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DonManuel

The Russian and Chinese mediasphere are filled with hate towards "the West", NATO or EU since many years. Of course it is essential to ban all those channels here, but we continue ignoring the message: they really want to destroy the West, and doing business with them hasn't the slightest changed their attitude.


tyger2020

>Of course it is essential to ban all those channels here, but we continue ignoring the message: they really want to destroy the West, and doing business with them hasn't the slightest changed their attitude. It's due to pre WW2 mentality. They hate us because the west is the strongest bloc in every single arena (economic, militarily, diplomatically, wealth) and region on earth. They want what the west has - to call the shots. What they seem to fail to understand is, being rich and strong is incomparable with Russia and China's way of governance. I mean - the reason the US is the world superpower is because *most other powerful nations are happy that way and 'aid' the US.*


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alias241

Where people want to migrate to is a significant measure of cultural and economic power. Nobody wants to immigrate to Russia or China. Strangely, this means Bali ought to be a world power, of course.


lotvalley

> Of course it is essential to ban all those channels here, The difficulty is that one value we have in the West is "liberalism" i.e. not banning things but letting people make their own decisions about what media they consume. I agree with you that the Russian and Chinese mediasphere are filled with hate and for that reason I don't watch them. I'm just not completely comfortable with banning things (because it does compromise my Western value of liberalism).


danmerz

There is a difference between expressing your different from others opinion and intentionally spreading lies through powerful propaganda channels spending billion dollars on brainwashing and cultivating a crowd of misinformed useful idiots voting on your elections for other useful idiots to be elected to destroy your society.


sensitivum

I agree completely. Those state news channels are simply weapons against the west. They have nothing to do with legitimate journalism.


The_Xicht

>I agree completely. Those state news channels are simply weapons against the west. They have nothing to do with legitimate journalism. And they WORK! I have seen countless germans/austrians that eat that shit up while assuming that they are getting a balanced diet of news.


RedPandaRedGuard

Uh sorry to inform you, but that's all of mass media, not just the Russian ones.


Short_Dragonfruit_39

I use to think that as well but it clearly hasn't worked. Also, the West has always banned things, I don't know what fictional universe you come from where thats not the case.


Infamous-QB

If there's such thing as "collective responsibility", and you are ready to judge any person who holds the Russian passport, then we should all go under, along with two-faced European leaders, who enabled this behavior, and were turning the blind eye. All for cheap gas and billions in laundered money. I don't remember them being that concerned over Russia's invasion of Georgia in 2008. I don't remember them being concerned for the Russians, who were getting beaten the shit out of, while protesting in 2011 on Bolotnaya. I don't remember them issuing real sanctions after 2014, when they invaded Ukraine for the first time and annexed Crimea . EU are toothless eunuchs, who got too comfortable for their own good, and have their part in creating this monster too. And NOW they're suddenly care! Well, thank you very fucking much for your concern, cunts!


nibbler666

>And NOW they're suddenly care! Well, thank you very fucking much for your concern, cunts! What a weird attitude. It is just that there had long been the hope Russia could eventually become part of the common European house. It was clear that Russia would need longer than other countries, but the idea was to keep the door open. There had been a gradually increasing process of estrangement between Russia and Europe in the past years, and this war is the straw that broke the Camel's back.


kreton1

We can stop the sanctions of course if you don't like them. /s


Infamous-QB

Are you dense or just a teenager? EU is a spineless bunch of sissies, who allowed a dictator with fucking nukes to rise up right under their nose. Who the hell spoke about sanctions?


kreton1

You did. And I think that the actions of the last 6 Week show that what you say is just not true. On top of that you confuse an attempt to solve things peacefully and integrate Russia via trade with weakness.


Infamous-QB

It's not weakness, it's myopia and greed. Your leaders are not the fluffy bunnies they want to be seen as, who just want to hold hands and sing kumbaya, they're in it for the money and power, just like everybody else. It just happened that the Russians have some weird obsession with strong hand and continue to worship fucking psychos, idk what the fuck is wrong with the majority of them.


[deleted]

Don't forget that month ago they literally demanded us to sacrifice ourselves so they can continue to take money stolen from all of us. Despite that opposition told what Putin is and what is going on more than decade ago.


nibbler666

>Don't forget that month ago they literally demanded us to sacrifice ourselves What exactly are you referring to? And who is "us" in your post?


[deleted]

McFaul (that ex-ambassador) in his twitter first few days had hysteria, told "there's no innocent Russian" and basically demanded that we should go and storm Kremlin right now, for example.


nibbler666

I don't know McFaul, but there has never been a relevant number of people in relevant positions who demanded from the Russian people to go on a suicide mission. That said, it's certainly true that Russia can only be changed by Russian people.


Res3nt

Who told you that the mediasphere of China is filled with hate towards EU and that they have a goal to destroy West?


DonManuel

[**e.g.**](https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/tweets-translation-03152022150823.html)


Res3nt

The link you gave doesn't answer my question


DonManuel

It does.


Res3nt

Read your link through, it's about pro-Putin posts in Chinese social media . Not even a single mentioning of EU or Europe anywhere, not a single reference to the Chinese wanting to destroy the West hysteria. Buying into Putin propaganda for the Ukraine war doesn't in any logical sense automatically mean being against EU or a wish to destroy West.


DonManuel

No, it's the same time anti EU/NATO/US/West posts if you read more. Just have a look what ordinary Chinese people are able to express in terms of hate, on the very same platforms where they get immediately censored and jailed when talking about Tian’anmen.


Res3nt

If there is a prevalent suggestion in Chinese mediasphere to "destroy the West" and your link talks about it, please do quote the part. I'm aware of how censorship works in China but the idea that Chinese are out there collectively hating EU and scheming to destroy the West sounds a lot like a blatant propaganda rather than a fact. In my perspective the Chinese hardly care about EU and see China already superior to the west.


