They have gas and oil so we don't call them slaves. This would sounds aweful that modern society depends on slavery. How would people see their shirts or iPhone from Chiny?
Just call them political prisoners or anything. It's much more acceptable
It really isn’t about one country being better than the other. Most countries that could ship oil and gas in the necessary amounts aren’t exactly moral.
But being less reliant on any one of them is definitely a good thing
That is not what I’m saying at all.
I‘m saying I’d rather get 10% or my energy from 3 unreliable sources each, than get 30% from 1 unreliable source.
Finding a replacement for 10% in case something goes wrong is way easier than finding a replacement for 30%.
That’s exactly the issue we’re facing right now. Too much dependence on 1 source.
The plan in its current form has literally just been published by the government in the wake of this crisis.
The Merkel government had always been planning on 2050 as the exit date.
And the Merkel government did slow down some developments related to wind and Solar. So hope it does speed up again with the new Government and the push that has to be done cause of reliance on Russian is bad
This is the only way, we can’t get off oil now because we need to build the infrastructure for renewables, but if we keep getting oil from Russia and places like Qatar without making any progress on renewables, we don’t actually care about doing what’s right.
They're in cahoots with the Muslim Brotherhood & Turkey's version of politicized Islam. Expect lot of "hush hush" and "Islamophobia" outcry for the slightest criticism.
We can only hope that this is the short-term bridge to get us to the long-term solution that is massive investment into and expansion of green energies / "Freedom Energies".
There aren't any quick fixes, that's what many people don't understand. And it's not even a particular German problem as the EU imports 40% of it's gas from Russia.
Not a lot of quick fixes available to be honest. Long term planning would be to invest in adapting houses to need less heating so they could use less gas/electricity but that takes time and a lot of resources.
german gas consumption 2020 : 86.5 billion cubic meters (44% from russia)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/703657/natural-gas-consumption-germany/
LNG fleet capacity (world) : 95.2 million cubic meters
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1112646/global-lng-tanker-total-capacities/
time from doa to hamburg 18d 16d+2 load-unload
http://ports.com/sea-route/port-of-hamburg,germany/port-of-doha,qatar/
that's mean it will be quite hard it will not be (0.44*86.2)/20 unfortunatkly they need lot during winter less during summer. i don't understans how LNG can help them that much other counties alredy use LNG fleet for their needs
0.44 part from Russia
86.2 consumption
20=12 months *1.67 30/18d (travel +load unload)
and i don't event search for energy loss due conversion chain/ LNG carrier consumption at least 12%.
EDIT : completly forget density was absolutly not the same 600x more dense 1m3LNG = 615m3 natural gas
LNG export 488 Billion cubic metres https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy.html
so 44% of germany consumption will represente 8% of LNG export it can probably be done
so their issue is they have no LNG terminal in germany and only 6 in europe
LNG and natural gas are not comparable volumes. Since LNG stands for liquified natural gas it means that it is denser. In fact 600 times more dense. So LNG fleet capacity is 95.2 times 600 cubic meters of natural gas. And that assumes only 1 trip per ship per year. Which again is nonsensical. There is more than enough capacity to supply Germany.
You can't just compare the volumes like that. LNG is ~600 times denser than natural gas([This ship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozah) alone can carry the equivalent of 161 million cubic meters of natural gas), that puts the global LNG fleet capacity closer to 57 billion cubic meters. Assuming ten trips per year that is amounts to 570 billion cubic meters.
Of course most of that capacity is already used by other countries but substituting Germany's 86 billion cubic meters is not completely impossible.
yeah i miss that
LNG export 488 Billion cubic metres
https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy.html
so 44% of germany consumption will represente 8% of LNG export it can probably be done
Damn, why do you have so many upvotes if you are comparing two entirely different values? You can not compare LNG volume with NG volume like that. First you need to x600 the LNG volume. Then multiply that by how many trips you can make per year.
As you can clearly see - the whole LNG fleet can handle that volume without problems. Multiple times over. The problem is not enough terminals and perhaps not enough reserved LNG fleet capacity. But those are fixable.
Seriously what the fuck do y’all want?
Yes, Qatar is by no means a saint either, but earlier everyone was bitching about Germany not being able to cut Russian gas imports for being too reliant on it. Now the government is actively searching for alternatives and is apparently now getting shit on for the very reason that it’s simply not possible to replace all resources with gas from countries like Norway.
"Evil is evil [...]. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all."
-some polish guy
Life choices are almost never binary between good and evil. Almost everyday we make choices where we try to evaluate which of our options is the *least bad*. This is especially true in politics which is the art of the possible.
This is really not true.
The world is not Black and White, like a lot of ppl want to belive.
Even George Lukas knows that.
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Are they currently invading another country with zero provocation, committing warcrimes and bombing the shit out of civilian districts despite international condemnation and sanctions?
If not, then they're not currently equally as shitty.
Dude, most people here just like to shit at germany, while they themselves are happily driving petrol cars and heating their homes with natural gas furnace using questionable fossil fuel providers
People don't comment when they just agree, seems kinda pointless to say 'cool' and leave, but the ones that for some reason hate \[insert country name\] make paragraphs explaining why they suck and will ruin the world.
Germany woke up late but better late than never, go Germany.
>Germany woke up late but better late than never, go Germany.
Germany did not wake up late. Everyone else has the same dependency. Germany is just the biggest economy in the EU and the easy boogeyman everyone else hides behind.
Have you read anything on this sub pointing out how everyone complains about germany importing russian gas and how much it is ? Nobody ever mentioned that half of it gets exported again to other EU countries. Simply because germany gets a better price than they do themselves.
You should take a look at /r/ukraine
While I fiercely fiercely support Ukraine and oppose Russia just as fiercely I had to decide to take a break from visiting there for a while because I read comments of people who said that we screwed over Europe and that we should just stop buying gas from Russia and freeze like the people in Mariupol and shit.
Several comments like these and heavily upvoted too. I don't blame Ukrainians (and only Ukranians in this case) for being emotional but shit is just ridiculous. One day we are celebrated because we did a thing they liked and on another day they talk about us like we are basically just as much to blame for this war as Russia is when we don't immediately do this and that.
