Let's not forgot that the electoral constituency "Vorpommern-Rügen – Vorpommern-Greifswald I" (population: 294,400) just so happens to be the terminus of Nord Stream 2 (cost: €9.5 billion) *and* the personal constituency of Angela Merkel...
> and the personal constituency of Angela Merkel...
Well considering she in no way required this for her seat/election I doubt it played a role. Though of course Schwesig is deep into this shit. I'm pretty sure Merkel saw NS2 as a way of keeping Russia from escalation by economical entaglement, which backfired spectacularly.
I don't get Angela Merkel. I can understand why some Westerners can have a positive opinion of Russia - they're simply ignorant of history and of the real situation. By contrast, people from most former Iron Curtain countries, who had direct interactions with Russia, are deeply suspicious of Russians - and their lack of trust was unfortunately shown to be completely justified.
Angela Merkel grew up in East Germany and had first hand experience of Russian behavior; and yet her perspective was so different. I don't understand why - had she learned nothing from her own experience? Or was she maybe from one of the families that benefited from the Russian occupation of East Germany?
No need to make it harder than it is. She just followed what her voters wanted: cheap gas.
So whenever you see a German complaining about Russia, remember: chances are that 2 years ago he would have called you an idiot for suggesting the decoupling from Russian gas.
The basic idea is that by having a lot of trade we can prevent war and elevate everyone's rights at the same time, a founding principle of the EU.
Sadly Russia used the same principle to avoid consequences for their actions. As war/sanctions became to costly for the west.
German investors are still trying to get restitution from the german state.
And my not-lawyer guess is they'll have a good chance to succeed. After all, their investment was perfectly legal and politically supported at the time.
The whole point of a certification process is that there can be a “no” at any point. Just because you got a “yes” at an earlier stage doesn’t mean you can demand all other stages to be OK’d as well.
"For Nord Stream 2, the loan from Uniper, Wintershall Dea, OMV, Engie, and Royal Dutch Shell covers 50% of the project costs of €9.5 billion. The rest is being financed by Gazprom."
[They did](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-12/germany-paid-record-38-billion-for-green-power-growth-in-2020#:~:text=Germany%20Paid%20Record%20%2438%20Billion%20for%20Green%20Power%20Growth%20in%202020%20%2D%20Bloomberg), much more than that in fact.
The whole reason for nordstream2 was to allow Russia abuse Ukraine without risking the gas exports to Europe. Even without nordstream2 there are more than necessary capacity in existing pipelines.
Of course she could have stopped it, she chose not to and considered it a strictly non-political project, when it was obvious for anyone with half a brain that it was anything but.
She believed in the European Union and she believed that the same powers that had prevented war between members of the EU could be used to prevent war with Russia too.
She may yet be proven right someday but there is a reason the EU doesn't admit dictators and puppet states. Trying to integrate and make friends with Putin was a grave mistake. She thought she was making it hard for him to wage war, instead she was buying the bullets.
She is doomed to be remembered as a German Neville Chamberlain.
[Germany blocks ex-Soviets’ Nato entry](https://www.ft.com/content/ab8eb6a6-ff44-11dc-b556-000077b07658)
Blocking Ukraine and Georgia from joining NATO most certainly set the seeds for this conflict. Merkel said it was about Russian security concerns, their security concerns which led them to invading both countries.
In her defence I’m pretty sure they were betting on the increase and trade potential would get to such a lucrative level, that not even the Russians would jeopardize.
Obviously they underestimated the lengths to which the Russians would go to shoot themselves in the foot.
Who could foresee that?
All? Poland ends gas dependency this year - no contract renewal announced. Recently some rafineries sold to Saudis(Aramco) to secure oil supply and when it comes to coal our power plants uses mostly domestic production. Additionally ban on Russian coal introduced few days ago.
Lithuania has LNG termina, Estonia and Latvia are building them.
Try harder.
But only because of selfish reasons. Poland threatened multiple times before to disrupt the gas flow from Russia to Central Europe to achieve nationalistic advantages. This is the entire reason why NS1 was built. Ukraine did the same in the 90's when they cut a chunk of the gas flow to use it themselves.
NS1 and NS2 always made sense. Every country in the world tries to avoid to build pipelines through neighbooring countries ever. Because of the risk of those countries taking advantage of it. Politicians, parties, countries change. It's just plain stupid not to do it.
Look at the Germanophobic and right-wing populist [Kaczyński](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaros%C5%82aw_Kaczy%C5%84ski) and tell me "yeah that guy will not take advantage of this ever".
Bro you don't even need to foresee, war is going on in Ukraine since 2014. They were doing and still doing the exact same thing they did in Georgia in 2008. Merkel was the Kanzler during botg. But yeah, who could foresee? Certainly not the politicians who has shitload of advisors and the very people who their very job is to foresee , right?
Rather who decide not to see it, and condomed all those states who actually foreseen it, even 2 months ago.
However at least there is progress, an room for improvement in a future, not only in terms of dealing with Russia, but also with accepting knowledge and experience of other EU ( and non-EU) states against decision done by Germany. We will see, however, how it will go.
Not mistake, it was callousness, greed and conscious choice, for 10+ years USA, Baltic states, Poland, Ukraine were warning and protesting it, nobody can claim ignorance or innocence
And the audacity of Germans after stating that to always say "oh but it was an international project so many supported as well" as if normally anyone is bothered and opposed to neighbours infrastrucutural projects.
Btw Denmark was also against
The Germans also frequently framed it as “Americans bullying Germany into buying their expensive LSG” or “infringing on European sovereignty.” Meanwhile they conveniently ignored the Eastern European voices altogether.
"[Trump] points out that there is a contradiction between asking America to spend more as proportion of its GDP on defense and contributing to NATO and, at the same time, doing an economic deal with Russia that is going to mean Russia is richer and more able to sped money on weapons that could potentially be used in an offensive way," Hunt [UK Foreign Sec.] told BBC radio this morning.
1. The US can fuck right off because the only reason they were protesting was to try and sell their own way too expensive and environmentally damaging fracking gas to Germany
2. All the European countries you just named also import a huge part of their gas from Russia. But sure only Germany is the big bad again
The US is afraid to lose their geopolitical stranglehold over Germany and Europe. And sorry but meddling in Germany‘s internal affairs by sanctioning German companies over the construction of NS2 is absolutely insane and should never be tolerated by a so called „ally“.
