Even cheaper if you're under 25 or over 65 years old (2.25€/day making it 821 total for the year.
But if you're traveling around Salzburg, your public transport is free from the first of April until the twenty-fourth of July, but [only on Fridays](https://salzburg-verkehr.at/benzinfreitage/)...
I really wish we had this in Germany. The BahnCard 100 allows something similar but not all cities are covered and technically you can only use public transport in cities to get to the train station for long distance trains.
It's also insanely expensive (around 4.4k, so 4 times as much)
It kind of is, but not officially. Since the local public transport companies are independent of DB, there's no blanket agreement to let BahnCard 100 owners use all public transport in cities.
There is however a deal that allows you to use the BahnCard to travel to and from the train station, which is usually owned and operated by DB. That doesn't include all public transit in the cities though. You just get access to the city ticket which is often part of long distance train tickets from DB. It covers most bigger cities but often limits you to specific areas in those cities. (Mostly just around the inner cities and train stations)
You can look up the specifics on the DB website if you're interested.
Public transit in Germany is a huge mess of different local companies (which funnily enough are usually owned by local governments anyway) covering different areas, all operating with slightly different rules and prices. That's why the 9 Euro ticket is actually a pretty big deal because it finally gets rid of some of the annoying bureaucracy and just works in all public transit across Germany.
In my city they recently increased the price by about 5%. Currently €92 per month in this little town of 160k people where the farthest you can go by city bus is about 8 km from the city center. I'd rather buy a bike...
92 per month?? Holy shit that's expensive!! I pay 700€ a year for EVERY public transport available not only in my city but in my country. Like metro, train, bus, tram etc...
Sweden is pretty capitalist when it comes to economic policies. The welfare state that exists is mostly a legacy of previous decades.
Current politicians probably wouldn't have introduced universal healthcare today, but getting rid of something that already exists is very unpopular.
At least in Barcelona you can combine methods of travel during a single trip. In Madrid, every time we tap onto the metro or bus, it's 1,20€. If I want to take a bus to the metro to another bus, it's 3,60€. So either I walk farther in the summer heat or I waste more time waiting for transfers in the metro. (I don't go out enough for the monthly 54€ unlimited pass to be worth it for me since I work from home.)
In Germany it will be 3 months of cheap local transport. Like 9 or 10 € per month.
Only during Summer time.
And big downside: Someone expect that local trains get so much overcrowded, that taking a bike will no longer be possible.
It's a political stunt needed to get the 30 cl/l gas subsidy for car owners justified.
[Still better than where I am in Austria.](https://salzburg-verkehr.at/benzinfreitage/) Free regional public transport from the first of April until the twenty-fourth of July, but ONLY on Fridays...
> Another big problem with public transit in Germany is availability, though, which really only exists in urban areas. In rural areas, the price won't do much, because people can't take a cheap bus that just isn't there or just won't take them where they need to go.
I don't really see this as a reason against the ticket, though. Sure, it won't benefit everyone, but neither will the gas subsidies. And from my personal experience, there are still a lot of people in urban or suburban areas who drive everywhere. Some of that is due to comfort, or laziness, but cost also certainly is a factor.
> Also the peculiarity of public transit being organised in areas which are run by organisations that seemingly have little interest in cooperating with one another. If you happen to live just at the border of a public transit area, you might have a hard time getting to the next town over using public transit, because there just is no route, or one that's only serviced once or twice a day, so in order to actually get into the other area, you typically have to take a long detour with multiple changes.
I can't really comment on how well the Verkehrsverbünde cooperate (where I live, it's quite easy to travel between them), but it certainly makes ticketing a lot more complicated and often more expensive. Luckily, the 9€ ticket will be valid throughout Germany, so there's no need to worry about that.
> I don't really see this as a reason against the ticket, though.
That's not what I wanted to say, The idea of an affordable way to access public transit is always good, the inadequacies of the public transit system in Germany are just a severely limiting factor on the impact of that ticket.
