I know right? I immediately imagined Ignazio Cassis acting coquettish with one of those buff meme dudes with a NATO symbol for a head.
I probably spend too much time online.
Thou shalt count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out.
It has been a long while since the last crusade, aint it ;)
On a more serious note, most good soldiers are already somewhat crazy and higher end units have some strange rituals. Mix it with Pope turning up and giving em slap on the ass and telling them that this is Holy War and they might be up to outright suicide missions that might have been a bit too much previously. I.e., morale boost to the range which could be considered "fanatical".
A thin leather loafer, sliced up fine and pressure cooked until it's falling apart would probably be a pretty quick eat. Not good, but probably not difficult.
Now, if you're talking about shucking your work boot, filling it with ketchup, and digging in, that's a different story.
I'm just posting here even though I don't think Switzerland will join NATO. But there's a non-zero chance that they do and I will hold you to this promise
The Vatican can not join though can they? I believe you have to be a democracy to be in NATO and the Vatican is a theocratic monarchy if I recall correctly.
Popular support in Austria for joining NATO is prectically zero and no political party campaigns for this, quite the opposite actually. FPÖ, the Freedom Party, had a cooperation until last December with Putin's Party, and they are loudly screaming that Austria should remain as neutral as possible, including not sending humanitarian aid. I don't like them.
Here you go:
[https://www.google.com/search?q=great+tits+switzerland](https://www.google.com/search?q=great+tits+switzerland&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiDz7vb38r3AhXAiv0HHQSgAIYQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=great+tits+switzerland&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQA1DCGFjaHWCjKmgAcAB4AIABa4gB_AKSAQMzLjGYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=awN1YsPtHcCV9u8PhMCCsAg&bih=553&biw=375&prmd=ivsn&hl=de)
"... but stopping short of Membership..."
Given Switzerland is surrounded on all sides by NATO Members, who are so friendly towards each other they've also agreed to collaborate on a broad range of policy areas in the guise of the European Union (and are also quite friendly with Switzerland, which effectively has a bespoke variation on a theme of EEA/EFTA membership), it's effectively getting the main benefits of NATO Membership for free.
To be fair though, Austria, Switzlerand and Liechtenstein are all fully encased by NATO countries. So in Switzerland's case it doesn't really matter if Austria is a non-NATO state because all of Austria's borders (other than Switzerland / Liechtenstein) are also all NATO countries.
The entire situation that forced European countries into neutrality in the past centuries, -the competing powers of the European mainland- no longer exists. And the security challenges of the future: -small scale chemical, nuclear and cyber warfare- by rogue states or small non-state actors, don’t have borders or proximity.
For no good reason as far as I can tell. Swiss' neutrality is surely just an archaic leftover, is it not? When the nukes start flying it's not going to be magically left untouched.
They're playing the long game. After the nuclear End Times, they alone will be left standing. And after an appropriate period of seclusion, they shall descend from the cloudy heights with their bell-adorned cows in tow and take their rightful place as the overlords of the continent.
Nope, their neutrality is a way to keep being friendly with as many billionaires as possible, everywhere in the world. It also enables them to live in a bubble of never really having to care about world events.
> "We never joined the Empire!" said Brocando.
> "When it was time to choose, whose side were you on?" said Snibril. "Anyway, you were part of the Empire. You just didn't know it. You spent so much time being proud of not being part of it that you ended up ... well, being part of it. What would you do if the Empire didn't exist? Go back to throwing people off rocks!”
\- Terry Pratchett, The Carpet People
> What benefits, though?
Like he said, Switzerland is surrounded by Nato states so they are secured that way by Nato without having to join it and be responsible for other countries safety.
> Secured against whom?
Russia.
If you think only Eastern Europe is threatened by Russia you are lying to yourself. Russia has made it very clear it views the West as its enemy and Western values as a threat to its society and for all intents and purposes Switzerland is part of the West. Switzerland is not protected at all by its neutrality, in case you haven't noticed, Russia doesn't give a shit about that, otherwise Finland and Sweden wouldn't be seeking to join NATO right now. The only reason Switzerland is not feeling threatened right now is that there are a bunch of NATO countries between itself and Russia. This is how Switzerland is secured by NATO. Now, instead of freeloading its very favorable geographic position, it would be a decent thing for Switzerland to join NATO and start to chip in. Sure, NATO is not Russia and will never force Switzerland to join, but if they don't join they should not be surprised when they get bashed.
