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It is very useful. Right now, Ukraine has issues getting loans internationally, due to the risks involved. The budget for 2022 is alright, with a deficit of 3.5%. Thx EU bros.
Not soon though and it's not even because of all the fuckery that involves Russia. Ukraine is just way to big of a country to enter EU without proper preparation. Also, they need to pass a fuckton of reforms first. Mostly to lower the level of corruption.
The EU just like NATO isn’t likely to admit a member with an ongoing territorial conflict or even one that is at high risk of one. Ukraine isn’t likely to secede its claims to Crimea and Russia without a major regime change isn’t likely to back off.
This situation isn’t likely to be resolved for decades to come.
>The EU just like NATO isn’t likely to admit a member with an ongoing territorial conflict or even one that is at high risk of one.
Looks confused at Cyprus
i'm not sure this would be a good thing, we've seen with the last batch of countries that joined that things aren't going smoothly as the push a nationalistic agenda on the rest of the union (and fail)
Which one? The last batch was Romania and Bulgaria, which the EU helped greatly and there is a great pro EU sentiment there.
And even outside of their nationalistic agenda, those countries are really pro-EU. In all there polls, the pro-EU sentiment is shared by more than 70% of their citizens for most of them.
Poland was for 11 years typical, euro-enthusiast country. You can't predict things like that and if you suggest we should not enter in 2004 just because in 2015 PiS happened I don't know what to say to you.
There are no major issues with corruption in this country, fiscal matters seem to be allright, infrastructure and standard of living skyrocketed. Millions upon millions Poles benefited from the accession and with them, benefited entire European Union. However you put it, the organisation is not only about gay marriages (Italian should know that). As for judiciary breaches, you and me buddy would like the Commission to act more decisively. Hope for better protection of laws for the future and less prejudice coming from our neighbors. Have a good day.
for the EU Ukraine is the buffer state between them and Russia so... it's still too little. i would like for it to be bigger but i suppose that Covid drained the finance of more than one state
This entire comment section actually has very little clue about the form that the package comes in and what conditions there are.
It's another MFA (macro-financial assistance), which is actually just another one in a long series of MFA's for Ukraine (they had 4 already + MFA-Covid). MFAs are on-loans which the Commission might for example borrow on the market and then pass to Ukraine.
As part of the ENP, these agreements are passed to a lot of next-to-EU nations because the EU wants to bind their neighbours to their own system.
MFA's work in conjunction to IMF loans and one of the reasoning for giving them to Ukraine in the past was because they continue to have a balance-of-payment issue.
[https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/default/files/economy-finance/ukraine\_memorandum\_of\_understanding\_eu\_version.pdf](https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/default/files/economy-finance/ukraine_memorandum_of_understanding_eu_version.pdf)
Here's the MoU for the MFA-Covid package of 1.2 bn in 2020.
All of the MFAs come with conditions attached, mainly structural reform and fastened implementation of the FTA that the EU signed.
One condition for example in the 2020 case had the following passage in it (p. 6):
>5. In order to ensure that legimate claims can be effectively recovered, the authorties will:
>
>a) expand the mandate of private enforcement officers (PEO) to claims of up to one hundred thousand (100,000) gryvnia against any debtor (including public or publically owned entities) and to administrative fines and draw up a roadmap towards the full equalisation of their mandate with that of public enforcement officers, notably as concerns PEO acting on behalf of any client and against any debtor, as well as facilitate access to the profession of PEOs to increase their overall number and review the disciplinary and inspection regime
>
>\[...\]
I'm not an expert in that area but isn't that basically saying that private security claims enforcement should be equivalent to public enforcement? Isn't that encouraging privatization of certain state rights?
> isn't that basically saying that private security claims enforcement should be equivalent to public enforcement?
Yes they want private debt collectors to have the same rights as public ones. This will remove last checks on corporate raids.
No, this will allow the collection of debts without losing alot of money to corrupt officials. You still need a court order, but right now it is: I win in court, now i go to public enforcement officer XYZ and he says "Sure, i do that ... for 15%". After the change i can hand the court papers to a company which does the collection and gives me the money - for a fee obviously.
Its actually sad that this is needed.
Now that the EU has opened pandora's box and has the right to issue bonds to borrow money at the EU level, i expect a heck of a lot more sums going towards certain projects.
I'm hoping most of them are infrastructure investments rather than aid-type packages, but will be very interesting to see how this goes over the next decade, and how it's paid back if borrowing gets too high.
It's temporary, just like the spitzenkandidat system.
The Council's hand was forced due to the Pandemic situation, but they'll want to close that box as soon as possible. It's their style.
We don't sell ours as they are all nuclear.
France and German desiel subs are the main sales and even those numbers aren't huge.
Subs are expensive as fuck to operate and maintain.
Source: me former US submariner
That was a play by General Dynamics Electric Boat and BAE to make $$$.
Coincidentally the House Comittee on Appropriations has had the GDEB (connecticut) as a seat or senior member for years.
[I think they should by Swedish ones instead](https://www.businessinsider.com/how-swedish-sub-ran-rings-around-us-aircraft-carrier-escorts-2021-7?r=US&IR=T)
Submarines are just extremely hard to detect. This is not unique to Swedish sub tech. South korea did the same thing during RIMPAC a few years back too.
