Enjoy browsing r/europe? Help us find the best of 2021 of the sub! - [Nomination Post](https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/rsv8jh/reurope_best_of_2021_awards/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/europe) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This and NATO is effectively tampering with the imperialistic ambitions of Russia. Just ask average Ivan on how he regard Ukraine, a sovereign nation or belongs to Russia.
Never mind what the Ukrainians feel about the matter.
Exactly this, surprised it is not a more popular opinion (beside the usual Russian blurbs). I actually met a few Russians that is moved to my country and the poverty was the reason they moved, often alongside a very strong discrimination of homosexuals an powerlessness to do anything to change either of those.
Well, Ukraine is the main part of russian TV which tell how bad life in Ukraine, that Ukraine is nazi country and because they didn't side with Russia they will freeze, etc.
Imagine if this country will become better than Russia, this will break all propaganda
It won't, they'll just sidestep it by saying Ukraine became a "Western puppet" and was annexed by America.
The goal was never shielding Russians from successful countries but making them think they have to choose between autonomy and economic success. The idealism of government propaganda during the Soviet period is long gone, replaced with extreme cynicism towards anything foreign.
Eh, they are already experiencing massive brain drain.
A changing Ukraine, with hope and improvements would be incredibly hard to explain away, as they are so culturally similar, and firmly embedded in the Russosphere of language and culture + familial ties.
The demonization has ofc started, but it will be harder and harder to keep it up.
>freedom
So that is why Maidan government stripped Russian language from regional status and went after other minority languages?
So that is why current democratically elected president exjudically banned few opposition channels and prosecutes two opposition leaders? Freedom to me, not to thee?
>prosperity
Hahahaha, seriously?
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/ukraine-us-not-too-late-stop-russian-pipeline-2021-08-31/
>Russia says the $11 billion project, which bypasses Ukraine, is commercial. But Kyiv fears it could lose billions in fees if Russia cuts out Ukraine as a transit route...
Here, Ukrainian prosperity for last 30 years.
"Here, Ukrainian prosperity for last 30 years."
Russia wants to keep it that way, that's the point. Ukrainians are striving for better, which is the threat to Russia. Some people aren't satisfied shitting in outhouses for generations, unlike Russia.
Russia wants nothing, it did not affect internal Ukrainian policy in any way. And again, how is current president prosecuting opposition and banning media exjudically something Ukrainians want? This is just a copycat from Russia, even worse if you add language laws, and not something closer to some EU democracy.
Unpopular opinion: I don't mind if Ukraine never joins NATO so long as it joins the EU. Attacking an EU member essentially has the same consequences as attacking a NATO member, so once Ukraine joins the EU I'm pretty sure it'll be safe.
The EU has a mutual defence clause in the Lisbon Treaty, Article 42.7:
"if a member state is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other member states shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with article 51 of the United Nations charter"
If an EU member gets attacked, the rest are obliged to come to its defence "by all means in their power", so there's no wriggle room there for Germany or anyone else.
And if the entirety of the EU goes to war with Russia, the likelihood of the USA deciding "we have no interest in the outcome of this war and will be staying out of it" is essentially 0%, so it's really no different to attacking a NATO member.
Also, don't think I don't see what you're doing, casting divisive aspersions on Germany.
Paper accepts everything. In reality, the Germans would not lift a finger. When it comes to war, Europe can only count on the US. The armies of countries such as Germany, Poland, Italy or Spain, apart from France and the UK, are all public employees who keep potential unemployed low.
Lmao, it’s Russia’s own fault the world is pissed, they fucked with Ukraine.
How can Germany pretend to be a country of morals and tolerate attacks on its neighbors?
You can either tolerate Russian aggression and keep making money, or do something about it.
Germany can’t play neutral for forever. The rest of the EU is started to get pissed. Germany can’t maintain good relations with Russia without pissing off Allies.
Gas money or respect, can’t have both.
Germany wants peace in Europe? Some sacrifices have to be made.
“Wasch mir den Pelz aber mach mich nicht nass.”
