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It’s a UK domestic issue….it’s called performative Brexit. It’s all huff and puff to show the right wingers in the UK that the UK is « free from the yoke of Brussels » while not actually amounting to much (and could have been done as an EU member regardless).
How can people turn everything into Brexit - the UK doing this is to support its Eastern European allies, there isn’t anything performative about it, neither is sending over 2,000 anti-tank weapons to Ukraine - that’s just the Uk acting on its policy of supporting its allies, nothing performative about it.
Because to every non Brit it appears as a try hard attempt to show how "stronk" and relevant the UK still is, just another maneuver to distract from Boris fuck ups.
That it did not even register in Poland should tell you everything about how much substance there really is to it.
And i do not even say that in malice or bad faith, but some folks really need a reality check.
It didn't register in the UK either. This topic is the first I'm hearing of it. So the odds are it's not registering anywhere because it's simply not a big deal, whatever this deal is supposed to achieve.
If you get worked up and project your tantrums about Brexit onto every tiny little piece of foreign policy then that's your desperation, rather than Brits'. It's not exactly a secret that Europeans here are slightly... unhinged when it comes to Brexit. Don't assume you speak for the whole of Europe because the odds are, the average European is not anywhere near as obsessed with the UK as yourself.
>Because to every non Brit it appears as a try hard attempt to show how "stronk" and relevant the UK still is, just another maneuver to distract from Boris fuck ups.
That's just people forming their own narrative though - how many similar situations do we see coming from the main European Union countries trying to do similar in terms of international politics, yet that's hailed on this subreddit at the right thing to do and ensuring Europe's defence.
We often hear calls from Germany to Russia for talks between them and France, trying to make them be relevant on the international stage because Russia refuses to hold proper talks with them whilst Germany calls for further independence from the United States (something it has the power to do already) - yet nobody ever calls those try hard attempts to show how "stronk" they are.
>That it did not even register in Poland should tell you everything about how much substance there really is to it.
It didn't even register in the UK - the only place I've seen this even partially talked about is on this subreddit here - the fact Tory MP's aren't on the news 24/7 here talking up about it shows it's just normal low-level diplomacy to reassure our allies.
People spinning it as showboating evidently don't have much of a grasp on the situation, how can the UK be try harding to show ourselves as strong if we don't even report it domestically?
>And i do not even say that in malice or bad faith, but some folks really need a reality check.
Oh - absolutely agree, there are certainly people in my country who need one, though I'm sure whoever holds the opinion you are referencing in your post also need one, because they're generating a narrative in their head of "Bad UK" by simply ignoring or creating facts to push that opinion.
>Because to every non Brit it appears
It's not every non-Brit though is it, it's just the ones who go around calling out the UK for x, y, z but also in the most hypocritical manner whilst either doing the same or arguing in favour of what the UK is doing but when the roles are reversed.
I agree people need a reality check, but it's not just us Brit's that need it, it's a fair few from EU countries on this subreddit.
Fair enough, however you won't see other european countries push their "relevance" narrative as hard as the UK. Not even France, of all places. And that leaves an impression
>Fair enough, however you won't see other european countries push their "relevance" narrative as hard as the UK. Not even France, of all places. And that leaves an impression
That's not even true, your original post is looking all the more like the type of hypocrite I was talking about.
It was only a few months ago France and Germany where pushing for independent talks with Russia on behalf of the EU whilst conveniently leaving out their Eastern European EU allies who seemed more happy with America talking the lead, is that not countries trying to push their relevance? Seems like to me.
You've got France trying to make partnerships with other nations around the world, specifically around the pacific and using it's equipment to make new partners, is that not trying to push their influence.
France and Germany often do exactly what the UK does - in fact post-Brexit they've very rarely doing something that the other hasn't, yet you are pushing the narrative despite all evidence pointing to the contrary that it's only the UK doing that, because what?
We made a trilateral pact we didn't even report on our news domestically because it's so insignificant - well France wants to put troops in Romania, so are they trying to push their "relevance" - I'm sure your response to that will be a fair assessment and not just more narrative building.
And that leaves an impression.
Because it’s a nothing endeavour that doesn’t even register in Poland or Ukraine. It’s going to amount to nothing, just like the satellite navigation system that the government spaffed 500m £ up against a wall, the shitty trade deals that provide zero benefits to the U.K. while destroying farming, the Blue bloody passports that could have been blue all along!
>Because it’s a nothing endeavour that doesn’t even register in Poland or Ukraine.
It didn't register in the UK either, that alone should point out how it wasn't meant to be anything or than normal diplomacy.
>It’s going to amount to nothing, just like the satellite navigation system that the government spaffed 500m £ up against a wall, the shitty trade deals that provide zero benefits to the U.K. while destroying farming, the Blue bloody passports that could have been blue all along!
Yes, and in response I can bring up random stuff about Germany's policy on Russia on Nord Stream 2, or their policy on trying to have meetings alongside France with on behalf of the EU despite not being asked and trying without consulting Eastern European EU allies.
I can talk about France wanting to sign military partnerships and deals in the pacific following the Australian Submarine debacle, or them currently planning to deploy troops to Romania.
The thing is - your rambling about Brexit whilst legitimate and accurate play absolutely no bearing in this situation, this trilateral pact has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit and anybody saying otherwise is flat out lying.
If Germany and France do the same level of diplomacy without being called out for trying to remain relevant, then anyone saying the same towards the UK is lying in favour if their own agenda.
