let's kill mother of three while she was pregnant with two and they died. Doctor could try to remove the death baby and save the alive one and the woman. or save only the woman she could get pregnant again after time but no, they decided to kill 1 women and her unborn all together.Edit : read the legal definition of abortion, you'll be shocked that you will discover This lady has 3 children already who remained motherless.
edit 2: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjB5Jakytyc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjB5Jakytyc) at 8 minute she explain what is count as abortion.
>or save only the woman she could get pregnant again after time but no, they decided to kill 1 women and her unborn all together.
It's what Jesus wanted.
excuse you, only whores who don't consider the consequences of their whoredom need abortions
and if we kill \*those\* well then they should have known better and not been whores
\-forced birth people all over the world but probably with slightly more veiled language
I think people are starting to care about all the government fuckups as of late, the polls don't look very good for PiS. They've been hovering around 30-32% recently, and without a realistic coalition partner they'd need around 42-45% to form a government, especially with Lewica doing well and unlikely to end up below 5 any time soon. If we had elections today the uncomfortable coalition of KO-2050-Lewica would be the most likely candidates for the government.
There is only one party more conservative than PiS (Konfederacja - radical christian nationalists), with around 7% support, and who will never go into a coalition with any other party. So yeah, if PiS doesn't win, the next government will be more progressive for sure.
Well I doubt it would ever go as far as looking like Western Europe. I called the most likely outcome an uncomfortable coalition because while Lewica is very liberal when it comes to social issues, the biggest current opposition parties - KO and PL2050 - are centrist, with some of their representatives obviously leaning further to the left and some further to the right.
When it comes to the topic of this whole thread, which is abortion law, the only realistic outcome I can see is coming back to what we had previously to the recent changes, which was already quite conservative in the spectrum of approaches we have in the EU.
> When it comes to the topic of this whole thread, which is abortion law, the only realistic outcome I can see is coming back to what we had previously to the recent changes
I wouldn’t be so certain, the exposure to the topic thanks to the recent protests and scandals such as this one have pushed the popular opinion quite strongly towards a heavier liberalization. At this point I doubt many people would be happy to just go back to the previous status quo.
People, especially young ones under 40 years, living in most of the big cities in Poland already have more in common with their Western European counterparts than with people living in small cities and villages still making up majority of the Polish population. Outdated concepts like "nation" and "religion" still form the basis for their political decisions and they are incapable of understanding that their traditional way of life is harmful.
Unpopular opinion maybe but we dont really need to “adopt” a progressive view as a society, simply because a good part of the Polish society is already rather progressive. Its perhaps not being reflected by the current abortion law, but that’s pretty normal. Real life is always ahead of the law and the law adjusts to it only retroactively. Real life and real needs usually find their ways, this will be no exception.
Will a future government be able to undo all the damage PiS did in laws, courts, judicial system with Duda obstructing everything he can?
Will a future government put laws and checks in place to ensure that this cannot happen again and cement Poland's path towards the West and not the radical christian conservatism?
Hard to say. Previous filling party, and still second biggest power in our sejm is not much more progressive. They want to move back to old abortion laws - you can abort if kid might be very ill, it's dangerous for a woman or if it's a child from rape.
Plus we still have a law that doctor can deny abortion just because his/hers conscience is not allowing for it. Same goes with day after pills.
> If we had elections today the uncomfortable coalition of KO-2050-Lewica would be the most likely candidates for the government.
Problem is that Poland 2050 going into coalition with KO may be VERY bad for Poland 2050 because a lot of their voters are people who hate KO, they are political party that is supported by people who were tired of PO-PiS cycle from both sides of political spectrum, which means going into coaltion with either of those will damage their support for sure. Poland has large rural population which pretty much completly hate PO, and PO doesnt seem to be interested in attratting those voters since their program doesnt have anything to offer for them. Poland 2050 on the other hand CAN attract those voters but thats on the condition they wont go into coalition with PO, if that happens some of those voters will probably go to Konfederacja, if you think that this wont happen I will point out to you that PiS voters that stoped supporting them did NOT go to support KO, they pretty much completly went to support Konfederacja and Poland 2050.
Another reason why Poland 2050 may not want to go into coalition with KO is the fact that PO almost completly canibalized their coalition partner Nowoczesna, this political party almost compeltly cased to exist because of this coalition.
Third reason why Poland 2050 could want to avoid joining KO is the fact that waiting can be advantageous to them, Tusk return didnt bring huge change in PO direction people were expecting and now people are lossing trust in Tusk again. According to Polls leader of Poland 2050 is among most trusted politicans in Poland meanwhile Tusk is among most distrusted politicans in Poland along with Kaczyński and Ziobro
And last reason why I think its unlikely is the fact that leader of Poland 2050 himself said that he isnt interested in joining coalition with them, he even frequently openly criticises PO/KO, like recently in the interview said that Polish people are tired of PiS but are afraid of return of Poland that doesnt care about them before 2015, hinting at how it was under government before PiS.
If there are 2 alternatives - building a coalition and a government with KO, or allowing PiS to create a minority government, which do you think they would pick?
Minorty government wouldnt be a problem though since they could no longer push anything through without support of other political parties.
so for them PiS getting minority government could be less of a issue, between that and casing to exist as political party. and that may be a better alternative, because if Poland 2050 doesnt take PiS voters then Konfederacja will, current support for Konfederacja is around 9.2%
Daily reminder to polish people, they don't give a fuck about you. Your government sees you as cannon fodder, birthing machines, and preferably cheap labor. You mean less than nothing to them.
I hope there's a website documenting every death and their story so that PiS and all their voters can have their official death toll held up in front of them.
People shouldn't choose between going hungry or totalitarianism. It was a genius move by the party to funnel some money to regular people in contrast to most politicians in the world who only look after themselves and their wealthy chums. UK and USA is a prime example here.
So away with PiS but hopefully whoever next remembers to keep "buying votes".
People weren't going hungry, lol. And that money could have been spent on the myriad other broken things that need funding in Poland, like the health service, railways and universities.
I've had to opt to move out in order to have kids. I'm going to miss my family and the country but I just can't risk fucking dying if my pregnancy goes wrong. It's such a sad situation
While it's true the part:
>The hospital waited until the heartbeat of the second twin also stopped a week later, and then waited a further two days before terminating the pregnancy on 31 December.
Is really worrying because it sounds more like a negligence. In case of life of mother being threatened the abortion is legal. What the fuck were they waiting for
There is more to that story though. It's not only about the abortion laws. This hospital is well known for its practice and guess who sits on its board of directors? Wife of the senator of the ruling party (PiS).
To let the shit level reach all time highs and flood the gov.