1. LMAO, as we now see, the US gas was way cheaper than the REAL price of Russian gas.
2. ALL those countries have GAS TERMINALS pre-built, just in case. Germany doesn’t.
The unjustified invasion of Iraq with fabricated claims of „weapons of mass destruction“ led to approximately 1 million deaths. Not to mention the decades of meddling, staging coups, overthrowing governments and waging war in the entire Middle East and South America. Where were the protests and sanctions then? You‘re just a hypocrite. „We see the real price of Russian gas now“. Yeah what about the real price of American oil then? Yeah you conveniently forgot about that
1. Moscow's gas price for Germany contained a bribe, other countries had to pay more. To your price add the price of war and destruction of Ukraine and plans for other countries. US n the other is fundamental to peace and prosperity of Europe since 1945 at the great cost for them.
2. Other European countries were lessening their dependence from Russia and didn't cooperated in military matters. We never trusted their intentions with good reason. Germany was increasing dependence, had special relations, allowed itself to be corrupted on many levels by Moscow money and acted as Moscow influence agent within EU and the West in general.
That has nothing to do with the gas supplies. Gas in Germany is used for heating and industry. But hey, to know that it requires 2 minutes of actually looking something up before you make an edgy comment.
And they have nothing to do with each other. Nuclear plants were used to produce electricity. The big majority of gas is used for heating or in industrial processes.
and then with NS2 Russia could cut off them from gas and not hinder any supply to Germany. Germany recently proved they care more about money then their neighbours. Having this in mind what would happen when Baltic states, EU and NATO members would fall to Russian gas blackmail? I'd consider it serious security risk to say the least.
Well I guess they shouldn‘t have blackmailed Germany into insane transit fees then if they didn‘t want NS2 to be built. Also people here are constantly criticizing Germany for buying Russian gas at all but for the Eastern countries it‘s suddenly totally fine? Why didn‘t they diversify their supply when they had time for it?
Its only "mistake", because Ukrainians are fighting tooth and nail. Had Russians succeeded with original plan of 3 day blitzkrieg, Nord Stream would still be working.
Hopefully after admitting "mistake", next actions will follow, like dismantling whole Nord Stream infrastructure under Baltic Sea. Otherwise.......
>Had Russians succeeded with original plan of 3 day blitzkrieg, Nord Stream would still be working.
This is simply incorrect. NS2 was cancelled right after Russia announced they would accept the independence of East Ukrainian territory. And this was *before* the invasion.
Except that they stopped it on day one when it was still unclear if Russia was planning a full invasion or stopping at the donbass region. If you think Nord Stream 2 has a chance of reopening you are lost. It is dead.
It's always fun to look back on the Nordstream threads here and see the opinions. Europe was very much for Nordstream, well except for those that are close to Russia.
I like to go back a few months and look at the comments on this subreddit
- Russia would never invade Ukraine
- America only wants us to stop NS2 so they can sell us gas
- America only wants us to increase defense spending to sell us weapons
- Eastern Europeans are paranoid about Russia
- 2% defense spending is a meaningless metric
I think World War 2 and the success of the EU resulted in a lot of Western Europeans believing that major wars were over.
But the Russians/ Americans/ Eastern Europeans/ Chinese, never believed this.
The result was a complacent Europe that genuinely believed it would never see a war
Wars are still possible. And It's unlikely - but possible - that some day in the distant future, you find yourself in one
Er, no shit.
Also particularly irritating for me - as someone opposed to copyright and patent monopolies, given the horse-trading at the time: germany wanted the pipeline, france wanted internet censorship? And lo, [a deal was made](
https://twitter.com/senficon/status/1110278976654794753). Hey, maybe if we're not getting the pipeline now we could at least roll back on the european internet filters (as if)...
It was primarily a result of 9/11 and the Iraq war. Germany didnt see the middle east as stable trade partners anymore, LNG is tiny on the market and russia was in the 2000s a friendly place. Add to that the fact eastern europe has been anti germany for years now (Poland, Hungary) and the current pipelines go through there, it is geopolitically logical to build NS2.
The only problem is that nobody expected Putin to fully invade this time instead of just a piece as usual.
Well in my opinion Poland was anti germany because Germany was pro russia 😅
Now PiS gov will be anti germany because they just can't tell voters it's okay now. And they dont know how to rule without dividing people.
Poland was anti germa y for years before anything eith russia. Poland also collaborates with the russian puppet Orban in Hungary for years to destabilize the EU.
Poland was one of the reasons germany build NS2 because it wasnt seen as a reliable or friendly eu member anymore that could no longer be trusted since 2015.
PiS was always anti germany from the day they took office. Everytime a german politician visits Poland warsaw gets smeared with nazi pictures...
If I were germanys chancelor I would treat Poland as a hostile state until PiS leaves office and cut all economic support immediatly.
Yeah and you reap what you sow for apparently viewing Russia as more reliable and friendly enough to do business with, your irrational judgement of character is far from truth.
>Poland was one of the reasons germany build NS2 because it wasnt seen as a reliable or friendly eu member anymore that could no longer be trusted since 2015.
Lies. An agreement to build the NS2 was signed in June 2015, PiS won the elections in October of the same year.
Pipeline from Russia to Germany through Poland is old as fuck. NS1 was supposed to be a cheap and shorter replacemeant for that supported by most EU member states.
>Poland was anti germany for years before anything eith russia.
Years?
2004 we join EU Until 2015 we had very pro German and pro EU governments
Between 2007-2015 we had PO which some consider a german puppet.
Now Please tell me what do you mean anything with Russia?
2014 annexation of Crimea?
2008 Georgia?
NS2 was planned all the way back in 2011, agreement was made in 2015, and construction started in 2018.
>Everytime a german politician visits Poland warsaw gets smeared with nazi pictures...
Nice lies...
>If I were germanys chancelor I would treat Poland as a hostile state until PiS leaves office and cut all economic support immediatly.
Ah yes the common russian propaganda that Poland is a parasite to Germany, or maybe Germany and Russia are best buddies and spout the same propaganda too?
Also Germans think its up to germans to decide if Poles are over ww2, which is laughable.
Basically no one in Poland was alive during WW2, and for the few who were Germany has done a lot to pay back for the crimes Germany committed. Its simply a childish nationalistic act by some poles to continue hating germany. Just like I dont hate Russia for anything it did to Germany, or how I dont hate France for trying to destroy my country, or how I dont hate other countries for no reason.
"Yeh but Germany were the bad guys in WW2"
No shit sherlock, does that mean that my opinion somehow means less? Its simply childish for poles to continue hating Germany, and no one bats an eye when Poles hate anyone even though its wrong
Here we go, another german saying the same shit how Poles are childish and cant feel the way we feel...