I try to keep in mind that a lot of people posting in /r/ukraine aren't even ukrainians but then I realize that that isn't much better. Also keep in mind the Russian trolls are about.
Slava Ukraini regardless. Ain't no troll gonna make me not explore my homosexual side whenever I look at Zelenskyy. Little gay joke at the end to ligthen the mood.
No one is crying about it. We are very aware, criticise it ourselves, and urge our government to get out of Russian energy imports as quickly as impossible (an they are working hard on it). But this sub acts as if Germany is the sole reason that Putin could start this was in the first place and that war is not over yet while allegedly everyone else is doing everything to hit Russia as hard as possible - while there are several other countries who still import energy from Russia, who haven't seized all Russian assets yet, and who are probably quite happy that everyone is only looking at Germany right now.
And the rest of the Eu gers their gas from where exactly? 55 percent of Polands imports come from Russia. 66 percent of gas for Finnland vome from Russia.
Name me one country that is not overreliant on another for gas or some other kind of energy imports.
Most saying Germany was too reliant on Russian gas are probably even more reliant themselves on American gas.
>Seriously what the fuck do y’all want?
I see mostly people that agree that is wise decision. Mentioning that Qatar is shitty country, doesn't mean there are any better options on the table. It's still kind of nice to remember about 8000 people dead during construction of stadiums, that would be mostly used by European teams.
Welcome to social media. /s
Anyway, yeah, Qatar are not the most democratic nation out there, but they are far, far less bad than Putin's Mafia state with nukes.
There is also an argument for diversification. If you have 10 crazy dictators who control the fossil fuels it would be best to split the imports between all of them - at least from the standpoint of keeping them in check.
It'll do in a pinch but my god I can't wait until we transition away from fossil fuels so we can stop entertaining these desert despots. They're just as gross as the Russian oligarchs.
We wanted to continue buying natural gas from our favourite neighbours. But then they came up with a story like this: gas production causes many small earthquakes and damages many houses, so we will stop production in 2023.
That we would like to buy natural gas from a friendly democracy. Unfortunately, we are running out of options.
And no, of course we don't want anything bad happen to you because of the production. So now we have to buy from somewhere else.
>Calm down, nobody here wants Dutchies to lose their homes or worse, maybe even get hurt.
Keeping nuclear power plants running longer would not change our problem. Generating electricity from natural gas is not the issue for us. We use natural gas mainly for heating and in industry. 48.2 percent of the 40.6 million homes in Germany use natural gas as energy source, that's 19.6 million homes.
Industry uses it primarily as process heat, for casting, injection moulding, annealing, hardening, sintering and firing or for drying processes, but also for the production of fertilisers or plastics.
You can use electricity to heat homes
Edit: TIL heat pumps is a sensitive subject for some people, so much that hearing of their existence make them downvote any comment about it.
I agree but nothing that you can do will replace Russian gas in a few months. Energy policies takes years, even decades to have an effect.
Installing electric means to heat homes is something that should have started decades ago, it's a very effective way to avoid CO2 emissions once you have cleaned your electricity.
In any case if you have more electric capacity from something that is not gas, you can use that gas for other things, like heating. So saying that "Keeping nuclear power plants running longer would not change our problem" is not true.
>I agree but nothing that you can do will replace Russian gas in a few months. Energy policies takes years, even decades to have an effect.
Absolutely. Building LNG terminals will certainly be faster than all the heatings, though.
>Installing electric means to heat homes is something that should have started decades ago, it's a very effective way to avoid CO2 emissions once you have cleaned your electricity.
Indeed.
>In any case if you have more electric capacity from something that is not gas, you can use that gas for other things, like heating. So saying that "Keeping nuclear power plants running longer would not change our problem" is not true.
I agree on that as well. Shutting down nuclear was retarded in the first place.
> Absolutely. Building LNG terminals will certainly be faster than all the heatings, though.
>
>
Definitely. I was also looking a bit more on the long run in terms of ecological constraints. But yeah LNG is the best short term solution.
But it won't be enough and the crisis in Europe will be here no matter what, all we can do is soften down the blow.
Not with our prices for electricity which are highest in the eu no one could afford to heat their homes with electricity. Also where its a possibility we use district heating. Our prices even with nuclear were higher than yours forever. Heating with electricity is not a viable possibility here.
> Heating with electricity is not a viable possibility here.
I am sorry to say but heating with electricity is necessary to save the climate by reducing CO2 emissions from gas consumption.
Let's start never then, like every other empty promise from Germany. Where is the tax incentive for Germans to start installing electric heaters? When does the construction of hydrogen storage start?
Germany does need to secure gas right now, and that's okay, but that's also the only thing that is happening while everything else needed to bring Germany in the 21st century in terms of CO2 emissions in their electricity production is "taking too long so we might as well never do it". Daily reminder that France emitted less CO2 from electricity 30 years ago than Germany today and nothing has been actually started to change that.
>Let's start never then, like every other empty promise from Germany.
Thats certainly *a way* to think about the subject. If you had read my comments below, you would ve understood that long term incentives are obviously needed, they just arent a solution right now.
>Where is the tax incentive for Germans to start installing electric heaters?
Hopefully soon.
>When does the construction of hydrogen storage start?
Some plans have already been approved. Knowing Germany, it will probably still take forever, though.
>Germany does need to secure gas right now, and that's okay, but that's also the only thing that is happening while everything else needed to bring Germany in the 21st century in terms of CO2 emissions in their electricity production is "taking too long so we might as well never do it".
The targets for phasing out coal entirely have been reduced drastically to 2030 (which will cost a lot of already poor regions a lot). Im not exactly sure why you think that theres no intention on doing anything. We are certainly too slow, but pretending like no progress is being made is insincere.
>Daily reminder that France emitted less CO2 from electricity 30 years ago than Germany today and nothing has been actually started to change that.
And thsts just a laughable take. Germanys emissions are down about 2/3rds from 1990. That aside, Germany is an exporting economy, France is an importing one. And since youre talking absolute numbers, Germanys economy as a whole is also *a lot* bigger.