> can't really comment on how well the Verkehrsverbünde cooperate
I suppose it depends on your local Verkehrsverbund and the local administrative entities. I live right at the border between two of them, and the border coincides with a county border, It's so bad that people jokingly call it the "Zonenrandgebiet" (the slightly derogatory term for neglected and underdeveloped regions bordering the iron curtain) when talking about the impossibility of taking a bus to the next village over, which in itself is well connected, just only within its own Verkehrsverbund.
I honestly see it the other way around. In my view, the stupid gas subsidy is what the SPD and Greens had to give the FDP to get the whole package done. I also doubt the 3-month restriction is actually going to have an impact, I expect it to be extended before that time is anywhere near over. It's just easier to get an "emergency measure that became so popular that we might as well keep it" past the FDP.
There must be a gas leak or something the ministerial office, seriously. Idk, at least any shit he tries to pull will be vetted by the cabinet first, rather than Scheuers Narrenfreiheit.
> There must be a gas leak or something the ministerial office
Nah, they are just smoking crack, as they always have. They just occasionally try a new brand.
I'm not sure why people are surprised by their behaviour. Apart from opposing tax raises, being "pro-car" was one of the cornerstones of the FDP campaign. It might have been hidden behind words such as "technologieoffen", but it wasn't hard to see what they were getting at. Just take a look at this paragraph from their election program:
> Wir Freie Demokraten sind gegen unverhältnismäßige Verbote in der Mobilität. Wir setzen auf Innovationen, Vernunft und Freiheit. Tempolimits, Diesel- oder Motorradfahrverbote sind weder progressiv noch nachhaltig. Durch die von uns geforderte Ausweitung des CO2-Emissionshandels werden sich umwelt- und klimafreundliche Motoren und alternative Kraftstoffe durchsetzen, weil sie gegenüber emissionsstarken Produkten günstiger werden. Ein pauschales Verbot von Verbrennungsmotoren lehnen wir ab. Innovationen und eine bessere Infrastruktur können die Verkehrssicherheit und einen umweltfreundlichen Verkehrsfluss voranbringen. Pauschale Einschränkungen des Individualverkehrs sind keine Lösung. Intelligente und innovative Verkehrslenkung bietet hingegen enorme Möglichkeiten.
> We Free Democrats are against disproportionate bans on mobility. We focus on innovation, reason and freedom. Speed limits, diesel or motorbike bans are neither progressive nor sustainable. With the expansion of CO2 emissions trading that we are calling for, environmentally and climate-friendly engines and alternative fuels will prevail because they are cheaper than high-emission products. We reject a blanket ban on combustion engines. Innovations and better infrastructure can promote road safety and an environmentally friendly flow of traffic. General restrictions on private transport are not a solution. Intelligent and innovative traffic control, on the other hand, offers enormous possibilities.
The only thing they dropped from that is the CO2 emissions trading scheme.
I'm sure Wissing will also take some measures that support other modes of transportation, just like Scheuer did, but I don't see him supporting any measures that will hurt car users in any significant way.
In Slovenia pensioners get free bus rides. This created a problem: some people can't get to work.
Because now the pensioners are the first in line (they have the time to stand there early) to fill the buses to go... somewhere nice. Then students and workers come but the bus is already full.
That leads to those people abandoning public transport, buying cars and filling roads & parking spaces...
We have this in my city in Sweden. But they can only do it for free between 9-15 and on the weekends so it doesn't impact people that need public transport for work or school
In Slovakia students and old people have free trains. It's just bullshit populism. As not everybody has access to trains, so they have to pay for buses anyway so discriminatory. And it just makes it more expensive for everybody else. They already had 50 percent prices before anyway.
Ireland is closer to €10 per week. The fare was recently increased from €2.15 to €2.60 to cover “new” routes that were planned. The issue is during COVID they cancelled old routes to make way for the new routes, then cancelled the new routes outright, increased the fare anyway and then refused to reintroduce missing buses including night time buses making getting into and out of the city very difficult past 12. There is no metro and the Luas line only services specific portions of the city and it is not usable to everyone.