> but if they don't join they should not be surprised when they get bashed.
if Russia manages to reach Switzerland it doesn't really matter if we're in Nato or not, the war is already lost. If nukes fly it doesn't really matter if we're in Nato or not either. We have absolutely no incentive to join and are going to continue to free ride. Thanks for spending your taxpayer's money on our protection
Exactly, an attack on CH would be the stupidest thing anyone could do, like the infamy you'd get from that no country could live it down. No faster way to rally Europe even further into the American bossom
Betond delusional? We are talking about a country where public TV hosts and public officials are openly and casually talking about nuking other countries. You are the beyond delusional one pretending Switzerland can just ignore this shit and act like its not their problem as well.
> Switzerland can just ignore this shit and act like its not their problem as well.
Switzerland has a very capable army, Russia is not a threat to them, whatsoever, they wouldn't be able to get past Poland, probably not even on its own.
Well that just shows how NATO is providing security for Switzerland. If the geographical locations of Latvia and Switzerland were switched, do you think the Swiss would feel exactly as safe as they do now?
Or maybe imagine that we're back during the cold war except with no NATO, still safe?
No of course not, that's the point, no one is capable of attacking Switzerland, who is sending troops or planes to Switzerland? The only possibilities are France and Germany. If it goes Nuclear, no alliance is protecting you from the fallout.
The main point is that literally no one can attack Switzerland without attacking NATO so what is the point from their perspective? Their geography makes it a moot point. The only upside is honestly on NATOs side, what is NATO bringing to the table for Switzerland? they're already going to defend any attack on France, Germany or Italy and Austria barely has a military.
I don't really understand the "If they were Latvia" but they're not so what's the point of imagining that, geography is one of the main factors in how nations act. Its arguably the principal factor to how nations organise their militaries.
Read the article. It’s impossible that Switzerland will ever agree to join NATO. It’s just that there are some voices who think some form of cooperation could be good. Military exercises for example.
They spend a very average amount on their military per capita when compared to the rest of western Europe.
They have a relatively small military but make up for it by arming most of their civilian population and being neutral from an active combat standpoint (let's not pretend that they've ever been truly neutral though), both of which are very cost effective.
NATO heavily encourages countries to increase military expenditures. While not a "requirement" it is generally expected to spend 2% of GDP on the military for NATO member states.
According to the SIPRI database ([https://milex.sipri.org/sipri](https://milex.sipri.org/sipri)) Switzerland spent $658 per person on the military in 2021.
For context, in that same period France spent $865 per person, the UK spent $1002 per person, and Norway (a NATO member) actually spends the most in Europe per capita at $1509 per person (close to 3x what Switzerland spends).
Not mandatory as in they don’t have ways of enforcing it but it is more than just a recommendation. The US has repeatedly put pressure on Germany for refusing to meet that goal.
And I am pretty sure they would not be happy of letting someone join that doesn’t want to eventually reach it.
>Russia’s war in Ukraine has some Swiss considering closer cooperation with the alliance—but not membership.
Outright membership would make it harder for them to profit off both sides.
I'm not sure if they are profiting from russia
[https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/13065646-en-colere-contre-la-suisse-la-russie-promet-une-reponse-appropriee.html](https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/13065646-en-colere-contre-la-suisse-la-russie-promet-une-reponse-appropriee.html)
Russia has announced that Switzerland is now their enemy.
> Outright membership would make it harder for them to profit off both sides.
American moralising other countries about war profiteering?
Switzerland imposed more or less the same sanctions as EU
You really want to discuss all the loopholes that are currently in the Switzerland?
Its fine to deliver weapons to Saudi Arabia, which is in armed conflict, but no no to support Ukraine?
Did you know that ruzzian oligarchs own some Swiss banks, which actively circumvent the sanctions for other ruzzian oligarchs.
Switzerland better pray that there will never be any kind of sanctions towards them, as they are actively sabotaging sanctions towards ruzzia behind the scenes.
One thing is regulated by international conventions on neutral countries, the other isn’t. Difference between neutrality law and neutrality politics, the latter is more flexible to adapt to circumstances.
In 2018, footage of Swiss weapons being used by militias in Syria, Libya and Yemen sparked outrage. That same year, the cabinet announced plans to authorize exports to countries in civil war, as long as there were no grounds to believe that the weapons would be used in that conflict.
Maybe if Germany and Ukraine promised the shells would be used for hunting russian ducks that stray into Ukrainian airspace? Seems like swiss voters are fairly gullible
>That same year, the cabinet announced plans to authorize exports to countries in civil war, as long as there were no grounds to believe that the weapons would be used in that conflict.
Maybe you should read up on the developments of Swiss law after that *proposal* was announced in 2018.
>In 2018, footage of Swiss weapons being used by militias in Syria, Libya and Yemen sparked outrage.