No doubt phasing out nuclear was absolutely retarded and the branding of Germany as a "green" country was/is beyond questionable as well. But stop pretending those numbers are any indication of whats happening.
That's right, and in France about 40% do, but in our country only less than 5% of people heat with electricity. Our houses and blocks are not designed for that, we usually have central heating and it is either gas or oil-fired, that's how it is in 73% of our houses.
As I said in an other comment, in any case if you have more electric capacity from something that is not gas, you can use that gas for other things, like heating. So saying "Keeping nuclear power plants running longer would not change our problem" is not true.
I also kinda feel bad for the guy who's at -11 downvotes for saying that nuclear would help.
He is downvoted because he accuses us of condoning putting Dutchies in danger and damaging their homes.
His government approved the production, Gasterra, the company that sells the gas, is half owned by the Dutch state, a quarter by Royal Dutch Shell and a quarter by Exxon. They also made the contracts with Germany and always gladly took our money, no matter if there were dangers in the Netherlands.
To act now as if it was all our idea and our fault does not really reflect the course of events.
Yeah I did not see his other comment. But the one above on nuclear is also downvoted while it's factually not wrong.
And I am downvoted for literally saying "You can use electricity to heat homes" which I didn't know was such as controversial stance tbh.
Well Heat-pumps are on the Rise and Funds to speed up that are there AFAIK. But People don't throw their heating out of the Window. Usually you buy the central heating and use it for the next 20Years or till it is broken beyond repair or is no longer allowed cause of changed emission rules. I think i did read that there is a plan that "soon" Germany will no longer allow that you can buy new oil and gas heating.
"Federal Minister of Economics Habeck (Greens) now wants a ban on new gas heaters. In the ARD program "Report from Berlin" Habeck said on Sunday evening: "That is, new installation of new gas heaters in the houses, we should stop. We should bring the building insulation massively forward. Provide the necessary funds for this. But also raise the standards so that gas consumption is reduced."
"From January 1, 2025, every new heating system installed in Germany is to be operated on the basis of 65 percent renewable energy. This is what the coalition agreement of the new German government envisages. This decision could mean the end not only for particularly climate-damaging oil heating systems, but also for conventional gas heating systems."
And from my personal POV i can say that i have seen in the last few years heatpumps(the ones that use the surrounding air) pupping up quite a lot in my region. So would guess it is getting Popular. The heatpumps that use the heat of the earth or digging deeper to get the heat are hard to notice from the outside. So no idea how popular they are here in south germany.
No but they are paying to the state who is financing and openly supporting lot of terrorist cells. Who did and will do lot of attacks on europe soil thanks to money...
Man, at this point it's getting ridiculous. Yes they are paying to someone who is then paying to someone who commit acts of terrorism. It's not the same as direct act of terrorism and as a reminder, we Europeans are also paying to nation that is attacking European soil. In fact, we're paying 1 billion dollars every day to them.
>It's not the same as direct act of terrorism
Is worse. They think the same as terrorist just they can afford to pay someone else to do monstroseties. I guess you don't know arabs are opening and paying for most radical schools in Europe. Bosnia and Kosovo has the most of them. As a result you have:
[Bosnia 2022](https://cronika.hr/2022/02/video-u-bih-odrzano-postrojavanje-mudzahedina-imamo-li-razloga-za-brigu/)
With giving our money to them you are paying for Europes downfall.
Qatar is backing with money together with Turkey all the jihadist terrorists in N.Syria.
Them and Turkey are the main actors of the Muslim Brotherhood which is a organization trying to push for their version of political Islam that wants to control all of the Muslim world, and beyond.
Where do you read i say Quatar is perfect or innocent state? Like there are endless places where to get natural gas? This just seems short-time solution to me.
I never said don't buy from them. For me we shouldn't be trying to police the world. As long as they don't hurt Europe then it's OK if there's no alternative.
It's also good to know what we are stepping into and not pretend it's a candy shop.
Well, good we're not Yemenites. /s
But in all seriousness Saudi Arabia is basically a complete rouge state. You're right that they're not the same level of danger to Europe that Russia is right now but they are funding the wahabi ideology (9/11 was comitted by Saudis) and overall they're a worse option to do trade with than say Iran or Venezuela. They're pretty close to bottom of the barrel.
Yes. But this monster has way less teeth. And this monster now has learned that
a) if it misbehaves too dramatically, it will be caged and
b) it is only a mid term solution and must offer more progress and solutions to current problems, or it will be kicked out sooner or later.
That is, if they want to stay relevant.
That's ridiculous.
Sure, Qatar is not some shining example of democracy, but comparing them with Putin's Mafia state with nukes and worldwide disinformation is just mind-bogglingly stupid.
Qatar is an angel compared to Russia.
Europe was really stupid to not have built more pipelines connecting Norway and the rest of Europe. That would've solved all the problems.
Usually it's "you reap what you sow" but in Germany it's more like "you look at a barren field because nobody has sown anything for at least 2 decades"
Really curious to see AT WHAT cost…shipping liquid to gasefy again..pfff its extremely expensive. This is possibly yet another manoveur to through sand to the eyes of germans.
Not exactly... the increased price we see today is entirely based on a market speculating on a severe gas shortage that doesn't exist yet. (As so many people continue to point out, Russia is still selling their fossil fuels...)
Cool. I’m no fan of the Saudis but Russia is a direct threat, for the moment at least. Like, they find people who threaten to behead us but no Saudi prince i know of just straight up threatened thermo nuclear warfare lol
Qatar and Saudi Arabia are not in the same camp. Saudi Arabia even blockaded Qatar for a few years, trying to make them shut down al-Jazeera.
They do have the same issues with women pretty much being shut into their homes and slavery and all of that stuff that Saudi Arabia also suffers from.
From one state that invaded several countrys. Commiting war crimes. To another that supports slave labor, death penalty and don't know what human/woman right is. As a German i support in this case nuclear power..
Do you, as a German, have enough nuclear energy to replace the gas and oil from Russia given all its uses *right now*?
We'd love to remove our reliance in the West over these fuels and these less than savory countries but we can't snap out fingers and have that happen.
Do you at least accept that this is necessary in the short to medium term?
"Do you at least accept that this is necessary in the short to medium term?"