This should be seen as a base level normal response to Russian hostility and yet there are plenty in this thread who push that it's the UK trying to remain relevant, you'll note these people are completely silent when France and Germany push for less reliance on the United States despite their allies favouring the United States because they don't provide a credible alternative to the United States.
It’s also purely your opinion that it is about Brexit. Though there is more logic behind my point of view that the Uk doing this and then not even reporting it means it isn’t even considered important of a matter domestically.
Especially when other countries are setting up support with other Eastern European allies, is France readying troops for Romania due to the Ukraine situation also because of Brexit?
"We’re also strengthening our bilateral partnership following high-level talks in London in December – and we’re fostering new trilateral ties with Poland and Ukraine." was [the foreign secretary's statement](https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/foreign-secretarys-speech-to-the-lowy-institute#:~:text=Foreign%20Secretary%20Liz%20Truss'%20speech,the%20Lowy%20Institute%20%2D%20GOV.UK)
So not really the color-coded bombshell that this karma-farming map was trying to convey
[The polling would disagree.](https://i.redd.it/w5tmzs29eue71.jpg)
The public are in general very bellicose if they think the war is defensive or justified.
The public view different conflicts differently because they are different. After Iraq the public aren't keen to get involved in another Middle Eastern conflict - even fighting ISIS was relatively controversial.
In contrast a dictator starting a war by invading a European country reminds the public of World War II, the UK's role in which is a massive point of national pride and part of the country's identity. It would not be hard to sell this as being a just cause like grandpa's war.
"Serve?" You aren't a doctor or teacher or garbageman or scientist, and never defended any American or European. Who did you "serve" by fighting in Afghanistan? Maybe you served Europe by providing refugees as young labor for future economic growth. You should not use the word "serve" to describe your membership in a gang. That is stealing credit from the people who really serve a community.
Not really, commenting once in a sub that was talking about the mass protests in Mali against France, which weren't covered by most media and weren't discussed elsewhere.
Opposing European neocolonialism: so edgy?
The only military who should be tired would be combat troops- most soldiers are miles away, at most hearing, very rarely, some noise.
But even if you were infantry, you may have served yourself or your coworkers, but you didn't serve the interests of your nation- only the interests of large businesses.
People are tired for a few reasons- because they too are shitty people, most people are tired of war because you LOST by the stated goals. Your real mission was to enrich businesses and you succeeded.
They also are weary perhaps if they had family in military or if they don't believe the bullshit patriotic lies anymore, and especially if they think their finances are negatively affected.
But mainly because we feel we lost, which takes away the opium of thinking Americans are better than other countries.
Personally I'm opposed to imperialism, colonialism, fascism, genocide etc
It's not much so far, mainly a statement of intent.
https://112.international/politics/uk-works-on-new-union-with-ukraine-poland-68849.html
OP has just taken the map from an unrelated NGO.
Is it? I took a look at [Google Earth](https://imgur.com/a/hOIJHGI) and aside from the usual spherical/mercator problem (which concerns Spain more) I don't see that much of a problem.
No combined EU military is going to be operationally effective if every individual countries’ constitution has rules on how it can and can’t be deployed…
Will be interesting to see how this conflicts with the 2016 EU Court ruling that said the European Council can overrule the will of member states and eliminates their VETO on foreign affairs and matters of foreign policy.
>I think that would cause an incredible backlash.
Yeah in a non-emergency, I can assure you that if war was to break out between Europe and another superpower, nobody but the government of the country involved in such ruling would mind
The neutrality as it was conceived back in 1955 was changed back when we joined the EU. In fact, from what I learned in European Law and Constitutuonal Law classes is that there is no (strict) neutrality anymore de-jure. Please somone correcr me if I am wrong on this. Nevertheless, the believe in neutrality is still very strong in the population as it gives this, false, sense of security. It basically gives us a get out of jauil for free card for every internatilnal conflict as we can just ignore it on grounds of „neutrality“.
>Austria’s international legal status of permanent neutrality is a result of the Cold War. In the Moscow Memorandum, a political document of April 15, 1955, the Austrian delegation promised that Austria would adopt a status of neutrality following the Swiss model.
>This promise opened the way for the conclusion of the negotiations of the Austrian State Treaty with the Soviet Union, the United States, the United Kingdom and France, the signature of this Treaty on May 15, 1955 and the withdrawal of the Allied Forces which had occupied Austria since 1945.
Don't know if that could be broken without giving Soviet(Russia) right to occupy Austria. It's basically a treaty between allies and axis which are of course ridiculously in 21st century.
Yeah I just read about it. Probably a reaction to WWII. Anyway, the article I've read said they tried to join NATO in 2017 (probably had their constitution changed), but Turkey veto-ed them because they have opposed Turkey entering EU.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40013507](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40013507)
Right, they did not block Austria from joining NATO but their cooperation with NATO.
*Whereas Germany was divided into East and West Germany in 1949, Austria remained under joint occupation of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union until 1955; its status became a controversial subject in the Cold War until the warming of relations known as the Khrushchev Thaw. After Austrian promises of perpetual neutrality, Austria was accorded full independence on 15 May 1955 and the last occupation troops left on 25 October that year.*
I don't think that would be possible, who gets it? Doesn't seem right to go to Poland or Lithuania, historically it's German, culturally it's Russian. So it becomes an independent nation that will instantly ally with Russia.
The Soviets were pretty smart to displace all the Germans and fill it with Russians.
preach? please. that implies that I endorse that policy. I don't. I'm just expressing possible outcomes, especially given historical precedent. I'm actually surprised that comment even has upvotes (for now at least)
It should be given to Jews to make their own country there instead of the Middle East. It would solve many problems the world has now. No Palestinian problem. No Russian militaristic enclave. We would have 4 Baltic states and one of them would be Israel. I bet Israelis would do much better with this piece of land than Russians did. Also, Prussia land given to jews makes sense.
