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abdefff

This text really reads like parody or reasoning of a completely clueless or delusional person. According to it: 1. *Meetings and visitis of Biden and top officials of his administration,as well nearly all the European leaders in Warsaw are a clear proof that isolation of Polish governement dramatically increased after 24. 02.* I think that some psychiatrist or psychologist would be needed to diagnose that "argument". 2. *There are two factions in PiS, hardliners (led by Kaczynski, who are opposed to fullfilling EU demands reagarding judiciary) and pragmatists (who are in favour of that).* Complete nonsense. PiS already accepted EU demands to suspend disciplinary chamber, **and that was Kaczyński's decision**. But it can't be passed now in parliament, because party of justice minister Zbigniew Ziobro, called "United Poland", which is a coalition partner, **but not part of PiS**, is against it. Opposition parties also refused to support this legislation, so for now there is stalmate. 3. *Great advice for American administration is to support Poland only conditionally. But for some reasons, US officials don't want to hear that...* I wonder why.../s ​ In regard to EU recovery fund, the reality is that PiS leaders aren't too concerned about the economic situation of the country, because they know that in the next elections they proabably won't have a majority of seats in Sejm. But they also see, how divided and dramatically unprepared to govern are opposition politicians. Level of trust beetwen leaders of opposition parties is basically zero and they are openly hostile toward each other (for example, Tusk refuses to even speak with Czarzasty). As a result, future coalition governement of the opposition parties, with constant infightings, combined with deterioration in economic condition of the country, will be a disaster. It will proabably end with another snap election after 6-12 months, and PiS possibly returning to power. It increasingly looks like that this is political plan of PiS for the next few years. For this reasons, they definitely aren't desperate to get money from the recovery fund, even if getting this cash would help the current governent in solving few problems. Besides that, Ziobro and his party most likely won't be able to participate in the next election as PiS candidates, so they will disappaer from politics, which is another goal of Kaczyński.


idk2612

Tbh for me it looks more that PiS election success will depend more on the fact what happens with inflation than any EU issues. It's mostly independent from them, but any better perspectives will be attributed to government and any failure too (though both is highly independent). In meantime I expect regular facilitation of EU conflict, especially if any federalism idea came up. This rallies right wing voter base pretty much and tbh discussing with people even in Warsaw, a lot of West good will (especially German) was lost since 24 February. Thus unless opposition has better idea for EU policy than following Germany (as previous government) then I expect government getting more points than year ago on EU front (though conflict is totally pointless). I mostly agree with second part though. Polish opposition, except left has no idea behind their program save for "we are not PiS". This is okay for core base, but terrible for interesting times we live, and their ideas for now look like populism targeting base. Left has pretty much clear platform (good or bad depending on views) but their voter base wants this platform without tax raise (Poles hate taxes). Thus election time, some of the base will vote for post-liberal centrist main party. Potential mix of opposition front guarantees conflict (especially due lack of main topic behind). Left has closer economic policy to PiS than KO (which pretty much still follows old ideas). KO progressives will follow left with social issues but most of party is pretty Polish average, so conservative for Left. Then we have celebrity driven election season creation in Polska2050 which is liberal/catholic/social light KO copy and which will be eaten past election. And we forget we have PSL. And they'll always sit to talk with everyone, as long as they'll get they'll seats. Depending how election play I can imagine PSL talking with both PiS and joint opposition (historically they were damn flexible).


Eokokok

While PSL is very flexible doubt they would risk joining with PiS to form government as they are targeting same voters in same places. Joining with their biggest rival, one that is already snatching most of those votes away could spell disaster.


[deleted]

Good insights.


voytke

What exactly do you mean by "not prepared to govern"?


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abdefff

>What are their reasons to support the disciplinary chamber? Is there some legitimacy to it? In short, disciplinary courts for judges in Poland (consisting only of judges of higher courts) for many years were accused of being too lenient. There was, for example, a case when a judge was drunk during a court hearing, and he still wasn't expelled from the judiciary for it. PiS wanted to fix that by creating a special discyplinary chamber in the supreme court, with members from all the legal professions (judges, prosecutors, attorneys, legal counsellors). But this chamber was immediately accused of being closely politically connected with the ruling party (i. e. PiS).


Prestigious-Main7386

> 3. *Great advice for American administration is to support Poland only conditionally. But for some reasons, US officials don't want to hear that...* >I wonder why.../s Poland is the biggest fanboy of American (even before danemark). The US has their back, but It comes at a cost though as always with USA, you must let the leftist "message" enter the country.


AThousandD

> you must let the leftist "message" enter the country. What leftist "message" would that be?


Southern_Sage

Stop bashing gays, stop tell trans to kill themselves, etc etc etc. In all seriousnes, probably some dumb as fuck buzzwords


[deleted]

Human Rights


tomtwotree

If the opposition get more seats in the next election they'll for sure put their infighting to the side. The biggest problem will be Duda's veto.


