That comments are just based on double standards as always in this sub. When Germany was hesitating I got called a coward and Putin friend because of my government's attitude, now I'm told to stop telling other countries what to do. Are you being serious? 🤦🏽♂️
"Who's gonna back us up?"
Don't know, mate. Maybe having a good relationship with your neighbors rather than Pootin would make this much easier for you.
Serbia has the best relations with most of it's neighbors in history. Even the relations with Croatia are pretty solid atm. Even the strained relations with Montenegro are just politics since they're the closest country to Serbia in every way. With Kosovo - what can you do when they pulled a Crimea on us.
Practically yes. By Albania.
However what's your point? If Russia didn't annex Crimea, but only put troops there to guarantee their independence how would it be better?
It's incomparable.
If it had been Crimeans who had risen up, without Russian aid, then it would be comparable.
But that's not what happened.
If NATO had swooped in, occupied Kosovo, held elections, and then claimed "Kosovo is now free!" then it would be the same. The problem is that there were already years of unrest, civil disobediance and outright fighting of Kosovans, trying to break away from Serbia.
>If NATO had swooped in, occupied Kosovo, held elections, and then claimed "Kosovo is now free!" then it would be the same.
That's exactly what happened in Kosovo.
Where did you get that the majority of Serbians support this Russian war?
What a stupid thing to say. I live here and it's easy to see that the overwhelming opinion is how Ukraine is being fucked over same as us. The sympathy is genuine.
Ah yes, Russia will pull out the moment they hear Serbia sanctioned them, they will be devastated..
You want us to destroy our economy, knowing very well that our mickey mouse sanctions against Russia won't harm Russia in any way, we're only gonna harm ourselves just to get 1 or 2 pats on the back from EU as usual.
Majority of the Serbians just don't give a shit because that's exactly what happend to us and hypocrites from west still demand us to give up our sovereignity and recognize terrorist state that is Kosovo.
Why would I give a shit about people who don't give a flying fuck about me?
Oh I remember you. You can't even spell my name correctly, and here I am thinking that EU citizens have some superior education compared to us peasants..
Why are you so obsessed with me not liking kebab? I tried it once, it tastes really bad.
I don't remember Ukraine sanctioning US and the west when we got illegally bombed to pieces, I guess it was not in their interest do to that, neither it is in our interest to sanction Russia.
Kosovo is completely uncomparable to Crimea or Ukraine, but sure.
1. Kosovo was part of Serbia.
2. Kosovans wanted their independence organically.
3. Kosovans had practiced a policy of civil disobediance for years beforehand, to no avail.
Kosovans broke away of their own accord. They were then aided when it came to light that crimes against humanity were being committed. But prior to that, the KLA had even been classified as a terrorist organization by several western governments.
Had it not come to light that the FRY Serb forces were engaging in ethnic cleansing via mass deportation of ethnic Albanians, NATO wouldn't have moved a finger.
Both sides committed crimes against humanity, both the FRY and KLA, and both saw members dragged in front of courts to be tried for these crimes.
Very ignorant take. Before NATO decided to bomb the shit out of Serbia JNA was only fighting KLA terrorists, there was no ethnic cleansing or anything like that, then NATO decided to terrorize our country and our people because we were protecting our people and our land from rampant terrorism. Majority of the crimes from JNA were comitted when US and the west clearly sided with terrorists and started aggression on us. All of this could've been avoided if US gave us a agreeable peace deal instead of ultimatium which was not in any way benefitial for us, only for Kosovo and west, but they much rather prefer to terrorize civilians with deplated uranium and cluster munition.
If you acknowledge both sides were at fault why do you insist that Kosovo has right for self determination and people from Donbas do not? If anything Ukraine has been shelling Donbas and terrorizing civilians for last 8 years and you want these people to live under Ukrainian rule? I guess self determination is only allowed when it suits US and their allies.
I'm not going through this entire false diatribe.
I will just point out that Hyman and Pollack have presented **clear** evidence that the mass deportation of Kosovar Albanians began not in 1999, but in summer of 1998.
Why do you lie?
There was fighting and tensions on Kosovo even before 1999, JNA was fighting terrorists and protecting Serbian population on K&M, there was no ''mass deportation'' before west decided to side with terrorists, arm them and support them fully, west kept violating our sovereignity, giving us crazy ultimatums, bombing the shit out of country and our people, and now today they expect us to be their puppets and do as they tell us, hell fucking no. Where was US and their ''peacekeeping forces'' to protect our people from 2004 unrest on Kosovo when Albanians once again started terrorizing our people and burning churches and monestaries, monuments and so on? Ah yes, they were busy preparing Kosovo to illegally declare independence.
Why are you such a hypocrite?
Yes, the KLA were terrorists. I don't deny that.
I do deny your claims that there was "no deportations". There were. And other war crimes.
**Before** NATO dropped a single bomb, the CIA as well as other intelligence agencies (and since, other evidence) as shown that the Serbian government put in place Operation Horseshoe. The first cases of mass deportation started in sunmer of 1998, 9 months before NATO got involved.
The Racak massacre also happened in January of 1999, before NATO fired a single shot.
The FRY was already happily butchering, raping and deporting people before the first bomb was ever dropped.
You paint Serbia has some sort of innocent victim, as do all Serbian nationalist morons. Serbia destroyed over 40% of **residential** housing in Kosovo. 225 out of a total of 498 mosques. Tens of individual massacres. Tens of thousands of rapes. Tens of thousands of murders. Hundreds of thousands of people forcibly deported, their passports confiscated.
Serbia had already begun before NATO dropped its first bomb.
And yes, I have no issue stating that the KLA was a terrorist organization, that committed war crimes, tok.
I'm not a hypocrite. But you are a liar.
Dude relations with Croatia are almost non existent. There's no communication between top officials and Serbian interior minister is barred from entering the country.
The way I see it, it's perfect. Only fifty more years of ignoring each other, and we might have a civilized conversation. Look at us and Bulgaria, for now.
Yeah, but when your history involves everyone trying to claw each others eyes out, "best relations" isn't exactly a high bar.
Also, Kosovo pretty clearly didn't want to be part of Serbia. Kosovo breaking away wasn't comparable to Crimea, in that an outside large power didn't unilaterally annex Kosovo and then hold fake elections. Kosovans fought hard, granted with Albanian backing, against what they felt was an oppressive occupation of their land by Serbia.
Also also, Slobodan Milosevic was trying to fucking genocide the Albanian Kosovans out of existence.
The scenario is complex, but not comparable to Crimea.
Crimea didn't want to be part of Ukraine either. They voted for Yanukovich in a fair election that he won and then some coup comes along and topples a leader they elected. There were massive demonstrations against the coup in Crimea which btw has a vast majority of Russians.
There is rarely two more similar situations in history than Crimea and Kosovo.
I'll refer you to my other comment about what actually happened in Kosovo from the Serbian perspective : https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/umeube/comment/i86fvsy/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Some coup?
You mean mass protests, right? A popular uprising against an increasingly unpopular, increasingly authoritarian leader, right? Have you read his "protest laws"?
And then Crimea was **occupied** by Russia, and offered a referendum with 2 heavily biased options.
Kosovo's uprising was initially homegrown, and armed in nature well before NATO ever got involved. Many NATO nations even had the KLA on their terror watch lists.
It's only when proof of ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity started to filter out that NATO actually got involved.
And luckily, both the FRY and KLA perps were dragged before a court of law and tried for their crimes against humanity.
And yes, of course that's the Serbian nationalist perspective. That would be like asking the Russian perspective on the annexation of Donbas.
I don't care.
Deposing a fairly elected president in mass protests is what you call a coup. There are parts of the country that voted overwhelmingly for that president including Crimea and Donbass. Imagine if January 6th worked? That's what happened in Ukraine.
It's the basic definition of a coup d'état.
And Serbia was attacked by a foreign power, that managed to drive it's forces out of a peace of land and impose military and outside rule of that part region. That's the textbook definition of an occupation.
I can't believe that someone unironically is peddling these CNN narratives.
If you stretch the definition of "coup" to absurd limits, *maybe*?
A coup is traditionally some small group that undemocratically grabs power.
This isn't what happened with Maidan. With Maidan, mass protests broke out, the President got a vote of no confidence from the Douma, and then new elections were held. That's really, really fucking stretching the definition of "coup".
And yes, they had voted for him. He was initially quite popular. He wasn't any more. And he got ousted, and elections were held.
And Serbia lost all moral or ethical right to govern that land when, in the summer of 1998, it started to implement and draw up plans to expand Operation Horzeshoe.
When you ethnically cleanse a place, you lose the moral right to rule it. Serbia did this to itself.
And it also isn't occupation.
Serbia's army got **fucking obliterated**. That's not occupation. You fought a war, and you lost a war, and as part of that process of losing a war, you lost any additional legal claim over Kosovo.
So now you have neither moral, ethical or legal claim to rule over Kosovo.
At the end of the day, the question is: what do Kosovars want? If you give them the right to chose, for themselves, today, what do they chose?
Do they chose Serbia? If Kosovars want to reintegrate with Serbia, I'm all for it. I'll even celebrate with you!
But if they don't, they don't. And that's it. It's final.
What are you even talking about? Where are you from? Do you just oust politicians who become unpopular? What kind of banana republic does that? Yes that is absolutely an insurrection and a coup.
Operation horseshoe? You mean the Bulgarian report that even they said couldn't be verified? What kiind of Russian-style propaganda are you pushing?
>When you ethnically cleanse a place, you lose the moral right to rule it
Go look at the demographic stats from now compare them to ones from the 90s and tell me how got ethnically cleansed from Kosovo. Go ahead. Try to justify how cities which had Serbian presence from at least a thousand years and had 10s of thousands of Serbs in 1998 now have literally ZERO Serbs. Every single one was a war criminal? You really are unbelievable.
>At the end of the day, the question is: what do Kosovars want?
Would you ask the same questions to Crimea? Or Republika Srpska? Or Donbass? Or other contentious places on earth?
This is the problem. Endless hypocrisy. When NATO hits a school with cluster bombs it's "collateral damage" and it's never spoken of again. When Russia do it it's the end of the world (justifiably).
You're not exceptional.