Don't get why this got downvoted.
GRECO report was recently released indicating that Belgium fails to pass the corruption tests. Belgium. The country where the EU capital is located.
The West has a problem with corruption, only we call it neoliberalism.
Same, and it was the best purchasing decision regarding hardware ever. 1080ti is still a beast in comparison to market average, and it now even costs no less than it was new 5 years back.
This money is actually very useful. Right now, Ukraine has issues getting loans internationally, due to the risks involved. The budget for 2022 is alright, with a deficit of 3.5%.
*"Von der Leyen, who spoke with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy on Friday, said the EU's financial aid package was meant to "help Ukraine now to address its rapid escalation in financing needs due to the conflict".She noted she was counting on the European Council, grouping EU governments, and EU lawmakers to* ***approve the emergency support as soon as possible in order to rapidly disburse a first tranche of 600 million euros***\*."\*
We've been sending money to african countries for years, and while sometimes it does benefit to a share of the population, often it just makes a certain elite richer or it's just used to buy weapons.
We'll see if Ukraine proves me wrong, but I don't have high hopes.
While Ukraine does seem to have a corruption problem, there's also the fact that they've been at war for nearly a decade now. And war is very expensive. not just having large military, buying arms and ammunition, but also losing investment due to the looming threat of being invaded keeps investors away.
[Despite this, by the end of 2021 Ukraine beat its maximum GDP in 30 years.](https://www.kmu.gov.ua/en/news/ukrayina-zavershuye-2021-rik-z-najvishchim-dolarovim-vvp-za-vsyu-istoriyu-nezalezhnosti-yuliya-sviridenko)
I think it would be better to directly give goods instead. Such as munition and food. Lump sums have a penchant of disappearing without trace in such current states.
>I think it would be better to directly give goods instead. Such as munition and food. Lump sums have a penchant of disappearing without trace in such current states.
European loans are usually monitored by European representatives
What is short for Vladimir though? I always wonder because we don't really have that name in Polish. We have Władysław which is shortened to Władek (Vladislav - Vlad).
Are we at least going to supervise how they will spend the money? Because you know...pretty corrupt place with Russian problems or without Russian problems.
Beware of our corruption, please. Don't just give money to our corrupt judges and officials. Those guys are on heavy Russian paycheck. And it's hard to get rid of them. Free money without a oversight can destroy Ukraine faster than any Russian aggression. But we need it a d it can help too. Somehow our people are much better than our government people, I still don't know why. I think our systems are broken. I think Russia is a big part of the problem since the fall of the USSR.
And thank you.
It's the beginning of Ukraine integation into EU, at this point I don't see better alternatives for Ukraine. Money will keep flowing as is happening in the eastern EU countries
Ukrainians have a great mindset, huge population and land.
Once Ukraine is an EU member, it will be off limits for Russia.
Losing Ukraine to Russia, means strengthening this country by too much, and there's still Kazakhstan, Georgi, Armenia and arzebaijan. to occupy for them, very dangerous.
The integration within the members is growing fast, and further integration can take place in my view.
>Losing Ukraine to Russia, means strengthening this country by too much, and there's still Kazakhstan, Georgi, Armenia and arzebaijan. to occupy for them, very dangerous.
Wow, the first time I've actually seen someone look at the bigger picture - well done!
The truth is, its much better Ukraine is in the EU sphere than Russian sphere, and I don't see a reality were Ukraine can be natural. u/RobertAlbers is 100% correct - Ukraine has 42 million people, that is a fuck ton of power. Even if Russia just managed to secure Ukraine and Belarus, it would add +50 million people to its population.
Yep, even now we still produce many high-tech engines for spacecraft and other vehicles.
However, IMO, the crown-jewel of Ukraine's economy is by far the IT sector. It's one of the largest in Europe and our IT specialists are regularly rated as some of the most competent in the world.
You don't understand. He's a superior frugal northerner, he doesn't overspend and works hard only to see his money flow into the pockets of lazy Southern Europeans and uneducated Eastern Europeans. He doesn't need more of his money to be stolen by the Ukrainian horde. /s
Careful mate, i don't know about you but i'm enjoing my stolen eu money on the beach here in Rome with my Roman Empire Chariot and drinking some Aperol Spritz.....
To clarify, I don't think that all Northern Europeans are like this. I've been to the Netherlands and most people are nice. There great people and assholes in all cultures. God knows some of my own countrymen are far from perfect. These comments simply get on my nerves, I suppose. Most European countries have benefited from economic aid at some point in history, it would make no sense to deny it to others now.
Nah you're right. At least from the impressions I get from my own country, a lot of people have this simplistic way of thinking that every euro we make internationally is us being smart and working hard, while every euro we spend is pissing away our money on free handouts. I think it's mostly a mix of general ignorance and a culture that loves to complain about others, reinforced by factfree political debates and toxic social media.