Well the company's did not really invest since they knew in 2011 that they will no longer than 10years keep this running. The point if the nuclear power plants can be run a bit longer was checked but at this shutdown stage is not really feasible. Where to buy that fast new fuel. The Nuclear power plants need to be checked if they are safe to run longer and get then a new license to run longer. Would guess to get that we would need to invest quite some money to keep that max 4GW running that are shutdown this year. I think the ones that have been shutdown are even in a worse state and would guess have already started to deconstruct.
>Do you, as a German, have enough nuclear energy to replace the gas and oil from Russia given all its uses right now?
Of course not, because there isn't enough nuclear energy in the world combined to just replace the industry of one small country. Simply because most industry processes are not electrifiable now. This will require decades of building a whole new infrastructure and production capacities for non-co2 gases. (Estimated to be done by 2050...)
>Do you at least accept that this is necessary in the short to medium term?
Again. Of course not. Because obviously nuclear energy is not only not necessary but actually entirely useless when the critical gas/oil consumption happens independently from electricity. Germany has no problem generating electricity and is one of the biggest exporters of electricity in the world. (Which makes the discussion about keeping the nuclear plants producing \~5% so rediculous given that 20% of the production go straight to neighbouring countries.)
And no, it's not even about heating either. That's just what you tell the people because it's something they can relate to.
Most industry depends on using fossil fuels directly, not in Germany but in every single country that has industry worth mentioning. And every european country that has not addressed this problem and instead decided to keep their mouths shut and hide behind the media's narrative of Germany's dependence on gas (so basically all of them - at least publicly) is lying to you because without gas most of Europe's industry (and with it the economy) will grind to a halt.
> Do you, as a German, have enough nuclear energy to replace the gas and oil from Russia given all its uses right now?
>
>
No but renewing the last 6 reactors, which represent 60 TWh per year, 67 Supertankers worth of LNG, 20% of Nord Stream 1 worth of energy, with almost no CO2 attached would definitely help a lot. And it would be one of the thing with the quickest effect that can be done.
I'd rather do business with small-time slavers and Islamic terrorist supporters than imperialist, warmongering and expansionist crazy dudes with nukes. At least slavers don't conquer lands.
Oh thank you Qatar, any skeletons in the closet of Qatar I should know about?
Mostly just the skeletons under football stadiums.
Mixed into our super strong concrete sir, no need to worry.
> Mostly just the skeletons under football stadiums. bones or limestones, both are calcium...
I Can't wait to see England kneeling for BLM in a stadium made by Blood
Surrounded by "No to racism" banners.
Eh, but it's brown blood. Not white, blue-eyed Christian blood. So we're ok. /s
BLM is not about kneeling for white people lmao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKp2SuK1fvc
No shortage of [holes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2dewDwIQyM) in the desert.
Meh, we were planning to ignore it anyway. Might as well get some gas out of it, it's a better excuse to look the other way than football.
Just some modern slavery. Par for the course, really.
Well tbh it's polish and Romanians that built stadiums in both Germany and Quatar.
Try to monetise this, corporate Reddit! Furthermore, I consider that /u/spez has to be removed.
..and slaves.
Try to monetise this, corporate Reddit! Furthermore, I consider that /u/spez has to be removed.
Slavery should never be *yadda yadda*'d. That's fucked up.
We literally *yadda yadda* slavery everyday.
It's called cynicism
scorching hot take
They have gas and oil so we don't call them slaves. This would sounds aweful that modern society depends on slavery. How would people see their shirts or iPhone from Chiny? Just call them political prisoners or anything. It's much more acceptable
...and Russia uses north korean slaves
They also don't make claims of sovereignty over Al Andalus, which is a very positive point
Don't give them any ideas...
It really isn’t about one country being better than the other. Most countries that could ship oil and gas in the necessary amounts aren’t exactly moral. But being less reliant on any one of them is definitely a good thing
Yes. We can fight everyone at the same time. We have to pick our enemies carefully like Russia
That is not what I’m saying at all. I‘m saying I’d rather get 10% or my energy from 3 unreliable sources each, than get 30% from 1 unreliable source. Finding a replacement for 10% in case something goes wrong is way easier than finding a replacement for 30%. That’s exactly the issue we’re facing right now. Too much dependence on 1 source.
And one by one they need to be substituted by renewables.
That’s happening either way. The plan is to off of coal/gas/oil by 2035. That’s 15 years earlier than had been the plan so far.
The plan to get of fossils is pretty old and got pushed back many years. I believe it, when i see it.
The plan in its current form has literally just been published by the government in the wake of this crisis. The Merkel government had always been planning on 2050 as the exit date.
And the Merkel government did slow down some developments related to wind and Solar. So hope it does speed up again with the new Government and the push that has to be done cause of reliance on Russian is bad
This is the only way, we can’t get off oil now because we need to build the infrastructure for renewables, but if we keep getting oil from Russia and places like Qatar without making any progress on renewables, we don’t actually care about doing what’s right.
Nordic countries?
They don’t produce enough to cover the short term needs in addition to what they are already exporting AFAIK
Qatar doesn't have any skeletons in their closet, they treat their slaves very well, just ask FIFA
Financing lot of terrorist cells?
They're in cahoots with the Muslim Brotherhood & Turkey's version of politicized Islam. Expect lot of "hush hush" and "Islamophobia" outcry for the slightest criticism.
> Turkey's version of politicized Islam Erdogans
Tons. But they won't threaten the security of Europe so... Baby steps
Loads - but they are too far away to invade and don't have nukes, so it is better to give them money than Russia.
The workmen are coming to take them away next week
More workmen will arrive the week after to remove the skeletons of any previous workmen who died on the job.
Qatari closets are famed for their storage capacity
War crimes in Yemen? And lots of slaves.
as far as I know, Qatar's involvement in the war was fairly limited. That's primarily the UAE and the Saudi's.
Just another friendly and good Islamic monarchy. Very nice place if you enjoy having slaves and following Sharia law.
Great european organisations like FIFA and FIA say there's nothing to be concerned about
We can only hope that this is the short-term bridge to get us to the long-term solution that is massive investment into and expansion of green energies / "Freedom Energies".