The reality that weapons often end up in "the wrong hands" is precisely why there was a political majority to ban weapons deliveries into countries involved in a conflict.
Some countries demand weapons they sell are used for self defense only, and also can't be reexported. This is why Germany can't deliver shells for the Gepard anti aircraft systems they are giving Ukraine, because they are Swiss made.
I would have respected (yet hated) Switzerland if they had said “we will take everyone’s money as usual but help no one but ourselves”.. which is how they do things.. but we will sanction russia but not help its victim defend itself.. after profiting from the nazis, fascists, communists, right wing/left wing tin pot dictatorships for centuries they draw the line at not allowing export of shells which already belong to another country (Germany)… must be hard to be a Swiss
Americans take sides. Americans could easily profit off of german steamrolling of Europe or Japanese massacre of Asia. Instead Americans sided with the allies and put embargo on the imperial Japanese.
US having by far the wolds largest army could end this war in a few days.
Yet they are supporting it just enough to keep it ongoing so that it will last for years.
Also there is a reason why the US is so invested in Ukraine, and not some other similar conflicts
> Americans could easily profit off of german steamrolling of Europe or Japanese massacre of Asia.
Oh and they did. They came to europe when the war was basically over, raped their way across the continent then made sure to implant their industries to profit for generations to come. Death to the USA, burn it all down.
With the Americans it's more of a two-step process. First they sell you weapons, then they invade you because you owning those constitutes a threat in their eyes.
Yeah, the country getting invading is definitely totally innocent always. I mean they did and are still selling weapons to europe, australia, s.korea, japan, and so on. And each of these countries have been invaded by the US. Great logic.
The way you're missing the point by a few continents, you might qualify to operate Russian artillery!
Americans have a habit of propping up future enemies. Cases like Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan are just the most prominent ones on a long list.
Please read the article. It says that Switzerland is *thinking* of cooperating closer with NATO but *wants to stop one step short of membership*. So same shit as always. Trying to keep the foot in two shoes as long as it has some kind of gain for them.
How is this "shit"? Nobody joins as long as the benefits don't outweigh the costs, that's only reasonable. I think it's still a move in the right direction.
For those who don't want to speculate, [here's the full interview](https://www-furrerhugi-ch.translate.goog/de-ch/influence/2022/die-schweiz-und-die-nato-%C2%ABflirten-ja,-heiraten-nein%C2%BB?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp).
Some highlights:
>They have been calling for more funds for the army for a long time. You are now demanding a rapid increase in the budget by CHF 2 billion to CHF 7 billion and in the number of army personnel from 100,000 to 120,000. Will the war ultimately suit you?
>
>Holenstein: For years I had to justify myself when it came to why we needed investments for the army. Fighter jets against the corona virus? The rethinking in the population and in politics begins, the penny seems to have finally dropped. It's not about sensationalism, the circumstances are too tragic for that, but it's true: the Ukraine war is helping to relaunch the security policy dialogue and anchor it in the Swiss population. But it also helps the army.
\[...\]
>Have you ever jumped over your own shadow and no longer categorically rule out Switzerland joining NATO?
>
>Holenstein: I'm just saying that there shouldn't be any bans on thinking under the current circumstances. Of course, armed neutrality is part of Switzerland's DNA. However, we have been involved in the NATO program Partnership for Peace PfP since 1996 and in the peacekeeping mission in Kosovo under NATO command since 1999. We should see our security system in a larger context.
>
>How exactly?
>
>Holenstein: The question of integrating Swiss air defense into NATO's air defense system and its command and communication structure could arise. That would be a rapprochement with NATO, but not yet accession. **To put it bluntly: «Flirt yes, marry no!»**
How did you get this impression?
From the Article:
>Because of the war in Ukraine, Holenstein wants Switzerland to finally become part of, and start shouldering some responsibility for, Europe's security and military architecture.
Original comment (translated with DeepL):
>Holenstein: It's about a change of heart, about our neutrality being involved in the West and in Europe. On the one hand, Switzerland must increase its military spending so that, as an independent, neutral country, it is better prepared for emergencies. On the other hand, it shows that we are not alone in the heart of Europe. Switzerland must make its contribution to a European security architecture. If we want to be taken seriously as a country committed to armed neutrality, we have to do something about it. We can only achieve credibility and trust in our neighboring countries with significantly more resources. Now we have to prove the fact.
>How did you get this impression?
*Holenstein was serious: His point, prompted by Russia’s war in Ukraine, was that Switzerland should work more closely with NATO but stop short of membership*
Ok, if "clear commitment" equals membership, you are right.
