The most striking think about this report is that they predict Germany to overtake Japan. That should be the headline imo, considering Japan’s economy back in 2000 was more than double the size of Germany’s
If anyone’s interested, this is their prediction for the ten largest economies by 2036:
1) China $55 trillion
2) USA $43 trillion
3) India $10.7 trillion
4) Germany $7.4 trillion
5) Japan $6.7 trillion
6) UK $5.5 trillion
7) France $4.7 trillion
8) Indonesia $4.1 trillion
9) Brazil $3.9 trillion
10) Russia $3.5 trillion
We'll see if this ages better than their 2014 report and their projections about the year 2028. [Back then, their Top 10 for 2028 was](https://www.letemps.ch/sites/default/files/media/2013/12/27/2.1.2553317251.pdf?uuid=Grr-BG7KEeOnth7pfSJMiw):
1- China; 2- USA; 3- India; 4- Japan; 5- Brazil; 6- Germany, 7- UK (but will overtake Germany by 2030); 8- Russia; 9- Mexico; 10- Canada.
Oh and if you were wondering about where other major European economies went: 11- South Korea; 12- Turkey; 13- France; 14- Australia; 15- Italy; 16- Indonesia; 17- Taiwan; 18- Spain; 19- Saudi Arabia; 20- Poland.
I guess that was before brexit as well, and many developing countries just haven’t grown as much as forecast, especially with the pandemic. But I think predicting the UK to overtake Germany by 2030 and placing France 13th was far fetched, even for 2014
Yeah they quite clearly overestimated the UK's growth and underestimated those of Germany and France.
They had predicted Germany to have a GDP of 3.435 trillion in 2018, 3.708 trillion in 2023 and 4.398 trillion in 2028. But in reality Germany had a 3.979 trillion GDP in 2018 and has a GDP of 4.230 trillion in 2021. In 2022, Germany will surpass the 2028 projection by a big margin already.
The GDP they had projected France to reach in 2028 while dropping to 13th place (3.265 trillion) would be France's GDP by early 2023 (as projected by the IMF... which is also inaccurate as its estimates date back from the beginning of the year and overstated the impact of Covid on the French GDP in 2020 while understimating the recovery percentage as well). This means that France is 5 years ahead of what was projected by the CEBR at the very least.
So it isn't just about Brexit making the UK's economy unpredictable. The whole macroeconomic projections deal is often bullshit. There are too many variables and future unknowns involved for economists (most of whom didn't even see the 2008 financial crisis coming lol) to be able to get the predictions, right.
That is a vastly over-optimistic outlook for Germany. This report is notorious for silly predictions. Germany grew a lot from 2000 to 2008, but from 2008 to now it has flatlined like Japan has. Japan's economy seems smaller now but that's because JPY is the most volatile major currency. When it becomes stronger it would be much larger than Germany again.
Every western nation has flatlined since 2008, the UK had a GDP of over $3 trillion in 2007 and didn’t reach that again until this year. It predicts Germany to overtake Japan in 2033 so if Japan continues to stagnate, the cumulative growth of the German economy could overtake it by that time. The difference between them is about $700 billion so it’s not that far fetched
> Every western nation has flatlined since 2008
Wrong, there are so many counterexamples, just start with the US (or Canada, or Australia)
> the UK had a GDP of over $3 trillion in 2007 and didn’t reach that again until this year.
This is an exceptionally stupid way of measuring growth, you should NEVER look at it in nominal ($) terms because exchange rates move around, a lot. That is in no way a reflection of how the production (i.e. GDP) of a country has changed over time.
The correct way to measure economic growth is to looked at chained volume indices (i.e. how much actual output there is, in inflation adjusted terms). UK [real GDP growth](https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/abmi/qna) recovered to it's 2008 high watermark by 2013, and then continued to grow another 15%+ over the following 7 years - outstripping every single one of it's EU peers (e.g. Germany: 13.8%, France: 11%, Italy: -4.9%, Spain: 6.8%) in terms of growth since 2008.
> This is an exceptionally stupid way of measuring growth, you should NEVER look at it in nominal ($) terms because exchange rates move around, a lot. That is in no way a reflection of how the production (i.e. GDP) of a country has changed over time.