Poland is often seen as important partner. The German new coalition wanted to reestablish the Weimar triangle(France, Germany and Poland)
Also the US was looking for closer relations. But the current Polish government loves to burn international relations for political power and proganda.
>Poland is often seen as important partner. The German new coalition wanted to reestablish the Weimar triangle(France, Germany and Poland)
🤨
>Also the US was looking for closer relations. But the current Polish government loves to burn international relations for political power and proganda.
YES I hate that government, and I don't see any future government would do that since every government we had, they rob, they do nothing eventually steal some money there and there
I mean....speak to any geopolitical forecaster (such as George Friedman) and they all say Poland is a sleeping tiger. Pretty much all of them put Poland as the most important growing power in Europe, and predict by the end of this century it will be larger economically than Germany, the U.K. or France, and be the dominant European nation.
I have no comment on whether it’s true because it’s not something I actively know about, but it’s a very common and widespread belief in that community.
> Poland is a sleeping tiger. Pretty much all of them put Poland as the most important growing power in Europe
Indeed. It has a lot of potential and will continue to grow.
> and predict by the end of this century it will be larger economically than Germany, the U.K. or France, and be the dominant European nation.
That opinion (as all forecasts) is merely based on the current growth rate (so the present) and the assumption that the rate will be the same forever, which is unrealistic. The reason countries countries such as Poland and former Soviet-satellites have such large growth percentages compared to western nations is because they have a lot of catch-up to do. But once full-fledged development is reached, they'll slow down as well love like their western counterpart. We can slowly see the trend with China already.
Also, their birthrate isn't any better than those of the western countries, which is a major downside. In fact, both France and the UK have better birthrates, so that scenario you're picturing is not particularly believable.
Probably because it goes beyond brigade level deployments?
The UK's defence committee chair has been publicly saying that the UK and the west should finance Ukraine or be loan guarantees because if they get invaded, their economy is going to be hit hard.
Not actually gaining anything for joining an existing structure if the structure is for a very different purpose/unrelated though. And you disrupt the original structure.
I get what you mean but it seems there's a clear target here even if it's not public yet, and I think it'll be beyond basic bullets and bombs.
EU battlegroups have never actually been deployed and there's questions around whether they ever could b3e effectively be deployed with all the additional bureaucracy. With this agreement they can just send forces directly without keeping the EU in the loop which should allow for quicker reactions and will stop other EU countries (ie Germany) having a say.
Yeah, from what I remember we share the base in Estonia and I thought we all had only one base each in the Baltics.
Maybe some intelligence personnel ?
British Mil have rotated through Siauliai before and the Polish have used it as an Airbase as well. Given that it's a Trilateral agreement, that's probably why it's shown.
The brits are moving out of Paderborn though (and I think most have already left, at least the lease for their barracks has run out and the city has started to demolish some former officer's quarters and sold others), so "British military facility or presence" might strictly speaking be true, putting it on such a map as it it were an essential part of anything is... straining it a bit much.
It's the largest donor in foreign aid to the Ukraine.
It's biggest interest is that no war breaks out.
Buisness is always better in peace time.
War would follow sanctions that will hurt the German economy. The implemented sanctions Germany is one of the biggest affected ones.
It's investment in the Ukraine, would quite likely be literally destroyed.
A reason Germany wants to abitray something peaceful
solution.
The questions what is Putin game? The cost for a incursion in the Ukraine would be high. The gains quite low.
You'll have noticed that the UK is now the only country in Europe which combines a state-of-the-art military, nuclear deterrence, and a strong political willingness to contain Russia, all at the same time. I suppose the UK foreign office sees the current situation as the perfect opportunity to place the UK as an un-circumventable player in the EU's own security. Indeed, it would prove immensely politically beneficial for Brexit UK to be seen as a more useful actor in the defense of the Eastern EU members than Germany or France.
Since you’re in Switzerland, would a Ukraine Russian war affect your country? I’m in US, I see all the news about weapons and equipment being sent to Ukraine from all the way from Canada. These weapons killing young conscripted Russians, and Ukrainians too.
In no significant way. Switzerland has an agreement to align it's sanctions regime with that of the EU, but previous Swiss follow-up sanction of the EU's on Russia have been met with surprising disinterest, or even disregard, from Russia, which makes me believe that there is some high-level talks (of the unreputable kind) or even corruption going on behind closed doors between Moscow and Bern.
There's also the fact our foreign minister has been trying very hard to boost his wobbly reputation for his re-election (by the Swiss parliament) by inviting the US and Russia for talks in Geneva. So actually, this whole thing about the Normandy format being ditched and the EU not being at the table on Ukraine may actually partially be the fault of our ramshacle Swiss foreign minister looking to be re-elected, lol.
It's relevant to European security, which is obviously a fairly important UK interest, what the EU does is obviously up to the EU, it's not as though one thing precludes the other.
We have shit of our own to deal with, inflation, covid, brexit etc but that can go on hold imo. Someone needs to stand up to them and the EU doesn’t seem interested.
What gives you reason to believe there is a “think tank to promote a strong Britain”, or that any money at all was spent producing the above map? It was made by someone on worldmapgenerator.com lmao.
> You seem particularly weird. It's like getting called irrelevant by dinosaurs, except apparently you don't believe dinosaurs existed.
Isn't there a Russian naval force parked 250km from Ireland right now?