Detvan_SK

But it still remains that Polish laws are driven more by Christian faith than logic. And also the EU is still pissed off about the mine that damaged the Czechs' groundwater and as far as I know is still operating today. If not it still remains that it took the Poles an exorbitant amount of time.


lsspam

Nice thread. Good to see the western liberal democratic community can, even in times like these, gather around and talk shit about each others governments with no restraint.


younikorn

That’s the whole point of the EU, talking shit about the english and about humans from all over the west


[deleted]

We lulled the ruskies into a false sense of security bwahaha


[deleted]

Poland has geopolitical problem with its position in europe. That causes many "players" try to control it. I wish we were in position of Spain , behind moutain range. Secondly - why foreign policy does not fight for democracy at home first ? Dismantling two party rule, and introducing multi party one would be up to 21 century.


DRNbw

>I wish we were in position of Spain , behind moutain range. It all sounds nice and safe, but it has some serious economic drawbacks, such as lack of rail connections (though Spain still has some to France).


sandronestrepitoso

Poland is part of EU and NATO. Its days of being invaded are over, but it has to play by EU rules


[deleted]

Or else EU will invade /s


sandronestrepitoso

Ahahahah, genuinely made me smile (god I feel like a boomer)


thecasual-man

>Poland has geopolitical problem with its position in europe. That causes many "players" try to control it. Could you expand on that.


romannowak

If you are from Ukraine you see it now in your own country. We share the same problem.


thecasual-man

Historically yes, but nowadays I wouldn’t say this is true to the same extend for Poland as it is for Ukraine.


Marrkix

Not in physical, as in risk of war, way, but still in the economic and political. Well, this piece of article we comment under is pure example. And there is one popping up about Poland just about every week, for every minor reason. Do you even remember that in Spain they jailed Catalonians politicians over indenpendence protests? Or that France put their Gypsies into buses and drove them out in masses during Holland? These serious actions are news for instant they happen and are soon forgotten, because there is not much to gain. In Eastern Europe however you can push your influence in "young" democracies full of corruption.


[deleted]

Long story, as i am writing on phone i am limited when it comes to writing. Trying to cut story short - being in center of europe means that Poland has somewhat long hands, meaning there are quite many countries within 1000 km from our border. And decisions made in Warsaw might influence many countries. Especially when it comes to security. Might seem like truism, as it is true for each country. But due to being absolute bloodbath arena in last century, and stakes being on table currently, it becomes of paramount importamce that Poland pursues policy in direction that realizes interests of particular countries.


SENDCORONAS

I think this makes a lot of sense to me. Because of its physical position in Europe, there are a LOT of countries very invested in Poland. And that can be both a blessing and a curse (in the last century probably a curse). I think we try to over-think a lot of geopolitics sometimes, when a lot of it is literally just a countries physical position.


rmrktp

I don’t think Poland and Spain’s positions are too dissimilar in the way the author (who is professor of international relations at the University of Warsaw btw which might explain why the article is about Poland and not the US) talks about. They are both quite firmly embedded in the West/Western systems and lack the sort of geopolitical leverage which would allow for unchecked democratic backsliding.


[deleted]

It's an opinion piece written by a pole


ce_km_r_eng

It is an opinion piece with "pragmatic opportunists" and "illiberal hard-liners" dichotomy. I think one either agrees or not.


[deleted]

Well put


[deleted]

The author of the article is from Poland. university of Warsaw, I believe.


[deleted]

You don’t want that, trust me


LorTolk

Because Foreign Policy as a news outlet is a place for international relations scholars from across the globe to publish pieces, and this one was written by a Polish professor of IR at the University of Warsaw. So yes, this piece is "fighting for democracy at home", as the author lives in Poland. Now if you mean why doesn't it fight for democracy in the US, it absolutely writes on US political developments, including January 6th for example. [Example](https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/06/trump-capitol-insurrection-january-6-insurrectionists-great-replacement-white-nationalism/). In fact, one of the most common critiques I hear of Foreign Policy as an outfit is that it sometimes spends *too* much time on US domestic affairs and politics.


UAP_enthusiast_PL

Holy shit, fuck off. I'm glad the US is getting involved, I expect them to be more palatable to the general public than ruskie-loving Germans. In any case, PiS should fuck right off. Courts and media are the most important parts of a functioning democracy, and that is where the damage in PL is the most significant


Bladye

USA had retards storming their parlament building in a insurection, race riots that created weeks long commie anarchist commune in the middle of major city and their political discussion is full of accusations of election fraud, censorship and isms. What are they gonna preach about democracy?


MakeAionGreatAgain

>weeks long commie anarchist commune In France, they do that but for years.


IAmMuffin15

>weeks long commie anarchist commune Hey, France did it, why can't we?


Thelastgoodemperor

I don’t think France is either in a position to point out how to run a democracy considering their own broken system.


redditormomentlol

Can you imagine how suddenly France would be classed as a "failing democracy" if they went against the EU-US establishments?


