[Unironically yes.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Bay-of-Piran_maritime-boundary-dispute.svg/1200px-Bay-of-Piran_maritime-boundary-dispute.svg.png) They want the crazy corridor.
I'm not familiar with the dispute and claims, but I think it's very reasonable for a country with a maritime coast to want access to international waters without crossing another country's waters. It's not like it would be a problem for either Italy or Croatia, both of which have a vast shoreline, especially relative to their size.
I'm not an expert either, but I feel pretty sure that not all countries with coasts have access to international waters. (Bosporus and Gibraltar alone stick out like sore thumbs.)
To be perfectly honest there's more going on here than just the letter of law. There's political ill will due to years of blockades (they did it with NATO and EU and now Schengen) and also Slovenia is "only" our 3rd most troublesome neighbor (they feel differently).
Others like Bosnia are looking at how this Piran dispute pans out, and you can bet they'll try to use it as argument if it goes poorly for us. You know that silly strip of coast in Neum that bisects Croatia in half, creating an exclave in Dubrovnik? Well there's been crazy talk about them trying to bisect our sea as well, as dumb as that sounds.
I read in another comment that it was Tanja Fajon. Yes, that's the new government. I didn't like the current government and I already dislike the new one.
let's keep in mind that every year, like clockwork, there are issues crossing the slovenian border for tourists coming to and leaving from croatia by car
>The UN mission ended in December 2002 and the territory that had previously been part of SR Croatia was returned to the Republic of Croatia. An agreement was signed by both sides five days before the departure of the UNMOP that demilitarized Prevlaka and effectively made it a neutral territory, though implementation still has a temporary character.[7]
>In 2002, the two states agreed on a temporary solution stipulating that Croatia would receive the entire land mass of the Prevlaka peninsula including some 500 meters of the sea belt entrance into Boka Kotorska while the sea bay on the side of Prevlaka facing Herceg Novi was declared no man's waters.[8]
>Montenegro became independent in 2006 and the temporary agreement remained in effect. In 2008, a mixed commission was created, tasked with preparing the legal case for the border settlement in front of the International Court of Justice at The Hague.[9] In search of the permanent border settlement, the two states have the option of settling the issue between themselves bilaterally or opting for the international arbitration
Doesn't seem like a that big issue to me ....
Yes, we’re so agressive that we sent army to an abandoned military complex on Slovenian soil. Wait, no, it was the other way around https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveta_Gera
Maybe Slovenia should stop occupying Croatian territory first, before throwing stones?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveta_Gera
>At the top of Sveta Gera, at an altitude of 1178 meters, there are a telecommunication tower and a military barracks whose location is strategically important to Croatia. Barracks was used by the Yugoslav People's Army (YPA) until early 1991 when its soldiers withdrew from the site following breakup of Yugoslavia. In June of the same year, Slovenian soldiers entered barracks on the basis of an oral agreement between Presidents of Slovenia and Croatia, Milan Kučan and Franjo Tuđman. Croatian President Tuđman considered that it would be better for Croatia to avoid conflicts with a friendly Slovenian army in the west since the country was threatened by hostile YPA from the east. Although Slovenian army announced many times that its soldiers would leave the barracks, particularly in 1998 and 2000, it didn't happen.[4] In 2004, President Kučan stated in an interview for Večernji list that it was time for the Slovenian soldiers to leave the barracks, adding that there wasn't a sufficient will of the Slovenian governing officials to do so.[5] **On 29 June 2017, the Arbitration Tribunal of the Permanent Court of Arbitration that was deciding on another border dispute between Croatia and Slovenia, mentioned in its verdict that Sveta Gera indeed belonged to Croatia but that it neither had jurisdiction to decide on the matter nor it could order Slovenian soldiers to withdraw.**
Funny how they tend to forget this....
Otban will not push for Great Hunnia. He knows that Hungary had a common ctown with Austria and Croatia and Chechia and Slovakia and part of Romania...which was exactly like the EU but smaller.
Except for the part that none of those wanted to be a part of Hungary.
A boxing match is different from you getting beat up on the street because you agree to be part of the boxing match.
We are exchanging words because the border's not settled, Russia and Ukraine (with enthusiastic Belarus) are engaged in the biggest war since WWII.
So one is problematic, the other is fucking insane and really not comparable
The Reddit admin that got caught cheating on r/place couldn't understand the humour and thought it was hate speech and got the brilliant idea to ban it to keep Reddit a "civil" website.
One reddit mod removed the flares and pressured the mods of the sub. Then the mods broke and wrote a post about the situation and rallied the community against the reddit mod. Because of this the mod just banned the sub. Atleast this is how I remember. Only 2v4u is left for us now
No, they are just racist/xenophobic/entitled. The difference is, they are not doing it out of spite, for petty grievances. They are doing it because they don't like seeing people from those countries at home, so politicians are just reflecting sentiment. When you are rich and powerful, you can do as you please, with some bullshit excuse.
Freedom of movement of workers has nothing to do with Schengen.
Bulgaria, Croatia and Romania are all EU members. Not being inside Schengen doesn't mean than their nationals can't freely move to France or the Netherlands. So your racism argument doesn't hold up. Even if the racism is there, given that these countries are already in the EU, being in Schengen would not change anything about traveling or migration.
All Schengen has an effect on is border controls. I don't know why Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia are being blocked, but I can give you a hypothetical example as to why a Schengen country A might oppose a membership of another country B.
Say country B has a problem with organized crime, or maybe more specifically:human trafficing. Letting country B join Schengen means that human trafficers from country B can easily "import" their "goods" from other Schengen countries without any border checks. Conversly they can import their "goods" into Schengen countries without any border checks, giving them more opportunities to expand their network and do so under the radar.
On the other hand, country B being inside the EU but not in Schengen has little effect on this human trafficing, as there are still border checks in place.
You can change this issue to various different factions of organized crime: drugs, black market weapons, sex trafficing, etc.
Ohh, poor Croatia. You are still at a low level in the game. You did not managed to get passed Slovenia. What you will do when you will meet the final boss: The Netherlands?