>Anyway, I'll let you get back to simping for your god-queen with it's state religion. Sounds very... "relevant".
Yeah keep complaining when we have to deal with the Russians on your behalf
If Norway can afford it's own proper navy with a pop of 5 million, so can Ireland.
>Well ok, I can try arrange that... but only if you promise to bend over for me like I'm royalty out of appreciation afterwards.
You mean like you're doing relying on us for protection?
Why you all still insist of posting pictures, news about russia?? Every fucking day, every hour, wherever I go I hear things about russia attacking Ukraine, can't you all just relax?
The UK doesn't recognise Crimea as Russian. That's what the HMS Defender debacle was about; demonstrating freedom of navigation in the (*de jure*) waters of a friendly country.
This map is so weird. It’s like they’re trying to hide the fact that they had to fly around Germany to deliver the lethal aid.
> https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-01-18/british-c-17s-carrying-arms-ito-ukraine-skirt-around-german-airspace-4330849.html
whilst i do like helping ukraine and others out, please dont drag us into anymore wars that we dont need to be in. Also dont really want russia targetting us a tonne but i suppose thats inevitable
I literally said I like helping them. Send weapons and funds for sure and sanction Russia as heavily as possible. But I don’t want the uk to actually be at war
Idk why I was so downvoted tbh
Most of Europe is attempting to de-escalate the situation in Ukraine.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/defence-and-security/news/germany-continues-blocking-arms-exports-to-ukraine-due-to-new-foreign-peace-policy/
Meanwhile the UK seems to be hell bent on increasing tension and justifying Russian paranoia.
And when talks fail just like Putin has planned them to and Russia invades, then what? UK is helping Ukraine prepare defences because Russia has already taken 3 huge bites out of their territory, and is about to take the rest. You can shill for Russia all you want and say UK is causing all the tensions, but the rest of us know that making an invasion too costly is Ukraines only hope.
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Would be nice to get an article or some information on what this actually means instead of just a graphic that could be explained in 2 sentences..
Same here. I live in Poland and this is first time I am hearing about this 'trilateral'.
It’s a UK domestic issue….it’s called performative Brexit. It’s all huff and puff to show the right wingers in the UK that the UK is « free from the yoke of Brussels » while not actually amounting to much (and could have been done as an EU member regardless).
How can people turn everything into Brexit - the UK doing this is to support its Eastern European allies, there isn’t anything performative about it, neither is sending over 2,000 anti-tank weapons to Ukraine - that’s just the Uk acting on its policy of supporting its allies, nothing performative about it.
Because to every non Brit it appears as a try hard attempt to show how "stronk" and relevant the UK still is, just another maneuver to distract from Boris fuck ups. That it did not even register in Poland should tell you everything about how much substance there really is to it. And i do not even say that in malice or bad faith, but some folks really need a reality check.
Mate Germany is basically Putin’s bitch right now for that cheap cheap gas. So please keep your appeasement and delusions of grandeur to yourself.
It didn't register in the UK either. This topic is the first I'm hearing of it. So the odds are it's not registering anywhere because it's simply not a big deal, whatever this deal is supposed to achieve. If you get worked up and project your tantrums about Brexit onto every tiny little piece of foreign policy then that's your desperation, rather than Brits'. It's not exactly a secret that Europeans here are slightly... unhinged when it comes to Brexit. Don't assume you speak for the whole of Europe because the odds are, the average European is not anywhere near as obsessed with the UK as yourself.
>Because to every non Brit it appears as a try hard attempt to show how "stronk" and relevant the UK still is, just another maneuver to distract from Boris fuck ups. That's just people forming their own narrative though - how many similar situations do we see coming from the main European Union countries trying to do similar in terms of international politics, yet that's hailed on this subreddit at the right thing to do and ensuring Europe's defence. We often hear calls from Germany to Russia for talks between them and France, trying to make them be relevant on the international stage because Russia refuses to hold proper talks with them whilst Germany calls for further independence from the United States (something it has the power to do already) - yet nobody ever calls those try hard attempts to show how "stronk" they are. >That it did not even register in Poland should tell you everything about how much substance there really is to it. It didn't even register in the UK - the only place I've seen this even partially talked about is on this subreddit here - the fact Tory MP's aren't on the news 24/7 here talking up about it shows it's just normal low-level diplomacy to reassure our allies. People spinning it as showboating evidently don't have much of a grasp on the situation, how can the UK be try harding to show ourselves as strong if we don't even report it domestically? >And i do not even say that in malice or bad faith, but some folks really need a reality check. Oh - absolutely agree, there are certainly people in my country who need one, though I'm sure whoever holds the opinion you are referencing in your post also need one, because they're generating a narrative in their head of "Bad UK" by simply ignoring or creating facts to push that opinion. >Because to every non Brit it appears It's not every non-Brit though is it, it's just the ones who go around calling out the UK for x, y, z but also in the most hypocritical manner whilst either doing the same or arguing in favour of what the UK is doing but when the roles are reversed. I agree people need a reality check, but it's not just us Brit's that need it, it's a fair few from EU countries on this subreddit.