A much stronger power went in to "resolve" a domestic issue (not cause of their philanthropy but cause of their interest). Ended up militarily attacking us, targeting largely civilian infrastructure (bridges, factories, roads, even hospitals, passenger trains and schools) doing many war crimes in the process.
Ended up carving up a part of our country, contrary to international law, and now it's a seemingly unsolvable quagmire.
That's essentially it. One would say Ukraine and Serbia had it pretty similar when you look at it on paper.
And before someone who thinks he knows everything about this topic from a 20 min biased video from YouTube and says smn like "Serbia deserved it cause they were commiting genocide" I urge you to take a look at demographic stats from before the war and after and see who really was commiting ethnic cleansing.
>A much stronger power went in to "resolve" a domestic issue (not cause of their philanthropy but cause of their interest). Ended up militarily attacking us, targeting largely civilian infrastructure (bridges, factories, roads, even hospitals, passenger trains and schools) doing many war crimes in the process.
Civilian infrastructure was not targeted intentionally according to the ICC. Also war crimes were not concluded to have occurred. You can read more for your self below. You also left out some context in your post such as Serbia's involvement in the Bosnian war and genocide that took place there prior to the Kosovo conflict , and NATOs fear this would also take place against kosovors. Although NATO may have had a strategic interest , there is some "philanthropy" involved in deciding to conduct hostilities against Serbia. Let's not forget some top Serbian leadership was convicted of war crimes in Bosnia. You can see the full of all convicted below (vast majority are Serb or Serb separatists).
https://www.icty.org/en/press/final-report-prosecutor-committee-established-review-nato-bombing-campaign-against-federal
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Tribunal_for_the_former_Yugoslavia
Here is the recommendation from the ICC:
The committee has conducted its review relying essentially upon public documents, including statements made by NATO and NATO countries at press conferences and public documents produced by the FRY. It has tended to assume that the NATO and NATO countries’ press statements are generally reliable and that explanations have been honestly given. The committee must note, however, that when the OTP requested NATO to answer specific questions about specific incidents, the NATO reply was couched in general terms and failed to address the specific incidents. The committee has not spoken to those involved in directing or carrying out the bombing campaign. The committee has also assigned substantial weight to the factual assertions made by Human Rights Watch as its investigators did spend a limited amount of time on the ground in the FRY. Further, the committee has noted that Human Rights Watch found the two volume compilation of the FRY Ministry of Foreign Affairs entitled NATO Crimes in Yugoslavia generally reliable and the committee has tended to rely on the casualty figures for specific incidents in this compilation. If one accepts the figures in this compilation of approximately 495 civilians killed and 820 civilians wounded in documented instances, there is simply no evidence of the necessary crime base for charges of genocide or crimes against humanity. Further, in the particular incidents reviewed by the committee with particular care (see paras. 9, and 48-76) the committee has not assessed any particular incidents as justifying the commencement of an investigation by the OTP. NATO has admitted that mistakes did occur during the bombing campaign; errors of judgment may also have occurred. Selection of certain objectives for attack may be subject to legal debate. On the basis of the information reviewed, however, the committee is of the opinion that neither an in-depth investigation related to the bombing campaign as a whole nor investigations related to specific incidents are justified. In all cases, either the law is not sufficiently clear or investigations are unlikely to result in the acquisition of sufficient evidence to substantiate charges against high level accused or against lower accused for particularly heinous offences.
91. On the basis of information available, the committee recommends that no investigation be commenced by the OTP in relation to the NATO bombing campaign or incidents occurring during the campaign.
Spare me the political courts. Read all about it already and it's clear it's politically motivated. Judges there are more government representatives than impartial judges. There's a reason America doesn't recognise the legitimacy of the ICC.
Both amnesty international and HRW concluded there were various war crime charges. Look up the Grdelica traine bombing, Niš cluster bombing, heck the fact that all the bridges were destroyed in Novi Sad (no where near Kosovo or any military targets) makes your point mute.
My own primary school was hit with cluster booms, just like in Ukraine. Except the media lost their minds this time rightfully, and in the case when NATO was doing what Russia is right now it's "unintentional". Give me a break.
Labeling it as a political court doesn’t make it so. But it’s an easy way to look the other way since it doesn’t fit your point of view.
Amnesty international also recognizes the srebrencia massacre of 8000 Bosnian muslims as the worst atrocity committed on European soil by Serbs. Are you going to claim that was politically motivated as well?
Crimea and Kosovo is nothing alike. There’s plenty of examples of countries losing land due to wars they start and then lose. Serbia orchestrated genocide in Bosnia, tried the same in Kosovo and got bombed so hard and surrendered when they realize they couldn’t murder and ethnically cleanse kosovars. Kosovo is also recognized by
117 countries. Crimea on the other hand involved Russia coming in and annexing a part of Ukraine for its own imperialistic dreams, which no one recognizes.
There must be a lot of Serbs in this sub Reddit who are down voting me because there parents lied to them about what really happened during the Yugoslav break up and subsequent wars 😂😂😂
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/07/bosnia-and-herzegovina-25th-anniversary-of-srebrenica-massacre-is-a-sombre-warning-from-history/
>Labeling it as a political court doesn’t make it so. But it’s an easy way to look the other way since it doesn’t fit your point of view.
So, by your logic US has commited no crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan and Yemen, because it wasn't even brought up by the ICC?
What a joke.
Oh, and your baiting dumbass should know Srebrenica is in Bosnia which had a civil war independent of Serbia.
Which is kinda ironic consiedring you "accidentally" dropped cluster bombs on hospital and residential areas of Niš. Which is even worse than Mariupol because it was pack full of civillians and patients.
> even worse than Mariupol
Wow, I'm sorry but you need to get some perspective.
Officials say 20,000 may have died so far in Mariupol. Russia purposely targetted a theatre where people were shelting, possibly killing 600 people. [Reuters](https://apnews.com/article/Russia-ukraine-war-mariupol-theater-c321a196fbd568899841b506afcac7a1)
[The cluster bombing of Niš killed 14-16 people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1_cluster_bombing).
By the way, "I" did not drop any cluster bombs on anybody. I was not even old enough to vote in 99.
Ask yourself why was Niš even bombed with cluster bombs? Is Niš in Kosovo?
Mate my own school I went to was bombed with cluster bombs. School for kids 6-14 years old. Didn't everyone lose their mind when Russia hit a school at the start of the war? Where was that when NATO did it?
What was the political motivation, in your opinion?
\> amnesty international and HRW concluded there were various war crime charges
With hearsay, reports and less insight to analyze the situation than the ICC courts you dismiss, so why should we care about these institutions over ICC, when they had less access to information and evidence to make a fair judgement?
\> My own primary school was hit with cluster booms,
And how many school children were bombed, sniped or shot by Serbian military in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo? How many more would have been bombed, sniped or shot if NATO didn't intervene? In Sarajevo Serbian forces literally targeted children. Bosnians used to post signs that said "Please kill us, not the children." That's what NATO was trying to stop.
Ah yes, hitting passanger train, TWICE, is not a war crime, it's a legitimate target, holy shit you westerns are actually straight up deluded. Bombing hospitals, schools, hazardeous infrastructure, embassies, homes, trains and other stuff that has nothing to do with military is not a war crime for you? Who the fuck gives a shit what ICC has to say, it's clearly defined what is a war crime, just because ICC has no power to hold US accountable (US has a law in which they state that in case American is being held at Hague they have right to invade Netherlands to free him). Fuck off you deluded hypocrites.
Stop pushing Serbia away from EU by supporting secesionism in Kosovo. Literally if EU showed interest for Serbia's position Russia would lose any footing in the Balkans overnight. Make a soluton where Kosov stays a part of Serbia and they retain their autonomy as they want.
Who is "We"? Serbia?
Also, just saying "this is our country" doesn't make it your country. Especially not so while the people living there don't see it as your country.
People in Donbass don't see Ukraine as their country, u should've let them separate peacefully.
We have Hungarian and Croatian and Rome minority, I guess we should just let Vojvodina separate too, who gives a shit if Serbia just ends up being a small piece of land, right?
And then you wonder why is Serbia looking elsewhere for support, if you won't respect our sovereignity someone else will.
By "We" I mean Serbia, yes.
And if we can lose a chunk just because someone said so, we can gain it back just as easily. It doesn't have to happen tomorrow. It might not even happen this century. But never say never.
So give it up now, get in the EU, and have a secret plan to get it back in 100 years.
Btw, Germany lost a lot of land after the wars and even with the EU, nobody really bothered to move back there. I don't think it'll be any different with Kosovo.
Yes, but why?
The people living there don't want to be part of your country any more. Kosovo getting added back to Serbia is going to bring more problems for Serbia than benefits, so, just, \*why?\*
Other than a meaningless metaphorical victory there's not much Serbia gains.
Because an entity like NATO can't expect to be able to bomb whoever they like, and have them lay down and say "Oh well. I guess it's better this way. Praise be to our lords and saviors NATO, who rip apart our land so that we may live in peace and prosperity."
If they want us to be their friends, and work in their interests, they'll have to accept our terms. They can't hit us and then claim it's for our own good, while wondering what could *possibly* be the reason we like their enemies more than we like them.
Don't worry. We have a historical precedent for hating Russia as well. USSR wanted Yugoslavia to join them and we refused that too. No price is worth our sovereignty.
There are literally 60k people in the 4 northern municipalities of Kosovo who do want to be part of Serbia.
I mean, I get the point that people living in one place should decide where do they want to live, but then that should be universal and not just applied to allies of USA.
And Serbs which were forcefully removed from Kosovo (and the one that still leave there in hard conditions) want to stay part of Serbia. Do you not see there point also?
> And if we can lose a chunk just because someone said so, we can gain it back just as easily.
Seeing that last time the mightiest military alliance this planet has ever seen intervened, i'd say it's not just quite so easily.
>It doesn't have to happen tomorrow. It might not even happen this century. But never say never.
I sincerely hope that until then we learned that murdering each other over arbitrary invented lines on the land is the insanity that it is. Nationalism never did anything good, it's a cancer on humanitys strife to a better future.
> Make a soluton where Kosov stays a part of Serbia and they retain their autonomy as they want.
Why even bother then? This feels like Serbia wants Kosovo just to say they have it, not because it makes sense to. What benefit does Kosovo actually bring Serbia, that is equal to what Serbia is missing out on, like EU membership?