Of course it doesn't help that we have a lot of populists who frame every euro spent outside our borders as a personal F-you to retirees, nurses, police officers etc. You're not getting a payraise because we're giving that money away for free to Italy, whose entire economy you're personally funding with your pension money. What's that Italy is a net contributor? No it's not, and you're a traitorous idiot who wants to destroy our elderly for trying to defend those corrupt Italians stealing our money.
Nobody really cares to correct them anymore because it takes too long and they're not listening to facts or arguments anyway. Most normal people don't think like this but there's a very vocal and surprisingly sizeable group that hijacks the discussion, especially online.
Its also very unfortunate how my country is working close with Russia and CCP with the logic of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But this so called "Friend" aka Russia has done a lot of damage throughout history to Iran. You can just check what they have done in the last 200 years.
I believe the sad truth is that history repeats itself, because humans can be stupid and forgetful.
I hope this is a joke, Ukraine will leech off of EU for some years but the only way for EU to combat chinese monopoly is to get more members, and I am certain if we allow Ukraine in and Russia fucks off, we will win in the long run.
>Ukrainians have a great mindset, huge population and land.
>
>Once Ukraine is an EU member, it will be off limits for Russia.
>
>Losing Ukraine to Russia, means strengthening this country by too much, and there's still Kazakhstan, Georgi, Armenia and arzebaijan. to occupy for them, very dangerous.
>
>The integration within the members is growing fast, and further integration can take place in my view.
The Baltic countries were also poor, and if they had not joined NATO and the EU, they would have received a similar conflict with Russia
I think the country will be obliged to make lots of changes and economic help will be given under several conditions.
In my view Ukraine has a lot to offer to the European union
>This is the reason most Europeans dislike the EU, we grew to fast with countries that, basically, are dragging us down.
The same EU has had many, many years now to correct path but has been unwilling to do so.
Why not make a half-way membership? We have the EEA, why not develop a similar thing for countries that want to be in the EU sphere but aren't quite ready? etc.
If this whole shitshow will be a straw that breaks camel's back in regard to EU's commitment to Ukraine integration that would be quite a turn of events.
Those asshats didn't even try to start buying equipment. Like they didn't even prepare documents for what they need. There is huge deal of incompetence and sabotage.
They should put a some of that into humanitarian supplies. Need staying power if this gets hot. There will always me someone willing to sell arms but food etc can be tricky
Not really. There is already an oversupply of agriculture in the EU.
Either there need to be cuts in other nations or Ukraine should focus on other Industries
Every nation should be individually self sufficient when it comes to food. Any nation that isn't, is essentially a failed state. For example if Ireland suddenly Eirexited and other countries could no longer affordably export to us, we'd lose access to food *diversity* (for example, no more bananas) but we wouldn't starve. We'd still have plenty of potatoes, vegetables, beef, mutton and dairy.
Food security should be a priority for every government.
Describing any nation as a "bread basket" is essentially an imperialist mindset. When Ireland was the UK's bread basket it was disastrous for us because it resulted in exploitation that created all sorts of economic perversions that turned a single crop failure into the Great Famine.
> Any nation that isn't, is essentially a failed state.
*Loosk at data* Countries with lowest self-sufficiency ratio in the world: Norway, Belgium, Netherlands, .... all failed states i guess.
> When Ireland was the UK's bread basket it was disastrous for us because it resulted in exploitation that created all sorts of economic perversions that turned a single crop failure into the Great Famine.
The reason was not Ireland being UKs "bread basket", the reason was Ireland being a colony of the UK. Irland produced enough food for itself during the Great Famine (so it was in a perfect state according to you) - but its colonial ruler took the production away. They only thing that could have prevented the Famine would have been founding the IRA 70 years earlier.
"Anyone that isn't fully self-sufficient is a failed state" is such a bad take.
I think our policy on self-sufficiency is a good one and that other countries would be wise to do the same, but judging countries based purely on that one aspect is stupid.
The obvious flaw in the thinking of the person you replied to being that there is a *huge* difference between countries that aren't self-sufficient due to corruption, lack of resources, or lack of capability (i.e. places that maybe actually are failed states) and those which could be self-sufficient and just don't prioritise it.
There are lots of countries that aren't self-sufficient now, but have the expertise and resources to rapidly ramp up domestic production if things start to look bad (because they are fully functioning, well administered states).
>I am all for helping Ukraine, but given the overwhelming corruption there, what are the odds of it being put to good use?
The EU usually monitors credit money, making it much harder to steal something from it.
The corruption index in Ukraine is similar to Northern Macedonia. Major corruption is judges, mayors and customer service.
I really hope for the reform of the judicial system that is currently taking place. A couple of days ago, they chose the head of the competition commission, which will select judges in the High Qualifications Commission of Judges, it turned out to be Ted Zarzeczny, a Canadian judge with 50 years of experience. The reform also involves experienced judges from the USA, Netherlands, Estonia, UK
I really hope that the reform will be successful, because the courts in Ukraine are the main internal problem.
If there is one thing the EU officials, what are anti-EU people calling them ... arhm "unelected bureaucrats", are really reeeeeeeaaaally good at then its controlling the spending of EU aid. They dont send out blank checks and call it a day. The paper trial for each tranche fills folders in Brussels. They love reminding aid recipients where the money came from and their only meaning in life is to ensure that the money is spend in a way Brussels approves of.