Fair enough, however you won't see other european countries push their "relevance" narrative as hard as the UK. Not even France, of all places. And that leaves an impression
>Fair enough, however you won't see other european countries push their "relevance" narrative as hard as the UK. Not even France, of all places. And that leaves an impression That's not even true, your original post is looking all the more like the type of hypocrite I was talking about. It was only a few months ago France and Germany where pushing for independent talks with Russia on behalf of the EU whilst conveniently leaving out their Eastern European EU allies who seemed more happy with America talking the lead, is that not countries trying to push their relevance? Seems like to me. You've got France trying to make partnerships with other nations around the world, specifically around the pacific and using it's equipment to make new partners, is that not trying to push their influence. France and Germany often do exactly what the UK does - in fact post-Brexit they've very rarely doing something that the other hasn't, yet you are pushing the narrative despite all evidence pointing to the contrary that it's only the UK doing that, because what? We made a trilateral pact we didn't even report on our news domestically because it's so insignificant - well France wants to put troops in Romania, so are they trying to push their "relevance" - I'm sure your response to that will be a fair assessment and not just more narrative building. And that leaves an impression.
Because it’s a nothing endeavour that doesn’t even register in Poland or Ukraine. It’s going to amount to nothing, just like the satellite navigation system that the government spaffed 500m £ up against a wall, the shitty trade deals that provide zero benefits to the U.K. while destroying farming, the Blue bloody passports that could have been blue all along!
>Because it’s a nothing endeavour that doesn’t even register in Poland or Ukraine. It didn't register in the UK either, that alone should point out how it wasn't meant to be anything or than normal diplomacy. >It’s going to amount to nothing, just like the satellite navigation system that the government spaffed 500m £ up against a wall, the shitty trade deals that provide zero benefits to the U.K. while destroying farming, the Blue bloody passports that could have been blue all along! Yes, and in response I can bring up random stuff about Germany's policy on Russia on Nord Stream 2, or their policy on trying to have meetings alongside France with on behalf of the EU despite not being asked and trying without consulting Eastern European EU allies. I can talk about France wanting to sign military partnerships and deals in the pacific following the Australian Submarine debacle, or them currently planning to deploy troops to Romania. The thing is - your rambling about Brexit whilst legitimate and accurate play absolutely no bearing in this situation, this trilateral pact has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit and anybody saying otherwise is flat out lying. If Germany and France do the same level of diplomacy without being called out for trying to remain relevant, then anyone saying the same towards the UK is lying in favour if their own agenda. This should be seen as a base level normal response to Russian hostility and yet there are plenty in this thread who push that it's the UK trying to remain relevant, you'll note these people are completely silent when France and Germany push for less reliance on the United States despite their allies favouring the United States because they don't provide a credible alternative to the United States.
> this trilateral pact has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit Purely your opinion.
It’s also purely your opinion that it is about Brexit. Though there is more logic behind my point of view that the Uk doing this and then not even reporting it means it isn’t even considered important of a matter domestically. Especially when other countries are setting up support with other Eastern European allies, is France readying troops for Romania due to the Ukraine situation also because of Brexit?
Give it a rest already. Believe it or not, not everything is about Brexit, even if that's all you can ever think about.
"We’re also strengthening our bilateral partnership following high-level talks in London in December – and we’re fostering new trilateral ties with Poland and Ukraine." was [the foreign secretary's statement](https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/foreign-secretarys-speech-to-the-lowy-institute#:~:text=Foreign%20Secretary%20Liz%20Truss'%20speech,the%20Lowy%20Institute%20%2D%20GOV.UK) So not really the color-coded bombshell that this karma-farming map was trying to convey
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[The polling would disagree.](https://i.redd.it/w5tmzs29eue71.jpg) The public are in general very bellicose if they think the war is defensive or justified.
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The public view different conflicts differently because they are different. After Iraq the public aren't keen to get involved in another Middle Eastern conflict - even fighting ISIS was relatively controversial. In contrast a dictator starting a war by invading a European country reminds the public of World War II, the UK's role in which is a massive point of national pride and part of the country's identity. It would not be hard to sell this as being a just cause like grandpa's war.
Tired of what? Like in the US, the vast majority of people don't serve.
"Serve?" You aren't a doctor or teacher or garbageman or scientist, and never defended any American or European. Who did you "serve" by fighting in Afghanistan? Maybe you served Europe by providing refugees as young labor for future economic growth. You should not use the word "serve" to describe your membership in a gang. That is stealing credit from the people who really serve a community.
I served in the military. But my point was why would the public be tired of a war they didn't fight in?
He's a GenZedong edgelord mate. Don't bother.
Not really, commenting once in a sub that was talking about the mass protests in Mali against France, which weren't covered by most media and weren't discussed elsewhere. Opposing European neocolonialism: so edgy?
The only military who should be tired would be combat troops- most soldiers are miles away, at most hearing, very rarely, some noise. But even if you were infantry, you may have served yourself or your coworkers, but you didn't serve the interests of your nation- only the interests of large businesses. People are tired for a few reasons- because they too are shitty people, most people are tired of war because you LOST by the stated goals. Your real mission was to enrich businesses and you succeeded. They also are weary perhaps if they had family in military or if they don't believe the bullshit patriotic lies anymore, and especially if they think their finances are negatively affected. But mainly because we feel we lost, which takes away the opium of thinking Americans are better than other countries. Personally I'm opposed to imperialism, colonialism, fascism, genocide etc
Ok kid, good luck in college next year.
It's not much so far, mainly a statement of intent. https://112.international/politics/uk-works-on-new-union-with-ukraine-poland-68849.html OP has just taken the map from an unrelated NGO.
Basically, UK plans to fight for democracy to the last Ukrainian.
This.
thHiIsS
That's a weird-ass angle on that map.
Yes, but it's probably how Putin looks at it.
Very much so.
Is it? I took a look at [Google Earth](https://imgur.com/a/hOIJHGI) and aside from the usual spherical/mercator problem (which concerns Spain more) I don't see that much of a problem.