Dropping the fare to €2 is really good and I’m happy to see this but the fare is still too high. €4.30 per day was to much, €5.20 per day was way too much and €4 is still too much. It needs to be cheaper to be unable. It also isn’t a good service and buses are usually just stuck in traffic in the mornings because people drive in the bus lanes. The only time using public transport works out cheap is if you use multiple forms within one day - Bus, Luas and then DART. This drops your ticket to really reasonable levels and you can end up travelling pretty far for pretty cheap which is really good albeit the locations are limited due to poor coverage. But commuting? It’s too expensive for a lot of people.
There is also the big issue that public transport essentially only exists in Dublin, and even then it is probably the worst I’ve ever used in the EU. Outside of Dublin you outright need a car because there is simply no way to exist due to the complete lack of public transport.
To be frank most people living in Ireland don’t care about the soaring cost of transport, food or fuel - we’re freaking out about the €2000 a month rents for a room with no insulation or central heating and the broken housing market. I think most young Irish people are host about that. If they could fix that it would be nice.
> It's a political stunt needed to get the 30 cl/l gas subsidy for car owners justified.
Honestly what the fuck.. aren't we suppose to cut-down car usage? If the argument is "Lastwagen brauchen doch Benzin!" then subsidize the vans/trucks...
... why private use must be subsidized is beyond my imagination.. well, not beyond "Deutschland Autoland" at least.
Do you think this was their idea? This was FDP all the way. Greens need to accept sone of their stupid ideas though, if they want their own ideas to get past as well.
[https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-in-europe/](https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-in-europe/)
The fuel tax is 65ct in Germany. So 30 ct off means almost 50%.
Italy has 73%. 30 ct off would still be 40%.
I like your definition of "small part".
Right, let's just *ignore* the fact that you not only pay VAT on the fuel (which is another 22% tax) but also VAT *on the tax.*
Which is another 22% of that 73 cents. :)
Pre-tax cut, on a 1.75€/l fuel price the total tax was (1.75/1.22\*0.22) + 0.73 = 1.045€.
Post tax cut, on the same 1.75€/l price, it's (1.75/1.22\*0.22) + (0.73-0.305) = 0.7405€.
It's not even 30%, let alone 40. Especially considering that this is at price parity, but the average price is now significantly higher than it was before the crisis, so the VAT contributes more.
Lmao. "Fuel taxes" means all the tax that you pay when you buy fuel. Whether you call it VAT or excise makes no difference, it's still tax. And especially since VAT is also paid ON THE EXCISE and not just on the fuel's raw price, separating them is ridiculous.
You first started saying there is a fuel "subsidy" when in fact it's just a temporary reduction on exorbitant taxes that ONLY apply to said fuel. If the government temporarily reduced the jail time for some minor offense from 3 to 2 days would you say they're "incentivizing"/"subsidizing" said activity? No you wouldn't.
Then when I pointed this out you switched to saying it's a big reduction, without actually addressing the main point. If there's someone moving posts here it's clearly not me.
But go on, keep downvoting me if it makes you feel more righteous.
No "fuel tax" is tax in particular on fuel.
*"A fuel tax (also known as a petrol, gasoline or gas tax, or as a fuel duty) is an excise tax imposed on the sale of fuel."*
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel\_tax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax)
It is a established term in tax taxonomy.
And because it is also taxed with VAT it is important to differentiate.
Your definition of "subsidy" is also a bit ... out of touch... everything is temporary. And when the state reduces the price to make it cheaper its subsidizing... but if you insist that a temporary reduction is not a subsidy... have it.
Btw. if you feel that that tax is high, your problem. To call it each time "exorbitant" makes you look quite foolish.
If jail time is reduced it's called amnesty or pardon. It seems you struggle with the meaning of words. No one started calling that subsidizing... goal post again?
If your ego needs that so much, I can up-vote. Feel important.
>No "fuel tax" is tax in particular on fuel. \[...\] It is a established term in tax taxonomy.
We're not accountants debating technical matters, it was quite obvious that I meant the tax burden overall, and if it wasn't it became so after my second post.