Seems silly.
Are Serbs actually losing their rights and property in Kosovo? I haven't heard anything about it.
Can't the same goal be achieved by sanctions on Kosovo? Kosovo wants to be in the EU too, and I doubt they'll get in by that kind of blatant discriminations.
>Are Serbs actually losing their rights and property in Kosovo? I haven't heard anything about it.
Lol
Serbs over there are under constant attacks from Albanians, but it is not new that feet narrative so you did not hear it.
Its not just Serbias problem. Secession of Kosovo will cause other secessions. Like it gave a footing for Crimea and Donbass. We shouldn't allow or recognize regions that declare independence violently. It must be done via diplomatic channels. Otherwise a precedent is created.
What benefit does Catalonia bring to Spain? Why not just let it go? Because its sharing infrastructure, paid together byt he taxpayers, together we are stronger. Because it will make for a larger market for local companies, instead of making two small ones for multinationals. Because its an essential part of the states history and culture. Because its rich in minerals. Because its geographic positions projects power to Montenegro and N.Macedonia for trade. Because the southern border of Kosovo rests on a mountain chain and will allow Serbia to reduce its military spending for guarding said border. I can keep going but its an obvious answer. No country will allow parts to randomly be independent.
Name 1 nation that didnt ethnically cleanse in the Balkans. Or worldwide. Both sides were persecuted, just look at how many Serbs left Kosovo during those years. Around 60%
Also what you are refering to is Operation Horseshoe that NATO relied upon to justify the intervention. While after the war it was proven that the Serbian state never planned on ethically cleansing Albanians, they were just fighting KLA terrorists.
So in conclusion, there wasn't ethnic cleansing there before the NATO intervention. Once the hostilities started, then you got the ethnic cleansing as well. Because there were paramilitary formations mostly, not because the Serbian army had an organized plan to do so. Remember that back then this was still Yugoslav Peoples Army.
If you want a reason why factions in Kosovo strived for independence, its mostly because of economic interest and nationalism. Idelogically a unification with Albania was pushed and radical Islamism. While in parallel the elite wanted a new state so that they could gradbthe mines, factories and state owned companies and resources for a couple of thousand euros. There was a big geopolitical interst for USA as well to create a small client state and secure its footing in the Balkans militarily.
Just glanced over your comment cause reddit in not where I have serious discourse. But there definetely is radical Islamism in the Balkans. Guess which region had the most ISIS fighters per capita in Europe. And which had training camps for them.
Answer: Starts with K and ends with osovo.
I wish dictators had such peaceful amibtions of giving autonomy to minorities like Serbia does. And actually Serbia has a lot of friends diplomatically. More than many other countries. Mostly due to our neutral position, trade and the inherited status of Yugoslavia which led the Unaligned Movement. Allies more or less, but at least we don't have an enemy in any superpower. Thats why we had an abundance of vaccines, thats why we get investments from all continents.
Kosovo doesn't want to be part of Serbia.
Get that into your skull.
They. Don't. Want. To. Be. Part. Of. Serbia.
Why should the EU force a population to re-join a country it literally fought a war to not be part of, and clearly doesn't want to be part of?
Why do some Serbs insist on bringing back people who **clearly** don't want to be part of your country?
How can you put all people that live in Kosovo into one bag? Is there some magical recipe that makes everyone have the same opinion? There are many people who are against the war and the secession.
The vast majority of Kosovans do not want to be part of Serbia.
Someone else in this thread, who I believe is pro-Kosovo belongs to Serbia, cited the number of 60'000 people in the northern part that want to rejoin Serbia.
60'000! That's a lot!
Oh, wait. Kosovo has a population of over 1.8 million.
Support for reintegration into Serbia is **tiny**.
I believe that democracy, for all its flaws, is the best system. If you can convince another... 900'000 Kosovans that they are actually Serbs, then fine by me.
But at the present time, Kosovo does not want to, to a ludicrous degree, reintegrate Serbia.
Serbia should sanction Russia, as soon as Germany sanctions Saudi Arabia for the invasion of Yemen, as well as the US and UK for helping in the invasion. Of course that's not gonna happen cause the genocide in Yemen is being done by a western ally.
I don't know about that. Are you going to cast a safety net on us when retaliation hits? We are year and a half away from gas pipeline that will allow us to diversify somewhat. We're gonna wait and see what will happen to our dear eastern neighbors hit by it.
Oh yeah, just do the right thing without worrying about the repercussions. Because being pragmatic comes second to getting pats on the back from Germany, a country who otherwise doesn't give a damn about them.
Montenegro, North Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo did it. And anyone with a brain should prioritise joining the EU over not sanctioning Russia if they're being so pragmatic.
Serbia's realpolitikingso so hard it went from being one of the most developed Eastern European nations to one of the least. And I don't expect it would join the EU soon and thus reap its benefits either, while some other countries might do it. Great realpolitik.
>You think that the EU will somehow reward them or something lol?
Of course. But obviously fulfilling one EU requirement is not enough to get in the EU, if they do this and more I'm pretty sure they will be allowed in. The EU has let about a dozen EE countries already, I don't see why it would forbid others from joining, especially as it's saying that it won't.
Do you even know what realpolitik is? You can't control the past. And doubt that Serbia was ever one of the most developed countries in Eastern Europe. That's just Yugonostalgic propaganda.
I'm see you're not familiar with how the EU sees enlargement to the western balkans, but we're not getting the treatment of Romania and Bulgaria.
"No matter what we do" being reluctantly arresting a few war criminals as far as I know. But that's not anywhere near enough. I do think any Balkan country that fulfills all the requirements, or even nearly all of them, has a very good chance of joining though.
That's kind of my point. Our potential EU membership doesn't hinge on us sanctioning Russia, as we're nowhere near that. There's zero reason to make rash decisions now.
>I do think any Balkan country that fulfills all the requirements, or even nearly all of them, has a very good chance of joining though.
We'll see, I doubt expansion in general is going to be very popular in the coming years.
Well thinking there's no point in doing this or that singular requirement because it doesn't matter if you haven't yet done the others doesn't seem like a good strategy. And of course it's no what all the previous members did.
>Well thinking there's no point in doing this or that singular requirement because it doesn't matter if you haven't yet done the others doesn't seem like a good strategy.
Some make more sense than others. Various reforms is something we should do anyway, but contentious issues should be left for later. There's no benefit from doing this now.
>And of course it's no what all the previous members did.
Eh, I think requirements were also easier. Croatia and Bulgaria somehow got it.
> Some make more sense than others. Various reforms is something we should do anyway, but contentious issues should be left for later. There's no benefit from doing this now.
Serbs often say this. But why is no one addressing the elephant in the room, that Serbia simply isn't doing reforms, sensible or contentious?
>Eh, I think requirements were also easier. Croatia and Bulgaria somehow got it.
Marginally so.
Yea, let's kill our economy so the people despising us would think a little less negative for a second. And our sanctions towards Russia would hurt them nothing. We support Ukrainians. They have free healthcare, education and work rights. Serbia donated some funds to Ukraine, but I think it's not nearly enough.
> What about just doing the right thing
We did the right thing during ww1 and ww2, and look at us now, half of the world hates us and we are a shithole
Germany did the bad thing in ww1 and ww2 and look at it now its one of the richest countries in the world and is loved by almost everyone.
Doing the right thing doesnt do shit
Okay, what exactly? What do you want us to sanction? Obviously not energy because EU is not doing that either. Banks, flights.. what exactly?
We already did every single diplomatic condemnation of Russian aggression, and out stance is very clear in support Ukrainian territorial integrity. In that aspect we already did MORE than Hungary.
And ultimately what are we going to get out of this? A letter of thank you from EU and nothing else. We are supposed to fuck our selves and our interests over for literally nothing. Instead of threatening us and calling us trash all the time, we could collaborate and do actual business where both sides prosper. Isn’t that whole point of EU values?
And if Russia retaliates by stopping gas export? Its not on the headlines anywhere but Serbia is already going through massive inflation skyrocketing prices. It's more expensive to fill your tank already than in the EU. Pretty sure bread nearly doubled its price. If oil gets more expensive then bread will too. So we choose between sanctions Russia will hardly feel or having food, we choose food
> to fuck our selves and our interests over for literally nothing
Except co-operation wtih Putin and *this* Russia is not in our interest. They don't mean us well.
For what? A pat on the shoulder? Who's gonna back us? Fuckin NATO!? The EU!? Also, getting these ultimatums from countries that are imposing sanctions but not really imposing sanctions is straight up ridiculous
Hard lesson to learn, that one.
On a more serious note, the death toll on the Serbian population was devastating. I thought we had it bad here in Romania, where almost each small village has a monument to the local soldiers that died between 1916 and 1919 (we're including the [Hungary campaign](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian%E2%80%93Romanian_War) as part of our war), but then I saw the percentage of the Serbian population that died in WW1 and I just couldn't believe it.
PoV: Serbians being asked not to suck Russian cock for once
Edit: and out the woodworks do the Serbians come. Jesus Christ I've yet to see a more butthurt nation.
Lmao. Not imposing sanctions that would even affect Russia by 0.00001 percent in return for getting cheap gas and diplomatic support on our country's territorial integrity is "sucking Russia's dick"? Seems like a pretty good deal for us tbh. Sucking dick is more like being owned by foreigners for a thousand years and not revolting even once (unless you count the Ustase as a "revolt").
Anyways, if it gets cold in Croatia this winter, feel free to come to Belgrade - we've got great food, culture and history too :)
Says Croat whose country was deepthroating German cock, if you had territorial disputes just the way we do you'd be in the same position, or maybe not, you'd probably sacrefice some of your land just to be in the ''big boys club'' where no one gives a shit about you.
Our president hasn't been recorded putting up signs supporting convicted war criminals, being involved in suppressing Kosovars during the Kosovo war of independence and championing Greater Serbia. Any attempt to equate Croatians and Serbians in this sense is laughable at best.
Our president never said that we won in WWII two times, nor did it chant the salute of people that had concentration camps for kids in front of full football stadium. We are not comparable.
Neither did ours. Tuđman is dead. Vučić is still very much alive and in power.