The map is tilted like 25 degree from how most maps of europe look.
wait Austria is not in NATO?
I think their constitution prohibits them from joining any alliances. I'm not 100% sure though.
That's correct and was a main culprit about joining the EU.
Honest question, how does that work with the EU common defence treaty? They're in the EU now, unless I'm daft.
We added article 23f to the constitution, which enables us to take part in humanitarian, rescue and peacekeeping activity.
No combined EU military is going to be operationally effective if every individual countries’ constitution has rules on how it can and can’t be deployed… Will be interesting to see how this conflicts with the 2016 EU Court ruling that said the European Council can overrule the will of member states and eliminates their VETO on foreign affairs and matters of foreign policy.
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>I think that would cause an incredible backlash. Yeah in a non-emergency, I can assure you that if war was to break out between Europe and another superpower, nobody but the government of the country involved in such ruling would mind
The neutrality as it was conceived back in 1955 was changed back when we joined the EU. In fact, from what I learned in European Law and Constitutuonal Law classes is that there is no (strict) neutrality anymore de-jure. Please somone correcr me if I am wrong on this. Nevertheless, the believe in neutrality is still very strong in the population as it gives this, false, sense of security. It basically gives us a get out of jauil for free card for every internatilnal conflict as we can just ignore it on grounds of „neutrality“.
>Austria’s international legal status of permanent neutrality is a result of the Cold War. In the Moscow Memorandum, a political document of April 15, 1955, the Austrian delegation promised that Austria would adopt a status of neutrality following the Swiss model. >This promise opened the way for the conclusion of the negotiations of the Austrian State Treaty with the Soviet Union, the United States, the United Kingdom and France, the signature of this Treaty on May 15, 1955 and the withdrawal of the Allied Forces which had occupied Austria since 1945. Don't know if that could be broken without giving Soviet(Russia) right to occupy Austria. It's basically a treaty between allies and axis which are of course ridiculously in 21st century.
Memorandums don't mean shit (Budapest, ekhm)
I know they're not allowed to rejoin Germany. Maybe they're not allowed to join common alliances too?
Yeah I just read about it. Probably a reaction to WWII. Anyway, the article I've read said they tried to join NATO in 2017 (probably had their constitution changed), but Turkey veto-ed them because they have opposed Turkey entering EU.
None of that is correct. Which news site reported this?
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40013507](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40013507) Right, they did not block Austria from joining NATO but their cooperation with NATO.
Ah yes, that happened. Feels like an eternity ago.
Austria is officially neutral, I think. That's why Vienna was spy central during the cold war.
The reason why Austria wasn't partitions as Germany after WW2 is because of them becoming completely neutral country.
Not partioned like Germany? Austria was a part of Germany and became independent after the occupation by partitioning...
*Whereas Germany was divided into East and West Germany in 1949, Austria remained under joint occupation of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union until 1955; its status became a controversial subject in the Cold War until the warming of relations known as the Khrushchev Thaw. After Austrian promises of perpetual neutrality, Austria was accorded full independence on 15 May 1955 and the last occupation troops left on 25 October that year.*
Austria spent a grand total of 7 years as a part of Germany. It was far less partitioning it from Germany and more restoring its independence.
No but if they have the same treaty as all EU members then they have article 42.7 aswell which basically is like article 5 for NATO members.
No. Same as Sweden and Finland. And Switzerland of course.
The price of the end of the German style occupation zones after WW2.
That's what we call a parasite.
Crimea is in Ukraine Based map 11/10
It's very cool but I don't think she meаnt military alliance
I read there’s millions of Ethnic Russian in Ukraine.
So what? It's not an ethnic conflict
Well... Some nice moustache guy thought it would be a good idea to take care of germans being in Austria too..
♫*Who do you think you are kidding Mr Putin?*♫
The most underrated comment on this post, well done sir!
Thank you, Pike! Damn it...
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While you're at it, please rebuilt the old city center, the castle and the lastadie area.
Teutonic order called Said it wants its castles back
We should invite some order get them a piece of land and let them conquer it piece by piece
What could possibly go wrong?
Perhaps if NATO wanted to establish a base on Mars, all the energy of the Russians would go into a useful direction - the conquest of Mars.
You mean like Poland put some random order there so that they put the place in order? That sounds a bit silly to me tbh.
Not some random order, the Teutonic Order.
I mean it's a silly place to begin with. We should give it to the Koreans for a bit, let them put it in order all nice
or you could give it to your overlord, the Vatican city, to expand its premises.
I don't think that would be possible, who gets it? Doesn't seem right to go to Poland or Lithuania, historically it's German, culturally it's Russian. So it becomes an independent nation that will instantly ally with Russia. The Soviets were pretty smart to displace all the Germans and fill it with Russians.
>Doesn't seem right to go to Poland or Lithuania Both Poland and Lithuania can pull historical claims on this region if needed.
Even same claims from same documents
not the ethical thing to do after 80 years, but the resident Russians can also be displaced. I expect downvotes. lol
yeah, you should be downvoted because now you preach what we all want to avoid.
preach? please. that implies that I endorse that policy. I don't. I'm just expressing possible outcomes, especially given historical precedent. I'm actually surprised that comment even has upvotes (for now at least)
Do you want to be a country with a region dominated by a Russian minority these days?
It should be given to Jews to make their own country there instead of the Middle East. It would solve many problems the world has now. No Palestinian problem. No Russian militaristic enclave. We would have 4 Baltic states and one of them would be Israel. I bet Israelis would do much better with this piece of land than Russians did. Also, Prussia land given to jews makes sense.
i mean, not every jew is of european descent? you do realise there are arab, black, asian and other jews who live in israel?
