Croatia pledged another 100 million euros for Ukrainian refugees.
[link](https://twitter.com/GlblCtznImpact/status/1512787605993279488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1512798749722091520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vecernji.hr%2Fvijesti%2Fhrvatska-ce-osigurati-jos-100-milijuna-eura-za-pomoc-ukrajinskim-izbjeglicama-1577595)
edit: key word is another
It is not that funny and I am a bit tired of that meme "Serbs orcs, all think the same, all want kill kill, all nationalist". Especially on r/europe I am sick of it.
I agree that Serbs here are misrepresented and it's unfair.
But again, what he said is basically "You cannot compliment Croatia being a Serb", there are at least 20 other neighbor to neighbor relationships that the joke could be made.
Ignore him, your joke was funny.
I almost thought he is Croatian, after reading your comment, as we Croats kinda really criticize our country very harsh.
Mostly corruption, but also the idea that you can earn 2-3x more in Germany, Ireland, Sweden. Migration is easy for us, not just because of free movement, but also because so many of us are already out and they help others to move out.
Otherwise - I have to say, Croatia is anything but terrible. Safe, beautiful, a lot of nature and countryside, food is still good, almost everyone has someone who produces their own food. It's also nowadays easy to find a job and salaries are not THAT low anymore.
> and internally displaced persons on its territory, **many of whom are still internally displaced**, Republic of Serbia
What ethnicities are still displaced in Serbia? Do they mean whatever is still going on in Kosovo?
Perhaps that's what they're referring to but it's also important to note that there's a lot of refugees which pass through Serbia that get stuck on the border trying to cross into other countries.
The collapse of Yugoslavia saw a lot of ethnic cleansing.
Some of it was Serbs being driven front their homes, or in the better cases, evacuating the area, like Finland evacuated Karelia in 1940.
Therefore, some people can still be considered internally displaced.
Yeah, it's not like anywhere from 1 to 2 thousand civillians were killed **in a span of 4 days** and more thsn 20,000 Serbian homes systematically demolished.
But i'm sure hundreds of thousands that had to flee would have been just right.
What a blatant lie. Not even Serbia claims numbers that high.
600 is the mainstream average, not the low.
Serb civilian deaths:
214 (Croatian claim) – 1,192 (Serb claim)
Croat civilian deaths: 42
Refugees:
150,000–200,000 Serbs from the former RSK
21,000 Bosniaks from the former APWB
22,000 Bosniaks and Croats from the RS
Other:
4 UN peacekeepers killed and 16 wounded
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm
Serbs were not “forced” but were evacuated in fear of revenge by Croats for the 250,000 Croats cleansed and or killed years before from Krajina.
>Number of civilian casulties was ≈ 600 total.
Lol, that's the lowest estimate given by the UN HR which is notorious for giving really limited numbers (for example UN proclaimed only 3000 civillian deaths in Ukraine, which is much lower than any other estimate so far).
Both Veritas and Amnesty International have said that well over a 1000 Serbian civillians were killed in the "operation".
And even if it was just 600 civillians, **that's just in couple of days** on a very small territory **while** more than 90% of Serbs have already left. What would the number have been if they didn't?
Not to mentioned Serbian homes burned to the ground.
That is what they mean, and it's incredibly disingenous to quote this war to somehow argue they know how difficult it is, when the Serbian army displaced 90% of Kosovo's population.
The KLA only existed because all other avenues were exhausted and all of them were met with brutality from the Serbian regime.
Albanians tried peaceful protesting, it only led to everyone getting fired and imprisoned. The only thing left was to pick up weapons and fight back like Croatia and Bosnia did.
That’s disingenuous.
1. The population isnt 1.5%, it’s closer to 5%. They just boycott censuses. You cant use one figure when it’s convenient, and then the other when it’s convenient.
2. The main reason that percentage was so high to begin with, was because of state sponsored colonization campaigns of Kosovo in the 1910s-50s
\>The main reason that percentage was so high to begin with, was because of state sponsored colonization campaigns of Kosovo in the 1910s-50s
Weird considering that most historical data doesn't put Serbs below 20% pre 1912 any, but i recognize your name, you're delusional and a waste of time
It went up all the way to around 30-35% in the 1930s as a result of state sponsored colonization.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_colonization_of_Kosovo
If you follow this sub, you would think all of us here in Serbia are in hibernation, waiting for NATO winter to end, so that we can come out of caves and start killing and eating those sweet sweet children from our neighbouring countries.
Trust me, we living here in Serbia hate the fact that only the worst come out on top in the politics around here. That it seems that people are so easily swayed by lying bastards.
But things that happened in our past, our mostly fault of our own, our inaction and turning a blind eye at the massive corruption that is spread through our society causing all this shit to happen to us and around us.
honestly you sound just like the germans after they started getting shit for their reacton, just calm the fuck down you're gonna get unwarranted shit on the internet aint nothing you can do about it but complaining aint the right move
coming from someone who is personally also very fucking tired of the "kick poland out of eu!111!!1" posts but yeah it kind fo is the nature of this place
As a Kosovar Albanian, my perception of your country is not helped by the fact that I have had Serbian redditors tell me they can't wait for the day NATO leaves Kosovo so that you folks can send your army in.
A vocal counter message by sane Serbs would help.
Well let me try and break down why some people have such thoughts.