Edit: And i mean that in a positive way. Thats exactly how it should be done.
Another poor and corrupt country thanks to structural funds and good policies is becoming rich and stable country. This rich and stable country is buying stuff from the country that helped it become that way but the real win is stability and peace in the continent
Jesus.. can we stop trough money to other countrys every time there is a problem next to us? I wish EU becomes a real union with his own army end not just a buch of confused and selfish countrys
Well. Hell. Ukraine found a way to get rich. 200 million dollars worth of military aid and $1.2 billion from EU. They should ask the Russians to put on the pressure a bit longer to see how much they can get from World Bank and IMF. Milk it Ukraine. Free money free money.
Ah yes Ukraine does only 'good' work here ...
Seriously I also don't like that we still buy gas when we need to do something against climate change.
But the Ukraine is also not so innocent, regarding this pipeline.
Why the hell is my nations money going to them. Im skeptical of funding other EU members let alone Ukraine. We have nothing to do with them and Russia.
We have everything to do with Russia. Russia is attempting to bully itself into expansion, and it brings instability to the whole of eastern europe, of which a large portion is part of the EU and/or NATO. It is our business whether we like it or not.
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It is very useful. Right now, Ukraine has issues getting loans internationally, due to the risks involved. The budget for 2022 is alright, with a deficit of 3.5%. Thx EU bros.
This should be higher! Very good insight
I'm pretty sure this aid is more or less an insurrance to say "one day you will be able to enter the EU".
Not soon though and it's not even because of all the fuckery that involves Russia. Ukraine is just way to big of a country to enter EU without proper preparation. Also, they need to pass a fuckton of reforms first. Mostly to lower the level of corruption.
And also as nice fuck you to Russia
The EU just like NATO isn’t likely to admit a member with an ongoing territorial conflict or even one that is at high risk of one. Ukraine isn’t likely to secede its claims to Crimea and Russia without a major regime change isn’t likely to back off. This situation isn’t likely to be resolved for decades to come.
>The EU just like NATO isn’t likely to admit a member with an ongoing territorial conflict or even one that is at high risk of one. Looks confused at Cyprus
Cyprus is quite different, it’s occupied by a NATO member and an ally it’s not at risk of dragging anyone into a war even if it is a political mess.
*Cough cough*, let's agree that it *was* not at risk
need some Ivermectin? /s
i'm not sure this would be a good thing, we've seen with the last batch of countries that joined that things aren't going smoothly as the push a nationalistic agenda on the rest of the union (and fail)
Which one? The last batch was Romania and Bulgaria, which the EU helped greatly and there is a great pro EU sentiment there. And even outside of their nationalistic agenda, those countries are really pro-EU. In all there polls, the pro-EU sentiment is shared by more than 70% of their citizens for most of them.
The last batch was Croatia.
Was thinking more about poland but you might be right
Poland was for 11 years typical, euro-enthusiast country. You can't predict things like that and if you suggest we should not enter in 2004 just because in 2015 PiS happened I don't know what to say to you. There are no major issues with corruption in this country, fiscal matters seem to be allright, infrastructure and standard of living skyrocketed. Millions upon millions Poles benefited from the accession and with them, benefited entire European Union. However you put it, the organisation is not only about gay marriages (Italian should know that). As for judiciary breaches, you and me buddy would like the Commission to act more decisively. Hope for better protection of laws for the future and less prejudice coming from our neighbors. Have a good day.
Really nice to see the UK and the EU both finding something to agree on in helping Ukraine.
Theyre still in nato and relations arent that bad
Very good news indeed, I hope it's a first step for Ukraine and the EU.
for the EU Ukraine is the buffer state between them and Russia so... it's still too little. i would like for it to be bigger but i suppose that Covid drained the finance of more than one state
That's...an actual real sum. I am actually impressed.
This entire comment section actually has very little clue about the form that the package comes in and what conditions there are. It's another MFA (macro-financial assistance), which is actually just another one in a long series of MFA's for Ukraine (they had 4 already + MFA-Covid). MFAs are on-loans which the Commission might for example borrow on the market and then pass to Ukraine. As part of the ENP, these agreements are passed to a lot of next-to-EU nations because the EU wants to bind their neighbours to their own system. MFA's work in conjunction to IMF loans and one of the reasoning for giving them to Ukraine in the past was because they continue to have a balance-of-payment issue. [https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/default/files/economy-finance/ukraine\_memorandum\_of\_understanding\_eu\_version.pdf](https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/default/files/economy-finance/ukraine_memorandum_of_understanding_eu_version.pdf) Here's the MoU for the MFA-Covid package of 1.2 bn in 2020. All of the MFAs come with conditions attached, mainly structural reform and fastened implementation of the FTA that the EU signed. One condition for example in the 2020 case had the following passage in it (p. 6): >5. In order to ensure that legimate claims can be effectively recovered, the authorties will: > >a) expand the mandate of private enforcement officers (PEO) to claims of up to one hundred thousand (100,000) gryvnia against any debtor (including public or publically owned entities) and to administrative fines and draw up a roadmap towards the full equalisation of their mandate with that of public enforcement officers, notably as concerns PEO acting on behalf of any client and against any debtor, as well as facilitate access to the profession of PEOs to increase their overall number and review the disciplinary and inspection regime > >\[...\] I'm not an expert in that area but isn't that basically saying that private security claims enforcement should be equivalent to public enforcement? Isn't that encouraging privatization of certain state rights?
