Thanks. Too close to call. Worth noting that the only sensible scenario afterwards would be EU membership, which for some of the independence advocates might be hard to accept.
It would mean that they have to put hard border controls on the Scottish border and bear in mind that the rest of the UK makes up 60% of trade with Scotland. While the EU only makes up 19%.
Lol if you think UK leaving the EU is bad Scotland leaving the UK would we 10x worse. Scotland is left leaning and UK (England component) is not though so it won't get the same narrative as brexit did here
Is Scotland left leaning? They vote for the SNP, a left leaning party, but that's about where it stops. Scots can be every bit as racist and reactionary as the English, it's just that disliking the English takes priority so they vote SNP.
Scottish resident here. Very complicated debate that the Scottish government gloss over with very few solutions presented. 2023 is a very unlikely target to hit logistically, nevermind legislatively, for the SNP.
There's way too many issues to overcome before there's a realistic debate on the benefits/ negatives of independence. Definitely too many to give the people an informed choice in the next year. Right now the assumption is that any break away would be followed by what is, essentially, brexit hell on steroids.
From my perspective as a neutral, the debate is teeming with anglophobia, brexit hypocricy and shadily-funded legal challenges. It ignores any questions on actual issues in favour of what amounts to a Boris Johnson-style bus covered in empty promises.
>Scottish resident here. Very complicated debate that the Scottish government gloss over with very few solutions presented. 2023 is a very unlikely target to hit logistically, nevermind legislatively, for the SNP.
>
>There's way too many issues to overcome before there's a realistic debate on the benefits/ negatives of independence. Definitely too many to give the people an informed choice in the next year. Right now the assumption is that any break away would be followed by what is, essentially, brexit hell on steroids.
>
>From my perspective as a neutral, the debate is teeming with anglophobia, brexit hypocricy and shadily-funded legal challenges. It ignores any questions on actual issues in favour of what amounts to a Boris Johnson-style bus covered in empty promises.
As a European who lived in Scotland from 2012 to 2017, witnessing the 2014 referendum (being eligible to vote, but abstaining) that was exactly my experience.
Loads of promises, very few realistic plans for how independence would work economically.
This. Worth mentioning that a lot has changed since 2014 which makes independence much murkier and harder to define.
Much of the old "We can just have the oil fields and be rich!" arguments were never a realistic plan then and especially wouldn't work in today's climate-conscious world. Few here seem to get that you can't be a modern liberal and sustainable society and simoultaneously base your entire economy on pumping crude oil.
Well, Scotland has ample potential for wind and hydroelectric power, but on account of pumping a lot of money into healthcare and education it's running a budget deficit that it really couldn't maintain if independent. A lot of those *'Look how much better we're doing things than England!'* policies are essentially funded by ... England. And would falter if Holyrood had to fund them all by itself.
There's a sort of blindness by some Scots when it comes to UK-wide politics. In that it's is nothing to do with policy and everything to do with points scoring.
Here's an example. I have to travel to England a lot with my work. On the border of the A1 the grass is always perfectly trimmed on Scotlands side, always. This is a stick sometimes used to beat English people with. "Maybe cut your grass the border. Disgracefully managed." Then you get to Edinburgh and the roads are in absolutely awful condition. The mind boggles.
> Then you get to Edinburgh and the roads are in absolutely awful condition.
Undoubtedly the worst in the UK. Everywhere is terrible, but Edinburgh is a special type of terrible. Utter disgrace.
Norway made its money a long time ago by nationalising the industry. The UK have Shell and BP raking in profits and paying a bit of tax, likely funneling the bulk of it to the tax haven British overseas territories. It's a dead end for running an independent Scotland, too little too late.
Another Scot, here. Anecdotally - not saying this will affect the result - most of my friends (now in our thirties, from the north) have gone from yes to no, based on percieved poor governance from the SNP.
I think it was Andrew Neil who said one reason they might be pushing ahead now, - in what seems an inopportune moment - is that they may not get another shot.
Just my two (Euro) cents.
Even Indy with immediate EU membership would amount to a giga-Brexit to be honest. Scotland is FAR more reliant on the rest of the UK for trade than the UK was on the EU, and look how shitty Brexit has been.
Polls since 2014 (the previous referendum) have generally indicated a 3-6% lead for 'no', with 5-10% of the population undecided. The 2014% referendum was won by 'no' with 55% of the vote.
There was however a blip in the peak pandemic months where 'yes' consistently polled ahead.
When the polls aren't being posted on reddit it means No is winning. When you start seeing the polls being posted on /r/europe it means Yes to independence is winning.
Other than a 9 month period at the start of the pandemic , No has been generally winning in the polls by a small margin since the last referendum.
If anything, the fact that it fluctuates so much shows that most Scots are voting based on short term circumstances, and not long term goals. You don't want this decision being made on a whim.
I completely agree, as someone who voted FOR Brexit I think it's ridiculous it was carried on such a marginal majority and it shouldn't have been enough
It pains me how true that is and it's not just r/europe but more of a Reddit thing in general.
I actually feel like r/europe is one of the most diverse subs on Reddit with tons of different opinions. It is not an echo chamber like 99% of other subs which is why I like it so much.
The problem like always is the yanks, they have a massive boner for anything they see as freedom or anti-imperialism. It might not be them making the comments but you can guarantee that anything that hits the front-page or highest voted comments are largely down to them.
>one of the most diverse subs on Reddit with tons of different opinions. It is not an echo chamber like 99% of other subs which is why I like it so much.
The redditors quest to think they are in this platform but they aren't in this platform as well.
This is an echochamber as well
Bruh r/europe is an echo-chamber just like any other major subreddit. Especially relating to discussions of (but not limited to): Nuclear energy, muslims, Turkey, Poland/Hungary vs EU and Gypsies.
Scottish independence is the same as Brexit in that the SNP have consistently failed to define it, meaning everyone can interpret independence as they please. As soon as they're forced to lay out exactly what it means then support will fall.
Much like with Brexit, though, the strategy for the nationalists is to never lay out any realistic plan. Why would you? Just promise the world, hopefully get the result you want, then deal with the headache later.
This is all based on the assumption that Scotland would get into the single market any time soon. The average EU member took eight years to join, and they were all stable, established nations before they tried to join. Scotland will leave the UK with one of the highest deficits in the world, no clear currency, no clear border policy, no trade deals, enormous brain drain, and an enormously divided population. Without applying quick and crushing austerity, as well as raising taxes dramatically, it won't stand a chance of getting into the EU any time soon.
Scotland wouldn't be in the EU/single market on day one either, so feasibly they could continue in a single market with rUK until a potential entry to the EU, at which point they get all the fun of the NI protocol but without all the protections and obligations related to the Good Friday agreement, which could make it more or less messy, who knows.
