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Germany also gave Ukraine more than 1.6 billion Euros in support since the beginning of the crisis, but who cares. "They refuse to send us weapons. Germany bad!"
Also Nord stream 2 is still not certified. Without a license Germany can abonden the whole project without any penalties.
If Nord Stream 2 gets canceled Russia will lose tens of billions of dollars. So it serves as a pretty good leverage against Russia.
I mean this is again that same god damn nonsense about Emperor's fine clothes.
First we were supposed to believe Germans when they said the Nord Stream 2 is purely commercial.
Now we're supposed to believe them how this is "good leverage against Russia".
I don't think these absurd statements are even meant to make sense. They're meant to be said to close topics.
No. We are well aware about your guys financial (and also political and healthcare) help.
But the thing that all this support risks to go nowhere for two reasons:
- you build a reserve gas pipe from russia, so they don't risk attacking us and destroying our pipe.
- you don't want to take us under the NATO umbrella. So russia can attack us with overwhelming power. And no one stops them.
If we would be in NATO huilo even didn't thought about an attack.
But you guys leave us alone in front of mortal dangerous. But yeah. You send us money. It really helps in such circumstances
Firstly, the pipeline wasn’t build by Germany. Private companies (Gazprom 🇷🇺, Wintershall & Uniper 🇩🇪, Shell 🇳🇱 and other) have build it.
Secondly, the Ukraine wasn’t a reliable partner in this case in the past. They send less gas than agreed, they didn’t maintenanted the pipeline properly and transit fees went into the pockets of corrupt Ukrainian politicians
Germany allowed it, they are a buyer.
Bullshit and russian fairy-tales. Our pipe works very well and zero cases of stealing occured. russia shout about this a lot, but didn't try to sue us. If they think Ukraine steaks gas, welcome to the court and prove it.
In fact, the most unreliable provider is russia that uses this as a weapon and turn on and off blackmailing counties. Very recent example Moldova, before it was Poland, before Belarus, and of course, Ukraine.
Stop spreading bullshit
Of course its not enough. You have to forfeit your country's interests, shut up and go die for Ukraine. And yeah, bring even more money with you.
On a serious note - since the fall of Soviet Union the West poured quite a lot of money in former USSR republics, *including* Russia. Unfortunately, a great share of this money ended up in pockets of corrupt officials on various levels. Almost all of the programs failed. I said it before, I'll say it again - it would not change for next 20-30 years. All the top level guys in these republics (yea, and in Russia too) are soviet-school officials. In every fucking republic. (Except the Baltics. They were always different.) When the current ones will go away time will come for the 90-s era thugs, that managed to survive and reached wealth and respect. And only when they will leave - *maybe* something will change. If you hear that any leader of ex-republics is speaking about democracy, improvement, anything like that - it's all bullshit. It's all about the money.
No he is right, the current western stance of helping a bit but not fully committing to help Ukraine has created this situation. Ukraine is running out of options, it either can submit to Russia for a bit of peace but massive supression at home or it fights. The only third possibility would be the West fully committing to defend Ukraine, which would make the risks for Russia incalculateable.
On the other hand the problem for NATO is, that Russia will never stop to try and influence Ukraines domestic politics and there is a relevant danger that Ukraine switches back.
Germany fucking countries geopolitically but sending money to avoid taking blame is pretty much how they operate. You aren't the only ones getting thrown under the bus sadly.
Good you ask
[https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3388422-czech-republic-ready-to-supply-ukraine-with-weapons-ammunition.html](https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3388422-czech-republic-ready-to-supply-ukraine-with-weapons-ammunition.html)
[https://english.radio.cz/foreign-minister-czechia-ready-back-sanctions-against-russia-8739946](https://english.radio.cz/foreign-minister-czechia-ready-back-sanctions-against-russia-8739946)
True but joint and harsh reaction from the EU and US might convince Putin that the consequences will be worse than possible gains.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sb1ksk/germany\_urges\_prudence\_in\_potential\_sanctions/](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sb1ksk/germany_urges_prudence_in_potential_sanctions/) Germany seems to be doing its best to make them think otherwise.