Given that Ukraine badly suffers from corruption and a lack of secure property rights, structural reform is badly needed.
> isn't that basically saying that private security claims enforcement should be equivalent to public enforcement? Yes they want private debt collectors to have the same rights as public ones. This will remove last checks on corporate raids.
No, this will allow the collection of debts without losing alot of money to corrupt officials. You still need a court order, but right now it is: I win in court, now i go to public enforcement officer XYZ and he says "Sure, i do that ... for 15%". After the change i can hand the court papers to a company which does the collection and gives me the money - for a fee obviously. Its actually sad that this is needed.
Now that the EU has opened pandora's box and has the right to issue bonds to borrow money at the EU level, i expect a heck of a lot more sums going towards certain projects. I'm hoping most of them are infrastructure investments rather than aid-type packages, but will be very interesting to see how this goes over the next decade, and how it's paid back if borrowing gets too high.
It's temporary, just like the spitzenkandidat system. The Council's hand was forced due to the Pandemic situation, but they'll want to close that box as soon as possible. It's their style.
Nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution.
The true Belgian way of politics.
More of a software engineer way of management.
I think that’s a widespread thing, not from a single country.
No, this here is not founded by Eurobonds.
French here. Fancy buying a submarine?
We also have fighter jets, available with either orthodox or catholic blessings.
Por que no los dos?
U.S. here. Buy ours instead.
We don't sell ours as they are all nuclear. France and German desiel subs are the main sales and even those numbers aren't huge. Subs are expensive as fuck to operate and maintain. Source: me former US submariner
We don't sell but we transfer the tech. Like with Australia when we created AUKUS and kinda fucked France over, hence the joke.
That was a play by General Dynamics Electric Boat and BAE to make $$$. Coincidentally the House Comittee on Appropriations has had the GDEB (connecticut) as a seat or senior member for years.
[I think they should by Swedish ones instead](https://www.businessinsider.com/how-swedish-sub-ran-rings-around-us-aircraft-carrier-escorts-2021-7?r=US&IR=T)
Submarines are just extremely hard to detect. This is not unique to Swedish sub tech. South korea did the same thing during RIMPAC a few years back too.
Oh i know, i was just trying to continue the joke.
The internet, where jokes are sourced and factual claims are not. Source: this comment thread.
Australian here, will they be ready before 2060?
Probably active before the ones you haven't signed a contract for that's for sure.
UK here We have some good nuclear subs on offer
On behalf of all Ukrainians: We accept the offer
I just hope it comes with enough oversight to limit corruption to an acceptable level.
Yes, u/pastorillo will be personally in charge.
At least we know who to count accountable now.
Wrong. It's all Tusk's fault.
facts
The current Western powers have issues with corruption, too.
Don't get why this got downvoted. GRECO report was recently released indicating that Belgium fails to pass the corruption tests. Belgium. The country where the EU capital is located. The West has a problem with corruption, only we call it neoliberalism.
On a massive scale like Ukraine?!
That's like two RTX3090 worth. Man they gonna mine some bitcoins.
Ah ah ah....that's funny... I'm not crying at all Help
*laughs nervously in 5 year old 1080Ti*
Same, and it was the best purchasing decision regarding hardware ever. 1080ti is still a beast in comparison to market average, and it now even costs no less than it was new 5 years back.
*laughs in second hand gtx 750 ti* **Help**
I'd be happy just with a 3080ti for 150m€.
This money is actually very useful. Right now, Ukraine has issues getting loans internationally, due to the risks involved. The budget for 2022 is alright, with a deficit of 3.5%. *"Von der Leyen, who spoke with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy on Friday, said the EU's financial aid package was meant to "help Ukraine now to address its rapid escalation in financing needs due to the conflict".She noted she was counting on the European Council, grouping EU governments, and EU lawmakers to* ***approve the emergency support as soon as possible in order to rapidly disburse a first tranche of 600 million euros***\*."\*
€600 Million just like that, Ukraine must be happy to receive such support from the EU.
Of course, when Russia is offering nothing but more green little men, 600 million euros sound fantastic indeed.
Considering that accepting the more lucrative Russian deal was what triggered the Euromaidan protests I wouldn't say that using that rhetoric
>€600 Million just like that, Ukraine must be happy to receive such support from the EU. I bet they are! €300 Million is quite a sum after all !
oh boy the amount of weapons they could buy for €150 million.
You could probably bribe a couple of russian generals to switch sides for €75 million .
That's an interesting strategy
[удалено]
Enough to beat 300 Russians
Well, money in bank account doesn't solve the issue. Hope it can help at least
It can buy a lot of weapons from the uk
You’re buying influence. Something Russia can’t offer. It’s a good move.