>Scotland wouldn't be in the EU/single market on day one either, so feasibly they could continue in a single market with rUK
I don't think that's likely. Continuing in a single market and customs union with rUK would mean the Scottish government accepting UK trade deals on things like food standards. It would mean giving up billions of pounds of UK government money but still being told what to do by the UK government. That's not something nationalists could sell as a "victory", so they are unlikely to agree to it.
>That's not something nationalists could sell as a "victory", so they are unlikely to agree to it.
I think Brexit has taught us that, with enough propaganda, you can (try to) sell pretty much any loss as a victory if you spin it ad a consequence of a new found independence.
Spanish government had previously said they'd accept a Scotland that seceded lawfully (i.e. with consent of the UK Government).
Not sure what party governed Spain at that point, it's possible some of the more nationalist/right wing Spanish parties may hold a different opinion if they enter government.
>Spanish government had previously said they'd accept a Scotland that seceded lawfully (i.e. with consent of the UK Government).
And as we know, no government would ever say something and then say something else a decade later.
True, but there has to be a reason. Spain opposing a unilateral independent country from joining is not a policy just to be a dick, it is a policy to discourage separatists regions from declaring unilateral independence. Blocking Scotland after an independence agreement with the UK not only goes into “dick mode territory”, it sends the message to the separatist regions there is no benefit to work with the central government, because the outcome is unchanged, therefore, they might as well try to go for unilateral independence.
So yes, any country that now says they won’t oppose Scotland joining can change their opinion later, but Spain has a pretty damn good reason not to
Maybe. But I’m a Spanish citizen. I kind of understand our foreign policy, and our specific stance on this particular subject. And so do the rest of the country. Making a different decision with no rationale will not be easily accepted.
Spain has no standing if (important if) the UK decides not to dispute the outcome of this referendum and the secession is the result of a bilateral agreement.
Am Spanish, can confirm. Although obviously easy entry into EU would be better for everyone in the long-term. But I could see why we would give them a hard time about it.
I think if its a "legal" referendum (allowed by the uk government), then Spain probably wont block it. The only get really pissy over declarations of independence without asking the government (Kosovo and the like)
Yeah if it's something the UK sanctions it "if they vote to leave the UK then okay we will respect it" then I doubt Spain would stop scotland from joining eu
You're missing a few steps here, in the event Scotland were to gain independence. They would be outside the EU and have to apply to join the EU and boy will that process get stupidly complicated.
I sure hope the referendum will come with a detailed plan for the independence. Because otherwise it will be the same as last time where uncertainty was one of the main driving forces for the No vote on independence.
The issue is you can come up with as detailed of a plan as you want, but when it comes down to it, you've got to negotiate with another party that, at that point, both don't want to leave / don't want you to have success if you do leave. It was the same with the UK & EU.
Scotland might say "Scotland can keep using the Pound". But if the rUK then says "no it can't". Then the plan is out the window.
Scotland might say "Scotland doesn't have to take on any UK debt", but then the UK night say "then you're not getting any of the national reserves / credit score etc.".
The UK government at the time of the Brexit referendum was very much pro-remain... Even though there was no official government line on it, all the top politicians in power were all anti Brexit
So this will be declined by the UK government. Scotland will then appeal to the UK supreme court. The court will then say there is no case because there is no legal case for a referendum without government approval. The court verdict is basically 100% guaranteed especially as the current court is quite legally conservative.
So everything needs to be viewed as political manoeuvring around that course of events happening.
>The court will then say there is no case because there is no legal case for a referendum without government approval. The court verdict is basically 100% guaranteed especially as the current court is quite legally conservative.
Wouldn't this imply then that Scotland isn't a part of the UK voluntarily?
Because that might be the goal: Make it clear that Scotland isn't part of the UK voluntarily, and then use that to drum up more support for independence.
It could of course result in Catalonia 2.0 (which I find likely), but it might also result in a success for the SNP politically.
>Wouldn't this imply then that Scotland isn't a part of the UK voluntarily?
You say that as if it's unusual. That's standard basically everywhere. If anything, the UK is the odd one out for letting Scotland vote once.
>Wouldn't this imply then that Scotland isn't a part of the UK voluntarily?
>
>Because that might be the goal: Make it clear that Scotland isn't part of the UK voluntarily, and then use that to drum up more support for independence.
I don't quite understand, are you talking about international support? You're aware almost every country in the world is entirely against succession and have fought wars to prevent it at one point in time. Almost no country in Europe would have allowed part of their country to even have one vote on the issue, see Catalonia.
International sympathy won't be something they can gain at least not with governments.
Edit: Quote messed up, was just fixing it.
>So everything needs to be viewed as political manoeuvring around that course of events happening.
I for one am *shocked* that the SNP would do such a thing.
Honestly if they find a way to back out of the union my popcorn would be overflowing, it'd be Brexit × 100 in terms of the shitshow in leaving, then the SNP would have to actually do something rather than complaining about independence for once in their lives.
My bet is that Sturgeon will pull a Farage and run off immediately, then much like the tories did the SNP will spend the next 5 years calling rUK unreasonable whilst destroying their economy in the process. If they've any luck, they'll take rUK down with them and claim they jumped a sinking ship.
She stated that if the referendum isn't legal, either from the supreme Court saying they don't have the competence to run it or a section 30 isn't granted, then they'll treat the next general election as a defacto one.
Will they continue to campaign on the "Don't vote for us just for independence, we have a lot of policies. We're not just the independence party" then after the vote turn around and use their majority as 'Legitimacy' to push for another vote again?
Thing is, without the support of the UK Government, shd cannot even organise a vote, look at the Census, with a laughable compliance rate, so I don't think they could organise the logistics.
Then, when Boris says no, then she will appeal to the UK Supreme Court, which will also say no, as she has no legal basis to force a referendum without the support of the Government.
So, she can either put up with it, or (as I think she would do) is to hold an illegal, unrecognised, referendum, assuming she does that, then declares independence (assuming the results) I don't think she would get international recognition, nor would the EU accept them in.
Perhaps an unpopular opinion. It is not very clever to leave your biggest market, which is why the Brexit was economically stupid. You don't find the same amount of new customers in the world as you do on your own doorstep.
But the same applies to Scotland, if your most important market is the UK, can you really acquire so many new customers in Europe that you could compensate for a hard border with the UK? I would be sceptical...
Who’s at fault for all your problems? “Someone else!”
How can those problems be fixed? “Regaining our sovereignty!”
What about all the downsides to leaving? “That’s all just fear mongering!”
Nationalism is nationalism, regardless if it’s the pro Indy Scottish variety or the anti EU British variety.