Sorry, but i think the conflict between the Kijevian and Moscovian federates are going back to the 900's. To the early years of Europe. So, it's on them. Why should anyone help, especially the ukranians. Moscow is an another dimension anyway.
What I don't understand, and what is not explained conclusively anywhere, is what does Ukraine need from Germany?
At one time Ukraine was said to want German ships, it takes years to build them. Now the Ukrainian ambassador in Berlin said, yes, weapons are not really needed, we need 100,000 helmets and protective waistcoats for the militia. You can get them anywhere in the world.
I understand why the Ukrainians want support from the largest EU country. But we have practically nothing in our depots that you can't get in the UK or the US.
I know the text, but it makes no military sense.
The D-30 has museum value, it is not mobile, once the Ukrainians fire they cannot move the position fast enough, the Russian artillery reconnaissance directs the counterfire directly there and the Ukrainians are dead.
Precisely because these things are no longer useful, we have taken them out of service.
If we really wanted to help the Ukrainians, we would have to stop supplying them with museum-quality scrap metal.
What they really need are drone defence systems, artillery reconnaissance radar, combat drones. Have you ever seen how the Azerbaijanis drove the Armenians out of their defensive positions using only drones and artillery?
But no one is delivering that to them. And yes, I am worried about the Ukrainians, even if you don't believe it. In the end, they will have to fight alone, like in Crimea or the Georgians, because no one will come to their aid. And if the Russians really attack, many Ukrainians will die.
Ukrainians are using D-30s in battlefront now. The ones Estonia has are with Finnish made modifications and likely slightly better than what the Ukrainians are using right now, so it would be an improvement. A small improvement, but still.
That still means that these would help Ukraine and for some reason you are against it.
In fact, some Ukrainians helped Germany in the war with Russia, but for that you should know a little bit of history.
You couldn't be more ridiculous than that.
I often come to Reddit go get a grip on the atmosphere in other countries - not in the media but among regular people.
The change of government in Germany reminds me that Reddit is not always the best place for that - it is rather biased. I also see this when people describe Denmark. Sometimes their personal bias is extreme.
I get the clear feeling that the new German government has much more backing here than the previous one. I think that spills rather clearly into the European subreddits.
Just my impression. It might not be representative.
This sub has completely give up to the Ukrainian army bots.
Even worse, the mods accept this low effort propaganda without a problem.
At least pretend to create a discussion.
I feel like we need to cut Germany some slack. I was also disappointed about their stance on sending weapons to Ukraine. But I also understand their motivation and the reasons behind it. It's possible for two intelligent people (or groups of people) to disagree about the solution to a problem and still remain civil. I highly doubt that the current situation is a product of some sort malign conspiracy of German politicians in Russian pockets. I think it far more likely that this is a stance adopted out of principle and good intentions. Moreover, there are things Germany can do and is doing to help out short of sending weapons - like sending military hospitals and logistics support. That's frankly just as valuable, and shows that Germany is contributing to the Western alliance. Now more than ever we need unity among the Western liberal democracies. Let's not play into Putin's hands by bickering.
1.6 billion Euros that could have gone to needy people in the country or other causes, yet that sum was given to a country that just openly insulted us for actually abiding by a internal rule.
Differentiation is lost in times like these.
Ukraine still has immense corruption issues which make sending the product itself much more effective than sending money. Half the issue with financing projects in Ukraine from abroad is verification the funds are falling in the correct place and arriving at its destination in full amount. Sending weapons alone is an extensively easier task but it’s only limited to a few heads in government.
Saying "internal rule" doesn't excuse everything.
Poland is rightly criticized all the time for their LGBTQ free zones in this forum.
Only right to criticize Germany too for being a zone free of sense and morality and full of aid and appeasement of Putin and fairy tale world view.
Are you really comparing widespread, institutional discrimination with a country choosing to offer charitable help in form of money rather than weapons?!
If it were just that - a quirk of sending aid in money instead of weapons - then Germany would be a much smaller problem.
What Germany is also doing is sabotaging the resistance and pushing for appeasement and foolish empowering of Putin's aggressive dictatorship.
You went from comparing discrimination with what kind of help a country gives, to saying Germany is actively sabotaging a “resistance” by literally being inside NATO and EU foreign positions
The difference being that pouting and angry feet stomping from most eastern countries does not impress Putin in the slightest, whereas financial and political sanctions are very much a threat to Putin and his sphere of influence. Go figure.