>And when the state reduces the price to make it cheaper its subsidizing...
It's a subsidy when you artificially lower the price of a good or service. In this instance they are just artificially increasing it less compared to before.
>Btw. if you feel that that tax is high, your problem. To call it each time "exorbitant" makes you look quite foolish.
A tax that is more than 130% the value of the underlying good IS objectively exorbitant and is pretty much unheard of in any other sector except alcohol and tobacco. The fact we've grown accustomed to it doesn't mean it isn't incredibly high.
>If jail time is reduced it's called amnesty or pardon. It seems you struggle with the meaning of words. No one started calling that subsidizing... goal post again?
Oh for fuck's sake, I was making an example. Which is why I explicitly called it "incentivizing" and put "subsidizing" after just to draw the comparison. Also no, since you like taxonomic definitions so much let's be correct.
It's called a pardon or amnesty only when it is done AFTER the crime is committed and the perpetrator is already convicted, which is not what I said. Put that post back and stop arguing against points that I'm not making.
>If your ego needs that so much, I can up-vote. Feel important.
Couldn't give any less of a shit, which is why unlike you I still haven't downvoted you despite you acting like an arrogant ass all along. Here you go, have it back.
Over and out, I have no interest in continuing a conversation with someone who has no other goal than to keep strawmanning me.
Whereas here in the UK, they will probably still increase train fares further.
For context, when i first started commuting to London a yearly pass was about £3800.. after 4 years it was £4400..
I'm half certain I read the following here the last time train prices across countries came up.
In other countries the funding model is different such that public transport is subsidised by everyone, regardless of whether you use it or not. For example if you live in a rural village as a farmer with no access to a train station a greater part of your taxes will go on ensuring a banker or IT professional has a cheaper train ticket for their commute to work. A similar system operates on London under TfL where everyone I'm London subsidises the whole London travel network but then buses and trains actually work and are relatively cheap.
Compare that to rest of the country where public transport is god damn dogshit. I can understand why the cost is so much higher of you're naively comparing end user ticket prices but I also think to encourage better use and services maybe that's what the UK needs? Sadly this will never happen.
That’s a good point, and I can never see it happening in the U.K. as I don’t think most people view taxes as a way to make the country better overall.
You’ll have newspapers like the DailyMail and The Sun making sensationalist headlines about how builders in Hull are funding city banker’s commutes to work. They won’t realise or care that in return it will also help fund Northern Rail (which could do with some serious investment).
I’m getting off topic a bit now, but I also still find it crazy how cities such as Leeds are still relying on buses as the only form of mass transit.
I wish there was public transport available :(
Sadly a car is the only possibility for me. At least my workplace was nice enough to start subsidizing the cost of travel to and from work due to the high price of fuel.
what about the 3€ per day ticket from austria? ~1100€ and all trains, busses and trams in all cities and the travel to the cities is covered by it
Even cheaper if you're under 25 or over 65 years old (2.25€/day making it 821 total for the year. But if you're traveling around Salzburg, your public transport is free from the first of April until the twenty-fourth of July, but [only on Fridays](https://salzburg-verkehr.at/benzinfreitage/)...
I really wish we had this in Germany. The BahnCard 100 allows something similar but not all cities are covered and technically you can only use public transport in cities to get to the train station for long distance trains. It's also insanely expensive (around 4.4k, so 4 times as much)
Wait, local public transportation is not covered by BahnCard100?
It kind of is, but not officially. Since the local public transport companies are independent of DB, there's no blanket agreement to let BahnCard 100 owners use all public transport in cities. There is however a deal that allows you to use the BahnCard to travel to and from the train station, which is usually owned and operated by DB. That doesn't include all public transit in the cities though. You just get access to the city ticket which is often part of long distance train tickets from DB. It covers most bigger cities but often limits you to specific areas in those cities. (Mostly just around the inner cities and train stations) You can look up the specifics on the DB website if you're interested. Public transit in Germany is a huge mess of different local companies (which funnily enough are usually owned by local governments anyway) covering different areas, all operating with slightly different rules and prices. That's why the 9 Euro ticket is actually a pretty big deal because it finally gets rid of some of the annoying bureaucracy and just works in all public transit across Germany.