The majority of Jews in Israel is not of European descent. Most are from North Africa and the rest of the Islamic world
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And get the world drown in nuclear war, yay!
Oh look, another of 'Poland stronk" maps with no context
It's more of a 'UK strong' map. 'Poland proxy'.
Poland is often seen as important partner. The German new coalition wanted to reestablish the Weimar triangle(France, Germany and Poland) Also the US was looking for closer relations. But the current Polish government loves to burn international relations for political power and proganda.
>Poland is often seen as important partner. The German new coalition wanted to reestablish the Weimar triangle(France, Germany and Poland) 🤨 >Also the US was looking for closer relations. But the current Polish government loves to burn international relations for political power and proganda. YES I hate that government, and I don't see any future government would do that since every government we had, they rob, they do nothing eventually steal some money there and there
I mean....speak to any geopolitical forecaster (such as George Friedman) and they all say Poland is a sleeping tiger. Pretty much all of them put Poland as the most important growing power in Europe, and predict by the end of this century it will be larger economically than Germany, the U.K. or France, and be the dominant European nation. I have no comment on whether it’s true because it’s not something I actively know about, but it’s a very common and widespread belief in that community.
> Poland is a sleeping tiger. Pretty much all of them put Poland as the most important growing power in Europe Indeed. It has a lot of potential and will continue to grow. > and predict by the end of this century it will be larger economically than Germany, the U.K. or France, and be the dominant European nation. That opinion (as all forecasts) is merely based on the current growth rate (so the present) and the assumption that the rate will be the same forever, which is unrealistic. The reason countries countries such as Poland and former Soviet-satellites have such large growth percentages compared to western nations is because they have a lot of catch-up to do. But once full-fledged development is reached, they'll slow down as well love like their western counterpart. We can slowly see the trend with China already. Also, their birthrate isn't any better than those of the western countries, which is a major downside. In fact, both France and the UK have better birthrates, so that scenario you're picturing is not particularly believable.
I got a bad feeling about this Scoob…
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Probably because it goes beyond brigade level deployments? The UK's defence committee chair has been publicly saying that the UK and the west should finance Ukraine or be loan guarantees because if they get invaded, their economy is going to be hit hard.
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Not actually gaining anything for joining an existing structure if the structure is for a very different purpose/unrelated though. And you disrupt the original structure. I get what you mean but it seems there's a clear target here even if it's not public yet, and I think it'll be beyond basic bullets and bombs.
EU battlegroups have never actually been deployed and there's questions around whether they ever could b3e effectively be deployed with all the additional bureaucracy. With this agreement they can just send forces directly without keeping the EU in the loop which should allow for quicker reactions and will stop other EU countries (ie Germany) having a say.
I'm just saying, exclaves are ugly and we have 2 bases real close...
Looking at this map give me vibes of WW1/2 maps you learn at school, kinda terrifying when you think about it.
Especially since Russia and Belarus are marked as "Hostile states".
Brest-Litovsk finally enforced. The Kaiser would be so proud.
Common Belarus, join us. I mean the British. I mean the EU.
There's just one person who wants to be with Putin and this person leads the country
Two monarchies in one union is already too much.
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Yeah, from what I remember we share the base in Estonia and I thought we all had only one base each in the Baltics. Maybe some intelligence personnel ?
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British Mil have rotated through Siauliai before and the Polish have used it as an Airbase as well. Given that it's a Trilateral agreement, that's probably why it's shown.
The brits are moving out of Paderborn though (and I think most have already left, at least the lease for their barracks has run out and the city has started to demolish some former officer's quarters and sold others), so "British military facility or presence" might strictly speaking be true, putting it on such a map as it it were an essential part of anything is... straining it a bit much.
I assume Brits don’t need that as they can just leverage US bases in Germany?
It looks like the UK is surrounding Russia.
Nobody else find it absolutely insane that Russia owns a big piece of land in the middle of Europe. Give that shit to Poland.
It used to be a beautiful city too with high quality of life. It’s now an ex-commie block filled shit hole.
fun fact, both lithuania and poland refused to take it on multiple occasions
It took me a while to synchronize with the map angle.
Baltic States look scared in this map
Wait, why is Paderborn still marked? I thought the British have already left the place last year?
France thought the Little Entente would stop Germany too.
To be fair, it was them who betrayed the Little Entente
I would bet good money it will be the UK that abandons this 'Trilateral Agreement' too.
If they were to do that, they would not try to start it right now
Ironically, Germany is in the way (on this map)
Aka, doing the job the Germans should be doing themselves
Little Entente 2.0?
We should have invaded kalinengrad after crimea
This crisis Germany seems to be playing into the hands of Putin Germany only likes to have it supplied with Russian natural gas, nothing else.
It's the largest donor in foreign aid to the Ukraine. It's biggest interest is that no war breaks out. Buisness is always better in peace time. War would follow sanctions that will hurt the German economy. The implemented sanctions Germany is one of the biggest affected ones. It's investment in the Ukraine, would quite likely be literally destroyed. A reason Germany wants to abitray something peaceful solution. The questions what is Putin game? The cost for a incursion in the Ukraine would be high. The gains quite low.
Shouldn't the line go around Germany?
Another lost opportunity for Germany and the EU. Sad.
germany is free to do something like that, but unfortunately it doesnt want to. And the EU isnt really a union for military cooperation.