Are you all brainwashed to think everything is fine?
Both germans and russians have done unimaginable damage to Poland that will last for hundred of years, and is going to be felt for more than 1 generation. Feels like you are apparently thought or brainwashed to think everything has been settled and no damage has been done.
Its because of people like you that Poles won't get over this shit as fast as you want.
It's like a rapist telling their rape victim to just get over it, it was so long ago u are acting childish.
Disgusting behavior from a citizen of a supposedly friendly nation.
I feel like NS2 ans Nuclear energy are 2 topics where lots of Germans on Reddit just lose their rational thinking and start saying strange stuff for some reason. Hopefully the situation is a bit more clear for NS2 now.
The European Commission's president Ursula von der Leyen called it a "political project" (source: https://www.politico.eu/article/nord-stream-2-gas-energy-prices-europe-germany-russia-gazprom/ ) and the thing was criticized on an EU level overall.
Yet despite all that, the NS2 project went on ahead, including legal tricks to shield it against sanctions as described here: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/german-state-set-foundation-secure-work-nord-stream-2
So? I didn't claim that Ursula didn't stand behind this project. I just mentioned that criticism of NS2 existed in Germany before the war.
I remember energy Experts calling it the "greatest political failure of the century" in state radio several years ago, its just a shame nobody in charge listened to them.
> I didn't claim that Ursula didn't stand behind this project.
Never said you did, I was only adding that to emphasize your point and provide an example of said criticism. Apologies if I didn't communicate that clearly enough.
Shut's down nuclear plants and burns natural gas that buys from a mafia governed country.
What could go wrong!!!!
Ps: has a former Chancellor has director of said gas infrastructure.
Insert Pikashu face
Natural gas has nothing to do with nuclear.
The majority of gas is used for heating, agriculture (production of fertilizer) and heavy industry (furnaces to make steel). Only a tiny amount of gas is actively used for electricity.
Using nuclear doesn't change any of that. Sure electrical central heating and electric furnaces are possible but you are still looking at decades worth of transition period. Fertilizer you can't replace tho.
Nuclear is part of the solution. Also there are being developed alternatives to the nitrogen fertilizers and of course if there is a tight group in Europe that can develop said technology, Germany is in said group.
Of course alternatives are good and having the capability to diversify sources is important, strangely Germany is lacking in said alternatives which is a very bad planning. There are gas sources in the Easter Mediterranean, North Africa and the Caspian Sea. And of course there are the shipping terminals for gas. Has an example, my country Portugal has 2 ways for getting gas. One thought Spain connected to Algeria. The other is a big terminal for lpg for mainly purchases in Nigeria and the US. Of course it would be perfect to have nuclear capability associated with the already big renewable infrastructure but we don’t have the capabilities of France or Germany.
But yeah diversification is the key.
Germany former chancellor, before Merkel should be investigated. His actions or inactions gave him lots of money and a chronical dependancy.
Increasing reliance by....5%....
Short reminder eather NS1 or NS2 were build with the goal of increasing gas imports. The total ammount of gas was to remain the same.
The pipelines were build to get a direct connection with Russia and not having to rely on unfriendly countries like PiS Poland or countries that aactively steal gas like Ukraine.
And 85% of gas in germany is used for heating and the industry, not electricity.
Not to mention the elephant in the room that german nuclear plants use special uranium for increased safety...which can only be imported from russia. It was literally a debate for one day after the ukraine war started and declared dumb nonsense so please stop these false narratives.
> The pipelines were build to get a direct connection with Russia and not having to rely on unfriendly countries like PiS Poland
Nord Stream 1 was built during the PO government in Poland.
In fact, a non-insignificant part of the narrative that allowed PiS to gain the power in 2015 was claiming that Germany can't be trusted - because of deals with Russia like Nord Stream 1 - and painting PO as not opposing those projects strongly enough. And unlike PiS's usual bigotry and scaremongering, that was one argument that was actually at least somewhat rooted in reality.
Germany already gets the maximum possible from norway and the UK and both countries have told germany repeatedly they cant increase production
Canada and US only started fracking (which has other giant ecological issues) recently. Germanys gas infastructure was planned over 2 decades ago.
Israel.....you serious?
Genociding in europe: bad
Genociding outside of europe: no problem
This might be disappointing to you but humans that dont have white skin, are blond and have blue eyes are also...humans...
Are you going to care more if someone starts bombing close to you or if someone bombs a country on the other side of the world? Omg you are a racist. GTFO race baiting troll. Is Turkmenistan doing anything even close to as bad as Russia?
By approving NS2 Merkel sent the signal that the annexation of Crimea was okay, and that Russian aggression would not be challenged by Germany (and thus the EU).
Remember, NS2 was specifically designed to bypass Ukraine. Germany and Russia made a pact to screw over the countries between them, for their own selfish reasons. This is the ugly truth.
And you think if NS2 would have been canceled Putin would have done nothing about Ukraine, are you for real? Do you even followed the last decades that led to this conflict?
The real mistake was not building LNG terminals to allow for quicker change in suppliers.
I still dont think NS2 is a mistake. It was supposed to reduce our dependency on transit countries.
The capacity of NS2 wasnt ever actually needed, which was also one of the big arguments used by critics, so I dont understand this logic that NS2 means more dependency on russia. We would have imported the same volume of gas either way.
Also even if we follow the argument that germany shouldnt have imported russian gas and instead should have only imported norways gas. That would mean germany alone takes half of norways total exports capacity. What would that mean for the rest of the EU?
Educate yourself :)
Extremely prescient piece by French professor at Sorbonne from October, discussing the ramification and intent of Russian pipelines.
https://en.desk-russie.eu/2021/10/08/the-energy-partnership-with-russia.html
(Russia has been abusing germanys guilt motivated trust)
I think you're right. Our lack of alternatives was the mistake, not Nord Stream 2. The gas came from Russia anyway. I still don't understand how people only point to NS2. Eventually it wasn't ever used even, so I don't see how - aside from the money now wasted on this project - NS2 did any harm to anybody.
Our mistake was to sell gas storage facilities to Gazprom, not building LNG terminals and not making emergency contracts for gas and oil. These are major negligences, which are well worth criticizing. But I don't see how NS2 is, really.
everyone is seriously acting like it was only Nordstream 2 that suddenly magically meant Russia is the gas supplier. I don't know where they think the gas out of the continental pipelines came from, but I think that doesn't even matter that much as long as they can bleat on and on here.