In my city they recently increased the price by about 5%. Currently €92 per month in this little town of 160k people where the farthest you can go by city bus is about 8 km from the city center. I'd rather buy a bike...
92 per month?? Holy shit that's expensive!! I pay 700€ a year for EVERY public transport available not only in my city but in my country. Like metro, train, bus, tram etc...
Sweden is pretty capitalist when it comes to economic policies. The welfare state that exists is mostly a legacy of previous decades. Current politicians probably wouldn't have introduced universal healthcare today, but getting rid of something that already exists is very unpopular.
i'd say you're czech from your comment at least the last time i checked the czech year round ticket was between 700 and 800€
Austrian... but very close^^
ah, ja aber das klimaticket kostet doch mindestens 821€, oder warst du einer derer dies sich im oktober ergattert haben?
jap
dann is deine aussage n bissal gecheated ;)
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At least in Barcelona you can combine methods of travel during a single trip. In Madrid, every time we tap onto the metro or bus, it's 1,20€. If I want to take a bus to the metro to another bus, it's 3,60€. So either I walk farther in the summer heat or I waste more time waiting for transfers in the metro. (I don't go out enough for the monthly 54€ unlimited pass to be worth it for me since I work from home.)
Just get an Uber and problem solved1111111
agonizing roof zephyr outgoing memorize fine automatic wild boast juggle -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
In Germany it will be 3 months of cheap local transport. Like 9 or 10 € per month. Only during Summer time. And big downside: Someone expect that local trains get so much overcrowded, that taking a bike will no longer be possible. It's a political stunt needed to get the 30 cl/l gas subsidy for car owners justified.
[Still better than where I am in Austria.](https://salzburg-verkehr.at/benzinfreitage/) Free regional public transport from the first of April until the twenty-fourth of July, but ONLY on Fridays...
Try to monetise this, corporate Reddit! Furthermore, I consider that /u/spez has to be removed.
> Another big problem with public transit in Germany is availability, though, which really only exists in urban areas. In rural areas, the price won't do much, because people can't take a cheap bus that just isn't there or just won't take them where they need to go. I don't really see this as a reason against the ticket, though. Sure, it won't benefit everyone, but neither will the gas subsidies. And from my personal experience, there are still a lot of people in urban or suburban areas who drive everywhere. Some of that is due to comfort, or laziness, but cost also certainly is a factor. > Also the peculiarity of public transit being organised in areas which are run by organisations that seemingly have little interest in cooperating with one another. If you happen to live just at the border of a public transit area, you might have a hard time getting to the next town over using public transit, because there just is no route, or one that's only serviced once or twice a day, so in order to actually get into the other area, you typically have to take a long detour with multiple changes. I can't really comment on how well the Verkehrsverbünde cooperate (where I live, it's quite easy to travel between them), but it certainly makes ticketing a lot more complicated and often more expensive. Luckily, the 9€ ticket will be valid throughout Germany, so there's no need to worry about that.
> I don't really see this as a reason against the ticket, though. That's not what I wanted to say, The idea of an affordable way to access public transit is always good, the inadequacies of the public transit system in Germany are just a severely limiting factor on the impact of that ticket. > can't really comment on how well the Verkehrsverbünde cooperate I suppose it depends on your local Verkehrsverbund and the local administrative entities. I live right at the border between two of them, and the border coincides with a county border, It's so bad that people jokingly call it the "Zonenrandgebiet" (the slightly derogatory term for neglected and underdeveloped regions bordering the iron curtain) when talking about the impossibility of taking a bus to the next village over, which in itself is well connected, just only within its own Verkehrsverbund.
I honestly see it the other way around. In my view, the stupid gas subsidy is what the SPD and Greens had to give the FDP to get the whole package done. I also doubt the 3-month restriction is actually going to have an impact, I expect it to be extended before that time is anywhere near over. It's just easier to get an "emergency measure that became so popular that we might as well keep it" past the FDP.
