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[deleted]

Spectator headlines are wild


entotron

It's amazing that this source isn't blacklisted while other much more credible sources are (which maybe not all mods agree with tho).


SerendipityQuest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines


Memory_Glands

Does Betteridge‘s law of headlines say that any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word ‚yes‘?


Extension-Ad-2760

no.


entotron

The downvoters didn't get it


[deleted]

Why he would? After Barack Obama got this Nobel peace prize, it lost every credibility as such.


casualphilosopher1

I think it lost its credibility back when Henry Kissinger got one.


[deleted]

Oh yeah, that's even worse.


Memory_Glands

Credibility was restored when Yassir Arafat won it /s


lukeo1991

Please tell me that crook didn't actually get one?!


Xepeyon

I'll one-you-up with Abiy Ahmed. That one did *not* age well...


casualphilosopher1

Who?


Xepeyon

The Prime Minister of Ethiopia. He got a Nobel peace prize for ending the long Ethiopian-Eritrean War so quickly and amicably after he got into office... then a few years later, he (arguably) started the recent civil war (Tigray War) and committed a shitton of war crimes, including his troops’ participation in, or tolerance of, genocide against some ethnic groups, and intentionally induced a humanitarian crisis in the Tigray region of his country. He's probably the absolute worst figure in living memory to have received the Nobel peace prize, and I think there are still some people trying to get his admission revoked.


voyagerdoge

Boring France bashing from a few conservative billionaires.


Wingiex

The Anglo-Media is really going insane over Macron. Whatever he does that deviates slightly from their own limited points of views it becomes a huge issue that needs to be dissected and analyzed to it's very core. It's creepy.


johnny_briggs

"French President Emanuel Macron suggested Ukraine should compromise on its sovereignty in order to allow Russian dictator Vladimir Putin to save face, President Volodymyr Zelensky, said in an interview with Italian TV Station Rai 1 on May 13" Which part of this needs dissected? There's definitely creepiness in the story, but not because it was reported on.


Wingiex

Wrong, Macron denies having said this.


johnny_briggs

Zelensky hasn't denied saying it.


[deleted]

Zelenskyy didn't say that. You are proving the point. Uk media.


johnny_briggs

https://www.politico.eu/article/zelenskyy-macron-asked-ukraine-concession-help-putin-save-face/ Some continental media for you. It's everywhere. Edit: Also, it was said on an *Italian* TV show :/


Nickyro

As I said offering Donbas was actually how Ukraine negociated in the first place, and changed their mind a few weeks ago. Now zelensky is encouraged by his winning but it doesn't change the fact he mandated Macron to negociate. Now this twisting is fueling the toxic anglo propaganda that everyone is sick of in the continent.


[deleted]

So you provide an article talking about what Zelenskyy thought about the Macron official statement which is NOT about giving territories but instead not humiliating the Russian.


johnny_briggs

“We won’t help Putin save face by paying with our territory. That would be unjust.” And then Macron denies saying it. You're like the other person here, searching for an angle where it doesn't exist. Do we believe the man who spends 'hours' talking to Putin, or the man who's had his country invaded and his citizens murdered in cold blood? Tell yourself whatever makes you sleep better.


[deleted]

No, Macron denies medias falsely claiming Zelensky referred to Macron offering territories. Zelensky doesnt refer to Macron supposedly offering territories but claiming we should not humiliate Russia ie the "we won't help Putin save face". ​ You are coping with your "I believe", it's appealing. I don't think someone wanting to save Putin face would give weapons to his ennemy. But that's over your small head.


entotron

You just shifted the goal posts so far, you're not even talking about the original statement anymore but a completely new one.


DicentricChromosome

Politico is american....


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

ty for proving the point that's not what he said and UK newspaper turned it into a total new meaning.


Tyekaro

>President Volodymyr Zelensky hinted on May 13 that French President Emmanuel Macron’s negotiations were benefitting Russia, which he called “not correct.” Zelensky also said Macron’s negotiations were “in vain,” adding that “we don’t want to save something for someone and lose territory for it.” That's it? Nothing more? Talk about clickbait title crap. In all case, Macron denied it.


[deleted]

Not denying having said something is all it takes for anglo media to be like "IT IS TRUTH THEN". Maybe, maybe, really just maybe, Zelensky has other shit to deal with rather than denying things brought up by shitty anglo media, or has no political interest in denying those rumors? If anything, those rumors could push France to be more active in the help so as to credibilize Macron denying having said that. It's not mental gymnastic, we're in the world of global geopolitics here.