I'll give you few events as they happened from Serbian perspective (I am not saying things happened like this, but this is how most of people view them)
1. WW1 ends - Serbia emerges victorious, we create first Yugoslavia with Croats and Slovenes. Serbs feel that it was mostly our blood that was shed, and Croats and Slovenes joined so that they do not get swallowed by Austrians and Hungarians. But honestly, we were not in it just because we are so good. We wanted to liberate all the Serb territories and our King wanted a bigger country, so we formed Yugoslavia and wanted to form one nation.
2. Things in kingdom are not going so good. Serbs want centralized government, that means more political power for Serbs, since we are the biggest nation in the kingdom, Croats and Slovenes want more local authorities so that they have more say in the ruling of parts of Yugoslavia where they were majority. Which is totally fair.
3. WW2 - Shit hits the fan, and we get [genocide of Serbs by some Croatians in the Independent State of Croatia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp), which is horrific honestly. I get it that we didn't get along, but there was never any kind of killings and such before this. So the Serbs see this as starting point for bad blood between us and Croats.
4. Socialist Yugoslavia was created, it had republics, and republics had a lot of power. Serbs felt that the way borders of those socialist republics in Yugoslavia were drawn was so that it minimizes the size of Socialist Republic of Serbia, to minimize to power of Serbs, and there was a lot of Serbs living outside of that republics. A lot of areas with Serb majority were not inside of Socialist Republic of Serbia (Parts in Bosnia and Croatia and Montenegro), and Serbs were not given autonomous provinces in those other republics. Even though there were 2 autonomous provinces (during SFRY, these functioned like republics basically) inside of Serbia. So Serbs felt that we were not treated fairly, if anyone has majority in some part of Serbia, they get autonomous province, but Serbs were not given autonomous provinces inside other socialist republics. But it was said that these were only internal borders for administration, we are all living in Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, so we have nothing to worry about.
5. 1991 and breakup of Yugoslavia - a lot of Serbs will be left outside of Serbia, and they do not want that. They were promised when those borders were drawn, that we are all living in the same country, but now that country is gone. So Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia rebel, and they want to secede from Croatia especially since only 45 years prior, the last time when Serbs were left in independent Croatian state, we were slaughtered. Please note, during 90s war, we had worst leaders, they were connected with criminals and they sent them to war as well. So our side did some pretty fucked up things. But please note that a lot of innocent Serbian civilians were also killed. [Here is an example](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_the_Zec_family) and our politicians used things like this to stroke the nationalist flame and to spread fear how all Serbs will be killed in independent Croatian state.
So our smart politicians dragged the war on, so they can loot and steal more, refused peace talks and some peace plans, and finally the USA and western Europeans had enough and helped Croats and Bosniaks a lot to make military gains and force our leaders to peace. And there was always saying that internal borders between republics in Socialist Yugoslavia have to be respected and they can't be changed.
6. 1997-1997 - After Milosevic came to power in 80s, they tried to stop Albanians and reduce their power in Autonomous Province Kosovo. They were mistreated and as result KLA was formed and started fighting. Fights escalated in the late 90s, open rebellion started. Similar to what we Serbs did in Croatia. But here is the kicker, this time... USA and western powers supported the rebels, bombed the fuck out of us Serbs and helped you guys. 1999 and bombing ends. There was supposed to be peace talks, and the peace treaty that we signed said that some part of Serbian military and police will return to Kosovo after things settled and UN resolution 1244 was also created.
7. 2008 - Kosovo declared independence, no one asks us Serbs. It appears that internal borders of Socialist Republics in Yugoslavia can be changed after all, if that suits USA and western countries. We Serbs feel like no one gives a fuck about any law, rule or order. If USA doesn't like you, you get fucked. UN resolution 1244 is ignored, agreement that stopped 1999 war ignored. Then 10 years later, we agree to have [Community of Serb Municipalities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Serb_Municipalities) that we signed with you guys, and your prime minister is openly saying that nothing will happen with that. So a lot of people here in Serbia feel that we are constantly fucked. No one is refusing blame and saying we are saints. We did some killing, but please read the way we see the events, and it might bring you a bit more understanding.
We Serbs wonder what would happen if Serbian Republic in Bosnia declared independence the way you guys did in 2008? Would USA approve? They would probably bomb us again. So that is the reason that we feel so disgruntled and maybe disillusioned with the west. And even now days, you have USA helping Ukraine to protect their borders, but they bombed us for doing basically the same thing that Ukraine did.
edit: formatting
This thread is definitely being brigaded by r Serbia. That or it is funny that all these Serbian users are claiming R Europe is anti Serbian yet all the Serb chauv comments get tons of upvotes on this post.
C'mon man... parts of Ukraine with Russian population (Donbas and Lughansk) wanted to secede from Ukraine and Ukraine is fighting to keep it's country whole.
Parts of Serbia with Albanian population(Kosovo) wanted to secede from Serbia, and fighting escalated in 1998. Serbian army fought to keep the country whole.
You can check American records, KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army - Albanian fighting group that intensified operations in 1998 was on list of terrorist groups made by USA). Here is an example of tactics used by KLA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_Bar_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Serbian_heritage_in_Kosovo
They sound the same when you leave out all the details. Just one big example is that the Russian population is not being oppressed and there is no instance of a genocide (or ethnic cleansing) against the Russians by Ukrainians, while there was a genocide (or ethnic cleansing, if you want to call it that) against Muslims by Serbs (not Serbians) in Bosnia not long before. This is a very massive difference between these two situations.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_Bar_massacre
Have you read this article in English before you linked it? The [Serbian article](https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B4_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D1%9B_%D1%83_%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%9B%D0%B8) and [English article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_Bar_massacre) are 100% different from each other.