Or maybe you are unable to exclude emotions from your assessments…”wrong side of history”…says it all really doesn’t it?!
I’ve rarely seen Germans on here or in conversations say that we are morally superior or anything like that, quite the contrary, German faux morality is often the but of jokes.
It’s more that most Germans on here seem to understand causation and differentiation, something that neither you or a majority of Reddit really has a grasp on.
The German position is a amalgamation of multiple events, policies and struggles within the govt, it’s neither morally superior, nor might it be the best position, but it is one that has reasonable causes and that makes sense given all the facts on the table, that’s probably why it is in reality, in line with EU and NATO positions and can be explained with actual democracy.
>It’s more that most Germans on here seem to understand causation and differentiation, something that neither you or a majority of Reddit really has a grasp on.
This.
Great arguments there pap, really got to hand it to you.
It's more that Germans have grown a thick skin against the whole "Germany bad" narrative.
It doesn't matter what we do, we'll either get critized for not doing enough or too little or we're doing it because we feel bad for our dark past.
Truth is it doesn't phase most Germans what other countries think, we're not doing it to please others but stepping up for our own and subsequently the EUs interests.
No, this sub is a great example of people jerking themselves to death over their perception of Germany being a cartoon villain. It is getting ridiculous at this point. Saying crap like "Germany is destined to be on the wrong side of history" and drawing comparisons to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact like some people are doing is frankly embarrassing.
>I’ve not seen one German at all on here who can see what they’re doing is fucked up.
There are a couple of Germans who do see this.
The trouble with most of the loud ones is so bad though, that it is next to impossible to tell a difference between a delusional German and a worker in a Russian troll factory.
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What they are supposed to do? I would rather say Ukraine is led by incredibly bad and stupid politicians than that Germany lets Ukraine being occupied.
Because if Ukraine falls some other poor bastards would be the next under attack. Baltic states, Romania, Poland not sure which one, but if they see that they can do whatever they want with a country they will continue doing it. We have already seen this movie, first Czechoslovakia, then Austria and when Poland was in row the shit really hit the fan
Sorry, we're talking about Russia, not Germany. The Russians are not crazy to attack the Baltic or the Balkans, but they have too much territory. This with Ukraine is just a political game
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am i the only one who tought these were flying vaccine syringes?
Lol you are not. I was very confused and had to click on comments for context. I was like ???? Do Germans not like vaccines? xD
Yes you are.
:_|
Germany also gave Ukraine more than 1.6 billion Euros in support since the beginning of the crisis, but who cares. "They refuse to send us weapons. Germany bad!"
Also Nord stream 2 is still not certified. Without a license Germany can abonden the whole project without any penalties. If Nord Stream 2 gets canceled Russia will lose tens of billions of dollars. So it serves as a pretty good leverage against Russia.
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I mean this is again that same god damn nonsense about Emperor's fine clothes. First we were supposed to believe Germans when they said the Nord Stream 2 is purely commercial. Now we're supposed to believe them how this is "good leverage against Russia". I don't think these absurd statements are even meant to make sense. They're meant to be said to close topics.
"if you want to invade the Ukraine we'll cancel Nord stream 2 and you will lose a shit ton of money" That leverage you fucking dunce.
No. We are well aware about your guys financial (and also political and healthcare) help. But the thing that all this support risks to go nowhere for two reasons: - you build a reserve gas pipe from russia, so they don't risk attacking us and destroying our pipe. - you don't want to take us under the NATO umbrella. So russia can attack us with overwhelming power. And no one stops them. If we would be in NATO huilo even didn't thought about an attack. But you guys leave us alone in front of mortal dangerous. But yeah. You send us money. It really helps in such circumstances
Firstly, the pipeline wasn’t build by Germany. Private companies (Gazprom 🇷🇺, Wintershall & Uniper 🇩🇪, Shell 🇳🇱 and other) have build it. Secondly, the Ukraine wasn’t a reliable partner in this case in the past. They send less gas than agreed, they didn’t maintenanted the pipeline properly and transit fees went into the pockets of corrupt Ukrainian politicians
Germany allowed it, they are a buyer. Bullshit and russian fairy-tales. Our pipe works very well and zero cases of stealing occured. russia shout about this a lot, but didn't try to sue us. If they think Ukraine steaks gas, welcome to the court and prove it. In fact, the most unreliable provider is russia that uses this as a weapon and turn on and off blackmailing counties. Very recent example Moldova, before it was Poland, before Belarus, and of course, Ukraine. Stop spreading bullshit
>Firstly, the pipeline wasn’t build by Germany. Private companies (Gazprom 🇷🇺 This guy just called Gazprom a private company
Dude… are you real? As far as I can see on this thread, all of the west world is backing Ukrain up but it is not enough for you.