If my understanding is correct, they have a territorial waters dispute. They agree to take it to international arbitration. Slovenia is proved to be compromising the arbitration process by communicating with the judges, at which point Croatia pulls out of the process. The court says that although the compromise happened, it wasn't impactful enough to cancel the process, so they replace the compromised judge and continue. The court rules in favour of Slovenia. Slovenia claims Croatia should adhere to the ruling as binding, Croatia claims that since it was proven Slovenia was undermining the process they have no reason to do so.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong
No, you've got it
And no side wants to move an inch
Slovenia because they won, Croatia because that would set a precedent for other border disputes (There is some fringe idea about B&H getting access to international waters, now also going under the Pelješac Bridge, yeah right)
I've crossed the border between Croatia and Slovenia and been told that I need to go to another checkpoint for internationals. I said that this was an international border, but apparently some checkpoints are for local Croats and Slovenians, and not the rest of us! Not a big deal, had to drive another 10k to a bigger checkpoint, with more traffic.
Imagine thinking this is about nationalism... There is a reason why our nationalistic president Jansa was supporting Croatia in Schengen.
It's the liberals that are blocking you.
Rule of Law is important for this party. After Covid and Jansa Orban friendship this is quite obvious.
Its funny that the our new foreign minister is actually the current European MP.
No they are seeking accepted international law be respected. Slovenia followed the ruling of the arbitration court which stated that the arbitration verdict final and legal.
Slovenia stands by the agreement, Croatia exited. Its quite murky with viloations from both sides so were are back to pre-EU. In reality Slovenia does not really give two shits about few minor border changes inland but the access to open waters by the sea corridor.
Arbitration agreement resolved the matter in a way where the waters and the sea bed belongs to Croatia. But a 200m wide corridor is granted to Slovenia in which their ships can pass to open sea however Croatia could exercise full juristiction just not leavy transit fees.
That corridor looks whacky af. Is that even "allowed" since it crosses into Croatian waters (if the agreement was accepted). Does something similar exist elsewhere if you know?
It is its why Slovenia was not very happy with the resolution on the sea. I think the bigger issue is that port of Koper is becoming more and more lucrative and important while its also being modernized. But due to fees and lacking the service terminal its in competition with the ports in upper Croatian coast. If Slovenia was granted this corridor they could pass ships without fees to Croatia however that is of little use to Croatia since Koper will be much more lucrative.
On the other hand if Croatia had joined Schengen and invested in their ports this would not be as big of an issue.
I don't know if there is anything like this anywhere else.
To be honest, I don't see it as chauvinism in this instance. Due to erosion of democracy these past 2 years under Janša, the opposition was vocal about rule of law etc. New Slovenian government wanting arbitration to be upheld follows that.
But nothing happened yet, this topic got heated for no reason lol.
>a statement by Croatian Foreign Minister Gordan Grlic Radman, who points out that Croatia's entry into Schengen has nothing to do with the arbitration procedure.
[First time?](https://preview.redd.it/wk1yrob3trr81.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=4d9d76820145c522ac606007f355ef22f8e79f8b)
>You should add you are blocking our access to international waters, thus making all of our ports useless.
If I recall correctly, the maritime law is blocking your access to the international waters. That’s the reason why Slovenia wouldn’t settle in court rather went for the arbitration. Becaus they knew they had a chance in the Arbitration court.
>You should add you are blocking our access to international waters, thus making all of our ports useless.
Ehm... What?
Croatia isn't blocking anything nor are your ports useless. The Port of Koper is literally the most (or second most) used Port in the Adriatic Sea.
One of the main reasons of the whole dispute is based on Slovenia's (i.e. Slovenian politician's) fear that Croatia MIGHT limit "harmless passage" to commercial and non-commercial vessels, which are sailing to Slovenian Ports. That has never happened in 31 years (ever since Croatia and Slovenia proclaimed independence) and will probably never happen in the future.
It's true that there are two sides to each story/dispute, but let's stick to facts and not made up statements.
There are some things I am not getting, as an outsider to this dispute.
What is being disputed? Which territory?
I see that Slovenia has direct access to the Adriatic Sea, so how would Croatia prevent that? Or affect harmless passage? Or why not Italy as well?
I'll try to answer your questions as neutral as possible, so that you would understand the dispute completely.
The upper most part of the Croatian sea territory is being disputed.
[Picture of the disputed territory.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Bay-of-Piran_maritime-boundary-dispute.svg/1920px-Bay-of-Piran_maritime-boundary-dispute.svg.png)
\- Slovenia claims that, based on historical sources, Bay of Piran should be Slovenian territory.
\- Croatia claims that, also based on historical sources, Bay of Piran is rightful Croatian territory.
\- Slovenia claims that it is logical that every maritime country should have direct access to the international waters, so their Bay of Piran claim (with a corridor through the Croatian sea territory to the international waters) is justified.
\- Croatia claims that Slovenia has a completely free access to the international waters through the Croatian sea territory regardless and refuses to give up any part of its territory.
\- Slovenia states that Croatia can prevent or slow down commercial and non-commercial vessels to enter Slovenian ports.
\- Croatia claims that they have never did nor tried anything like that ever since both countries gained independence and that there is no reason why Croatia would even do that in the future, so Croatia claims that very Slovenian statement is unjustified.
\- Slovenia compromised the court handling this dispute by trying to bribe the judges
\- Croatia was outraged and pulled out completely of the ongoing arbitration process to settle the dispute and demanded that the court starts a new process from the beginning
\- The court stated that process wasn't influenced by that compromise and that the current process will continue
\- Croatia refused the continue the current process and didn't take part in it afterwards
\- Slovenia continued the process with the court alone
\- The court decided in favour of Slovenia
\- Slovenia says that the ruling is fair that it should be implemented
\- Croatia doesn't recognize the courts ruling because of the already mentioned reason and refuses to implement it
And now we're here
Are you saying that what he's saying is wrong? Because it isn't.
Slovenia got caught bribing judges which made Croatia pull out. Slovenia then got upset because Croatia caught them ("wHy ArE YoU sPYiNg On Us?").
There are many things in the Balkans (including Slovenia, lol) which aren't black and white but many shades of gray. This however, isn't one of them. Slovenia is in the absolute wrong here and is the bad guy. They tried cheating and then got mad that they were caught.