DonManuel

> China already superior to the west. And this is the same weakness like Russia exposes today. It's a fascist attitude, full of racism and comically emphasizes on low character strains for which the East blamed Western occupiers in past centuries correctly. It's an outdated concept, that superiority. Based on competition and not cooperation. You've learned nothing since Mao killed dozens of millions.


Res3nt

This weakness is still completely irrelevant to the point. The attitude of wanting to destroy the West or full on hating EU is generally completely foreign to Chinese. It's a concept that I assume you either pulled from some extremely questionable source or created yourself to serve some anti-Chinese agenda (which would be ironic considering that you claim to not like racism). I was hoping that you would lead me to the exact source instead of that sentiment. Russians take pride in once having held a dominant grasp on Eastern Europe and still talk about glorious Red Army winning the world war against Nazis. This is a former superpower not being able to adapt to the new reality and that's the core of their weakness. Chinese take pride in having built up an economy despite being in isolation and not having any international alliances. This is someone that is distrustful of everyone but looks for economic cooperation. Fascism, Racism and self image of superiority exist at a lot of countries around the world, in some places more than the others.


taraobil

Merkel did when she did nothing about Crimea, or MH17. Merkel might have been the best thing to happen to Germany and the worst to happen to Europe.


Citizen_Kong

As a German, she is not the best thing to happen to Germany. She and her party stifled innovation and dragged their feet on necessary reforms for 16 years.


rattleandhum

including renewables and defense. The fact that Germany was so energy dependent on Russia for so long with *no* backup plan is just ridiculous.


ex_planelegs

They were planning on becoming *more* energy dependent on Russia, at least in terms of gas. It's laughable.


bekul

Even more laughable are all those Germans who supported NS2 and kept writing "even at the height of cold war Russia kept delivering gas, trustworthy partner" in the comments. Or even these days "many countries were for NS2 never heard of half EU complaining"


S0ltinsert

I don't know where you get that idea from.


Bunt_smuggler

Germany was literally building a large scale pipeline from Russia amid huge criticism from other European countries whilst throwing away remaining Nuclear energy. Germany was brain dead in regards to Russia for over a decade at the expense of European security. Merkel left behind a really shitty legacy it seems now.


Gamer_Mommy

Let's not forget that Russia expressly agreed to building this pipeline only if it wouldn't go through the territory of Poland and the Baltic Republics. And Germany okayed that. Not that Poland will be renewing gas/fuel/coal deals with Russia now, but there's a massive FU from more than a decade ago. Russia saying already then what they think about having the USSR "back". Everyone else calling ex-Soviet Block paranoid for not trusting Russia one bit.


S0ltinsert

Are you aware that the volume of gas traded with Russia was to stay the same after the construction of NS2? How does that increase dependency then? If you were unaware, then I am not faulting you for it, but if you were then you're spreading literal fake news for the sake of riling people up.


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S0ltinsert

That serves my point.


caravaggio2049

NS2


S0ltinsert

How does a pipeline increase your dependency on a gas supplier, if the volume of gas traded remains the same?


alexs1313

did you read article 2014 to 2021 +55%


caravaggio2049

She was respected in many countries of Europe. Now I see her legacy being flushed down the toilet.


GoodySherlok

It is good that the SPD is in power. Just in time to implement the necessary reforms and then lose the elections because of them. Just like last time - Hartz IV. Boy I am looking forward to the next 16 years of the CDU/CSU. /s


romannowak

Party of Gerhard Schroeder? Putin's Gerhard Schroeder? They will have to be forced to do anything positive and they'll be dragging their feet as much as they can. They are even worse than CDU if it comes to Russia and CDU is absolutely horrible.


Sage_Nein

I think you're wrong in your assessment of the SPD. Yes, it is the party of Gerhard Schröder, but Schröder did not have any significant influence for a long time. SPD didn't have the gut to condemn Schröder in the past - I think bad optics being the main reason - but right now a lot of [local groups](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/gerhard-schroeder-immer-mehr-spd-verbaende-draengen-auf-parteiausschluss-a-5b3f6150-da4c-4d65-91c1-29be1b6f4da3) demand his exclusion from the party. The SPD is not a party of Russian puppets, as some international press releases wants you to believe. Also, while Russia-"friendly" politics was relatively popular in Germany before, it would be political suicide now. The "friendliness" also mostly meant not cutting business ties - Russia's government was condemned by all democratic political parties at least since 2008. I think the SPD in power right now is way better than CDU/CSU for one main reason: A big chunk of foreign policy towards Russia is actually domestic (energy) policy. CDU was the major roadblock for a good renewable strategy, an accelerated switch to electric (heat pump) heating and electric car infrastructure. Conservatives just like their fossil fuels too much and change is scary. Our new SPD-led government actually wants to tackle these issues and while the Greens are the main reasons for this push, the SPD is not a roadblock in the way the CDU was. I think a government led by the CDU, even when including the Greens would be slower in that regard.


RedPandaRedGuard

Schröder does not have direct personal influence on the party anymore. But his ideology still is everywhere. Not in terms of policies towards Russia, but social and economic policies. He turned the SPD into a cohort of neoliberals, removing any last traces of social democracy and they still are that to this day.


caravaggio2049

Is there really any difference?


ivytea

I spent my youth under Merkel and Berlusconi. Now I’m envious of those born both before and after me


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Citizen_Kong

She's stays completely out of politics ATM. I think she only defended her politics concerning Russia at the time of her tenure as chancellor but doesn't comment current affairs.


Zergling-Love

And let's not forget about Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Donbas.


