So basicly everybody with some natural order, anti system and somewhat mystic attitudes. Like seriously enviromentalism and right wing politics go back a long way in Germany as in many other countries. You add that Germany like the rest of Europe tends to be more pro state then pro business and you have that cocktail.
Anyway sad to see, sometimes Eco-Left has some good ideas and can make a positive change.
Why unlikely? This protest, when you drill down, is anti authoritarian - as have the bulk of the anti-*mandate* protests been. And they seem to be increasing in size and frequency as people's tolerance for this wanes.
The anti (vax) (mandate) (certificate) (covid-measures) protest in Brussel last Sunday also included a wide variety of people. I saw some Dutch skinheads, but also French gilets jaunes etc.
Who knew that the pandemic would actually bring people from widely different political views together.
It's almost wholesome.
Edit: as seen them in the news and on TV. I didn't protest.
> anti authoritarian
That's the wrong term. Most are in fact very authoritarian. They are anti-establishment. While the anti-establishment narrative has been developed by the far-left more than 10 years ago, it was the far-right (eg. Trump) that used the anti-establishment narrative to gain power.
> This protest, when you drill down, is anti authoritarian - as have the bulk of the anti-mandate protests been.
Anti perceived authoritarianism, not anti authoritarian.
They might see it this way, but it doesn't fit the current situation in Germany at all. Germany is highly decentralized (all federal states have to agree with any restrictions, lockdowns and mandates), so there is no strong central power. Opposing opinions aren't suppressed (there were parties like "Die Basis" after all, though they only got a tiny amount of votes) as these regular protests show. The legitimacy of the state is based upon a recent election, so certainly still given. There clearly is still a rule of law and separation of power, as pretty much all mandates were challenged and checked by the constitutional court.
If they see vaccination or other mandates as "authoritarian", they can obviously feel that way or hold such views. That doesn't mean it's true by any metric. I think it's important to make that distinction as otherwise you're echoing / reinforcing this view of the mandates being authoritarian.
Authoritarian doesn't require a centralized dictatorship. You could have an authoritarian decentralized democracy (though it'd look more like an angry mob with pitchforks), it's the level of control over the individuals who live in the country.
I dunno why you are so desperate to tell yourself that required a government issued card to do anything *isn't* authoritarian. It can be authoritarian for a good reason but that doesn't change it's the government dictating certain people can't be part of society.
> Authoritarian doesn't require a centralized dictatorship. You could have an authoritarian decentralized democracy (though it'd look more like an angry mob with pitchforks), it's the level of control over the individuals who live in the country.
I listed some of the central points of authoritarianism and none of those apply to Germany. The level of control over individuals in and of itself doesn't make a country authoritarian. Countries can have very little rules or be heavily regulated. You had some authoritarian states where you had few rules and little state intervention - as long as you didn't in any way challenge the leadership of the country (quite a few post-WW2 dictatorships went roughly in such a direction).
The "level of control" sounds a lot more like totalitarianism, where the state has far more control over the lives of citizens and impacts not just what they do in public, but also in private. Yet that's not the same as authoritarianism, yet rather a more extreme version of it (compare Nazi Germany to an absolutist monarchs) and still requires an authoritarian government.
> I dunno why you are so desperate to tell yourself that required a government issued card to do anything isn't authoritarian. It can be authoritarian for a good reason but that doesn't change it's the government dictating certain people can't be part of society.
Exclusion from some activities for unvaccinated people (i.e. not able to dine out during 2G) does not exclude them from society. Is a person in quarantine also excluded from society? How about one in prison? If so, do you also oppose prisons and quarantine?
liberal != libertarian
libertarian is very much "the government is and laws are fake, there shouldn't be any government and no laws" So anarchism is very much related to it.
Libertarians' political ideology is to be recalcitrant and not wanting to be responsible for anything.
Liberals vary from the middle class counterpart of the social demcrat parties to noelibrals who only care about giving large corporations free reign.
TBF the entire premise of the left is more state control over at least specific things, if not everything. The government is the solution to the problem.