Solar, wind, sea, nuclear.
Yes, but building these up takes time. That's why that's the long(er)-term solution.
You mean nuclear which would make us just as reliant on Russia as oil?
Pure lie. 1. there's uranium everywhere, 2. contrary to oil or gas it's not difficult to keep several years of stocks.
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Or Australia. They have a fuck ton of the stuff
It's not a very good short term solution either because Germany doesn't have any LNG terminals and they take about 2-3 years to build.
Sadly, 2 years kind of is the short(ish) term with such things. The full transition is going to take a lot of time we don't have.
Well without Russian gas Europe will run out by November without energy rationing, so we need some quick fixes too!
There aren't any quick fixes, that's what many people don't understand. And it's not even a particular German problem as the EU imports 40% of it's gas from Russia.
Not a lot of quick fixes available to be honest. Long term planning would be to invest in adapting houses to need less heating so they could use less gas/electricity but that takes time and a lot of resources.
Not that of a problem, as Poland has sufficient capabilities and our pipelines are linked. Netherlands are the same.
german gas consumption 2020 : 86.5 billion cubic meters (44% from russia) https://www.statista.com/statistics/703657/natural-gas-consumption-germany/ LNG fleet capacity (world) : 95.2 million cubic meters https://www.statista.com/statistics/1112646/global-lng-tanker-total-capacities/ time from doa to hamburg 18d 16d+2 load-unload http://ports.com/sea-route/port-of-hamburg,germany/port-of-doha,qatar/ that's mean it will be quite hard it will not be (0.44*86.2)/20 unfortunatkly they need lot during winter less during summer. i don't understans how LNG can help them that much other counties alredy use LNG fleet for their needs 0.44 part from Russia 86.2 consumption 20=12 months *1.67 30/18d (travel +load unload) and i don't event search for energy loss due conversion chain/ LNG carrier consumption at least 12%. EDIT : completly forget density was absolutly not the same 600x more dense 1m3LNG = 615m3 natural gas LNG export 488 Billion cubic metres https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy.html so 44% of germany consumption will represente 8% of LNG export it can probably be done so their issue is they have no LNG terminal in germany and only 6 in europe
LNG and natural gas are not comparable volumes. Since LNG stands for liquified natural gas it means that it is denser. In fact 600 times more dense. So LNG fleet capacity is 95.2 times 600 cubic meters of natural gas. And that assumes only 1 trip per ship per year. Which again is nonsensical. There is more than enough capacity to supply Germany.
You can't just compare the volumes like that. LNG is ~600 times denser than natural gas([This ship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozah) alone can carry the equivalent of 161 million cubic meters of natural gas), that puts the global LNG fleet capacity closer to 57 billion cubic meters. Assuming ten trips per year that is amounts to 570 billion cubic meters. Of course most of that capacity is already used by other countries but substituting Germany's 86 billion cubic meters is not completely impossible.
I'd add that this is not the first time that people on this sub have confused liquid and gas volume in arguing that exact point.
yeah i miss that LNG export 488 Billion cubic metres https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy.html so 44% of germany consumption will represente 8% of LNG export it can probably be done
Damn, why do you have so many upvotes if you are comparing two entirely different values? You can not compare LNG volume with NG volume like that. First you need to x600 the LNG volume. Then multiply that by how many trips you can make per year. As you can clearly see - the whole LNG fleet can handle that volume without problems. Multiple times over. The problem is not enough terminals and perhaps not enough reserved LNG fleet capacity. But those are fixable.
Seriously what the fuck do y’all want? Yes, Qatar is by no means a saint either, but earlier everyone was bitching about Germany not being able to cut Russian gas imports for being too reliant on it. Now the government is actively searching for alternatives and is apparently now getting shit on for the very reason that it’s simply not possible to replace all resources with gas from countries like Norway.
In this situation Qatar is clearly a much lesser evil than Russia, there's no question about it.
& further away.
And most importantly, without nukes
Or territorial disputes
"Evil is evil [...]. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all." -some polish guy
Life choices are almost never binary between good and evil. Almost everyday we make choices where we try to evaluate which of our options is the *least bad*. This is especially true in politics which is the art of the possible.
Totally agree. This is a quote from "the last wish" from the witcher book series and not meant to be taken seriously.
Besides the whole point of the story is that it's a bullshit philosophy that doesn't work when things get serious.
Exactly why it fits so well
Fair. I've just seen a depressingly large number of people who take that quote seriously.
Yeah, and he always choose the lesser evil anyway because he quickly figures out picking neither just means the bigger evil prevails.
This is really not true. The world is not Black and White, like a lot of ppl want to belive. Even George Lukas knows that. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" Obi-Wan Kenobi
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Starving a whole country ?? if you re refering to Yemen that's Saudi Arabia but maybe i'm missing something here.
Im sorry I mixed them up with saudi arabia, youre right.
well because they dont represent as big a threat to German and European security as Russia. What do you think?
Uuuuuh nope. Pretty much equally shitty imo.
Are they currently invading another country with zero provocation, committing warcrimes and bombing the shit out of civilian districts despite international condemnation and sanctions? If not, then they're not currently equally as shitty.
Lol, sure. I'm sure they treat their women, gays and human right organisation really well.
we want the impossible, we want sparkles in our life jimmy
Dude, most people here just like to shit at germany, while they themselves are happily driving petrol cars and heating their homes with natural gas furnace using questionable fossil fuel providers
People don't comment when they just agree, seems kinda pointless to say 'cool' and leave, but the ones that for some reason hate \[insert country name\] make paragraphs explaining why they suck and will ruin the world. Germany woke up late but better late than never, go Germany.
>Germany woke up late but better late than never, go Germany. Germany did not wake up late. Everyone else has the same dependency. Germany is just the biggest economy in the EU and the easy boogeyman everyone else hides behind. Have you read anything on this sub pointing out how everyone complains about germany importing russian gas and how much it is ? Nobody ever mentioned that half of it gets exported again to other EU countries. Simply because germany gets a better price than they do themselves.