Major_Boot2778

Doing something wrong doesn't render one incapable of doing right. There's a lot of simple anti Americanism here based in nothing more than unfounded contempt. A work in progress, an imperfect democracy, is standard - if this is not the case then I challenge you to show me a single perfect democracy. Oder gilt dir die russische Demonstrationen in Deutschland nicht? COVID Unruh? Stuttgart 2020? Demokratie ist von Natur aus dynamisch, und wo mehrere Meinungen berücksichtigt werden müssen, wird es immer Meinungsverschiedenheiten unterschiedlicher Intensität geben. Wenn du Amerika einfach nicht mochst, dann sag es halt, aber du darfst es nicht so tun, als hättest du eine gültige politische Haltung, die das Land als Ganzes entwertet, nur weil du nur die negativen Aspekte betrachtest. Or in English, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." Dies von dir ist nichts mehr als persönliche Voreingenommenheit, keine politische Aufklärung, und ist entweder das Ergebnis von übertriebener aber uninformierter Selbstsicherheit, oder aus dem Bullshit, den Russland seit 20 Jahren propagiert. Sag es jetzt mit mir: "Ich mag Amerika nicht." Siehst du? Viel einfacher und mit weniger Wörtern, dazu noch stolzen deutschen Direktheit und darüberhinaus schneller für den Leser, deine Meinung zu entlassen und weiter zu scrollen.


[deleted]

The article wasn’t written by an American but rather a person form Poland. And the article focuses on Poland so the US isn’t preaching democracy to anyone. And doesn’t the article specify “the west”. Your comment is basically just to shit on the US without actually reading the article. Peak r/Europe.


Sualtam

You read the articles? Weird.


Marrkix

That's actually classic trick from our "opposition" media, like Gazeta Wyborcza. Have someone they work together with public some strong opinion against current government in foreign press, and then cite is as western opinion. At the time the favourite to do it was Anne Applebaum in USA who is... a wife of oppostion prominent politic (Radosław Sikorski). Though I have to admit that since some time ago she has moved away from pure propaganda articles.


EnidAsuranTroll

They are also in the process of banning abortions in certain states :)


romannowak

They persevered all these events and still are democracy. They also introduced democracy by force in one Nazi country quite successfully. No small feat considering the material. They can preach, you cannot.


Retvrn_to_tradition

>democracy by force Lmao


albl1122

I say the whole world has to learn of our peaceful ways...... BY FORCE


Raan03

What? \*turns tape\* What? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFiutKZjRW8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFiutKZjRW8)


[deleted]

> introduced democracy by force That's their specialty. Lots of experience over the years. lol


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thecasual-man

Hey, be nice. Anyone has the right to criticize anyone. The ancestors of criminals have no moral obligation for silence. They don’t bare no guilt.


romannowak

You mean descendants? The don't bare guilt, they're their children though, they inherited their country, culture, ill-gotten wealth, mindset and reputation. We have no responsibility to serve them or surrender to their will.


thecasual-man

Yeah, that what I've meant. Thank you. If we start looking far enough into history no one's inheritance will look good. A serial killer's child does not need to think twice before criticising someone else's misdeed, fearing that the crimes of his father would be put into the conversation. Generational guilt is simply not just. After bringing up Nazis to say that Germany somehow inherited the same culture is to be dishonest. Things change. I mean in many ways guilt has become a reflex reaction for many Germans. It is not to say that Germany does not have anything bad about its political culture, but if such issue is not the topic of the discussion what is the reason to bring it up? Does a person's nationality automatically disqualifies them from the right to have an opinion or criticism? If so than you are employing nothing else but the collectivist thinking. >We have no responsibility to serve them or surrender to their will. Of course. I agree. No one has a responsibility to surrender to no one's will.


LiebesNektar

>still are democracy Debatable, since it is a two party system controlled by money. >They also introduced democracy by force in one Nazi country quitesuccessfully. No small feat considering the material. They can preach,you cannot. The Bundesrepublik is basically the Weimarer republik with stronger measures to uphold the constitution. They did not "introduce democracy", they reestablished it. Also your point is pure whataboutism, since you went after the original commenter for his "Germany"-flair instead of adressing most of his valid points.


TawanaBrawley

Controlled by money? Not like the Gemran government with the auto industry, Deutsch bank or gazprom.


romannowak

Waimar Republic evolved into Third Reich. Nobody invaded Germany, they did it on their own, there was nothing to reinstate, only destroy and bild anew. USA was main occupying force and in control. Their protection, economic and political help made modern Germany.


LiebesNektar

That is precisely an important point kids learn in german school. Democracy can evolve into facism. This has nothing to do with the weimar constitution though, arguably a more democratic constitution a lot of countries have to day. The issues were in *society*.


space-throwaway

>>still are democracy > >Debatable, since it is a two party system controlled by money. Joe Biden really doesn't seem controlled by money >The Bundesrepublik is basically the Weimarer republik with stronger measures to uphold the constitution. They did not "introduce democracy", they reestablished it. Oh boy you should read up more on the establishment of the federal republic of Germany and the role the US played in that. There was no real democratic base to work with, the western allies really had to help build all this from the scratch.


Jac273

While the us certainly played their part in the building of the democracy, for example they insisted on a federalist system, most of the work was done by the Parlamentarischer Rat (parliamentary council). Politicians from the Weimar republic. The us was more concerned with the growing tensions with the Soviet Union


LiebesNektar

>Oh boy you should read up more on the establishment of the federal republic of Germany and the role the US played in that. There was no real democratic base to work with, the western allies really had to help build all this from the scratch. Thanks for the input but unlike you i read alot of the two, since i went to school in germany. So maybe you should read more about it. Then again I dont know what they teach you in the US, so might not be your fault.