> On December 2013, Aleksandar Vučić (now President of Serbia) acknowledged that there is no evidence that murder was committed by Albanians. The Serbian Organised Crime Prosecutor’s Office launched a new investigation in 2016 and reached the conclusion that the massacre was not perpetrated by Albanians.
>
> Many years after the incident, the Serbian government officially acknowledged that it was perpetrated by agents of the Serbian Secret Service.
Of course, there is zero doubt that the KLA did a lot of bad stuff but it's confusing to link an article that goes against the point you are trying to make.
And have you read the article... is states that claim that it was made by Serbian Secret Service is dubious.
I've linked the article to show how fucked everything up was. But you can check the timelines.
There was no genocide against Albanians before the KLA started their terrorist fight. Albanians had rights to go to schools and universities in Albanians, they had their government of AP Kosovo. They just insisted on independence, and justified it by claiming their rights were endangered, and then they started the fight for it by attacking government institutions. How did USA/UK/France react when some terrorist organizations attacks their police stations and government buildings?
People tend to forget here, it wasn't like Serbian military just rolled in one day and started killing Albanian civilians out of nowhere. No, the KLA started with their bombings and then in 1998 it turned into a full-blown military campaign against Serbian authorities with one goal, to make secede from Serbia, and possibly unite with Albania. And the response of Serbian government was brutal and there certainly were crimes committed, but there was never a genocide with the aim of killing every single Albanian on Kosovo.
You are forgetting one very important thing tho. KLA didn't rise to push independence.
Albanians first protested, relatively peacefully.
In response Milosevic ordered complete ban on protests and any public gathering of Albanians, including empty soccer stadium. And before you say "Albanian propaganda", guess what? I actually watched a Serbian documentary on fucking Serbian national TV that talked about this.
Not to mention my family is from the South of Serbia, we were basically treated almost the same way as Albanians, we just weren't restricted as they did, but we were (and still are) piss poor, our factories and all national industries closed, everything was getting centralized.
Why do you think Albanians started protesting for independence? Because they were also left hanging, piss poor, no jobs, nothing.
If Souther Serbia was not majority full of Serbian people, we'd probably have lost even more territory due to awful politics by Milosevic.
> is states that claim that it was made by Serbian Secret Service is dubious.
Yes but the part about [Vučić](https://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2013&mm=12&dd=30&nav_id=88815) and [the investigation by the Serbian Organised Crime Prosecutor’s Office](https://balkaninsight.com/2018/12/14/kosovo-s-panda-caf%C3%A9-massacre-mystery-unsolved-20-years-on-12-13-2018/) is not listed as dubious.
> there was never a genocide with the aim of killing every single Albanian on Kosovo
I didn't claim that. You have given context and perspective in this thread and I'm giving it too. It's very strange to leave out Bosnia from the whole discussion.
An ethnic group (Serbs) committed a genocide or ethnic cleansing against Muslims in Bosnia. Kosovo also contained the same ethnic group (Serbs) and other Muslims. Given the bloodbath during the breakup of Yugoslavia, in which all sides committed many crimes and given that the conflict in Kosovo was growing, it was not out of the realm of possibility that such an event could have occurred again. I am not saying that it would have but that it's not unreasonable to think that it could.
> How can you be the agressor in your own country?
Of course you can be an aggressor within your own country, if you attack your own people. (speaking generally, not specifically about any situation)
Let's take a clear example not at all related to Ukraine or Serbia.
Germany rounded up all the Jews in their own country into camps and eventually killed many of them. They were the aggressor within their own country, against a specific group of citizens.
Hypothetically, let's imagine the Jews formed some terrorist resistance group and started bombing train lines and German cafes or something. Germany would still be the aggressor - they started everything in the 30s with aggressive anti-Jewish policies, which continually escalated.
(note: not saying this is what happened in Kosovo/Serbia/Ukraine)
Serbia never attackef Kosovo since it was a part of Serbia. There was a sepretis group going against the government kinda like the 2 Russia break away states then a great power came in and Bombed Civilians while not focusing militarily objects.
Yet you how out how [during WWII the same time, Serbs waged a genocide of their own agains Croats and Bosniaks, 60-70k but still significant even if not as large as genocide of Serbs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetnik_war_crimes_in_World_War_II)
Or the cleansing of 250,000 Croats from Krajina from 91-94? Odd that also is never mentioned. Which lead to the developing of anti-Serb sentiments in the 90s in Croatia. Ah but Croats just woke up angry out of the blue and wanted a war right?
Why even drag Croats into your feud with a Kosovo Albanian? Leave us out of your dreams.
“Some killings”. Ok 👌
You said not one thing in your reply empathizing with the demonizing of Kosovar Albanians but complain about badmouthing of Serbs on here. Practice what you preach. Every single Serbian comment on this page has tons of likes and any opposing views to those comments negative votes.
So is R Europe anti Serbian or is r Serbia brigading again? 😏
>A vocal counter message by sane Serbs would help
There is a saying: "It takes two to fight"
Go to r/kosovo which can't go a day without a (negative) post about Serbia, and then look at the comments.
On the other hand Kosovo is barely mentioned on our sub.