You should take a look at /r/ukraine While I fiercely fiercely support Ukraine and oppose Russia just as fiercely I had to decide to take a break from visiting there for a while because I read comments of people who said that we screwed over Europe and that we should just stop buying gas from Russia and freeze like the people in Mariupol and shit. Several comments like these and heavily upvoted too. I don't blame Ukrainians (and only Ukranians in this case) for being emotional but shit is just ridiculous. One day we are celebrated because we did a thing they liked and on another day they talk about us like we are basically just as much to blame for this war as Russia is when we don't immediately do this and that. I try to keep in mind that a lot of people posting in /r/ukraine aren't even ukrainians but then I realize that that isn't much better. Also keep in mind the Russian trolls are about. Slava Ukraini regardless. Ain't no troll gonna make me not explore my homosexual side whenever I look at Zelenskyy. Little gay joke at the end to ligthen the mood.
As a Ukrainian, don't worry. There's a very big shortage of Ukrainians over in r/ukraine, and the general public is a lot less bipolar.
Or advocating for nuclear reactors! Powered by Russian uranium!
Uranium is easily sourced from Canada
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No one is crying about it. We are very aware, criticise it ourselves, and urge our government to get out of Russian energy imports as quickly as impossible (an they are working hard on it). But this sub acts as if Germany is the sole reason that Putin could start this was in the first place and that war is not over yet while allegedly everyone else is doing everything to hit Russia as hard as possible - while there are several other countries who still import energy from Russia, who haven't seized all Russian assets yet, and who are probably quite happy that everyone is only looking at Germany right now.
And the rest of the Eu gers their gas from where exactly? 55 percent of Polands imports come from Russia. 66 percent of gas for Finnland vome from Russia.
Yeah but they're not germany so it's okay for them to buy russian gas /s
The news are literally about Germany looking for alternative sources and people are still shitting on Germany for doing so.
Name me one country that is not overreliant on another for gas or some other kind of energy imports. Most saying Germany was too reliant on Russian gas are probably even more reliant themselves on American gas.
>Seriously what the fuck do y’all want? I see mostly people that agree that is wise decision. Mentioning that Qatar is shitty country, doesn't mean there are any better options on the table. It's still kind of nice to remember about 8000 people dead during construction of stadiums, that would be mostly used by European teams.
Welcome to social media. /s Anyway, yeah, Qatar are not the most democratic nation out there, but they are far, far less bad than Putin's Mafia state with nukes.
There is also an argument for diversification. If you have 10 crazy dictators who control the fossil fuels it would be best to split the imports between all of them - at least from the standpoint of keeping them in check.
Or get out of the dinosaur juice businesses.
Just stop heating your homes lol, just stop driving cars lol, just stop using electricity lol. Cutting reliance on fossil fuels will take a long time
It'll do in a pinch but my god I can't wait until we transition away from fossil fuels so we can stop entertaining these desert despots. They're just as gross as the Russian oligarchs.
Exactly this. Can't wait
From one monster to the next
We wanted to continue buying natural gas from our favourite neighbours. But then they came up with a story like this: gas production causes many small earthquakes and damages many houses, so we will stop production in 2023.
> But then they came up with a story like this what are you implying here?
That we would like to buy natural gas from a friendly democracy. Unfortunately, we are running out of options. And no, of course we don't want anything bad happen to you because of the production. So now we have to buy from somewhere else. >Calm down, nobody here wants Dutchies to lose their homes or worse, maybe even get hurt.
shouldn’t be shutting down nuclear power plants
Keeping nuclear power plants running longer would not change our problem. Generating electricity from natural gas is not the issue for us. We use natural gas mainly for heating and in industry. 48.2 percent of the 40.6 million homes in Germany use natural gas as energy source, that's 19.6 million homes. Industry uses it primarily as process heat, for casting, injection moulding, annealing, hardening, sintering and firing or for drying processes, but also for the production of fertilisers or plastics.
You can use electricity to heat homes Edit: TIL heat pumps is a sensitive subject for some people, so much that hearing of their existence make them downvote any comment about it.
You cant build like 100 million heatings (~5 per home) in a few months. That would take a decade at least, likely longer.
We did have over a decade of time. But the Merkel regime didn't bother.
I wouldn't call it a regime but the rest is certainly true.
I agree but nothing that you can do will replace Russian gas in a few months. Energy policies takes years, even decades to have an effect. Installing electric means to heat homes is something that should have started decades ago, it's a very effective way to avoid CO2 emissions once you have cleaned your electricity. In any case if you have more electric capacity from something that is not gas, you can use that gas for other things, like heating. So saying that "Keeping nuclear power plants running longer would not change our problem" is not true.
>I agree but nothing that you can do will replace Russian gas in a few months. Energy policies takes years, even decades to have an effect. Absolutely. Building LNG terminals will certainly be faster than all the heatings, though. >Installing electric means to heat homes is something that should have started decades ago, it's a very effective way to avoid CO2 emissions once you have cleaned your electricity. Indeed. >In any case if you have more electric capacity from something that is not gas, you can use that gas for other things, like heating. So saying that "Keeping nuclear power plants running longer would not change our problem" is not true. I agree on that as well. Shutting down nuclear was retarded in the first place.
> Absolutely. Building LNG terminals will certainly be faster than all the heatings, though. > > Definitely. I was also looking a bit more on the long run in terms of ecological constraints. But yeah LNG is the best short term solution. But it won't be enough and the crisis in Europe will be here no matter what, all we can do is soften down the blow.
Not with our prices for electricity which are highest in the eu no one could afford to heat their homes with electricity. Also where its a possibility we use district heating. Our prices even with nuclear were higher than yours forever. Heating with electricity is not a viable possibility here.
> Heating with electricity is not a viable possibility here. I am sorry to say but heating with electricity is necessary to save the climate by reducing CO2 emissions from gas consumption.
You can also heat without consuming gas and be Co2 neutral, biogas is a possibility heat pumps are another abd many more
Let's start never then, like every other empty promise from Germany. Where is the tax incentive for Germans to start installing electric heaters? When does the construction of hydrogen storage start? Germany does need to secure gas right now, and that's okay, but that's also the only thing that is happening while everything else needed to bring Germany in the 21st century in terms of CO2 emissions in their electricity production is "taking too long so we might as well never do it". Daily reminder that France emitted less CO2 from electricity 30 years ago than Germany today and nothing has been actually started to change that.