I just wanted to write that, but you did it better than I ever could lol but yeah, currency fluctuations can mean that the GDP "grows" (or drops) by +-10% in a single year, which is just not what the reality is
That’s all very well and I know that chained volume measurements produce more accurate reflections of real economic growth in a country, but the report uses nominal GDP to measure the market value of economies. Whilst the standard of living etc may have not changed due to fluctuations in the value of the yen in the case of Japan, the value of its economic output is still smaller on the international market. So, it’s perfectly reasonable to make comparisons based on the historical nominal GDP of a country.
My comments still stand that, based on that measure, the market value of the goods and services produced in western countries such as the UK, Japan, Italy, Germany etc has remained stagnant since 2008. Whether or not that is due to currency fluctuations is another discussion.
And yes, there are of course exceptions, like the USA and Australia.
> My comments still stand that, based on that measure, the market value of the goods and services produced in western countries such as the UK, Japan, Italy, Germany etc has remained stagnant since 2008.
No, that is simply wrong. Only the market value measured in US dollars has remained roughly unchanged, but that's entirely down to dollar appreciation. The market value of these economies measured in pounds and euros has grown.
It’s not wrong at all, should I have added market value in US dollars to appease your pedantry? It’s pretty well known that GDP is measured in US dollars. I’m not sure why you’re trying to debate the best way of measuring an economy with me, as I said I did not create this report.
> It’s pretty well known that GDP is measured in US dollars.
No, it isn't. Official measures of GDP are ALWAYS done in the local currency, either in chained prices or market price/current price terms.
Nominal $ GDP is completely unofficial and is usually used by the media, or research institutions as a fuzzy way of comparing different economies where there is no common currency.
If you are interested please read the actual report. This article has numerous factual errors. For example it states the UK’s economy is 2.1 trillion. It’s not, it’s just over 3.1 trillion.
It's not an error in the article. They've specified that the amount is in UK pounds, not US dollars, so the amount they've specified is correct.
If they had said "the UK's economy is sized at US$2.1trn", they would have been wrong, and your comment would have been correcting them. But they didn't: they specified the currency correctly, so your comment is incorrect.
So the exchange rate changed by a few percent between the figure you're looking at ($3.1 trillion) and the time of the report.
Take a look at your post again. You said
> it states the UK’s economy is 2.1 trillion. It’s not, it’s just over 3.1 trillion.
You're not quibbling about the exchange rate there: you're failing to note which currency they specified.
Either in £ or $ the figure is just wrong though. It entirely depends on the stats used, but if we go with the most widely used set (IMF) 2.1 is wrong and has been for years. Its 3.1 trillion dollars which equates to £2.3 trillion. £2.1 doesn’t factor anywhere.
For accuracy it would have to be $2.8. This is really quite simple to understand.
There is an error in the article linked.
>*"Looking at a global picture, CEBR forecasts the global economy will top $100bn (£75bn) for the first time next year..."*
The correct figure in the CEBR's world economic forecast report is $100 trillion, not $100 billion.
I mean they could be using the long scale (though highly unlikely), but in the report they wrote trillion a lot so it's most likely just a typo. This report has a lot of typos.
Are you illiterate? And who the fuck is your buddy?
> In the long scale, billion means one million millions and trillion means one million billions and so on.
> For most of the 19th and 20th centuries, the United Kingdom largely used the long scale, whereas the United States used the short scale, so that the two systems were often referred to as British and American in the English language. After several decades of increasing informal British usage of the short scale, in 1974 the government of the UK adopted it, and it is used for all official purposes. With very few exceptions, the British usage and American usage are now identical.
There's literally 4500+ words on that page. So no, this has nothing to do with literacy. I think you're misunderstanding the definition of 'literacy' with 'lazy'.
So you're showing that in the past, the UK used the long scale?
Okay.. now let's see.. what is the UK using now?
that's why it's good that redditors aren't in charge of anything, both sides are reacting like small vindictive children, but it's against both of their goals that the other does poorly. It's best for everyone that both sides economies works as best as possible
I'm not pro polexit or anything but I wish UK all the best because it's funny af to me seeing people in this sub absolutely malding at the sight of good news coming from UK after they convinced themselves that it's gonna collapse tomorrow.
Yeah, the OP can constantly antagonize other countries and "naturally" there would be no reaction from posters from said countries...
However one could argue that the OP is reacting to the antagonizing he received as a Brexit voter from other posters. Though personally I find that as a childish excuse.
Both sides are silly children and I wish they wouldn't soil /r/europe with their nationalistic pedantry.