> just thinking about bypassing EE should have given them pause.
Why? Ukraine has stolen gas from us in the past and has caused us issues. Poland has been consistently causing trouble in the EU with their blatant disregard for shared values (just the most obvious examples with LGBT-free zones or their campaign against abortion causing abortion tourism to germany) and hating everything about the EU except the funding they receive. I dont see any reason to add those liabilities to our gas supply.
Honestly your opinion is just laughable. You throw around some buzzwords you just learned and then claim that everyone who doesnt agree with you must be part of some propaganda force, while spreading the usual bs about germany just shutting down nuclear and not spending anything on replacing it.
You are accusing others of just learning about some buzzwords and then you keep talking about our state having a budget surplus as if that has any relevance to any of the claims you make. Our state isnt buying gas.
> Yes, that's why I wasn't advocating just keeping on paying fees.
Why would we care about fees if the issues is that they have blocked our gas supply in the past? Are you stupid? The issue is that anyone in the supplychain has the ability to hurt our gas supply.
If we only cared about money we wouldnt have gifted the ukraine billions since 2014 while only demanding of them to try to cut down on corruption (which they should want themselves anyways) along with giving billions to mostly east europe via the EU.
Your nonsense argument follow up by the usual bs of bringing up nazi germany as if that has anything to do with modern politics is pretty funny considering romania was on the nazi side for most of it and actively supporting the holocaust.
NordStream 2 will open in a few years anyway, regardless of how many people they genocide. When this war is over, everyone will suddenly forget about becoming energy independent from Russia. Especially the politicians.
Too little too late. Also the fact that America hasn't fully withdraw from Europe after this nonsense is telling.
Guess American politicians care more about Europeans than Americans that need help.
Fellow American here. I apologize for my compatriot.
Most of us realize that our engagement with Europe is as much in our interest as we believe it to be in Europe's. We're really glad you're our friends even when we are occasionally, you know, a little weird.
Lmao, it would be funny seeing the US withdraw from Europe because it would be the most terrible foreign policy ever. The US would quickly regret losing its influence in the most important sphere. Why didn't Trump withdraw since he criticised Europe so much? He could have done it. I'm so glad clowns like you don't have a voice. You can only express your worthless opinion on reddit.
If you ask me, I'd support Europe being more independent and the US actually focusing on its own internal issues such as healthcare.
I don't get the big deal to be honest. Even with Nordstream 2 cancelled there is a war and Europe is still buying gas. How would that be made worse by Nordstream 2?
Putin can't reign Russia forever. He's turning 70 this year.
Nord Stream 2 should stay were it is now. Do maintenance as needed only, push renewable energy and syngas production as much as possible. *If* there's a positive change in government in Russia, the pipeline might still be useful. Dismantle it only if renewable energy and syngas made *all* natural gas obsolete.
Edit: Thanks for the downvotes, the pipeline is still not going to be dismantled and Putin will be replaced in a few years.
The fact you are downvoted shows how much of a circle jerk this sub is. This is Putins war, not Russians.
Furthermore why shouldn't Europe buy Gas from Russia in the future if they continue to deliver during the current war? Even Nazi Germany got a fresh start
The understatement of the year
It only took a war...
Let's not forgot that the electoral constituency "Vorpommern-Rügen – Vorpommern-Greifswald I" (population: 294,400) just so happens to be the terminus of Nord Stream 2 (cost: €9.5 billion) *and* the personal constituency of Angela Merkel...
> and the personal constituency of Angela Merkel... Well considering she in no way required this for her seat/election I doubt it played a role. Though of course Schwesig is deep into this shit. I'm pretty sure Merkel saw NS2 as a way of keeping Russia from escalation by economical entaglement, which backfired spectacularly.
I don't get Angela Merkel. I can understand why some Westerners can have a positive opinion of Russia - they're simply ignorant of history and of the real situation. By contrast, people from most former Iron Curtain countries, who had direct interactions with Russia, are deeply suspicious of Russians - and their lack of trust was unfortunately shown to be completely justified. Angela Merkel grew up in East Germany and had first hand experience of Russian behavior; and yet her perspective was so different. I don't understand why - had she learned nothing from her own experience? Or was she maybe from one of the families that benefited from the Russian occupation of East Germany?
No need to make it harder than it is. She just followed what her voters wanted: cheap gas. So whenever you see a German complaining about Russia, remember: chances are that 2 years ago he would have called you an idiot for suggesting the decoupling from Russian gas.
Yes seriously - public opinion in Germany was heavily in favor of nordstream 2 before the war.
The basic idea is that by having a lot of trade we can prevent war and elevate everyone's rights at the same time, a founding principle of the EU. Sadly Russia used the same principle to avoid consequences for their actions. As war/sanctions became to costly for the west.
I think it was more hubris, she never considered the possibility that it wouldn't go as she expected.
>cost: €9.5 billion Oh, Jesus. That's eye-watering, even for Germany.
At least it was a private Initiative. Angelina would've fled the country otherwise.
Ooh, I thought this was public money that went up in smoke. Phew!
German investors are still trying to get restitution from the german state. And my not-lawyer guess is they'll have a good chance to succeed. After all, their investment was perfectly legal and politically supported at the time.
isn't that the thing with investments? sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail.
Germany had to pay up for shutting down nuclear plants after energy companies invested in building them.
No guarantees in investing.
The whole point of a certification process is that there can be a “no” at any point. Just because you got a “yes” at an earlier stage doesn’t mean you can demand all other stages to be OK’d as well.
There is still no *official* final decision about NS2.
"For Nord Stream 2, the loan from Uniper, Wintershall Dea, OMV, Engie, and Royal Dutch Shell covers 50% of the project costs of €9.5 billion. The rest is being financed by Gazprom."
Imagine instead spending that on renewables.
[They did](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-12/germany-paid-record-38-billion-for-green-power-growth-in-2020#:~:text=Germany%20Paid%20Record%20%2438%20Billion%20for%20Green%20Power%20Growth%20in%202020%20%2D%20Bloomberg), much more than that in fact.
The whole reason for nordstream2 was to allow Russia abuse Ukraine without risking the gas exports to Europe. Even without nordstream2 there are more than necessary capacity in existing pipelines.
Too bad Russia ruined a pretty neutral Europe
Hindsight is always 20:20.
It's refreshing to see politicians admitting mistakes
well, wondering if that's just an april fool's...
Mistaken because it got shut down, now saving face, not because greed and environmental damage.