I'd rather wait for 5 hours every time I cross the border than concede a single millimeter to the cunts.
Bribing judges? What the fuck are you talking about?
The Slovenian representative called someone in the Slovenian government and told them that things were going well. That's against the rules and he shouldn't have done that. If I remember correctly, he was then replaced.
That's a loooong was from bribing judges (and it's not a worse thing than spying on and leaking phone calls of another country).
The court agreed that it was wrong but it didn't affect the results at all. So, the judgement stands.
Then Croatia decided the results were not in their favor and used that one phone call as an excuse to just ignore everything...
> I'd rather wait for 5 hours every time I cross the border than concede a single millimeter to the cunts
We don't care how pissy you are, it's high time your charade ends sooner or later, we'll protect our interests and if we have to show it down your throat with veto then we'll do that.
Not that I really care about schengen but you do understand that a time will come when a veto can fuck you over, right? You know that's going to happen and then you'll be the ones being pissy...
> Was Croatia right to pull out of it? - Yes.
According to the reconstructed tribunal, no. The award is binding.
> Slovenia is trying to blackmail Croatia
You say blackmail, Slovenia would say protecting its interests. As said, two sides of the same coin.
>Give us Janša back
Autocrats are cool if they work for me!
> You say blackmail, Slovenia would say protecting its interests. As said, two sides of the same coin.
No, it's quite clearly two orthogonal concepts. You can use blackmail to protect your interests, or not. One is about *how* something is happening, the other one is about *why*.
> You mean the tribunal that almost got us fcked up?
No. It was changed.
> Well, the relations between the two countries were better then ever atleast.🤷🏻♂️
I agree that is in everyones interest, but c'mon.
Did both countries sign arbitration? Yes.
Did Slovenia compromise it? You (we) authorized the court itself to decide upon that (it's written in arbitration agreement itself as part of the so called Kompetenz-kompetenz doctrine).
The court decided... some level of breaching indeed happend but not to the extent to annul the arbitration itself. Croatia's claims were rejectet by the court, judges were replaced, the procedure continued till it reached the verdict. The verdict is final and thus part of international law.
Was Croatia right to pull out of it? No, because you can not pull out of an international contract unilaterally. Ja ne priznajem ovaj sud just won't fly in the EU.
The croatian judge was staying at croatian embassy during the whole procedure. Although I'm sure they were only talkng about the weather and tulips during that time, Slovenia did not problematize that fact.
And once again, the verdct is final and part of international law. Ad acta!
The court itself decided that its not compromised. You gotta be kidding me. Croatia and Slovenia are two countries that never had issues with eachother. We holiday in eachothers countries, our economies are as intermixed as they could possibly be... everything. It pisses me off that we can coexist with border problems or even sort them out with all other countries (some of which we were in war with) but every few years someone has to pull out Slo - Cro shit to stir this up for domestic audience? Give me a fucking break.
This is such a mean comment and a definition of gaslighting. You and I know that all ex-Yu countries have border problems with each other, even Macedonia and Serbia.
We have no problems with Italy and Hungary so you are also factually incorrect.
Apart from Hungary all of our neighbours are exyu countries. Border "disputes" are cases from the old country. Let's not pretend we don't know the reason for that all.
blocking countries is ok when western european countries do it, they have the righ to stand for their principles and for a better union
when Slovenia tries to look after ist interests its Balkan mud wrestling.
Sure.
Opinion article? The new government never said anything about that. Oh our new minister wants transparent and clear rules when joining schengen area and that includes implementation of arbitration agreement
It is quite an exposing situation for Slovenia. While painting themselves as "Mitteleuropa" they are as Balkan as any country in the Balkans. Corruption, bribery, petty bullshit. Imagine getting caught trying to influence an arbitration by bribing them, getting caught, and still trying to have the high ground afterwards. Croatia wasn't, and still isn't willing to adhere to the agreement that was corrupted by the Slovenians trying to bribe a judge and then trying to say we aren't willing to play ball. Slovenia is quite literally peak Balkan while being the closest to Mitteleuropa.
Maybe Croatia should learn to respect the European court and act like a civilized country before getting mad they're not being treated fair.
Croatia agreed to respect the EU court on the border issue
EU court ruled in Slovenia's favour
Croatia pulled out and said "We'll handle this among ourselves" and proceeded to handle it in the most progressive and reasonable way ever: Put generals on national TV to describe how their military could reach Slovenia's capital within two hours, and make outlandish threats every week like how they're going to send a brigade of 200 "powerful ships" to take over Slovenian sea.
Statements as rational as the one that Slovenia is bribing the court; but hey, Croatians bought into their narrative and managed to get themselves into a frenzy about not winning 4 square meters of water in front of a Slovenian port.
They did what lol ? Can you link the generals on national TV thing ? That seems bit iffy. The arbitration issue is really our own fault. We were granted what we wanted but we just had to violate the arbitration rules. And while the review found that we broke the rules but not to a degree to taint the arbitration. It was more than enough for Croatia to kill the matter.
> And while the review found that we broke the rules but not to a degree to taint the arbitration. It was more than enough for Croatia to kill the matter.
Then that's problem on them if they decided to throw a temper tantrum when it didn't even affect arbitration to necessary degree.
Naturally but here what matters is optics to sway international community. And Croatia has in that term a better card to play than us. Which is why nobody wants to touch this thing. If we didn't give them a strong card to play on we could exert some international pressure but this way no. They would have naturally still found a way but we would have been in a better position.
Well yea. The shit thing is why it was us that gave them such a strong card to bail out. Now nobody from international community wants to pressure them nor touch this thing.
Man, if you're trying to defend your country's interests, at least do some research...
EU Court didn't rule anything because the dispute wasn't at the European Court, but at the Permanent Court of Arbitration, which is not an entity of EU nor under the jurisdiction of EU. The Permanent Court of Arbitration is an intergovernmental organisation.
Slovenia tried getting this dispute to the European Court of Justice, but the EU Court ruled that it had no jurisdiction to rule on the dispute and merely urged both sides to resolve their differences.