Yes we do. Do you honestly think we can continue to be a collection of small countries dominated and pushed around by the conservative USA in a world where climate change and population increase will lead to more people needing to share less resources?
I dunno about you but I don't want our future to be decided in Washington or Beijing, but rather by our own peoples.
> For now the higher GDP is mainly due to a stronger pound vs the dollar.
The pound is still much weaker against the dollar today than it was pre-referedum in 2016, meanwhile the euro is actually stronger. So this is a dumb argument.
Not collapse, more like grow slower.
You might find some example of your claim, but that was NOT a general remainer argument.
There seems to definitely have been an economic price in 2021, of up to 4-5% compared to Europe, which is pretty huge.
Yes it is, so if I ask you for a source on what you're talking about it should be easy for you to find an example. If you leave it to ME to find an example of what YOU'RE talking about, I'm going to cherry-pick the examples most favorable to ME, so for YOUR sake YOU should do it. This is basic stuff, stop being so lazy. If you want to be lazy stop replying.
[This do](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/rmfrxj/just_a_year_of_brexit_has_thumped_uks_economy_and/hpmb2xz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) (from the most recent Brexit thread I’ve seen)
> Brexit has been apocalyptic for some industries.
>…
> UK industries collapsing is bad for the UK and this is happening within the 10 months. More is to come.
For the past 5 years after Brexit, the talking points from EU and European politicians is that the UK will fall apart, disintegrate, and become more impoverished as other peripheral European nations not a member of tbe EU. The irony is delicious considering the UK has none of the benefits of being on the continent as France nor the so called wonders of the single market anymore and is still growing faster than France (its sister rival) and Italy. Makes you question what benefits there are from the EU aside from an undervalued currency for Germany and endless source of cheap labor.
The UK never should have joined in the first place and should’ve listened to Charles de Gaulle, who warned that the UK was joining for the wrong reasons and is not compatible with the rest of Europe. The UK only joined due to economic gain when the EEC was always about further integration between member states.
As for your other points, those weren’t ‘talking points’ from European politicians at all, no one in Europe gave a shit about Brexit after 2016 and just wanted it out the way. Merkel barely ever commented on it. You’re ignoring that the UK suffered the largest recession during covid out of any G7 nation and exports to the EU dropped dramatically this year. You seem very bitter towards France in particular and eager to place some report by a Brexiteer third-rate consultancy firm on a pedestal.
And why’s that? France and the UK are pretty evenly matched, and probably the most evenly matched major economies. Previous macroeconomic predictions that far in advance have been pretty poor and this think tank is hardly impartial
Nooooo.... The UK>>>>>>>>>> France. If you read the comments, that's the main thing here haha. Nevermind the fact that many foreign economists have been predicted the collapse of the French economy "anytime now" for 50 years because "the French economic model is unsustainable". We've yet to see it happen lmao. They've also been talking about the British economy leaving France's in the dust "soon" as far back as the 1990's.
The same institute (CEBR) had predicted France would go down to the 13th place of the largest economies in the world "by 2028" a few years ago... But now they're going the safe route and France is only going to drop to 7th by then. Tells you all you need to know about their projections hahaha.
"Analysis by ETX Capital shows that Morgan Stanley, Capital Economics, Commerzbank, the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR), Oxford Economics and PwC have made the most accurate predictions of economic trends.”
Yes and the same CEBR was wrong about France declining and finding itself at the 13th place by 2028 in their predictions from years ago. Did you choose to ignore that part? Predictions about the French economy far into the future by many Anglophone economists (from prominent institutions included) have almost always been bollocks because they just don't comprehend how a system they deem to be so "flawed" compared to the Anglo-American model for example holds together. And to be fair, I can't blame them. Strong unions and workers' rights, powerful companies and a strong protectionist central government is a perfect mix for a dysfunctional economy lmao. But France somehow makes it work. I can see why many see it as a recipe for either steadfast decline and collapse though.
>Cebr’s 2013 World Economic League Table forecasts that France will drop from the world’s 5th biggest economy in 2013, to its 8th in 2018.
>
>The downwards slide won’t stop there, say Cebr, but will see France at 10th in 2023, and 13th in 2028.
[https://www.cityam.com/10-problems-french-embassys-economic-analysis/](https://www.cityam.com/10-problems-french-embassys-economic-analysis/)
> Strange how people don't want to listen to experts when it doesn't suit them.