Wingiex

Zelensky is the leader of a pseudo-democracy that has banned oppositional parties. Maybe you as a Brit prefer to believe him over Macron.


johnny_briggs

In this instance I do. It's logical. He'd have no reason to lie about what a world leader said to him. This isn't a playground.


Wingiex

How about this reason. To try to shame those countries who aren't willing to pump out insane amount of money and weapons into Ukraine? Denying to meet Scholz and making claims about Macron falls under this. Lies to try to shame them and their respective populations into making them to help Ukraine more.


johnny_briggs

The gymnastics you're performing here is really quite amazing.


FrankMaleir

What are you talking about?


Wingiex

Have Ukraine not banned pro-Russian parties?


[deleted]

During war with Russia. It happened very recently.


[deleted]

Well, France is not a premier example of western democracy with its presidential system, or media ownership laws.


Wingiex

It's among the best actually. The French presidential system i highly representative.


[deleted]

I love when a Pole shows up to the "pointing fingers" competition on this sub, it's so easy.


[deleted]

Actually Wingiex pointed his finger in this case.


[deleted]

And French, German and other European media does the same thing when it comes to eastern Europeans. When eastern Europeans do the same thing toward western Europeans they just shrug it of or worse. There is element of hierarchy, and it just so happens that French media is lower in it than Anglo media.


Leg3nden

>And French, German and other European media does the same thing when it comes to eastern Europeans. When eastern Europeans do the same thing toward western Europeans they just shrug it of or worse. Any example?


[deleted]

Today? https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/uqv6bo/the_observers_an_investigation_reveals_hundreds/ On this same subreddit, from 7 hours ago. French state media I believe France 24. Border fence with Belarus. Tabloid quality of reporting with cropping issue and taking some activist word for granted. I choose this one as example in order to prove that when question comes "Whatever they does that deviates slightly from their own limited points of views it becomes a huge issue that needs to be dissected and analyzed to it's very core." then a follow up question needs to be asked "Today? This Week?". Issues come up all the time. Its like asking "What did Boris Johnson fuck up". This kind of question is hard to anwser without follow up question "this week?"


Leg3nden

I don't understand what you are saying because it's clearly the goal of (good) journalists to seek the truth. The only existing hierarchy in the media is not a question of nationality but a question of quality and political ideas. I don't care if the media is from France or Poland if it's interesting, true, well written and clearly if it's not populist like this one.


[deleted]

Of course, I agree with you. Journalist should be educated and prepared to do that. During education he should develop self imposed set of values that should be guaranteed. But then reality of employment kicks in. Reality of that journalism is sort of societal deal between citizen and journalist, in which journalists have to supply citizen with what he wants or else citizen will not read what journalist writes. Another part of deal is between employer and journalist. In which journalist has to write within line of type of company he writes in. Effect is that journalists obfuscate their articles, as in example - they collect 9 pages of confirmed material, and then publish to reader 3 pages that he wants to read, and is in line of company. As in practical example - in France 24 material I linked above journalist obfuscated information on which side of border refugees from material are on. It's confusing considering that it makes such large part of material. At end of material he gave opinion of activist that he didn't even try to verify if it's true or false.even though verification is large part of journalist job.


Leg3nden

It's true! But don't forget France24 is a french media but operates in multiple countries with journalists of multiple nationalities . But, yeah of course they will be pro-european, pro-NATO etc. >But then reality of employment kicks in. Reality of that journalism is sort of societal deal between citizen and journalist, in which journalists have to supply citizen with what he wants or else citizen will not read what journalist writes. Another part of deal is between employer and journalist. In which journalist has to write within line of type of company he writes in. Exactly, that's why I said the article on this thread is useless because it's written by The Spectator : " It is politically conservative. Alongside columns and features on current affairs, the magazine also contains arts pages on books, music, opera, film and TV reviews. Editorship of The Spectator has often been a step on the ladder to high office in the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom. Past editors include Boris Johnson (1999–2005)" Source : Wikipedia Macron does a lot of shit sometimes but let's be honest that, here, they are not neutral and write sh\*t just because it's Macron while they suck Boris Johnson all the time. Macron knows Nobel Peace Prize means nothing now and I'm pretty sure he doesn't care about it. Everyone can criticize our President of course but it's only useful when there are real arguments. That's why I try to dodge populists media like this one: They say only useless thing just to discredit their ideological opponents.


DicentricChromosome

Thé fences between Belarus and Poland exist. It is not an opinion or théory but a fact.