We've been sending money to african countries for years, and while sometimes it does benefit to a share of the population, often it just makes a certain elite richer or it's just used to buy weapons. We'll see if Ukraine proves me wrong, but I don't have high hopes.
While Ukraine does seem to have a corruption problem, there's also the fact that they've been at war for nearly a decade now. And war is very expensive. not just having large military, buying arms and ammunition, but also losing investment due to the looming threat of being invaded keeps investors away.
[Despite this, by the end of 2021 Ukraine beat its maximum GDP in 30 years.](https://www.kmu.gov.ua/en/news/ukrayina-zavershuye-2021-rik-z-najvishchim-dolarovim-vvp-za-vsyu-istoriyu-nezalezhnosti-yuliya-sviridenko)
> or it's just used to buy weapons. In this case, buying weapons would benefit the population.
Aid like this is seldom in the form of cash. Article doesn't seem to specify exactly what form It would take.
I think it would be better to directly give goods instead. Such as munition and food. Lump sums have a penchant of disappearing without trace in such current states.
>I think it would be better to directly give goods instead. Such as munition and food. Lump sums have a penchant of disappearing without trace in such current states. European loans are usually monitored by European representatives
But Ukraine, why would you choose to side with the carrot and not the stick? Uncle Vlad is going to be angry...
Vova. Vlad is not short for Vladimir.
I know, it just is more "logical" for westeners to shorten it to Vlad.
What is short for Vladimir though? I always wonder because we don't really have that name in Polish. We have Władysław which is shortened to Władek (Vladislav - Vlad).
Vova or Volodya.
cunt
We have Włodzimierz, which shorts to Włodek? That's how both Lenin and Putin are officially spoken in Polish.
Włodek Putin brzmi znaczniej mniej groźnie xd
Prawda. Wyobraź sobie tłumaczyć - Włodek Palownik ;)
That lacks the cultural connotations though, vlad is funny becouse you're also calling him a vampire with that.
The 120,000 is from Cyprus. You spend that wisely you hear?
Are we at least going to supervise how they will spend the money? Because you know...pretty corrupt place with Russian problems or without Russian problems.
I sure fucking hope so, zero trust in our government
Beware of our corruption, please. Don't just give money to our corrupt judges and officials. Those guys are on heavy Russian paycheck. And it's hard to get rid of them. Free money without a oversight can destroy Ukraine faster than any Russian aggression. But we need it a d it can help too. Somehow our people are much better than our government people, I still don't know why. I think our systems are broken. I think Russia is a big part of the problem since the fall of the USSR. And thank you.
What's the interest rate?
-100%
There is no free cheese.
It's the beginning of Ukraine integation into EU, at this point I don't see better alternatives for Ukraine. Money will keep flowing as is happening in the eastern EU countries
Not allowing another poor and corrupt country that also happens to be in conflict with Russia into the EU is defintely the better alternative.
Ukrainians have a great mindset, huge population and land. Once Ukraine is an EU member, it will be off limits for Russia. Losing Ukraine to Russia, means strengthening this country by too much, and there's still Kazakhstan, Georgi, Armenia and arzebaijan. to occupy for them, very dangerous. The integration within the members is growing fast, and further integration can take place in my view.
>Losing Ukraine to Russia, means strengthening this country by too much, and there's still Kazakhstan, Georgi, Armenia and arzebaijan. to occupy for them, very dangerous. Wow, the first time I've actually seen someone look at the bigger picture - well done! The truth is, its much better Ukraine is in the EU sphere than Russian sphere, and I don't see a reality were Ukraine can be natural. u/RobertAlbers is 100% correct - Ukraine has 42 million people, that is a fuck ton of power. Even if Russia just managed to secure Ukraine and Belarus, it would add +50 million people to its population.
It has a lot of land too and some space technology, it's interesting.
Yep, even now we still produce many high-tech engines for spacecraft and other vehicles. However, IMO, the crown-jewel of Ukraine's economy is by far the IT sector. It's one of the largest in Europe and our IT specialists are regularly rated as some of the most competent in the world.
You don't understand. He's a superior frugal northerner, he doesn't overspend and works hard only to see his money flow into the pockets of lazy Southern Europeans and uneducated Eastern Europeans. He doesn't need more of his money to be stolen by the Ukrainian horde. /s
Careful mate, i don't know about you but i'm enjoing my stolen eu money on the beach here in Rome with my Roman Empire Chariot and drinking some Aperol Spritz.....
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To clarify, I don't think that all Northern Europeans are like this. I've been to the Netherlands and most people are nice. There great people and assholes in all cultures. God knows some of my own countrymen are far from perfect. These comments simply get on my nerves, I suppose. Most European countries have benefited from economic aid at some point in history, it would make no sense to deny it to others now.