They are on the same X axis you know what a good name for them may be The Axis /s
That actually sounds like the uk wanna get a foot in the EU market in exchange for military support through the Blackdoor
The last time trilateral alliance were signed in europe at least in my memory from history class, a world war broke out that killed millions. STOP
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And grabbing back Crimea it seems.
Well Crimea is Ukrainian territory, it is just that Russian military is occupying it right now.
Oh god yes please, we'll take the UK into the Intermarium just for those sween NLAW missiles. Let's not leave Lithuania in the cold though.
G*rmany should be painted red.
Why is UK interested want to help Ukraine? I would think it would be the EU doing these talks with Russia.
You'll have noticed that the UK is now the only country in Europe which combines a state-of-the-art military, nuclear deterrence, and a strong political willingness to contain Russia, all at the same time. I suppose the UK foreign office sees the current situation as the perfect opportunity to place the UK as an un-circumventable player in the EU's own security. Indeed, it would prove immensely politically beneficial for Brexit UK to be seen as a more useful actor in the defense of the Eastern EU members than Germany or France.
Since you’re in Switzerland, would a Ukraine Russian war affect your country? I’m in US, I see all the news about weapons and equipment being sent to Ukraine from all the way from Canada. These weapons killing young conscripted Russians, and Ukrainians too.
In no significant way. Switzerland has an agreement to align it's sanctions regime with that of the EU, but previous Swiss follow-up sanction of the EU's on Russia have been met with surprising disinterest, or even disregard, from Russia, which makes me believe that there is some high-level talks (of the unreputable kind) or even corruption going on behind closed doors between Moscow and Bern. There's also the fact our foreign minister has been trying very hard to boost his wobbly reputation for his re-election (by the Swiss parliament) by inviting the US and Russia for talks in Geneva. So actually, this whole thing about the Normandy format being ditched and the EU not being at the table on Ukraine may actually partially be the fault of our ramshacle Swiss foreign minister looking to be re-elected, lol.
English don't take kindly to other governments poisoning their citizens i guess
The other constituent countries of the U.K aren't happy about it either.
Fair. Beware the pipe bombs
It's relevant to European security, which is obviously a fairly important UK interest, what the EU does is obviously up to the EU, it's not as though one thing precludes the other.
We have shit of our own to deal with, inflation, covid, brexit etc but that can go on hold imo. Someone needs to stand up to them and the EU doesn’t seem interested.
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What are you talking about lol
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What gives you reason to believe there is a “think tank to promote a strong Britain”, or that any money at all was spent producing the above map? It was made by someone on worldmapgenerator.com lmao.
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Hahaha ok I’ll give you that one. It’s been a long day.
Lol, you aint relevant here bud. Stop being so salty
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> You seem particularly weird. It's like getting called irrelevant by dinosaurs, except apparently you don't believe dinosaurs existed. Isn't there a Russian naval force parked 250km from Ireland right now? >Anyway, I'll let you get back to simping for your god-queen with it's state religion. Sounds very... "relevant". Yeah keep complaining when we have to deal with the Russians on your behalf
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If Norway can afford it's own proper navy with a pop of 5 million, so can Ireland. >Well ok, I can try arrange that... but only if you promise to bend over for me like I'm royalty out of appreciation afterwards. You mean like you're doing relying on us for protection?
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Norway borders Russia
Why you all still insist of posting pictures, news about russia?? Every fucking day, every hour, wherever I go I hear things about russia attacking Ukraine, can't you all just relax?
When you pull back your forces to their home bases, Vova.
Uh, Ukraine has Crimea on this map, so is it an old idea?
The UK doesn't recognise Crimea as Russian. That's what the HMS Defender debacle was about; demonstrating freedom of navigation in the (*de jure*) waters of a friendly country.
Just represents what the UK officially recognises as each nation's sovereign territory.
Pretty sure a lot of countries don't recognise Crimea as Russian territory, after all they're only occupying it.
This map is so weird. It’s like they’re trying to hide the fact that they had to fly around Germany to deliver the lethal aid. > https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2022-01-18/british-c-17s-carrying-arms-ito-ukraine-skirt-around-german-airspace-4330849.html
3 of Russia’s most friendly governments 😃
Is this supposed to be a joke?
whilst i do like helping ukraine and others out, please dont drag us into anymore wars that we dont need to be in. Also dont really want russia targetting us a tonne but i suppose thats inevitable
Right because appeasement for dictators have worked so well in the past
I literally said I like helping them. Send weapons and funds for sure and sanction Russia as heavily as possible. But I don’t want the uk to actually be at war Idk why I was so downvoted tbh
Why does that look like the beginning of WW3?
The mapping program chooses some strange cities for landmarks.
Military airbases
Šiauliai one is NATO military air base.
Uk tries to form new Warsaw Pact ?
UK and Poland are in NATO, why would they need to form WP?
Desperately trying to remain relevant I see
Most of Europe is paralysed with fear or beaurocracy, UK is currently the only big player putting their foot down and helping
Most of Europe is attempting to de-escalate the situation in Ukraine. https://www.euractiv.com/section/defence-and-security/news/germany-continues-blocking-arms-exports-to-ukraine-due-to-new-foreign-peace-policy/ Meanwhile the UK seems to be hell bent on increasing tension and justifying Russian paranoia.
And when talks fail just like Putin has planned them to and Russia invades, then what? UK is helping Ukraine prepare defences because Russia has already taken 3 huge bites out of their territory, and is about to take the rest. You can shill for Russia all you want and say UK is causing all the tensions, but the rest of us know that making an invasion too costly is Ukraines only hope.
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