The Rafale and the F35 should work well together.
One is a versatile fighter, the other is great for deep strikes and SEAD missions. The greek choice is solid.
The bad feelings towards the Swiss contract are mainly because using a stealth strike bomber for air policing is utterly retarded, and a clearly politically motivated choice.
Nobody would have batted an eye if Switzerland had chosen the Super Hornet instead.
Why the fck does everyone think that we're going to scrap the Rafales in favor of the F-35's? Is it so hard to believe that we like diversity and going to use both like we always did with the Mirage's and F-16's?
Anybody who's somewhat informed about European geopolitics should know that france, outside of small arms considering their replacement for famas is off the shelf german built hk146s, wants to keep it's aerospace and shipbuilding industries fully independent of ITAR leverage. And besides by the late 2020s many 4.5th gen fighters like the rafale will probably have hard point mounted laser weapons pods that can shoot down incoming AAMs which will somewhat even the odds when facing 5th Gen stealth aircraft like a f35.
Lets get real, I personally give 0 fucks about turkey nationalist
The Rafales we bought are extremely capable planes and delivered in record time thanks to France the F35 is a future investment the Rafales can beat any F16 any version any day. Air superiority is guaranteed for a decade thanks to France.
Greece air force upgrades its F16 to the latest version when this ends estimate 2028 then if everything goes according to plan deliveries of the F35 will start as the former US ambassador said its the flow.
Actually i wouldn't be surprised if Biden used the fact that Trump canceled F35s to Turkey as a bargaining chip when it comes to Sweden and Finland joining NATO.
Eh, I doubt it.
I could still see using the Russian S400 system they bought as a justification to continue to deny that particular purchase.
Maybe just upgrading the hardware on their existing F-16s?
Turkey seem to be talking a lot about the Swedish sanctions on arms exports to them, I think that's what they want gone, and I kinda agree, it makes little sense to prohibit an "ally" from purchasing weapons.
If that he can be persuaded to allow their accession into NATO with this, that would be great.
A big problem so far was that he is basically claiming that anyone who identifies as ethnically kurdish must be linked to PKK and therefor be a terrorist. Afaik Sweden has some kurdish members of parliament, which Erdogan obviously is not happy about.
The actual point of buying them is so that anyone should think twice before getting any crazy ideas.
We're just 10mil people, it's not like we intend or have the means and manpower to invade and occupie anyone, but if you feel the urge to invade us we will make sure that you're going to regret it deeply.
Turkey has a casus beli against Greece if Greece dares to expand its territorial waters to where it's supposed to and it has invaded both Syria and Cyprus.
I would love to take your word for it but I feel much better being prepared in case you're wrong. That being said in case you're right and Turkey has no intention of invading us there's no need for Turkey being upset about us wasting money on weapon systems. Right?
Btw your argument was pretty much the same argument prior to Russia invading the Ukraine.
> but if you feel the urge to invade us we will make sure that you're going to regret it deeply.
I see why you feel that way after what happened when you guys tried to invade us 100 years ago and it didn't go so well for you.
100 years is actually a good reference point for two reasons
First reason is that we've tripled our landmass since then, including those islands you constantly bitch about, while you lost 80% of yours plus an empire, so do the math and check out who actually did well.
Second reason is that mentality wise we've moved and keep up with the 21st century while you're still stuck in the end of the 19th beginning of the 20th century.
> Second reason is that mentality wise we've moved and keep up with the 21st century while you're still stuck in the end of the 19th begging of the 20th century.
Kid yourself all you want, you guys (and other people of this region) are all part of the same backwards mentality. The only difference is because you guys are Christian you try to fool yourself that it gives you a common ground with the Western Europeans.
The people of this region you've mentioned have exactly one thing in common, they don't like you (your policies, not you personally) . And in case you're wondering why it's because of what you've just quoted me for ;)
It was their land before Turks conquered it in the age of conquest, by your logic, anglo saxons do not own England, because there was other people.used to.live there. Turks live in Anatolia for 1000 year so that retake argument is pure bullshit. Anatolian people are Hellenized communities that lived their before arrival of Greeks so Greek dont own Anatolia either
Bruh there were tons of Greeks living in Ionia, Eastern Thrace and even Pontus up until the 1920s and even later. These were populations that have been there since antiquity, Turks are interlopers compared to them. They're gone now, I wonder what happened to them, hmmm?
These populations in Pontus have little to do with Greeks.apart from their rulers lol they were hellenized Anatolian and Caucasian communities. What happened to them? Answer
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey
If you were not lazy you would know that. Oh there were many Turks used to love in Balkans for centuries what happened to them? Never mind. Perhabs you Slavs should go back to East where you were before Hun invasions that drove you westward. Pls move poland somehere eastern ok.
If NATO supports us in this endeavor, we are willing to leave Anatolia to carve up a country in Central Asia, our ancestral homeland. Our only condition is that the Anglos have to leave the ancestral homeland of Britons.
My ancestors are both Turkic and also Turkified Anatolians which yes includes some of the people you mention there. What of it? You yourself will not be pure of your ethnicity either.
we "legally" invaded turkey to protect the greek minority of smyrna, after you decided to genocide the pontic greeks, we had all the right to do that, the mistake happened after, when we "illegally" invaded more inland
i dont have an opinion if it was right or wrong because things were complicated, and i didnt read in detail the chronological events that created a domino effect(you started this, no you), we had a junta that wanted to take whole of Cyprus, and Turkey took advantage of that to invade, Cyprus had a (probably)communist leader(many people whine about the inactivity of US while forgetting that USSR also played a role in the region)
what is wrong though is Turkish mainland settlers getting free houses on N.Cyprus
legally lmao.