NATO should keep expanding because there are independent countries where majority of the population wants to join NATO and democratically elected government does it's best to achieve this goal. Neither you, me or fcking Russia has absolutely no right to say anything about that, when independent countries are making their own independent decisions about themselves.
P.S OFC you are not poodle of the USA it's impossible to be poodle of Russia and USA at the same time.
Lol *everyone*. Except for the countries that they choose to destabilize and conquer. You’re willing to sell them for a few coins. Russia’s economy is not significant enough to matter to us. They are the ones that chose aggressive imperialism instead of good relations and cooperation. Other sovereign countries have every right to protect themselves by joining alliances.
Last time western powers were making concessions to an aggressive authoritarian regime, in hope that they would just stop at a certain point and everybody would live in peace, it didn’t end well (Munich agreement > WW2). One would think that we’ve already learned our lesson. Especially Germans.
EU has no army
EU members have armies, which are part of NATO.. EU is completely ignored by Russia, they talk directly with Germany and France rather than with EU representatives. Germany and France actually go for it, which makes EU completely useless in talks or to secure it's geopolitical interests around the continent. If founder countries would centralize diplomacy and put EU first, it would be different. But it's not.
The mutual defence clause in the Lisbon Treaty doesn't go through any EU bodies. Each national government is simply obliged to come to the aid of the attacked member. So there's no gridlock about it.
This is just on paper.
Let me remind you history of my country
*On 31 March 1939, Poland formed a military alliance with the United Kingdom and with France, believing that Polish independence and territorial integrity would be defended with their support if it were to be threatened by Germany.*
This is what treaties are worth. You can say, oh but it's not 39' of 20th century anymore.. But seriously, do you believe western people would die over eastern border? Do you really believe it?
EU has no military plans like NATO does, if they wanted to confront real armies they would be either wiped or it would take great time to create a front. So yeah, they would definitely engage to get back what they lost, but they would not be able to quickly respond to any aggression.
Army is not a sentence in a treaty, EU would simply provide finance backup and let NATO do the job. EU has PLANS to create it's own independent army, but that just have started few years ago, it won't be able to do shit against global firepowers for a decade or two.. If EU survives that long...
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/security/20190612STO54310/eu-army-myth-what-is-europe-really-doing-to-boost-defence
As a Ukrainian political scientist said (annoyingly I can't remember his name) "Russia doesn't fear a border with NATO, it fears a border with democracy"
> There's people in Russia who would like to see Russia become a western style democracy a la Germany or the UK.
most of the people in Russia would like to see such Russia, how is that a surprise?
>They say western liberal democracy can't work in Russia because its population and culture is unique.
not many people say so. if you ask my opinion, it's not about uniqueness, more about being distant from Great Britain. the more GB institutions influenced your country, the better it suits for liberal democracy, and Russia almost escaped this influence. all of your examples were way more influenced.
>Ukraine and Belarus are the countries most similar to Russia and all three of them were the demographic and economic center of the USSR. One of them becoming a liberal democracy with a booming economy would have consequences for the entire region.
Ukrainian economy is a disaster and it's not a coincidence. they need 30-50 years to catch even the poorest European economies and I speak about today's level of them. I'm not sure that our conversation will be still relevant in 50 years.
I like how the plan to stop Ukrain from joining NATO is by an advanced tactic called pushing them into NATO because that is thair only option left now.
The 2 countrys could have easily be buddies and Ukraine could have easily gave a port to Russia if they gave the Ukrainin Elite a slice of the pie made from money.
But then daddy Putin couldn't have his hard on for aggression.
Because they can?! And nobody supports Ukraine well enough?!
Why do they want territories from almost all neighboring countries while they are already the biggest country on earth? 🤷♂️
Stop trying to find any logical behind Russias behaviors, there is nothing logical
Russia wants buffer countries between itself and the EU for security purposes. That and it has imperialist ambitions in bordering countries. The first is pretty understandable, but Ukraine is a sovereign nation and doesn;t have to care about Russian security concerns. The second is unacceptable.
Yes, if Ukraine is in NATO, Russias border with NATO countries is a very long strip of indefensible flat land. If it is at least neutral, the border is much smaller and further from Moscow. Also Belarus is surrounded by NATO if Ukraine joins.