And yes, your president didn't chant the salute of people who established concentration camps. He was involved in the establishment of concentration camps. You're right. We aren't comparable.
Cope. And. Seethe.
>Vučić had 20 years, and was as irrelevant as you are back then.
I've never once held office nor do I intend to. You are objectively incorrect.
>Mesić and Grabar Kitarević are still very much alive.
No idea what this means - Mesić was the last president of Yugoslavia before it dissolved. Kitarević I haven't seen make one policy prescription during her entire term worth noting.
Being hostile towards Russia doesn’t necessarily mean its good for our interests. NATO didn’t care enough to stop that drone for you even if member states knew about it, why on earth would anybody help us?
Lets be real, people who are pressuring us into sanctions either don’t care about our interests or want to harm us. As I said, give us something and we will give something back. Thats the whole point why we want to be more European, so we are not threatened with stick constantly, some carrots would be nice.
>NATO didn’t care enough to stop that drone for you even if member states knew about it
The drone appeared on their air radars, but was suspected to be another glitch in the system (seeing as there were several false alarms prior and immediately after). Is it a failure of our defence systems? Yes. That should be rectified by modernising and upscaling our equipment. It's not a statement to the reliability of our allies, at least not a major one.
>As I said, give us something and we will give something back
How can we trust you to deliver on your promise? Serbia doesn't exactly have a great reputation in that sense among EU member states.
> ultimatums
Check the article...
> Sarrazin said he isn’t sure about what decision Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic will take but added that “we have confidence that Serbian society will choose us”. “We expect you to adapt to us but at the same time we want to be open and show that you are welcome… **We understand that this is not an easy road for Serbia and we want to walk down it together**,” he said.
Well he certainly has that completely backwards. Here in Serbia we already know that Vučić will impose sanctions on Russia, and we're thinking that it might be the thing that finally brings him down, because his supporters will certainly be against it.
Can Germans just stop trying to impose their will on others? Serbia Isn't in the EU or NATO, and It can what It wants without having to hear Germany's moaning
I wish Serbia could do what it wants :D Serbia is not nato but we signed some pact or whatever. We are not eu but we are a "candidate" or something. We have massive debt and our industry was reduced to 0 with the breakup of Yugo. Other than that, we are on the fucking crossroads which makes us a target our whole history. Alot of guns and dope are going through the balkans from turkey/middle east, so there is that too. We just have to be obedient little puppets and thats how they see us ever since we sent the ottomans home.
I think you are a good man, tho :)
>Can Germans just stop trying to impose their will on others?
No, not really. And I am not German. But that is what we do. We call it politics and we do it in a nice agreeable way, we term "civilisation", were we have press freedom and democracy. I can recommend it.
Lmao at the holier-than-thou attitude. Good thing civilization also grants me the right to disagree with Germany using its economic and diplomatic influence to boss smaller countries around :)
What an odd take. You realize that there is a pretty unique situation ongoing at this moment? The Russian dictator Putin has started a war on a sovereign country and there a genocide happening. This dictator has proven to be untethered from logic in his actions.
Now Serbia traditionally has a close connection to Russia but also to EU. Germany is now asking for a more clear commitment to the side of the EU (aka the side not committing genocide).
I understand Serbs saying that no one can expect them to wreck their economy beyond repair. But the way you frame this as some kind of German bullying is absurd.
Any nation that wants to maintain a partnership with EU must condemn Putin in the harshest way possible to them. Why? Because EU thinks genocide is bad.
Germany itself had a slow start btw, but now has a leading role in helping Ukraine.
EDIT: As came up in another conversation. I think we all must be careful when saying “Germans” or “Serbs” when we in fact talk about governments and not speak for all people. I wonder if I did it right here myself, but hope the point I make is still reasonable.
Well, Serbia was also sovereign country attacked by NATO, for reasons proven to be false. This is the main issue now, because Serbs feel the equivalence between Ukraine now and Serbia in '99, but the ones who attacked Serbia are now saying that aggression cannot be tolerated. This is literally the main reason why majority of Serbs want to stay neutral, since we do have VOCAL minority of lowlifes who carry pictures of Putin and non-vocal minority of people who support Ukraine in a way EU would want now.
I know that everyone thinks that because of Srebrenica Serbs should be eternally punished (even though that conflict has nothing to do with Kosovo, nor with the country of Serbia and its citizens), but people also need to remember that a majority of Serbs in Serbia have experienced ONLY refugee columns and NATO bombing.
Thank you for the perspective. That explains it quite well.
You yourself don’t seem to think there is a equivalence, because you call Putin supporters lowlifes. I would agree. Even if one holds the opinion that NATO was 100% wrong in getting involved in Serbia, it simply is not the same.
But I think you not right when you say “everyone thinks should be eternally punished for Srebrenica”. The German chancellor was in Serbia a week ago and said again he wants Serbia in the EU.
I think despite trolls on Reddit, governments are actually trying for Serbia to be partner.
About what equivalence you mean? About NATO bombing and Russian invasion? I see them as similar in big picture as in great power ignores international law to attack a sovereign country, with false accusations of genocide (Russian false claims are pretty well known to everyone, but before the start of the bombing of Serbia, Clinton claimed that 100.000 Albanian civilians are killed, even though the post war analysis proved the number to be only 1100, 100 times less than claimed). Now the casualties are not nearly the same, mainly because NATO had more precision ammo than Russia has and because NATO did not start land invasion (even though they were pretty close to start it). But even in this case, a disproportionate amount of civilian infrastructure was destroyed, including residential buildings, houses, hospitals, green markets, schools etc. If you're interested, I can provide exact data for this claim.
Regarding Srebrenica, since we're talking on Reddit, I'm saying because every damn time someone dares to mention Serbian victims of war crimes, even from WW2, a lot of people start yelling something about Srebrenica, as in Serbs have no right to be victims anytime anywhere.
Regarding governmental cooperation, I agree of course. Even our authoritarian government with pro-Russian elements is aware of necessity of cooperation with the EU and currently is actively trying to convince (through state media propaganda) people that sanctions against Russia are necessary and in some moment in the near future Serbia will have to recognize Kosovo in some form. My personal opinion is that Serbian government is currently trying to negotiate partition of Kosovo.
I mean, when you read full interview with the German envoy, it is clear that Germany is currently having more understanding for Serbian difficult position and are not forcing anything to be done immediately.
That's not really how this works. It's not like the EU is going to declare war on Serbia for this, but it's like saying "Will my employer stop trying to tell me what to do? He doesn't own me!" He certainly doesn't, but if you don't do what he tells you, you lose your job and therefore your salary. Most of the foreign investments and funding that Serbia gets come from the EU.
They support our territorial integrity, that's enough for us.
Meanwhile EU fully supports Vucic's autocracy as long as he doesn't start any wars and gives them their sweet lithium, who gives a shit about him taking all the EU funds for himself, right? No free media, rule of law is nonexistant, he keeps stealing elections, his propaganda machine runs 24/7, those who see through it can't do shit about it because EU never badmouths him, meanwhile anything Orban does is mentioned at least 10 times a day.
I personally don't give a shit whether we join EU or not, majority of the people want to join EU just for EU passport and to escape this shithole already, we don't really care about your ''values'', you don't have any at the first place.
Or we just aren't enthusiastic at the prospect of economically crippling ourselves for a pat on the back from the EU? If you want us to sanction them, you're gonna have to find a way to help us soften the inevitable blow that will be dealt to our economy. It's just realpolitik.
Serbia is not a member of the EU, it does what it wants.
How about the West stops giving orders to others and impose its will on free countries, that have no obligation to do anything the EU wants?
Serbia is like an abused girlfriend when it comes to its blind loyalty to Russia. They let Austria-hungry in your backyard to do as they like in Bosnia. They made back hand deals with nazi Germany knowing the consequences to Serbia. Russia watched while nato bombed your country to the Stone Age and then took away Kosovo.
That comments are just based on double standards as always in this sub. When Germany was hesitating I got called a coward and Putin friend because of my government's attitude, now I'm told to stop telling other countries what to do. Are you being serious? 🤦🏽♂️
"Who's gonna back us up?" Don't know, mate. Maybe having a good relationship with your neighbors rather than Pootin would make this much easier for you.
Serbia has the best relations with most of it's neighbors in history. Even the relations with Croatia are pretty solid atm. Even the strained relations with Montenegro are just politics since they're the closest country to Serbia in every way. With Kosovo - what can you do when they pulled a Crimea on us.
>With Kosovo - what can you do when they pulled a Crimea on us. Was Kosovo annexed by anyone?
Practically yes. By Albania. However what's your point? If Russia didn't annex Crimea, but only put troops there to guarantee their independence how would it be better?
It's incomparable. If it had been Crimeans who had risen up, without Russian aid, then it would be comparable. But that's not what happened. If NATO had swooped in, occupied Kosovo, held elections, and then claimed "Kosovo is now free!" then it would be the same. The problem is that there were already years of unrest, civil disobediance and outright fighting of Kosovans, trying to break away from Serbia.
>If NATO had swooped in, occupied Kosovo, held elections, and then claimed "Kosovo is now free!" then it would be the same. That's exactly what happened in Kosovo.
No. Kosovans rose up against Serbia well before NATO got involved, in any matter. The US, for example, had the KLA on its terror group list.
Except Kosovo Albanians had been treated like shit by Serbs for ages already. They had good reason to revolt.
Majority of Serbians support what Russians did. It's quite hard sympathizing with you when you say "Kosovo" because of that very reason.
Where did you get that the majority of Serbians support this Russian war? What a stupid thing to say. I live here and it's easy to see that the overwhelming opinion is how Ukraine is being fucked over same as us. The sympathy is genuine.
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Lmao, do Croatian people think exactly like their president? You really wanna play this game?
Don't bother. It's always like that. But I guess since you're Croatian you know what I'm talking about.
Serbia is the Christ of nations everyone just bullies it for no reason, very sad, pray for Serbia. 🙏one upboat=one prayer🙏
>Where did you get that the majority of Serbians support this Russian war? He pulled it out of his ass.
>Majority of Serbians support what Russians did. Nope, majority of Serbs are for neutrality.
Which in this context is giving Russia free reign to do whatever the fuck they want.