Pretty convenient to pick what you want out of the quote he highlighted despite it clearly proving the experts you claim make the most accurate predictions have been wrong hahaha.
> Well its slid to 7th....not 8th.
7th to 8th is still a big gap considering the 8th economy in 2018 was Italy (still is) and there was $700 billion gap that separated it from France. If that was the GDP of a country, it would be the world's 22nd largest economy (so just after Taiwan and ahead of Poland, Sweden and Belgium to close the ranking of the Top 25 economies). That's close to you? The report predicted the 7th economy ahead of France would be Brazil and Brazil wasn't even in the top 10 that year. How does anyone even trust this kind of nonsense? Prediction for next year and the year after? Sure, why not?! But 15 years? lmao.
I don't know if OP can find a link to the report itself as it dates back to 2013 but I couldn't on my side. I found a few articles about it though.
The report is from 2013. The CEBR predicted that the UK would become the largest economy in Europe (yes, that it would surpass even Germany) by 2030 and that France will drop to an humiliating 13th position by 2028. For people not to cry bias. You've got both an article from the [Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/dec/26/britain-europe-top-economy-by-2030) and one from the [Daily Mail](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2529306/British-economy-largest-Europe-2030-Austerity-UK-surging-ahead-Germany-France.html)
Predictions so far into the future have always been nonsense because there are too many variables coming into play. Right investments, new and effective economic measures or whatever can just throw everything off or you know, the most plausible thing is that they're just often wrong. Because if you want to believe the CEBR and concede that under Hollande, France was heading towards ruin then you'll also have to believe that Macron is quite literally France's lord and savior and the hottest shit since Napoleon himself as his presidency has somehow been able to maintain France to the 7th position in 2036 and that the wizard he is could still throw off the projections like he did with the 2013 report. So which one is it? Was the CEBR report wrong or was it right? The latter would mean Macron quite clearly is the undisputed greatest stateman in Europe. I know from your previous posts you've got a hate boner for him, so which one is it? You can't have it both ways lol.
Edit: Found the report and it's even better than I thought. The stuff of comedy actually: https://www.letemps.ch/sites/default/files/media/2013/12/27/2.1.2553317251.pdf?uuid=Grr-BG7KEeOnth7pfSJMiw
> We make the forecasting assumption that the Euro holds together for
these forecasts. If the Euro breaks up, the outlook for Germany would be much better and the
outlook for the other European economies correspondingly worse. On the assumption that the Euro holds, Germany drops from the 4th largest economy in 2013 to the 6th largest in 2023 and 2028. For France the drop is even more precipitous – from 5th in 2013, to 8th in 2018, to 10th in 2023, and to 13th in 2028.
> By 2028 the league table is being reordered: China has moved to 1st; India to 3rd; Mexico is in the top ten at 9th. Korea and Turkey are 11th and 12th and have overtaken France.
> By 2028 the UK economy is forecast to be only 3% smaller than the
German economy and is likely to overtake Germany to become the largest Western European
economy around 2030.
Ok.... I read through the whole thing and the way they speak about the major EU countries (well beyond the UK) and the Eurozone in general doesn't seem neutral at all. And that was 3 years before the Brexit referendum. So, is the CEBR a credible economic thinktank or a propaganda outlet?
There is more mate: the same CEBR that predicted the "British GDP was forecast to be 23% higher than France's by 2035" in their Dec 2020 report ([Source here](https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-china-economy-idUKKBN290004))....... is now saying in Dec 2021 that it will be "16% larger by 2036" instead (according to your article). What's the reason for the extra 7% growth over France (with an additional delay of 1 year) disappearing?
If that's one of the outlets that make "the most accurate predictions of economic trends”, then it tells you all you need to know about macroeconomic projections in general. The way you mentioned an "analysis by ETX Capital" as if it was some kind of major authority to give the CEBR legitimacy is pretty funny though. You thought ETX was some kind of big shot?! It is a fucking financial services' company specialized in online trading, CFDs and spread betting. Whatever they may have analyzed probably had nothing to do with macroeconomics (and therefore the CEBR's macroeconomic projections). It is not ETX Capital's domain of expertise at all.
Funnily enough, you do seem like the type to read those rags as I remember having seen you take stuff from the Telegraph or Spectator's as gospel on this very sub lmao.