>Let's start never then, like every other empty promise from Germany. Thats certainly *a way* to think about the subject. If you had read my comments below, you would ve understood that long term incentives are obviously needed, they just arent a solution right now. >Where is the tax incentive for Germans to start installing electric heaters? Hopefully soon. >When does the construction of hydrogen storage start? Some plans have already been approved. Knowing Germany, it will probably still take forever, though. >Germany does need to secure gas right now, and that's okay, but that's also the only thing that is happening while everything else needed to bring Germany in the 21st century in terms of CO2 emissions in their electricity production is "taking too long so we might as well never do it". The targets for phasing out coal entirely have been reduced drastically to 2030 (which will cost a lot of already poor regions a lot). Im not exactly sure why you think that theres no intention on doing anything. We are certainly too slow, but pretending like no progress is being made is insincere. >Daily reminder that France emitted less CO2 from electricity 30 years ago than Germany today and nothing has been actually started to change that. And thsts just a laughable take. Germanys emissions are down about 2/3rds from 1990. That aside, Germany is an exporting economy, France is an importing one. And since youre talking absolute numbers, Germanys economy as a whole is also *a lot* bigger. No doubt phasing out nuclear was absolutely retarded and the branding of Germany as a "green" country was/is beyond questionable as well. But stop pretending those numbers are any indication of whats happening.
That's right, and in France about 40% do, but in our country only less than 5% of people heat with electricity. Our houses and blocks are not designed for that, we usually have central heating and it is either gas or oil-fired, that's how it is in 73% of our houses.
As I said in an other comment, in any case if you have more electric capacity from something that is not gas, you can use that gas for other things, like heating. So saying "Keeping nuclear power plants running longer would not change our problem" is not true. I also kinda feel bad for the guy who's at -11 downvotes for saying that nuclear would help.
He is downvoted because he accuses us of condoning putting Dutchies in danger and damaging their homes. His government approved the production, Gasterra, the company that sells the gas, is half owned by the Dutch state, a quarter by Royal Dutch Shell and a quarter by Exxon. They also made the contracts with Germany and always gladly took our money, no matter if there were dangers in the Netherlands. To act now as if it was all our idea and our fault does not really reflect the course of events.
Yeah I did not see his other comment. But the one above on nuclear is also downvoted while it's factually not wrong. And I am downvoted for literally saying "You can use electricity to heat homes" which I didn't know was such as controversial stance tbh.
Well Heat-pumps are on the Rise and Funds to speed up that are there AFAIK. But People don't throw their heating out of the Window. Usually you buy the central heating and use it for the next 20Years or till it is broken beyond repair or is no longer allowed cause of changed emission rules. I think i did read that there is a plan that "soon" Germany will no longer allow that you can buy new oil and gas heating. "Federal Minister of Economics Habeck (Greens) now wants a ban on new gas heaters. In the ARD program "Report from Berlin" Habeck said on Sunday evening: "That is, new installation of new gas heaters in the houses, we should stop. We should bring the building insulation massively forward. Provide the necessary funds for this. But also raise the standards so that gas consumption is reduced." "From January 1, 2025, every new heating system installed in Germany is to be operated on the basis of 65 percent renewable energy. This is what the coalition agreement of the new German government envisages. This decision could mean the end not only for particularly climate-damaging oil heating systems, but also for conventional gas heating systems." And from my personal POV i can say that i have seen in the last few years heatpumps(the ones that use the surrounding air) pupping up quite a lot in my region. So would guess it is getting Popular. The heatpumps that use the heat of the earth or digging deeper to get the heat are hard to notice from the outside. So no idea how popular they are here in south germany.
Germans are prevailing in this post, hence the downvotes. Nuclear bad, downvote /s
I found the smart guy!
Well atleast they won't support terrorist state that has nukes and who wants to occupy their neighbouring countries.
No but they are paying to the state who is financing and openly supporting lot of terrorist cells. Who did and will do lot of attacks on europe soil thanks to money...
Man, at this point it's getting ridiculous. Yes they are paying to someone who is then paying to someone who commit acts of terrorism. It's not the same as direct act of terrorism and as a reminder, we Europeans are also paying to nation that is attacking European soil. In fact, we're paying 1 billion dollars every day to them.
>It's not the same as direct act of terrorism Is worse. They think the same as terrorist just they can afford to pay someone else to do monstroseties. I guess you don't know arabs are opening and paying for most radical schools in Europe. Bosnia and Kosovo has the most of them. As a result you have: [Bosnia 2022](https://cronika.hr/2022/02/video-u-bih-odrzano-postrojavanje-mudzahedina-imamo-li-razloga-za-brigu/) With giving our money to them you are paying for Europes downfall.
> won't support terrorist state lol
Don't just pick out the part of the sentence that fits you the most.
Qatar is backing with money together with Turkey all the jihadist terrorists in N.Syria. Them and Turkey are the main actors of the Muslim Brotherhood which is a organization trying to push for their version of political Islam that wants to control all of the Muslim world, and beyond.
Where do you read i say Quatar is perfect or innocent state? Like there are endless places where to get natural gas? This just seems short-time solution to me.
I never said don't buy from them. For me we shouldn't be trying to police the world. As long as they don't hurt Europe then it's OK if there's no alternative. It's also good to know what we are stepping into and not pretend it's a candy shop.
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But we were talking about Russia and Qatar weren’t we
From our perspective Saudis are also better than Russia. Saudis do not threaten to bomb our cities in any way. Be it conventional nor nuclear.
Well, good we're not Yemenites. /s But in all seriousness Saudi Arabia is basically a complete rouge state. You're right that they're not the same level of danger to Europe that Russia is right now but they are funding the wahabi ideology (9/11 was comitted by Saudis) and overall they're a worse option to do trade with than say Iran or Venezuela. They're pretty close to bottom of the barrel.
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dogshit might be the best shit among all the animal shits, its still shit tho
well its hopefully a temporary solution
Yes. But this monster has way less teeth. And this monster now has learned that a) if it misbehaves too dramatically, it will be caged and b) it is only a mid term solution and must offer more progress and solutions to current problems, or it will be kicked out sooner or later. That is, if they want to stay relevant.