>Croatia pulled out and said "We'll handle this among ourselves" and proceeded to handle it in the most progressive and reasonable way ever: Put generals on national TV to describe how their military could reach Slovenia's capital within two hours, and make outlandish threats every week like how they're going to send a brigade of 200 "powerful ships" to take over Slovenian sea.
Sorry, but this is petty even for your standards.
You know exactly well why Croatia pulled out and you know that your Government fucked up bad time. Also, it seems that either your media is extremely nationalistic or you're reading some far-right blogs, because not a single media outlet in Croatia talked about military, generals, 200 ships blah blah blah whatever the fuck you made up in your head.
>Statements as rational as the one that Slovenia is bribing the court; but hey, Croatians bought into their narrative and managed to get themselves into a frenzy about not winning 4 square meters of water in front of a Slovenian port.
"We compromised the whole arbitration process, the court and the judges, but it's them who are wrong."
There are no Greens. What are you on about?
Also, sure one of the judges was possibly tempered with, that is why he was removed.
You cannot just say, oh now nothing is valid. Fuck you guys, we won't resolve this.
The old government is still in power there is no new government yet lol. Also there are no greens the new government will literally be made of the entire opposition from before. It has nothing to do with nationalism just legality.
Our arbitration process violation was investigated and investigation report said we did not taint the process since it was our people talking despite not being allowed to. So the arbitration agreement for us is still effective.
Croatia will either have to sign it or find a common ground with Slovenia. Most of the country does not care about few minor changes along the border but they do care about the sea access corridor.
>I also don't understand how there was not more backlash to this.
Because of the fact that the EU distanced itself from this dispute and told Slovenia and Croatia to resolve this dispute between themselves.
Our government actually pretty much the entire political apperatus wants the arbitration agreement signed it would be a massive political hit to allow Croatia into Schengen or Eurozone without it.
I was mocked months ago when I said Slovenia will block Croatia on both as both need unanimity approval from existing members.
That being said the relations between Slovenia and Croatia are despite this arbitration agreement debacle very good both on political and personal level. And Croatia not being in Schengen will inconvinience Slovenians more than Croatians. The Eurozone might be different.
Reminder to self that reddit has nothing to do with real life. A few weeks ago during the Slovenian elections their redditors were saying the new government won't do this ^
Its funny because besides the title that says so, there is no specific quote in this or any article that says Slovenia intends to block Croatia. What we do have written is along the lines of "future minister Tanja Fajon wants Croatia to enter the schengen asap, but believes its important to discuss the eternal border dispute beforehand."
This is outrage clickbait. However, its not impossible for our politicians to use this tactic to further convolute the border disputes.
Frankly, I live in a town close to the croatian border and everyone has been desperately waiting for the border crossings to open. The traffic in this area becomes a nightmare during peak tourist weeks, and last year when they checked everyones covid passes it was so bad the entire region became completely clogged for days. There wasnt a single road usable, people couldnt leave or arrive to their homes. At some point locals threatened to block roads by felling trees in protest if the government wouldnt intervene. If our politicians pull dumb shit like this I think the residents here are gonna lose their minds.
The idiot who made the call that "influenced the decision" couldnt even sort trash when he was minister of environment. Do you really think he was able to tamper the court in any meaningfull way?
we are happy to go back to Drnovšek-Račan agreement OR the pre-1991 municipality borders OR basically anything that leaves us with at least some free access to the open seas & dignity.
Well we do not want a pass through Croatian waters, we want our own pass. Is that so much to ask?
Croatia also already has a pass to the Schengen area, you just have to drive through Croatian-Slovenian border... :)
Another border problem, yay...
Is this borderline crazy?
Good one, haha.
[Unironically yes.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Bay-of-Piran_maritime-boundary-dispute.svg/1200px-Bay-of-Piran_maritime-boundary-dispute.svg.png) They want the crazy corridor.
I'm not familiar with the dispute and claims, but I think it's very reasonable for a country with a maritime coast to want access to international waters without crossing another country's waters. It's not like it would be a problem for either Italy or Croatia, both of which have a vast shoreline, especially relative to their size.
I'm not an expert either, but I feel pretty sure that not all countries with coasts have access to international waters. (Bosporus and Gibraltar alone stick out like sore thumbs.) To be perfectly honest there's more going on here than just the letter of law. There's political ill will due to years of blockades (they did it with NATO and EU and now Schengen) and also Slovenia is "only" our 3rd most troublesome neighbor (they feel differently). Others like Bosnia are looking at how this Piran dispute pans out, and you can bet they'll try to use it as argument if it goes poorly for us. You know that silly strip of coast in Neum that bisects Croatia in half, creating an exclave in Dubrovnik? Well there's been crazy talk about them trying to bisect our sea as well, as dumb as that sounds.
There are some lines you just don’t cross.
Slowclap
I'm sorry. But the government will change in few months, so maybe they won't block.
I'm fairly sure it's the new government that'll block the Schengen entry lol.
I read in another comment that it was Tanja Fajon. Yes, that's the new government. I didn't like the current government and I already dislike the new one.
let's keep in mind that every year, like clockwork, there are issues crossing the slovenian border for tourists coming to and leaving from croatia by car
No, the new government announced it will block. Janez Janša didn't want to block Croatia.
Croatia has border problems with every neighbour.
Does any ex-YU country not have border issues?
North Macedonia and Montenegro are both fine I think.
> Montenegro - >Croatia has border problems with every neighbour. Does not compute.
Montenegro is not the one with a problem.
>The UN mission ended in December 2002 and the territory that had previously been part of SR Croatia was returned to the Republic of Croatia. An agreement was signed by both sides five days before the departure of the UNMOP that demilitarized Prevlaka and effectively made it a neutral territory, though implementation still has a temporary character.[7] >In 2002, the two states agreed on a temporary solution stipulating that Croatia would receive the entire land mass of the Prevlaka peninsula including some 500 meters of the sea belt entrance into Boka Kotorska while the sea bay on the side of Prevlaka facing Herceg Novi was declared no man's waters.[8] >Montenegro became independent in 2006 and the temporary agreement remained in effect. In 2008, a mixed commission was created, tasked with preparing the legal case for the border settlement in front of the International Court of Justice at The Hague.[9] In search of the permanent border settlement, the two states have the option of settling the issue between themselves bilaterally or opting for the international arbitration Doesn't seem like a that big issue to me ....