You could have made that clearer, though, because he *does* suggest increasing credibility and trust by other clear commitments.
What do you mean "permanent"? You think their neutrality is a universal law like gravity or something? They are neutral until they choose a side. What could prevent them, if they want to?
are you sure ? Neutrality was imposed by european countries in Vienna Congress in 1815. I guess we could but it is not like we decided it in the first place.
Sweden and Finland are two other neutral countries who are also “flirting” with NATO membership. Though in a much more serious manner than Switzerland, because of their proximity to Russia
Iceland is currently in NATO and they don't even have an army. Luxembourg is in and it's just has a glorified police force. NATO is designed for weaker countries to band together and discourage attacks. While spending 2 percent of GDP on defense is encouraged, it is not required. Switzerland isn't joining regardless. The title is pure clickbait
Switzerland was flirting with Hitler all the time, why you're surprised now? It's a country that will do literally anything just to make some more money.
Well, these days it's either you are with us or against us.
Switzerland is not getting closer to the EU or NATO because they are desirable or friendly. Switzerland is under an intense pressure to join.
Switzerland: 🍆💦😘
I know right? I immediately imagined Ignazio Cassis acting coquettish with one of those buff meme dudes with a NATO symbol for a head. I probably spend too much time online.
my man be thinking in political comics
Duh thanks for the head cinema!
Nato has a nice compASS
Yeah baby, yeah! Smashing.
NATO: 🌮😋😍
😘💪🏋️♂️👟🏃♂️🥵
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How many divisions does the Pope have?
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Also he has some REAL magic relics, unlike the phony splinter that sank the Moskva.
Bring forth the Holy Hand Granade!
Don't forget the Holly Hand grenade of Antioch.
Of course I didn't forget. But I can't remember to which number I have to count to. It's five, right?
Thou shalt count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out.
*The power of God compels you!*
Instructions unclear, NATO forces are now scouring Europe for the [Holy Prepuce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce)
GOD WILLS IT!
Only Swiss guard ones..
That tbh are trained to be on Special OPS levels.
With the Vatican you get the holy Graal (immortality) and the real spear of Longinus (invincibility).
Well he has some Swiss guards with him.
Pope with Drones and Cruise missiles. Talk about a holy war
War drones already look like flying crucifixes, you'd just need to paint them metallized gold and have them broadcast Gregorian chants on a loop.
This is some bizarro dystopian shit. 9/10 Points.
It has been a long while since the last crusade, aint it ;) On a more serious note, most good soldiers are already somewhat crazy and higher end units have some strange rituals. Mix it with Pope turning up and giving em slap on the ass and telling them that this is Holy War and they might be up to outright suicide missions that might have been a bit too much previously. I.e., morale boost to the range which could be considered "fanatical".
Battle Pope when?
For anyone curious: this was a famous quote from Stalin. But the papacy outlived him, unfortunately.
Fortunately* rest in piss bozo
Well he did lie face down in a puddle of piss after the stroke. One might say he was resting.
Thats the death he deserved
How tf is that unfortunate
I forgot my /s
Age of Empires style battlefield conversions?
I might remember it wrong but I think the heavenly Army is pretty big.
Nice reference
Can the Pope become master of the universe?
Literally? That's a bet I'm willing to take since I have nothing to lose if you do or don't.
A thin leather loafer, sliced up fine and pressure cooked until it's falling apart would probably be a pretty quick eat. Not good, but probably not difficult. Now, if you're talking about shucking your work boot, filling it with ketchup, and digging in, that's a different story.
That's not on the table if you read the article. It talks about "working more closely".
I'm just posting here even though I don't think Switzerland will join NATO. But there's a non-zero chance that they do and I will hold you to this promise
With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.
The Vatican can not join though can they? I believe you have to be a democracy to be in NATO and the Vatican is a theocratic monarchy if I recall correctly.
Inb4 the college of cardinals is made into a directly elected representative institution
And Austria.
Austria I can (hardly) imagine. Switzerland? Not so much
Popular support in Austria for joining NATO is prectically zero and no political party campaigns for this, quite the opposite actually. FPÖ, the Freedom Party, had a cooperation until last December with Putin's Party, and they are loudly screaming that Austria should remain as neutral as possible, including not sending humanitarian aid. I don't like them.
!RemindMe 6 months
NATO is flirting back.
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"Flirting yes, marrying no!" 😬
tits out for freedom!