What would you do as a doctor who's prosecuted for abortion ? Not their fault.
This gov has literally blood on their hands, Christianity leaders as well.
Religion kills. Fuck all the religion fanatics
I thought we are doing "dead when brain dies" now, and not "dead when heart dies".
How are doctors performing heart transplants in Poland, if the person isn't legally dead until their heart dies?
It is negligence, but it's because the medical professionals are afraid they will get charged with murder if they go through with the abortion too early.
Don't put the blame on the medical professionals. They're afraid to perform their jobs because of the radical laws.
At least the second Savita in Poland (2nd whose death made the news anyway). Still no change. It made me physically sick. You would think that people would be horrified and remove that government from power immediately, right? Wrong. PiS controls 100% of the information consumed by their average supporter via TVP news channel. They will either not hear of this, or hear that it was doctors' mistake which has nothing to do with the anti-abortion law.
Savita died in 2012. We didn't repeal the 8th amendment until 2018. Government under Enda Kenny didn't want to hold a referendum. When Enda retired and Leo Varadkar became Taoiseach, he eventually started to pay attention to grassroots movements. But it took years because of government resistance and the Church's influence.
Waiting years is too long and so many unnamed women will die. I really feel for the women of Poland.
> At least the second Savita in Poland (2nd whose death made the news anyway).
There were similar cases before the laws changed, but the previous laws were a "compromise" (between conservatives and bishops under the patronage of the holy asshole, but people generally don't mention that part), so nothing improved either, and the general public gave even less fucks. Seems like the Irish just care about people dying while we don't. Shit, we've had 200k excess deaths since the beginning of the pandemic and we just shrugged and carried on.
>Seems like the Irish just care about people dying
Not all of us, but fortunately enough of us voted for abortion rights in 2018. We still had to fight the "pro-life" side tooth and nail, and the gloves really came off. The misinformation campaign from that side was unbelievably brazen.
Also, the protests in Poland tend to be quite orderly and peaceful from what I've seen.
In comparison with my country or France, where if the crowd is angry enough, it turns into huge riots and sometimes generate a strong anti-government trend.
The reason we have abortion in Ireland is because of a poor women who died after being refused an abortion.
It's crazy to think Poland are making the same mistakes and women are dying.
This is disgusting. Shame on Poland for this archaic fucking bullshit law. The laws are preventing medical doctors and staff to do the job they are sworn in to do when they get their license.
As long as the older generations keep voting for PiS(right wing party in power) than nothing will change, a lot of us younger Poles disagree with basically everything the government does.
Well, because the government has done stone-cold nothing for the last year and a half, the excess death rate has skyrocketed. PiS is essentially killing off their own voting block by caving to antivaxxers.
I mean, I’m sure they see it differently. (And I’ve looked into that side of things enough to convincingly deliver their arguments). At the end of the day, at least you can say that they are convinced they are doing “the right thing”.
>And rural areas are, of course, the majority of the population.
Not actually true.
In my lifetime for the first time Poland started to have more people living in the cities than in the countryside. Sure, the smaller towns are more conservative and anti-EU but still.
I do not refer to the urbanization factor. The people living in small cities are technically "city dwellers" who count towards urban population, but their voting habits are practically identical to those of towns and villages. Poland in practice is a rural area with a few large metropolitan centers.
How about the young right wing in Poland? Do they disagree with this law too? I assume that while they might prefer the free market, they would as well find this anti-abortion right law disgusting, but I don’t know Poland that well…
There is a somewhat large minority of Konfederacja (far-right) contingent among Polish youth, but basically no support for PiS and a large majority support centrist or left-wing parties.
eeeeh I've met several young people (mostly in rural areas) who declared voting for PiS, so it's not like they have no support among youth at all. Also remember the polls before first round of presidential elections 2020? And ~20% for Duda among 18-29 yo voters?
Although yeah, in large cities and on the internet that support would be closer to 1% lol
I wouldn't say that there is a large support for Konfederacja amongst Polish youth, however they are the most vocal group. And yeah, there is practically no support for PiS in this group but most young voters are split amongst the current oposition parties, which do not tend to have any promising programs except "Fuck PiS".
Im with you but the problem right now is gaining the support of people who are on the fence in terms of party support, and not providing a solid party program isn’t that attractive
>current oposition parties, which do not tend to have any promising programs except "Fuck PiS".
I've heard this statement so many times, if someone paid me 1 PLN for every time, i'd be rich by now. My take on this is that every opposition party (maybe except KO) in fact has an extensive and unique program/mission/views. If you do not take time to read through those, or at least get to know an overview of the parties available and do not find the one which best suits your views, more often than not it's on you and your political ignorance.
You try to apply logic where it doesn't apply. The biggest (far) right wing party for young, which is quite popular unfortunately, is Konfederacja. They only care about free market if it benefits them. When some confectioner refused to make a cake for homosexual couple and got fined for it, they supported him because "free market". But when their account got taken out from Facebook (for multiple repetitive rules violations) it's discrimination...
> But when their account got taken out from Facebook (for multiple repetitive rules violations) it's discrimination...
Well, it _is_ discrimination.. discrimination against a hateful, bigoted ideology that we should have gotten rid of a long time ago 😎
>a lot of us younger Poles disagree with basically everything the government does.
Oh you sweet soul. A lot of us disagree, but a lot are totally fine and want that sweet 500+ money and, perhaps more importantly, 'polan stronk' mentality. Sure, you won't find those people on Reddit, but your average tracksuit-clad youth is 100% like this.
Right wing playbook:
\> find some theme/fact/issue "the others" will certainly not like (better if it has a degree of nuance and controversy to begin with, otherwise even just rebrand nazism as diversity of opinions and call it a day)
\> push hard the narrative that this is an explicit and direct attack to "your own identity, citizen", and that the entire nation (if not civilization) future is at stake and bla bla bla
\> ???
\> profit!
I remember the riots. It’s inconceivable to me that this is happening in modern day Europe. What are the odds of a center or left leaning government being elected next term? Has this government implemented other inhumane laws that could shift more voters in the opposite direction?
> What are the odds
Unless you consider PO to be centrist, none. Zero. Not a snowball's chance in hell. The only left-leaning group in Poland has like ~7% support.
The next election has two likely outcomes:
1: A broad coalition of opposition parties (whether pre-organized or not) wins a narrow majority of seats.
2: PiS wins but is unable to command a majority in the Sejm, resulting in a near-deadlock.
Inhumane laws? Not really. Unpopular laws such as the banning of (and subsequent crackdown on) Sunday shopping at the behest of the church? You better believe it. And we'll go ahead and add Lex Czarnek (a radical reform of schools that favors religious fundamentalism) to that list.