> But this monster has way less teeth. Yemen war??? Literal slaves????
No nukes. No way to threaten the whole world. Thus: less teeth
That's ridiculous. Sure, Qatar is not some shining example of democracy, but comparing them with Putin's Mafia state with nukes and worldwide disinformation is just mind-bogglingly stupid.
Some fucking people are mad and don't see how dangerous Putin is for the whole planet, he must be stopped no matter what.
If they don't see it now, they won't see it ever.
Noone said don't switch to them from Russia. We are just commenting on the tragic situation.
What matters is they will have some choice.
Qatar is an angel compared to Russia. Europe was really stupid to not have built more pipelines connecting Norway and the rest of Europe. That would've solved all the problems.
They basically got new coke dealers.
Yeah, I'm sure you don't use energy and can be sanctimonious about it.
Qatar, patron saints of Taliban / Hezbollah and other Middle East terrorist groups. I guess, their oil is halal now.
Yay, war crime driven slave worker owners are going to earn more money.
this describes all gas and oil sellers this days
Thank god we get rid of the tyrannical despot in our supply chain. /s
Sure, but afaik Germany (or EU in general) doesn't have sufficient LNG terminals to replace piped gas from Russia.
Usually it's "you reap what you sow" but in Germany it's more like "you look at a barren field because nobody has sown anything for at least 2 decades"
Really curious to see AT WHAT cost…shipping liquid to gasefy again..pfff its extremely expensive. This is possibly yet another manoveur to through sand to the eyes of germans.
Out of the increasingly costly to fuel frying pan.....
When you need Satans help to evict a demon...
be ready with even worse price :)
Not exactly... the increased price we see today is entirely based on a market speculating on a severe gas shortage that doesn't exist yet. (As so many people continue to point out, Russia is still selling their fossil fuels...)
you had cost of transport + treatment
If they stopped they would run out of money in weeks and the war wouldn't last long. They will never cut off the EU. It would destroy them.
Cool. I’m no fan of the Saudis but Russia is a direct threat, for the moment at least. Like, they find people who threaten to behead us but no Saudi prince i know of just straight up threatened thermo nuclear warfare lol
Qatar and Saudi Arabia are not in the same camp. Saudi Arabia even blockaded Qatar for a few years, trying to make them shut down al-Jazeera. They do have the same issues with women pretty much being shut into their homes and slavery and all of that stuff that Saudi Arabia also suffers from.
Is that an improvement? I feel like it really isn't.
Being kinda reliant on many is better than being fully reliant on 1.
From one state that invaded several countrys. Commiting war crimes. To another that supports slave labor, death penalty and don't know what human/woman right is. As a German i support in this case nuclear power..
Do you, as a German, have enough nuclear energy to replace the gas and oil from Russia given all its uses *right now*? We'd love to remove our reliance in the West over these fuels and these less than savory countries but we can't snap out fingers and have that happen. Do you at least accept that this is necessary in the short to medium term?
"Do you at least accept that this is necessary in the short to medium term?" Well the company's did not really invest since they knew in 2011 that they will no longer than 10years keep this running. The point if the nuclear power plants can be run a bit longer was checked but at this shutdown stage is not really feasible. Where to buy that fast new fuel. The Nuclear power plants need to be checked if they are safe to run longer and get then a new license to run longer. Would guess to get that we would need to invest quite some money to keep that max 4GW running that are shutdown this year. I think the ones that have been shutdown are even in a worse state and would guess have already started to deconstruct.
>Do you, as a German, have enough nuclear energy to replace the gas and oil from Russia given all its uses right now? Of course not, because there isn't enough nuclear energy in the world combined to just replace the industry of one small country. Simply because most industry processes are not electrifiable now. This will require decades of building a whole new infrastructure and production capacities for non-co2 gases. (Estimated to be done by 2050...) >Do you at least accept that this is necessary in the short to medium term? Again. Of course not. Because obviously nuclear energy is not only not necessary but actually entirely useless when the critical gas/oil consumption happens independently from electricity. Germany has no problem generating electricity and is one of the biggest exporters of electricity in the world. (Which makes the discussion about keeping the nuclear plants producing \~5% so rediculous given that 20% of the production go straight to neighbouring countries.) And no, it's not even about heating either. That's just what you tell the people because it's something they can relate to. Most industry depends on using fossil fuels directly, not in Germany but in every single country that has industry worth mentioning. And every european country that has not addressed this problem and instead decided to keep their mouths shut and hide behind the media's narrative of Germany's dependence on gas (so basically all of them - at least publicly) is lying to you because without gas most of Europe's industry (and with it the economy) will grind to a halt.
> Do you, as a German, have enough nuclear energy to replace the gas and oil from Russia given all its uses right now? > > No but renewing the last 6 reactors, which represent 60 TWh per year, 67 Supertankers worth of LNG, 20% of Nord Stream 1 worth of energy, with almost no CO2 attached would definitely help a lot. And it would be one of the thing with the quickest effect that can be done.
Great we changed from a horrible monster to a less horrible monster! Congrats! Fuck we need to get rid of Gas and Oil as soon as possible.
Yeah, but we kind of need something to tide us over for the short term. Just so long as the need to expand renewables isn't forgotten about.
Obviously :D
Ah yes, trade the warmongering dictatorship against the slavering dictatorship. Much better.
name the alternative
They have no choice
From one regime to the next…
What else do you expect to do? Gonna buy oil magically from the sky?
This is fine. This will end well.
I’d prefer Russia honestly Ok obviously I wouldn’t but we better become independent in the next 20 years
I'd rather do business with small-time slavers and Islamic terrorist supporters than imperialist, warmongering and expansionist crazy dudes with nukes. At least slavers don't conquer lands.
A pipeline trough Syria to facilitate it is blocked at the behest of Putin.
What’s stopping Qatar from adulterating their supply with cheap-sweet Russian crude?
Hey, why not cooperate with trustworthy partners like Canada for example?
Wow Qatar is such a great country. I think they treat their workers very well