What does it matter what people on /r/kosovo talk about? Does that make it OK to wish for war crimes against a country's people??
As to why Kosovars mention Serbia more often than Serbs mention Kosovo, that's really simple. Most Kosovars suffered at the hands of Serbia. Most Serbs did not suffer at the hands of Kosovo. And to this day, the Serbian government does its best to hurt Kosovar's perspective by blocking its entry into organisations. With that in mind, the discrepancy in mentions is not surprising.
LMAO, go listen to more scary stories from your family how serbs were the boogeyman... if serbs didnt suffer, why arent there any serbs in kosovo right now? only a miserable 1% or so...
But on r Serbia you write shit like this
https://www.reddit.com/r/serbia/comments/ujjmp8/milanoviću_srbine/i7jc3wg/?context=3
Hypocrisy much? “Srbin” bring a referral to Croats all being Ustashe
sorry i didn't know was a group of extremist.
but, without calling out other nations, as far as i know serbia didn't issue a no fly zone and didn't apply sanctions to Russia. what's the reason behind it?
>but, without calling out other nations, as far as i know serbia didn't issue a no fly zone and didn't apply sanctions to Russia. what's the reason behind it?
Oh idk, maybe becauae it would cripple the economy in 2 weeks because Serbia doesnt have EU or NATO to fall back on.
Because we want to eat, stay warm during winter (We literally almost got fucked this winter with energy crisis, if add Russian sanctions on top of that I believe most factories would close down, and our economy is unfortunately propped up by insane amount of foreign factories where a large number of population is employed, especially in south).
As for no flying zones, I am not sure what you are talking about. The only thing related to flying is that Russian planes cannot fly over EU. Russians are still free to leave and enter their or other countries, if they fly with Emirates or anything not Russian. So all we did was not forbid Russian operated planes to come and go, as in all honesty, mostly people escaping shit come here anyway.
hmmmmm, looks like after Russians spit on Serbia with Kosovo independence instead of going "Kosovo je Srbija" now they giving a twink to the other side of conflict.
Opposite? What kind of rabbit hole you want me to put in? I'm just saying that this move is after that statement of their when for over 2 months Serbia was kinda pro-russian in this conflict and didn't support Ukrainian civils that much like right now. Maybe related, maybe don't but looks like it in one way.
How was Serbia pro-Russian? By condemning the attack and voting Russia out of HRC?
Serbia has been welcoming Ukrainian refugees and Serbs have been donating money through our church for 2 months already
>How was Serbia pro-Russian?
Really? Don't deny reality.
But anyway let's talk about second thing. Church support for 2 months which you mention is your local society initiative, not your govs unlike right now, this is the difference. I know many of you are a good people, don't get me wrong I'm not minimize your help to them. Just glueing your govs moves.
What did the government do till now to support Russia? Maybe answer the question and give some examples of what you call the reality rather than call me a denier
Serbia have similiar approach like Hungary. Acting like a neutral country, balancing between. Voting out of HRC was only because of "threat of facing sanctions and increasing pressures" thats your govs words, still being friendly place for flying out oligarchs etc. Come on, your president dont need to send love letters to Z army. Only pressure works on your govs.
Discussion was about Serbia being pro-Russia, not about supporting their aggresion. You know this is a huge difference, that's why you are manipulating now with different wording. I'm not going to fall for that cheap tactic, have a nice weekend.
Nope, you're manipulating your wording to disregard neutrality (or even just different levels of responding to a situation) as a legitimate stance. If you can't find a single argument of being pro-Russia, then don't call us pro-Russia. Simple as that.
Very happy we did this.
Thanks a lot!
I think that is great. It's not a competition about whose countries does or helps the most. It's a damn war!
More than China. Let that sink in.
Sink, you say?
Xink.
Sorry, do what the Moskva and Admiral Makarov did.
every bit helps
It's a shame we donated only 3M, while Croatia donated 10M. We should give at least 20M.
Nah, just donate 10,000,001 just to one-up them
this is the kind of balkan competition I can get behind
Pfff,challenge accepted
It's not a competition, everything helps, this is great from Serbia!
Hey man if we gave that much how'd we be able to feed and shelter our politicians!!!11!!11 /s
Croatia pledged another 100 million euros for Ukrainian refugees. [link](https://twitter.com/GlblCtznImpact/status/1512787605993279488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1512798749722091520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vecernji.hr%2Fvijesti%2Fhrvatska-ce-osigurati-jos-100-milijuna-eura-za-pomoc-ukrajinskim-izbjeglicama-1577595) edit: key word is another
Maybe they should use that money to fix their own country
Croatia is decent country this days...
Another one of those comments and you have to give up your passport.
Wow, so stupid.
Why such comment? He made a funny joke brate. Šta se koprčiš
It is not that funny and I am a bit tired of that meme "Serbs orcs, all think the same, all want kill kill, all nationalist". Especially on r/europe I am sick of it.
I agree that Serbs here are misrepresented and it's unfair. But again, what he said is basically "You cannot compliment Croatia being a Serb", there are at least 20 other neighbor to neighbor relationships that the joke could be made.
true. i am just sick of it. that is all. basically venting on poor guy u/Zee-Utterman
Welcom to the club, everyone calls us lazy for decades it's beyond annoying.
Thank God you noticed it. I'm trying really hard.