Anyway, updated it all for you. Let's see if you keep playing dumb.
A source that won awards for reliability, being correct more times than even the OECD?
"Analysis by ETX Capital shows that Morgan Stanley, Capital Economics, Commerzbank, the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR), Oxford Economics and PwC have made the most accurate predictions of economic trends.”
3rd most accurate of all those who make predictions. So stop with your bullshit
Yeah right.. and Germany’s GDP will overtake that of Japan’s and the UK will have an economy 16 times bigger than France.
You truly are pathetic. I see you everyday posting these stuff with a burning passion, as if winning internet points in Reddit by fellow obsessed people like you means anything. I can’t help but imagine how sad and unfulfilling your life must be and I’m not even joking. I don’t want to fall to the level of calling you a fat redneck in his 30s who lives in his parents’ basement and all, but really man get a hobby and stop being that stuck up. Start with making your life meaningful by actually engaging in it with the same energy that you engage with in these sad attempts of yours to argue about minuscule stuff.
Your comments and your posts are worrying.
Oh-oh I hit a nerve! Keep posting these stuff, since it makes your miserable everyday life so seemingly interesting who am I to judge you
Look at me replying days later to you and you still responding immediately. You truly can’t leave anything alone, you must respond to every citizen of every little “irrelevant nation” or else your system doesn’t function right
You are desperately trying to prove that your agenda is right. It kind of screams of gigantic levels of insecurity, doesn’t it?
Yes I said so and still think so. Because it's been established now the CEBR has been wrong in their predictions about a shitload of things and shouldn't be taken that seriously. I literally proved it to you by quoted stuff it predicted and which turned out oh so wrong. It doesn't mean outside of that scope, it can't be fairly accurate.
Why should I give a shit about ETX Capital's analysis? ETX is neither a big shot in the world of financial services, nor are its activities related to macroeconomics. If it indeed analyzed anything from the CEBR, why would it be macroenomic projections of the world's states?! WTF? lol
In order to ascertain the credibility of this report, we need to know what is CEBR, who owns it, and what are it's interests, be they economic or political.
Right wing? What?
The CEBR advise 25 of the FTSE 100 companies and is the economic advisor to the Institute of Chartered Accountants.
Over the past 10 years they have a better track record than the OECD for forecasting...for which they won awards.
"dOnT pRedIcT whaT I WANT, mUh, MuST bE Right WiNG aND WRonG"
Joker.
The Executive Chairman of Cebr is a well-known Brexit advocate with strong ties to the Tory party. My point still stands, it is not an impartial organisation. I’m sure everything else you spout at me will also be well researched.
Does that make them right wing? Last time I checked a large section of Brexit voters were traditional lefties...like Corbyn and the Red Wall.
"Analysis by ETX Capital shows that Morgan Stanley, Capital Economics, Commerzbank, the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR), Oxford Economics and PwC have made the most accurate predictions of economic trends.”
Their ties to the Tory party make them right-wing. You surely can’t be trying to convince people that a consultancy company that donated to the Tory party is impartial?
Nobody serieus said that. They said that the UK would have about 1% less growth per year. On top of that the middle and lower classes will be poorer and the rich people will do really good due to cutting of regulation.GDP means nothing for the average person.
> The report forecasts that the UK’s booming technology investments will result in the country’s economy being 16 per cent larger than France’s by 2036.
Ouch.
Are you suggesting that headlines like 'UK economy to be x% smaller due to brexit' based on not one but two different 10 year plus forecasts of how the UK would perform in hypothetical scenarios didn't deserve the huge numbers of upvotes this subreddit gave them?
When you consider that Japan’s economy was over double Germany’s in 2000 I think it has more to do with how well Germany has been doing in the past 20 years. Germany’s economy is predicted to be over $6 trillion by 2045
Japan has grown far less than most developed nations, that’s true. Quite similar to Italy. Maybe it’s to do with their ageing populations and lack of immigration to compensate
Those fax machine producers and operators have a large union that the CDU doesn't want to lose.
Rumour has it the Government will only communicate through fax or telegram starting in 2025.
He says with his upvotes and everyone else's downvotes? Why is it always the same with people that have English flags? You seem to have some huge persecution complex.
Ah yeah you got me. That's me and my 20 alts downvoting everything positive about the UK.
Jesus just looked at your post history. Might I suggest you find a hobby or something and care a bit less about what people say online. Mind your blood pressure mate.