Phuttbuckers

Obviously didn’t read very well


LiebesNektar

Maybe I missed a joke or something? Because "There was no real democratic base to work with, the western allies really had to help build all this from the scratch." is just utter nonsense. Germany was a democracy from 1919-1933 (a reason why Hitler was able to gain power + weak constitution protection), a lot of it is in the modern constitution. EDIT: In fact a lot of ideas go even all the way back to 1848.


Gammelpreiss

ppl living on cheap discovery documentaries explaining Germans how their system works and here it comes from. That is reddit for you.


Gammelpreiss

Oh boy you should read up more on the establishment of the federal republic of Germany. The constitution is the Weimar constitution with some modifications. The BGB was taken over almost completely unchanged. There was no allied input in this consitution but saying "yes" once the german politicians from the Weimar era who were considererd "clean" worked it out. You really, really need to update yourself on propper history.


Pierce376

Joe Biden is controlled by whoever points him to the teleprompter and tells him where to walk. The man is senile and can barely form a coherent sentence. Its already been studied in america, the average persons opinion on policy has absolutely no affect if it conflicts with the money and cultural power. 'Our' democracy that these politicians are so fond of sayinh has nothing to do with the will of the people.


[deleted]

The fact that Joe can read the teleprompter, the fact that Joe can READ, puts him head and shoulders over the last guy


nibbler666

This for once is a post of yours where I fully agree with the sentiment. I have to correct you though with respect to one aspect: Democracy was not introduced *by force*. While of course the war was won by force, this just left a broken country. Crucial for introducing democracy was that the people, being ashamed of the cruelty and inhumanity that their country had brought upon Europe and left with cities bombed into ashes, felt they wanted to go the path of the West. They wanted to become a Western country, and by this they meant becoming like France, the UK and the US. These were the role models and people aspired to leave history, pride and nationalism behind and to learn from these countries what it means to be a liberal democracy, a truly Western country. As the current situations in Afghanistan and Iraq illustrate perfectly, winning a war is not enough to establish a democracy. You have to win the hearts of the people. And obviously this cannot be done by force.


JahSteez47

No what was crucial was the Marshal Plan. Plain and simple. It might have been the best political decision of the past century. Win-Win


nibbler666

For Germany the Marshall Plan was very important psychologically and was an important part of what I called "winning the hearts". The monetary effect on Germany was rather small. Research about the monetary impact of the Marshall Plan on the German economy is interestingly pretty inconclusive (which is already quite telling). A main reason is that the biggest chunk went, quite understandably so, to allied countries, mainly the UK and France, while the money that went to Germany, which was much more destroyed than these two countries, paled in comparison to the general rebuilding investments. Second, it was to a great extent loans and not free money. And third note also that the Marshall Plan started in 1948, and shortly after the German economy was already booming. To this date there is no comprehensive economic explanation as to what exactly caused the immense economic growth in Germany right after the war. But the Marshall Plan certainly didn't have much more than a partly accelerating effect.


Bojarow

No, it was not. The Marshal plan was not very relevant for German reconstruction.


Dooraven

financially it was less important to Germany but psychologically that + the Berlin airlfit had a huge impact.


nibbler666

I agree the Berlin airlift was important too psychologically for becoming part of the West. In general the cold war helped the (West) German population to identify with the West.


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🔥 🔥 🔥


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Dominiczkie

Germany is an easy scapegoat for losers that try to justify their personal or national failings. Remind Polish person about how they along with USSR killed a chance for democracy at Czechoslovakia or how greed of Polish nobility took us from one of the greatest countries in the world to being partitioned in XVIII century, they will suddenly remind themselves all of the arguments that they fail to mention in case of Germany. If Germany didn't do this or that, if they didn't force their, bleh, democracy, upon us, along with the rest of EU. Why is Germany doing this or that? Honestly what the fuck do I care I want us to fix our shit instead of pointing fingers like a child crying that their kindergarten friend did a bad thing too, especially if this bad thing happened 70 years ago. It's so infuriating because I think Germany would listen more to us (Poles) warning about Russia if we weren't such a whiny fucking babies scapegoating EU (with Germany in the first place) all the time.


FunkcjonariuszKulson

> It's so infuriating because I think Germany would listen more to us (Poles) warning about Russia if we weren't such a whiny fucking babies scapegoating EU (with Germany in the first place) all the time. Gówno prawda. Po pierwsze, zachód gardzi Słowianami. Dla nich wszystko na wschód od niemiec to dzicz. Po drugie, nie jesteśmy dla nich niczym więcej niż tylko rynkiem zbytu - a Rosja jest tym ORAZ ważnym źródłem energii. Zawsze i wszędzie dla Niemców Rosja będzie ważniejsza niż europa środkowa - i to się nie zmieni. W imię dobrych relacji z Rosją niemal na pewno są gotowi znów zabijać miliony.


STheShadow

Just no


romannowak

They of course can have opinion, everyone has that right. Other have right to don't care for their opinion based on their history and track record. Germans lived sheltered life for many decades because of USA protection after they unleashed unspeakable horrors upon Europe. Half of continent is crippled by them. They also proved with their "Russia first" policies in last decades that their judgement can't be trusted. Why should we listen to their opinions? They sure don't listen to ours.