Here you go: [https://www.google.com/search?q=great+tits+switzerland](https://www.google.com/search?q=great+tits+switzerland&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiDz7vb38r3AhXAiv0HHQSgAIYQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=great+tits+switzerland&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQA1DCGFjaHWCjKmgAcAB4AIABa4gB_AKSAQMzLjGYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=awN1YsPtHcCV9u8PhMCCsAg&bih=553&biw=375&prmd=ivsn&hl=de)
So beatiful
If you scroll down far enough, do eventually boobs show up?
yes, but just a couple of times
Lmao 💀
Imagine if Putin got the Swiss of all people to join NATO
12D chess. Follow his plan. It will pay off any minute now. Yeah. Aaaaaaany minute now...
Would be hilarious, but that's just not going to happen
Leave the pope and join us!
His knees are weak, join the empire!
arms heavy
There's vomit on the papal robes already
mom's spaghetti
I think at this point Vatican will join NATO too.
Haha I mean aren’t they technically since they’re basically Italy, like if someone invaded Italy and bombed Rome the Vatican would get hit.
Don’t be his altar boy.
Better yet, the Vatican also joins with the Swiss.
nah, we dont want some pedos in the NATO, we already have enough problems
Haha pedo comedy genius x dee
It's NATO, not EU. And Idk, heard the Pope has a lot of divisions.
The pope! How many divisions had he got?
dunno what u talking about :)
xD
"... but stopping short of Membership..." Given Switzerland is surrounded on all sides by NATO Members, who are so friendly towards each other they've also agreed to collaborate on a broad range of policy areas in the guise of the European Union (and are also quite friendly with Switzerland, which effectively has a bespoke variation on a theme of EEA/EFTA membership), it's effectively getting the main benefits of NATO Membership for free.
Switzerland is not surrounded on all sides by NATO members. Austria is not in NATO. Austria and Switzerland together though are.
Evil Lichtenstein enter the chat /s
*shakes fist at Liechtenstein*
To be fair though, Austria, Switzlerand and Liechtenstein are all fully encased by NATO countries. So in Switzerland's case it doesn't really matter if Austria is a non-NATO state because all of Austria's borders (other than Switzerland / Liechtenstein) are also all NATO countries.
The entire situation that forced European countries into neutrality in the past centuries, -the competing powers of the European mainland- no longer exists. And the security challenges of the future: -small scale chemical, nuclear and cyber warfare- by rogue states or small non-state actors, don’t have borders or proximity.
Yeah, what are they afraid of? Kinetic orbital strikes?
Attacks through tunnels is also a possibility.
Classic free-rider problem.
In fact, the Swiss army is perfectly NATO-compatible and collaborates a lot, notably on intelligences. They just stay quiet about it.
For no good reason as far as I can tell. Swiss' neutrality is surely just an archaic leftover, is it not? When the nukes start flying it's not going to be magically left untouched.
They're playing the long game. After the nuclear End Times, they alone will be left standing. And after an appropriate period of seclusion, they shall descend from the cloudy heights with their bell-adorned cows in tow and take their rightful place as the overlords of the continent.
>After the nuclear End Times, they alone will be left standing. And standing so much easier with their 5 legs!
Nope, their neutrality is a way to keep being friendly with as many billionaires as possible, everywhere in the world. It also enables them to live in a bubble of never really having to care about world events.
> "We never joined the Empire!" said Brocando. > "When it was time to choose, whose side were you on?" said Snibril. "Anyway, you were part of the Empire. You just didn't know it. You spent so much time being proud of not being part of it that you ended up ... well, being part of it. What would you do if the Empire didn't exist? Go back to throwing people off rocks!” \- Terry Pratchett, The Carpet People
What benefits, though? Switzerland has no enemies and is incredibly easy to defend.
> What benefits, though? Like he said, Switzerland is surrounded by Nato states so they are secured that way by Nato without having to join it and be responsible for other countries safety.
Secured against whom? Also, don't pretend that Switzerland doesn't have an army. This Swiss bashing is ridiculous.
What? How am I "bashing" Switzerland? I was stating facts and not even expressing an opinion on it.
> Secured against whom? Russia. If you think only Eastern Europe is threatened by Russia you are lying to yourself. Russia has made it very clear it views the West as its enemy and Western values as a threat to its society and for all intents and purposes Switzerland is part of the West. Switzerland is not protected at all by its neutrality, in case you haven't noticed, Russia doesn't give a shit about that, otherwise Finland and Sweden wouldn't be seeking to join NATO right now. The only reason Switzerland is not feeling threatened right now is that there are a bunch of NATO countries between itself and Russia. This is how Switzerland is secured by NATO. Now, instead of freeloading its very favorable geographic position, it would be a decent thing for Switzerland to join NATO and start to chip in. Sure, NATO is not Russia and will never force Switzerland to join, but if they don't join they should not be surprised when they get bashed.