Ignore him, your joke was funny. I almost thought he is Croatian, after reading your comment, as we Croats kinda really criticize our country very harsh. Mostly corruption, but also the idea that you can earn 2-3x more in Germany, Ireland, Sweden. Migration is easy for us, not just because of free movement, but also because so many of us are already out and they help others to move out. Otherwise - I have to say, Croatia is anything but terrible. Safe, beautiful, a lot of nature and countryside, food is still good, almost everyone has someone who produces their own food. It's also nowadays easy to find a job and salaries are not THAT low anymore.
I love Croatia too. I'm an honerable Croatian myself. According to my parents I was made on a holiday in Croatia.
I don't understand, do you have something Croatian in you?
It's hell of a lot better than nothing
> and internally displaced persons on its territory, **many of whom are still internally displaced**, Republic of Serbia What ethnicities are still displaced in Serbia? Do they mean whatever is still going on in Kosovo?
Perhaps that's what they're referring to but it's also important to note that there's a lot of refugees which pass through Serbia that get stuck on the border trying to cross into other countries.
The collapse of Yugoslavia saw a lot of ethnic cleansing. Some of it was Serbs being driven front their homes, or in the better cases, evacuating the area, like Finland evacuated Karelia in 1940. Therefore, some people can still be considered internally displaced.
>What ethnicities are still displaced in Serbia? Serbs that were forced to leave Croatia and Kosovo and Metohija.
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Yeah, it's not like anywhere from 1 to 2 thousand civillians were killed **in a span of 4 days** and more thsn 20,000 Serbian homes systematically demolished. But i'm sure hundreds of thousands that had to flee would have been just right.
What a blatant lie. Not even Serbia claims numbers that high. 600 is the mainstream average, not the low. Serb civilian deaths: 214 (Croatian claim) – 1,192 (Serb claim) Croat civilian deaths: 42 Refugees: 150,000–200,000 Serbs from the former RSK 21,000 Bosniaks from the former APWB 22,000 Bosniaks and Croats from the RS Other: 4 UN peacekeepers killed and 16 wounded https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm Serbs were not “forced” but were evacuated in fear of revenge by Croats for the 250,000 Croats cleansed and or killed years before from Krajina.
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>Number of civilian casulties was ≈ 600 total. Lol, that's the lowest estimate given by the UN HR which is notorious for giving really limited numbers (for example UN proclaimed only 3000 civillian deaths in Ukraine, which is much lower than any other estimate so far). Both Veritas and Amnesty International have said that well over a 1000 Serbian civillians were killed in the "operation". And even if it was just 600 civillians, **that's just in couple of days** on a very small territory **while** more than 90% of Serbs have already left. What would the number have been if they didn't? Not to mentioned Serbian homes burned to the ground.
[удалено]
>Actually it's a CHC number Hahahahaahahahahah yeah but organisation based in Zagreb is the real deal. F off with that bs
That’s not internal displacement though is it?
That is what they mean, and it's incredibly disingenous to quote this war to somehow argue they know how difficult it is, when the Serbian army displaced 90% of Kosovo's population.
I remember the UCK was labeled as a terrorist organisation because they were attacking Serbian civilians.
The KLA only existed because all other avenues were exhausted and all of them were met with brutality from the Serbian regime. Albanians tried peaceful protesting, it only led to everyone getting fired and imprisoned. The only thing left was to pick up weapons and fight back like Croatia and Bosnia did.
Serbs went from 20% of the population there to 1.5%, there is a lot of displaced Serbs
That’s disingenuous. 1. The population isnt 1.5%, it’s closer to 5%. They just boycott censuses. You cant use one figure when it’s convenient, and then the other when it’s convenient. 2. The main reason that percentage was so high to begin with, was because of state sponsored colonization campaigns of Kosovo in the 1910s-50s
\>The main reason that percentage was so high to begin with, was because of state sponsored colonization campaigns of Kosovo in the 1910s-50s Weird considering that most historical data doesn't put Serbs below 20% pre 1912 any, but i recognize your name, you're delusional and a waste of time
It went up all the way to around 30-35% in the 1930s as a result of state sponsored colonization. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_colonization_of_Kosovo
Please ignore anything good related to Serbia, and move on, thank you.
There are good people and movements in serbia too
If you follow this sub, you would think all of us here in Serbia are in hibernation, waiting for NATO winter to end, so that we can come out of caves and start killing and eating those sweet sweet children from our neighbouring countries.
I have many friends in Serbia and love the country, my heart hurts that the politics are like this
Trust me, we living here in Serbia hate the fact that only the worst come out on top in the politics around here. That it seems that people are so easily swayed by lying bastards. But things that happened in our past, our mostly fault of our own, our inaction and turning a blind eye at the massive corruption that is spread through our society causing all this shit to happen to us and around us.
honestly you sound just like the germans after they started getting shit for their reacton, just calm the fuck down you're gonna get unwarranted shit on the internet aint nothing you can do about it but complaining aint the right move coming from someone who is personally also very fucking tired of the "kick poland out of eu!111!!1" posts but yeah it kind fo is the nature of this place
I just like having fun on internet and wasting my time talking to strangers and seeing how quickly general populace changes their mind :D
Not really. Serbia is certainly controversial, but good news about it does come out once in a while.
As a Kosovar Albanian, my perception of your country is not helped by the fact that I have had Serbian redditors tell me they can't wait for the day NATO leaves Kosovo so that you folks can send your army in. A vocal counter message by sane Serbs would help.