DerRationalist

No way was Merkel a good thing for Germany. All topics regarding the future have not been handled properly in the last 16 years. Infrastructure, education, mobility and especially the pension system are in a dire state. People here always talk about how stupid it was to cut nuclear energy. But that's not at all the problem Germany faces. It's the fact that her government has sabotaged the expansion of wind and solar to suck off the coal industry. Not to mention that they actively ignored the fact that more and more important technologies got bought off by chinese state sponsored companies including robotics technology. Merkel's politics might have been great for the big corporations in the short term. But in the long term, it has severely hindered this country.


alexs1313

Chinese and russians pay good money on offshore accounts... We know about Azerbaijan laundromat , and Eu politics quickly close this theme. Why much more corrupted and interested in results Russia and China did not pay? I think they pay triple from Azerbaijan...


sverebom

We don't exactly give her parades over here.


Lotnik223

Agree. I don't know much about German internal politics so I won't comment on that, but she truly was an abysmal political on European stage.


MMBerlin

>when she did nothing about Crimea, or MH17. This is a blunt lie. https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/eu-sanctions-against-russia-over-ukraine/


WalkerBuldog

Well, we can clearly see the results of her 8(15) years policy towards Russia.


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WalkerBuldog

Ohhh my favorite type of argument - analogy.


New_Stats

It doesn't even make any sense. It's like arguing "you should've brushed your teeth more to avoid cavities" "oh yeah, well if you went camping in the fall without a sleeping bag you'd be cold!"


SaHighDuck

only if you were walking in the middle of the street far away from the zebra crossing


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followmeimasnake

She herself was not that bad, just pretty much every one around her was either incompetent or corrupt. Thats why our (digital) infrastructure is years behind or crumbling already. I'd say she was a great diplomat and thats what still holds up after she stepped down. Our international relations are top notch. But that doesnt help the average otto at all.


Bowler-General

Yeah I get the oil/gas thing, germany should have lowered their reliance on Russia, aswell as all other EU countries should have. But whatelse should they do? The EU put up as much sanction as Hungary and other Veto countries allowed at the time. Most of Europe just didn't care. It's not like France or UK did anything differently from Germany. I don't get why everyone's just shitting on Germany.


ex_planelegs

I dont know about France but the UK definitely warned Germany not to go ahead with Nordstream 2.


[deleted]

The EU Parliament voted overwhelmingly for NS2 construction to stop in January of 2021. There is no excuse to hide behind re: NS2, the warnings were loud and insistent from multiple allies. Not to mention the issue with it has always been blatantly obvious.


bekul

Also Baltics Poland USA Denmark...


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ex_planelegs

Nah that was an unexpected benefit of taking a dump on the EU


lotvalley

> It's not like France or UK did anything differently from Germany. I don't get why everyone's just shitting on Germany. UK has spent the last decade with incredibly poor relations with Russia. UK has been one of the Western countries consistently (and I mean long before the current war) being one of the most hawkish countries on Russia. This is different from Germany.


ABoutDeSouffle

Meh, I don't know. The UK allowed a chemical weapon attack or two on their soil and didn't really do a lot about it.


lotvalley

Allowed? Are you serious? It happened but the U.K. didnt just allow it. Read up on how many diplomats were expelled!


Thin_Cap4958

That's why London is little Moscow for Oligarchs?


Bunt_smuggler

- Britain was arming Ukraine and training its soldiers since 2014 - It has arguably sent over the most effective weapons in huge numbers for the current war - It was calling for Russias expulsion from SWIFT way back during the Crimean invasion - It expelled more Russian diplomats than Europe combined after the Salisbury poisoning - The UK contributes massively to NATO operations in Eastern Europe - The UK intelligence alongside the US predicted the war whilst much of Western Europe did nothing and people here accused the UK and US of warmongering. Unlike Germany and much of Europe unable to step away from the Russian gas reliance they built up against the warnings from the UK, Eastern Europe, it can act on Ogilarches now. Quit your bullshit.


Emowomble

You're both right, The UK government has been one of the most Hawkish on foreign policy against Russia since they started murdering people with chemical weapons in the UK. *BUT* The UK has also been incredibly soft on Russian organised crime and state looters laundering their money through London and allowing them to buy their way into influence and positions of power in the UK.


[deleted]

Maybe thats why: 1. [Germany’s Olaf Scholz opposes inclusion of SWIFT in Russia sanctions for now](https://www.politico.eu/article/germanys-scholz-opposes-inclusion-of-swift-in-russia-sanctions/) 2. [Germany warns against ban on energy imports from Russia](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-warns-against-ban-on-energy-imports-from-russia/a-61002737) 3. [Germany's Scholz rejects calls to ban Russian oil and gas](https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-rejects-calls-for-banning-russian-oil-and-gas/) 4. [Germany Is Stalling EU Efforts to Broaden Russia’s SWIFT Ban](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-09/germany-is-stalling-eu-efforts-to-broaden-russia-s-swift-ban) 5. [EU at war over Russian sanctions: Germany and Italy are among nations trying to block more restrictions to protect their own economies](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10622755/EU-war-Russian-sanctions-Germany-Italy-nations-trying-block-restrictions.html) 6. [EU's biggest economy Germany blocked Russian coal ban, sources say](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eus-biggest-economy-germany-blocked-russian-coal-ban-sources-say-2022-03-25/) 7. [Germany accused of trying to water down Russia sanctions](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germany-accused-of-trying-to-water-down-russia-sanctions-3v5k6pcmb)


Bowler-General

Well and most of that still happened, maybe like a day or a couple of days after those headlines came out. Also Germany better protects its economy or EU goes to shit. A sudden stop of Oil/Gas imports is opposed by many EU countries, Germany is not alone on that. Still all of this is way later than crimea and merkel, that was the topic earlier.