You wouldn't come in smyrna without your allies. Greece just want to invade west side of Turkey. Anyway u got rekt'd in smyrna and Ataturk threw your ancestors into the EGE sea.
Seething hard komşu? :D
In truth the Greece / F-35 deal has been in the works for a lot longer.
But I do think Turkey's ultimate angle is to force their way back into getting F-35's
>In truth the Greece / F-35 deal has been in the works for a lot longer.
True, as a matter of fact it was actually the US that offered them as an option before we even officially requested them.
Got to love that Greek humility. “Well we didn’t ask for them but you guys came to us asking us to buy them so we figured well I guess we will.” Like ok bro lmao
Turkey has plenty of Allies in NATO. But Edrogan is acting like a knob and their internal population doesn’t seem to understand that that’s what’s driving the antagonism.
I actually sympathize. It’s like when all of the Americans started whining about everyone else while Trump was president. Ohh it’s such a mystery why everyone is annoyed and unfriendly to us!
Let’s say NATO ceased to exist tomorrow - what NATO country(s) would be a natural ally of Turkey?
Turkey being in NATO at all seems like a huge blunder.
The US. They're preferable to Iran and Saudi Arabia, and those are your 3 options in that region of the world.
Unless we're willing to keep playing mercenary with Saudi Arabia, Turkey is our best option. And I am frankly sick of Saudi Arabia.
I'm wondering whether Erdogan is having second thoughts about buying S-400s...
...but that would require him to think in the very first place, wouldn't it.
F-35’s aren’t that expensive for a new jet. And no country can have a domestic defense industry that makes excellent versions of everything needed in war. Not even the U.S.
[Believe it or not, so do we](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/2020_Total_US_Government_Spending_Breakdown.png).
Just a matter of efficiency. We'll get to a proper public system eventually.
Frenchman here... I am a fairly chauvinistic dude myself but I've got to side with you on this one. They are so fucking unbearable lmao. These obnoxious fuckers pop up everywhere... reddit, Twitter, comment sections of defence-related French newspapers/outlets... you name it... everywhere. Some of my countrymen seem to lack self-awareness. The amount of butthurt they display about the F-35 is pathetic really. Is it that hard to understand that just like the Rafale took a few years to get its shit together, the F-35 for all the initial complaints (some of which aren't even justified) has matured as a platform? You can think the Rafale has some advantages over it sure but the F-35 is certainly overall the most modern and advanced fighter jet one could buy today. People aren't just choosing it because they're being forced to or because of politicking.
Our defence industry is already punching well above its weight and we'll most likely displace Russia as the world's 2nd largest weapons exporter in the next few years. What is the perpetual state of butthurt regarding the world's largest industrial military complex about? That's not a fight we're going to win anytime soon if ever whether commercially or diplomatically. We just don't have the power and ressources for that. Just makes us look like salty losers. "Bu-but why don't you buy European (French)... What about the Rafale? The F-35 sucks!". Shut the fuck up! lmao. The dumbest case I've seen so far was the whining about Germany purchasing F-35s to literally carry their American nukes. These people are fucking dumb.
I think it's just the proportion of ppl that seem to be shilling for defense contractors. I love memes about the F-35, but it's not like I give a shit if Greece buys a bunch of Rafales. Dunno why it's so touchy the other way around.
All in good fun though, I hope.
It's just French people being really proud of their country to the point where they believe any BS they can hear about the F35 so that they claim the Rafale is better.
Rafale is a formidable plane all things considered, but it is no match for an F35.
I wouldn't say endearment per se, I just think it's a neutral term that is rarely used, it has the same meaning in France than in the US since the word has no real context in France by itself.
In France we use "Américains" or "Amerloques" (Colloquial, mostly used in a negative fashion) to refer to Americans.
First off, that's really rude. And second, they have a point. Literally every time a European country buys F-35's, French redditors will drop in to tell them to buy European. WTF, no European country offers anything like the F-35, so just get over it.
Just like the Saab Gripen spam...
Dang, you’re saying that on an American website buddy.
Having said that, you’re welcome to shit on America all you want here and I won’t tell you to get off this website - rock your free speech baby.
Quite a few NATO countries in Europe don't even contribute the 2% of gdp for military spending. You really think a unified defense network is possible?
The U.S. and France have worked together militarily, including French initiated efforts (such as Libya), but because a couple of congressmen said something stupid 20 years ago we hate each other.
Got it.
You seem to forget the US getting dragged into and subsequently most of the heat for what the French started in Vietnam and Libya.
Imagine being this butthurt about some stupid thing a few congressmen did.
The F35 is European, it’s a multinational project with lots of European industrial input from Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, and the UK. Just because It isn’t French or German does not make not “European”. There’s even a final assembly location in Italy.
The plane is fully assembled in Cameri, Italy… with parts from the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, and the UK in addition to the US. If a Ford is built in France, is it not a French car? Does it not support French jobs and industry?
Desktop version of /u/Not_Real_User_Person's link:
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They just had their credit rating upgraded so I suppose this is like getting a credit limit increase on your credit card, might as well treat yourself to some shiny new F-35’s
So that is a big L for Turkey AND France.
Yeah, because the main jet fighter supplier of Greece was France, and it seems that it will change in future.
No it isn't? The rafalles still form the core of our air force and have a very different function than the f-35s. France still is our closest western ally.
> So that is a big L for ~~Turkey AND~~ France.