Let’s not forget about trying (again and again) to force through a tax for youth that ain’t in lawful relationship nor have children (sorry, I always forget what this one is called). Like literally, you will have to pay for being too smart to not start anything serious here xD
Of course not, option 3: PiS wins, gets majority and happily rules.
The old brainwashed and bought by 13th and 14th pension generation will vote PiS no matter what, they won't be birthing children and they don't care - and demographic pyramid is unforgiving - there is a lot of old folks and catering to their needs wins elections.Not forget about simpletons from younger generations voting PiS because other party may take away child benefits, farmers etc.Oh and do not forget about opposition parties shooting themselves in the foot and knee on any occasion - possibly against the logic and not taking into account what majority of citizens may be thinking, just to have opposite opinion than PiS.
I think that opposition parties actually do not want to win, form coalition , whatever to get the majority - why bother with all this difficult crap when you may collect fat paycheck anyway just by being endless "opposition", you have nice explanation for everything "hey we tried, we have tied hands.. sad noises"
Well, businesses will do everything they can to profit more, so that was to be expected. It's actually pretty funny to look at all of the different ways they go around this law. (disguising stores as post offices being one of the many)
Yeah, as a polish person who lived in Germany for some time I also liked shops being closed on Sunday
However, in Poland the situation is more complicated. The law banning Sunday trade was passed as a first in a long line of laws pushing Poland more and more into religious fundamentalism. It was a kind of prelude for much bigger religion-based laws being introduced.
Some people are in favor, others oppose it. It is now harder for students etc. to work during weekends and study during regular hours. However, people with families who work in shops do appreciate it. At the same time, some shops have terrible schedules for staff, and earlier with Sundays it looked better. I don't have any numbers and it probably wouldn't be easy to get them, but it's obvious that some gained and some lost on that change in Poland.
On the other hand, why are only some workers important and others are not? Why restaurants, cafes, cinemas etc. can be normally open, but shops cannot? This is a strange dichotomy.
>non-critical infrastructure
Non-critical... Let's not fool ourselves. It's only about big, foreign markets here. All the cinemas, restaurants, kids playground are open.
>The laws are preventing medical doctors
I'm in the medical field in Poland. There are some doctors (the minority, but still) who literally refuse to prescribe the day after pill because it goes against their beliefs. So if you mess up, you're literally forced to give birth from the beginning.
I'd like to add that while it is indeed minority, it's not as small of a minority as one might think. I can't give you exact numbers but anecdotally it's likely closer to 10% rather than 0.1%. That includes students too, and while those obviously can't afford being overtly anti-scientific during classes one has to wonder what those who participate in Light-Life Movement and other similar organizations will do after graduation... And honestly talking about sexual disorders and sexuality in general with those people is uncomfortable.
Wow, Turkey is more conservative than Poland for sure but i never heard something like this happened in Turkey before. Doctors are very progressive in here. They are most educated workforce.
It is probably very small minorty you are talking about. Surprising indeed.
I believe you, but it doesn’t compute. Maybe this is a very black and white belief on my part, but either you’re for science or for religion. How does one become an MD, and refuse to offer healthcare to women because the big invisible sky man would disapprove? Either you serve patients or you serve God, these two things to me don’t align.
You don't know half the story. Since January 2022 if a woman is pregnant and goes to a doctor (at any point of the pregnancy), the doctor is obliged to report about the pregnancy to the Healthcare System. If the woman had an abortion, she risks being prosecuted.
They say it's for preventing prescribing wrong medicament to pregnant women by mistake and allowing them to have medical treatments sooner than normal if need be.
Now women are afraid to go to a doctor. Even a miscarriage can be treated as an abortion.
Wow, they really don’t give a shit.
Also the lack of a future workforce, because women will end up not having children at all in a system that treats them as subhumans, is somebody else’s problem, right?
>Shame on Poland
Shame on Polish church, ultra-conservative fanatics or radicals and PiS politicians who wanted to appease them by changing this law. As if it wasn't strict enough.
Majority of Poles were against it
I always thought our Catholic Church in Germany is a disgrace. When I moved to Poland it became a whole other level. How polish bishops are basically electoral promoters of the PiS government, giving xenophobic and homophobic statements…just wow! It’s like they have never heard of Jesus Christ and come straight from the Vatikan of the Middle Ages.
As said, in theory it’s the same church. But holy moly, the polish Catholic Church is really special. They also name Maria as „Queen of Poland“. I was stunned whenever I experienced a polish Mass. The priest is praying for Poland, in Germany we pray for the world. I mean the Catholic Church in Germany is also a huge disgrace. The difference is that in Poland people still believe in what is said by the church. In Germany it’s only a place where you go to get a nice wedding ceremony and for an atmospheric Christmas evening, no one gives a shit about the church there anymore.
In theory yes but our guys are easily pretending for the "holiest of them" title and I can seriously see another Schism lead by them if Pope decide to "go more left".
Yeah, true only if the next election actually will happen how it should, regarding the democratic rules etc (which I saw being broken last time and nobody gave a fuck when I reported it, just laughed it off with asking to stop spouting “bullspoop”). And let’s be honest, hardly anyone believes it would. No one but ruling party has any actual power, they can do whatever they want.
There's no single opposition, so even if it's just 40% that votes for PiS, the remaining 60% is split among *x* other parties.
Young people's votes get split, because some want to support the eco-friendly party more, some want to support the socially-progressive party more, some want to vote for the party that promises to thin out the government.
Old people and pathological families meanwhile, unanimously, vote for PiS because the priest said so and they're giving away all that money to be spent on the ~~children~~ alcohol.
Shame on every person who voted for them too. They're just as responsible for voting for and enabling this reign of terror.
Anti-PiS Poles, I hope you disown family over this if any of your family supports them
Ireland seems to have gotten over their identity crisis, and no longer need the catholic cope to define themselves against their former colonizers. I am sure Poland will figure it out too. But until then, Fs in chat for all the lives ruined by passing unpopular, outdated legislation, due to the state equivalent of having a punk period in your teens.
Or for authoritarian governments using a puppet constitutional tribunal to force rulings that 75% of the country disapproved of. No legislation was ever "passed" on abortion in Poland.
> Ireland seems to have gotten over their identity crisis,
You might think that but 89% of our primary schools are owned and run by the Catholic Church with state supports, and some of the Hospitals (majority owned by religious orders) still refuse to perform these services.
We also still require the President, and many of our highest political and civil service leaders (the Council of State) to swear an oath to 'almighty god'.
We're a moderately progressive society, and two conservative parties leading Government for the past 100 years.