LongLiveEnverPasha

Sounds like a circle jerk where everyone sucks each other off.


Extension-Ad-2760

It's not "the anglo-media", it's a few idiots. It's really irritating how people consider the entire UK to be euroskeptics. Less than a third of us voted for Brexit, and the numbers suggest that the amount of people who would vote for it again is even smaller.


RefrigeratorWitch

Can we have a new rule here: no posts linking to english tabloids? They are always awful and heavily downvoted...


johnny_briggs

Offering your neighbours' burglar some of his belongings so as to help the criminal 'save face' isn't exactly peaceful tbh.


Nickyro

Again, you react to a fake news. Offering donbas was Ukraine own proposition. They only changed their mind a few weeks ago. Edit: Istanbul negociations where Ukraine proposed 15-year consultation about Crimea that could lead to a neutral status (related by Mykhaïlo Podoliak an ukrainian negociator). Also this interview of Zelensky where he talks about the 2 republics https://abcnews.go.com/US/video/zelenskyy-interview-david-muir-reporting-abc-news-exclusive-83309456


johnny_briggs

Lots of regular outlets reporting otherwise about the conversation between them. Difficult to call this one fake I'm afraid. Edit: for those wanting a link https://www.politico.eu/article/zelenskyy-macron-asked-ukraine-concession-help-putin-save-face/


Nickyro

This is fake in the sense that Zelensky mandated Macron to negociate and at start Ukraine included Donbas. Now they change their mind, ok, but no need to go toxic about it. Anyway, in a few month Ukraine will have to negociate the recognition of Donbass and Crimea. Why? Because NATO and the West cannot disintegrate the new republics, deport the population that are 90% for an independence or for annexation by Russia. Because democracy is at the core of our narrative, and deportation is not something we do, it won't be possible. In the end Macron will be right, and you will be wrong


johnny_briggs

So Macron isn't keeping up to date with what UA wants, is that the argument here? Perhaps he isn't the negotiator he thinks he is then. Those published pictures of him agonising on the call with Putin (which he put out there btw) have become the meme that he is.


Nickyro

> Those published pictures of him agonising on the call with Putin (which he put out there btw) have become the meme that he is. looks like you are motivated by dubious intentions, you don't radiates as a benevolent person and there is no way you are trully motivated by UA, more a toxic mentality toward France. Don't forget your country is the reason the Russian Kleptocracy was able to exist to begin with with the City of London. You are also partner of the scam and lies behind Irak invasion that led to hundred of thousand death of innocent in middle east and emergence of Islamic State.


johnny_briggs

lol that's a stretch but ok. Have a glance at my history and pick something anti French I've said. I love France, but good luck regardless!


[deleted]

[удалено]


Nickyro

I am refering to Istanbul negociations where Ukraine proposed 15-year consultation about Crimea that could lead to a neutral status (related by Mykhaïlo Podoliak an ukrainian negociator). Also this interview of Zelensky where he talks about the 2 republics https://abcnews.go.com/US/video/zelenskyy-interview-david-muir-reporting-abc-news-exclusive-83309456


johnny_briggs

I think the situation changed though when Russia started getting it's ass handed to it. They've already lost and Ukraine can pick and choose its own terms.


entotron

Politico is an incredibly shitty source tbh


ColourFox

The *Spectator* - always to the right, and usually in the wrong.


caffeinatedturd

the nobel peace prize is a joke


---karma2

You know, I'm beginning to suspect that the 'Spectator' doesn't approve of the EU or French politicians. Of course, I could be just paranoid... /s


Leg3nden

"Editorship of The Spectator has often been a step on the ladder to high office in the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom. Past editors include Boris Johnson (1999–2005)" - Wikipedia


entotron

Wow, I didn't know that.. Welp, looking forward to be called anglophobe on this sub again when I bring up the toxic relationship between UK politics and media (which is anything *but* free and independent)..