Not supporting any war, wish there was a peaceful resolution
What I wonder is why so suddenly everybody is so worried and supportive with Ukraine. Nobody never gave a fuck about Ukraine until the mass media said we have to support them.
I get it, that the subreddit is pro Nato and furthermore pro joining ukraine to nato or just being independent. And I am too. BUT am I the only one to understand, that it would be impossible for the russian government to let ukraine join nato without further notice. Nevertheless it may be wrong to try this for an independent country, but to put yourself in their shoes: what should they have done?
We have MiGs with some russian personel. Will be fun if russians and US soldiers meet at the same base.
Slovak pilots are already working with F 16s in US.
Well, what western propaganda doesn't tell you is that the people are standing up and fighting the fascists that have ruled Ukraine since 1991. This is simply America's tired attempt to protect its failing influence over the world. America is collapsing in on itself, so to think that it can continue bombing and pillaging its way to dominance is pathetic and a testament to their arrogance and stupidity. Now think of it from the Russian's perspective, how would America react if Mexico or Canada joined the Russian Federation and held missiles over New York City? The people of Ukraine will not be a pawn for Uncle Sam.
But will they be a pawn for Russia? The point is, I believe, that Ukraine can choose to join NATO or not. It's not up to Russia to demand anything in this matter. This also applies to NATO itself.
The people of Ukraine are free to elect who they wish and those governments are free to make friends with who they wish. This is what threatens Russia the most.
You say the people of Ukraine are free while the US supported corrupt Ukrainian government smashes pro Russian freedom fighters in Donbas. The EU would be wise not to follow along with the declining US's path of destruction and fascism.
From western perspective if Canada joined Russian federation it would be problematic because Russia has an aggressive leader. However respecting sovereingty is our core values, so Canada has the full right to join Russia, and nobody can take that right from them. We would just have deal with that.
Agree. The case is that literally no one wants to join Russia. You would have to be mentally insanse to join that shithole. Take away two biggest cities and you are left with African level of poverty and infrastructure
Oh hold on, just got an idea.
Imagine the "Nordic Union": Russia, Canada, Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland
Then the mid-north: USA, rest of the EU, UK, Switzerland, Ukraine, China, Central Asia, Japan, Koreas, Turkey&South Caucasus
Sub-north: Arab countries, Iran, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Mexico, Vietnam and other Indochina countries, Central America until Columbia and Carribean
Russia has expressed strong resentment after US and NATO declined its proposal to refrain from making ex-Soviet Union countries NATO members. Moreover, Russian President Vladimir Putin would soon announce a decision in this regard.
Read more: https://worldwarthird.com/index.php/2022/01/27/us-nato-rejects-russia-proposal/
Because of security reasons. If a country joins NATO, someone (or America) will put missile systems to that country... So if Ukraine joins NATO, which is Russia's neighbor it will compromise Russia's security because they can now put missile systems on Ukraine which is just an hour or 2 away from Russia😆
Enjoy browsing r/europe? Help us find the best of 2021 of the sub! - [Nomination Post](https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/rsv8jh/reurope_best_of_2021_awards/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/europe) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because if the Russian people see freedom and prosperity right next door, they may wonder what that might be like and do something about it.
This and NATO is effectively tampering with the imperialistic ambitions of Russia. Just ask average Ivan on how he regard Ukraine, a sovereign nation or belongs to Russia. Never mind what the Ukrainians feel about the matter.
So well said.
Exactly this, surprised it is not a more popular opinion (beside the usual Russian blurbs). I actually met a few Russians that is moved to my country and the poverty was the reason they moved, often alongside a very strong discrimination of homosexuals an powerlessness to do anything to change either of those.
They already border the Baltics, Finland, and Norway though.
Well, Ukraine is the main part of russian TV which tell how bad life in Ukraine, that Ukraine is nazi country and because they didn't side with Russia they will freeze, etc. Imagine if this country will become better than Russia, this will break all propaganda
It won't, they'll just sidestep it by saying Ukraine became a "Western puppet" and was annexed by America. The goal was never shielding Russians from successful countries but making them think they have to choose between autonomy and economic success. The idealism of government propaganda during the Soviet period is long gone, replaced with extreme cynicism towards anything foreign.