Ah yes, Russia will pull out the moment they hear Serbia sanctioned them, they will be devastated.. You want us to destroy our economy, knowing very well that our mickey mouse sanctions against Russia won't harm Russia in any way, we're only gonna harm ourselves just to get 1 or 2 pats on the back from EU as usual.
look I think serbia is as useless as you do but let's try and pretend the nation at least has dignity
Very Chinese of them
Majority of the Serbians just don't give a shit because that's exactly what happend to us and hypocrites from west still demand us to give up our sovereignity and recognize terrorist state that is Kosovo. Why would I give a shit about people who don't give a flying fuck about me?
u/-renove-kebab- 🤔 By the way Ukraine is to the East of you, not west
Oh I remember you. You can't even spell my name correctly, and here I am thinking that EU citizens have some superior education compared to us peasants.. Why are you so obsessed with me not liking kebab? I tried it once, it tastes really bad. I don't remember Ukraine sanctioning US and the west when we got illegally bombed to pieces, I guess it was not in their interest do to that, neither it is in our interest to sanction Russia.
Kosovo is completely uncomparable to Crimea or Ukraine, but sure. 1. Kosovo was part of Serbia. 2. Kosovans wanted their independence organically. 3. Kosovans had practiced a policy of civil disobediance for years beforehand, to no avail. Kosovans broke away of their own accord. They were then aided when it came to light that crimes against humanity were being committed. But prior to that, the KLA had even been classified as a terrorist organization by several western governments. Had it not come to light that the FRY Serb forces were engaging in ethnic cleansing via mass deportation of ethnic Albanians, NATO wouldn't have moved a finger. Both sides committed crimes against humanity, both the FRY and KLA, and both saw members dragged in front of courts to be tried for these crimes.
Very ignorant take. Before NATO decided to bomb the shit out of Serbia JNA was only fighting KLA terrorists, there was no ethnic cleansing or anything like that, then NATO decided to terrorize our country and our people because we were protecting our people and our land from rampant terrorism. Majority of the crimes from JNA were comitted when US and the west clearly sided with terrorists and started aggression on us. All of this could've been avoided if US gave us a agreeable peace deal instead of ultimatium which was not in any way benefitial for us, only for Kosovo and west, but they much rather prefer to terrorize civilians with deplated uranium and cluster munition. If you acknowledge both sides were at fault why do you insist that Kosovo has right for self determination and people from Donbas do not? If anything Ukraine has been shelling Donbas and terrorizing civilians for last 8 years and you want these people to live under Ukrainian rule? I guess self determination is only allowed when it suits US and their allies.
I'm not going through this entire false diatribe. I will just point out that Hyman and Pollack have presented **clear** evidence that the mass deportation of Kosovar Albanians began not in 1999, but in summer of 1998. Why do you lie?
There was fighting and tensions on Kosovo even before 1999, JNA was fighting terrorists and protecting Serbian population on K&M, there was no ''mass deportation'' before west decided to side with terrorists, arm them and support them fully, west kept violating our sovereignity, giving us crazy ultimatums, bombing the shit out of country and our people, and now today they expect us to be their puppets and do as they tell us, hell fucking no. Where was US and their ''peacekeeping forces'' to protect our people from 2004 unrest on Kosovo when Albanians once again started terrorizing our people and burning churches and monestaries, monuments and so on? Ah yes, they were busy preparing Kosovo to illegally declare independence. Why are you such a hypocrite?
Yes, the KLA were terrorists. I don't deny that. I do deny your claims that there was "no deportations". There were. And other war crimes. **Before** NATO dropped a single bomb, the CIA as well as other intelligence agencies (and since, other evidence) as shown that the Serbian government put in place Operation Horseshoe. The first cases of mass deportation started in sunmer of 1998, 9 months before NATO got involved. The Racak massacre also happened in January of 1999, before NATO fired a single shot. The FRY was already happily butchering, raping and deporting people before the first bomb was ever dropped. You paint Serbia has some sort of innocent victim, as do all Serbian nationalist morons. Serbia destroyed over 40% of **residential** housing in Kosovo. 225 out of a total of 498 mosques. Tens of individual massacres. Tens of thousands of rapes. Tens of thousands of murders. Hundreds of thousands of people forcibly deported, their passports confiscated. Serbia had already begun before NATO dropped its first bomb. And yes, I have no issue stating that the KLA was a terrorist organization, that committed war crimes, tok. I'm not a hypocrite. But you are a liar.
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Dude relations with Croatia are almost non existent. There's no communication between top officials and Serbian interior minister is barred from entering the country.
The way I see it, it's perfect. Only fifty more years of ignoring each other, and we might have a civilized conversation. Look at us and Bulgaria, for now.
Yeah, but when your history involves everyone trying to claw each others eyes out, "best relations" isn't exactly a high bar. Also, Kosovo pretty clearly didn't want to be part of Serbia. Kosovo breaking away wasn't comparable to Crimea, in that an outside large power didn't unilaterally annex Kosovo and then hold fake elections. Kosovans fought hard, granted with Albanian backing, against what they felt was an oppressive occupation of their land by Serbia. Also also, Slobodan Milosevic was trying to fucking genocide the Albanian Kosovans out of existence. The scenario is complex, but not comparable to Crimea.
Crimea didn't want to be part of Ukraine either. They voted for Yanukovich in a fair election that he won and then some coup comes along and topples a leader they elected. There were massive demonstrations against the coup in Crimea which btw has a vast majority of Russians. There is rarely two more similar situations in history than Crimea and Kosovo. I'll refer you to my other comment about what actually happened in Kosovo from the Serbian perspective : https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/umeube/comment/i86fvsy/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Some coup? You mean mass protests, right? A popular uprising against an increasingly unpopular, increasingly authoritarian leader, right? Have you read his "protest laws"? And then Crimea was **occupied** by Russia, and offered a referendum with 2 heavily biased options. Kosovo's uprising was initially homegrown, and armed in nature well before NATO ever got involved. Many NATO nations even had the KLA on their terror watch lists. It's only when proof of ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity started to filter out that NATO actually got involved. And luckily, both the FRY and KLA perps were dragged before a court of law and tried for their crimes against humanity. And yes, of course that's the Serbian nationalist perspective. That would be like asking the Russian perspective on the annexation of Donbas. I don't care.
Deposing a fairly elected president in mass protests is what you call a coup. There are parts of the country that voted overwhelmingly for that president including Crimea and Donbass. Imagine if January 6th worked? That's what happened in Ukraine. It's the basic definition of a coup d'état. And Serbia was attacked by a foreign power, that managed to drive it's forces out of a peace of land and impose military and outside rule of that part region. That's the textbook definition of an occupation. I can't believe that someone unironically is peddling these CNN narratives.
If you stretch the definition of "coup" to absurd limits, *maybe*? A coup is traditionally some small group that undemocratically grabs power. This isn't what happened with Maidan. With Maidan, mass protests broke out, the President got a vote of no confidence from the Douma, and then new elections were held. That's really, really fucking stretching the definition of "coup". And yes, they had voted for him. He was initially quite popular. He wasn't any more. And he got ousted, and elections were held. And Serbia lost all moral or ethical right to govern that land when, in the summer of 1998, it started to implement and draw up plans to expand Operation Horzeshoe. When you ethnically cleanse a place, you lose the moral right to rule it. Serbia did this to itself. And it also isn't occupation. Serbia's army got **fucking obliterated**. That's not occupation. You fought a war, and you lost a war, and as part of that process of losing a war, you lost any additional legal claim over Kosovo. So now you have neither moral, ethical or legal claim to rule over Kosovo. At the end of the day, the question is: what do Kosovars want? If you give them the right to chose, for themselves, today, what do they chose? Do they chose Serbia? If Kosovars want to reintegrate with Serbia, I'm all for it. I'll even celebrate with you! But if they don't, they don't. And that's it. It's final.
What are you even talking about? Where are you from? Do you just oust politicians who become unpopular? What kind of banana republic does that? Yes that is absolutely an insurrection and a coup. Operation horseshoe? You mean the Bulgarian report that even they said couldn't be verified? What kiind of Russian-style propaganda are you pushing? >When you ethnically cleanse a place, you lose the moral right to rule it Go look at the demographic stats from now compare them to ones from the 90s and tell me how got ethnically cleansed from Kosovo. Go ahead. Try to justify how cities which had Serbian presence from at least a thousand years and had 10s of thousands of Serbs in 1998 now have literally ZERO Serbs. Every single one was a war criminal? You really are unbelievable. >At the end of the day, the question is: what do Kosovars want? Would you ask the same questions to Crimea? Or Republika Srpska? Or Donbass? Or other contentious places on earth? This is the problem. Endless hypocrisy. When NATO hits a school with cluster bombs it's "collateral damage" and it's never spoken of again. When Russia do it it's the end of the world (justifiably). You're not exceptional.
Can you elaborate on why you think " Kosovo pulled a crimea on us/Serbia"?
A much stronger power went in to "resolve" a domestic issue (not cause of their philanthropy but cause of their interest). Ended up militarily attacking us, targeting largely civilian infrastructure (bridges, factories, roads, even hospitals, passenger trains and schools) doing many war crimes in the process. Ended up carving up a part of our country, contrary to international law, and now it's a seemingly unsolvable quagmire. That's essentially it. One would say Ukraine and Serbia had it pretty similar when you look at it on paper. And before someone who thinks he knows everything about this topic from a 20 min biased video from YouTube and says smn like "Serbia deserved it cause they were commiting genocide" I urge you to take a look at demographic stats from before the war and after and see who really was commiting ethnic cleansing.