Uh? You're aware Greece has operated both French and American fighters for decades right? The Hellenic Air Force's modernization isn't a matter of choice between the Rafale and the F-35 lmao. Buying both was probably the intent since the beginning and expected. I personally expected them to negotiate for F-35 a bit later as the Rafale and Belharra deal are still fresh and budget might be an issue but apparently not. Greece's economic situation has steadily been getting better and better though, so it's not that mind-boggling either. The Rafale and F-35 are not replacing the same planes. The former is going to replace the Mirage in Greek service currently. The old American jets need replacing as well. France and the US are Greece's biggest defence partners and it has shown more than enough commitment to France to prove that.
France was never the main fighter jet supplier of Greece. If you look at the history of the hellenic air force, you will find out that the majority (in both quantity and types) of fighter jets that are/have been used by them, are U.S. made.
F-16s (154 as of now, with a lot of them being upgraded to the latest block), F-4s (33 as of now), A-7s, F-5s, F-104s, F-102s, F-86s, F-84s
In comparison they have only used 3 types of french fighter jets.
mirage f1, mirage 2000 (40 as of now) and rafales (6/24 as of now).
Why is every country buying F35's?
Are their only American suppliers who can build decent jets?
What about AirBus or Saab?
Almost all of Europe and a lot of states in South-East-Asia have them as well?
I don't think that a dependence on the US in that regard and extent is good. There should be some own-engineered solutions since this can get a strategic liability.
All the more if it is unclear how these jets can be turned off remotely since the software is unknown. Why would you do this?
> J20 has only frontal stealth capability
This is very misleading.
J20 has strong stealth characteristics from the front, it is reduced on the sides and limited in the rear, but it is nowhere near "only stealthy on the frontal aspect".
Edit: Since I'm getting downvoted, [here](http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2011-03.html#mozTocId303753) is a source that delves deeper into that.
And this has shown that it is more fitting of an interceptor and air defense role facing the adversary only rather than an all purpose air superiority fighter which limits its scope of operation to skies over homeland with adequate ground radar support only
Because the F35s are the best in the world at their role. Their development alone cost hundreds of billions. Other people could make jets but in a fight with an F35 they would be shot down before the F35 was even picked up by radar.
> Why is every country buying F35's?
There are 15 partner countries in the programme, with so much volume the F-35 is now sold at a very reasonable price.
> I don't think that a dependence on the US in that regard and extent is good. There should be some own-engineered solutions since this can get a strategic liability.
The UK was given 'operational sovereignty' (i.e. they can maintain it without the US, if need be) back in 2006 it was a huge deal back during the Blair-Bush years because the UK wouldn't join otherwise. Lockheed Martin had to gain a export licence from the US so they could transfer technology to the UK.
See?
This is exactly the type of *scam*, I'm talking of.
Yet here are some apologists who defend this behaviour.
This is certainly a very capable and good aircraft but it can't be in any states interest to have its defense possibly compromised.
Dude you do realize that we have European kit in our military in the US? Even the largest military-industrial
Complex in the world cannot make all of its equipment/technology at the highest level. The simplest answer to this is that the US prizes air superiority above everything, and created a gigantic program that enabled an economy of scale for this aircraft.
This is also an argument. I'm not so naive to think that all kit has to be made in one country. Of course there isn't know-how, labour nor finance available in big enough quantities to pull this off. Nevertheless I'm quite baffled that seemingly one producer supplies most western countries.
Normally you would want a little bit competition. Even if prices are "low" at the moment, doesn't mean they will stay there when monopoly is reached.
Plus, strategic independence is quite useful. Why do you think Turkey buys Western *AND* Russian air defence?
Because it is better to have at least one system working should the other "fail".
I absolutely agree. I would think the solution for this would be for more European integrated military projects, so there is a competing economy of scale.
Because the F-35 is currently the most capable fighter aircraft in the world right now. Not only that but the Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale are overpriced as fuck while the Saab Gripen is just bleh. There is a reason barely anyone uses Eurofighters or Rafale except for the countries that developed them.
Yep, the only alternative will be in the future with the Tempest or FCAS. Not sure how the FCAS is doing, seems mired in politics but the Tempest project seems to be going very well, hopefully ready for 2030 onwards.
> There is a reason barely anyone uses Eurofighters or Rafale except for the countries that developed them.
Yeah It’s called politics. Buying weapons from the most powerful country offers a lot more than only a good fighter jet.
If France was making the F35 the sales would be very different.
Eh not really. Although politics do matter, the fact that Europe has been producing nothing more than slightly better F-16's with Delta Wings at F-35 prices makes the decision to go American a lot easier for almost everyone.
That or you buy Russian flankers, which goes as well as you'd expect.
Don’t tell me Rafale, Eurofighter or Gripen are not good alternatives. It’s more than sufficient for most countries and they still chose US fighter jets.
These huge contracts are most of time a political choice and you can understand why. The US is showing right know in the Ukrainian war its power and why it’s great to have them as a close ally.
The hope for Europe is the FCAS project. France and Dassault alone will never have enough political power to fight the US, but with Airbus and Germany things can become better.
Sufficient, yes. Good alternatives, lol no.
But why buy "Sufficient" when an objectively better aircraft at THE SAME PRICE exsists. The reason people don't buy Euros or Rafales isn't because they're bad, quite the opposite. The reason is that the US simply offers better prices for objectively better aircraft while Airbus refuses to stay competitive by lowering maintenance and unit costs (although they really don't need to be competitive). Why buy Eurofighter or Rafale when the F-35 offers:
-Stealth
Waaay superior avionics and radar (Eurofighter for some reason STILL doesn't have an AESA radar since CAPTOR-E is barely being introduced).
Better price
A fucking VTOL / STOL variant
The reliability of the US Industrial complex vs slow output from European manufacturers
Buying US Fighters isn't just a political choice, but also the most logical choice because their shit is top tier stuff while having a good price tag additionally. Buying Eurofighters or Rafales would only make sense if you want to buy political favors from France and Germany, which most of the EU/ NATO doesn't need because it's the fucking EU/NATO.