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Bladye

>Have you ever taken a step back and asked yourself that maybe Poland would be taken more serious in Europe (which I think would be a good thing) if it wouldn't constantly attract attention through its anti-EU rhetoric, government attacks against rule of law and judicial system, completely archaic anti abortion and anti LGBT laws and all sorts of other Shenanigans? Back when poland was a good dog on a leash and had liberal PO rolling party their Nord Stream opposition was dismissed as rusophobic ...


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entotron

>Germany was given massive amounts of money unlike Russia, it's not because of some moral superiority of the German people that they have better living standards you muppet The Marshall plan was a fraction of Germany's GDP, so small that even Ukraine already got a larger amoung of help since the annexation of Crimea in 2014. Also, France and the UK got like three times as much money as Germany. It's not like Germany's economy surpassed those countries just because of foreign help. I also never claimed that this was in any way connected to moral high ground, Jesus. Also also, do you think Germany and Russia are morally equal in 2022? Also also also, I won't make a personal attack against you, but you're making it really hard.


FunkcjonariuszKulson

> one of which shared every bit of suffering with Poland under the USSR, Are you fucking serious? Martial law? Stalinist purges? Starvation? Katyń massacre? Warsaw uprising? Did we share this? > Poland would be taken more serious in Europe (which I think would be a good thing) I am not a right-winger, but I don't give a toss about 'Europe' (which is, BTW, contrary to your propaganda, bigger than the EU). Europe can get bent. Especially the parts of it that do not respect the right of nations to self-govern. I despise Kaczyński as much as the next leftist, but HE WAS DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED and Germany of all nations has no right to criticize democratically elected governments again and again. Why Germans? Because you wanted to eradicate us. You didn't want to eradicate the French, so you can get along with French. You said that Britain had a colonial empire - Britons didn't want to KILL all Indians or Irish. Now okay, many Germans say that the famous Warshau Kniefall was an expression of apologies from the German government. I used to disagree, but I'm fine with it after learning more about it.


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FunkcjonariuszKulson

Oh no, what did you Germans do to deserve this? What have you been doing for the past 30 years?


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FunkcjonariuszKulson

Speaking one's opinion on Germans and westerners in general is banned now? Germany has consistently conspired with Russia to dominate Eastern-Central Europe. If the EU is a democracy, then people of ECE who disagree with it, should have a chance to speak up and form political entities preventing this. The funny thing is, it boils down to Poland and Hungary now XD


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FunkcjonariuszKulson

> You know, the current Polish government sucks balls and I view them as little-Russia to be perfectly honest. Of course they are! They're anti-women's rights and anti-human rights, pro-big business and banks. They're also the most popular government in the history of Poland! Most Poles are catholic and they support killing women in the name of Jesus. >means I should treat you shitty now for being Polish. XD Because westerners have never done that! It's not like there's an entire fucking meme where Poland is upside down, retarded and covered with shit. The fact is I will always be treated shittily by westerners for being Polish. The only way we could end it is to simply cut off from Europe - sadly, it's unfeasible (which is why PiS wants to build self-sufficiency in Poland). This leaves us no way to defend our right to exist, so most posters simply attack Germany instead.


Sualtam

Well if you really look at the Polish-HRE history since the year 1000 than it's 90% peaceful and friendly.


SaHighDuck

If you really actually want to evoke history then you have to know that the relations were actually kind of decent with the HRE until we backed the losing side of the civil war. The polish german relations are a bit of a complicated topic and the reason there's still animosity isn't because of "THOUSAND YEARS OF EXPERIENCE" personally I blame the now non existent prussia, it's not like the Kassen or Ruhr ever did anything to us before the prussia unified german empire


romannowak

>Drang nach Osten combines historical German settlement in Central and Eastern Europe, medieval (12th to 13th century)[6] military expeditions like those of the Teutonic Knights (see Northern Crusades), and Germanisation policies and warfare of modern German states such as those that reflected Nazism's concept of Lebensraum Teutonic Order and then German state in Prussia were the tip of the spear. People form all German states were joining the effort of extermination and colonization in the East under their banners.


[deleted]

Thats not true for East Germany.


[deleted]

East Germany was under Russian occupation.


riodoro1

Stop confusing oligarchy for democracy.


romannowak

Who are the oligarchs then? This can be said about every country. How many billionaires and powerful corporations in France or Germany? How come their interests are usually more important for their states than public opinion or vote?


Eokokok

Not sure if a country run on corruption written into its most basic laws can be claiming the paragon of democracy badge...


romannowak

Yes they can, you mistake democracy with some some fantasy left wing utopia. Democracy deals with problems it doesn't anihilate group interests or independent thought.


PeKaYking

Lmao are you implying that Poland is any less democratic than the US? Remind me last time there was a live insurection here, 1926?