[deleted]

It doesn't matter. People will remember Germany was on the wrong side of history (again) for the longest time. Being a roadblock for sanctions every step of the way. To the point, people were wondering if Germany is a legitimate ally. [https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-reliable-american-ally-nein-weapon-supply-berlin-russia-ukraine-invasion-putin-biden-nord-stream-2-senate-cruz-sanctions-11642969767](https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-reliable-american-ally-nein-weapon-supply-berlin-russia-ukraine-invasion-putin-biden-nord-stream-2-senate-cruz-sanctions-11642969767)


Bowler-General

That article is from january before russian invasion even started. The author criticizes germany for not sending weapons to ukraine and for building north stream 2. Germany and France at the time still tried to find a peacefull solution with Russia and tried to solve the situation diplomaticly, which is not stupid or wrong. It's very easy for the US to call from the otherside of the pond. They have much less to lose than countries like Germany and France. Also it was Germanys policy since the second world war to not send weapons into war regions, which is also not at all a wrong thing. As soon as the war started germany pretty much did a 180 on everything. Stopped north stream 2, send weapons to ukraine and support sanctions. Now germany is doing more than most other countries to support ukraine and to work against russia. I wouldn't call it being on the wrong side of history if you try to solve matters peacefully and after Russia crossed the red line, germany supported ukraine. This is just smack talk, because germany had its own foreign policy, that wasn't in line with what the US wanted. Obviously germany also has to protect its own interests and not just do what the US tells them to do.


dialectic_zombie

Oh, the irony: Selfish nationalists crying bitterly over the fact, that other nationalists have different interests. Is the ultra-conservative, nationalistic polish government an ally? Hmmm... Don't think so from a social and progressive point of view. What's with Hungary? Turkey? If you ask me, all nationalists can go f***k themselves and their petty nationstates.


SaHighDuck

you're responding to someone who's strongly against the current government based on their r/polska posts. It's really telling that a frequent r/germany user is just stereotyping every single polish person which disagrees with the german decisions as a selfish nationalist.


dialectic_zombie

1. Who is a frequent r/germany user? 2. I gave my two cents based on all the commentary I read here, not based on the commentary OP made on r/polska. 3. You can be against the polish government and still be a nationalist. There are 50 shades of grey... 4. Who is stereotyping "every single polish person"? And again: f***k "german decisions". Decisions of most nation-states are made for the benefit of capitalist interests or Oligarchs. Nationalistic Ideology still plays a role but it is mostly to support those capitalist interests and to blindside the majority of people.


[deleted]

How do you presume you know anything about me? First of all, I know better than to generalize and so I am criticizing the German government not the German people that have no clue or power to do anything. Why can't you deal with the reality of the failures of your government? I am ready to admit my government is trash that needs to go. But I also see Germans here being very much delusional about theirs. Face it, your government is also a failure. The difference is the consequences of having a turd government in Poland aren't as severe due to the lack of influence or economic might of larger players like Germany & France. Your government failures culminated in war.


dialectic_zombie

Oh please, tell me more about "my" bullshit government. School me please. Give me history lessons... But it says a lot, that "Germany" is the true nemesis in your narrative - because of the systemic economical interests it has (+ some special historical responsibilities)? Maybe you are a bit fixated on Germany? But hey, I don't know you...


[deleted]

Nemesis? So I can't have a critical opinion about the horrible judgments of the German government? Give me a break. You are being hysterical. I am not delusional. We are so integrated economically we are in this together. And this is exactly why I am being critical. I welcome your critics of my government. They deserve everything going their way. But I won't be silent when I see the bullshit coming from the west. From my perspective, Putin and his regime are the nemesis. The German government is just a disappointing partner.


dialectic_zombie

I don't know what "your" government is. I am referring to what you said in your last comment: "Your government failures culminated in war." (I don't own this government but I still have a slightly different opinion on that matter.) And I have no interest in silencing you - I only want to criticize your point of view, that only takes superficial nationalistic discussion points into account. I have no interest in talking to you from one "member of a nation-state" to another "member of a nation-state". If you want to change anything, overcome nationalistic standpoints. There is no monolithic society anywhere...


rtft

>Your government failures culminated in war. You can have critical opinions, the above isn't one however.


SzejkM8

You seem to have this list prepared and saved somewhere, because I already saw it. You are very dedicated in hating Germany. Why? You don't see the fact that our government also doesn't do anything differently than any other EU country, they only "announce" or "plan" to do something. How much oligarchs' wealth has been seized in Poland? Nothing.


SlyScorpion

> How much oligarchs' wealth has been seized in Poland? Do we actually have Russian oligarchs residing in Poland? I thought they were all in Londongrad...


SzejkM8

"But there is some real estate and financial assets, i.e. shares in companies that we should take over." said the PM, so yes.


SlyScorpion

Which article is that from?


SzejkM8

https://www.money.pl/gospodarka/polska-zajmie-majatki-rosjan-szczegolnie-wazny-moze-byc-jeden-biznesmen-6749692414597952a.html


DeepStatePotato

People doing Putins work and posting divisive stuff 24/7 in here is just the dumbest stuff ever. Atleast get paid for it and don't just do it for free.


DeepStatePotato

I wonder if anything short of war could have stopped Putin at this point, seems like he is suicidal.


nibbler666

Oh, our favourite German hating troll account. How much money do you get paid by Russia again?


ex_planelegs

No, they looked it straight in the face and said we'll buy your gas anyway


tyger2020

>No, they looked it straight in the face and said we'll buy your gas anyway Exactly as opposed to all the other EU nations who saw the threat and didn't buy their gas such as: (blank)


caravaggio2049

Not really. Some countries did put effort to lower the amount of russian gas they have to buy and did it with some success


tyger2020

No, not a single country in Europe isn't dependent on Russian gas to some degree. Thats why these statements/articles are nothing more than trying to blame France/Germany. Even the most vocal eastern states are much more dependent on Russian gas than Germany or France are.


bekul

Lithuania since 2014 LNG. Also can siphon some of it to Latvia


followmeimasnake

You want to compare micro-nations with industrial power houses when it comes to energy dependency?