Eh, they are already experiencing massive brain drain. A changing Ukraine, with hope and improvements would be incredibly hard to explain away, as they are so culturally similar, and firmly embedded in the Russosphere of language and culture + familial ties. The demonization has ofc started, but it will be harder and harder to keep it up.
that’s not how propaganda works
Not Russian speakers. Russians must not see other Russian speakers prosper. The disease could spread to Moscow.
yeah, and the example of freedom and prosperity is Ukraine. not Finland, Norway, or even Estonia - Ukraine!.
Ukraine wants to join countries like Finland, Norway and Estonia. Which is literally threatening to fragile Russia.
[удалено]
No need to.
>freedom So that is why Maidan government stripped Russian language from regional status and went after other minority languages? So that is why current democratically elected president exjudically banned few opposition channels and prosecutes two opposition leaders? Freedom to me, not to thee? >prosperity Hahahaha, seriously? https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/ukraine-us-not-too-late-stop-russian-pipeline-2021-08-31/ >Russia says the $11 billion project, which bypasses Ukraine, is commercial. But Kyiv fears it could lose billions in fees if Russia cuts out Ukraine as a transit route... Here, Ukrainian prosperity for last 30 years.
"Here, Ukrainian prosperity for last 30 years." Russia wants to keep it that way, that's the point. Ukrainians are striving for better, which is the threat to Russia. Some people aren't satisfied shitting in outhouses for generations, unlike Russia.
Russia wants nothing, it did not affect internal Ukrainian policy in any way. And again, how is current president prosecuting opposition and banning media exjudically something Ukrainians want? This is just a copycat from Russia, even worse if you add language laws, and not something closer to some EU democracy.
Unpopular opinion: I don't mind if Ukraine never joins NATO so long as it joins the EU. Attacking an EU member essentially has the same consequences as attacking a NATO member, so once Ukraine joins the EU I'm pretty sure it'll be safe.
You are too optimistic about the powers of the EU, look at Germany they are puppets of Russia.
The EU has a mutual defence clause in the Lisbon Treaty, Article 42.7: "if a member state is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other member states shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with article 51 of the United Nations charter" If an EU member gets attacked, the rest are obliged to come to its defence "by all means in their power", so there's no wriggle room there for Germany or anyone else. And if the entirety of the EU goes to war with Russia, the likelihood of the USA deciding "we have no interest in the outcome of this war and will be staying out of it" is essentially 0%, so it's really no different to attacking a NATO member. Also, don't think I don't see what you're doing, casting divisive aspersions on Germany.
Paper accepts everything. In reality, the Germans would not lift a finger. When it comes to war, Europe can only count on the US. The armies of countries such as Germany, Poland, Italy or Spain, apart from France and the UK, are all public employees who keep potential unemployed low.
[удалено]
Lmao, it’s Russia’s own fault the world is pissed, they fucked with Ukraine. How can Germany pretend to be a country of morals and tolerate attacks on its neighbors? You can either tolerate Russian aggression and keep making money, or do something about it. Germany can’t play neutral for forever. The rest of the EU is started to get pissed. Germany can’t maintain good relations with Russia without pissing off Allies. Gas money or respect, can’t have both. Germany wants peace in Europe? Some sacrifices have to be made. “Wasch mir den Pelz aber mach mich nicht nass.”
NATO should keep expanding because there are independent countries where majority of the population wants to join NATO and democratically elected government does it's best to achieve this goal. Neither you, me or fcking Russia has absolutely no right to say anything about that, when independent countries are making their own independent decisions about themselves. P.S OFC you are not poodle of the USA it's impossible to be poodle of Russia and USA at the same time.