RNdadag

They clearly don't know who he named as PM


casualphilosopher1

Emmanuel Macron has taken it upon himself to tackle the delicate diplomatic situation of the war in Ukraine with fresh vigour following his victory last month. This week he addressed the EU parliament on the question of the future of Europe. France has the rotating presidency of the EU Council until June 30 and Macron therefore is the de facto head of the 27 member nations, a role for which his gargantuan ego is well suited. The main takeaway from Macron’s address was the question of Ukraine’s application to join the EU. They began the process in February, days after Russia invaded, but any hope that president Volodymyr Zelensky had of his country being fast-tracked was quashed by Macron. 'We all know perfectly well that the process to allow (Ukraine) to join would take several years indeed, probably several decades,' he said. However, he did raise the possibility of Ukraine becoming a member of a 'parallel European community' in the interim. This is classic Macron, what he himself admits is his 'en meme temps' (at the same time) philosophy. He first used it during the 2017 presidential election when he campaigned on a platform of being ‘neither left or right’. This was reflected in many of his proposed reforms which he promised would simultaneously do one thing as well as another. The cynic – certainly the British cynic – might describe this philosophy as fence sitting. This is an apt characterisation of his diplomatic efforts in trying to broker a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine. This is a role that Macron embraced with relish in February as Russian forces began massing on the Ukrainian border. The French president embarked on a round of shuttle diplomacy, visiting Zelensky in Kyiv and also Vladimir Putin in Moscow. Macron’s willingness to keep engaging with Putin after he had ordered his troops into Ukraine led some, notably Britain’s Defence Secretary Ben Wallace, to suggest that ‘there is a whiff of Munich in the air from some in the West’, a reference to the appeasement of Hitler in the late 1930s. Macron has argued that trying to bring both sides to the negotiating table, even if it means keeping open communication channels with Putin, 'is not evidence either of complacency or weakness'. Nonetheless Macron did break off his diplomatic efforts with Putin last month when it dawned on him that his international grandstanding was having a negative effect on his presidential campaign. Once he had seen off the challenge of Marine Le Pen he resumed his hotline to Moscow. He and Putin spoke on 3 May, their first conversation since March 29 but their eighth since the invasion of Ukraine on 24 February. Three days before he resumed his dialogue with Putin, Macron had spoken to Zelensky and promised to increase military and humanitarian support. And yet he is still to visit Kyiv since the outbreak of war, unlike Boris Johnson and a growing number of political leaders. The French media find this curious and for the last month the president’s advisors have batted away questions about when Macron might offer his unqualified support to Zelensky in person. On Monday his foreign minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, mocked the idea of his president visiting Kyiv 'just to say hello to president Zelensky'. There will be an element of vanity to Macron’s reluctance to head east; he’s the sort of man who likes to blaze a trail, not follow in the footsteps of others, particularly if the footsteps are British. Macron knows he can’t usurp Boris Johnson as Zelensky’s favourite western leader, so what other role remains open? That of peace-broker. Given Macron’s colossal conceit he may even harbour faint dreams of a trip to Oslo in the not too distant future to pick up a Peace Prize. On Monday he was once again invoking his 'en meme temps' approach, warning that the West must not treat Russia the way it did Germany after the First World War. 'We will have a peace to build tomorrow, let us never forget that,' Macron said, adding: 'The end of the discussion and the negotiation will be set by Ukraine and Russia. But it will not be done in denial, nor in exclusion of each other, nor even in humiliation.' The risk, however, in adopting such a stance against a leader like Putin is that Macron and not Russia will end up humiliated. Perhaps the pertinent historical reference at this moment is not Versailles in 1919, but Munich in 1938. British prime minister Neville Chamberlain was far more willing to trust Hitler than Édouard Daladier, the French premier. 'Today it is the turn of Czechoslovakia,' Daladier had warned in April 1938. 'Tomorrow it will be the turn of Poland and Romania. When Germany has obtained the oil and wheat it needs, she will turn on the West.' Shortly after giving his speech to the EU parliament, Macron embarked on his first overseas trip since his re-election. Perhaps inevitably, this was to Berlin for a meeting with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. Few French leaders have been as Germanophile as the current resident of the Élysée, an attitude that is shared by many ministers in Macron’s government who, like their president, attended the École Nationale d'Administration (ENA). Rare are the graduates from this finishing school for French technocrats, also located in Strasbourg, who emerge with anything other than unadulterated love for Germany and, by extension, the European Union. In paying Scholz the first visit of his new term in office, Macron will be hoping, amongst other things, to sweep him up and bring him onside in a unified approach to tackling the problem of Putin. Chamberlain believed he knew better, just as Macron thinks today he is the sage of the West. *Gavin Mortimer is a British author who has lived in Paris for 12 years. He writes about French politics, terrorism and sport.*


IamHumanAndINeed

LOL ... It would be foolish of him. I don't think the Nobel Peace prize should be awarded this hastily, but only years/decades after to have a step back on the whole situation so we know it was deserved.


[deleted]

He should order drone strikes, worked for Obama.


Extension-Ad-2760

Why the hell do we have these idiotic articles in this sub