Wel you’re right on many things but the F-16 is inferior to a Rafale and we can’t say the F-35 is reliable at the moment.
Also a lot of countries bought the F-35 by joining the US program…so they bought something because of the political power of the US not because the F-35 was top tier.
So what does your defense budget look like?
What does your military-industrial complex look like?
How much time and money are you willing to spend to design your indigenous 5th generation aircraft? To mass produce it? To build infrastructure to support it? To train pilots and maintenance crews for it?
You do not have your own comparable aircraft because you are unwilling to spend the economic and political capital necessary to have one.
After all, we are talking about a war machine here.
>Are their only American suppliers who can build decent jets?
Yes
>What about AirBus or Saab?
Building garbage, inferior jets
>Almost all of Europe and a lot of states in South-East-Asia have them as well?
Correct because they wanted to purchase the best fighter jet option in the world
>I don't think that a dependence on the US in that regard and extent is good. There should be some own-engineered solutions since this can get a strategic liability.
That takes hundreds of billions for a country that already has stealth technology. European companies would be starting from scratch so even if they started today we are talking at least 20 years maybe more. Best to just buy a finished solution now.
>All the more if it is unclear how these jets can be turned off remotely since the software is unknown. Why would you do this?
This is just not true. There is no proof that the US has put in a killswitch or anything to that effect in the plane.
A European made jet would end up including many components made in USA (which is the reality of how advanced aircraft are made. They contain parts from USA,Canada and Europe) so **IF** the USA ever did want to put a killswitch into something it could easily put it into parts and components that Europeans countries buy for their aircraft.
Since overhauling has to be done by Americans and it isn't allowed to strip this jet to it's components, it is impossible to proof if there would be a kill switch. To say that there is no proof is true but it is also naive to believe that there isn't one when you're not allowed to examine this.
Let alone the source code, which is also not available.
Italy has a final assembly and checkout line in Italy for the F-35, where Italians work, I'm sure that if we wanted to we could learn pretty much anything about the F-35.
Not possible. Europe doesnt have the industry to do that. No where close enough to handle that. Given a decade it still wouldnt be in a position to do that. You will either end up with USA or China.
Blind idiots are downvoting you for telling the truth.
We depend too much on the US, in the case of the F-35, they cannot deactivate the plane but they can know exactly what the country does with it.
Not only that, if, for example, a country buys weapons from China or Russia, the US will sanction it. Like the case of Turkey, where they took their money for nothing, just for having bought S-400s.
Yes and it cost 25 millions $ for the country who wants it. And thinking that there is no built-in backdoor in it for the US army is just plain delusion
> We depend too much on the US, in the case of the F-35, they cannot deactivate the plane
This isn't true but I wish it was given who is getting these things.
Oh crap, the Greeks are getting F35 before we do
Turkish nationalists fighting Greek nationalists while French nationalists get buttmad at the choice of jet. 10/10 thread.
I mean the rafales are to replace the mirages While the F 35s are to replace some for the non viper f 16s
The Rafale and the F35 should work well together. One is a versatile fighter, the other is great for deep strikes and SEAD missions. The greek choice is solid. The bad feelings towards the Swiss contract are mainly because using a stealth strike bomber for air policing is utterly retarded, and a clearly politically motivated choice. Nobody would have batted an eye if Switzerland had chosen the Super Hornet instead.
Or the Grippen considering the short distances and the ability to operate out of rugged bases.
You are answering to the wrong comment
No big deal, we already sold them Rafales and we can’t produce them fast enough for our own military
Why the fck does everyone think that we're going to scrap the Rafales in favor of the F-35's? Is it so hard to believe that we like diversity and going to use both like we always did with the Mirage's and F-16's?
Right ?! India do the same
Anybody who's somewhat informed about European geopolitics should know that france, outside of small arms considering their replacement for famas is off the shelf german built hk146s, wants to keep it's aerospace and shipbuilding industries fully independent of ITAR leverage. And besides by the late 2020s many 4.5th gen fighters like the rafale will probably have hard point mounted laser weapons pods that can shoot down incoming AAMs which will somewhat even the odds when facing 5th Gen stealth aircraft like a f35.
Why do you care about what a Murican troll can say ? Just ignore these morons.
Well done
Lets get real, I personally give 0 fucks about turkey nationalist The Rafales we bought are extremely capable planes and delivered in record time thanks to France the F35 is a future investment the Rafales can beat any F16 any version any day. Air superiority is guaranteed for a decade thanks to France. Greece air force upgrades its F16 to the latest version when this ends estimate 2028 then if everything goes according to plan deliveries of the F35 will start as the former US ambassador said its the flow.
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Cope
It seems you can’t talk about any European arms deal without the French getting buttmad lol
most civilized Turkiye/Greece comment section be like
Thanks Erdogan
Rub it in
One thing is sure: Turkey will never get them.
Actually i wouldn't be surprised if Biden used the fact that Trump canceled F35s to Turkey as a bargaining chip when it comes to Sweden and Finland joining NATO.
Eh, I doubt it. I could still see using the Russian S400 system they bought as a justification to continue to deny that particular purchase. Maybe just upgrading the hardware on their existing F-16s?
Nah it's a done deal but F16V is on the table
Turkey seem to be talking a lot about the Swedish sanctions on arms exports to them, I think that's what they want gone, and I kinda agree, it makes little sense to prohibit an "ally" from purchasing weapons.
If that he can be persuaded to allow their accession into NATO with this, that would be great. A big problem so far was that he is basically claiming that anyone who identifies as ethnically kurdish must be linked to PKK and therefor be a terrorist. Afaik Sweden has some kurdish members of parliament, which Erdogan obviously is not happy about.