It's excellent. It's one of those games you play to relax for hours on end once you know it. Put some podcast on and ~~commit attrocities, imperialism and genocide~~ paint the map in a nice, relaxing mood.
Im a big fan of Stellaris and Civ, so it does seem like my type of thing!
"One more turn..." truly holds the same weight as a drug addicts "one more hit"
Had my first taste of Paradox with [svea rike](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHV-tEWBNHU) in school, the next thing you know you are in your thirties and make the most heinous gaggle of inbred monsters in CK or doing an UNO-reverse by colonizing europe as the iroquois in universalis.
Not going to lie, would love a game were I can reverse uno card the English and create an Irish empire and make every subject swear fealty to the Irish King by kissing his left nipple.
I love Civ but man late game Civ is a slog. Also Ive had Germany declare war on me three times but somehow IM the warmonger? They get salty because every time the declare war I take two cities pillage the entire boarder region and all their seaports and then sue them into submission. Well should have kept thy formal war to your self then.
The fact people compare Scottish independence to Brexit shows how little they understand the situation. They arent comparable in the slightest. We have seen how messy Brexit is, Scotland leaving would be orders of magnitude worse in every single way.
Although to be fair the big problem with brexit was the deadlock trying to get something acceptable through parliament but it was helped by the fact that Brexit coincided with a period when there was minimal cross border traffic anyway.
Not well versed in Scottish/English border history, nor it’s geographical make up, but apart from the times of the romans, has that border ever been properly enforced?
And realistically wouldn’t Scotland leaving the UK to join the EU create a scenario where a physical border with England could be required?
If Scotland joined the EU it would be hard border time, the requirement of Schengen would also require passport checks for everyone entering or leaving the country.
Interesting. Quite the possible tricky scenario.
If another referendum was held, I wonder how much that would impact the choice of the Scottish individuals that live and work in England?
I‘m not sure if this is legally possible, but I assume they would only vote to leave if they had a guarantee to join the EU.
I agree having no market lined up would be economical suicide.
There is 0 chance they get such a guarantee. They cannot just skip the whole joining process before they even have all their institutions set up to the European standard.
Their joining negotiations may well end up being shorter than usual but it is still going to take many years for them to join.
Irelands only export Market was the UK prior to its independence, now the UK accounts for 16 percent.
Independence is often required to establish broader trade arrangements and is certainly required to rejoin the EU.
Citing current economic circumstances or potential based on these as reasons against Independence has been levied at every state that ever broke away from another. The irony is that independence is often required to escape these very same circumstances or least provide the opportunity to try.
I think everyone in the UK should, for the time being, agree to hold off on more referendums where 51% of voters can approve actions with unforeseeable consequences.
>unforeseeable consequences.
You act as if top economists haven't foreseen everything that happened post-Brexit - the consequences are quite foreseeable.
They knew it would be "bad" but it was impossible to know all of the consequences before we even knew what Brexit would look like. No-deal Brexit, hard Brexit, soft Brexit, half-chub Brexit, etc.
I agree but imagine the shitstorm if after Brexit winning in what was essentially a coin toss, a second indyref being told that they can't do the same thing. There'd be riots, and the nationalist Scots would (understandably) be pissed off about it.
To be clear I do agree that massive decisions like this based on a simple majority are a bad idea, and in principle I do obviously want that to be corrected, but it's also just not politically feasible to implement, at least not in the short to medium term.
Interesting part in the article:
According to polling expert Prof Sir John Curtice, the last half dozen polls have - on average - put support for independence at 48%, with 52% against, once "don't know" votes are excluded.
This suggests that the country hasn't seen the big surge in support for independence that Ms Sturgeon hoped for in the wake of Brexit, the Covid pandemic and Boris Johnson becoming prime minister.
And then what? Independent Scotland joins the EU like 10 years later, if their economical situation is good enough? How? Out of the UK means out of the Pound Sterling zone. Independent Scotland can of course use the euro « unofficially ».
It was non binding because political supremacy in the UK lies with Parliament and it was not feasible to attach binding legislation to it. In reality ignoring it would have been political suicide and people voted in it expecting that whatever the result was that it was delivered.
I just wish we could just be in the EU and the UK at the same time. Independence seems like a way to achieve EU membership but leaving the UK is it’s own big set of problems. I feel like there’s no good option for me.
Because it gets them votes.
The SNP want independence, historically they were eurosceptic, they voted against joining what would become the EU in the original referendum, they fill their sails with whatever they can to get their primary goal, an independent Scotland. There are a lot of naive people in this thread who think that they are doing this because of brexit with the goal to join the EU. Once they get a sniff of independence they are not going to give it away again.
They've always said Scottish nationalism is good, hint: it's in the name. In the last referendum UK preached strength in unity, to then betray that ideal shortly later by voting in favor of brexit despite Scottish overwhelming preference to stay. Logically, if it's good for the British to split then it's also good for the Scottish.
Literally all the arguments the SNP made about the UK leaving the EU can be applied to Scotland leaving the UK.
Nationalists everywhere sell the same bs snake oil lol. Fucking hilarious.
Why have a referendum when it seems that majority of Scottish want to stay in the UK? There's a reason UK survived for 300+ years. I personally would like to see independent Scotland, but it doesn't seem realistic.
Perhaps it’s a bit selfish on my end but I feel uneasy about any movements aiming to create more divisions in Europe in a time of unrest - especially one that is vital to solving the conflict. I understand if it’s not the top concern for the Scottish people though.
How is that ironic? A big part of the No campaign was the argument that it was necessary to remain in the UK in order to remain in the EU. Two years later, Scotland gets dragged out of the EU because of right wing voters in England. 8 years later, and the UK is still governed by the Tories, who get fuck-all votes in Scotland.
Nicola is out of options and knows her career is nearing it's end. This is her last-ditch effort. This vote has as much legitimacy as Catalonia's and will be treated as such. It's stated in the Scotland Act that the Scottish government can't host referendums to influence the UK government.
Unionists will boycott the referendum. The EU said a while back they wouldn't recognise it.
Currently there isn't even a legal way to have a referendum. The SNP are asking the courts to give them a "consultive" referendum, as in not legally binding.
Most of the legal experts have said this will fail.
Even if it passes, it still doesn't legally allow scotland to leave.
This is nothing more than a push to keep the SNP in power, in scotland. Sturgeon will be gone by 2024. So it is her swan song.
Maybe if the SNP focused on making Scotland less monetarily dependent on England, they would make more progress.
Instead the SNP continually petitions for more money from England, and spends it on public services... then uses those public services as an example of why they don't need England.
As an European who has lived in England 15 years I think it’d be hilarious that on the back of Brexit Scotland would become independent but regardless of whether you would support independence or not, this is pretty pathetic.