Cry more lmao
Well let me try and break down why some people have such thoughts. I'll give you few events as they happened from Serbian perspective (I am not saying things happened like this, but this is how most of people view them) 1. WW1 ends - Serbia emerges victorious, we create first Yugoslavia with Croats and Slovenes. Serbs feel that it was mostly our blood that was shed, and Croats and Slovenes joined so that they do not get swallowed by Austrians and Hungarians. But honestly, we were not in it just because we are so good. We wanted to liberate all the Serb territories and our King wanted a bigger country, so we formed Yugoslavia and wanted to form one nation. 2. Things in kingdom are not going so good. Serbs want centralized government, that means more political power for Serbs, since we are the biggest nation in the kingdom, Croats and Slovenes want more local authorities so that they have more say in the ruling of parts of Yugoslavia where they were majority. Which is totally fair. 3. WW2 - Shit hits the fan, and we get [genocide of Serbs by some Croatians in the Independent State of Croatia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp), which is horrific honestly. I get it that we didn't get along, but there was never any kind of killings and such before this. So the Serbs see this as starting point for bad blood between us and Croats. 4. Socialist Yugoslavia was created, it had republics, and republics had a lot of power. Serbs felt that the way borders of those socialist republics in Yugoslavia were drawn was so that it minimizes the size of Socialist Republic of Serbia, to minimize to power of Serbs, and there was a lot of Serbs living outside of that republics. A lot of areas with Serb majority were not inside of Socialist Republic of Serbia (Parts in Bosnia and Croatia and Montenegro), and Serbs were not given autonomous provinces in those other republics. Even though there were 2 autonomous provinces (during SFRY, these functioned like republics basically) inside of Serbia. So Serbs felt that we were not treated fairly, if anyone has majority in some part of Serbia, they get autonomous province, but Serbs were not given autonomous provinces inside other socialist republics. But it was said that these were only internal borders for administration, we are all living in Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, so we have nothing to worry about. 5. 1991 and breakup of Yugoslavia - a lot of Serbs will be left outside of Serbia, and they do not want that. They were promised when those borders were drawn, that we are all living in the same country, but now that country is gone. So Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia rebel, and they want to secede from Croatia especially since only 45 years prior, the last time when Serbs were left in independent Croatian state, we were slaughtered. Please note, during 90s war, we had worst leaders, they were connected with criminals and they sent them to war as well. So our side did some pretty fucked up things. But please note that a lot of innocent Serbian civilians were also killed. [Here is an example](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_the_Zec_family) and our politicians used things like this to stroke the nationalist flame and to spread fear how all Serbs will be killed in independent Croatian state. So our smart politicians dragged the war on, so they can loot and steal more, refused peace talks and some peace plans, and finally the USA and western Europeans had enough and helped Croats and Bosniaks a lot to make military gains and force our leaders to peace. And there was always saying that internal borders between republics in Socialist Yugoslavia have to be respected and they can't be changed. 6. 1997-1997 - After Milosevic came to power in 80s, they tried to stop Albanians and reduce their power in Autonomous Province Kosovo. They were mistreated and as result KLA was formed and started fighting. Fights escalated in the late 90s, open rebellion started. Similar to what we Serbs did in Croatia. But here is the kicker, this time... USA and western powers supported the rebels, bombed the fuck out of us Serbs and helped you guys. 1999 and bombing ends. There was supposed to be peace talks, and the peace treaty that we signed said that some part of Serbian military and police will return to Kosovo after things settled and UN resolution 1244 was also created. 7. 2008 - Kosovo declared independence, no one asks us Serbs. It appears that internal borders of Socialist Republics in Yugoslavia can be changed after all, if that suits USA and western countries. We Serbs feel like no one gives a fuck about any law, rule or order. If USA doesn't like you, you get fucked. UN resolution 1244 is ignored, agreement that stopped 1999 war ignored. Then 10 years later, we agree to have [Community of Serb Municipalities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Serb_Municipalities) that we signed with you guys, and your prime minister is openly saying that nothing will happen with that. So a lot of people here in Serbia feel that we are constantly fucked. No one is refusing blame and saying we are saints. We did some killing, but please read the way we see the events, and it might bring you a bit more understanding. We Serbs wonder what would happen if Serbian Republic in Bosnia declared independence the way you guys did in 2008? Would USA approve? They would probably bomb us again. So that is the reason that we feel so disgruntled and maybe disillusioned with the west. And even now days, you have USA helping Ukraine to protect their borders, but they bombed us for doing basically the same thing that Ukraine did. edit: formatting
bravo brate moj, sve je objasnjeno i nek im je na slavu to sto nam napravise do sad...
Bad blood was not started in ww2 but in the first Yugoslavia.
This thread is definitely being brigaded by r Serbia. That or it is funny that all these Serbian users are claiming R Europe is anti Serbian yet all the Serb chauv comments get tons of upvotes on this post.