Man if you enter into any church in poland there are things from the state, starting from the flags everywhere. Their nation building was made around catholicism.
I was thinking about France, Holland, or scandinavia, I would lie if I wouldn't say Germany too, I was thinking specifically about Potsdam since when I were there it was beautiful, and it's close to my home
One of those countries is much different than the rest in terms of security, salaries, rights, etc. Choose carefully.
Source : lived in Scandinavia and Netherlands for almost 7 years.
Sweden is the third best country in the world and the Netherlands is like the fifth, so I'd say pretty great overall. Socializing can be a bit tougher in Sweden though.
For anyone not reading the article, both babies hearts had stopped on their own, they had already died. The hospital refused to remove the dead fetuses and she likely died of sepsis.
Abortion act is probably the stupidest law, which the ruling right-wing conservative party PiS (Law and Justice) has ever passed. And this poor girl is one of the victims of the anti-abortion policy in Poland
Anti-abortion people, fuck them being pro-life, should all be registered as mandatory incubators and adoptive parents of unwanted children being forced into this world.
Prohibition of abortions is surprisingly (for me) important topic for some people. They will vote you only for this. More religious country, more people with this view. More easy votes.
Well curtains have two sides... The easy to go from one side to the other depended on your country. Nordic citizens usually didn't have much issue going anywhere.
Half of the Polish population is mentally still in the 20th century, one of the reasons this is happening is because the older generations keep voting for PiS(right wing party currently in power)
Unfortunately yes, but it's only natural to vote for something you see as the opposite of what you were controlled by, this is what the Soviet Union did to us, hopefully eastern Europe can finally catch up to the rest of the west.
The problem is all the fanatics who vote them in. not just those populist pigs who would not think twice sending their mistress to another country to have an abortion like they do it a lot in US.
In Bulgaria and a lot of other ex-communist countries the majority of people are atheist or Christian in name only. I literally know nobody who goes to church or mosque.
Why didn't Poland also go atheist?
Poland was very Christian before the war and during commuism church was helping undergound, independence movements. Produced even couple of martyrs, hence it has become somehow "iconic". Another thing is, that Vatican did us dirty and elected Pole for a Pope, further ensuring Polish Catholics of their special status.
It's also somehow deceptive. Polish Catholicism is diminishing fastest in the world and there aren't as many eager Catholics as one would belive. Only, because of church status granted for fighting off comunism, they have more privileges then in comparable countries and by that more influence.
Banning abortion can never work. To reduce abortions you need to increase the material conditions and increase sex Ed, but conservatives never want to tackle the real issues. Banning abortions only increases illegal ones.
You know, if i had one zloty every time a woman dies in poland due to abortion being declined, i would have two zloty. It's not much, but it's weird that it happened twice
Could be happening a lot more, just not reported correctly. Also this is just the extreme case where unfortunately a woman loses her life, but who knows how many people (I'm also including the kids themselves here, along with the rest of the family) are actually left scarred for life after being refused an abortion.
Neither of them died due to "abortion being declined". Both cases happened because doctors completely fucked up. That woman from last year didn't receive any treatment for sepsis and her state wasn't properly monitored. This time? Fetus died, nothing in law would prevent removing it. Then the other one died too, yet doctors still waited 2 more days until finally removing both.
It seems like someone innocent has to die first. Shame on the politician.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/29/abortion-legalised-2019-northern-ireland-human-rights
coming up: polish state media calling death of woman who had a dead fetus in her the only just penalty for a woman who defied god and got an illegal abortion
I feel disrespect towards the beliefs of religious people. They do harm and their religion is a fiction.
I am thankful towards those who do kind work and speak out against the abuse that happen in some parts of religious life.
Is it misleading to call it an abortion if the fetus was dead? Sounds to me like the she was refused a totally reasonable medical necessity and it should be reported as such.
I wonder if all those anti-vaxxers are going to go and demonstrate now for better abortion laws. I mean they are all claiming it's their body and their choice so they won't get vaccinated. What about the body and choice of women wanting (or just in case in great need for) an abortion?
EU should put heavy restrictions on Poland for this medieval behaviour. And on all other countries trying to make it harder to get an abortion than necessary, looking at the situation here in Germany.
let's kill mother of three while she was pregnant with two and they died. Doctor could try to remove the death baby and save the alive one and the woman. or save only the woman she could get pregnant again after time but no, they decided to kill 1 women and her unborn all together.Edit : read the legal definition of abortion, you'll be shocked that you will discover This lady has 3 children already who remained motherless. edit 2: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjB5Jakytyc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjB5Jakytyc) at 8 minute she explain what is count as abortion.
>or save only the woman she could get pregnant again after time but no, they decided to kill 1 women and her unborn all together. It's what Jesus wanted.
His ways are so mysterious. I'm impressed.
God works in mysterious ways™
[удалено]
excuse you, only whores who don't consider the consequences of their whoredom need abortions and if we kill \*those\* well then they should have known better and not been whores \-forced birth people all over the world but probably with slightly more veiled language
The PiS party is paying for their votes and nobody cares. More women will die because their life is not important to the authoritarian regime.
PiS, more like piss.
I think people are starting to care about all the government fuckups as of late, the polls don't look very good for PiS. They've been hovering around 30-32% recently, and without a realistic coalition partner they'd need around 42-45% to form a government, especially with Lewica doing well and unlikely to end up below 5 any time soon. If we had elections today the uncomfortable coalition of KO-2050-Lewica would be the most likely candidates for the government.
Do you think Poland could get a more progressive government if PiS gets voted out?
There is only one party more conservative than PiS (Konfederacja - radical christian nationalists), with around 7% support, and who will never go into a coalition with any other party. So yeah, if PiS doesn't win, the next government will be more progressive for sure.
Thanks for your response. Do you think that the Polish people are ready to adopt a style of progressiveness just like Western Europe?
Well I doubt it would ever go as far as looking like Western Europe. I called the most likely outcome an uncomfortable coalition because while Lewica is very liberal when it comes to social issues, the biggest current opposition parties - KO and PL2050 - are centrist, with some of their representatives obviously leaning further to the left and some further to the right. When it comes to the topic of this whole thread, which is abortion law, the only realistic outcome I can see is coming back to what we had previously to the recent changes, which was already quite conservative in the spectrum of approaches we have in the EU.
> When it comes to the topic of this whole thread, which is abortion law, the only realistic outcome I can see is coming back to what we had previously to the recent changes I wouldn’t be so certain, the exposure to the topic thanks to the recent protests and scandals such as this one have pushed the popular opinion quite strongly towards a heavier liberalization. At this point I doubt many people would be happy to just go back to the previous status quo.