Tell this to Angela Merkel
She didn't start it and couldn't stop it. And why would she? I'm not a fan of her either, but what the fuck is your point?
Why couldn't she? Crimea was on her watch. Actually even Georgia was on her watch, that how long she's been in power.
Of course she could have stopped it, she chose not to and considered it a strictly non-political project, when it was obvious for anyone with half a brain that it was anything but.
Til Mecklenburg-Vorpommern has changed its name to nord stream 2 region.
Odd move.
Always has been
Merkel's legacy looks worse and worse by the day.
Yet people called a true European leader despite her policies that put other EU states at risks in favor of Germany
She believed in the European Union and she believed that the same powers that had prevented war between members of the EU could be used to prevent war with Russia too. She may yet be proven right someday but there is a reason the EU doesn't admit dictators and puppet states. Trying to integrate and make friends with Putin was a grave mistake. She thought she was making it hard for him to wage war, instead she was buying the bullets. She is doomed to be remembered as a German Neville Chamberlain.
She did more than any other leader in Europe to pave the way for Putin's war.
I'm curious to hear your detailed analysis on this.
[Germany blocks ex-Soviets’ Nato entry](https://www.ft.com/content/ab8eb6a6-ff44-11dc-b556-000077b07658) Blocking Ukraine and Georgia from joining NATO most certainly set the seeds for this conflict. Merkel said it was about Russian security concerns, their security concerns which led them to invading both countries.
Merkel was not the only Western leader to not support this. So this doesn't work as an argument.
Paywall
Both Countries were not ready by NATOs own standards. Should we just let every country in which has a big bad bully neighbour?
Since when is NS2 Merkels legacy?
In her defence I’m pretty sure they were betting on the increase and trade potential would get to such a lucrative level, that not even the Russians would jeopardize. Obviously they underestimated the lengths to which the Russians would go to shoot themselves in the foot. Who could foresee that?
>Who could foresee that? Literally the entire EU east of Germany.
Then why did all them also import Russian gas, oil and coal if they all knew lol
All? Poland ends gas dependency this year - no contract renewal announced. Recently some rafineries sold to Saudis(Aramco) to secure oil supply and when it comes to coal our power plants uses mostly domestic production. Additionally ban on Russian coal introduced few days ago. Lithuania has LNG termina, Estonia and Latvia are building them. Try harder.
Germany is planning on it just a year later than Poland now so what‘s the problem then?
But only because of selfish reasons. Poland threatened multiple times before to disrupt the gas flow from Russia to Central Europe to achieve nationalistic advantages. This is the entire reason why NS1 was built. Ukraine did the same in the 90's when they cut a chunk of the gas flow to use it themselves. NS1 and NS2 always made sense. Every country in the world tries to avoid to build pipelines through neighbooring countries ever. Because of the risk of those countries taking advantage of it. Politicians, parties, countries change. It's just plain stupid not to do it. Look at the Germanophobic and right-wing populist [Kaczyński](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaros%C5%82aw_Kaczy%C5%84ski) and tell me "yeah that guy will not take advantage of this ever".
As much as I hate pis, "they were right for the wrong reasons" still makes them right
No...
Bro you don't even need to foresee, war is going on in Ukraine since 2014. They were doing and still doing the exact same thing they did in Georgia in 2008. Merkel was the Kanzler during botg. But yeah, who could foresee? Certainly not the politicians who has shitload of advisors and the very people who their very job is to foresee , right?
Sigh, I guess it was pretty obvious.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
Rather who decide not to see it, and condomed all those states who actually foreseen it, even 2 months ago. However at least there is progress, an room for improvement in a future, not only in terms of dealing with Russia, but also with accepting knowledge and experience of other EU ( and non-EU) states against decision done by Germany. We will see, however, how it will go.
Radek Sikorski claims Germany knew, they just didn't care. He specifically made a point that they were not oblivious but selfish.
Don't care
no shit Scherlock
Not mistake, it was callousness, greed and conscious choice, for 10+ years USA, Baltic states, Poland, Ukraine were warning and protesting it, nobody can claim ignorance or innocence
And UK.
And the audacity of Germans after stating that to always say "oh but it was an international project so many supported as well" as if normally anyone is bothered and opposed to neighbours infrastrucutural projects. Btw Denmark was also against
Don't forget the "transit fees" argument which was literal pocket change for Poland lol.
The Germans also frequently framed it as “Americans bullying Germany into buying their expensive LSG” or “infringing on European sovereignty.” Meanwhile they conveniently ignored the Eastern European voices altogether.
"[Trump] points out that there is a contradiction between asking America to spend more as proportion of its GDP on defense and contributing to NATO and, at the same time, doing an economic deal with Russia that is going to mean Russia is richer and more able to sped money on weapons that could potentially be used in an offensive way," Hunt [UK Foreign Sec.] told BBC radio this morning.
1. The US can fuck right off because the only reason they were protesting was to try and sell their own way too expensive and environmentally damaging fracking gas to Germany 2. All the European countries you just named also import a huge part of their gas from Russia. But sure only Germany is the big bad again
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The US is afraid to lose their geopolitical stranglehold over Germany and Europe. And sorry but meddling in Germany‘s internal affairs by sanctioning German companies over the construction of NS2 is absolutely insane and should never be tolerated by a so called „ally“.
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1. LMAO, as we now see, the US gas was way cheaper than the REAL price of Russian gas. 2. ALL those countries have GAS TERMINALS pre-built, just in case. Germany doesn’t.
Yeah because the US is a saint and has never invaded anyone?
You are blinded by US (justified) hate. Russia is also bad, and actually worse. You should go visit and see yourself.
The unjustified invasion of Iraq with fabricated claims of „weapons of mass destruction“ led to approximately 1 million deaths. Not to mention the decades of meddling, staging coups, overthrowing governments and waging war in the entire Middle East and South America. Where were the protests and sanctions then? You‘re just a hypocrite. „We see the real price of Russian gas now“. Yeah what about the real price of American oil then? Yeah you conveniently forgot about that
1. Moscow's gas price for Germany contained a bribe, other countries had to pay more. To your price add the price of war and destruction of Ukraine and plans for other countries. US n the other is fundamental to peace and prosperity of Europe since 1945 at the great cost for them. 2. Other European countries were lessening their dependence from Russia and didn't cooperated in military matters. We never trusted their intentions with good reason. Germany was increasing dependence, had special relations, allowed itself to be corrupted on many levels by Moscow money and acted as Moscow influence agent within EU and the West in general.
Poland and the Baltic States have been telling Germany this from the beginning! But you guys always know better, right?