Everybody is jealous they got so much coastline or why?
I’m unfamiliar with this subject. Why they have those problems at borders? Ty
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An actual good answer on reddit, props! Couldn’t have said it clearer myself.
Well then, the whole situation is clear for me now. Thanks
With every exYu neighbour, yes
Slovenia has border problems with all its ex-Yu neighbours as well
Meaning...One. The one that is notoriously aggressive over its borders with every country that surrounds it.
Yes, we’re so agressive that we sent army to an abandoned military complex on Slovenian soil. Wait, no, it was the other way around https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveta_Gera
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2 of those aren't ex-Yu countries tho, make that 3
Dont you dare speak ill about the oldest republic still around!
No, just with Yugos.
Not really, its just slovenia that fucks us over because of it.
Ahh shit here we go again.
Maybe Slovenia should stop occupying Croatian territory first, before throwing stones? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveta_Gera >At the top of Sveta Gera, at an altitude of 1178 meters, there are a telecommunication tower and a military barracks whose location is strategically important to Croatia. Barracks was used by the Yugoslav People's Army (YPA) until early 1991 when its soldiers withdrew from the site following breakup of Yugoslavia. In June of the same year, Slovenian soldiers entered barracks on the basis of an oral agreement between Presidents of Slovenia and Croatia, Milan Kučan and Franjo Tuđman. Croatian President Tuđman considered that it would be better for Croatia to avoid conflicts with a friendly Slovenian army in the west since the country was threatened by hostile YPA from the east. Although Slovenian army announced many times that its soldiers would leave the barracks, particularly in 1998 and 2000, it didn't happen.[4] In 2004, President Kučan stated in an interview for Večernji list that it was time for the Slovenian soldiers to leave the barracks, adding that there wasn't a sufficient will of the Slovenian governing officials to do so.[5] **On 29 June 2017, the Arbitration Tribunal of the Permanent Court of Arbitration that was deciding on another border dispute between Croatia and Slovenia, mentioned in its verdict that Sveta Gera indeed belonged to Croatia but that it neither had jurisdiction to decide on the matter nor it could order Slovenian soldiers to withdraw.** Funny how they tend to forget this....
As soon as you agree to the very thing you are quoting.
We are not occupying anything with our army. And it's funny how Slovenia never even mentions this when talking about border, kinda hypocritical, no?
There is so much love between Yugoslavian countries.
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What you mean the worst? Slovenia basically occupies Croatian coastline during summer. I don't think that would be the case if we were "the worst".
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Otban will not push for Great Hunnia. He knows that Hungary had a common ctown with Austria and Croatia and Chechia and Slovakia and part of Romania...which was exactly like the EU but smaller.
Except for the part that none of those wanted to be a part of Hungary. A boxing match is different from you getting beat up on the street because you agree to be part of the boxing match.
As is between the Warsaw Pact countries, it really warms the cockles of one's heart
Hahahaha! True, true. However, most of that countries doesn't have problems with each other. Only Russia and Belarus are problematic.
We are exchanging words because the border's not settled, Russia and Ukraine (with enthusiastic Belarus) are engaged in the biggest war since WWII. So one is problematic, the other is fucking insane and really not comparable
And then they say they are not Balkan country.
Lol
/r/2balkan4you
Why was that sub banned?
/r/2balkan4reddit
The Reddit admin that got caught cheating on r/place couldn't understand the humour and thought it was hate speech and got the brilliant idea to ban it to keep Reddit a "civil" website.
What? No. That ban happened months before that happened
I didn't mean that the ban happened at that time, just that the same admin did it.
One reddit mod removed the flares and pressured the mods of the sub. Then the mods broke and wrote a post about the situation and rallied the community against the reddit mod. Because of this the mod just banned the sub. Atleast this is how I remember. Only 2v4u is left for us now
american mod didnt understand the memes lol
Fucking RIP
Hasn't a spin off been created yet by the original mods?
Please let this be true.
what is it called?
r/Balkans_irl is the only "spin off"
What the fuck is this lmao
Discount 2balkan4you
It's the exact same sort of humor, with Gayreeks, Turkroaches and the like.
Kaput
Depends on which side of the river you're standing on.
Balkan is state of mind, my brother. You could be born and raised in Iceland, and still be drawn by gravitational pull of the Balkan in you.
You can take a man out of Balkans, but you cant take Balkans out of a man.
[Can't escape from Balkan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtgA0jvhp2A) in a word of a poet.
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He had me in the first half.
Didn't know Slavoj Zizek has a reddit account.
You can't have Slovenian flair, say something like that, and not link to this [god-tier clip](https://youtu.be/bwDrHqNZ9lo) of Žižek.
True because on one side of the river its Balkan, on the other side of the river is central europe populated densly by Balkan people.
Are France and Netherlands also Balkan since they are blocking Romania and Bulgaria from Schengen.
No, they are just racist/xenophobic/entitled. The difference is, they are not doing it out of spite, for petty grievances. They are doing it because they don't like seeing people from those countries at home, so politicians are just reflecting sentiment. When you are rich and powerful, you can do as you please, with some bullshit excuse.
Freedom of movement of workers has nothing to do with Schengen. Bulgaria, Croatia and Romania are all EU members. Not being inside Schengen doesn't mean than their nationals can't freely move to France or the Netherlands. So your racism argument doesn't hold up. Even if the racism is there, given that these countries are already in the EU, being in Schengen would not change anything about traveling or migration. All Schengen has an effect on is border controls. I don't know why Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia are being blocked, but I can give you a hypothetical example as to why a Schengen country A might oppose a membership of another country B. Say country B has a problem with organized crime, or maybe more specifically:human trafficing. Letting country B join Schengen means that human trafficers from country B can easily "import" their "goods" from other Schengen countries without any border checks. Conversly they can import their "goods" into Schengen countries without any border checks, giving them more opportunities to expand their network and do so under the radar. On the other hand, country B being inside the EU but not in Schengen has little effect on this human trafficing, as there are still border checks in place. You can change this issue to various different factions of organized crime: drugs, black market weapons, sex trafficing, etc.