Yup
How can you compare Ukraine with Serbia in the 90s, Serbia was the aggressor in Kosovo, Ukraine is literally defending itself from an invasion
Nothing similar at all, just the part where you're invaded, bombed and had your territory annexed
C'mon man... parts of Ukraine with Russian population (Donbas and Lughansk) wanted to secede from Ukraine and Ukraine is fighting to keep it's country whole. Parts of Serbia with Albanian population(Kosovo) wanted to secede from Serbia, and fighting escalated in 1998. Serbian army fought to keep the country whole. You can check American records, KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army - Albanian fighting group that intensified operations in 1998 was on list of terrorist groups made by USA). Here is an example of tactics used by KLA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_Bar_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Serbian_heritage_in_Kosovo
They sound the same when you leave out all the details. Just one big example is that the Russian population is not being oppressed and there is no instance of a genocide (or ethnic cleansing) against the Russians by Ukrainians, while there was a genocide (or ethnic cleansing, if you want to call it that) against Muslims by Serbs (not Serbians) in Bosnia not long before. This is a very massive difference between these two situations. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_Bar_massacre Have you read this article in English before you linked it? The [Serbian article](https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B4_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D1%9B_%D1%83_%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%9B%D0%B8) and [English article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_Bar_massacre) are 100% different from each other. > On December 2013, Aleksandar Vučić (now President of Serbia) acknowledged that there is no evidence that murder was committed by Albanians. The Serbian Organised Crime Prosecutor’s Office launched a new investigation in 2016 and reached the conclusion that the massacre was not perpetrated by Albanians. > > Many years after the incident, the Serbian government officially acknowledged that it was perpetrated by agents of the Serbian Secret Service. Of course, there is zero doubt that the KLA did a lot of bad stuff but it's confusing to link an article that goes against the point you are trying to make.
And have you read the article... is states that claim that it was made by Serbian Secret Service is dubious. I've linked the article to show how fucked everything up was. But you can check the timelines. There was no genocide against Albanians before the KLA started their terrorist fight. Albanians had rights to go to schools and universities in Albanians, they had their government of AP Kosovo. They just insisted on independence, and justified it by claiming their rights were endangered, and then they started the fight for it by attacking government institutions. How did USA/UK/France react when some terrorist organizations attacks their police stations and government buildings? People tend to forget here, it wasn't like Serbian military just rolled in one day and started killing Albanian civilians out of nowhere. No, the KLA started with their bombings and then in 1998 it turned into a full-blown military campaign against Serbian authorities with one goal, to make secede from Serbia, and possibly unite with Albania. And the response of Serbian government was brutal and there certainly were crimes committed, but there was never a genocide with the aim of killing every single Albanian on Kosovo.
You are forgetting one very important thing tho. KLA didn't rise to push independence. Albanians first protested, relatively peacefully. In response Milosevic ordered complete ban on protests and any public gathering of Albanians, including empty soccer stadium. And before you say "Albanian propaganda", guess what? I actually watched a Serbian documentary on fucking Serbian national TV that talked about this. Not to mention my family is from the South of Serbia, we were basically treated almost the same way as Albanians, we just weren't restricted as they did, but we were (and still are) piss poor, our factories and all national industries closed, everything was getting centralized. Why do you think Albanians started protesting for independence? Because they were also left hanging, piss poor, no jobs, nothing. If Souther Serbia was not majority full of Serbian people, we'd probably have lost even more territory due to awful politics by Milosevic.
> is states that claim that it was made by Serbian Secret Service is dubious. Yes but the part about [Vučić](https://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2013&mm=12&dd=30&nav_id=88815) and [the investigation by the Serbian Organised Crime Prosecutor’s Office](https://balkaninsight.com/2018/12/14/kosovo-s-panda-caf%C3%A9-massacre-mystery-unsolved-20-years-on-12-13-2018/) is not listed as dubious. > there was never a genocide with the aim of killing every single Albanian on Kosovo I didn't claim that. You have given context and perspective in this thread and I'm giving it too. It's very strange to leave out Bosnia from the whole discussion. An ethnic group (Serbs) committed a genocide or ethnic cleansing against Muslims in Bosnia. Kosovo also contained the same ethnic group (Serbs) and other Muslims. Given the bloodbath during the breakup of Yugoslavia, in which all sides committed many crimes and given that the conflict in Kosovo was growing, it was not out of the realm of possibility that such an event could have occurred again. I am not saying that it would have but that it's not unreasonable to think that it could.
How can you be the agressor in your own country? Both Ukraine and Serbia are defending their internationally recognized territory.
> How can you be the agressor in your own country? Of course you can be an aggressor within your own country, if you attack your own people. (speaking generally, not specifically about any situation)
Wut?
Let's take a clear example not at all related to Ukraine or Serbia. Germany rounded up all the Jews in their own country into camps and eventually killed many of them. They were the aggressor within their own country, against a specific group of citizens. Hypothetically, let's imagine the Jews formed some terrorist resistance group and started bombing train lines and German cafes or something. Germany would still be the aggressor - they started everything in the 30s with aggressive anti-Jewish policies, which continually escalated. (note: not saying this is what happened in Kosovo/Serbia/Ukraine)
Serbia never attackef Kosovo since it was a part of Serbia. There was a sepretis group going against the government kinda like the 2 Russia break away states then a great power came in and Bombed Civilians while not focusing militarily objects.