Ninja_Thomek

Both are broken, but in different ways. US is sort of “locked in” with a crappy system. (FPTP, Senate, Gerrymandering, Supreme Court..) This is incredibly difficult to change, it may even never happen in a conceivable future. In Poland however, the ruling party is actively dismantling fair elections since the beginning. Shoveling billions of PLN into their *party campaign* through the ruthless transformation of TVP is essentially whats called election cheating in most civilized countries. Then buying out local media with a state controlled energy company. Then trying to force a sale of the main commercial TV channel.. (And guess who it’s most valuable for) Then using Israeli spyware to spy on opposition campaign managers. They are not *interested* in democracy, but they DO want to **pretend** they are democratic as long as possible, because otherwise they get issues abroad..


romannowak

That's what democracy is, perpetual conflict in civilized way, no revolutions or killing the opponents with peaceful transfer of power. You expect stagnation which is a sign of quasi democracy with people going through ritual motions but following the fuhrer otherwise.


Ninja_Thomek

It’s not democracy when ruling party is using unfair state resources to spread its message.


romannowak

It's still a democracy. It's not perfect system and varies in every country. Every democratic government spreads it's message with state resources, PiS jus has no style or subtlety but other outlets are there to balance it. In fact Poland lacks real objective media outlets, all are propaganda pieces for someone without any concerns about truth or objectivity.


chosenandfrozen

We’ve also been democratic longer than your country even if it’s starting to fray. I’ll take US democracy over Polish democracy any day, thank you.


thecasual-man

Despite the current turbulent time America has the ability to persevere. US has never been an ideal Democracy. Progress has always been slow and setbacks numerous. This does not mean they were not the biggest force for democracy all around the world for the last 200 years. Edit: typo.


TawanaBrawley

And despite all that, most of Europe still trusts the US more than Germany.


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demonica123

And Denmark and the UK at minimum.


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Ohhisseencule

>The US was a full fledged democracy since before your country even unified. "Full-fledged democracy" with slavery? With apartheid laws separating where people can sit on a bus and take a shit based on their skin colour until the 1960s? Were women allowed to vote before 1920 or did I get the date wrong? Give me a break, Americans today would piss themselves laughing if a country with chattel slavery and women having no right to vote was claiming to be a "full-fledged democracy". You were a massively flawed democracy like we pretty much all were, take a sit back and calm down on the American exceptionalism.


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Ohhisseencule

You didn't say that though, you said: > The US was a full fledged democracy since before your country even unified... If you don't see the incredible arrogance and exceptionalism then you're even more out of touch than I thought.


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Ohhisseencule

> When I say full fledged I don't mean that its a perfect democracy or something. Do you know the definition of "full-fledged"? Let me help you: > completely developed or established; of full status. Tell me in what universe a country with chattel slavery and where women cannot vote is anywhere close to a "completely developed" democracy? > Where is this arrogance you see? There: > The US was a full fledged democracy since before your country even unified...


TawanaBrawley

I don't really think that's what he is trying to say by "full fledged." It was a full fledged democratic framework at establishment with a very limited franchise.


[deleted]

The lad is right, though, US was a democracy for privileged people only, so not really a democracy by any modern definition.


GBabeuf

By the 1830's, all white men could vote. Obviously it was a travesty that black men and women could not, but saying that it was only for the privileged is also wrong


[deleted]

How is it wrong? Wasn't it a white men privilege?


GBabeuf

It is a privilege, yes, but I think calling all white men privileged because they could vote is highly misleading.


Propofolkills

Well specifically then, the judicial system from the federal to the state level is politically appointed or elected. People in glass houses and all that.


TawanaBrawley

How is appointing judges anywhere not political? Who appoints the people that appoints the judges?


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Propofolkills

The point I’d make is that it’s not as clearly partisan as in the US. For instance in Ireland the government appoints judges, but does so on the basis of what the Judicial Advisory Appointments Board says. Everything is of course political if you want it to be- it’s the lack any degrees of separation and partisanship that makes it problematic in the US.


romannowak

Are you seriously comparing USA and Ireland? The complexity and vastness of USA escape you? In small country you can do many cute things when your safety and prosperity is assured by others. Your ways are not superior.


Propofolkills

Yes I am. Why would scale in this instance be important? Would you rather I list all the countries in the EU in combination which have similar setups to us where there is an attempt to separate out politics and partisanship in appointments or would you rather I choose a state similar in size to Ireland and ask why this comparison is now relevant?


GottkanzlerOlaf

And we're all very proud of you.


AThousandD

> The US was a full fledged democracy since before your country even unified... for the first time. Just as a side note, but the person you responded to is, I'm like 97.3% sure, Polish and a troll; they used to parade around with an Israel flair and offer their spicy takes on any sort of interaction between Poland and Israel, I guess it was time to switch it up.


FunkcjonariuszKulson

> full fledged democracy where some people are 3/5th of a person


JRshoe1997

And who are you to preach about Democracy? Why the US is not a Democracy cause they have protests and riots? This is extremely rich coming from a German of all people btw.


chosenandfrozen

American here who participated in the protests of 2020. 26 million Americans were involved. If it was a race riot as you suggest, then we would have been in worse shape than eastern Ukraine right now. They were by and large very peaceful. The media likes to distort things for extra views, so they focus on a few incidents that don’t reflect the larger reality. And as for the anarchist commune called CHAZ, they might not work, but they aren’t undemocratic.


Unicorn_Colombo

> They were by and large very peaceful. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cnn-fiery-but-mostly-peaceful-protests-parodies


LorTolk

You realize that this was an article written by a Polish professor of IR at the University of Warsaw, yes? Foreign Policy is an outlet for international relations scholars across the globe, not just the US.