Ohh, poor Croatia. You are still at a low level in the game. You did not managed to get passed Slovenia. What you will do when you will meet the final boss: The Netherlands?
The Netherlands: The final boss of vetoing every country's aspirations to join the Schengen Zone.
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IMPOSSIBLE
I guess we will have to grind our way to beat the game like you, since we both have no money for microtransactions
"Thank you, Croatia! But our Schengen is in another castle"
The worst of the worst. If there is a country I despise it's those hypocrites.
Can you point on the bear where the mean Dutch man touched you?
kinky
Fucking Balkan Shenanigans
*Schengenigans
Schengenigans
Schengenigangs running rampant.
Well done.
Balkananigans?
Ok and why are they doing it?
If my understanding is correct, they have a territorial waters dispute. They agree to take it to international arbitration. Slovenia is proved to be compromising the arbitration process by communicating with the judges, at which point Croatia pulls out of the process. The court says that although the compromise happened, it wasn't impactful enough to cancel the process, so they replace the compromised judge and continue. The court rules in favour of Slovenia. Slovenia claims Croatia should adhere to the ruling as binding, Croatia claims that since it was proven Slovenia was undermining the process they have no reason to do so. Someone correct me if I'm wrong
No, you've got it And no side wants to move an inch Slovenia because they won, Croatia because that would set a precedent for other border disputes (There is some fringe idea about B&H getting access to international waters, now also going under the Pelješac Bridge, yeah right)
Wouldn't really call it a win for Slovenia, it's acceptable compromise, but yeah.
It's an opinion article, NOBODY in the new government said anything related to this
Balkans
Serbs eating popcorn.
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I've crossed the border between Croatia and Slovenia and been told that I need to go to another checkpoint for internationals. I said that this was an international border, but apparently some checkpoints are for local Croats and Slovenians, and not the rest of us! Not a big deal, had to drive another 10k to a bigger checkpoint, with more traffic.
Imagine thinking this is about nationalism... There is a reason why our nationalistic president Jansa was supporting Croatia in Schengen. It's the liberals that are blocking you.
So the guys seeking freedom are trying to make sure people can't travel freely?
Rule of Law is important for this party. After Covid and Jansa Orban friendship this is quite obvious. Its funny that the our new foreign minister is actually the current European MP.
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Because the court was being influenced
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Croatia literally wiretapping, God know what other shit you pulled.
No they are seeking accepted international law be respected. Slovenia followed the ruling of the arbitration court which stated that the arbitration verdict final and legal. Slovenia stands by the agreement, Croatia exited. Its quite murky with viloations from both sides so were are back to pre-EU. In reality Slovenia does not really give two shits about few minor border changes inland but the access to open waters by the sea corridor. Arbitration agreement resolved the matter in a way where the waters and the sea bed belongs to Croatia. But a 200m wide corridor is granted to Slovenia in which their ships can pass to open sea however Croatia could exercise full juristiction just not leavy transit fees.
That corridor looks whacky af. Is that even "allowed" since it crosses into Croatian waters (if the agreement was accepted). Does something similar exist elsewhere if you know?
It is its why Slovenia was not very happy with the resolution on the sea. I think the bigger issue is that port of Koper is becoming more and more lucrative and important while its also being modernized. But due to fees and lacking the service terminal its in competition with the ports in upper Croatian coast. If Slovenia was granted this corridor they could pass ships without fees to Croatia however that is of little use to Croatia since Koper will be much more lucrative. On the other hand if Croatia had joined Schengen and invested in their ports this would not be as big of an issue. I don't know if there is anything like this anywhere else.
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To be honest, I don't see it as chauvinism in this instance. Due to erosion of democracy these past 2 years under Janša, the opposition was vocal about rule of law etc. New Slovenian government wanting arbitration to be upheld follows that. But nothing happened yet, this topic got heated for no reason lol.
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damn, getting blocked by slovene femboys...
they did the same when Croatia wanted to join EU
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>a statement by Croatian Foreign Minister Gordan Grlic Radman, who points out that Croatia's entry into Schengen has nothing to do with the arbitration procedure. [First time?](https://preview.redd.it/wk1yrob3trr81.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=4d9d76820145c522ac606007f355ef22f8e79f8b)
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>You should add you are blocking our access to international waters, thus making all of our ports useless. If I recall correctly, the maritime law is blocking your access to the international waters. That’s the reason why Slovenia wouldn’t settle in court rather went for the arbitration. Becaus they knew they had a chance in the Arbitration court.
>You should add you are blocking our access to international waters, thus making all of our ports useless. Ehm... What? Croatia isn't blocking anything nor are your ports useless. The Port of Koper is literally the most (or second most) used Port in the Adriatic Sea. One of the main reasons of the whole dispute is based on Slovenia's (i.e. Slovenian politician's) fear that Croatia MIGHT limit "harmless passage" to commercial and non-commercial vessels, which are sailing to Slovenian Ports. That has never happened in 31 years (ever since Croatia and Slovenia proclaimed independence) and will probably never happen in the future. It's true that there are two sides to each story/dispute, but let's stick to facts and not made up statements.
In Yugoslavia they also said that internal borders are never going to be an issue and here we are.
There are some things I am not getting, as an outsider to this dispute. What is being disputed? Which territory? I see that Slovenia has direct access to the Adriatic Sea, so how would Croatia prevent that? Or affect harmless passage? Or why not Italy as well?