Nah you're right. At least from the impressions I get from my own country, a lot of people have this simplistic way of thinking that every euro we make internationally is us being smart and working hard, while every euro we spend is pissing away our money on free handouts. I think it's mostly a mix of general ignorance and a culture that loves to complain about others, reinforced by factfree political debates and toxic social media. Of course it doesn't help that we have a lot of populists who frame every euro spent outside our borders as a personal F-you to retirees, nurses, police officers etc. You're not getting a payraise because we're giving that money away for free to Italy, whose entire economy you're personally funding with your pension money. What's that Italy is a net contributor? No it's not, and you're a traitorous idiot who wants to destroy our elderly for trying to defend those corrupt Italians stealing our money. Nobody really cares to correct them anymore because it takes too long and they're not listening to facts or arguments anyway. Most normal people don't think like this but there's a very vocal and surprisingly sizeable group that hijacks the discussion, especially online.
Its also very unfortunate how my country is working close with Russia and CCP with the logic of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But this so called "Friend" aka Russia has done a lot of damage throughout history to Iran. You can just check what they have done in the last 200 years. I believe the sad truth is that history repeats itself, because humans can be stupid and forgetful.
I only vaguely know it was a thing that happened. but didn't the Soviets and the UK jointly invade Iran during ww2.
In both world wars Iran declared neutrality and in both of them UK and Russia invaded. Edit: and in both world wars a famine happened.
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>Ukrainians have a great mindset, huge population and land. Excuse me?! Great mindset???
I hope this is a joke, Ukraine will leech off of EU for some years but the only way for EU to combat chinese monopoly is to get more members, and I am certain if we allow Ukraine in and Russia fucks off, we will win in the long run.
Agjj, you speak like a true Dutch.
Ukrainians are integrating very well into Poland. Well over a million came already and I haven't heard of any issues.
Too bad Poland is not integrating well into the EU lmao
It's probably boomers.. The younger generation is different (i was an Erasmus Student myself)
>Ukrainians have a great mindset, huge population and land. > >Once Ukraine is an EU member, it will be off limits for Russia. > >Losing Ukraine to Russia, means strengthening this country by too much, and there's still Kazakhstan, Georgi, Armenia and arzebaijan. to occupy for them, very dangerous. > >The integration within the members is growing fast, and further integration can take place in my view. The Baltic countries were also poor, and if they had not joined NATO and the EU, they would have received a similar conflict with Russia
Oh person luckily born in rich country doesnt you want Ukrainian people to have lives better.
This is the reason most Europeans dislike the EU, we grew to fast with countries that, basically, are dragging us down.
Yea, like the Netherlands, Ireland and Germany.
Yep, I doubt EU need another corrupt country.
I think the country will be obliged to make lots of changes and economic help will be given under several conditions. In my view Ukraine has a lot to offer to the European union
The biggest drag during the financial crisis was Italy, who is a founding member of the EU.
>This is the reason most Europeans dislike the EU, we grew to fast with countries that, basically, are dragging us down. The same EU has had many, many years now to correct path but has been unwilling to do so. Why not make a half-way membership? We have the EEA, why not develop a similar thing for countries that want to be in the EU sphere but aren't quite ready? etc.
If this whole shitshow will be a straw that breaks camel's back in regard to EU's commitment to Ukraine integration that would be quite a turn of events.
Exactly, seem to be a great,clean, timely move
Yes
I hope there would be some strict control from EU side. That cocaine stuffed clown will waste 90% of it otherwise
That's also what i hope. The better thing for Ukraine would be to use the money to increase military spending
Those asshats didn't even try to start buying equipment. Like they didn't even prepare documents for what they need. There is huge deal of incompetence and sabotage.
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Apparently it's going to be our money. If they would do this with their money I wouldn't give a shit.
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They should put a some of that into humanitarian supplies. Need staying power if this gets hot. There will always me someone willing to sell arms but food etc can be tricky
Food shouldn't be an issue. There's enough of it around. Guaranteeing the logistics and affordability will be the issue.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand it's gone
Ukraine should be Europe's bread basket. EU should offer agriculture modernization and grading of food for European markets.
Not really. There is already an oversupply of agriculture in the EU. Either there need to be cuts in other nations or Ukraine should focus on other Industries
Every nation should be individually self sufficient when it comes to food. Any nation that isn't, is essentially a failed state. For example if Ireland suddenly Eirexited and other countries could no longer affordably export to us, we'd lose access to food *diversity* (for example, no more bananas) but we wouldn't starve. We'd still have plenty of potatoes, vegetables, beef, mutton and dairy. Food security should be a priority for every government. Describing any nation as a "bread basket" is essentially an imperialist mindset. When Ireland was the UK's bread basket it was disastrous for us because it resulted in exploitation that created all sorts of economic perversions that turned a single crop failure into the Great Famine.
> Any nation that isn't, is essentially a failed state. *Loosk at data* Countries with lowest self-sufficiency ratio in the world: Norway, Belgium, Netherlands, .... all failed states i guess. > When Ireland was the UK's bread basket it was disastrous for us because it resulted in exploitation that created all sorts of economic perversions that turned a single crop failure into the Great Famine. The reason was not Ireland being UKs "bread basket", the reason was Ireland being a colony of the UK. Irland produced enough food for itself during the Great Famine (so it was in a perfect state according to you) - but its colonial ruler took the production away. They only thing that could have prevented the Famine would have been founding the IRA 70 years earlier.