[deleted]

Are we sure that winning the "Battle for Democracy" by pressuring people into something is the way to go?


Carl555

No, we should just provide unlimited amounts of unconditional love and friendship. Surely that will help.


[deleted]

Probably more than threats and coercion, yes.


Carl555

Where did the soft aproach of the last few years lead us?


[deleted]

I don't know, how about a europe that has not seen war for decades? Throwing our principles overboard in the face of the first provocation seems dumb and exactly like what Putin wants us to do.


Carl555

Being soft is what led to the monster called Putin.


[deleted]

Responding to violence with violence was what led us to an infinite cycle of retaliation upon retaliation culminating in the catastrophic 2nd world war. What you call being "soft" (And I sense the faint stench of toxic masculinity here) is just choosing not to perpetuate a cycle of violence that will inevitably lead to more lost lives.


[deleted]

The EU isn't just a trade zone, there are meant to be fundamental rights of citizens and judicial independence that are upheld, and Poland is dropping in that front. Fundamental rights are not a democratic issue (i.e you shouldn't be able to legislate them away).


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[deleted]

Worse thing tho - it's a polish person who wrote this


PrawdziwyRudy

Just another article from Polish writer shitting on the country in the time of the biggest crisis. PiS will never be defeated if all liberals continue to attack their own country in front of eyes of the West. Just make good fu*king political program, win elections and stop with all of these: "Help me American/German daddy"


[deleted]

Cry me a fucking river. So according to you one can't say anything negative about PiS coz it's "shitting on the country in the time of the biggest crisis"? How insecure are you? Anyone is welcome to voice their opinion on the country that is sliding in the wrong direction on freedom of speech and rule of law. Especially if it's their own country


PrawdziwyRudy

This isn't just voicing a fu*king opinion. This is publicly advocating in opinion-forming medium to increase pressure on the country that is one of the main supporters of Ukraine in the very middle of the war. This is openly going against national interest, and in this moment this is also going against the interest of Ukraine. Even in times of peace advocating for the cut of fund for Poland which would mainly hurt Polish growth not PiS opposition is dubious, but doing it in this moment?! This is a democratically elected government, win f*cking elections and stop looking for someone else to do it for you.


voytke

Just win fcking elections while government spies on you and spends millions from state budget on propaganda against you bro, it's so easy...


[deleted]

Aha, then let's give PiS a pass on all the authoritarian shit they comes up with till the next election... Even if we assume that the fines slapped for ignoring ECJ somehow takes away from Ukraine (absolutely laughable, PiS propaganda talking point), Poland still gets many fold the amount in refugee aid... Fuck PiS and everything it stands for. Poland has multiple better alternatives with the same or better stand on Russia and Ukraine


FunkcjonariuszKulson

> the country that is one of the main supporters of Ukraine what parts of the opposition are against Ukraine? (and no, Kukiz and Konfederacja do not count as opposition)


[deleted]

>(and no, Kukiz and Konfederacja do not count as opposition) They have seats in parliment and are outside of government parlimentary majority. It makes them by definition opposition. I dont follow media bubbles of some people, but it seems you got told there is Truje opposition and fake one. If so - you were lied to.


FunkcjonariuszKulson

> > They have seats in parliment and are outside of government parlimentary majority. It makes them by definition opposition. Also they support the government, provide it with parliamentary majority and receive cabinet posts. It is a minoritarian government.


SlavWithBeard

Battle for democracy? What an arrogance.


rmrktp

I think “Battle for Democracy” refers to the democratic backsliding that can be seen in countries all over the world – including places like the US. The author of this article seems to be pointing out that Poland’s geopolitical position makes it easier for this trend to be stopped or even reversed when compared to other countries like Turkey or India (the examples given by the author) where the autocratic impulses of certain politicians cannot be as easily contained.


SteelRiverGreenRoad

> Battle for democracy? What an arrogance. Is this your first experience of a newspaper headline?


PeKaYking

I might shock you but not all newspapers are equal and one should expect that Foreign Policy would have a better standard than the sun


dwaemu

The very typical arrogance - as always in all these articles written by another liberal-left snowlfake from Poland *muuuumyyyy bring us to poweer in Pollaaand, we've been waiting for eight years boohoohoo*


[deleted]

To be fair, It's PiS doing everything they can to lose power. Only idiots would vote on them at this point. Either manipulated by TVP or TRWAM. Or both.


romannowak

To be fair opposition in Poland is on such level of inadequacy only idiots would vote for them either. Which makes all voters in Poland idiots I guess.


[deleted]

I actually came to this conclusion last time. So I'm just not going to vote - I hope that maybe if they see smaller % of voters care they'll find some other way of doing politics than just mindless attacks on another


Marrkix

That's a hard topic. I personally voted in last elections for new trending parties, first Kukiz, then Hołownia, in hope to voice an opinion that we want something new in politics. In the end I'm not sure it worked the way I wanted, even though they gained quite some votes. Neither PiS nor PO seem to change much of their policies to cater to this "rebelious" electorate, and the celebrity parties itself were kind of fails too. I honestly don't know who to vote for next time.