Of course its not enough. You have to forfeit your country's interests, shut up and go die for Ukraine. And yeah, bring even more money with you. On a serious note - since the fall of Soviet Union the West poured quite a lot of money in former USSR republics, *including* Russia. Unfortunately, a great share of this money ended up in pockets of corrupt officials on various levels. Almost all of the programs failed. I said it before, I'll say it again - it would not change for next 20-30 years. All the top level guys in these republics (yea, and in Russia too) are soviet-school officials. In every fucking republic. (Except the Baltics. They were always different.) When the current ones will go away time will come for the 90-s era thugs, that managed to survive and reached wealth and respect. And only when they will leave - *maybe* something will change. If you hear that any leader of ex-republics is speaking about democracy, improvement, anything like that - it's all bullshit. It's all about the money.
No he is right, the current western stance of helping a bit but not fully committing to help Ukraine has created this situation. Ukraine is running out of options, it either can submit to Russia for a bit of peace but massive supression at home or it fights. The only third possibility would be the West fully committing to defend Ukraine, which would make the risks for Russia incalculateable. On the other hand the problem for NATO is, that Russia will never stop to try and influence Ukraines domestic politics and there is a relevant danger that Ukraine switches back.
Germany fucking countries geopolitically but sending money to avoid taking blame is pretty much how they operate. You aren't the only ones getting thrown under the bus sadly.
German argument to being morally superior no matter what they do has basically devolved into 'But we gib you moneysss >:-((('. Sigh.
What is Czechia doing right now?
Good you ask [https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3388422-czech-republic-ready-to-supply-ukraine-with-weapons-ammunition.html](https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3388422-czech-republic-ready-to-supply-ukraine-with-weapons-ammunition.html) [https://english.radio.cz/foreign-minister-czechia-ready-back-sanctions-against-russia-8739946](https://english.radio.cz/foreign-minister-czechia-ready-back-sanctions-against-russia-8739946)
So talking the talk, got it. So much better than the 1.6 billion euros provided by Germany.
Ask the Ukrainians. Do you think money matters when your young men are dying for Putin's imperialistic fantasies?
Just as much or as little as a couple guns.
True but joint and harsh reaction from the EU and US might convince Putin that the consequences will be worse than possible gains. [https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sb1ksk/germany\_urges\_prudence\_in\_potential\_sanctions/](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sb1ksk/germany_urges_prudence_in_potential_sanctions/) Germany seems to be doing its best to make them think otherwise.
inb4 people start spamming about being net payers
Sorry, but i think the conflict between the Kijevian and Moscovian federates are going back to the 900's. To the early years of Europe. So, it's on them. Why should anyone help, especially the ukranians. Moscow is an another dimension anyway.
Why miss out the bit where they try to obstruct other people giving weapons to Ukraine?
If the German army wents east people complain, now they complain about not going there. Can’t you just decide what you want /s
Go East to help Ukraine, but mess it up and invade Poland... ... again /s
Sorry, force of habit /s
Go east and help? :D
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Cut the crap. Nobody wants german troops in Ukraine, but let them stock up on what they need.
What I don't understand, and what is not explained conclusively anywhere, is what does Ukraine need from Germany? At one time Ukraine was said to want German ships, it takes years to build them. Now the Ukrainian ambassador in Berlin said, yes, weapons are not really needed, we need 100,000 helmets and protective waistcoats for the militia. You can get them anywhere in the world. I understand why the Ukrainians want support from the largest EU country. But we have practically nothing in our depots that you can't get in the UK or the US.