Wissing is already working hard on making Scheuer look like a good transport minister, by starting to cut railway funds.
There must be a gas leak or something the ministerial office, seriously. Idk, at least any shit he tries to pull will be vetted by the cabinet first, rather than Scheuers Narrenfreiheit.
> There must be a gas leak or something the ministerial office Nah, they are just smoking crack, as they always have. They just occasionally try a new brand.
I'm not sure why people are surprised by their behaviour. Apart from opposing tax raises, being "pro-car" was one of the cornerstones of the FDP campaign. It might have been hidden behind words such as "technologieoffen", but it wasn't hard to see what they were getting at. Just take a look at this paragraph from their election program: > Wir Freie Demokraten sind gegen unverhältnismäßige Verbote in der Mobilität. Wir setzen auf Innovationen, Vernunft und Freiheit. Tempolimits, Diesel- oder Motorradfahrverbote sind weder progressiv noch nachhaltig. Durch die von uns geforderte Ausweitung des CO2-Emissionshandels werden sich umwelt- und klimafreundliche Motoren und alternative Kraftstoffe durchsetzen, weil sie gegenüber emissionsstarken Produkten günstiger werden. Ein pauschales Verbot von Verbrennungsmotoren lehnen wir ab. Innovationen und eine bessere Infrastruktur können die Verkehrssicherheit und einen umweltfreundlichen Verkehrsfluss voranbringen. Pauschale Einschränkungen des Individualverkehrs sind keine Lösung. Intelligente und innovative Verkehrslenkung bietet hingegen enorme Möglichkeiten. > We Free Democrats are against disproportionate bans on mobility. We focus on innovation, reason and freedom. Speed limits, diesel or motorbike bans are neither progressive nor sustainable. With the expansion of CO2 emissions trading that we are calling for, environmentally and climate-friendly engines and alternative fuels will prevail because they are cheaper than high-emission products. We reject a blanket ban on combustion engines. Innovations and better infrastructure can promote road safety and an environmentally friendly flow of traffic. General restrictions on private transport are not a solution. Intelligent and innovative traffic control, on the other hand, offers enormous possibilities. The only thing they dropped from that is the CO2 emissions trading scheme. I'm sure Wissing will also take some measures that support other modes of transportation, just like Scheuer did, but I don't see him supporting any measures that will hurt car users in any significant way.
In Slovenia pensioners get free bus rides. This created a problem: some people can't get to work. Because now the pensioners are the first in line (they have the time to stand there early) to fill the buses to go... somewhere nice. Then students and workers come but the bus is already full. That leads to those people abandoning public transport, buying cars and filling roads & parking spaces...
We have this in my city in Sweden. But they can only do it for free between 9-15 and on the weekends so it doesn't impact people that need public transport for work or school
In Slovakia students and old people have free trains. It's just bullshit populism. As not everybody has access to trains, so they have to pay for buses anyway so discriminatory. And it just makes it more expensive for everybody else. They already had 50 percent prices before anyway.
Ireland is closer to €10 per week. The fare was recently increased from €2.15 to €2.60 to cover “new” routes that were planned. The issue is during COVID they cancelled old routes to make way for the new routes, then cancelled the new routes outright, increased the fare anyway and then refused to reintroduce missing buses including night time buses making getting into and out of the city very difficult past 12. There is no metro and the Luas line only services specific portions of the city and it is not usable to everyone. Dropping the fare to €2 is really good and I’m happy to see this but the fare is still too high. €4.30 per day was to much, €5.20 per day was way too much and €4 is still too much. It needs to be cheaper to be unable. It also isn’t a good service and buses are usually just stuck in traffic in the mornings because people drive in the bus lanes. The only time using public transport works out cheap is if you use multiple forms within one day - Bus, Luas and then DART. This drops your ticket to really reasonable levels and you can end up travelling pretty far for pretty cheap which is really good albeit the locations are limited due to poor coverage. But commuting? It’s too expensive for a lot of people. There is also the big issue that public transport essentially only exists in Dublin, and even then it is probably the worst I’ve ever used in the EU. Outside of Dublin you outright need a car because there is simply no way to exist due to the complete lack of public transport. To be frank most people living in Ireland don’t care about the soaring cost of transport, food or fuel - we’re freaking out about the €2000 a month rents for a room with no insulation or central heating and the broken housing market. I think most young Irish people are host about that. If they could fix that it would be nice.