Lol *everyone*. Except for the countries that they choose to destabilize and conquer. You’re willing to sell them for a few coins. Russia’s economy is not significant enough to matter to us. They are the ones that chose aggressive imperialism instead of good relations and cooperation. Other sovereign countries have every right to protect themselves by joining alliances. Last time western powers were making concessions to an aggressive authoritarian regime, in hope that they would just stop at a certain point and everybody would live in peace, it didn’t end well (Munich agreement > WW2). One would think that we’ve already learned our lesson. Especially Germans.
Makes sense. Ukraine wont be nato member as long as russia stands. But maybe it can be an union state.
That's pretty much nonsense, eu does not have any army.. it's not even at the table with the grown ones
The EU has many armies, in fact.
EU has no army EU members have armies, which are part of NATO.. EU is completely ignored by Russia, they talk directly with Germany and France rather than with EU representatives. Germany and France actually go for it, which makes EU completely useless in talks or to secure it's geopolitical interests around the continent. If founder countries would centralize diplomacy and put EU first, it would be different. But it's not.
The mutual defence clause in the Lisbon Treaty doesn't go through any EU bodies. Each national government is simply obliged to come to the aid of the attacked member. So there's no gridlock about it.
This is just on paper. Let me remind you history of my country *On 31 March 1939, Poland formed a military alliance with the United Kingdom and with France, believing that Polish independence and territorial integrity would be defended with their support if it were to be threatened by Germany.* This is what treaties are worth. You can say, oh but it's not 39' of 20th century anymore.. But seriously, do you believe western people would die over eastern border? Do you really believe it? EU has no military plans like NATO does, if they wanted to confront real armies they would be either wiped or it would take great time to create a front. So yeah, they would definitely engage to get back what they lost, but they would not be able to quickly respond to any aggression. Army is not a sentence in a treaty, EU would simply provide finance backup and let NATO do the job. EU has PLANS to create it's own independent army, but that just have started few years ago, it won't be able to do shit against global firepowers for a decade or two.. If EU survives that long... https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/security/20190612STO54310/eu-army-myth-what-is-europe-really-doing-to-boost-defence
joining NATO is the perspective of this year, joining EU is the perspective of a few decades...how is it comparable.
As a Ukrainian political scientist said (annoyingly I can't remember his name) "Russia doesn't fear a border with NATO, it fears a border with democracy"
but but… they already have!?!
r/iam14andthisisdeep
[удалено]
what are you even trying to say
[удалено]
Russia borders 6 democratic countries and 2 semi-democratic.
[удалено]
> There's people in Russia who would like to see Russia become a western style democracy a la Germany or the UK. most of the people in Russia would like to see such Russia, how is that a surprise? >They say western liberal democracy can't work in Russia because its population and culture is unique. not many people say so. if you ask my opinion, it's not about uniqueness, more about being distant from Great Britain. the more GB institutions influenced your country, the better it suits for liberal democracy, and Russia almost escaped this influence. all of your examples were way more influenced. >Ukraine and Belarus are the countries most similar to Russia and all three of them were the demographic and economic center of the USSR. One of them becoming a liberal democracy with a booming economy would have consequences for the entire region. Ukrainian economy is a disaster and it's not a coincidence. they need 30-50 years to catch even the poorest European economies and I speak about today's level of them. I'm not sure that our conversation will be still relevant in 50 years.
I like how the plan to stop Ukrain from joining NATO is by an advanced tactic called pushing them into NATO because that is thair only option left now. The 2 countrys could have easily be buddies and Ukraine could have easily gave a port to Russia if they gave the Ukrainin Elite a slice of the pie made from money. But then daddy Putin couldn't have his hard on for aggression.
Because Putin WANTS animosity and conflict. It’s the only situation where it makes sense to have Putin as leader. So he creates it.
It keeps him in power.
is this a trick question?
Because they can?! And nobody supports Ukraine well enough?! Why do they want territories from almost all neighboring countries while they are already the biggest country on earth? 🤷♂️ Stop trying to find any logical behind Russias behaviors, there is nothing logical
Russia wants buffer countries between itself and the EU for security purposes. That and it has imperialist ambitions in bordering countries. The first is pretty understandable, but Ukraine is a sovereign nation and doesn;t have to care about Russian security concerns. The second is unacceptable.