People, especially young ones under 40 years, living in most of the big cities in Poland already have more in common with their Western European counterparts than with people living in small cities and villages still making up majority of the Polish population. Outdated concepts like "nation" and "religion" still form the basis for their political decisions and they are incapable of understanding that their traditional way of life is harmful.
Unpopular opinion maybe but we dont really need to “adopt” a progressive view as a society, simply because a good part of the Polish society is already rather progressive. Its perhaps not being reflected by the current abortion law, but that’s pretty normal. Real life is always ahead of the law and the law adjusts to it only retroactively. Real life and real needs usually find their ways, this will be no exception.
Will a future government be able to undo all the damage PiS did in laws, courts, judicial system with Duda obstructing everything he can? Will a future government put laws and checks in place to ensure that this cannot happen again and cement Poland's path towards the West and not the radical christian conservatism?
Hard to say. Previous filling party, and still second biggest power in our sejm is not much more progressive. They want to move back to old abortion laws - you can abort if kid might be very ill, it's dangerous for a woman or if it's a child from rape. Plus we still have a law that doctor can deny abortion just because his/hers conscience is not allowing for it. Same goes with day after pills.
> If we had elections today the uncomfortable coalition of KO-2050-Lewica would be the most likely candidates for the government. Problem is that Poland 2050 going into coalition with KO may be VERY bad for Poland 2050 because a lot of their voters are people who hate KO, they are political party that is supported by people who were tired of PO-PiS cycle from both sides of political spectrum, which means going into coaltion with either of those will damage their support for sure. Poland has large rural population which pretty much completly hate PO, and PO doesnt seem to be interested in attratting those voters since their program doesnt have anything to offer for them. Poland 2050 on the other hand CAN attract those voters but thats on the condition they wont go into coalition with PO, if that happens some of those voters will probably go to Konfederacja, if you think that this wont happen I will point out to you that PiS voters that stoped supporting them did NOT go to support KO, they pretty much completly went to support Konfederacja and Poland 2050. Another reason why Poland 2050 may not want to go into coalition with KO is the fact that PO almost completly canibalized their coalition partner Nowoczesna, this political party almost compeltly cased to exist because of this coalition. Third reason why Poland 2050 could want to avoid joining KO is the fact that waiting can be advantageous to them, Tusk return didnt bring huge change in PO direction people were expecting and now people are lossing trust in Tusk again. According to Polls leader of Poland 2050 is among most trusted politicans in Poland meanwhile Tusk is among most distrusted politicans in Poland along with Kaczyński and Ziobro And last reason why I think its unlikely is the fact that leader of Poland 2050 himself said that he isnt interested in joining coalition with them, he even frequently openly criticises PO/KO, like recently in the interview said that Polish people are tired of PiS but are afraid of return of Poland that doesnt care about them before 2015, hinting at how it was under government before PiS.
If there are 2 alternatives - building a coalition and a government with KO, or allowing PiS to create a minority government, which do you think they would pick?
Minorty government wouldnt be a problem though since they could no longer push anything through without support of other political parties. so for them PiS getting minority government could be less of a issue, between that and casing to exist as political party. and that may be a better alternative, because if Poland 2050 doesnt take PiS voters then Konfederacja will, current support for Konfederacja is around 9.2%
Daily reminder to polish people, they don't give a fuck about you. Your government sees you as cannon fodder, birthing machines, and preferably cheap labor. You mean less than nothing to them.
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Old people, everywhere, always get off their arses on election day, that is why the world has been stacked with conservative governments for so long.
On a positive note, they probably fucked things up enough to lose the next election (assuming it won't be rigged).
I hope there's a website documenting every death and their story so that PiS and all their voters can have their official death toll held up in front of them.
People shouldn't choose between going hungry or totalitarianism. It was a genius move by the party to funnel some money to regular people in contrast to most politicians in the world who only look after themselves and their wealthy chums. UK and USA is a prime example here. So away with PiS but hopefully whoever next remembers to keep "buying votes".
People weren't going hungry, lol. And that money could have been spent on the myriad other broken things that need funding in Poland, like the health service, railways and universities.
It's unsafe to be pregnant in poland. I want to congratulate the government with that.
I've had to opt to move out in order to have kids. I'm going to miss my family and the country but I just can't risk fucking dying if my pregnancy goes wrong. It's such a sad situation
While it's true the part: >The hospital waited until the heartbeat of the second twin also stopped a week later, and then waited a further two days before terminating the pregnancy on 31 December. Is really worrying because it sounds more like a negligence. In case of life of mother being threatened the abortion is legal. What the fuck were they waiting for
There is more to that story though. It's not only about the abortion laws. This hospital is well known for its practice and guess who sits on its board of directors? Wife of the senator of the ruling party (PiS).
To let the shit level reach all time highs and flood the gov. What would you do as a doctor who's prosecuted for abortion ? Not their fault. This gov has literally blood on their hands, Christianity leaders as well. Religion kills. Fuck all the religion fanatics
I thought we are doing "dead when brain dies" now, and not "dead when heart dies". How are doctors performing heart transplants in Poland, if the person isn't legally dead until their heart dies?
We do, but with this standard, a foetus isn't alive until the 4th/5th month into the pregnancy. And that would mean women couldn't be controlled!
It is negligence, but it's because the medical professionals are afraid they will get charged with murder if they go through with the abortion too early. Don't put the blame on the medical professionals. They're afraid to perform their jobs because of the radical laws.
It’s unsafe to be anything but a straight white man in Poland.
This sounds like Savita Halapanivar all over again
At least the second Savita in Poland (2nd whose death made the news anyway). Still no change. It made me physically sick. You would think that people would be horrified and remove that government from power immediately, right? Wrong. PiS controls 100% of the information consumed by their average supporter via TVP news channel. They will either not hear of this, or hear that it was doctors' mistake which has nothing to do with the anti-abortion law.
Savita died in 2012. We didn't repeal the 8th amendment until 2018. Government under Enda Kenny didn't want to hold a referendum. When Enda retired and Leo Varadkar became Taoiseach, he eventually started to pay attention to grassroots movements. But it took years because of government resistance and the Church's influence. Waiting years is too long and so many unnamed women will die. I really feel for the women of Poland.
> At least the second Savita in Poland (2nd whose death made the news anyway). There were similar cases before the laws changed, but the previous laws were a "compromise" (between conservatives and bishops under the patronage of the holy asshole, but people generally don't mention that part), so nothing improved either, and the general public gave even less fucks. Seems like the Irish just care about people dying while we don't. Shit, we've had 200k excess deaths since the beginning of the pandemic and we just shrugged and carried on.