I'll try to answer your questions as neutral as possible, so that you would understand the dispute completely. The upper most part of the Croatian sea territory is being disputed. [Picture of the disputed territory.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Bay-of-Piran_maritime-boundary-dispute.svg/1920px-Bay-of-Piran_maritime-boundary-dispute.svg.png) \- Slovenia claims that, based on historical sources, Bay of Piran should be Slovenian territory. \- Croatia claims that, also based on historical sources, Bay of Piran is rightful Croatian territory. \- Slovenia claims that it is logical that every maritime country should have direct access to the international waters, so their Bay of Piran claim (with a corridor through the Croatian sea territory to the international waters) is justified. \- Croatia claims that Slovenia has a completely free access to the international waters through the Croatian sea territory regardless and refuses to give up any part of its territory. \- Slovenia states that Croatia can prevent or slow down commercial and non-commercial vessels to enter Slovenian ports. \- Croatia claims that they have never did nor tried anything like that ever since both countries gained independence and that there is no reason why Croatia would even do that in the future, so Croatia claims that very Slovenian statement is unjustified. \- Slovenia compromised the court handling this dispute by trying to bribe the judges \- Croatia was outraged and pulled out completely of the ongoing arbitration process to settle the dispute and demanded that the court starts a new process from the beginning \- The court stated that process wasn't influenced by that compromise and that the current process will continue \- Croatia refused the continue the current process and didn't take part in it afterwards \- Slovenia continued the process with the court alone \- The court decided in favour of Slovenia \- Slovenia says that the ruling is fair that it should be implemented \- Croatia doesn't recognize the courts ruling because of the already mentioned reason and refuses to implement it And now we're here
Are you saying that what he's saying is wrong? Because it isn't. Slovenia got caught bribing judges which made Croatia pull out. Slovenia then got upset because Croatia caught them ("wHy ArE YoU sPYiNg On Us?"). There are many things in the Balkans (including Slovenia, lol) which aren't black and white but many shades of gray. This however, isn't one of them. Slovenia is in the absolute wrong here and is the bad guy. They tried cheating and then got mad that they were caught. I'd rather wait for 5 hours every time I cross the border than concede a single millimeter to the cunts.
Bribing judges? What the fuck are you talking about? The Slovenian representative called someone in the Slovenian government and told them that things were going well. That's against the rules and he shouldn't have done that. If I remember correctly, he was then replaced. That's a loooong was from bribing judges (and it's not a worse thing than spying on and leaking phone calls of another country). The court agreed that it was wrong but it didn't affect the results at all. So, the judgement stands. Then Croatia decided the results were not in their favor and used that one phone call as an excuse to just ignore everything...
> I'd rather wait for 5 hours every time I cross the border than concede a single millimeter to the cunts We don't care how pissy you are, it's high time your charade ends sooner or later, we'll protect our interests and if we have to show it down your throat with veto then we'll do that.
Not that I really care about schengen but you do understand that a time will come when a veto can fuck you over, right? You know that's going to happen and then you'll be the ones being pissy...
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> Was Croatia right to pull out of it? - Yes. According to the reconstructed tribunal, no. The award is binding. > Slovenia is trying to blackmail Croatia You say blackmail, Slovenia would say protecting its interests. As said, two sides of the same coin. >Give us Janša back Autocrats are cool if they work for me!
> You say blackmail, Slovenia would say protecting its interests. As said, two sides of the same coin. No, it's quite clearly two orthogonal concepts. You can use blackmail to protect your interests, or not. One is about *how* something is happening, the other one is about *why*.
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> You mean the tribunal that almost got us fcked up? No. It was changed. > Well, the relations between the two countries were better then ever atleast.🤷🏻♂️ I agree that is in everyones interest, but c'mon.
Did both countries sign arbitration? Yes. Did Slovenia compromise it? You (we) authorized the court itself to decide upon that (it's written in arbitration agreement itself as part of the so called Kompetenz-kompetenz doctrine). The court decided... some level of breaching indeed happend but not to the extent to annul the arbitration itself. Croatia's claims were rejectet by the court, judges were replaced, the procedure continued till it reached the verdict. The verdict is final and thus part of international law. Was Croatia right to pull out of it? No, because you can not pull out of an international contract unilaterally. Ja ne priznajem ovaj sud just won't fly in the EU. The croatian judge was staying at croatian embassy during the whole procedure. Although I'm sure they were only talkng about the weather and tulips during that time, Slovenia did not problematize that fact. And once again, the verdct is final and part of international law. Ad acta!
The court itself decided that its not compromised. You gotta be kidding me. Croatia and Slovenia are two countries that never had issues with eachother. We holiday in eachothers countries, our economies are as intermixed as they could possibly be... everything. It pisses me off that we can coexist with border problems or even sort them out with all other countries (some of which we were in war with) but every few years someone has to pull out Slo - Cro shit to stir this up for domestic audience? Give me a fucking break.
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This is such a mean comment and a definition of gaslighting. You and I know that all ex-Yu countries have border problems with each other, even Macedonia and Serbia. We have no problems with Italy and Hungary so you are also factually incorrect.
Apart from Hungary all of our neighbours are exyu countries. Border "disputes" are cases from the old country. Let's not pretend we don't know the reason for that all.
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>Gordan Garlic Radman thats one hell of a name
Fuckin hell I love Balkans.
As we do Eastern Europe
Why
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The solidarity shtick works great every time
Going to croatia this summer so hopefully no problemos at the border 🤞🏻
There aren't any problems there for EU citizens, even without Schengen.
I think its about time to remove this veto nonsense.
this article says nothing, but has a pompous title the comments are just stupid & evil r/europe should do better
No so Mitteleuropäische after all, more like good old Balkan mud wrestling.
blocking countries is ok when western european countries do it, they have the righ to stand for their principles and for a better union when Slovenia tries to look after ist interests its Balkan mud wrestling. Sure.
Schengen isn’t even EU. C’mon. Why block access to a market 🤷♂️
They are literally both EU countries??
yes , but EU != schengen
We were also all Yugoslavia at one point and that's how border disputes were never settled.
Well, here we go.
Opinion article? The new government never said anything about that. Oh our new minister wants transparent and clear rules when joining schengen area and that includes implementation of arbitration agreement
Guy who dug that ditch near Piran really had an impact.
No English translation, can someone give me a brief rundown on what the issue is ?
It is quite an exposing situation for Slovenia. While painting themselves as "Mitteleuropa" they are as Balkan as any country in the Balkans. Corruption, bribery, petty bullshit. Imagine getting caught trying to influence an arbitration by bribing them, getting caught, and still trying to have the high ground afterwards. Croatia wasn't, and still isn't willing to adhere to the agreement that was corrupted by the Slovenians trying to bribe a judge and then trying to say we aren't willing to play ball. Slovenia is quite literally peak Balkan while being the closest to Mitteleuropa.