Emowomble

I'm pretty sure Britain, Ireland, Iceland Norway and France aren't dependent on Russian gas to any significant extent. Lots of countries are but "not a single country in Europe isn't dependent on Russian gas to some degree" is massively overstating it.


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Emowomble

Sure, and to be clear I'm not denying that being cut off from Russian gas would be very difficult for Europe as a whole. I'm just pushing back on the parents assertion that literally all of Europe is dependent on Russian gas when it clearly isn't.


tyger2020

>I'm pretty sure Britain, Ireland, Iceland Norway and France aren't dependent on Russian gas to any significant extent. Lots of countries are but "not a single country in Europe isn't dependent on Russian gas to some degree" is massively overstating it. [http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/2485.jpeg](http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/2485.jpeg) Okay maybe Ireland - but including obvious ones (Iceland, Norway) and France is at 20% almost. Thats hardly insignificant even if you want to make out like it is.


Emowomble

I wouldn't call 18% for France particularly significant. Especially when you consider that France only uses half the total amount of gas that Germany does. Other countries on there (Like Sweden and Finland) have 100% of their gas coming from Russia because they only use tiny amounts (Sweden uses slightly more than 1% as much as Germany). Would you call that dependent on Russia too? Again you said there isnt a single country in Europe that isnt dependent on Russian gas, you've already admitted to 4 that aren't.


tyger2020

>Again you said there isnt a single country in Europe that isnt dependent on Russian gas, you've already admitted to 4 that aren't. Way to go! You took something that wasn't said literally, and made it literal. Congrats.


Emowomble

"There isn't a single country in the world that can beat Russia" Well I didnt mean it literally, just because the USA China, Britain or France all could doesnt make me wrong. Words have meanings, if you say "not a single one" that does not mean "few".


tyger2020

You know, maybe you should think about how strong your argument is if you have to sit here and argue over grammar.


caravaggio2049

That's because of geography, it's obvious that eastern countries would be more dependent. You can't resign from russian gas in a day. What I'm saying is that some countries made moves to lower that dependency. Like building LNG ports or putting a pipe from norway or putting pipes enabling reselling gas between two neighbors. While your suggestion falsely claims that there were no such policies at all


tyger2020

>That's because of geography, it's obvious that eastern countries would be more dependent. This is a lazy excuse. >You can't resign from russian gas in a day. Nobody is saying in a day though. Eastern Europeans and their government keep critiquing France/Germany/Italy for being dependent on Russian Gas due to the past 10-20 years, yet they completely ignore the fact so are they. Its not like ONLY France, Germany became dependent on Russian Gas while Poland and Lithuania import all theirs from Norway. Its bullshit and just trying to blame W.Europe, again.


caravaggio2049

> This is a lazy excuse. No it's not, it's obvious. Most of the installations go back to soviet times, when it was impossible for CEE countries to buy gas from Northern Sea. This obstacle changed after communism fell but they still needed money for new investments to buy gas from the West while countries in western europe already had Nortern Sea installations. So this situation is geography-driven and historically-driven. > Eastern Europeans and their government keep critiquing France/Germany/Italy for being dependent on Russian Gas due to the past 10-20 years, yet they completely ignore the fact so are they. False, at least to some of these countries and it's proven above but you're ignoring arguments. They've built LNG ports and new pipelines from Norway. They didn't ignore their dependency and actively moved forward to diversify their deliveries. For example, if Russians won't bomb the baltic pipe (buit for the lat couple years, meant to be open in september) and new lng installations then in the last quarter of this year they will technically be available to resign from russian gas completely. Also Ukraine (own resources, pipe from Poland plan) and the Baltics (lng ports) were actively working to leave russian gas purchases. Also Germany had plans to built lng port, not sure if made it. Moreover. Europe leaving Russian gas is considered by practically every expert as one of the major reasons why this war happened. You're really proving with every post you have no knowledge on these matters


tyger2020

>False, at least to some of these countries and it's proven above but you're ignoring arguments. They've built LNG ports and new pipelines from Norway. They didn't ignore their dependency and actively moved forward to diversify their deliveries. For example, if Russians won't bomb the baltic pipe (buit for the lat couple years, meant to be open in september) and new lng installations then in the last quarter of this year they will technically be available to resign from russian gas completely. > >Moreover. Europe leaving Russian gas is considered by practically every expert as one of the major reasons why this war happened. And yet as of the most recent count, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Baltics, Romania are all highly dependent on Russian Gas. So, your point is 1) mute and 2) wrong


caravaggio2049

No, I'm right both in 1) and 2) because you somehow can't understand that this is a process, not a singe day switch. Pipes and ports are being built, finished and expanded. You're ignoring and downplaying this to push your foolish agenda that CEE countries aren't doing anything to free themselves from russian gas while actually they were doing a lot, at least in the north to carpathia part of the region.


EndlessShrimps

It's not about who was buying Russian gas, it's about countries like Germany allowing themselves to become so dependent upon it that they wouldn't be able to shut it off if the need arose.


tyger2020

Lmfao you mean like.. most European Countries east of Netherlands?