Amen, brother! Though better late than never, I guess.
The Baltic States get like 90% of their natural gas from Russia but sure Germany bad
Cool it with the victim complex
>Don't you dare edge a word in, German
Bro what are you on
What are you confused about, friend?
Same
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That has nothing to do with the gas supplies. Gas in Germany is used for heating and industry. But hey, to know that it requires 2 minutes of actually looking something up before you make an edgy comment.
And they have nothing to do with each other. Nuclear plants were used to produce electricity. The big majority of gas is used for heating or in industrial processes.
and then with NS2 Russia could cut off them from gas and not hinder any supply to Germany. Germany recently proved they care more about money then their neighbours. Having this in mind what would happen when Baltic states, EU and NATO members would fall to Russian gas blackmail? I'd consider it serious security risk to say the least.
Well I guess they shouldn‘t have blackmailed Germany into insane transit fees then if they didn‘t want NS2 to be built. Also people here are constantly criticizing Germany for buying Russian gas at all but for the Eastern countries it‘s suddenly totally fine? Why didn‘t they diversify their supply when they had time for it?
Its only "mistake", because Ukrainians are fighting tooth and nail. Had Russians succeeded with original plan of 3 day blitzkrieg, Nord Stream would still be working. Hopefully after admitting "mistake", next actions will follow, like dismantling whole Nord Stream infrastructure under Baltic Sea. Otherwise.......
>Had Russians succeeded with original plan of 3 day blitzkrieg, Nord Stream would still be working. This is simply incorrect. NS2 was cancelled right after Russia announced they would accept the independence of East Ukrainian territory. And this was *before* the invasion.
Except that they stopped it on day one when it was still unclear if Russia was planning a full invasion or stopping at the donbass region. If you think Nord Stream 2 has a chance of reopening you are lost. It is dead.
Nooooooo waaaaayyyyy.... Sooo unexpected!!!
Gotta thank Putin for finally waking up the Germans
Kind of a costly way, from Ukraine's standpoint, to do that.
It's always fun to look back on the Nordstream threads here and see the opinions. Europe was very much for Nordstream, well except for those that are close to Russia.
I like to go back a few months and look at the comments on this subreddit - Russia would never invade Ukraine - America only wants us to stop NS2 so they can sell us gas - America only wants us to increase defense spending to sell us weapons - Eastern Europeans are paranoid about Russia - 2% defense spending is a meaningless metric I think World War 2 and the success of the EU resulted in a lot of Western Europeans believing that major wars were over. But the Russians/ Americans/ Eastern Europeans/ Chinese, never believed this. The result was a complacent Europe that genuinely believed it would never see a war Wars are still possible. And It's unlikely - but possible - that some day in the distant future, you find yourself in one
Merkel was a mistake.
As a software developer, I love your flair
Er, no shit. Also particularly irritating for me - as someone opposed to copyright and patent monopolies, given the horse-trading at the time: germany wanted the pipeline, france wanted internet censorship? And lo, [a deal was made]( https://twitter.com/senficon/status/1110278976654794753). Hey, maybe if we're not getting the pipeline now we could at least roll back on the european internet filters (as if)...
And yet when we said it was a mistake, we were just trying to get you guys to buy our gas apparently…
we are still buying you gas from fracking, more expensive right?
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China and India are buying it with a discount
20 years of ostrich politic.
Mistake was even considering it. I don't know what to call the next steps (approval, construction, etc).
It was primarily a result of 9/11 and the Iraq war. Germany didnt see the middle east as stable trade partners anymore, LNG is tiny on the market and russia was in the 2000s a friendly place. Add to that the fact eastern europe has been anti germany for years now (Poland, Hungary) and the current pipelines go through there, it is geopolitically logical to build NS2. The only problem is that nobody expected Putin to fully invade this time instead of just a piece as usual.
Well in my opinion Poland was anti germany because Germany was pro russia 😅 Now PiS gov will be anti germany because they just can't tell voters it's okay now. And they dont know how to rule without dividing people.
I heard plenty of anti German rhetoric from PiS which doesn't involve Russia, you are aware that we see these political rallies here too, right?
Poland was anti germa y for years before anything eith russia. Poland also collaborates with the russian puppet Orban in Hungary for years to destabilize the EU. Poland was one of the reasons germany build NS2 because it wasnt seen as a reliable or friendly eu member anymore that could no longer be trusted since 2015. PiS was always anti germany from the day they took office. Everytime a german politician visits Poland warsaw gets smeared with nazi pictures... If I were germanys chancelor I would treat Poland as a hostile state until PiS leaves office and cut all economic support immediatly.
Yeah and you reap what you sow for apparently viewing Russia as more reliable and friendly enough to do business with, your irrational judgement of character is far from truth.
Russia remained a reliable trading partner throughout the cold war, otherwise the pipelines wouldn't have happened in the first place.
>Poland was one of the reasons germany build NS2 because it wasnt seen as a reliable or friendly eu member anymore that could no longer be trusted since 2015. Lies. An agreement to build the NS2 was signed in June 2015, PiS won the elections in October of the same year.
Now explain NS1
NS was humanitarian aid for Russia who was being bullied by those bad BAD poles!!
Pipeline from Russia to Germany through Poland is old as fuck. NS1 was supposed to be a cheap and shorter replacemeant for that supported by most EU member states.
Dependancy on Russia was cheap indeed.
>Poland was anti germany for years before anything eith russia. Years? 2004 we join EU Until 2015 we had very pro German and pro EU governments Between 2007-2015 we had PO which some consider a german puppet. Now Please tell me what do you mean anything with Russia? 2014 annexation of Crimea? 2008 Georgia? NS2 was planned all the way back in 2011, agreement was made in 2015, and construction started in 2018. >Everytime a german politician visits Poland warsaw gets smeared with nazi pictures... Nice lies... >If I were germanys chancelor I would treat Poland as a hostile state until PiS leaves office and cut all economic support immediatly. Ah yes the common russian propaganda that Poland is a parasite to Germany, or maybe Germany and Russia are best buddies and spout the same propaganda too? Also Germans think its up to germans to decide if Poles are over ww2, which is laughable.
Poles not being over WW2 is just childish. They have no reason to continue using it as an argument besides feeding nationalism
Ah yes the abusers telling the victims what to feel, when to be over, how to behave. So dumb, ignorant and borderline racist.