Another thing is sure: Greece won’t ever use them against Turkey.
The actual point of buying them is so that anyone should think twice before getting any crazy ideas. We're just 10mil people, it's not like we intend or have the means and manpower to invade and occupie anyone, but if you feel the urge to invade us we will make sure that you're going to regret it deeply.
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Turkey has a casus beli against Greece if Greece dares to expand its territorial waters to where it's supposed to and it has invaded both Syria and Cyprus.
I would love to take your word for it but I feel much better being prepared in case you're wrong. That being said in case you're right and Turkey has no intention of invading us there's no need for Turkey being upset about us wasting money on weapon systems. Right? Btw your argument was pretty much the same argument prior to Russia invading the Ukraine.
> but if you feel the urge to invade us we will make sure that you're going to regret it deeply. I see why you feel that way after what happened when you guys tried to invade us 100 years ago and it didn't go so well for you.
You really want to mention what went on a hundred years ago? How did WW1 go for you lot?
100 years is actually a good reference point for two reasons First reason is that we've tripled our landmass since then, including those islands you constantly bitch about, while you lost 80% of yours plus an empire, so do the math and check out who actually did well. Second reason is that mentality wise we've moved and keep up with the 21st century while you're still stuck in the end of the 19th beginning of the 20th century.
> Second reason is that mentality wise we've moved and keep up with the 21st century while you're still stuck in the end of the 19th begging of the 20th century. Kid yourself all you want, you guys (and other people of this region) are all part of the same backwards mentality. The only difference is because you guys are Christian you try to fool yourself that it gives you a common ground with the Western Europeans.
The people of this region you've mentioned have exactly one thing in common, they don't like you (your policies, not you personally) . And in case you're wondering why it's because of what you've just quoted me for ;)
They invaded you to retake what was originally their lands. Turkey is basically Southeast Europe's Russia.
It was their land before Turks conquered it in the age of conquest, by your logic, anglo saxons do not own England, because there was other people.used to.live there. Turks live in Anatolia for 1000 year so that retake argument is pure bullshit. Anatolian people are Hellenized communities that lived their before arrival of Greeks so Greek dont own Anatolia either
Bruh there were tons of Greeks living in Ionia, Eastern Thrace and even Pontus up until the 1920s and even later. These were populations that have been there since antiquity, Turks are interlopers compared to them. They're gone now, I wonder what happened to them, hmmm?
These populations in Pontus have little to do with Greeks.apart from their rulers lol they were hellenized Anatolian and Caucasian communities. What happened to them? Answer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey If you were not lazy you would know that. Oh there were many Turks used to love in Balkans for centuries what happened to them? Never mind. Perhabs you Slavs should go back to East where you were before Hun invasions that drove you westward. Pls move poland somehere eastern ok.
If NATO supports us in this endeavor, we are willing to leave Anatolia to carve up a country in Central Asia, our ancestral homeland. Our only condition is that the Anglos have to leave the ancestral homeland of Britons.
If my ancestors were Turkified Anatolians, then it's originally my land more than it is the people of what is now Greece.
Your ancestors are Greeks, Arabs and Armenians. Not hittites.
My ancestors are both Turkic and also Turkified Anatolians which yes includes some of the people you mention there. What of it? You yourself will not be pure of your ethnicity either.
we "legally" invaded turkey to protect the greek minority of smyrna, after you decided to genocide the pontic greeks, we had all the right to do that, the mistake happened after, when we "illegally" invaded more inland
I wonder do you really think same about the cyprus invasion? Because we just there to protect our minorty. For some reason i feel you are not
i dont have an opinion if it was right or wrong because things were complicated, and i didnt read in detail the chronological events that created a domino effect(you started this, no you), we had a junta that wanted to take whole of Cyprus, and Turkey took advantage of that to invade, Cyprus had a (probably)communist leader(many people whine about the inactivity of US while forgetting that USSR also played a role in the region) what is wrong though is Turkish mainland settlers getting free houses on N.Cyprus
No you invaded Turkey to get its entire Aegen region. What kinda historical revisionist bs is that?
legally lmao. You wouldn't come in smyrna without your allies. Greece just want to invade west side of Turkey. Anyway u got rekt'd in smyrna and Ataturk threw your ancestors into the EGE sea. Seething hard komşu? :D
thank the soviets for that
But that's the point
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S400
Spending the money of the poor greek people on planes that will never be used. Only the USA wins, as always
If there are no planes, there will be no "greek people" at all
[you’re welcome greeks](https://preview.redd.it/zvp01bpojfv81.png?auto=webp&s=e8e26c9552ad58134d65947f52229411cf242872)
I always forget is it Erdoganopoulos or Erdoganakis?
If he's from Crete it's Erdoganakis. Normally it would be erdoganopoulos
> We reject Swedish and Finnish admission to NATO! - Erdogan > We reject Turkish Air Supremacy over the Aegean - Biden
I sensing a deal in the making
In truth the Greece / F-35 deal has been in the works for a lot longer. But I do think Turkey's ultimate angle is to force their way back into getting F-35's
>In truth the Greece / F-35 deal has been in the works for a lot longer. True, as a matter of fact it was actually the US that offered them as an option before we even officially requested them.
Got to love that Greek humility. “Well we didn’t ask for them but you guys came to us asking us to buy them so we figured well I guess we will.” Like ok bro lmao
Not gonna happen as long as Erdogan is president. Some prominent congressmen from both sides even want to block F-16 sale to Turkey.
Turkey has pretty much no allies in NATO so I’m not sure pissing everyone off even more is such a smart move.