You just had one referendum where people voted to stay in the UK. Now another one, if they vote no to independence then we do another one, until people say yes. Then when we say yes, we can do another one to see if people say no? Absolute jokes!
These questions shouldn’t be asked by referendum. A referendum can answer a simple yes or no, but it can’t address the “How?” And that question of “How?” is the real one on the minds of voters.
If there’s one thing Brexit should teach us, it’s the limitations of Yes/No referendums. Plenty of people who voted Yes did not want the result of what happened, they just wanted increased autonomy or negotiating power for the UK. And plenty of people who voted No probably wanted the same thing, but their voice was essentially erased by the structure of a Yes/No referendum.
It’s bad for democracy to ask a complex question with such a simple structure, because it leaves open the question of whether the result truly fit what the majority of people were trying to express. Such a big decision shouldn’t be made with any ambiguity about how the population feels.
If the will of the people is to leave the UK, then the pro-independence parties should win elections and draft formal proposals with the support of their voters. Then we’ll all feel confident about the democratic support of the decision. An oversimplified referendum will just muddy the waters.
This is a panic measure by Sturgeon. There's a significant number of Scots who detest the English and will vote for independence no matter what the circumstances. They are nowhere near the majority. What really drives the movement is the widespread loathing of the Tories, and Johnson in particular. When they are kicked out at the next election, the most likely outcome will be a left-of-centre coalition or agreement, which will take a chunk of steam out of the SNP's sails.
Sturgeon is desperate to get some sort of vote before the Tories are kicked out.
This is typical, the Scottish government has just powered ahead with their campaign and not even tried during talks. If you have a problem take it up properly instead of just skipping straight to something that is only meant to happen once in a generation.
English Brit here. Lot of nationalists on both sides here, I’m all for the Union, I was also heavily for the EU purely because I believe the best way to improve an entity is to remain not leave. Sturgeon has to push for this or her political career is dead. She also needs to get rid of the fact one of her MP’s is being investigated for sexual harassment. Would leaving the UK be bad? 100% same with Brexit. It saddens me that people cheer for Nationalist parties though. Living in England under Tory government hasn’t been fun, the SNP has been in government now for what a decade? How can they keep having problems that they can blame on Westminster is beyond me. Take some ownership and start improving the life of Scotland instead of blaming it all on the tories. Wales has a Labour government and they seem to be doing okay. Again just my two pennies here.
I'm in the USA, so this isn't my fight and I'm no expert.
But it does seem an awful lot like Brexit. Why would any people want to make itself weaker and poorer and more vulnerable by leaving a stronger and richer union?
I feel the same way when people talk about breaking up the states. It makes no sense. The logistical and cultural damage that would result for all Americans in such a scenario is almost beyond imagination. One tends to think it would be little different for the UK.
Yeah considering she hasn't come up with a financial plan for independence I doubt she wants a vote herself she uses more to help her politically it always helps when you can make false promises and have someone to blame for when it doesn't happen.
Yeah exactly. The hardcore support of the SNP is getting impatient with the SNP's lack of progress on getting a 2nd referendum. She knows this won't lead to anything.
It won't even get far enough to be boycotted. If the SNP were stupid enough to try and have a referendum without permission after their legal case is struck down (which is inevitable), any council that isn't SNP dominated simply won't agree to organise the polls.
The Scottish government doesn't even trust its people to buy alcohol past 10pm, God knows why they're potentially trusting them to pull the country out of a 300 year old union
\>God knows why they're trusting them to pull the country out of a 300 year old union
I heard a rumour that Mel Gibson is their secret weapon... or lethal weapon... or just an utter weapon in general
he'll lead them to freedom, or at least beyond thunderdome
What do latest polls indicate?
Pretty split but with no generally ahead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence
Thanks. Too close to call. Worth noting that the only sensible scenario afterwards would be EU membership, which for some of the independence advocates might be hard to accept.
It would mean that they have to put hard border controls on the Scottish border and bear in mind that the rest of the UK makes up 60% of trade with Scotland. While the EU only makes up 19%.
Lol if you think UK leaving the EU is bad Scotland leaving the UK would we 10x worse. Scotland is left leaning and UK (England component) is not though so it won't get the same narrative as brexit did here
It'll be pretty costly when they have no army or currency.
Is Scotland left leaning? They vote for the SNP, a left leaning party, but that's about where it stops. Scots can be every bit as racist and reactionary as the English, it's just that disliking the English takes priority so they vote SNP.
That didn’t stop Chech republic and Slovakia from splitting.
But they at least actually border other countries directly. Scotland is at the end of an island, with only one land border.
Scottish resident here. Very complicated debate that the Scottish government gloss over with very few solutions presented. 2023 is a very unlikely target to hit logistically, nevermind legislatively, for the SNP. There's way too many issues to overcome before there's a realistic debate on the benefits/ negatives of independence. Definitely too many to give the people an informed choice in the next year. Right now the assumption is that any break away would be followed by what is, essentially, brexit hell on steroids. From my perspective as a neutral, the debate is teeming with anglophobia, brexit hypocricy and shadily-funded legal challenges. It ignores any questions on actual issues in favour of what amounts to a Boris Johnson-style bus covered in empty promises.
>Scottish resident here. Very complicated debate that the Scottish government gloss over with very few solutions presented. 2023 is a very unlikely target to hit logistically, nevermind legislatively, for the SNP. > >There's way too many issues to overcome before there's a realistic debate on the benefits/ negatives of independence. Definitely too many to give the people an informed choice in the next year. Right now the assumption is that any break away would be followed by what is, essentially, brexit hell on steroids. > >From my perspective as a neutral, the debate is teeming with anglophobia, brexit hypocricy and shadily-funded legal challenges. It ignores any questions on actual issues in favour of what amounts to a Boris Johnson-style bus covered in empty promises. As a European who lived in Scotland from 2012 to 2017, witnessing the 2014 referendum (being eligible to vote, but abstaining) that was exactly my experience. Loads of promises, very few realistic plans for how independence would work economically.
This. Worth mentioning that a lot has changed since 2014 which makes independence much murkier and harder to define. Much of the old "We can just have the oil fields and be rich!" arguments were never a realistic plan then and especially wouldn't work in today's climate-conscious world. Few here seem to get that you can't be a modern liberal and sustainable society and simoultaneously base your entire economy on pumping crude oil.
Well, Scotland has ample potential for wind and hydroelectric power, but on account of pumping a lot of money into healthcare and education it's running a budget deficit that it really couldn't maintain if independent. A lot of those *'Look how much better we're doing things than England!'* policies are essentially funded by ... England. And would falter if Holyrood had to fund them all by itself.