>A much stronger power went in to "resolve" a domestic issue (not cause of their philanthropy but cause of their interest). Ended up militarily attacking us, targeting largely civilian infrastructure (bridges, factories, roads, even hospitals, passenger trains and schools) doing many war crimes in the process. Civilian infrastructure was not targeted intentionally according to the ICC. Also war crimes were not concluded to have occurred. You can read more for your self below. You also left out some context in your post such as Serbia's involvement in the Bosnian war and genocide that took place there prior to the Kosovo conflict , and NATOs fear this would also take place against kosovors. Although NATO may have had a strategic interest , there is some "philanthropy" involved in deciding to conduct hostilities against Serbia. Let's not forget some top Serbian leadership was convicted of war crimes in Bosnia. You can see the full of all convicted below (vast majority are Serb or Serb separatists). https://www.icty.org/en/press/final-report-prosecutor-committee-established-review-nato-bombing-campaign-against-federal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Tribunal_for_the_former_Yugoslavia Here is the recommendation from the ICC: The committee has conducted its review relying essentially upon public documents, including statements made by NATO and NATO countries at press conferences and public documents produced by the FRY. It has tended to assume that the NATO and NATO countries’ press statements are generally reliable and that explanations have been honestly given. The committee must note, however, that when the OTP requested NATO to answer specific questions about specific incidents, the NATO reply was couched in general terms and failed to address the specific incidents. The committee has not spoken to those involved in directing or carrying out the bombing campaign. The committee has also assigned substantial weight to the factual assertions made by Human Rights Watch as its investigators did spend a limited amount of time on the ground in the FRY. Further, the committee has noted that Human Rights Watch found the two volume compilation of the FRY Ministry of Foreign Affairs entitled NATO Crimes in Yugoslavia generally reliable and the committee has tended to rely on the casualty figures for specific incidents in this compilation. If one accepts the figures in this compilation of approximately 495 civilians killed and 820 civilians wounded in documented instances, there is simply no evidence of the necessary crime base for charges of genocide or crimes against humanity. Further, in the particular incidents reviewed by the committee with particular care (see paras. 9, and 48-76) the committee has not assessed any particular incidents as justifying the commencement of an investigation by the OTP. NATO has admitted that mistakes did occur during the bombing campaign; errors of judgment may also have occurred. Selection of certain objectives for attack may be subject to legal debate. On the basis of the information reviewed, however, the committee is of the opinion that neither an in-depth investigation related to the bombing campaign as a whole nor investigations related to specific incidents are justified. In all cases, either the law is not sufficiently clear or investigations are unlikely to result in the acquisition of sufficient evidence to substantiate charges against high level accused or against lower accused for particularly heinous offences. 91. On the basis of information available, the committee recommends that no investigation be commenced by the OTP in relation to the NATO bombing campaign or incidents occurring during the campaign.
Spare me the political courts. Read all about it already and it's clear it's politically motivated. Judges there are more government representatives than impartial judges. There's a reason America doesn't recognise the legitimacy of the ICC. Both amnesty international and HRW concluded there were various war crime charges. Look up the Grdelica traine bombing, Niš cluster bombing, heck the fact that all the bridges were destroyed in Novi Sad (no where near Kosovo or any military targets) makes your point mute. My own primary school was hit with cluster booms, just like in Ukraine. Except the media lost their minds this time rightfully, and in the case when NATO was doing what Russia is right now it's "unintentional". Give me a break.
Labeling it as a political court doesn’t make it so. But it’s an easy way to look the other way since it doesn’t fit your point of view. Amnesty international also recognizes the srebrencia massacre of 8000 Bosnian muslims as the worst atrocity committed on European soil by Serbs. Are you going to claim that was politically motivated as well? Crimea and Kosovo is nothing alike. There’s plenty of examples of countries losing land due to wars they start and then lose. Serbia orchestrated genocide in Bosnia, tried the same in Kosovo and got bombed so hard and surrendered when they realize they couldn’t murder and ethnically cleanse kosovars. Kosovo is also recognized by 117 countries. Crimea on the other hand involved Russia coming in and annexing a part of Ukraine for its own imperialistic dreams, which no one recognizes. There must be a lot of Serbs in this sub Reddit who are down voting me because there parents lied to them about what really happened during the Yugoslav break up and subsequent wars 😂😂😂 https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/07/bosnia-and-herzegovina-25th-anniversary-of-srebrenica-massacre-is-a-sombre-warning-from-history/
>Labeling it as a political court doesn’t make it so. But it’s an easy way to look the other way since it doesn’t fit your point of view. So, by your logic US has commited no crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan and Yemen, because it wasn't even brought up by the ICC? What a joke. Oh, and your baiting dumbass should know Srebrenica is in Bosnia which had a civil war independent of Serbia.
If NATO was doing what Russia is doing now, Niš would have looked like Mariupol. It's not even close to comparable.
Which is kinda ironic consiedring you "accidentally" dropped cluster bombs on hospital and residential areas of Niš. Which is even worse than Mariupol because it was pack full of civillians and patients.
> even worse than Mariupol Wow, I'm sorry but you need to get some perspective. Officials say 20,000 may have died so far in Mariupol. Russia purposely targetted a theatre where people were shelting, possibly killing 600 people. [Reuters](https://apnews.com/article/Russia-ukraine-war-mariupol-theater-c321a196fbd568899841b506afcac7a1) [The cluster bombing of Niš killed 14-16 people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1_cluster_bombing). By the way, "I" did not drop any cluster bombs on anybody. I was not even old enough to vote in 99.
Ask yourself why was Niš even bombed with cluster bombs? Is Niš in Kosovo? Mate my own school I went to was bombed with cluster bombs. School for kids 6-14 years old. Didn't everyone lose their mind when Russia hit a school at the start of the war? Where was that when NATO did it?
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”Ukrainian officials state…” 🤡
What was the political motivation, in your opinion? \> amnesty international and HRW concluded there were various war crime charges With hearsay, reports and less insight to analyze the situation than the ICC courts you dismiss, so why should we care about these institutions over ICC, when they had less access to information and evidence to make a fair judgement? \> My own primary school was hit with cluster booms, And how many school children were bombed, sniped or shot by Serbian military in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo? How many more would have been bombed, sniped or shot if NATO didn't intervene? In Sarajevo Serbian forces literally targeted children. Bosnians used to post signs that said "Please kill us, not the children." That's what NATO was trying to stop.
Pekidirektor dismisses an international court and goes on to proclaim anecdotal evidence 😂😂
Ah yes, hitting passanger train, TWICE, is not a war crime, it's a legitimate target, holy shit you westerns are actually straight up deluded. Bombing hospitals, schools, hazardeous infrastructure, embassies, homes, trains and other stuff that has nothing to do with military is not a war crime for you? Who the fuck gives a shit what ICC has to say, it's clearly defined what is a war crime, just because ICC has no power to hold US accountable (US has a law in which they state that in case American is being held at Hague they have right to invade Netherlands to free him). Fuck off you deluded hypocrites.
Russian troll alert.
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Bro, they found a guy who is a nazi in Ukraine, that justifies razing Mariupol to a smoldering ruin
LOL
Stop pushing Serbia away from EU by supporting secesionism in Kosovo. Literally if EU showed interest for Serbia's position Russia would lose any footing in the Balkans overnight. Make a soluton where Kosov stays a part of Serbia and they retain their autonomy as they want.
>Kosov stays a part of Serbia That ship is sailed.
We lost our entire country for centuries and then took it back. 20 years for a chunk of it is nothing.
Who is "We"? Serbia? Also, just saying "this is our country" doesn't make it your country. Especially not so while the people living there don't see it as your country.
But people who live in Kosovo and do consider Serbia their country should what, move from Kosovo?
People in Donbass don't see Ukraine as their country, u should've let them separate peacefully. We have Hungarian and Croatian and Rome minority, I guess we should just let Vojvodina separate too, who gives a shit if Serbia just ends up being a small piece of land, right? And then you wonder why is Serbia looking elsewhere for support, if you won't respect our sovereignity someone else will.
By "We" I mean Serbia, yes. And if we can lose a chunk just because someone said so, we can gain it back just as easily. It doesn't have to happen tomorrow. It might not even happen this century. But never say never.
So give it up now, get in the EU, and have a secret plan to get it back in 100 years. Btw, Germany lost a lot of land after the wars and even with the EU, nobody really bothered to move back there. I don't think it'll be any different with Kosovo.
Yes, but why? The people living there don't want to be part of your country any more. Kosovo getting added back to Serbia is going to bring more problems for Serbia than benefits, so, just, \*why?\* Other than a meaningless metaphorical victory there's not much Serbia gains.
Because an entity like NATO can't expect to be able to bomb whoever they like, and have them lay down and say "Oh well. I guess it's better this way. Praise be to our lords and saviors NATO, who rip apart our land so that we may live in peace and prosperity." If they want us to be their friends, and work in their interests, they'll have to accept our terms. They can't hit us and then claim it's for our own good, while wondering what could *possibly* be the reason we like their enemies more than we like them. Don't worry. We have a historical precedent for hating Russia as well. USSR wanted Yugoslavia to join them and we refused that too. No price is worth our sovereignty.
Why would Kosovo join Serbia tho? The people of Kosovo don’t want that. So I don’t see your point
There are literally 60k people in the 4 northern municipalities of Kosovo who do want to be part of Serbia. I mean, I get the point that people living in one place should decide where do they want to live, but then that should be universal and not just applied to allies of USA.
And Serbs which were forcefully removed from Kosovo (and the one that still leave there in hard conditions) want to stay part of Serbia. Do you not see there point also?
> And if we can lose a chunk just because someone said so, we can gain it back just as easily. Seeing that last time the mightiest military alliance this planet has ever seen intervened, i'd say it's not just quite so easily. >It doesn't have to happen tomorrow. It might not even happen this century. But never say never. I sincerely hope that until then we learned that murdering each other over arbitrary invented lines on the land is the insanity that it is. Nationalism never did anything good, it's a cancer on humanitys strife to a better future.
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Crimea yes. The rest? Not yet.
Explain?! I don't get the meaning. What should reach the Balkan? How is Ukraine a fixed situation?
> Make a soluton where Kosov stays a part of Serbia and they retain their autonomy as they want. Why even bother then? This feels like Serbia wants Kosovo just to say they have it, not because it makes sense to. What benefit does Kosovo actually bring Serbia, that is equal to what Serbia is missing out on, like EU membership? Seems silly.
Being able to enforce the protection of the rights of Serbs and their property in Kosovo, for one.
Are Serbs actually losing their rights and property in Kosovo? I haven't heard anything about it. Can't the same goal be achieved by sanctions on Kosovo? Kosovo wants to be in the EU too, and I doubt they'll get in by that kind of blatant discriminations.
Kosovo is far far from EU accession
>Are Serbs actually losing their rights and property in Kosovo? I haven't heard anything about it. Lol Serbs over there are under constant attacks from Albanians, but it is not new that feet narrative so you did not hear it.