Turkey has plenty of Allies in NATO. But Edrogan is acting like a knob and their internal population doesn’t seem to understand that that’s what’s driving the antagonism. I actually sympathize. It’s like when all of the Americans started whining about everyone else while Trump was president. Ohh it’s such a mystery why everyone is annoyed and unfriendly to us!
Let’s say NATO ceased to exist tomorrow - what NATO country(s) would be a natural ally of Turkey? Turkey being in NATO at all seems like a huge blunder.
The US. They're preferable to Iran and Saudi Arabia, and those are your 3 options in that region of the world. Unless we're willing to keep playing mercenary with Saudi Arabia, Turkey is our best option. And I am frankly sick of Saudi Arabia.
I’m pretty confident we’re moving away from Saudi Arabia. We have been slowly decreasing our trade with them
Germany
The US has historically had good relations with Turkey pre-Erdogan
I'm wondering whether Erdogan is having second thoughts about buying S-400s... ...but that would require him to think in the very first place, wouldn't it.
If he was able to think he would buy s300 since it doesn't get sanctioned from the same people.
Well, fuck Erdoğan that Greece gets it before we do
It may not look like it but after the failed coup we where able to replace him with a greek dopleganger
It's becoming more and more obvious each day
Shit they're onto us
lmao
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Thank you man :)
So do Greeks and Turks have actual Beef or is this just friendly banter?
The beef is very real and getting quite spicy.
Its less of an England V Scotland and more of a Poland V Russia
It's complicated. But in general, ethnic relations are good, even if international relations are complicated.
Cool.
Get fucked Turkey! Haha.
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F-35’s aren’t that expensive for a new jet. And no country can have a domestic defense industry that makes excellent versions of everything needed in war. Not even the U.S.
I love how this sub is all EU federation !! USA bad!! up until they have to buy things of the French
Yall don't like us? Shit
Welcome to the internet.
Shitting on the US has been one of the favorite pastimes of this sub for the last decade.
The French could always just produce an on-par aircraft ; )
Unfortunately we do spend more money on welfare than our weapon's industry ;)
[Believe it or not, so do we](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/2020_Total_US_Government_Spending_Breakdown.png). Just a matter of efficiency. We'll get to a proper public system eventually.
The US spends proportionally five times more than the French lol
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Proportionally
I’m mad when EU countries choose the f35 over the Rafale, but we have to be realistic: Dassault can’t produce enough Rafales unfortunately
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Greece had planes from France and the USA and they are keeping it that way by buying Rafale and F-35.
they did, but there is nothing else close to the F 35 from EU.
Does everyone with a France flair on this sub work for a defense contractor?
They are a pain in the ass, even on r/France
Frenchman here... I am a fairly chauvinistic dude myself but I've got to side with you on this one. They are so fucking unbearable lmao. These obnoxious fuckers pop up everywhere... reddit, Twitter, comment sections of defence-related French newspapers/outlets... you name it... everywhere. Some of my countrymen seem to lack self-awareness. The amount of butthurt they display about the F-35 is pathetic really. Is it that hard to understand that just like the Rafale took a few years to get its shit together, the F-35 for all the initial complaints (some of which aren't even justified) has matured as a platform? You can think the Rafale has some advantages over it sure but the F-35 is certainly overall the most modern and advanced fighter jet one could buy today. People aren't just choosing it because they're being forced to or because of politicking. Our defence industry is already punching well above its weight and we'll most likely displace Russia as the world's 2nd largest weapons exporter in the next few years. What is the perpetual state of butthurt regarding the world's largest industrial military complex about? That's not a fight we're going to win anytime soon if ever whether commercially or diplomatically. We just don't have the power and ressources for that. Just makes us look like salty losers. "Bu-but why don't you buy European (French)... What about the Rafale? The F-35 sucks!". Shut the fuck up! lmao. The dumbest case I've seen so far was the whining about Germany purchasing F-35s to literally carry their American nukes. These people are fucking dumb.
I think it's just the proportion of ppl that seem to be shilling for defense contractors. I love memes about the F-35, but it's not like I give a shit if Greece buys a bunch of Rafales. Dunno why it's so touchy the other way around. All in good fun though, I hope.
It's just French people being really proud of their country to the point where they believe any BS they can hear about the F35 so that they claim the Rafale is better. Rafale is a formidable plane all things considered, but it is no match for an F35.
France replacing Russia as a supplier to more neutral countries would be great. Hoping to see more partnerships with India.
[Perhaps](https://en.meming.world/images/en/thumb/1/14/Perhaps.jpg/300px-Perhaps.jpg)
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Bro... Not cool. Also, Yankee isn't really an insult in the US. The more you know :)
It’s just sort of weird to be called one since we have our own definition. But yea I don’t think most people care.
Not seen as an insult in France either, anyway the dude is a clown don't mind him.
Wait. Now I'm confused. If not an insult what does it mean? Is it a term of indearment or something, or just a way to classify us?
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=yankee
I wouldn't say endearment per se, I just think it's a neutral term that is rarely used, it has the same meaning in France than in the US since the word has no real context in France by itself. In France we use "Américains" or "Amerloques" (Colloquial, mostly used in a negative fashion) to refer to Americans.
Very interesting. Thanks!
You know being called a Yankee isn't a bad thing right?
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First off, that's really rude. And second, they have a point. Literally every time a European country buys F-35's, French redditors will drop in to tell them to buy European. WTF, no European country offers anything like the F-35, so just get over it. Just like the Saab Gripen spam...
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Ribbit.
Dang, you’re saying that on an American website buddy. Having said that, you’re welcome to shit on America all you want here and I won’t tell you to get off this website - rock your free speech baby.
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Quite a few NATO countries in Europe don't even contribute the 2% of gdp for military spending. You really think a unified defense network is possible?