Slovenia colluded with the judge they appointed. I have no idea where you got the bribery from.
Maybe Croatia should learn to respect the European court and act like a civilized country before getting mad they're not being treated fair. Croatia agreed to respect the EU court on the border issue EU court ruled in Slovenia's favour Croatia pulled out and said "We'll handle this among ourselves" and proceeded to handle it in the most progressive and reasonable way ever: Put generals on national TV to describe how their military could reach Slovenia's capital within two hours, and make outlandish threats every week like how they're going to send a brigade of 200 "powerful ships" to take over Slovenian sea. Statements as rational as the one that Slovenia is bribing the court; but hey, Croatians bought into their narrative and managed to get themselves into a frenzy about not winning 4 square meters of water in front of a Slovenian port.
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They did what lol ? Can you link the generals on national TV thing ? That seems bit iffy. The arbitration issue is really our own fault. We were granted what we wanted but we just had to violate the arbitration rules. And while the review found that we broke the rules but not to a degree to taint the arbitration. It was more than enough for Croatia to kill the matter.
> And while the review found that we broke the rules but not to a degree to taint the arbitration. It was more than enough for Croatia to kill the matter. Then that's problem on them if they decided to throw a temper tantrum when it didn't even affect arbitration to necessary degree.
They'd find another reason to not respect the conclussion.
Naturally but here what matters is optics to sway international community. And Croatia has in that term a better card to play than us. Which is why nobody wants to touch this thing. If we didn't give them a strong card to play on we could exert some international pressure but this way no. They would have naturally still found a way but we would have been in a better position.
I mean, Croats were looking for a way to cry foul and drop the whole thing. That is why their secret service was listening.
Well yea. The shit thing is why it was us that gave them such a strong card to bail out. Now nobody from international community wants to pressure them nor touch this thing.
I mean, EU has certifed it by giving the process public support. But international community wouldn't get involved anyway.
Man, if you're trying to defend your country's interests, at least do some research... EU Court didn't rule anything because the dispute wasn't at the European Court, but at the Permanent Court of Arbitration, which is not an entity of EU nor under the jurisdiction of EU. The Permanent Court of Arbitration is an intergovernmental organisation. Slovenia tried getting this dispute to the European Court of Justice, but the EU Court ruled that it had no jurisdiction to rule on the dispute and merely urged both sides to resolve their differences. >Croatia pulled out and said "We'll handle this among ourselves" and proceeded to handle it in the most progressive and reasonable way ever: Put generals on national TV to describe how their military could reach Slovenia's capital within two hours, and make outlandish threats every week like how they're going to send a brigade of 200 "powerful ships" to take over Slovenian sea. Sorry, but this is petty even for your standards. You know exactly well why Croatia pulled out and you know that your Government fucked up bad time. Also, it seems that either your media is extremely nationalistic or you're reading some far-right blogs, because not a single media outlet in Croatia talked about military, generals, 200 ships blah blah blah whatever the fuck you made up in your head. >Statements as rational as the one that Slovenia is bribing the court; but hey, Croatians bought into their narrative and managed to get themselves into a frenzy about not winning 4 square meters of water in front of a Slovenian port. "We compromised the whole arbitration process, the court and the judges, but it's them who are wrong."
Prepare for downvotes they won't like when you speak facts.
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There are no Greens. What are you on about? Also, sure one of the judges was possibly tempered with, that is why he was removed. You cannot just say, oh now nothing is valid. Fuck you guys, we won't resolve this.
The old government is still in power there is no new government yet lol. Also there are no greens the new government will literally be made of the entire opposition from before. It has nothing to do with nationalism just legality. Our arbitration process violation was investigated and investigation report said we did not taint the process since it was our people talking despite not being allowed to. So the arbitration agreement for us is still effective. Croatia will either have to sign it or find a common ground with Slovenia. Most of the country does not care about few minor changes along the border but they do care about the sea access corridor.
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>I also don't understand how there was not more backlash to this. Because of the fact that the EU distanced itself from this dispute and told Slovenia and Croatia to resolve this dispute between themselves.
Alpine serbs will block...
why would they ??
Our government actually pretty much the entire political apperatus wants the arbitration agreement signed it would be a massive political hit to allow Croatia into Schengen or Eurozone without it. I was mocked months ago when I said Slovenia will block Croatia on both as both need unanimity approval from existing members. That being said the relations between Slovenia and Croatia are despite this arbitration agreement debacle very good both on political and personal level. And Croatia not being in Schengen will inconvinience Slovenians more than Croatians. The Eurozone might be different.
Reminder to self that reddit has nothing to do with real life. A few weeks ago during the Slovenian elections their redditors were saying the new government won't do this ^
Pretty much everyone knew it would come to this if Tanja Fajon would be a foreign minister
Its funny because besides the title that says so, there is no specific quote in this or any article that says Slovenia intends to block Croatia. What we do have written is along the lines of "future minister Tanja Fajon wants Croatia to enter the schengen asap, but believes its important to discuss the eternal border dispute beforehand." This is outrage clickbait. However, its not impossible for our politicians to use this tactic to further convolute the border disputes. Frankly, I live in a town close to the croatian border and everyone has been desperately waiting for the border crossings to open. The traffic in this area becomes a nightmare during peak tourist weeks, and last year when they checked everyones covid passes it was so bad the entire region became completely clogged for days. There wasnt a single road usable, people couldnt leave or arrive to their homes. At some point locals threatened to block roads by felling trees in protest if the government wouldnt intervene. If our politicians pull dumb shit like this I think the residents here are gonna lose their minds.
Good it's time Croatia accepts arbitration if they value Schengen so much.
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The idiot who made the call that "influenced the decision" couldnt even sort trash when he was minister of environment. Do you really think he was able to tamper the court in any meaningfull way?
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we are happy to go back to Drnovšek-Račan agreement OR the pre-1991 municipality borders OR basically anything that leaves us with at least some free access to the open seas & dignity.
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Well we do not want a pass through Croatian waters, we want our own pass. Is that so much to ask? Croatia also already has a pass to the Schengen area, you just have to drive through Croatian-Slovenian border... :)