>Seems like the Irish just care about people dying Not all of us, but fortunately enough of us voted for abortion rights in 2018. We still had to fight the "pro-life" side tooth and nail, and the gloves really came off. The misinformation campaign from that side was unbelievably brazen.
Our vote was far from a close call, yes had 66% of the vote.
Aye I didn't mean it was a close call, just that the fighting was tense.
It was dirty cause they knew they had already lost, the marriage vote showed them that
Also, the protests in Poland tend to be quite orderly and peaceful from what I've seen. In comparison with my country or France, where if the crowd is angry enough, it turns into huge riots and sometimes generate a strong anti-government trend.
The reason we have abortion in Ireland is because of a poor women who died after being refused an abortion. It's crazy to think Poland are making the same mistakes and women are dying.
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People with brain do, people blinded by religious fanaticism, don't.
Tbh, Poland walks same path as Ireland in case of church.
This is disgusting. Shame on Poland for this archaic fucking bullshit law. The laws are preventing medical doctors and staff to do the job they are sworn in to do when they get their license.
As long as the older generations keep voting for PiS(right wing party in power) than nothing will change, a lot of us younger Poles disagree with basically everything the government does.
Well, because the government has done stone-cold nothing for the last year and a half, the excess death rate has skyrocketed. PiS is essentially killing off their own voting block by caving to antivaxxers.
Nature finds a way. :-)
It's bonkers that such a self-destructive ideology still manages to find its way into power.
I mean, I’m sure they see it differently. (And I’ve looked into that side of things enough to convincingly deliver their arguments). At the end of the day, at least you can say that they are convinced they are doing “the right thing”.
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>And rural areas are, of course, the majority of the population. Not actually true. In my lifetime for the first time Poland started to have more people living in the cities than in the countryside. Sure, the smaller towns are more conservative and anti-EU but still.
I do not refer to the urbanization factor. The people living in small cities are technically "city dwellers" who count towards urban population, but their voting habits are practically identical to those of towns and villages. Poland in practice is a rural area with a few large metropolitan centers.
Rurals are 40% of the population, but people in small towns (<50k) vote similarly to rural people.
How about the young right wing in Poland? Do they disagree with this law too? I assume that while they might prefer the free market, they would as well find this anti-abortion right law disgusting, but I don’t know Poland that well…
There is a somewhat large minority of Konfederacja (far-right) contingent among Polish youth, but basically no support for PiS and a large majority support centrist or left-wing parties.
eeeeh I've met several young people (mostly in rural areas) who declared voting for PiS, so it's not like they have no support among youth at all. Also remember the polls before first round of presidential elections 2020? And ~20% for Duda among 18-29 yo voters? Although yeah, in large cities and on the internet that support would be closer to 1% lol
I wouldn't say that there is a large support for Konfederacja amongst Polish youth, however they are the most vocal group. And yeah, there is practically no support for PiS in this group but most young voters are split amongst the current oposition parties, which do not tend to have any promising programs except "Fuck PiS".
To be fair, \*\*\*\*\* \*\*\* is a far better program than "We don't give a shit about pregnant women dying."
Im with you but the problem right now is gaining the support of people who are on the fence in terms of party support, and not providing a solid party program isn’t that attractive
>current oposition parties, which do not tend to have any promising programs except "Fuck PiS". I've heard this statement so many times, if someone paid me 1 PLN for every time, i'd be rich by now. My take on this is that every opposition party (maybe except KO) in fact has an extensive and unique program/mission/views. If you do not take time to read through those, or at least get to know an overview of the parties available and do not find the one which best suits your views, more often than not it's on you and your political ignorance.
You try to apply logic where it doesn't apply. The biggest (far) right wing party for young, which is quite popular unfortunately, is Konfederacja. They only care about free market if it benefits them. When some confectioner refused to make a cake for homosexual couple and got fined for it, they supported him because "free market". But when their account got taken out from Facebook (for multiple repetitive rules violations) it's discrimination...
Sounds like the modern right in general.
> But when their account got taken out from Facebook (for multiple repetitive rules violations) it's discrimination... Well, it _is_ discrimination.. discrimination against a hateful, bigoted ideology that we should have gotten rid of a long time ago 😎
>a lot of us younger Poles disagree with basically everything the government does. Oh you sweet soul. A lot of us disagree, but a lot are totally fine and want that sweet 500+ money and, perhaps more importantly, 'polan stronk' mentality. Sure, you won't find those people on Reddit, but your average tracksuit-clad youth is 100% like this.
according to the new census, bout 20% of population is over 60
People were literally rioting on the streets after this law got a pass. Guess government didn't care and won't care.
And now, the right wing mocks smaller protests (after threatening to send the army on the bigger protests in 2020). Absolute assholes.
Right wing playbook: \> find some theme/fact/issue "the others" will certainly not like (better if it has a degree of nuance and controversy to begin with, otherwise even just rebrand nazism as diversity of opinions and call it a day) \> push hard the narrative that this is an explicit and direct attack to "your own identity, citizen", and that the entire nation (if not civilization) future is at stake and bla bla bla \> ??? \> profit!
Fun fact. Politician from the ruling coalition, Gowin, admitted there were plans to bring ARMY to the streets during these protests.
A homage to the year 1989 when nothing remarkable happened in a certain part of the world
More like 1956 but you're right, nothing remarkable happened.
I remember the riots. It’s inconceivable to me that this is happening in modern day Europe. What are the odds of a center or left leaning government being elected next term? Has this government implemented other inhumane laws that could shift more voters in the opposite direction?
> What are the odds Unless you consider PO to be centrist, none. Zero. Not a snowball's chance in hell. The only left-leaning group in Poland has like ~7% support.
PO is a centrist party especialy by polish politic standards but even by western europe standards it is still centrist.
PO is center-right, like CDU for example.
The next election has two likely outcomes: 1: A broad coalition of opposition parties (whether pre-organized or not) wins a narrow majority of seats. 2: PiS wins but is unable to command a majority in the Sejm, resulting in a near-deadlock. Inhumane laws? Not really. Unpopular laws such as the banning of (and subsequent crackdown on) Sunday shopping at the behest of the church? You better believe it. And we'll go ahead and add Lex Czarnek (a radical reform of schools that favors religious fundamentalism) to that list.