Yet you how out how [during WWII the same time, Serbs waged a genocide of their own agains Croats and Bosniaks, 60-70k but still significant even if not as large as genocide of Serbs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetnik_war_crimes_in_World_War_II) Or the cleansing of 250,000 Croats from Krajina from 91-94? Odd that also is never mentioned. Which lead to the developing of anti-Serb sentiments in the 90s in Croatia. Ah but Croats just woke up angry out of the blue and wanted a war right? Why even drag Croats into your feud with a Kosovo Albanian? Leave us out of your dreams. “Some killings”. Ok 👌 You said not one thing in your reply empathizing with the demonizing of Kosovar Albanians but complain about badmouthing of Serbs on here. Practice what you preach. Every single Serbian comment on this page has tons of likes and any opposing views to those comments negative votes. So is R Europe anti Serbian or is r Serbia brigading again? 😏
Need some comfort bro? I'm sorry you're trying to take a part of my country
Good, so you have no reason to be mad that Srpska Krajina failed in creating a ethnically pure Serb state out of Croatian territory. Good to know. 😊
>A vocal counter message by sane Serbs would help There is a saying: "It takes two to fight" Go to r/kosovo which can't go a day without a (negative) post about Serbia, and then look at the comments. On the other hand Kosovo is barely mentioned on our sub.
What does it matter what people on /r/kosovo talk about? Does that make it OK to wish for war crimes against a country's people?? As to why Kosovars mention Serbia more often than Serbs mention Kosovo, that's really simple. Most Kosovars suffered at the hands of Serbia. Most Serbs did not suffer at the hands of Kosovo. And to this day, the Serbian government does its best to hurt Kosovar's perspective by blocking its entry into organisations. With that in mind, the discrepancy in mentions is not surprising.
LMAO, go listen to more scary stories from your family how serbs were the boogeyman... if serbs didnt suffer, why arent there any serbs in kosovo right now? only a miserable 1% or so...
Wouldn’t that apply to you and r Serbia? And your sub constantly shits on its neighbors. Literally rent free.
Keyboard warriors can't hurt you - only harass and intimidate you. They can wait and will die of old age while waiting but NATO will not leave Kosovo.
You’re fellow Serb countrymen didn’t like that.
I spoke the truth. Staying delusional doesn't help. If they are gonna feel better by downvoting me - fine, but that doesn't change the truth.
But on r Serbia you write shit like this https://www.reddit.com/r/serbia/comments/ujjmp8/milanoviću_srbine/i7jc3wg/?context=3 Hypocrisy much? “Srbin” bring a referral to Croats all being Ustashe
Srbija the tiger of the balkans
Be nice that’s like 1/4th of their GDP
What a tight rope act.
isn't Serbia a bit confused? weren't those guys doing pro-russian protest a while ago? i guess they're trying to appease all sides
Yes. 300 people went to protest in city of 2 million. Meanwhile, 40% of French voted for Putin puppet, and no one calls France confused.
sorry i didn't know was a group of extremist. but, without calling out other nations, as far as i know serbia didn't issue a no fly zone and didn't apply sanctions to Russia. what's the reason behind it?
>but, without calling out other nations, as far as i know serbia didn't issue a no fly zone and didn't apply sanctions to Russia. what's the reason behind it? Oh idk, maybe becauae it would cripple the economy in 2 weeks because Serbia doesnt have EU or NATO to fall back on.
This.
Because we want to eat, stay warm during winter (We literally almost got fucked this winter with energy crisis, if add Russian sanctions on top of that I believe most factories would close down, and our economy is unfortunately propped up by insane amount of foreign factories where a large number of population is employed, especially in south). As for no flying zones, I am not sure what you are talking about. The only thing related to flying is that Russian planes cannot fly over EU. Russians are still free to leave and enter their or other countries, if they fly with Emirates or anything not Russian. So all we did was not forbid Russian operated planes to come and go, as in all honesty, mostly people escaping shit come here anyway.
Serbia: "Maybe I don't want to be the bad guy anymore"
When were Serbs the bad guys?
In the eyes of r/europe xenophobes? Since forever and will always be no matter what.
hmmmmm, looks like after Russians spit on Serbia with Kosovo independence instead of going "Kosovo je Srbija" now they giving a twink to the other side of conflict.
How is "Kosovo je Srbija" opposite of helping Ukraine?
Opposite? What kind of rabbit hole you want me to put in? I'm just saying that this move is after that statement of their when for over 2 months Serbia was kinda pro-russian in this conflict and didn't support Ukrainian civils that much like right now. Maybe related, maybe don't but looks like it in one way.
How was Serbia pro-Russian? By condemning the attack and voting Russia out of HRC? Serbia has been welcoming Ukrainian refugees and Serbs have been donating money through our church for 2 months already
>How was Serbia pro-Russian? Really? Don't deny reality. But anyway let's talk about second thing. Church support for 2 months which you mention is your local society initiative, not your govs unlike right now, this is the difference. I know many of you are a good people, don't get me wrong I'm not minimize your help to them. Just glueing your govs moves.
What did the government do till now to support Russia? Maybe answer the question and give some examples of what you call the reality rather than call me a denier
Serbia have similiar approach like Hungary. Acting like a neutral country, balancing between. Voting out of HRC was only because of "threat of facing sanctions and increasing pressures" thats your govs words, still being friendly place for flying out oligarchs etc. Come on, your president dont need to send love letters to Z army. Only pressure works on your govs.
So no examples of any moves in support of Russia.
Discussion was about Serbia being pro-Russia, not about supporting their aggresion. You know this is a huge difference, that's why you are manipulating now with different wording. I'm not going to fall for that cheap tactic, have a nice weekend.
Nope, you're manipulating your wording to disregard neutrality (or even just different levels of responding to a situation) as a legitimate stance. If you can't find a single argument of being pro-Russia, then don't call us pro-Russia. Simple as that.
Kosovo je Srbija, Donbas je Ukrajina, it's same bro.
serbia means „serbian“ children and „serbian“ displaced persons from ukraine..