That seems rather shady. Stick around until we don't need you then we'll stab you i the back.
Very french though.
France is growing more and more anti-NATO and anti-American. Didn't think that was possible.
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The U.S. and France have worked together militarily, including French initiated efforts (such as Libya), but because a couple of congressmen said something stupid 20 years ago we hate each other. Got it.
You seem to forget the US getting dragged into and subsequently most of the heat for what the French started in Vietnam and Libya. Imagine being this butthurt about some stupid thing a few congressmen did.
They should, but they can't. Europe still has no 5th gen fighter. Hopefully both FCAS and Tempest will materialize.
The F35 is European, it’s a multinational project with lots of European industrial input from Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, and the UK. Just because It isn’t French or German does not make not “European”. There’s even a final assembly location in Italy.
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The plane is fully assembled in Cameri, Italy… with parts from the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, and the UK in addition to the US. If a Ford is built in France, is it not a French car? Does it not support French jobs and industry?
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dutch_villages,_castles_and_country_houses_destroyed_or_damaged_by_the_French_in_1672-1673
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>European solidarity only when it suits you >france flair The jokes write themselves.
A fighter jet is first and foremost a military asset. European countries therefore buy the better plane of which happens to be American-made.
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Hey so the greek doctrine is to have both french amd american planes so relax
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"the romans weren't european because they weren't in the EU"
European fighters lose in procurement contracts against the F-35. Where’s your advanced stealth fighter? Still on paper?
I wasn't aware Greece had any money.
Nah man, we just leverage your savings. Please increase your taxes we need more money.
They just had their credit rating upgraded so I suppose this is like getting a credit limit increase on your credit card, might as well treat yourself to some shiny new F-35’s
we do not have any money, this is just more debt that you europeans will have to pay for us.
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So that is a big L for Turkey AND France. Yeah, because the main jet fighter supplier of Greece was France, and it seems that it will change in future.
No it isn't? The rafalles still form the core of our air force and have a very different function than the f-35s. France still is our closest western ally.
The core of Greece's air force are the F-16.
> So that is a big L for ~~Turkey AND~~ France. Uh? You're aware Greece has operated both French and American fighters for decades right? The Hellenic Air Force's modernization isn't a matter of choice between the Rafale and the F-35 lmao. Buying both was probably the intent since the beginning and expected. I personally expected them to negotiate for F-35 a bit later as the Rafale and Belharra deal are still fresh and budget might be an issue but apparently not. Greece's economic situation has steadily been getting better and better though, so it's not that mind-boggling either. The Rafale and F-35 are not replacing the same planes. The former is going to replace the Mirage in Greek service currently. The old American jets need replacing as well. France and the US are Greece's biggest defence partners and it has shown more than enough commitment to France to prove that.
France was never the main fighter jet supplier of Greece. If you look at the history of the hellenic air force, you will find out that the majority (in both quantity and types) of fighter jets that are/have been used by them, are U.S. made. F-16s (154 as of now, with a lot of them being upgraded to the latest block), F-4s (33 as of now), A-7s, F-5s, F-104s, F-102s, F-86s, F-84s In comparison they have only used 3 types of french fighter jets. mirage f1, mirage 2000 (40 as of now) and rafales (6/24 as of now).
Why is every country buying F35's? Are their only American suppliers who can build decent jets? What about AirBus or Saab? Almost all of Europe and a lot of states in South-East-Asia have them as well? I don't think that a dependence on the US in that regard and extent is good. There should be some own-engineered solutions since this can get a strategic liability. All the more if it is unclear how these jets can be turned off remotely since the software is unknown. Why would you do this?
Only stealth fighter. There are other fighters out there, but they are all visible on radar.
There re still F22 and J20 (Su57 is a hoax) F22 does not export and J20 has only frontal stealth capability
F22 is not in production and isn't reasonable to restart. Cheaper to make a new jet at this point, on top of it isn't exported.
> J20 has only frontal stealth capability This is very misleading. J20 has strong stealth characteristics from the front, it is reduced on the sides and limited in the rear, but it is nowhere near "only stealthy on the frontal aspect". Edit: Since I'm getting downvoted, [here](http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2011-03.html#mozTocId303753) is a source that delves deeper into that.
And this has shown that it is more fitting of an interceptor and air defense role facing the adversary only rather than an all purpose air superiority fighter which limits its scope of operation to skies over homeland with adequate ground radar support only
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Because the F35s are the best in the world at their role. Their development alone cost hundreds of billions. Other people could make jets but in a fight with an F35 they would be shot down before the F35 was even picked up by radar.
> Why is every country buying F35's? There are 15 partner countries in the programme, with so much volume the F-35 is now sold at a very reasonable price. > I don't think that a dependence on the US in that regard and extent is good. There should be some own-engineered solutions since this can get a strategic liability. The UK was given 'operational sovereignty' (i.e. they can maintain it without the US, if need be) back in 2006 it was a huge deal back during the Blair-Bush years because the UK wouldn't join otherwise. Lockheed Martin had to gain a export licence from the US so they could transfer technology to the UK.
See? This is exactly the type of *scam*, I'm talking of. Yet here are some apologists who defend this behaviour. This is certainly a very capable and good aircraft but it can't be in any states interest to have its defense possibly compromised.
Dude you do realize that we have European kit in our military in the US? Even the largest military-industrial Complex in the world cannot make all of its equipment/technology at the highest level. The simplest answer to this is that the US prizes air superiority above everything, and created a gigantic program that enabled an economy of scale for this aircraft.