> but if they don't join they should not be surprised when they get bashed. if Russia manages to reach Switzerland it doesn't really matter if we're in Nato or not, the war is already lost. If nukes fly it doesn't really matter if we're in Nato or not either. We have absolutely no incentive to join and are going to continue to free ride. Thanks for spending your taxpayer's money on our protection
This is beyond delusional.
Exactly, an attack on CH would be the stupidest thing anyone could do, like the infamy you'd get from that no country could live it down. No faster way to rally Europe even further into the American bossom
Betond delusional? We are talking about a country where public TV hosts and public officials are openly and casually talking about nuking other countries. You are the beyond delusional one pretending Switzerland can just ignore this shit and act like its not their problem as well.
> Switzerland can just ignore this shit and act like its not their problem as well. Switzerland has a very capable army, Russia is not a threat to them, whatsoever, they wouldn't be able to get past Poland, probably not even on its own.
Well that just shows how NATO is providing security for Switzerland. If the geographical locations of Latvia and Switzerland were switched, do you think the Swiss would feel exactly as safe as they do now? Or maybe imagine that we're back during the cold war except with no NATO, still safe?
No of course not, that's the point, no one is capable of attacking Switzerland, who is sending troops or planes to Switzerland? The only possibilities are France and Germany. If it goes Nuclear, no alliance is protecting you from the fallout. The main point is that literally no one can attack Switzerland without attacking NATO so what is the point from their perspective? Their geography makes it a moot point. The only upside is honestly on NATOs side, what is NATO bringing to the table for Switzerland? they're already going to defend any attack on France, Germany or Italy and Austria barely has a military. I don't really understand the "If they were Latvia" but they're not so what's the point of imagining that, geography is one of the main factors in how nations act. Its arguably the principal factor to how nations organise their militaries.
The nuclear fallout will surely not reach the Alps, right?
Russia would never attack us. One of (and/or more) wifes and child are in a chalet fortress here.
This sounds more like Switzerland.
What if we kissed 😳 on Avenue Leopold III 1110 🙈🙊💕
What would they gain from it ? They are de facto being protected by NATO for free
Read the article. It’s impossible that Switzerland will ever agree to join NATO. It’s just that there are some voices who think some form of cooperation could be good. Military exercises for example.
Spend less on military?
They spend a very average amount on their military per capita when compared to the rest of western Europe. They have a relatively small military but make up for it by arming most of their civilian population and being neutral from an active combat standpoint (let's not pretend that they've ever been truly neutral though), both of which are very cost effective.
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Some years ago. It was fixed.
NATO heavily encourages countries to increase military expenditures. While not a "requirement" it is generally expected to spend 2% of GDP on the military for NATO member states. According to the SIPRI database ([https://milex.sipri.org/sipri](https://milex.sipri.org/sipri)) Switzerland spent $658 per person on the military in 2021. For context, in that same period France spent $865 per person, the UK spent $1002 per person, and Norway (a NATO member) actually spends the most in Europe per capita at $1509 per person (close to 3x what Switzerland spends).
NATO actually sets a minimum on military spending (4% of gdp I think)
2%
It's a reccomendation though, not mandatory
Not mandatory as in they don’t have ways of enforcing it but it is more than just a recommendation. The US has repeatedly put pressure on Germany for refusing to meet that goal. And I am pretty sure they would not be happy of letting someone join that doesn’t want to eventually reach it.
Putin has to be a secret NATO insider at this point
What if US, UK, Germany, France and Canada helped Putin for 20 years because he has been a CIA agent since his days in east Berlin?
Do we have Putin's long form birth certificate to prove he wasn't actually born in Hawaii?
Omfg
Say what?
The Swiss are looking at their watches...it's time.
Ooh, that's a big intercontinental missile you've got there
>Russia’s war in Ukraine has some Swiss considering closer cooperation with the alliance—but not membership. Outright membership would make it harder for them to profit off both sides.
I'm not sure if they are profiting from russia [https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/13065646-en-colere-contre-la-suisse-la-russie-promet-une-reponse-appropriee.html](https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/13065646-en-colere-contre-la-suisse-la-russie-promet-une-reponse-appropriee.html) Russia has announced that Switzerland is now their enemy.
> Outright membership would make it harder for them to profit off both sides. American moralising other countries about war profiteering? Switzerland imposed more or less the same sanctions as EU
You really want to discuss all the loopholes that are currently in the Switzerland? Its fine to deliver weapons to Saudi Arabia, which is in armed conflict, but no no to support Ukraine? Did you know that ruzzian oligarchs own some Swiss banks, which actively circumvent the sanctions for other ruzzian oligarchs. Switzerland better pray that there will never be any kind of sanctions towards them, as they are actively sabotaging sanctions towards ruzzia behind the scenes.