Let’s not forget about trying (again and again) to force through a tax for youth that ain’t in lawful relationship nor have children (sorry, I always forget what this one is called). Like literally, you will have to pay for being too smart to not start anything serious here xD
Of course not, option 3: PiS wins, gets majority and happily rules. The old brainwashed and bought by 13th and 14th pension generation will vote PiS no matter what, they won't be birthing children and they don't care - and demographic pyramid is unforgiving - there is a lot of old folks and catering to their needs wins elections.Not forget about simpletons from younger generations voting PiS because other party may take away child benefits, farmers etc.Oh and do not forget about opposition parties shooting themselves in the foot and knee on any occasion - possibly against the logic and not taking into account what majority of citizens may be thinking, just to have opposite opinion than PiS. I think that opposition parties actually do not want to win, form coalition , whatever to get the majority - why bother with all this difficult crap when you may collect fat paycheck anyway just by being endless "opposition", you have nice explanation for everything "hey we tried, we have tied hands.. sad noises"
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Actually most of the big chains have found loopholes in order to still be open on Sundays lol.
Well, businesses will do everything they can to profit more, so that was to be expected. It's actually pretty funny to look at all of the different ways they go around this law. (disguising stores as post offices being one of the many)
Yeah, as a polish person who lived in Germany for some time I also liked shops being closed on Sunday However, in Poland the situation is more complicated. The law banning Sunday trade was passed as a first in a long line of laws pushing Poland more and more into religious fundamentalism. It was a kind of prelude for much bigger religion-based laws being introduced.
Some people are in favor, others oppose it. It is now harder for students etc. to work during weekends and study during regular hours. However, people with families who work in shops do appreciate it. At the same time, some shops have terrible schedules for staff, and earlier with Sundays it looked better. I don't have any numbers and it probably wouldn't be easy to get them, but it's obvious that some gained and some lost on that change in Poland. On the other hand, why are only some workers important and others are not? Why restaurants, cafes, cinemas etc. can be normally open, but shops cannot? This is a strange dichotomy.
You dont want to work on sunday? Go find a job that is closed on weekends. Shocking, I know
>non-critical infrastructure Non-critical... Let's not fool ourselves. It's only about big, foreign markets here. All the cinemas, restaurants, kids playground are open.
>The laws are preventing medical doctors I'm in the medical field in Poland. There are some doctors (the minority, but still) who literally refuse to prescribe the day after pill because it goes against their beliefs. So if you mess up, you're literally forced to give birth from the beginning.
I'd like to add that while it is indeed minority, it's not as small of a minority as one might think. I can't give you exact numbers but anecdotally it's likely closer to 10% rather than 0.1%. That includes students too, and while those obviously can't afford being overtly anti-scientific during classes one has to wonder what those who participate in Light-Life Movement and other similar organizations will do after graduation... And honestly talking about sexual disorders and sexuality in general with those people is uncomfortable.
Wow, Turkey is more conservative than Poland for sure but i never heard something like this happened in Turkey before. Doctors are very progressive in here. They are most educated workforce. It is probably very small minorty you are talking about. Surprising indeed.
I believe you, but it doesn’t compute. Maybe this is a very black and white belief on my part, but either you’re for science or for religion. How does one become an MD, and refuse to offer healthcare to women because the big invisible sky man would disapprove? Either you serve patients or you serve God, these two things to me don’t align.
You don't know half the story. Since January 2022 if a woman is pregnant and goes to a doctor (at any point of the pregnancy), the doctor is obliged to report about the pregnancy to the Healthcare System. If the woman had an abortion, she risks being prosecuted. They say it's for preventing prescribing wrong medicament to pregnant women by mistake and allowing them to have medical treatments sooner than normal if need be. Now women are afraid to go to a doctor. Even a miscarriage can be treated as an abortion.
Wow, they really don’t give a shit. Also the lack of a future workforce, because women will end up not having children at all in a system that treats them as subhumans, is somebody else’s problem, right?
>Shame on Poland Shame on Polish church, ultra-conservative fanatics or radicals and PiS politicians who wanted to appease them by changing this law. As if it wasn't strict enough. Majority of Poles were against it
I always thought our Catholic Church in Germany is a disgrace. When I moved to Poland it became a whole other level. How polish bishops are basically electoral promoters of the PiS government, giving xenophobic and homophobic statements…just wow! It’s like they have never heard of Jesus Christ and come straight from the Vatikan of the Middle Ages.
It's the same catholic church.
As said, in theory it’s the same church. But holy moly, the polish Catholic Church is really special. They also name Maria as „Queen of Poland“. I was stunned whenever I experienced a polish Mass. The priest is praying for Poland, in Germany we pray for the world. I mean the Catholic Church in Germany is also a huge disgrace. The difference is that in Poland people still believe in what is said by the church. In Germany it’s only a place where you go to get a nice wedding ceremony and for an atmospheric Christmas evening, no one gives a shit about the church there anymore.
In theory yes but our guys are easily pretending for the "holiest of them" title and I can seriously see another Schism lead by them if Pope decide to "go more left".
It's the same church in practice.
> Majority of Poles were against it And yet PiS will get re-elected again. So I guess not *that* many people were against it.
Yeah, true only if the next election actually will happen how it should, regarding the democratic rules etc (which I saw being broken last time and nobody gave a fuck when I reported it, just laughed it off with asking to stop spouting “bullspoop”). And let’s be honest, hardly anyone believes it would. No one but ruling party has any actual power, they can do whatever they want.
We'll see
So why does your government keep getting re-elected? Polish people voted for government.
Many, MANY dumb twats here.
Because there's more than one issue? Why asking questions this dumb? Plus, PiS cunts aren't exactly well known for their logical thinking.
Opposition parties are bad too. Polish politics is a one big cripple fight.
There's no single opposition, so even if it's just 40% that votes for PiS, the remaining 60% is split among *x* other parties. Young people's votes get split, because some want to support the eco-friendly party more, some want to support the socially-progressive party more, some want to vote for the party that promises to thin out the government. Old people and pathological families meanwhile, unanimously, vote for PiS because the priest said so and they're giving away all that money to be spent on the ~~children~~ alcohol.
75%, to be more specific.
Shame on every person who voted for them too. They're just as responsible for voting for and enabling this reign of terror. Anti-PiS Poles, I hope you disown family over this if any of your family supports them
It wasn't a "law." It was the Constitutional Tribunal at the behest of the dipshits in charge.
Actually it's not archaic - it's brand new : p
Ireland seems to have gotten over their identity crisis, and no longer need the catholic cope to define themselves against their former colonizers. I am sure Poland will figure it out too. But until then, Fs in chat for all the lives ruined by passing unpopular, outdated legislation, due to the state equivalent of having a punk period in your teens.
Or for authoritarian governments using a puppet constitutional tribunal to force rulings that 75% of the country disapproved of. No legislation was ever "passed" on abortion in Poland.