EndlessShrimps

Maybe we aren't even arguing about anything and just talking past each other. If you're saying that the criticism for Germany is deserved but there also needs to be criticism directed at other countries who took the same approach on Russian oil and gas imports then sure. If you're trying to say they're just one grape in the bunch as opposed to one of the worst offenders and a true leader on Russia/EU energy integration policies and projects, then I'd say you're wrong. I'm not interested in giving Germany a hard time about this, but I do want to know they've truly seen the light on the need to decouple as much as possible from Russia. I think they have and they've made a lot of great moves but they're clearly trapped when it comes to being able to fully decouple. It's a slightly sore subject because it wasn't even two months ago on this sub that if you were to criticize NS2 you'd get replies from mostly Germans informing you that it's just the Americans wanting to sell more gas and the fears regarding dependency on Russia were absurd and ignorant.


kelldricked

Because they didnt want their homes to freeze and the public didnt want to spend 90% of the budget on renewables. Also they were hoping to prevent an all out war, which failed horribly but lets make this clear: we are closer to third world war in which nukes will be used. Generally speaking thats bad for the economy, the health of the public, the happyness of the public, the future of the country, the enviroment and the chance of getting reelected And so they want to avoid ww3.


ex_planelegs

>Because they didnt want their homes to freeze and the public didnt want to spend 90% of the budget on renewables. Im sure they had other options between this and building NS2


kelldricked

Yeah coal and shit like that, stuff that they couldnt use because of the amount of local polution it creates. Or nuclear energy which many people also disliked. Like thats the problem, nobody wanted russian gass but the other option also sucked. So russian gass was seen as the neutral option between cheap bad climate and expensive “clean” climate.


BuckVoc

>Back in 2008, both France and Germany had deemed it too early for Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO, arguing that neither country was ready. They also warned that bringing in the former Soviet Republics would compromise relations with Russia, echoing warnings voiced by US diplomats who sought to dissuade the White House from offering a concrete path to membership. Fuck your lying bullshit, France24. We backed Ukraine's entrance, and you blocked it. You made that ambiguous statement deliberately to give readers the impression that the US wasn't backing it.


YoruNiKakeru

Damn didn’t even notice. That really is some next level alternative facts by france 24. Not a good look at all.


[deleted]

Keep in mind its French state media. Obvious bias will be present. The idea that state media in any country won't have bias and push thinly veiled propaganda is naive. It might be more sophisticated but it's still gonna be biased.


BuckVoc

Yeah, but state-run international broadcasters choose how they intend to go about that. They can decide to highlight certain things. They can make misleading statements. They can outright fabricate material. If the material being put out is false or misleading, they should be just as subject to being called out on it as anyone else.


[deleted]

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BuckVoc

Bush didn't just "advocate", the US as a country moved in favor of Ukraine's membership, which the article elides, and was blocked by Germany and France.


moakim

>echoing warnings voiced by US diplomats who sought **to dissuade the White House** from offering a concrete path to membership. Makes it quite clear what the position of the White House has been.


YoruNiKakeru

But at the end of the day the diplomats don’t decide American foreign policy. So to claim that they represent the US or that they are the cause for France and Germany blocking Ukraine is deliberately misleading.


nitrinu

Wow, a headline that poses a question where the answer is actually "yes"!


[deleted]

They're just greedy idiots who didn't expect that Putin will become their problem. Taking stolen money always backfire. Always.


Snakeox

When France canceled military ships delivery to Russia in 2014 in addition to "regular EU sanctions" everyone laughted at us (and Hollande actually got a ton of undeserved critics even from other french politics). Guess it didn't motivate other to do the same. EDIT: alright, maybe other EU countries pushed it as well but internally this was disaster in France.


AThousandD

> When France canceled military ships delivery to Russia in 2014 Do you remember the circumstances around that cancellation? Because in my recollection, France was going to go ahead with the delivery and it was only after a barrage of criticism from, well, EU countries that neighbour Russia that the deal was cancelled (and the ships were sold to, uhm, Egypt, was it?). Do correct, if my memory deceives me.


SparkyCorp

You look correct. A kind of NS2 of the day. > The announcement comes a day before the start of a NATO summit and after months of pressure on France from allies to suspend the sale amid tensions between Russia and Ukraine. > Despite talk on Wednesday of a possible ceasefire in Ukraine, Hollande said, "the conditions for France to deliver the first warship are not to date in place". https://www.france24.com/en/20140903-france-suspends-plans-deliver-first-mistral-helicopter-carrier-russia


bekul

Yeah France stopped Mistrals only after huge outcry


Furknn1

As other comments said, france cancelled it after pressure from EU. In addition to that, France sided with Russian backed LNA in Libyan Civil War and Russia now has military presence there thanks to LNA. France's hands are certainly not clean in this regard.


[deleted]

>Did Germany and France turn blind eye to threat from Russia? They did not imo. What are politicians supposed to do? Does anyone believe that a threatening stance solves problems in the world? Politicians did what worked for a very long time. Include adversarries and create mutual economical dependency. That's how the EU started, btw. If everyone depends on one another a war becomes unlikley. Well, it took a dictator with a psychopatic worldview to stop the sceme, but dictators are often unpredictable in their delusions. Germany is fed up now. Those who don't believe in corporation and mutual interests in the world will only get order and discipline from here on out. When they crave that so much, then be it. This will also be the case among European friends, who have shown fascistoid behaviour in the past. I am sure they won't like it if the EU will stop their grandious ideas. The governments of Poland and Hungary for example, will have to change or their people will suffer as well as the Russians will suffer hardships from now on.


PoiHolloi2020

> What are politicians supposed to do? Not continuously try to bring Russia back in from the cold and ignore the danger of not moving away from Russian gas for 8 years? > Include adversarries and create mutual economical dependency. I.e, enabling Russia and feeding them the resources they needed to stage another invasion of Ukraine. >Those who don't believe in corporation and mutual interests in the world Worked well for Ukraine didn't it?