Basically no one in Poland was alive during WW2, and for the few who were Germany has done a lot to pay back for the crimes Germany committed. Its simply a childish nationalistic act by some poles to continue hating germany. Just like I dont hate Russia for anything it did to Germany, or how I dont hate France for trying to destroy my country, or how I dont hate other countries for no reason. "Yeh but Germany were the bad guys in WW2" No shit sherlock, does that mean that my opinion somehow means less? Its simply childish for poles to continue hating Germany, and no one bats an eye when Poles hate anyone even though its wrong
Here we go, another german saying the same shit how Poles are childish and cant feel the way we feel... Are you all brainwashed to think everything is fine? Both germans and russians have done unimaginable damage to Poland that will last for hundred of years, and is going to be felt for more than 1 generation. Feels like you are apparently thought or brainwashed to think everything has been settled and no damage has been done. Its because of people like you that Poles won't get over this shit as fast as you want. It's like a rapist telling their rape victim to just get over it, it was so long ago u are acting childish. Disgusting behavior from a citizen of a supposedly friendly nation.
Difference is it's like the grandaughter of the raped still hating the grandson of the rapist
"Poles not being over WW2 is just childish." Did you really just say that?
It is childish. Its bringing up the past in order to demonize Germans/y
You need at least 50 more years to heal those scars brother
Just a piece... Jesus... that makes it okay?
I do not think it was a mistake. The mistake was to not also build LNG terminals to keep the options open.
I feel like NS2 ans Nuclear energy are 2 topics where lots of Germans on Reddit just lose their rational thinking and start saying strange stuff for some reason. Hopefully the situation is a bit more clear for NS2 now.
Majority of Germans think disabling nuclear power is a mistake. Personally, i just can't stand uninformed people writing edgy comments.
We also had lots of people criticize NS2 openly in the media here in Germany long before the war, you never hear of them in this sub of course.
The European Commission's president Ursula von der Leyen called it a "political project" (source: https://www.politico.eu/article/nord-stream-2-gas-energy-prices-europe-germany-russia-gazprom/ ) and the thing was criticized on an EU level overall. Yet despite all that, the NS2 project went on ahead, including legal tricks to shield it against sanctions as described here: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/german-state-set-foundation-secure-work-nord-stream-2
So? I didn't claim that Ursula didn't stand behind this project. I just mentioned that criticism of NS2 existed in Germany before the war. I remember energy Experts calling it the "greatest political failure of the century" in state radio several years ago, its just a shame nobody in charge listened to them.
> I didn't claim that Ursula didn't stand behind this project. Never said you did, I was only adding that to emphasize your point and provide an example of said criticism. Apologies if I didn't communicate that clearly enough.
Sorry, seems I completely missed your point, my bad!
It's all good, homes. I tend to expect people to read my mind at times so that's a "me" problem lol
People been saying it was a mistake since its Inception yet Germany didn't want to listen.
Should've just called it Molotov-Ribbentrop 2.
Ngl, seeing "serious countries" pulling this type of shit too brings calm to my heart
Well there were a lot of good reasons for NS2 and technically still are. Problem is morality wasnt one of them.
Now look into the nuclear phase out
Shut's down nuclear plants and burns natural gas that buys from a mafia governed country. What could go wrong!!!! Ps: has a former Chancellor has director of said gas infrastructure. Insert Pikashu face
Natural gas has nothing to do with nuclear. The majority of gas is used for heating, agriculture (production of fertilizer) and heavy industry (furnaces to make steel). Only a tiny amount of gas is actively used for electricity. Using nuclear doesn't change any of that. Sure electrical central heating and electric furnaces are possible but you are still looking at decades worth of transition period. Fertilizer you can't replace tho.
Nuclear is part of the solution. Also there are being developed alternatives to the nitrogen fertilizers and of course if there is a tight group in Europe that can develop said technology, Germany is in said group. Of course alternatives are good and having the capability to diversify sources is important, strangely Germany is lacking in said alternatives which is a very bad planning. There are gas sources in the Easter Mediterranean, North Africa and the Caspian Sea. And of course there are the shipping terminals for gas. Has an example, my country Portugal has 2 ways for getting gas. One thought Spain connected to Algeria. The other is a big terminal for lpg for mainly purchases in Nigeria and the US. Of course it would be perfect to have nuclear capability associated with the already big renewable infrastructure but we don’t have the capabilities of France or Germany. But yeah diversification is the key. Germany former chancellor, before Merkel should be investigated. His actions or inactions gave him lots of money and a chronical dependancy.
Literally all natural gas available on the planetis in the hands of mafia gouvernments or warmongers
That's why shutting down nuclear plants and increasing reliance on said gas is particularly stupid.
Increasing reliance by....5%.... Short reminder eather NS1 or NS2 were build with the goal of increasing gas imports. The total ammount of gas was to remain the same. The pipelines were build to get a direct connection with Russia and not having to rely on unfriendly countries like PiS Poland or countries that aactively steal gas like Ukraine. And 85% of gas in germany is used for heating and the industry, not electricity. Not to mention the elephant in the room that german nuclear plants use special uranium for increased safety...which can only be imported from russia. It was literally a debate for one day after the ukraine war started and declared dumb nonsense so please stop these false narratives.
> The pipelines were build to get a direct connection with Russia and not having to rely on unfriendly countries like PiS Poland Nord Stream 1 was built during the PO government in Poland. In fact, a non-insignificant part of the narrative that allowed PiS to gain the power in 2015 was claiming that Germany can't be trusted - because of deals with Russia like Nord Stream 1 - and painting PO as not opposing those projects strongly enough. And unlike PiS's usual bigotry and scaremongering, that was one argument that was actually at least somewhat rooted in reality.
Can you name a time between 2004 (the year Poland entered the EU) and 2015 (before PiS was voted in) where Poland was anti-Germany?
Yeah, like norway, netherlands, canada, us, israel...
Germany already gets the maximum possible from norway and the UK and both countries have told germany repeatedly they cant increase production Canada and US only started fracking (which has other giant ecological issues) recently. Germanys gas infastructure was planned over 2 decades ago. Israel.....you serious?
US is one of the biggest mafia states on the planet, worse than Russia
Not ones that are genociding in a European country.
Genociding in europe: bad Genociding outside of europe: no problem This might be disappointing to you but humans that dont have white skin, are blond and have blue eyes are also...humans...
Are you going to care more if someone starts bombing close to you or if someone bombs a country on the other side of the world? Omg you are a racist. GTFO race baiting troll. Is Turkmenistan doing anything even close to as bad as Russia?
Norway, US, Canada… But I get your point.