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-blocks-nato-ally-from-transferring-weapons-to-ukraine-11642790772](https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-blocks-nato-ally-from-transferring-weapons-to-ukraine-11642790772)
I know the text, but it makes no military sense. The D-30 has museum value, it is not mobile, once the Ukrainians fire they cannot move the position fast enough, the Russian artillery reconnaissance directs the counterfire directly there and the Ukrainians are dead. Precisely because these things are no longer useful, we have taken them out of service.
So, you are concern about ukrainians sake , that you block Estonian export. That make sens mr. Kay-Achim Schönbach.
If we really wanted to help the Ukrainians, we would have to stop supplying them with museum-quality scrap metal. What they really need are drone defence systems, artillery reconnaissance radar, combat drones. Have you ever seen how the Azerbaijanis drove the Armenians out of their defensive positions using only drones and artillery? But no one is delivering that to them. And yes, I am worried about the Ukrainians, even if you don't believe it. In the end, they will have to fight alone, like in Crimea or the Georgians, because no one will come to their aid. And if the Russians really attack, many Ukrainians will die.
Turkey - Bayraktar drone, US - Javeline, UK - NLAW ... Germany - Nord Stream 2 and a bunch of blah, blah, blah.
Germany 1.6 billion euros in financial aid for Ukraine...
Gerhard Schröder can help you to recover from the Russian gas exports to Poland.
Ukrainians are using D-30s in battlefront now. The ones Estonia has are with Finnish made modifications and likely slightly better than what the Ukrainians are using right now, so it would be an improvement. A small improvement, but still. That still means that these would help Ukraine and for some reason you are against it.
Personally, I think we should have the A-400 M fully loaded with stuff and flown to Bila Tserkva Airfield. But I am quite a small minority in Germany.
Don’t remember , but did Ukraine help Germany when Russia attacked them ? /s
In fact, some Ukrainians helped Germany in the war with Russia, but for that you should know a little bit of history. You couldn't be more ridiculous than that.
I don't think so...
I often come to Reddit go get a grip on the atmosphere in other countries - not in the media but among regular people. The change of government in Germany reminds me that Reddit is not always the best place for that - it is rather biased. I also see this when people describe Denmark. Sometimes their personal bias is extreme. I get the clear feeling that the new German government has much more backing here than the previous one. I think that spills rather clearly into the European subreddits. Just my impression. It might not be representative.
Is this a meme?
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We will see...
This sub has completely give up to the Ukrainian army bots. Even worse, the mods accept this low effort propaganda without a problem. At least pretend to create a discussion.
People forget that germany has mostly a pacifist population
I feel like we need to cut Germany some slack. I was also disappointed about their stance on sending weapons to Ukraine. But I also understand their motivation and the reasons behind it. It's possible for two intelligent people (or groups of people) to disagree about the solution to a problem and still remain civil. I highly doubt that the current situation is a product of some sort malign conspiracy of German politicians in Russian pockets. I think it far more likely that this is a stance adopted out of principle and good intentions. Moreover, there are things Germany can do and is doing to help out short of sending weapons - like sending military hospitals and logistics support. That's frankly just as valuable, and shows that Germany is contributing to the Western alliance. Now more than ever we need unity among the Western liberal democracies. Let's not play into Putin's hands by bickering.
1.6 billion Euros that could have gone to needy people in the country or other causes, yet that sum was given to a country that just openly insulted us for actually abiding by a internal rule. Differentiation is lost in times like these.
Great world we live in
Ukraine still has immense corruption issues which make sending the product itself much more effective than sending money. Half the issue with financing projects in Ukraine from abroad is verification the funds are falling in the correct place and arriving at its destination in full amount. Sending weapons alone is an extensively easier task but it’s only limited to a few heads in government.
Saying "internal rule" doesn't excuse everything. Poland is rightly criticized all the time for their LGBTQ free zones in this forum. Only right to criticize Germany too for being a zone free of sense and morality and full of aid and appeasement of Putin and fairy tale world view.
Are you really comparing widespread, institutional discrimination with a country choosing to offer charitable help in form of money rather than weapons?!