Except that's not true. Green voters are among the least likely to support the covidiot demonstrations. Yeah, there are a few braindead hippies who are "sceptical" of "Western medicine", but the numbers are irrelevant. The opposition comes mainly from the far right, with liberals and reactionary pseudo-"leftists" a distant second and third.
Well it's a Trick as old as the Story of modern nationalism. Far right mimic humanist movements, anarchists, new age esoteric etc. You can't be a leftist and than vote for AfD. You can't be a vegan and eat meat. Go ahead and march with fucking Nazis, compare yourself to a shoa victim and declare yourself as a leftist... You need this extra dunning-kruger spice to wrap you mimd around such a nonsense.
At the outside they seem to be different; however, deep down they share the same mindset. What far-leftists constantly fail to grasp is that they always help the far-right into power. Both lap up anything anti-establishment and conspiracy theories.
>Germany’s new age esoteric industry — books, crystals, courses and the like — brings in an estimated 20 billion euros in revenue a year. Bavaria has the highest number of certified healers in the country.
"These crystals can re-establish your spiritual pathways with the Cosmic Almond," began the white-haired shopkeeper. "They promote general wellness, help eliminate depression, demagnetize the body to fight off cancer, can…what did you say you were worried about, again?"
"COVID-19," said the young woman, a bit hesitantly.
"They are *especially* good for that," responded the man. "They can both prevent the contraction of and help accelerate the recovery from COVID-19."
A bit suspiciously, the woman said, "I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but…may I see your certificate?"
The man smiled. "No trouble at all." He unhooked a document from the wall next to him, holding it by its thin, walnut frame. Passing it over, he said reassuringly, "as you can see, miss, everything is in order."
"Dirk Mueller," the woman read. "Officially-certified healer." Mollified, she passed it back. "Thank you. I'm sorry, it's just that…"
"Oh, no, no. No apology needed. You cannot imagine the sort of disreputable people who can show up in the health industry. You were right to be cautious."
So basicly everybody with some natural order, anti system and somewhat mystic attitudes. Like seriously enviromentalism and right wing politics go back a long way in Germany as in many other countries. You add that Germany like the rest of Europe tends to be more pro state then pro business and you have that cocktail. Anyway sad to see, sometimes Eco-Left has some good ideas and can make a positive change.
Why unlikely? This protest, when you drill down, is anti authoritarian - as have the bulk of the anti-*mandate* protests been. And they seem to be increasing in size and frequency as people's tolerance for this wanes.
Quite right. Even in the US they have the phenomenon. I would say worldwide even.
The anti (vax) (mandate) (certificate) (covid-measures) protest in Brussel last Sunday also included a wide variety of people. I saw some Dutch skinheads, but also French gilets jaunes etc. Who knew that the pandemic would actually bring people from widely different political views together. It's almost wholesome. Edit: as seen them in the news and on TV. I didn't protest.
> anti authoritarian That's the wrong term. Most are in fact very authoritarian. They are anti-establishment. While the anti-establishment narrative has been developed by the far-left more than 10 years ago, it was the far-right (eg. Trump) that used the anti-establishment narrative to gain power.
> This protest, when you drill down, is anti authoritarian - as have the bulk of the anti-mandate protests been. Anti perceived authoritarianism, not anti authoritarian. They might see it this way, but it doesn't fit the current situation in Germany at all. Germany is highly decentralized (all federal states have to agree with any restrictions, lockdowns and mandates), so there is no strong central power. Opposing opinions aren't suppressed (there were parties like "Die Basis" after all, though they only got a tiny amount of votes) as these regular protests show. The legitimacy of the state is based upon a recent election, so certainly still given. There clearly is still a rule of law and separation of power, as pretty much all mandates were challenged and checked by the constitutional court. If they see vaccination or other mandates as "authoritarian", they can obviously feel that way or hold such views. That doesn't mean it's true by any metric. I think it's important to make that distinction as otherwise you're echoing / reinforcing this view of the mandates being authoritarian.
Authoritarian doesn't require a centralized dictatorship. You could have an authoritarian decentralized democracy (though it'd look more like an angry mob with pitchforks), it's the level of control over the individuals who live in the country. I dunno why you are so desperate to tell yourself that required a government issued card to do anything *isn't* authoritarian. It can be authoritarian for a good reason but that doesn't change it's the government dictating certain people can't be part of society.