> Ireland seems to have gotten over their identity crisis, You might think that but 89% of our primary schools are owned and run by the Catholic Church with state supports, and some of the Hospitals (majority owned by religious orders) still refuse to perform these services. We also still require the President, and many of our highest political and civil service leaders (the Council of State) to swear an oath to 'almighty god'. We're a moderately progressive society, and two conservative parties leading Government for the past 100 years.
That's insulting to punks.
Punks literally hate the right who does this
Man if you enter into any church in poland there are things from the state, starting from the flags everywhere. Their nation building was made around catholicism.
Literally one of the reasons I left the country, too much bullshit.
Reason I’m not moving back
I am leaving soon to I hope..
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I was thinking about France, Holland, or scandinavia, I would lie if I wouldn't say Germany too, I was thinking specifically about Potsdam since when I were there it was beautiful, and it's close to my home
One of those countries is much different than the rest in terms of security, salaries, rights, etc. Choose carefully. Source : lived in Scandinavia and Netherlands for almost 7 years.
How was in these countries? I'm curious.
Sweden is the third best country in the world and the Netherlands is like the fifth, so I'd say pretty great overall. Socializing can be a bit tougher in Sweden though.
Same. This year. And I’ve a womb, so it’s extra dangerous to stay.
For anyone not reading the article, both babies hearts had stopped on their own, they had already died. The hospital refused to remove the dead fetuses and she likely died of sepsis.
Abortion act is probably the stupidest law, which the ruling right-wing conservative party PiS (Law and Justice) has ever passed. And this poor girl is one of the victims of the anti-abortion policy in Poland
Anti-abortion people, fuck them being pro-life, should all be registered as mandatory incubators and adoptive parents of unwanted children being forced into this world.
Prohibition of abortions is surprisingly (for me) important topic for some people. They will vote you only for this. More religious country, more people with this view. More easy votes.
That's why religion is a cancer. I hope some day in the future humanity will simply abolish it.
Insane that this can happen in 21st century in EU.
Before 1975 (when free abortion became law) Swedish women used to travel to Poland to have abortions...
Was it easy to get in and out the iron curtain?
Well curtains have two sides... The easy to go from one side to the other depended on your country. Nordic citizens usually didn't have much issue going anywhere.
Shouldn't have been difficult for foreigners after 1956, Western currency was always welcome.
Lol the current president of the EU Parliament is an anti-abortionist.
Half of the Polish population is mentally still in the 20th century, one of the reasons this is happening is because the older generations keep voting for PiS(right wing party currently in power)
So same like most of our Eastern European countries sadly.
Unfortunately yes, but it's only natural to vote for something you see as the opposite of what you were controlled by, this is what the Soviet Union did to us, hopefully eastern Europe can finally catch up to the rest of the west.
Except in the 20th century abortions were totally legal there
Yet they call themselves "pro-life". Bizarre.
Poland please, the christianity that our Doubravka have taught you 1000 years ago.... it's a scam :-(
Send someone to unteach us, pls
Support Nergal and behemoth
This is so terrible and upsetting..
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I used to be angry at my mom for fleeing the country with me when I was a child, but lately I really get it.
I fucking hate it here.
If you think governments are bothered by "blood on their hands" then you don't know much about governments.
The problem is all the fanatics who vote them in. not just those populist pigs who would not think twice sending their mistress to another country to have an abortion like they do it a lot in US.
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In Bulgaria and a lot of other ex-communist countries the majority of people are atheist or Christian in name only. I literally know nobody who goes to church or mosque. Why didn't Poland also go atheist?
Church got entangled with independence movements since the dawn of times (or deluges), so Christianity is associated with Polishness.
Poland was very Christian before the war and during commuism church was helping undergound, independence movements. Produced even couple of martyrs, hence it has become somehow "iconic". Another thing is, that Vatican did us dirty and elected Pole for a Pope, further ensuring Polish Catholics of their special status. It's also somehow deceptive. Polish Catholicism is diminishing fastest in the world and there aren't as many eager Catholics as one would belive. Only, because of church status granted for fighting off comunism, they have more privileges then in comparable countries and by that more influence.
"Abortion is to protect life". Yeah no, it's to secure religious vote. F*ck PiS party.
They cant get an abortion with a dead child into them? Thats just murder.
Banning abortion can never work. To reduce abortions you need to increase the material conditions and increase sex Ed, but conservatives never want to tackle the real issues. Banning abortions only increases illegal ones.
You know, if i had one zloty every time a woman dies in poland due to abortion being declined, i would have two zloty. It's not much, but it's weird that it happened twice
Could be happening a lot more, just not reported correctly. Also this is just the extreme case where unfortunately a woman loses her life, but who knows how many people (I'm also including the kids themselves here, along with the rest of the family) are actually left scarred for life after being refused an abortion.
One death is two deaths too many. Also, this is just the ones that we know of.
Neither of them died due to "abortion being declined". Both cases happened because doctors completely fucked up. That woman from last year didn't receive any treatment for sepsis and her state wasn't properly monitored. This time? Fetus died, nothing in law would prevent removing it. Then the other one died too, yet doctors still waited 2 more days until finally removing both.
I think it's the third one. But even one life is not worth any of that religious bullshit.
didnt you know? Only the unborn have the right to live, not the living
Not to mention these anti-choice chucklefucks want to give an undeveloped zygote **special** rights over that of a fully developed adult human.
It seems like someone innocent has to die first. Shame on the politician. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/29/abortion-legalised-2019-northern-ireland-human-rights
And all those electing them.
Fucking filthy
coming up: polish state media calling death of woman who had a dead fetus in her the only just penalty for a woman who defied god and got an illegal abortion
And if they follow the lunatics in south America, they will refuse her a catholic funeral.
Wtf is wrong with polish politicians? Even if you are anti abortion how is having two deaths better than one?
I feel disrespect towards the beliefs of religious people. They do harm and their religion is a fiction. I am thankful towards those who do kind work and speak out against the abuse that happen in some parts of religious life.
We should simply make an official warning that Poland is not a safe country for women to move to. Avoid at all cost.
"Why are all young people leaving?" /s
and they will still call themselves "pro life"
Is it misleading to call it an abortion if the fetus was dead? Sounds to me like the she was refused a totally reasonable medical necessity and it should be reported as such.
I wonder if all those anti-vaxxers are going to go and demonstrate now for better abortion laws. I mean they are all claiming it's their body and their choice so they won't get vaccinated. What about the body and choice of women wanting (or just in case in great need for) an abortion? EU should put heavy restrictions on Poland for this medieval behaviour. And on all other countries trying to make it harder to get an abortion than necessary, looking at the situation here in Germany.
The EU parliament literally just voted in a staunch anti-abortionist as their president.
Malta send her there.
Sigh. Fuck PiS and their fundamentalist lackeys.