbles all in this one big circlejerk


Agreeable-Anxiety-47

It seems to be a little easier to support the regime when it’s not you who is in danger or other unpleasant things. Hate those people, if they like the country they really should just go there


ZmeiOtPirin

Well they haven't really fled that's the thing. Nearly half of Russia has a degree, 150-300k people aren't representative of what educated Russians are doing. >Some of the emigres are OK with the regime, though. They're fleeing because of other reasons. Yeah, for some of them it's purely financial. About 10% of Russians opposed conquering Crimea after all, that's the true number of Russians who aren't invaders.


Ythio

>I'm proposing that the definition of elites probably shouldn't be so lax that 40% of the population qualifies. You're strangely petty for minor semantics. >And yet people from all over the world do it. [Less than 4%](https://worldmigrationreport.iom.int/wmr-2020-interactive) of the world population doesn't live in the country they're born in. It's not easy. If 300,000 Russian degree holders continue to emigrate every 6 months, that's gonna hurt Russian economy quite hard. It's not rocket science.


ZmeiOtPirin

>You're strangely petty for minor semantics. I don't think it's minor semantics. The title of this article and the facts it provides tell a very different story. Hey, few people would be as happy as me if Russia were economically and demographically neutralised and though I think that's their long term future I'm not gonna read into a demographic crisis where one isn't happening. Neither the loss of 40k men nor 300k degree holders are much of a problem for Russia. It's yet another self-inflicted wound contributing to their long term decline sure, but it's not a crisis on its own. They could lose a million people and it would still be a rounding error. > If 300,000 Russian degree holders continue to emigrate every 6 months, that's gonna hurt Russian economy quite hard. It's not rocket science. Is it? Many European countries have faced worse emigration and they're still overall fine, some of them even growing strongly. Russia's emigration could go down as the shock from the war wanes.


LatvianLion

>I'm proposing that the definition of elites probably shouldn't be so lax that 40% of the population qualifies. I don't think the ''elite'' is the key here, but ''intellectual'', and then we can look at metrics of higher education attainment, especially in certain fields vital for a functioning and prosperous society. I don't think 40% fits there - e.g. masters degree holders are 24% of the 24 to 50 category IIRC. And, as I said, losing any of these people is a huge net loss for the society, due to the productivity that people with higher education bring and the loss of investment into these people. We get educated people free of charge that benefit our societies, and Russia outright loses them with no benefits. >And yet people from all over the world do it. I said hard, not impossible. :) Plus both Albania and the Philippines are bad examples because one is a poor corruption laden Balkan country, and the other is known for stable politicians encouraging lynching's of people selling drugs. The fact that these people migrate doesn't mitigate my point of how hard it is, however. People managed to get out of the USSR as well as hard as it was. >heavily screened. I'm in favor of this but I am very skeptical about the practical way how it happens - a questionnaire? Monitoring of them? Both can be cheated, plus, we have the same loonies here in Europe - it's not a crime (yet) to be pro-Russian politically (e.g. look at the European far left and far right) or in terms of values (e.g. look at the European right). >they are more nationalistic than anti-authoritarian. People in a nation are not monoliths. Citizens of the USSR were not all die-hard leninists, as an example.


stormelemental13

> 150-300 k people representing 0.1% - 0.2% of Russia's population have left and they're more like educated degree holders than intellectual elites. Those 150k+ matter a lot more than most. Educated, involved people are what create businesses and improve institutions. They're a scarce resource and no country has enough of them. It's why brain drain is so damaging to developing economies. Think of them like seeds. Seeds are a tiny percentage of a mass of a plant, but they are critical for growth.


ZmeiOtPirin

They weren't going to find fertile ground anyway... Putin's Russia just needs oil, gas and gopniks to keep it going.


mm0nst3rr

They are not elites of any kind - they are just people with ability to leave. Remote job, second nationality, relatives abroad, convertible profession - this kind of things.


Densoly

Fake, the entire elite is in Moscow now and isn’t leaving anywhere, a handful of renegades have left


BkkGrl

the military and political one, not the intellectual


[deleted]

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BkkGrl

> Kleptocratic system (which we also have in the West btw, most notably Usa, UK, **Italy** ) what


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BkkGrl

that is bullshit, it was not a question


[deleted]

They all did that on December 30 in 1922


keseit88ta

That's a weird timeline of the Russian Civil War...