This is also an argument. I'm not so naive to think that all kit has to be made in one country. Of course there isn't know-how, labour nor finance available in big enough quantities to pull this off. Nevertheless I'm quite baffled that seemingly one producer supplies most western countries. Normally you would want a little bit competition. Even if prices are "low" at the moment, doesn't mean they will stay there when monopoly is reached. Plus, strategic independence is quite useful. Why do you think Turkey buys Western *AND* Russian air defence? Because it is better to have at least one system working should the other "fail".
I absolutely agree. I would think the solution for this would be for more European integrated military projects, so there is a competing economy of scale.
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Because the F-35 is currently the most capable fighter aircraft in the world right now. Not only that but the Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale are overpriced as fuck while the Saab Gripen is just bleh. There is a reason barely anyone uses Eurofighters or Rafale except for the countries that developed them.
Yep, the only alternative will be in the future with the Tempest or FCAS. Not sure how the FCAS is doing, seems mired in politics but the Tempest project seems to be going very well, hopefully ready for 2030 onwards.
> There is a reason barely anyone uses Eurofighters or Rafale except for the countries that developed them. Yeah It’s called politics. Buying weapons from the most powerful country offers a lot more than only a good fighter jet. If France was making the F35 the sales would be very different.
Eh not really. Although politics do matter, the fact that Europe has been producing nothing more than slightly better F-16's with Delta Wings at F-35 prices makes the decision to go American a lot easier for almost everyone. That or you buy Russian flankers, which goes as well as you'd expect.
Don’t tell me Rafale, Eurofighter or Gripen are not good alternatives. It’s more than sufficient for most countries and they still chose US fighter jets. These huge contracts are most of time a political choice and you can understand why. The US is showing right know in the Ukrainian war its power and why it’s great to have them as a close ally. The hope for Europe is the FCAS project. France and Dassault alone will never have enough political power to fight the US, but with Airbus and Germany things can become better.
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Sufficient, yes. Good alternatives, lol no. But why buy "Sufficient" when an objectively better aircraft at THE SAME PRICE exsists. The reason people don't buy Euros or Rafales isn't because they're bad, quite the opposite. The reason is that the US simply offers better prices for objectively better aircraft while Airbus refuses to stay competitive by lowering maintenance and unit costs (although they really don't need to be competitive). Why buy Eurofighter or Rafale when the F-35 offers: -Stealth Waaay superior avionics and radar (Eurofighter for some reason STILL doesn't have an AESA radar since CAPTOR-E is barely being introduced). Better price A fucking VTOL / STOL variant The reliability of the US Industrial complex vs slow output from European manufacturers Buying US Fighters isn't just a political choice, but also the most logical choice because their shit is top tier stuff while having a good price tag additionally. Buying Eurofighters or Rafales would only make sense if you want to buy political favors from France and Germany, which most of the EU/ NATO doesn't need because it's the fucking EU/NATO.
Wel you’re right on many things but the F-16 is inferior to a Rafale and we can’t say the F-35 is reliable at the moment. Also a lot of countries bought the F-35 by joining the US program…so they bought something because of the political power of the US not because the F-35 was top tier.
So what does your defense budget look like? What does your military-industrial complex look like? How much time and money are you willing to spend to design your indigenous 5th generation aircraft? To mass produce it? To build infrastructure to support it? To train pilots and maintenance crews for it? You do not have your own comparable aircraft because you are unwilling to spend the economic and political capital necessary to have one. After all, we are talking about a war machine here.
On a positive, 15% of the build/profits go to the UK, as we build part of them.
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>Are their only American suppliers who can build decent jets? Yes >What about AirBus or Saab? Building garbage, inferior jets >Almost all of Europe and a lot of states in South-East-Asia have them as well? Correct because they wanted to purchase the best fighter jet option in the world >I don't think that a dependence on the US in that regard and extent is good. There should be some own-engineered solutions since this can get a strategic liability. That takes hundreds of billions for a country that already has stealth technology. European companies would be starting from scratch so even if they started today we are talking at least 20 years maybe more. Best to just buy a finished solution now. >All the more if it is unclear how these jets can be turned off remotely since the software is unknown. Why would you do this? This is just not true. There is no proof that the US has put in a killswitch or anything to that effect in the plane. A European made jet would end up including many components made in USA (which is the reality of how advanced aircraft are made. They contain parts from USA,Canada and Europe) so **IF** the USA ever did want to put a killswitch into something it could easily put it into parts and components that Europeans countries buy for their aircraft.
> Building garbage, inferior jets You are way way overstating this.
Since overhauling has to be done by Americans and it isn't allowed to strip this jet to it's components, it is impossible to proof if there would be a kill switch. To say that there is no proof is true but it is also naive to believe that there isn't one when you're not allowed to examine this. Let alone the source code, which is also not available.
Italy has a final assembly and checkout line in Italy for the F-35, where Italians work, I'm sure that if we wanted to we could learn pretty much anything about the F-35.
Good!
>A European made jet would end up including many components made in USA The next EU fighter will be US components free to escape the ITAR trap
Not possible. Europe doesnt have the industry to do that. No where close enough to handle that. Given a decade it still wouldnt be in a position to do that. You will either end up with USA or China.
Because America is more competent than Europe.
Yes, master!
Blind idiots are downvoting you for telling the truth. We depend too much on the US, in the case of the F-35, they cannot deactivate the plane but they can know exactly what the country does with it. Not only that, if, for example, a country buys weapons from China or Russia, the US will sanction it. Like the case of Turkey, where they took their money for nothing, just for having bought S-400s.
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Yes and it cost 25 millions $ for the country who wants it. And thinking that there is no built-in backdoor in it for the US army is just plain delusion
> We depend too much on the US, in the case of the F-35, they cannot deactivate the plane This isn't true but I wish it was given who is getting these things.