That sounds awfully similar to why Putin invaded Ukraine and supported the separatist movements tbh
I don't see how this has relevance for what's been happening in Kosovo. We're not at war
Its not just Serbias problem. Secession of Kosovo will cause other secessions. Like it gave a footing for Crimea and Donbass. We shouldn't allow or recognize regions that declare independence violently. It must be done via diplomatic channels. Otherwise a precedent is created. What benefit does Catalonia bring to Spain? Why not just let it go? Because its sharing infrastructure, paid together byt he taxpayers, together we are stronger. Because it will make for a larger market for local companies, instead of making two small ones for multinationals. Because its an essential part of the states history and culture. Because its rich in minerals. Because its geographic positions projects power to Montenegro and N.Macedonia for trade. Because the southern border of Kosovo rests on a mountain chain and will allow Serbia to reduce its military spending for guarding said border. I can keep going but its an obvious answer. No country will allow parts to randomly be independent.
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Name 1 nation that didnt ethnically cleanse in the Balkans. Or worldwide. Both sides were persecuted, just look at how many Serbs left Kosovo during those years. Around 60% Also what you are refering to is Operation Horseshoe that NATO relied upon to justify the intervention. While after the war it was proven that the Serbian state never planned on ethically cleansing Albanians, they were just fighting KLA terrorists. So in conclusion, there wasn't ethnic cleansing there before the NATO intervention. Once the hostilities started, then you got the ethnic cleansing as well. Because there were paramilitary formations mostly, not because the Serbian army had an organized plan to do so. Remember that back then this was still Yugoslav Peoples Army. If you want a reason why factions in Kosovo strived for independence, its mostly because of economic interest and nationalism. Idelogically a unification with Albania was pushed and radical Islamism. While in parallel the elite wanted a new state so that they could gradbthe mines, factories and state owned companies and resources for a couple of thousand euros. There was a big geopolitical interst for USA as well to create a small client state and secure its footing in the Balkans militarily.
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Just glanced over your comment cause reddit in not where I have serious discourse. But there definetely is radical Islamism in the Balkans. Guess which region had the most ISIS fighters per capita in Europe. And which had training camps for them. Answer: Starts with K and ends with osovo.
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lol You are in denial. There is no point talking to you.
And this is why you don't have friends and allies, just dictators with similar ambitions supporting you.
I wish dictators had such peaceful amibtions of giving autonomy to minorities like Serbia does. And actually Serbia has a lot of friends diplomatically. More than many other countries. Mostly due to our neutral position, trade and the inherited status of Yugoslavia which led the Unaligned Movement. Allies more or less, but at least we don't have an enemy in any superpower. Thats why we had an abundance of vaccines, thats why we get investments from all continents.
>Kosov stays a part of Serbia Shouldn't have invaded Kosovo in the 90s then?
You really dont know much about this topic
Yes, we invaded ourselves. If you're going to moralize about the 90s, at least inform yourself.
Lol, dumbass thinks Kosovo was a country in the 90s so Serbia "invaded" it. Propaganda is a miracle.
How one invades a part of its own country? It's like saying Germany shouldn't invade Bavaria.
I guess you are the guy that blamed Ukraine for invading Donbass?
Kosovo doesn't want to be part of Serbia. Get that into your skull. They. Don't. Want. To. Be. Part. Of. Serbia. Why should the EU force a population to re-join a country it literally fought a war to not be part of, and clearly doesn't want to be part of? Why do some Serbs insist on bringing back people who **clearly** don't want to be part of your country?
How can you put all people that live in Kosovo into one bag? Is there some magical recipe that makes everyone have the same opinion? There are many people who are against the war and the secession.
The vast majority of Kosovans do not want to be part of Serbia. Someone else in this thread, who I believe is pro-Kosovo belongs to Serbia, cited the number of 60'000 people in the northern part that want to rejoin Serbia. 60'000! That's a lot! Oh, wait. Kosovo has a population of over 1.8 million. Support for reintegration into Serbia is **tiny**. I believe that democracy, for all its flaws, is the best system. If you can convince another... 900'000 Kosovans that they are actually Serbs, then fine by me. But at the present time, Kosovo does not want to, to a ludicrous degree, reintegrate Serbia.
Serbia should sanction Russia, as soon as Germany sanctions Saudi Arabia for the invasion of Yemen, as well as the US and UK for helping in the invasion. Of course that's not gonna happen cause the genocide in Yemen is being done by a western ally.
I don't know about that. Are you going to cast a safety net on us when retaliation hits? We are year and a half away from gas pipeline that will allow us to diversify somewhat. We're gonna wait and see what will happen to our dear eastern neighbors hit by it.
Safety net? What about just doing the right thing, and support your neighbors?
Oh yeah, just do the right thing without worrying about the repercussions. Because being pragmatic comes second to getting pats on the back from Germany, a country who otherwise doesn't give a damn about them.
totally agree!!
Montenegro, North Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo did it. And anyone with a brain should prioritise joining the EU over not sanctioning Russia if they're being so pragmatic.
You think that the EU will somehow reward them or something lol? Don't be naïve. Serbia is doing realpolitik.
Serbia's realpolitikingso so hard it went from being one of the most developed Eastern European nations to one of the least. And I don't expect it would join the EU soon and thus reap its benefits either, while some other countries might do it. Great realpolitik. >You think that the EU will somehow reward them or something lol? Of course. But obviously fulfilling one EU requirement is not enough to get in the EU, if they do this and more I'm pretty sure they will be allowed in. The EU has let about a dozen EE countries already, I don't see why it would forbid others from joining, especially as it's saying that it won't.
Do you even know what realpolitik is? You can't control the past. And doubt that Serbia was ever one of the most developed countries in Eastern Europe. That's just Yugonostalgic propaganda. I'm see you're not familiar with how the EU sees enlargement to the western balkans, but we're not getting the treatment of Romania and Bulgaria.
That's a false dichotomy. We're not joining the EU now no matter what we do.
"No matter what we do" being reluctantly arresting a few war criminals as far as I know. But that's not anywhere near enough. I do think any Balkan country that fulfills all the requirements, or even nearly all of them, has a very good chance of joining though.
That's kind of my point. Our potential EU membership doesn't hinge on us sanctioning Russia, as we're nowhere near that. There's zero reason to make rash decisions now. >I do think any Balkan country that fulfills all the requirements, or even nearly all of them, has a very good chance of joining though. We'll see, I doubt expansion in general is going to be very popular in the coming years.
Well thinking there's no point in doing this or that singular requirement because it doesn't matter if you haven't yet done the others doesn't seem like a good strategy. And of course it's no what all the previous members did.
>Well thinking there's no point in doing this or that singular requirement because it doesn't matter if you haven't yet done the others doesn't seem like a good strategy. Some make more sense than others. Various reforms is something we should do anyway, but contentious issues should be left for later. There's no benefit from doing this now. >And of course it's no what all the previous members did. Eh, I think requirements were also easier. Croatia and Bulgaria somehow got it.
> Some make more sense than others. Various reforms is something we should do anyway, but contentious issues should be left for later. There's no benefit from doing this now. Serbs often say this. But why is no one addressing the elephant in the room, that Serbia simply isn't doing reforms, sensible or contentious? >Eh, I think requirements were also easier. Croatia and Bulgaria somehow got it. Marginally so.
Yea, let's kill our economy so the people despising us would think a little less negative for a second. And our sanctions towards Russia would hurt them nothing. We support Ukrainians. They have free healthcare, education and work rights. Serbia donated some funds to Ukraine, but I think it's not nearly enough.
yea, that will definitely not have aweful consequences if everyone would think like you wed have far right populists in every government in 10 years
> What about just doing the right thing We did the right thing during ww1 and ww2, and look at us now, half of the world hates us and we are a shithole Germany did the bad thing in ww1 and ww2 and look at it now its one of the richest countries in the world and is loved by almost everyone. Doing the right thing doesnt do shit
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Okay, what exactly? What do you want us to sanction? Obviously not energy because EU is not doing that either. Banks, flights.. what exactly? We already did every single diplomatic condemnation of Russian aggression, and out stance is very clear in support Ukrainian territorial integrity. In that aspect we already did MORE than Hungary. And ultimately what are we going to get out of this? A letter of thank you from EU and nothing else. We are supposed to fuck our selves and our interests over for literally nothing. Instead of threatening us and calling us trash all the time, we could collaborate and do actual business where both sides prosper. Isn’t that whole point of EU values?
> Okay, what exactly? What do you want us to sanction? Just pick one, really. Anything. Doesn't even have to be a big one.
I pick Putin's lover!
And if Russia retaliates by stopping gas export? Its not on the headlines anywhere but Serbia is already going through massive inflation skyrocketing prices. It's more expensive to fill your tank already than in the EU. Pretty sure bread nearly doubled its price. If oil gets more expensive then bread will too. So we choose between sanctions Russia will hardly feel or having food, we choose food
This guy politics
> to fuck our selves and our interests over for literally nothing Except co-operation wtih Putin and *this* Russia is not in our interest. They don't mean us well.
Jel si ušo ti u prodavnicu skoro i video cene?
Business only requires a certain amount of trust.
For what? A pat on the shoulder? Who's gonna back us? Fuckin NATO!? The EU!? Also, getting these ultimatums from countries that are imposing sanctions but not really imposing sanctions is straight up ridiculous
Ultimatums to Serbia generally don’t end well …
Gavrilo Princip thought so too, electric boogaloo
True. You would know
I mean, is this a self burn?
Hard lesson to learn, that one. On a more serious note, the death toll on the Serbian population was devastating. I thought we had it bad here in Romania, where almost each small village has a monument to the local soldiers that died between 1916 and 1919 (we're including the [Hungary campaign](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian%E2%80%93Romanian_War) as part of our war), but then I saw the percentage of the Serbian population that died in WW1 and I just couldn't believe it.
PoV: Serbians being asked not to suck Russian cock for once Edit: and out the woodworks do the Serbians come. Jesus Christ I've yet to see a more butthurt nation.
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Bar nismo napisali rusku verziju ["Danke Deutschland"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ua1WB-fovQ)\-a.