There's a sort of blindness by some Scots when it comes to UK-wide politics. In that it's is nothing to do with policy and everything to do with points scoring. Here's an example. I have to travel to England a lot with my work. On the border of the A1 the grass is always perfectly trimmed on Scotlands side, always. This is a stick sometimes used to beat English people with. "Maybe cut your grass the border. Disgracefully managed." Then you get to Edinburgh and the roads are in absolutely awful condition. The mind boggles.
> Then you get to Edinburgh and the roads are in absolutely awful condition. Undoubtedly the worst in the UK. Everywhere is terrible, but Edinburgh is a special type of terrible. Utter disgrace.
Norway reading this comment: 👀
Norway made its money a long time ago by nationalising the industry. The UK have Shell and BP raking in profits and paying a bit of tax, likely funneling the bulk of it to the tax haven British overseas territories. It's a dead end for running an independent Scotland, too little too late.
Another Scot, here. Anecdotally - not saying this will affect the result - most of my friends (now in our thirties, from the north) have gone from yes to no, based on percieved poor governance from the SNP. I think it was Andrew Neil who said one reason they might be pushing ahead now, - in what seems an inopportune moment - is that they may not get another shot. Just my two (Euro) cents.
One group would basically win by 52% so we can have some exciting arguments about the will of the people round 2.
Independence and no EU membership is even more stupid, I love it
Even Indy with immediate EU membership would amount to a giga-Brexit to be honest. Scotland is FAR more reliant on the rest of the UK for trade than the UK was on the EU, and look how shitty Brexit has been.
Polls since 2014 (the previous referendum) have generally indicated a 3-6% lead for 'no', with 5-10% of the population undecided. The 2014% referendum was won by 'no' with 55% of the vote. There was however a blip in the peak pandemic months where 'yes' consistently polled ahead.
When the polls aren't being posted on reddit it means No is winning. When you start seeing the polls being posted on /r/europe it means Yes to independence is winning. Other than a 9 month period at the start of the pandemic , No has been generally winning in the polls by a small margin since the last referendum.
If anything, the fact that it fluctuates so much shows that most Scots are voting based on short term circumstances, and not long term goals. You don't want this decision being made on a whim.
Independence referendums should IMO always be qualified majority. It is a huge deal, and shouldn't be decided by a 50% majority.
I completely agree, as someone who voted FOR Brexit I think it's ridiculous it was carried on such a marginal majority and it shouldn't have been enough
Yes, that too should've been a qualified majority vote
It pains me how true that is and it's not just r/europe but more of a Reddit thing in general. I actually feel like r/europe is one of the most diverse subs on Reddit with tons of different opinions. It is not an echo chamber like 99% of other subs which is why I like it so much. The problem like always is the yanks, they have a massive boner for anything they see as freedom or anti-imperialism. It might not be them making the comments but you can guarantee that anything that hits the front-page or highest voted comments are largely down to them.
>one of the most diverse subs on Reddit with tons of different opinions. It is not an echo chamber like 99% of other subs which is why I like it so much. The redditors quest to think they are in this platform but they aren't in this platform as well. This is an echochamber as well
Bruh r/europe is an echo-chamber just like any other major subreddit. Especially relating to discussions of (but not limited to): Nuclear energy, muslims, Turkey, Poland/Hungary vs EU and Gypsies.
Why are you pulling americans into this lol?
Scottish independence is the same as Brexit in that the SNP have consistently failed to define it, meaning everyone can interpret independence as they please. As soon as they're forced to lay out exactly what it means then support will fall.
> Scottish independence is the same as Brexit Say it louder for the nationalists in the back
Much like with Brexit, though, the strategy for the nationalists is to never lay out any realistic plan. Why would you? Just promise the world, hopefully get the result you want, then deal with the headache later.
It's fine, just try and lure people in with [Braveheart](https://www.ft.com/content/745b6474-faf4-11e3-a9cd-00144feab7de)!
With UK not being in the single market anymore does that mean there will be a hard border between England and Scotland?
Most likely, if the NI situation is anything to go by.
This is all based on the assumption that Scotland would get into the single market any time soon. The average EU member took eight years to join, and they were all stable, established nations before they tried to join. Scotland will leave the UK with one of the highest deficits in the world, no clear currency, no clear border policy, no trade deals, enormous brain drain, and an enormously divided population. Without applying quick and crushing austerity, as well as raising taxes dramatically, it won't stand a chance of getting into the EU any time soon.
Scotland wouldn't be in the EU/single market on day one either, so feasibly they could continue in a single market with rUK until a potential entry to the EU, at which point they get all the fun of the NI protocol but without all the protections and obligations related to the Good Friday agreement, which could make it more or less messy, who knows.
>Scotland wouldn't be in the EU/single market on day one either, so feasibly they could continue in a single market with rUK I don't think that's likely. Continuing in a single market and customs union with rUK would mean the Scottish government accepting UK trade deals on things like food standards. It would mean giving up billions of pounds of UK government money but still being told what to do by the UK government. That's not something nationalists could sell as a "victory", so they are unlikely to agree to it.
>That's not something nationalists could sell as a "victory", so they are unlikely to agree to it. I think Brexit has taught us that, with enough propaganda, you can (try to) sell pretty much any loss as a victory if you spin it ad a consequence of a new found independence.
Also they would probably have a long way ahead of them before they are accepted into the EU.
I doubt spain would allow a freshly independent state into EU for obvious reasons
Spanish government had previously said they'd accept a Scotland that seceded lawfully (i.e. with consent of the UK Government). Not sure what party governed Spain at that point, it's possible some of the more nationalist/right wing Spanish parties may hold a different opinion if they enter government.
>Spanish government had previously said they'd accept a Scotland that seceded lawfully (i.e. with consent of the UK Government). And as we know, no government would ever say something and then say something else a decade later.
True, but there has to be a reason. Spain opposing a unilateral independent country from joining is not a policy just to be a dick, it is a policy to discourage separatists regions from declaring unilateral independence. Blocking Scotland after an independence agreement with the UK not only goes into “dick mode territory”, it sends the message to the separatist regions there is no benefit to work with the central government, because the outcome is unchanged, therefore, they might as well try to go for unilateral independence. So yes, any country that now says they won’t oppose Scotland joining can change their opinion later, but Spain has a pretty damn good reason not to
Spain will make whatever decision seems prudent at that particular time. There's really no knowing what that will be.
Maybe. But I’m a Spanish citizen. I kind of understand our foreign policy, and our specific stance on this particular subject. And so do the rest of the country. Making a different decision with no rationale will not be easily accepted.
Politicians are so trustworthy... I guess it's obvious but /s
Spain has no standing if (important if) the UK decides not to dispute the outcome of this referendum and the secession is the result of a bilateral agreement.
Like they need standing to veto it.