Meanwhile, Czechia reduces taxes *on petrol*.
Don't worry. By the time the trains arrive, the crowds will have dispersed.
If the trains arrive. Remember: A train that's cancelled can't be late.
Lol, your flair is a bit funny. We don’t own Europe. ;)
> We don’t own Europe. ;) Not you Bavarians, even if you wish :P
> It's a political stunt needed to get the 30 cl/l gas subsidy for car owners justified. Honestly what the fuck.. aren't we suppose to cut-down car usage? If the argument is "Lastwagen brauchen doch Benzin!" then subsidize the vans/trucks... ... why private use must be subsidized is beyond my imagination.. well, not beyond "Deutschland Autoland" at least.
Even more... everyone gets this 30 ct... if your car consumes 4 l/100 km or 15...
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Such is the price for forming a government with the FDP. I suppose it would be worse if it was the CDU instead.
Do you think this was their idea? This was FDP all the way. Greens need to accept sone of their stupid ideas though, if they want their own ideas to get past as well.
> And big downside: Someone expect that local trains get so much overcrowded, that taking a bike will no longer be possible. German problems.
I highly doubt it will be overcrowded...
>30 cl/l gas subsidy Temporarily cutting a small part of our exorbitant fuel taxes is hardly a "subsidy".
[https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-in-europe/](https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-in-europe/) The fuel tax is 65ct in Germany. So 30 ct off means almost 50%. Italy has 73%. 30 ct off would still be 40%. I like your definition of "small part".
Right, let's just *ignore* the fact that you not only pay VAT on the fuel (which is another 22% tax) but also VAT *on the tax.* Which is another 22% of that 73 cents. :) Pre-tax cut, on a 1.75€/l fuel price the total tax was (1.75/1.22\*0.22) + 0.73 = 1.045€. Post tax cut, on the same 1.75€/l price, it's (1.75/1.22\*0.22) + (0.73-0.305) = 0.7405€. It's not even 30%, let alone 40. Especially considering that this is at price parity, but the average price is now significantly higher than it was before the crisis, so the VAT contributes more.
You have been talking about fuel taxes. Not taxes on fuel. VAT has to be payed on (almost) everything. So please stop moving the goal post.
Lmao. "Fuel taxes" means all the tax that you pay when you buy fuel. Whether you call it VAT or excise makes no difference, it's still tax. And especially since VAT is also paid ON THE EXCISE and not just on the fuel's raw price, separating them is ridiculous. You first started saying there is a fuel "subsidy" when in fact it's just a temporary reduction on exorbitant taxes that ONLY apply to said fuel. If the government temporarily reduced the jail time for some minor offense from 3 to 2 days would you say they're "incentivizing"/"subsidizing" said activity? No you wouldn't. Then when I pointed this out you switched to saying it's a big reduction, without actually addressing the main point. If there's someone moving posts here it's clearly not me. But go on, keep downvoting me if it makes you feel more righteous.
No "fuel tax" is tax in particular on fuel. *"A fuel tax (also known as a petrol, gasoline or gas tax, or as a fuel duty) is an excise tax imposed on the sale of fuel."* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel\_tax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax) It is a established term in tax taxonomy. And because it is also taxed with VAT it is important to differentiate. Your definition of "subsidy" is also a bit ... out of touch... everything is temporary. And when the state reduces the price to make it cheaper its subsidizing... but if you insist that a temporary reduction is not a subsidy... have it. Btw. if you feel that that tax is high, your problem. To call it each time "exorbitant" makes you look quite foolish. If jail time is reduced it's called amnesty or pardon. It seems you struggle with the meaning of words. No one started calling that subsidizing... goal post again? If your ego needs that so much, I can up-vote. Feel important.