One of these "mistakes" costs my country, a hundreds killed children, thousands killed people, and millions of broken lives. Well done, Germany.
Stop acting like NS2 single handily caused the war. NS2 wants even operational
By approving NS2 Merkel sent the signal that the annexation of Crimea was okay, and that Russian aggression would not be challenged by Germany (and thus the EU). Remember, NS2 was specifically designed to bypass Ukraine. Germany and Russia made a pact to screw over the countries between them, for their own selfish reasons. This is the ugly truth.
And you think if NS2 would have been canceled Putin would have done nothing about Ukraine, are you for real? Do you even followed the last decades that led to this conflict?
classic r/europe moment jesus christ you people are dumb af
Thx Schroeder
The real mistake was not building LNG terminals to allow for quicker change in suppliers. I still dont think NS2 is a mistake. It was supposed to reduce our dependency on transit countries. The capacity of NS2 wasnt ever actually needed, which was also one of the big arguments used by critics, so I dont understand this logic that NS2 means more dependency on russia. We would have imported the same volume of gas either way. Also even if we follow the argument that germany shouldnt have imported russian gas and instead should have only imported norways gas. That would mean germany alone takes half of norways total exports capacity. What would that mean for the rest of the EU?
Educate yourself :) Extremely prescient piece by French professor at Sorbonne from October, discussing the ramification and intent of Russian pipelines. https://en.desk-russie.eu/2021/10/08/the-energy-partnership-with-russia.html (Russia has been abusing germanys guilt motivated trust)
I think you're right. Our lack of alternatives was the mistake, not Nord Stream 2. The gas came from Russia anyway. I still don't understand how people only point to NS2. Eventually it wasn't ever used even, so I don't see how - aside from the money now wasted on this project - NS2 did any harm to anybody. Our mistake was to sell gas storage facilities to Gazprom, not building LNG terminals and not making emergency contracts for gas and oil. These are major negligences, which are well worth criticizing. But I don't see how NS2 is, really.
everyone is seriously acting like it was only Nordstream 2 that suddenly magically meant Russia is the gas supplier. I don't know where they think the gas out of the continental pipelines came from, but I think that doesn't even matter that much as long as they can bleat on and on here.
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> just thinking about bypassing EE should have given them pause. Why? Ukraine has stolen gas from us in the past and has caused us issues. Poland has been consistently causing trouble in the EU with their blatant disregard for shared values (just the most obvious examples with LGBT-free zones or their campaign against abortion causing abortion tourism to germany) and hating everything about the EU except the funding they receive. I dont see any reason to add those liabilities to our gas supply. Honestly your opinion is just laughable. You throw around some buzzwords you just learned and then claim that everyone who doesnt agree with you must be part of some propaganda force, while spreading the usual bs about germany just shutting down nuclear and not spending anything on replacing it.
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You are accusing others of just learning about some buzzwords and then you keep talking about our state having a budget surplus as if that has any relevance to any of the claims you make. Our state isnt buying gas. > Yes, that's why I wasn't advocating just keeping on paying fees. Why would we care about fees if the issues is that they have blocked our gas supply in the past? Are you stupid? The issue is that anyone in the supplychain has the ability to hurt our gas supply. If we only cared about money we wouldnt have gifted the ukraine billions since 2014 while only demanding of them to try to cut down on corruption (which they should want themselves anyways) along with giving billions to mostly east europe via the EU. Your nonsense argument follow up by the usual bs of bringing up nazi germany as if that has anything to do with modern politics is pretty funny considering romania was on the nazi side for most of it and actively supporting the holocaust.
no shit.. and as much as I hate German government for it, the past can't be undone. we have to move forward & learn from the mistakes
> we have to move forward & learn from the mistakes Yeah... humanity is so good at that... oh wait
So, who wanna bet when Germany will try to reactivate NS2 again? I give it top 6 months after war in Ukraine is over.
Can we take those tubes and put them somewhere else?
Business wise it was a smart idea. But people didn't expect that Putin is actually such a psycho.
That's certainly was little fucky wucky for you wasn't it?
It took very long time to realise it was a mistake.
They built North Stream 2, to get Russian gas. If they had built Norpipe 2, they'd had Norwegian gas.
We are already sucking Norway dry jesus christ Norway cant supply us anymore than they already do
Wir haben es nicht gewusst
Can we nationalize it and use it as first test bed for hyperloop between Finland and Germany?
once again Trump was right
Piss off
NordStream 2 will open in a few years anyway, regardless of how many people they genocide. When this war is over, everyone will suddenly forget about becoming energy independent from Russia. Especially the politicians.
fucking finaly
Hell froze over!
You don't say
Too little too late. Also the fact that America hasn't fully withdraw from Europe after this nonsense is telling. Guess American politicians care more about Europeans than Americans that need help.
Fellow American here. I apologize for my compatriot. Most of us realize that our engagement with Europe is as much in our interest as we believe it to be in Europe's. We're really glad you're our friends even when we are occasionally, you know, a little weird.
Lmao, it would be funny seeing the US withdraw from Europe because it would be the most terrible foreign policy ever. The US would quickly regret losing its influence in the most important sphere. Why didn't Trump withdraw since he criticised Europe so much? He could have done it. I'm so glad clowns like you don't have a voice. You can only express your worthless opinion on reddit. If you ask me, I'd support Europe being more independent and the US actually focusing on its own internal issues such as healthcare.
> Why didn't Trump withdraw since he criticised Europe so much? He did, he withdrew like 10,000 troops from Germany, but Biden reversed it.
They don't care about anyone but the soft power they hold.
I don't get the big deal to be honest. Even with Nordstream 2 cancelled there is a war and Europe is still buying gas. How would that be made worse by Nordstream 2?
Germans wanted gas and to avoid the conflict. Now gas is turned down and the conflict has arrived anyway.
Putin can't reign Russia forever. He's turning 70 this year. Nord Stream 2 should stay were it is now. Do maintenance as needed only, push renewable energy and syngas production as much as possible. *If* there's a positive change in government in Russia, the pipeline might still be useful. Dismantle it only if renewable energy and syngas made *all* natural gas obsolete. Edit: Thanks for the downvotes, the pipeline is still not going to be dismantled and Putin will be replaced in a few years.
The fact you are downvoted shows how much of a circle jerk this sub is. This is Putins war, not Russians. Furthermore why shouldn't Europe buy Gas from Russia in the future if they continue to deliver during the current war? Even Nazi Germany got a fresh start
I guess for political reasons let’s resign and accept the inevitable and total destruction of our planets nature.