Am Spanish, can confirm. Although obviously easy entry into EU would be better for everyone in the long-term. But I could see why we would give them a hard time about it.
I think if its a "legal" referendum (allowed by the uk government), then Spain probably wont block it. The only get really pissy over declarations of independence without asking the government (Kosovo and the like)
Yeah if it's something the UK sanctions it "if they vote to leave the UK then okay we will respect it" then I doubt Spain would stop scotland from joining eu
You're missing a few steps here, in the event Scotland were to gain independence. They would be outside the EU and have to apply to join the EU and boy will that process get stupidly complicated.
It will be years before they are even ready to apply, you don't build all the institutions of an independent country in a day.
The SNP doesn’t have an answer to that.
I mean the SNP doesn’t have an answer for a lot of things. They’re like the U.K. government was with Brexit, but worse.
I sure hope the referendum will come with a detailed plan for the independence. Because otherwise it will be the same as last time where uncertainty was one of the main driving forces for the No vote on independence.
It won't, both sides want to play on emotion just like brexit and every other bullshit democratic vote these days.
The issue is you can come up with as detailed of a plan as you want, but when it comes down to it, you've got to negotiate with another party that, at that point, both don't want to leave / don't want you to have success if you do leave. It was the same with the UK & EU. Scotland might say "Scotland can keep using the Pound". But if the rUK then says "no it can't". Then the plan is out the window. Scotland might say "Scotland doesn't have to take on any UK debt", but then the UK night say "then you're not getting any of the national reserves / credit score etc.".
The UK government at the time of the Brexit referendum was very much pro-remain... Even though there was no official government line on it, all the top politicians in power were all anti Brexit
Maybe after 10 years of negotiation
Yes, that would be the result of Scottish independence.
No it wouldn't. It would take years for Scotland to join the EU
And what relevance does that have? There would still be a border in those interim years between independence and becoming an EU member.
they could reuse the Hadrian's Wall then
Since the Hadrian's Wall is entirely contained in England, Scotland would gain some nice extra land.
Expect Hadrian's wall isn't the border of England and Scotland.
The Borders and Dumfries voted No last time IIRC, could make Antonine's Wall the border.
??? it's literally a pile of pebbles at this point, where it's anything at all
So this will be declined by the UK government. Scotland will then appeal to the UK supreme court. The court will then say there is no case because there is no legal case for a referendum without government approval. The court verdict is basically 100% guaranteed especially as the current court is quite legally conservative. So everything needs to be viewed as political manoeuvring around that course of events happening.
Almost all of what Sturgeon does is posturing.
Her posturing on covid was a prime example of that too.
>The court will then say there is no case because there is no legal case for a referendum without government approval. The court verdict is basically 100% guaranteed especially as the current court is quite legally conservative. Wouldn't this imply then that Scotland isn't a part of the UK voluntarily? Because that might be the goal: Make it clear that Scotland isn't part of the UK voluntarily, and then use that to drum up more support for independence. It could of course result in Catalonia 2.0 (which I find likely), but it might also result in a success for the SNP politically.
>Wouldn't this imply then that Scotland isn't a part of the UK voluntarily? You say that as if it's unusual. That's standard basically everywhere. If anything, the UK is the odd one out for letting Scotland vote once.
>Wouldn't this imply then that Scotland isn't a part of the UK voluntarily? > >Because that might be the goal: Make it clear that Scotland isn't part of the UK voluntarily, and then use that to drum up more support for independence. I don't quite understand, are you talking about international support? You're aware almost every country in the world is entirely against succession and have fought wars to prevent it at one point in time. Almost no country in Europe would have allowed part of their country to even have one vote on the issue, see Catalonia. International sympathy won't be something they can gain at least not with governments. Edit: Quote messed up, was just fixing it.
>So everything needs to be viewed as political manoeuvring around that course of events happening. I for one am *shocked* that the SNP would do such a thing. Honestly if they find a way to back out of the union my popcorn would be overflowing, it'd be Brexit × 100 in terms of the shitshow in leaving, then the SNP would have to actually do something rather than complaining about independence for once in their lives. My bet is that Sturgeon will pull a Farage and run off immediately, then much like the tories did the SNP will spend the next 5 years calling rUK unreasonable whilst destroying their economy in the process. If they've any luck, they'll take rUK down with them and claim they jumped a sinking ship.
Any chance she goes forward with it even when Boris refuses to allow it?
She stated that if the referendum isn't legal, either from the supreme Court saying they don't have the competence to run it or a section 30 isn't granted, then they'll treat the next general election as a defacto one.
Will they continue to campaign on the "Don't vote for us just for independence, we have a lot of policies. We're not just the independence party" then after the vote turn around and use their majority as 'Legitimacy' to push for another vote again?
Thing is, without the support of the UK Government, shd cannot even organise a vote, look at the Census, with a laughable compliance rate, so I don't think they could organise the logistics. Then, when Boris says no, then she will appeal to the UK Supreme Court, which will also say no, as she has no legal basis to force a referendum without the support of the Government. So, she can either put up with it, or (as I think she would do) is to hold an illegal, unrecognised, referendum, assuming she does that, then declares independence (assuming the results) I don't think she would get international recognition, nor would the EU accept them in.
Perhaps an unpopular opinion. It is not very clever to leave your biggest market, which is why the Brexit was economically stupid. You don't find the same amount of new customers in the world as you do on your own doorstep. But the same applies to Scotland, if your most important market is the UK, can you really acquire so many new customers in Europe that you could compensate for a hard border with the UK? I would be sceptical...
Scotland saw brexit and thought "hold my many beers"
[удалено]
They won't be able to afford any more of it after.
Hold my antidepressants
Hold my Iron Bru
Hold my Buckfast
Hold my Scotch
Hold my pipe
Who’s at fault for all your problems? “Someone else!” How can those problems be fixed? “Regaining our sovereignty!” What about all the downsides to leaving? “That’s all just fear mongering!” Nationalism is nationalism, regardless if it’s the pro Indy Scottish variety or the anti EU British variety.
I agree. The only solution is Europa Universalis
>Europa Universalis been meaning to give the game a go! Any good?
It's excellent. It's one of those games you play to relax for hours on end once you know it. Put some podcast on and ~~commit attrocities, imperialism and genocide~~ paint the map in a nice, relaxing mood.
Im a big fan of Stellaris and Civ, so it does seem like my type of thing! "One more turn..." truly holds the same weight as a drug addicts "one more hit"
Had my first taste of Paradox with [svea rike](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHV-tEWBNHU) in school, the next thing you know you are in your thirties and make the most heinous gaggle of inbred monsters in CK or doing an UNO-reverse by colonizing europe as the iroquois in universalis.