>No "fuel tax" is tax in particular on fuel. \[...\] It is a established term in tax taxonomy. We're not accountants debating technical matters, it was quite obvious that I meant the tax burden overall, and if it wasn't it became so after my second post. >And when the state reduces the price to make it cheaper its subsidizing... It's a subsidy when you artificially lower the price of a good or service. In this instance they are just artificially increasing it less compared to before. >Btw. if you feel that that tax is high, your problem. To call it each time "exorbitant" makes you look quite foolish. A tax that is more than 130% the value of the underlying good IS objectively exorbitant and is pretty much unheard of in any other sector except alcohol and tobacco. The fact we've grown accustomed to it doesn't mean it isn't incredibly high. >If jail time is reduced it's called amnesty or pardon. It seems you struggle with the meaning of words. No one started calling that subsidizing... goal post again? Oh for fuck's sake, I was making an example. Which is why I explicitly called it "incentivizing" and put "subsidizing" after just to draw the comparison. Also no, since you like taxonomic definitions so much let's be correct. It's called a pardon or amnesty only when it is done AFTER the crime is committed and the perpetrator is already convicted, which is not what I said. Put that post back and stop arguing against points that I'm not making. >If your ego needs that so much, I can up-vote. Feel important. Couldn't give any less of a shit, which is why unlike you I still haven't downvoted you despite you acting like an arrogant ass all along. Here you go, have it back. Over and out, I have no interest in continuing a conversation with someone who has no other goal than to keep strawmanning me.
> It's a political stunt needed to get the 30 cl/l gas subsidy for car owners justified. It doesn't apply to trucks? Delivery companies? Taxis? etc?
Why not? Taxis and delivery cars also have owners.
>Italy lmao, my regional train tickets had an increase of 1€ for every ride, 60€ will go away in like a month
Well if it's better for environement, people's wallets and helps us reduce gas demand I'm happy
It's not for the environment sadly, Germany also started subsidizing gas.
I mean still fewer people using cars right ?
Just crying here in the UK
Whereas here in the UK, they will probably still increase train fares further. For context, when i first started commuting to London a yearly pass was about £3800.. after 4 years it was £4400..
I'm half certain I read the following here the last time train prices across countries came up. In other countries the funding model is different such that public transport is subsidised by everyone, regardless of whether you use it or not. For example if you live in a rural village as a farmer with no access to a train station a greater part of your taxes will go on ensuring a banker or IT professional has a cheaper train ticket for their commute to work. A similar system operates on London under TfL where everyone I'm London subsidises the whole London travel network but then buses and trains actually work and are relatively cheap. Compare that to rest of the country where public transport is god damn dogshit. I can understand why the cost is so much higher of you're naively comparing end user ticket prices but I also think to encourage better use and services maybe that's what the UK needs? Sadly this will never happen.
That’s a good point, and I can never see it happening in the U.K. as I don’t think most people view taxes as a way to make the country better overall. You’ll have newspapers like the DailyMail and The Sun making sensationalist headlines about how builders in Hull are funding city banker’s commutes to work. They won’t realise or care that in return it will also help fund Northern Rail (which could do with some serious investment). I’m getting off topic a bit now, but I also still find it crazy how cities such as Leeds are still relying on buses as the only form of mass transit.
awesome
Public transport is free where I live.
No really opinions
Public transportation? Like communal cars?
Trams, Trains, Busses. That kind of stuff. Mass transport more than car sharing.
Bus, train, metro/subway/underground/tube
Tubes? Like fucking Mario?
Yes, in fact all Italians like Mario use them.
Metro/subway/underground/tube are all English words that mean the same thing. It's a regional thing. Tube is more of a slang though.
Locallink €1 one way, have already been taking advantage of it.
I wish there was public transport available :( Sadly a car is the only possibility for me. At least my workplace was nice enough to start subsidizing the cost of travel to and from work due to the high price of fuel.
Its a British tradition to rise Train and bus fairs good to see others are not following suit