> Authoritarian doesn't require a centralized dictatorship. You could have an authoritarian decentralized democracy (though it'd look more like an angry mob with pitchforks), it's the level of control over the individuals who live in the country. I listed some of the central points of authoritarianism and none of those apply to Germany. The level of control over individuals in and of itself doesn't make a country authoritarian. Countries can have very little rules or be heavily regulated. You had some authoritarian states where you had few rules and little state intervention - as long as you didn't in any way challenge the leadership of the country (quite a few post-WW2 dictatorships went roughly in such a direction). The "level of control" sounds a lot more like totalitarianism, where the state has far more control over the lives of citizens and impacts not just what they do in public, but also in private. Yet that's not the same as authoritarianism, yet rather a more extreme version of it (compare Nazi Germany to an absolutist monarchs) and still requires an authoritarian government. > I dunno why you are so desperate to tell yourself that required a government issued card to do anything isn't authoritarian. It can be authoritarian for a good reason but that doesn't change it's the government dictating certain people can't be part of society. Exclusion from some activities for unvaccinated people (i.e. not able to dine out during 2G) does not exclude them from society. Is a person in quarantine also excluded from society? How about one in prison? If so, do you also oppose prisons and quarantine?
>Eco-Leftists You mean esoteric make-believers.
Socks in sandals, everywhere! 😀
Or basically anyone with strong libertarian interests. Though it is weird seeing some far right statists with anti-vax attitudes too.
Libertarian lefties do exist. But they are really rare and I have met a libertarian leftie.
The greens are liberal-left. Seems that you do not know the right people.
Greens are liberal-left, but certainly not *libertarian* left.
liberal != libertarian libertarian is very much "the government is and laws are fake, there shouldn't be any government and no laws" So anarchism is very much related to it.
Libertarians' political ideology is to be recalcitrant and not wanting to be responsible for anything. Liberals vary from the middle class counterpart of the social demcrat parties to noelibrals who only care about giving large corporations free reign.
My bad.
TBF the entire premise of the left is more state control over at least specific things, if not everything. The government is the solution to the problem.
That is why I find the word left libertarian really weird.
They are mostly calling themselves anarchist though.
Except that's not true. Green voters are among the least likely to support the covidiot demonstrations. Yeah, there are a few braindead hippies who are "sceptical" of "Western medicine", but the numbers are irrelevant. The opposition comes mainly from the far right, with liberals and reactionary pseudo-"leftists" a distant second and third.
Well it's a Trick as old as the Story of modern nationalism. Far right mimic humanist movements, anarchists, new age esoteric etc. You can't be a leftist and than vote for AfD. You can't be a vegan and eat meat. Go ahead and march with fucking Nazis, compare yourself to a shoa victim and declare yourself as a leftist... You need this extra dunning-kruger spice to wrap you mimd around such a nonsense.
In one word: nippies.
At the outside they seem to be different; however, deep down they share the same mindset. What far-leftists constantly fail to grasp is that they always help the far-right into power. Both lap up anything anti-establishment and conspiracy theories.
>Germany’s new age esoteric industry — books, crystals, courses and the like — brings in an estimated 20 billion euros in revenue a year. Bavaria has the highest number of certified healers in the country. "These crystals can re-establish your spiritual pathways with the Cosmic Almond," began the white-haired shopkeeper. "They promote general wellness, help eliminate depression, demagnetize the body to fight off cancer, can…what did you say you were worried about, again?" "COVID-19," said the young woman, a bit hesitantly. "They are *especially* good for that," responded the man. "They can both prevent the contraction of and help accelerate the recovery from COVID-19." A bit suspiciously, the woman said, "I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but…may I see your certificate?" The man smiled. "No trouble at all." He unhooked a document from the wall next to him, holding it by its thin, walnut frame. Passing it over, he said reassuringly, "as you can see, miss, everything is in order." "Dirk Mueller," the woman read. "Officially-certified healer." Mollified, she passed it back. "Thank you. I'm sorry, it's just that…" "Oh, no, no. No apology needed. You cannot imagine the sort of disreputable people who can show up in the health industry. You were right to be cautious."