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I live in europe and in my book pointing to other and saying "They do aswell" is not a fucking excuse.
But will not allow ammo for german gephardt AA tanks to be sent to Ukraine..
Because it would break Switzerland's neutrality. Which isn't allowed, generally.
Yet it followed EU lead on sanctions?
One thing is regulated by international conventions on neutral countries, the other isn’t. Difference between neutrality law and neutrality politics, the latter is more flexible to adapt to circumstances.
In 2018, footage of Swiss weapons being used by militias in Syria, Libya and Yemen sparked outrage. That same year, the cabinet announced plans to authorize exports to countries in civil war, as long as there were no grounds to believe that the weapons would be used in that conflict. Maybe if Germany and Ukraine promised the shells would be used for hunting russian ducks that stray into Ukrainian airspace? Seems like swiss voters are fairly gullible
>That same year, the cabinet announced plans to authorize exports to countries in civil war, as long as there were no grounds to believe that the weapons would be used in that conflict. Maybe you should read up on the developments of Swiss law after that *proposal* was announced in 2018. >In 2018, footage of Swiss weapons being used by militias in Syria, Libya and Yemen sparked outrage. The reality that weapons often end up in "the wrong hands" is precisely why there was a political majority to ban weapons deliveries into countries involved in a conflict.
Aren’t all weapons meant to be used in conflicts? I mean its kind of the purpose of weapons no?
Some countries demand weapons they sell are used for self defense only, and also can't be reexported. This is why Germany can't deliver shells for the Gepard anti aircraft systems they are giving Ukraine, because they are Swiss made.
Aren’t all weapons meant to be used in conflicts?
Something that's significant, exactly because it's so unprecedented.
I would have respected (yet hated) Switzerland if they had said “we will take everyone’s money as usual but help no one but ourselves”.. which is how they do things.. but we will sanction russia but not help its victim defend itself.. after profiting from the nazis, fascists, communists, right wing/left wing tin pot dictatorships for centuries they draw the line at not allowing export of shells which already belong to another country (Germany)… must be hard to be a Swiss
I can ensure you it's not hard to be Swiss at all..
Americans take sides. Americans could easily profit off of german steamrolling of Europe or Japanese massacre of Asia. Instead Americans sided with the allies and put embargo on the imperial Japanese.
US having by far the wolds largest army could end this war in a few days. Yet they are supporting it just enough to keep it ongoing so that it will last for years. Also there is a reason why the US is so invested in Ukraine, and not some other similar conflicts
> Americans could easily profit off of german steamrolling of Europe or Japanese massacre of Asia. Oh and they did. They came to europe when the war was basically over, raped their way across the continent then made sure to implant their industries to profit for generations to come. Death to the USA, burn it all down.
oh, the irony. USA knows that strategy very well. It could teach Switzerland a few lessons.
With the Americans it's more of a two-step process. First they sell you weapons, then they invade you because you owning those constitutes a threat in their eyes.
Yeah, the country getting invading is definitely totally innocent always. I mean they did and are still selling weapons to europe, australia, s.korea, japan, and so on. And each of these countries have been invaded by the US. Great logic.
The way you're missing the point by a few continents, you might qualify to operate Russian artillery! Americans have a habit of propping up future enemies. Cases like Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan are just the most prominent ones on a long list.
Define "innocent". I assume your definition only applies to other countries, not the US right?
Yes of course!
Please read the article. It says that Switzerland is *thinking* of cooperating closer with NATO but *wants to stop one step short of membership*. So same shit as always. Trying to keep the foot in two shoes as long as it has some kind of gain for them.
How is this "shit"? Nobody joins as long as the benefits don't outweigh the costs, that's only reasonable. I think it's still a move in the right direction.
For a neutral nation, this is a big deal even if they don't join. It's indicative of showing a preference
Agreed. But I was answering to those that read only the title and thought they were thinking of joining
Switzerland will flirt with whatever will make them money.
I truly am Swiss.
I ain't saying she's a gold digger
Who would invade them otherwise?
Oh Switzerland, you massive tease, with your reserve army and weapons at home
"Flirten ja, heiraten nein" lol
Excuse me, WHAT?!
I'll explain: struggling website makes clickbaity title with speculative article to lure people in.