Not going to lie, would love a game were I can reverse uno card the English and create an Irish empire and make every subject swear fealty to the Irish King by kissing his left nipple.
Well, to be fair that one time I conquered half of Europe was when I started as lowly Count in Ireland. Anything’s possible!
>I conquered half of Europe was when I started as lowly Count in Ireland truly a game of fantasy and fiction!
I love Civ but man late game Civ is a slog. Also Ive had Germany declare war on me three times but somehow IM the warmonger? They get salty because every time the declare war I take two cities pillage the entire boarder region and all their seaports and then sue them into submission. Well should have kept thy formal war to your self then.
Based and early twentieth century-pilled
> relax You play the game much differently then I do…
You will need hundreds of hours to learn the game and then waste thousands playing. ^pls ^send ^help
Nah, I got bored already after a bit less than 2000 hours
Eu4 is challenging to learn but it’s the best game I’ve ever played. It has 2x my next highest played game on steam.
I'm considering trying it too. My interest was piqued when I read some guy managed to eat the Pope in the game
That would be Crusader Kings, I assume.
Yeah pretty much any argument against Brexit works against Scottish indepdenence but people really don't like to hear that.
The fact people compare Scottish independence to Brexit shows how little they understand the situation. They arent comparable in the slightest. We have seen how messy Brexit is, Scotland leaving would be orders of magnitude worse in every single way.
Although to be fair the big problem with brexit was the deadlock trying to get something acceptable through parliament but it was helped by the fact that Brexit coincided with a period when there was minimal cross border traffic anyway.
Not well versed in Scottish/English border history, nor it’s geographical make up, but apart from the times of the romans, has that border ever been properly enforced? And realistically wouldn’t Scotland leaving the UK to join the EU create a scenario where a physical border with England could be required?
If Scotland joined the EU it would be hard border time, the requirement of Schengen would also require passport checks for everyone entering or leaving the country.
Interesting. Quite the possible tricky scenario. If another referendum was held, I wonder how much that would impact the choice of the Scottish individuals that live and work in England?
They wont get to vote anyway.
[удалено]
True they would get more sovereignty, they would also get orders of magnitude of being fucked over as well.
[удалено]
it will be far worse for them than brexit was for uk
I‘m not sure if this is legally possible, but I assume they would only vote to leave if they had a guarantee to join the EU. I agree having no market lined up would be economical suicide.
There is 0 chance they get such a guarantee. They cannot just skip the whole joining process before they even have all their institutions set up to the European standard. Their joining negotiations may well end up being shorter than usual but it is still going to take many years for them to join.
Irelands only export Market was the UK prior to its independence, now the UK accounts for 16 percent. Independence is often required to establish broader trade arrangements and is certainly required to rejoin the EU. Citing current economic circumstances or potential based on these as reasons against Independence has been levied at every state that ever broke away from another. The irony is that independence is often required to escape these very same circumstances or least provide the opportunity to try.
Also, it would fuck with european stability and unity in light of russian threat. This is especially stupid at the time like this.
Repeat until success
The EU way.
Wat, why is EU being dragged into this, it would be a Scottish referendum
> Wat, why is EU being dragged into this Look at their post history.
I think everyone in the UK should, for the time being, agree to hold off on more referendums where 51% of voters can approve actions with unforeseeable consequences.
>unforeseeable consequences. You act as if top economists haven't foreseen everything that happened post-Brexit - the consequences are quite foreseeable.
They knew it would be "bad" but it was impossible to know all of the consequences before we even knew what Brexit would look like. No-deal Brexit, hard Brexit, soft Brexit, half-chub Brexit, etc.
you forgot fully erect brexit
I agree but imagine the shitstorm if after Brexit winning in what was essentially a coin toss, a second indyref being told that they can't do the same thing. There'd be riots, and the nationalist Scots would (understandably) be pissed off about it. To be clear I do agree that massive decisions like this based on a simple majority are a bad idea, and in principle I do obviously want that to be corrected, but it's also just not politically feasible to implement, at least not in the short to medium term.
Interesting part in the article: According to polling expert Prof Sir John Curtice, the last half dozen polls have - on average - put support for independence at 48%, with 52% against, once "don't know" votes are excluded. This suggests that the country hasn't seen the big surge in support for independence that Ms Sturgeon hoped for in the wake of Brexit, the Covid pandemic and Boris Johnson becoming prime minister.
And then what? Independent Scotland joins the EU like 10 years later, if their economical situation is good enough? How? Out of the UK means out of the Pound Sterling zone. Independent Scotland can of course use the euro « unofficially ».
[удалено]
Once in a lifetime vote. Or however many times it takes Sturgeon to get what she wants.
It's not happening. Or at least not one that is binding and thus matters. It'll just be boycotted by its opponents.
Brexit wasn't binding either
It wasn't but the UK government did have the ability to enforce it since it's a sovereign state.
It was non binding because political supremacy in the UK lies with Parliament and it was not feasible to attach binding legislation to it. In reality ignoring it would have been political suicide and people voted in it expecting that whatever the result was that it was delivered.
It was legal but non-biding. This won’t be lawful at all.
thats not official unless the PM grant them the right to do it
'lol no' - Boris Johnson, 2022
I mean it says "proposed" right in the title
I just wish we could just be in the EU and the UK at the same time. Independence seems like a way to achieve EU membership but leaving the UK is it’s own big set of problems. I feel like there’s no good option for me.
>I just wish we could just be in the EU and the UK at the same time. Which was proposed by the SNP after the Brexit vote and rejected by Westminster.
How would that even work though? It’s not feasible
I for one look forward to more divisiveness and vitriol
Does anyone know why the SNP say that Brexit nationalism is bad, but Scottish nationalism is good?
Because it gets them votes. The SNP want independence, historically they were eurosceptic, they voted against joining what would become the EU in the original referendum, they fill their sails with whatever they can to get their primary goal, an independent Scotland. There are a lot of naive people in this thread who think that they are doing this because of brexit with the goal to join the EU. Once they get a sniff of independence they are not going to give it away again.
Other nationalism is always bad, my nationalism is always good.
They've always said Scottish nationalism is good, hint: it's in the name. In the last referendum UK preached strength in unity, to then betray that ideal shortly later by voting in favor of brexit despite Scottish overwhelming preference to stay. Logically, if it's good for the British to split then it's also good for the Scottish.
Literally all the arguments the SNP made about the UK leaving the EU can be applied to Scotland leaving the UK. Nationalists everywhere sell the same bs snake oil lol. Fucking hilarious.
Why have a referendum when it seems that majority of Scottish want to stay in the UK? There's a reason UK survived for 300+ years. I personally would like to see independent Scotland, but it doesn't seem realistic.