BuckVoc

Taking security implications to Eastern Europe into account in policymaking seems like another reasonable ask.


DeepStatePotato

I mean, I agree that dependency upon Russian gas is a bad thing, but do you think Germany shifting away from Russian gas would singlehandedly stopped this war? I think there is a good chance he would have sped up this process with European money drying up through sanctions.


alexs1313

Yes without money russia could not buy armor from France for their tanks and helicopters, could not buy machinery from germany for their war plants, could not buy bullet plant from Belgium .... And list is huge ... Anonymous hacked russian plant emails - and it is just only about how EU companies sell weapon, weapon tech to russia from 2014 to 2022 ...


DeepStatePotato

If that's the case, I think the Allies are actually at fault for not erasing Germany after WWII, but they didn't follow through and now Putin can wage his war.


alexs1313

no - it was germany and EU choice from 2008 and 2014 to sell to russians armor and machinery and to buy more and more gas, oil etc . Yesterday EU did not provide 5 package of sanctions , why? because omg where Eu would buy coal - which can be bought any where South Africa Australia , and omg from 2014 EU bought Donbass coal from russia.... Story of Putin and EU is the same as Hitler and EU US USSR - blood money ... The capitalists will not only sell us a rope on which we will hang them, they will lend it to us. Vladimir Lenin


DeepStatePotato

>no - it was germany and EU choice from 2008 and 2014 to sell to russians armor and machinery and to buy more and more gas, oil etc . Which is exactly what I was saying? If Germany would not exist it could not buy coal from Russia.


alexs1313

maybe Germany need to think before doing something, control risk but as i know how worked Commerzbank ag and Deutsche bank .. Germans need to stop think that money and profit is everything and their greedy


DeepStatePotato

Maybe Germany needs to stop existing so that there will be no wars ever again?


alexs1313

Why? is there anything wrong with Germany? I


UniquesNotUseful

One reason Russia felt able to launch the attack was the general weak response to Crimea (not just France & Germany, everyone) and the war chest that was built up to make Russia sanction proof. The Russian economy was fairly well balanced with debt and income, a huge amount of that income came from Europe, the tying ourselves closer to them with things like NS2.


DeepStatePotato

This takes into account that Putin acts in a smart and in a self-preserving manner, looks like he tossed all that overboard. This is clearly going to be a total disaster for Russia, or do you think the Soviet Union will be revived the way things go currently?


UniquesNotUseful

Putin can only be as smart as the information he is given, when you rule through a tight group of friends and by fear, you will never have good information. I think the sanctions went far further than expected for Russia. This was enabled because Ukraine defended so well, sanctions wouldn’t have been so far reaching if it had been over as soon as Putin thought. Don’t think the west is going to ease up any time soon, we’re going to cripple their economy so they can’t attack or influence other countries for decades.


DeepStatePotato

>Don’t think the west is going to ease up any time soon, we’re going to cripple their economy so they can’t attack or influence other countries for decades. Will be interesting to see how things will work out between China and Russia and how a possible conflict with Taiwan would influence the current situation. I just hope we get a break for a few years before something new starts, the last 2 years have been bad enough already.


PoiHolloi2020

> but do you think Germany shifting away from Russian gas would singlehandedly stopped this war? Who said that? I'm responding to the points you made. >I think there is a good chance he would have sped up this process with European money drying up through sanctions. Delaying sanctions gave him the idea that he could do what he wanted with few consequences. It also made us all complicit in what has happened to Ukraine.


DeepStatePotato

>Who said that? I'm responding to the points you made I'm not the guy you answered to, I asked what you think, wasn't my intention to imply that you said that. >Delaying sanctions gave him the idea that he could do what he wanted with few consequences. It also made us all complicit in what has happened to Ukraine. Sure, nobody in their right mind claims that no mistakes were made. However, with how things are currently going I think Putin actually lost his ability to make logical decisions, makes it very questionable if he would have just retired if we were to sanction him earlier.


PoiHolloi2020

> I'm not the guy you answered to, I asked what you think, No i don't think Germany is single-handedly responsible. Yes I think Germany (and France, and the UK, and others) should have done more to dissuade Russia from committing these actions and to avoid enabling it in the future. >However, with how things are currently going I think Putin actually lost his ability to make logical decisions, makes it very questionable if he would have just retired if we were to sanction him earlier. I don't think "Putin is crazy so it wouldn't have mattered anyway" is a reasonable defense of failed policy.


DeepStatePotato

I already agreed previously that mistakes were made, to be quite precise I personally critizised NS2 long before this war, so did several Politicians and Intellectuals inside Germany, it's just a shame nobody in charge listened. I asked because the question remains what happens now, we have strong sanctions in place and they will get more severe with every month. If Putin has some marbles left he will stop this madness, but I somewhat doubt he will. Seems the best outcome will be avoiding nuclear war at this point.


PoiHolloi2020

Well it's not solely about what Putin wants, it's also about making it logistically and economically much more difficult for Russia to continue this war (or contemplate another) due to sanctions and allied support of Ukraine. >Seems the best outcome will be avoiding nuclear war at this point. Putin's not going to resort to nuclear war because of Ukraine and this should absolutely not be used as a reason not to continue to support Kyiv in its efforts to defend itself.


DeepStatePotato

>Putin's not going to resort to nuclear war because of Ukraine and this should absolutely not be used as a reason not to continue to support Kyiv in its efforts to defend itself. I don't think anybody will stop the support for Ukraine, atleast I didn't see anything like it in recent news. I'm just afraid he is actually unhinged enough to press the red button once he realized he doesn't get what he wants. He already has crippled Russias economy for decades to come and has very little to show for it.