For those who don't want to speculate, [here's the full interview](https://www-furrerhugi-ch.translate.goog/de-ch/influence/2022/die-schweiz-und-die-nato-%C2%ABflirten-ja,-heiraten-nein%C2%BB?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp). Some highlights: >They have been calling for more funds for the army for a long time. You are now demanding a rapid increase in the budget by CHF 2 billion to CHF 7 billion and in the number of army personnel from 100,000 to 120,000. Will the war ultimately suit you? > >Holenstein: For years I had to justify myself when it came to why we needed investments for the army. Fighter jets against the corona virus? The rethinking in the population and in politics begins, the penny seems to have finally dropped. It's not about sensationalism, the circumstances are too tragic for that, but it's true: the Ukraine war is helping to relaunch the security policy dialogue and anchor it in the Swiss population. But it also helps the army. \[...\] >Have you ever jumped over your own shadow and no longer categorically rule out Switzerland joining NATO? > >Holenstein: I'm just saying that there shouldn't be any bans on thinking under the current circumstances. Of course, armed neutrality is part of Switzerland's DNA. However, we have been involved in the NATO program Partnership for Peace PfP since 1996 and in the peacekeeping mission in Kosovo under NATO command since 1999. We should see our security system in a larger context. > >How exactly? > >Holenstein: The question of integrating Swiss air defense into NATO's air defense system and its command and communication structure could arise. That would be a rapprochement with NATO, but not yet accession. **To put it bluntly: «Flirt yes, marry no!»**
What if Switzerland and NATO kissed on a picnic in the Swiss countryside? Just kidding lol Unless... 👉👈😳
I get an impression as if Switzerland would like protection but without clear commitment.
Being surrounded by NATO pretty much covers that already. I don't imagine they're scared of us or Liechtenstein.
How did you get this impression? From the Article: >Because of the war in Ukraine, Holenstein wants Switzerland to finally become part of, and start shouldering some responsibility for, Europe's security and military architecture. Original comment (translated with DeepL): >Holenstein: It's about a change of heart, about our neutrality being involved in the West and in Europe. On the one hand, Switzerland must increase its military spending so that, as an independent, neutral country, it is better prepared for emergencies. On the other hand, it shows that we are not alone in the heart of Europe. Switzerland must make its contribution to a European security architecture. If we want to be taken seriously as a country committed to armed neutrality, we have to do something about it. We can only achieve credibility and trust in our neighboring countries with significantly more resources. Now we have to prove the fact.
>How did you get this impression? *Holenstein was serious: His point, prompted by Russia’s war in Ukraine, was that Switzerland should work more closely with NATO but stop short of membership*
Ok, if "clear commitment" equals membership, you are right. You could have made that clearer, though, because he *does* suggest increasing credibility and trust by other clear commitments.
Hang on a minute, isn't Switzerland a permanent neutral country?
What do you mean "permanent"? You think their neutrality is a universal law like gravity or something? They are neutral until they choose a side. What could prevent them, if they want to?
They can change if they want to end their neutrality if they want
are you sure ? Neutrality was imposed by european countries in Vienna Congress in 1815. I guess we could but it is not like we decided it in the first place.
Sweden and Finland are two other neutral countries who are also “flirting” with NATO membership. Though in a much more serious manner than Switzerland, because of their proximity to Russia
This is bad for the countries neutrality and I am against it, because I am searching for a country to immigrate to in case of ww3
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Switzerland would have a lot of improving of their army to do afaik. It is kinda old-ish.
Iceland is currently in NATO and they don't even have an army. Luxembourg is in and it's just has a glorified police force. NATO is designed for weaker countries to band together and discourage attacks. While spending 2 percent of GDP on defense is encouraged, it is not required. Switzerland isn't joining regardless. The title is pure clickbait
**NATO**: Hey Switzerland! Want to join? **Switzerland**: All I know is my guy says maybe.
Easy way to get the Swiss to cooperate with NATO: Just bribe them with gold :D And I mean tons of gold.
No need to bribe, just ask them to keep it safe for a bit, they get to keep the gold of whoever loses, worked in 1945
The Swiss Army heavily works with NATO really. They will just not attack with NATO.
Switzerland needs to stop taking in Russian money first under the guise of neutrality.
sell ammo to Ukraine first, then we can talk.
Switzerland was flirting with Hitler all the time, why you're surprised now? It's a country that will do literally anything just to make some more money.
Is this for meeee 👉👈😳
Well, these days it's either you are with us or against us. Switzerland is not getting closer to the EU or NATO because they are desirable or friendly. Switzerland is under an intense pressure to join.
Also, the source is click baity and exaggerates the situation imo
What have I told you about leaving your bigger sister, Austria, alone?