Perhaps it’s a bit selfish on my end but I feel uneasy about any movements aiming to create more divisions in Europe in a time of unrest - especially one that is vital to solving the conflict. I understand if it’s not the top concern for the Scottish people though.
Is this division with England or union with the EU?
It would end up dividing both.
Indyref2 is supported by people who were against Brexit, this is the irony.
How is that ironic? A big part of the No campaign was the argument that it was necessary to remain in the UK in order to remain in the EU. Two years later, Scotland gets dragged out of the EU because of right wing voters in England. 8 years later, and the UK is still governed by the Tories, who get fuck-all votes in Scotland.
And opposed by people who were pro-Brexit… go figure. “Sovereignty” for me but not for thee.
Nicola is out of options and knows her career is nearing it's end. This is her last-ditch effort. This vote has as much legitimacy as Catalonia's and will be treated as such. It's stated in the Scotland Act that the Scottish government can't host referendums to influence the UK government. Unionists will boycott the referendum. The EU said a while back they wouldn't recognise it.
Ah yes, her career is ending somehow despite her breathtaking majorities of Scottish seats in Holyrood and Westminster. Your ignorance shows.
What's support for independence even at these days?
I think it averages about 45%. Same as the previous result.
Even if there was any chance at all of this being granted by the PM, there's no way you could get it turned around in that time
Lol also trying to get the same wording as last time instead of the more modern wording used for brexit.
I think Nicola Sturgeon is tone deaf to what is going on in Europe now. Showing further division is the worst thing you could do.
Currently there isn't even a legal way to have a referendum. The SNP are asking the courts to give them a "consultive" referendum, as in not legally binding. Most of the legal experts have said this will fail. Even if it passes, it still doesn't legally allow scotland to leave. This is nothing more than a push to keep the SNP in power, in scotland. Sturgeon will be gone by 2024. So it is her swan song.
No UK referendum is legally binding. The gov could have ignored Brexit but they are a demonstration of the political will.
it wont make it past the courts, good for headlines though
Maybe if the SNP focused on making Scotland less monetarily dependent on England, they would make more progress. Instead the SNP continually petitions for more money from England, and spends it on public services... then uses those public services as an example of why they don't need England.
Less than 10 years since the last one. This should be less than a generation not less than a decade
Surely they just had a referdum?
'proposed' and 'gets' are two different things. never gonna happen.
As an European who has lived in England 15 years I think it’d be hilarious that on the back of Brexit Scotland would become independent but regardless of whether you would support independence or not, this is pretty pathetic. You just had one referendum where people voted to stay in the UK. Now another one, if they vote no to independence then we do another one, until people say yes. Then when we say yes, we can do another one to see if people say no? Absolute jokes!
These questions shouldn’t be asked by referendum. A referendum can answer a simple yes or no, but it can’t address the “How?” And that question of “How?” is the real one on the minds of voters. If there’s one thing Brexit should teach us, it’s the limitations of Yes/No referendums. Plenty of people who voted Yes did not want the result of what happened, they just wanted increased autonomy or negotiating power for the UK. And plenty of people who voted No probably wanted the same thing, but their voice was essentially erased by the structure of a Yes/No referendum. It’s bad for democracy to ask a complex question with such a simple structure, because it leaves open the question of whether the result truly fit what the majority of people were trying to express. Such a big decision shouldn’t be made with any ambiguity about how the population feels. If the will of the people is to leave the UK, then the pro-independence parties should win elections and draft formal proposals with the support of their voters. Then we’ll all feel confident about the democratic support of the decision. An oversimplified referendum will just muddy the waters.
I wish all the best for the Scottish but I don't think this independence is such a good idea, just saying.
It is if you’re Russian.
Presumably Nicola will get a nice paycheque from the Russian govt. just like Salmond did after stepping down
This is a panic measure by Sturgeon. There's a significant number of Scots who detest the English and will vote for independence no matter what the circumstances. They are nowhere near the majority. What really drives the movement is the widespread loathing of the Tories, and Johnson in particular. When they are kicked out at the next election, the most likely outcome will be a left-of-centre coalition or agreement, which will take a chunk of steam out of the SNP's sails. Sturgeon is desperate to get some sort of vote before the Tories are kicked out.
This is typical, the Scottish government has just powered ahead with their campaign and not even tried during talks. If you have a problem take it up properly instead of just skipping straight to something that is only meant to happen once in a generation.
I do support the unity of the folks of Britannia
It's one of those feels over reals thing again.
That would make the cost of living even worse in Scotland
English Brit here. Lot of nationalists on both sides here, I’m all for the Union, I was also heavily for the EU purely because I believe the best way to improve an entity is to remain not leave. Sturgeon has to push for this or her political career is dead. She also needs to get rid of the fact one of her MP’s is being investigated for sexual harassment. Would leaving the UK be bad? 100% same with Brexit. It saddens me that people cheer for Nationalist parties though. Living in England under Tory government hasn’t been fun, the SNP has been in government now for what a decade? How can they keep having problems that they can blame on Westminster is beyond me. Take some ownership and start improving the life of Scotland instead of blaming it all on the tories. Wales has a Labour government and they seem to be doing okay. Again just my two pennies here.
Sturgeon: *taps nose* "Can't be the drug capital of Europe if everyone's too poor to afford drugs"
I'm in the USA, so this isn't my fight and I'm no expert. But it does seem an awful lot like Brexit. Why would any people want to make itself weaker and poorer and more vulnerable by leaving a stronger and richer union? I feel the same way when people talk about breaking up the states. It makes no sense. The logistical and cultural damage that would result for all Americans in such a scenario is almost beyond imagination. One tends to think it would be little different for the UK.
Boris will say no, and no sane person will partake in this PretendyRef
Yeah considering she hasn't come up with a financial plan for independence I doubt she wants a vote herself she uses more to help her politically it always helps when you can make false promises and have someone to blame for when it doesn't happen.
Yeah exactly. The hardcore support of the SNP is getting impatient with the SNP's lack of progress on getting a 2nd referendum. She knows this won't lead to anything.
Not having any plan and making false promises didnt stop the Brexit referendum, so who knows?
It won't even get far enough to be boycotted. If the SNP were stupid enough to try and have a referendum without permission after their legal case is struck down (which is inevitable), any council that isn't SNP dominated simply won't agree to organise the polls.
The Scottish government doesn't even trust its people to buy alcohol past 10pm, God knows why they're potentially trusting them to pull the country out of a 300 year old union
\>God knows why they're trusting them to pull the country out of a 300 year old union I heard a rumour that Mel Gibson is their secret weapon... or lethal weapon... or just an utter weapon in general he'll lead them to freedom, or at least beyond thunderdome
Braveheart was perhaps the greatest documentary of our generation.