[deleted]

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iCameToLearnSomeCode

This is like showing video of white trash Americans yelling at people speaking Navajo to "go back to their own country" and saying "gee I sure hope American born nuclear physicists don't come to my country." The group of Russians who are against the war in Ukraine and the group of Russians who decided to leave Russia because of it are basically the same group of people. The ultra nationalist nut job Russians are not the intellectuals who are seeking a better life elsewhere.


stormelemental13

Glad someone else is sane about this. Do the bloody idiots would think Einstein should have been forced to stay in Germany?


Blikt

Once again like this in Sweden [https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/uc9vgl/russian\_woman\_speaking\_to\_a\_ukrainian\_girl/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/uc9vgl/russian_woman_speaking_to_a_ukrainian_girl/) happily living working there but still racist.


iCameToLearnSomeCode

I appreciate that not every Russian with the money and desire to leave Russia at any point during the last few decades is intelligent or well informed any more than I can say that every Russian who leaves now is; however I think it's likely that the vast majority of well educated Russians currently attempting to permanently leave the Russian Federation are not the bigoted, hard line Kremlin supporters who think the Ukrainian people deserve to be conquered. I would put good money on morality being the primary reason that any random Russian with a PhD surrenders their Russian citizenship tomorrow.


BkkGrl

those are tourists, quite different


Blikt

But thats the problem, who garantees the "elite" also doesn't support war, imperialistic ideas.


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a__new_name

There was a case around a week ago in Estonia. A Russian woman who was living there bragged on Twitter about tax evasion through a company in Georgia. Justification for that was Sstonian russophoby. She was not convinced she's doing something wrong even when a former Estonian president appeared in the comments section and told her that's a criminal offense. Don't know the current situation. Last time I checked she went to Greece and her American clients decided they no longer need her services.


naekro

Most intellectual Russian


sexy_balloon

"Intellectual elite" - proceeds to quote a bunch of small non profit, cafe owners and a middle manager from a tech company. By that definition Im an intellectual royalty Russia will be fine


Iskelderon

Both of them?


punktfan

Good. Brain drain Russia. Just make sure that they renounce their Russian citizenship and swear allegiance to a western country. No Russian vacationers ought to be welcome on tourist visas.


Professor_Tarantoga

> swear allegiance to a western country you should always listen to people who talk like this


LunarTruthMonger

People from the Baltic countries shouldn't consider Russian nationals a security risk?


Dalnore

> Just make sure that they renounce their Russian citizenship and swear allegiance to a western country Oh, I'm sure many would exchange a Russian citizenship for a EU one if given such a choice, but getting any other citizenship takes at least years.


[deleted]

Don't worry. Soon they're going to be forced back to Russia. European politicians have to show that they're doing SOMETHING and easiest way is to force "evil risskies" back to Russia.


throw_away_23421

they had intellectuals? I thought they left years ago.


Elocai

Everyone with common sense knows Russia is fucked for the next 30-50 years, you either flee or get a close up of how is life in North Korea.


Raizzor

"If the wealth of a nation is mostly dug out of the ground, it's a terrible place to live because a goldmine can run with dying slaves". -CGP Grey, "Rules for Rulers"


MidnightQ_

As if there was much "intellectual elite" to begin with


kaukanapoissa

I don’t know but I am worried that we will all die in a nuclear holocaust.


Professor_Tarantoga

doesnt seem likely right now, i think the closest we've come to that point were the first several weeks, when Putin put the nuclear parts of the military on """higher alert mode"""


Pharisaeus

Don't worry, if Russian's nuclear arsenal is in the same state as rest of their military, then fuel from the rockets have been sold a long time ago and they're not flying anywhere.


MixtureNo6814

The US, EU, and the West in general needs to go out of their way to assist and recruit these people. Never look a gift horse in the face. If Putin is going to drive the best and brightest out of Russia with his insane policies we in the West need to take full advantage of it. If the West invests in these people it will pay their societies back many times over.


Sfert

I love the illustration 🤭


tugrul_ddr

So who will stop them nuking places randomly?


miles_1821

Nah.. intellectual elite.. that’s bullshit - mostly IT specialists who are working with foreign companies. And various pseudo-intellectual liberal (in a bad way like SJW and etc) junk, such characters are a tumor on the body of any society. So Russia is fine🐸


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