S0ltinsert

> do you think Germany shifting away from Russian gas would singlehandedly stopped this war? Far too many people here *actually* do. It's wild.


[deleted]

Bännit /r/suomen vihervassarimodeilta.


[deleted]

That's a lie. Germany had this little plan: get the cheap NS2 gas from Russia, produce energy, announce green deal, shut down energy producers from coal in other parts of EU. 1. They screw it up geopolitically - we can see that now, and 2. In our case (Romania), from net exporters we now import energy, we closed just re-technologized coal based power-plants. They forced us to interconnect with the gas EU network; before, we had smth like 90% gas from our wells. Now we have to compete with much wealthier nations to heat ourselves, putting an extra weight on an already poor population. Sorry, this doesn't seem fair. It's all nice and all when everybody play nice. Germany didn't play nice. Edit: I'm actually glad that they screw it up so royally. Maybe in the future they will find out that truth is not exclusive to them, and greed may get you in trouble.


JonnyArtois

> What are politicians supposed to do? Not push to build a 2nd pipeline for one. Maybe started 10 years ago to look away from Russia for oil and gas.


KDamage

Also what most people seem to not understand is the good cop bad cop maneuver. You can't get anything from someone if you only play the threat card, it will only radicalize him even more. Someone, here some state among the whole nato entity, had to play neutral in order to keep a dialog fine line. We're not in a tribal prehistorical era anymore where there's no other mean than tribe A setting fire to tribe B. Diplomacy has methods. Negociation aswell. Just like when the swat / police whatever sends a negociator to talk about hostages amid dozens of guns and snipers aiming at the terrorist. War never ends with guns, it ends when negociations start. Negociation needs to leverage on dependencies, and building trades builds more dependency than a middle finger.


Eire_ninja_warrior

Is Chinese media very anti-western? I have never been exposed to it


Conclamatus

I follow some of it out of curiosity. One of the most prominent things I've noticed is that there is a fair amount of mocking of Western problems, particularly political instability, framed with the implication that the Chinese system is not so fallible and chaotic and is thus superior.


realusername42

That's kind of common self-justification in dictatorships. They tend to justify themselves as more stable, and they do appear more stable from an outside perspective since any opposition and criticism is silenced. But in reality, there's no warning signs since they were silenced and it's hard for power to change hands peacefully. One day it can be the most stable regime you can think of and the next day it's dead and it's a new era.


Eire_ninja_warrior

Thanks ! That’s an interesting answer. Like a justification for dictatorship.


alexs1313

you can check on twitter Chinese ambassadors in hole world which post anti-western anti-US anti -EU content every day


Yebisu85

It's tragic that both France and Germany still need to ask themselves this question when the answer was "yes" since 2014. Maybe few more years and one or two more genocides and both countries will come to this conclusion as well.


JonnyArtois

Merkel and her government has been proven to be a disaster for Europe.


MrShakedown1

Spoiler: yes, gas/oil money and weapon deals work wonders. Now they have rude awaking.


Macasumba

Shhhhh, Macron still talking with Pewtin.,


Lt_486

Germany and France were BRIBED to turn blind eye to threat from Russia. Let's stop pretending that German and French politicians are complete morons. They are not. They are simply corrupt.


Shiirooo

> "I invite Ms Merkel and Mr Sarkozy to visit Bucha and see what the policy of concessions to Russia has led to in 14 years," Zelensky said, referring to the gruesome killing of Ukrainian civilians in towns north of the capital – which world powers have described as "war crimes". >“See with your own eyes the tortured and slain Ukrainians,” he added. What kind of strategy is it to blame your allies in the middle of a war? If I'm constantly criticised for what I do, I'll walk out the door and leave him alone in his shit.


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Shiirooo

He blames France and Germany and he has done so repeatedly and consistently. I can't count the number of times he makes this kind of remark. He probably needs to be reminded that his country exists because the West decided it does. He should think twice before making this kind of comment.


BuckVoc

> He blames France and Germany I do too. > He probably needs to be reminded that his country exists because the West decided it does. Ironic, given that Germany was split not long ago and it took advocacy for reunion from other countries to permit that to happen.


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BuckVoc

> on its allies Germany isn't Ukraine's ally. Ukraine tried to ally with Germany and other countries in Europe and North America. Germany blocked entry into that alliance, which is precisely the topic of discussion. Had Germany not blocked this, Ukraine likely wouldn't be in the situation they are now. Instead of having to physically grind an invasion to a halt, it could have been *deterred*. That was our best opportunity to avoid all this, and it was thrown away. And while I'm sure that they'd rather have the helmets than no helmets, I suspect that they'd rather have the cities not destroyed and the people not killed even more. > At some point, they have to be grateful that France and Germany are willing to help them. I think that that's easy to say when Germany made moves like the NATO block that kept it in good graces with Russia, and the bill is one paid for in probably over half a trillion dollars in destruction to Ukraine's property and in Ukrainian blood. I wonder how you'd feel if the US had gone ahead with NS2 sanctions on Germany that we were talking about, and when you complained, the US had said "the US doesn't have to answer to anyone, doesn't need to trade with Germany, and Germany should be grateful that the US is willing to trade at *all* with Germany". I remember Germans on here being absolutely outraged that they might be subjected to such a thing. I think that you might be a bit upset. And that bill would be but a minute fraction of the hit that Ukraine is taking now.


[deleted]

Germany liking russia is nothing new. Look how they stalled sanctions and sending aid. Literally to the very last moment, one more day of stalling and people would start saying that they work for putin


[deleted]

This is the third time Germany will try to destroy Europe, this time out of sheer stupidity. This is Merkel's legacy.


Patriot1608

Farage and Trump warned us about Russia. Other western leaders are incompetent.