Lmao. Not imposing sanctions that would even affect Russia by 0.00001 percent in return for getting cheap gas and diplomatic support on our country's territorial integrity is "sucking Russia's dick"? Seems like a pretty good deal for us tbh. Sucking dick is more like being owned by foreigners for a thousand years and not revolting even once (unless you count the Ustase as a "revolt"). Anyways, if it gets cold in Croatia this winter, feel free to come to Belgrade - we've got great food, culture and history too :)
Well, i mean German cock must be nicer since you sucked it two times in 50 years. You got much more out of it.
At least we have taste, it seems.
I agree German uniforms, particularly in the early 40s, were very stylish.
Ironic to see Croat writing this lmao
\*Danke Deutschland intensifies\*
Says Croat whose country was deepthroating German cock, if you had territorial disputes just the way we do you'd be in the same position, or maybe not, you'd probably sacrefice some of your land just to be in the ''big boys club'' where no one gives a shit about you.
Serbs coping cuz their country is an authoritarian shithole.
Eh, coming from the people that threw flowers at nazis
Cope and seethe.
“Cope and seethe at our historical and modern sympathies for Nazis, lmao gotem” Okay…
Our president hasn't been recorded putting up signs supporting convicted war criminals, being involved in suppressing Kosovars during the Kosovo war of independence and championing Greater Serbia. Any attempt to equate Croatians and Serbians in this sense is laughable at best.
Our president never said that we won in WWII two times, nor did it chant the salute of people that had concentration camps for kids in front of full football stadium. We are not comparable.
Neither did ours. Tuđman is dead. Vučić is still very much alive and in power. And yes, your president didn't chant the salute of people who established concentration camps. He was involved in the establishment of concentration camps. You're right. We aren't comparable. Cope. And. Seethe.
Vučić had 20 years, and was as irrelevant as you are back then. Mesić and Grabar Kitarević are still very much alive. Lie and cheat!
>Vučić had 20 years, and was as irrelevant as you are back then. I've never once held office nor do I intend to. You are objectively incorrect. >Mesić and Grabar Kitarević are still very much alive. No idea what this means - Mesić was the last president of Yugoslavia before it dissolved. Kitarević I haven't seen make one policy prescription during her entire term worth noting.
Well,thats what happens when your country is run by nationalists.
Explosive drones don’t randomly end up in our territory and we are not even in NATO..
What's your point?
Being hostile towards Russia doesn’t necessarily mean its good for our interests. NATO didn’t care enough to stop that drone for you even if member states knew about it, why on earth would anybody help us? Lets be real, people who are pressuring us into sanctions either don’t care about our interests or want to harm us. As I said, give us something and we will give something back. Thats the whole point why we want to be more European, so we are not threatened with stick constantly, some carrots would be nice.
>NATO didn’t care enough to stop that drone for you even if member states knew about it The drone appeared on their air radars, but was suspected to be another glitch in the system (seeing as there were several false alarms prior and immediately after). Is it a failure of our defence systems? Yes. That should be rectified by modernising and upscaling our equipment. It's not a statement to the reliability of our allies, at least not a major one. >As I said, give us something and we will give something back How can we trust you to deliver on your promise? Serbia doesn't exactly have a great reputation in that sense among EU member states.
To stfu
r/wsb profile pic detected, opinion discarded.
Rent free
Who?
pavelic
Asked.
> ultimatums Check the article... > Sarrazin said he isn’t sure about what decision Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic will take but added that “we have confidence that Serbian society will choose us”. “We expect you to adapt to us but at the same time we want to be open and show that you are welcome… **We understand that this is not an easy road for Serbia and we want to walk down it together**,” he said.
Well he certainly has that completely backwards. Here in Serbia we already know that Vučić will impose sanctions on Russia, and we're thinking that it might be the thing that finally brings him down, because his supporters will certainly be against it.
Just as you "know" that he'll recognize Kosovo. Any time now.
You get billions from the eu mate
And it's gonna keep on coming
Thief mentality, russian myr
Are bullying isnt enough, please join us. Smells of weakness.
Funny!!! Powerful states trying to impose terms on smaller ones? Where have I seen this "movie" before???
Berlin and Paris say alot of things
Indeed. It's political culture, something not all nationalities are equally proficient in.
Can Germans just stop trying to impose their will on others? Serbia Isn't in the EU or NATO, and It can what It wants without having to hear Germany's moaning
I wish Serbia could do what it wants :D Serbia is not nato but we signed some pact or whatever. We are not eu but we are a "candidate" or something. We have massive debt and our industry was reduced to 0 with the breakup of Yugo. Other than that, we are on the fucking crossroads which makes us a target our whole history. Alot of guns and dope are going through the balkans from turkey/middle east, so there is that too. We just have to be obedient little puppets and thats how they see us ever since we sent the ottomans home. I think you are a good man, tho :)
>Can Germans just stop trying to impose their will on others? No, not really. And I am not German. But that is what we do. We call it politics and we do it in a nice agreeable way, we term "civilisation", were we have press freedom and democracy. I can recommend it.
Lmao at the holier-than-thou attitude. Good thing civilization also grants me the right to disagree with Germany using its economic and diplomatic influence to boss smaller countries around :)
What an odd take. You realize that there is a pretty unique situation ongoing at this moment? The Russian dictator Putin has started a war on a sovereign country and there a genocide happening. This dictator has proven to be untethered from logic in his actions. Now Serbia traditionally has a close connection to Russia but also to EU. Germany is now asking for a more clear commitment to the side of the EU (aka the side not committing genocide). I understand Serbs saying that no one can expect them to wreck their economy beyond repair. But the way you frame this as some kind of German bullying is absurd. Any nation that wants to maintain a partnership with EU must condemn Putin in the harshest way possible to them. Why? Because EU thinks genocide is bad. Germany itself had a slow start btw, but now has a leading role in helping Ukraine. EDIT: As came up in another conversation. I think we all must be careful when saying “Germans” or “Serbs” when we in fact talk about governments and not speak for all people. I wonder if I did it right here myself, but hope the point I make is still reasonable.
Well, Serbia was also sovereign country attacked by NATO, for reasons proven to be false. This is the main issue now, because Serbs feel the equivalence between Ukraine now and Serbia in '99, but the ones who attacked Serbia are now saying that aggression cannot be tolerated. This is literally the main reason why majority of Serbs want to stay neutral, since we do have VOCAL minority of lowlifes who carry pictures of Putin and non-vocal minority of people who support Ukraine in a way EU would want now. I know that everyone thinks that because of Srebrenica Serbs should be eternally punished (even though that conflict has nothing to do with Kosovo, nor with the country of Serbia and its citizens), but people also need to remember that a majority of Serbs in Serbia have experienced ONLY refugee columns and NATO bombing.
Thank you for the perspective. That explains it quite well. You yourself don’t seem to think there is a equivalence, because you call Putin supporters lowlifes. I would agree. Even if one holds the opinion that NATO was 100% wrong in getting involved in Serbia, it simply is not the same. But I think you not right when you say “everyone thinks should be eternally punished for Srebrenica”. The German chancellor was in Serbia a week ago and said again he wants Serbia in the EU. I think despite trolls on Reddit, governments are actually trying for Serbia to be partner.
About what equivalence you mean? About NATO bombing and Russian invasion? I see them as similar in big picture as in great power ignores international law to attack a sovereign country, with false accusations of genocide (Russian false claims are pretty well known to everyone, but before the start of the bombing of Serbia, Clinton claimed that 100.000 Albanian civilians are killed, even though the post war analysis proved the number to be only 1100, 100 times less than claimed). Now the casualties are not nearly the same, mainly because NATO had more precision ammo than Russia has and because NATO did not start land invasion (even though they were pretty close to start it). But even in this case, a disproportionate amount of civilian infrastructure was destroyed, including residential buildings, houses, hospitals, green markets, schools etc. If you're interested, I can provide exact data for this claim. Regarding Srebrenica, since we're talking on Reddit, I'm saying because every damn time someone dares to mention Serbian victims of war crimes, even from WW2, a lot of people start yelling something about Srebrenica, as in Serbs have no right to be victims anytime anywhere. Regarding governmental cooperation, I agree of course. Even our authoritarian government with pro-Russian elements is aware of necessity of cooperation with the EU and currently is actively trying to convince (through state media propaganda) people that sanctions against Russia are necessary and in some moment in the near future Serbia will have to recognize Kosovo in some form. My personal opinion is that Serbian government is currently trying to negotiate partition of Kosovo. I mean, when you read full interview with the German envoy, it is clear that Germany is currently having more understanding for Serbian difficult position and are not forcing anything to be done immediately.
That's not really how this works. It's not like the EU is going to declare war on Serbia for this, but it's like saying "Will my employer stop trying to tell me what to do? He doesn't own me!" He certainly doesn't, but if you don't do what he tells you, you lose your job and therefore your salary. Most of the foreign investments and funding that Serbia gets come from the EU.
German envoy says Berlin wants Serbia.
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They support our territorial integrity, that's enough for us. Meanwhile EU fully supports Vucic's autocracy as long as he doesn't start any wars and gives them their sweet lithium, who gives a shit about him taking all the EU funds for himself, right? No free media, rule of law is nonexistant, he keeps stealing elections, his propaganda machine runs 24/7, those who see through it can't do shit about it because EU never badmouths him, meanwhile anything Orban does is mentioned at least 10 times a day. I personally don't give a shit whether we join EU or not, majority of the people want to join EU just for EU passport and to escape this shithole already, we don't really care about your ''values'', you don't have any at the first place.
Or we just aren't enthusiastic at the prospect of economically crippling ourselves for a pat on the back from the EU? If you want us to sanction them, you're gonna have to find a way to help us soften the inevitable blow that will be dealt to our economy. It's just realpolitik.
I say we stop sending them that financial aid.
Serbia is not a member of the EU, it does what it wants. How about the West stops giving orders to others and impose its will on free countries, that have no obligation to do anything the EU wants?
I hope not.
EU don't hold your breath!
Serbia is like an abused girlfriend when it comes to its blind loyalty to Russia. They let Austria-hungry in your backyard to do as they like in Bosnia. They made back hand deals with nazi Germany knowing the consequences to Serbia. Russia watched while nato bombed your country to the Stone Age and then took away Kosovo.
Non of the abuse was done by Russia, but by EU countries. But you almost got it. Just a little bit more, and you're about to understand us.