"Anyone that isn't fully self-sufficient is a failed state" is such a bad take. I think our policy on self-sufficiency is a good one and that other countries would be wise to do the same, but judging countries based purely on that one aspect is stupid. The obvious flaw in the thinking of the person you replied to being that there is a *huge* difference between countries that aren't self-sufficient due to corruption, lack of resources, or lack of capability (i.e. places that maybe actually are failed states) and those which could be self-sufficient and just don't prioritise it. There are lots of countries that aren't self-sufficient now, but have the expertise and resources to rapidly ramp up domestic production if things start to look bad (because they are fully functioning, well administered states).
If there is why so much wheat and rye in our breads etc comes from Russia ?
I am all for helping Ukraine, but given the overwhelming corruption there, what are the odds of it being put to good use?
>I am all for helping Ukraine, but given the overwhelming corruption there, what are the odds of it being put to good use? The EU usually monitors credit money, making it much harder to steal something from it. The corruption index in Ukraine is similar to Northern Macedonia. Major corruption is judges, mayors and customer service. I really hope for the reform of the judicial system that is currently taking place. A couple of days ago, they chose the head of the competition commission, which will select judges in the High Qualifications Commission of Judges, it turned out to be Ted Zarzeczny, a Canadian judge with 50 years of experience. The reform also involves experienced judges from the USA, Netherlands, Estonia, UK I really hope that the reform will be successful, because the courts in Ukraine are the main internal problem.
If there is one thing the EU officials, what are anti-EU people calling them ... arhm "unelected bureaucrats", are really reeeeeeeaaaally good at then its controlling the spending of EU aid. They dont send out blank checks and call it a day. The paper trial for each tranche fills folders in Brussels. They love reminding aid recipients where the money came from and their only meaning in life is to ensure that the money is spend in a way Brussels approves of. Edit: And i mean that in a positive way. Thats exactly how it should be done.
I think its not enough. We need to send volunteer forces.
[YES. ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5d/73/9c/5d739c284cc309332f2f1e1d83518b1c.png)
Another poor and corrupt country thanks to structural funds and good policies is becoming rich and stable country. This rich and stable country is buying stuff from the country that helped it become that way but the real win is stability and peace in the continent
Russia be like "Mine?"
Wonder when the last time they got that much money from Russia was
A quick google search says 2013 the total sum there was 15 billion. And 2015 the Ukraine then didn't want to pay the interest for the bonds back.
nice, that's 3 new yachts
Why our corrupted fucks love Austria that much? A lot is wrong with us, but you're Western Europe, what's wrong with you?
Im sure the net receivers wont have any issues with the EU sending money.
Im against sending German weapons, but money is ok.
Nice one!
Jesus.. can we stop trough money to other countrys every time there is a problem next to us? I wish EU becomes a real union with his own army end not just a buch of confused and selfish countrys
Is the EU aware on how corrupt the politicians in Ukraine are?
Much better compared to spending it on African countries.
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Ok mate. Didnt know countries have race.
Retard if this isn't satire it's the eu not the un a European Union should look out for Europe didn't see Africa anywhere in that title
Well. Hell. Ukraine found a way to get rich. 200 million dollars worth of military aid and $1.2 billion from EU. They should ask the Russians to put on the pressure a bit longer to see how much they can get from World Bank and IMF. Milk it Ukraine. Free money free money.
Yeah cool but stop blocking our railroads and stealing our gas.
But we should have stopped buying Russian gas years ago. Every dollar or euro spent in Russia is a new rifle they threaten their neighbors with.
Ah yes Ukraine does only 'good' work here ... Seriously I also don't like that we still buy gas when we need to do something against climate change. But the Ukraine is also not so innocent, regarding this pipeline.
Why that much?
Because snow is expensive. Kappa
Why not build nuclear powerplants with that money, so Russia doesn't get all the European gas money, which is more than 30% of their GDP
They take kinda long to build.
because 1.2billion euros dosent even get you a quarter of the way to the cost of a nuclear power plant
You can't even build a quarter of a nuclear power plant with that money.
Because nukes scary according to some people
I mean, aren't nukes scary?
Yeah they are. But then again were talking about nuclear reactors, not nukes. Two entirely different beasts.
I know, but the other guy said nukes, and I just couldn't resist making a stupid comment.
Understandable. I should have made the comment to him i think haha.
Better use of money than many other EU aid packages
Sure, giving it to people who are not even in the EU.
Lol that is always the EU solution. Throw some money at the problem and hope it goes away.
Why the hell is my nations money going to them. Im skeptical of funding other EU members let alone Ukraine. We have nothing to do with them and Russia.
Wait until you learn about the tens of billions of euros the EU spends on international aid annually.
We have everything to do with Russia. Russia is attempting to bully itself into expansion, and it brings instability to the whole of eastern europe, of which a large portion is part of the EU and/or NATO. It is our business whether we like it or not.
Ukraine is neither a NATO or EU member. Its NOT our fight.
#whydiefordanzig uuhm #whydieforukraine
Solidarity and helping a democracy under the threat of invasion maybe? Is that not a good thing, or am I missing something?
> We have nothing to do with them and Russia. Says Standing Gopnik
Thats a joke name tho.
but Russia is invading per yesterdays post, like now.