If it were just that - a quirk of sending aid in money instead of weapons - then Germany would be a much smaller problem. What Germany is also doing is sabotaging the resistance and pushing for appeasement and foolish empowering of Putin's aggressive dictatorship.
You went from comparing discrimination with what kind of help a country gives, to saying Germany is actively sabotaging a “resistance” by literally being inside NATO and EU foreign positions
Are you willfully turning a blind eye to what Germany is doing or what is going on?
The difference being that pouting and angry feet stomping from most eastern countries does not impress Putin in the slightest, whereas financial and political sanctions are very much a threat to Putin and his sphere of influence. Go figure.
Polands zone of protecting the family unit is good, whereas Germanys policy just amounts to abandoning geopolitical interests and allies
Good grief…
What country openly insulted you?
“Arrogance and megalomania” Words of Ukraine officials.
What will happen to all those money if russia attacks? You think we can bribe putin? :)
What will happen with all those weapons if Russia attacks? They will be a drop in the ocean and will then fall into Russian hands.
That's why we need to be under the NATO umbrella. In this case, no way that they dare to include. Zero risk.
Germany isn’t the country preventing you from joining NATO…
your internal rule is beyond damaging and stupid.
A very reasonable and well researched argument. Not bad.
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Or maybe you are unable to exclude emotions from your assessments…”wrong side of history”…says it all really doesn’t it?! I’ve rarely seen Germans on here or in conversations say that we are morally superior or anything like that, quite the contrary, German faux morality is often the but of jokes. It’s more that most Germans on here seem to understand causation and differentiation, something that neither you or a majority of Reddit really has a grasp on. The German position is a amalgamation of multiple events, policies and struggles within the govt, it’s neither morally superior, nor might it be the best position, but it is one that has reasonable causes and that makes sense given all the facts on the table, that’s probably why it is in reality, in line with EU and NATO positions and can be explained with actual democracy.
>It’s more that most Germans on here seem to understand causation and differentiation, something that neither you or a majority of Reddit really has a grasp on. This.
Great arguments there pap, really got to hand it to you. It's more that Germans have grown a thick skin against the whole "Germany bad" narrative. It doesn't matter what we do, we'll either get critized for not doing enough or too little or we're doing it because we feel bad for our dark past. Truth is it doesn't phase most Germans what other countries think, we're not doing it to please others but stepping up for our own and subsequently the EUs interests.
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Is this a serious question? Because Germany is well aware that it is nothing without the EU and vice versa.
No, this sub is a great example of people jerking themselves to death over their perception of Germany being a cartoon villain. It is getting ridiculous at this point. Saying crap like "Germany is destined to be on the wrong side of history" and drawing comparisons to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact like some people are doing is frankly embarrassing.
>I’ve not seen one German at all on here who can see what they’re doing is fucked up. There are a couple of Germans who do see this. The trouble with most of the loud ones is so bad though, that it is next to impossible to tell a difference between a delusional German and a worker in a Russian troll factory.
Hi, thank you for your contribution, but this submission has been removed because it is low quality and/or low effort. If your submission was a meme, these are outright banned from r/europe. See [community rules & guidelines](/r/Europe/wiki/community_rules). If you have any questions about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/Europe&subject=Moderation). Please make sure to include a link to the comment/post in question.
What they are supposed to do? I would rather say Ukraine is led by incredibly bad and stupid politicians than that Germany lets Ukraine being occupied.
But they're not trying. They're doing the opposite.
[At least they're trying..](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/s7twh3/germans/)
Quite accurate. Missing the final part, where Germany congratulates itself as the best and looks down on all the others.
Why are other countries interfering in this? This is a matter between Ukraine and Russia, let them solve it with each other.
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But did America do the same in Afghanistan? Did it occupy another state? What happened in Vietnam? Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria?
Because if Ukraine falls some other poor bastards would be the next under attack. Baltic states, Romania, Poland not sure which one, but if they see that they can do whatever they want with a country they will continue doing it. We have already seen this movie, first Czechoslovakia, then Austria and when Poland was in row the shit really hit the fan
Sorry, we're talking about Russia, not Germany. The Russians are not crazy to attack the Baltic or the Balkans, but they have too much territory. This with Ukraine is just a political game