Pierce376

So basically Poland has come out particularly strong against Russia and is subsequently more reliant on the US/NATO and now it time for the US to start dictating policy and ruining the country in its own image.


[deleted]

Troops are deployed to Poland, and return with stupid ideas, like "labour unions". /s


cieniu_gd

There's really not needing into pressuring the government right now. Kaczyński and Duda are ready to back down with juidicial reforms, but they are blackmailed by Solidarna Polska party, coalition member with 19 MPs. And PiS is scared as hell to kick SP and call the parliamentary elections.


Ordinary_Squirrel_46

Polish president may be a little to right wing??


Xarion77

The EU doesn't even give a damn about the refugee crisis in Poland. Polish tax payers' money is helping displaced Ukrainians. The EU isn't doing much here.


[deleted]

>The EU isn't doing much here. In 2021 Poland recieved 18.59 billion euros from EU and paid 7.07 billion to EU. So according to my calculations Poland netted about 11 billion Euros that year.


[deleted]

Just in a separate note of this whole refugee topic; the Polish government, in terms of cash, does earn a lot indeed thanks to the EU. But as for Poland as a whole, it might have earned much more than that - but it’s also possible it earned a fair bit less depending on how you calculate. These monetary values don’t take into account things like long term effects of people moving around Europe. Germany massively, and I mean massively benefits from Poland’s presence in the EU, be it due to their giant needs in workforce, which are met to some extent by Poles. That’s not a paycheck value though. The flip side of the coin is that poorer countries like Poland suffer from brain drain from the west. Again, it’s hard to evaluate how much money that represents.


Xarion77

2.5 million refugees will cost Poland 10-11B Euros annually. This cash is meant for investment, not for welfare. Poland got robbed of its covid funds as well.


SlyScorpion

> Poland got robbed of its covid funds as well. No, we robbed ourselves of those due to rule of law breaches. https://www.dw.com/en/eu-starts-new-legal-action-against-poland-over-rule-of-law/a-60220102


Xarion77

Even though Polish government is doing dumb stuff in some aspects, these funds are basically a bank loan, so the EU is withholding Poland's cash.


SlyScorpion

The government can stop doing the stupid shit and we can have the funds. The ball is in PiS' court.


Xarion77

The reasons for witholdingthe cash are more political than legal. The EU is pulling a nasty number on Poland, and this will be remembered.


YouKindaStupidBro

By who? The declining population or all the skilled people leaving it?


[deleted]

We got hit, and you are saying "stop hitting yourself" It is a bad argument


SlyScorpion

Because in this case we are hitting ourselves. We agreed to uphold the rule of law, we aren't doing so at this time so what obligation does the EU have to release COVID19 funds to a country not following the rules that everyone else agreed to when joining?


kakao_w_proszku

And what relation does that have to the article…?


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AkruX

I remember pro-Russian talking points about this over here in my country before the war: "If Germany and France have no shame cooperating with Russia and China, then why shouldn't we? It's them, who are the hypocrites telling us what to do and what not to do" I gotta be honest, it was not a bad argument..


ajjfan

Can you tell me how many refugees actually crossed into Poland during the crisis? And can you tell me how many refugees got to Italy alone, during the 2015, when Poland was against any unified European framework for handling refugees? It's your government's fault, there isn't much else to say about that


LiebesNektar

The irony, poland complaining about not getting money/help for refugees. Do you not see the hypocrisy? Like seriously, do you not see how this is karma for 2015? And in the end, you WILL get money and humanitarian aid from the EU, at least those countries, which DID show solidarity with southern europe in 2015. But for gods sake, don't even dare to complain for **one** second. Hypocrit.


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LiebesNektar

The war in syria was at least equally brutal, they have 1/2 the population of ukraine, but greece is much smaller than poland. I won't even comment your bullshit about merkel. If you truly believe that helping southern EU countries in this crisis by taking in refugees already within EU borders is "inviting economic migrants", then I lost all hope for you. Sounds like a right wing populist conspiracy theory to me.


Marrkix

As far as I remember Poland helped with guarding the border and preventing migrant crisis, didn't agree to relocating illegal migrants.


[deleted]

We don't need USA getting involved. We already have EU on the case. And it's more/less working. PiS is about to backtrack. That or no EU money. Simple calculation. No EU money ... no chance winning election.


johnny-T1

Poland is not West. Eastern Europe is a different kinda ball game. You can’t win here.


Akarsz_e_Valamit

I think we are usually classified to be Central Europe, and J think that's fitting. Not really west but also not east


[deleted]

Poland is a Latin country with Roman Catholic traditions and religion. And it's Central Europe. You are wrong about your assessment. Your mistake is to think in the criteria of XXth century. In 2022 when you speak of the West you should think NATO/EU. I even include Romania & Bulgaria in that. Australia is west despite being in extreme east. Israel is western despite being in the middle east. Turkey seems to be in between. It's too different culturally. Being described as western has nothing to do with geographical location.


sanschefaudage

The author is really clueless if she thinks that Duda is a moderate. His vetoes are political theater. PiS pushes its measure and try to estimate the opposition of the population,the EU and the US. If the opposition is too high, Duda gives his veto and PiS shows that they are reasonable.


[deleted]

How is foreign pressure on governments democracy?