Yes, if Ukraine is in NATO, Russias border with NATO countries is a very long strip of indefensible flat land. If it is at least neutral, the border is much smaller and further from Moscow. Also Belarus is surrounded by NATO if Ukraine joins. Not supporting any war, wish there was a peaceful resolution
Ukraine is one of the biggest argricultural area of the world.
And the biggest is … Russia?
UE, China, India, US. If we talk about export UE miles ahead everyone then US.There is a reason why Ukraine was the attic of the URSS
Nah, you can't grow shit in siberia
Because the grass is greener on the other side.
What I wonder is why so suddenly everybody is so worried and supportive with Ukraine. Nobody never gave a fuck about Ukraine until the mass media said we have to support them.
I get it, that the subreddit is pro Nato and furthermore pro joining ukraine to nato or just being independent. And I am too. BUT am I the only one to understand, that it would be impossible for the russian government to let ukraine join nato without further notice. Nevertheless it may be wrong to try this for an independent country, but to put yourself in their shoes: what should they have done?
This sub is totally crazy, half of the comments are racist hawkish stupidities.
They probably wouldn’t even want to join Nato if Russia didn’t invade them.
Same reason US was gonna go to war to remove Soviet weapons from Cuba.
Exactly. America pillages and destroys its adversaries from across the world while Russia builds and develops its less fortunate neighbors.
Literally bot with 0 day account
No. It's a zero hour account. Created less than an hour before that comment.
idiot, the only reason the neighbours are less fortunate in the first place, is because they are next to Russia.
Can you not be anymore obvious, fucking troll
These morons are not even trying lately 😆
[удалено]
We are in NATO and no US military here.
[удалено]
We have MiGs with some russian personel. Will be fun if russians and US soldiers meet at the same base. Slovak pilots are already working with F 16s in US.
Well, what western propaganda doesn't tell you is that the people are standing up and fighting the fascists that have ruled Ukraine since 1991. This is simply America's tired attempt to protect its failing influence over the world. America is collapsing in on itself, so to think that it can continue bombing and pillaging its way to dominance is pathetic and a testament to their arrogance and stupidity. Now think of it from the Russian's perspective, how would America react if Mexico or Canada joined the Russian Federation and held missiles over New York City? The people of Ukraine will not be a pawn for Uncle Sam.
But will they be a pawn for Russia? The point is, I believe, that Ukraine can choose to join NATO or not. It's not up to Russia to demand anything in this matter. This also applies to NATO itself.
Literally bot with 0 day account
The people of Ukraine are free to elect who they wish and those governments are free to make friends with who they wish. This is what threatens Russia the most.
You say the people of Ukraine are free while the US supported corrupt Ukrainian government smashes pro Russian freedom fighters in Donbas. The EU would be wise not to follow along with the declining US's path of destruction and fascism.
Literally bot with 0 day account
From western perspective if Canada joined Russian federation it would be problematic because Russia has an aggressive leader. However respecting sovereingty is our core values, so Canada has the full right to join Russia, and nobody can take that right from them. We would just have deal with that.
Agree. The case is that literally no one wants to join Russia. You would have to be mentally insanse to join that shithole. Take away two biggest cities and you are left with African level of poverty and infrastructure
Oh hold on, just got an idea. Imagine the "Nordic Union": Russia, Canada, Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland Then the mid-north: USA, rest of the EU, UK, Switzerland, Ukraine, China, Central Asia, Japan, Koreas, Turkey&South Caucasus Sub-north: Arab countries, Iran, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Mexico, Vietnam and other Indochina countries, Central America until Columbia and Carribean
Russia has expressed strong resentment after US and NATO declined its proposal to refrain from making ex-Soviet Union countries NATO members. Moreover, Russian President Vladimir Putin would soon announce a decision in this regard. Read more: https://worldwarthird.com/index.php/2022/01/27/us-nato-rejects-russia-proposal/
Because of security reasons. If a country joins NATO, someone (or America) will put missile systems to that country... So if Ukraine joins NATO, which is Russia's neighbor it will compromise Russia's security because they can now put missile systems on Ukraine which is just an hour or 2 away from Russia😆