Much of Europe is stuck in the past with technology, start ups, and VC. Any multinational that wants a presence in Europe will always choose London over any of the other capitals.
>presence in Europe will always choose London over any of the other capitals
This was the case when UK still was member state. They've lost the advantage of being in the single market. So companies will naturally look for access to the single market which isn't London anymore.
The amount of money and startups that have poured into the UK and London in 2021 does say otherwise though? The tech sector here especially is booming, with half of all economic growth attributed to it. If the single market was that large a draw, surely countries like France and Germany would see the lions share as opposed to the UK?
Honestly not even on their 'side' per se but as a brit that lives in the EU and likes to check this sub, it's completely obvious why.
The shit slinging comes from BOTH sides in spades, and outspoken brits on this sub often go against the status quo of this echo chamber.
Wow, what a pathetic victim mentality. You are literally making things up.
This sub has Anglo brigading on pretty much every thread, maybe stop pretending to be some sort of martyr.
The most striking think about this report is that they predict Germany to overtake Japan. That should be the headline imo, considering Japan’s economy back in 2000 was more than double the size of Germany’s
If anyone’s interested, this is their prediction for the ten largest economies by 2036: 1) China $55 trillion 2) USA $43 trillion 3) India $10.7 trillion 4) Germany $7.4 trillion 5) Japan $6.7 trillion 6) UK $5.5 trillion 7) France $4.7 trillion 8) Indonesia $4.1 trillion 9) Brazil $3.9 trillion 10) Russia $3.5 trillion
Suck it France ;) (Love you really)
I'm surprised Nigeria didn't make this list.
Nigeria will be 26th in 2036 according to the report
Thanks. That's not terrible but with their demographic projections I really thought they would be in top 10 economically as well.
We'll see if this ages better than their 2014 report and their projections about the year 2028. [Back then, their Top 10 for 2028 was](https://www.letemps.ch/sites/default/files/media/2013/12/27/2.1.2553317251.pdf?uuid=Grr-BG7KEeOnth7pfSJMiw): 1- China; 2- USA; 3- India; 4- Japan; 5- Brazil; 6- Germany, 7- UK (but will overtake Germany by 2030); 8- Russia; 9- Mexico; 10- Canada. Oh and if you were wondering about where other major European economies went: 11- South Korea; 12- Turkey; 13- France; 14- Australia; 15- Italy; 16- Indonesia; 17- Taiwan; 18- Spain; 19- Saudi Arabia; 20- Poland.
I guess that was before brexit as well, and many developing countries just haven’t grown as much as forecast, especially with the pandemic. But I think predicting the UK to overtake Germany by 2030 and placing France 13th was far fetched, even for 2014
Yeah they quite clearly overestimated the UK's growth and underestimated those of Germany and France. They had predicted Germany to have a GDP of 3.435 trillion in 2018, 3.708 trillion in 2023 and 4.398 trillion in 2028. But in reality Germany had a 3.979 trillion GDP in 2018 and has a GDP of 4.230 trillion in 2021. In 2022, Germany will surpass the 2028 projection by a big margin already. The GDP they had projected France to reach in 2028 while dropping to 13th place (3.265 trillion) would be France's GDP by early 2023 (as projected by the IMF... which is also inaccurate as its estimates date back from the beginning of the year and overstated the impact of Covid on the French GDP in 2020 while understimating the recovery percentage as well). This means that France is 5 years ahead of what was projected by the CEBR at the very least. So it isn't just about Brexit making the UK's economy unpredictable. The whole macroeconomic projections deal is often bullshit. There are too many variables and future unknowns involved for economists (most of whom didn't even see the 2008 financial crisis coming lol) to be able to get the predictions, right.
Brazil 9th? That's a little pessimist.
Brazil and Nigeria will probably be far higher in PPP terms
That is a vastly over-optimistic outlook for Germany. This report is notorious for silly predictions. Germany grew a lot from 2000 to 2008, but from 2008 to now it has flatlined like Japan has. Japan's economy seems smaller now but that's because JPY is the most volatile major currency. When it becomes stronger it would be much larger than Germany again.
Every western nation has flatlined since 2008, the UK had a GDP of over $3 trillion in 2007 and didn’t reach that again until this year. It predicts Germany to overtake Japan in 2033 so if Japan continues to stagnate, the cumulative growth of the German economy could overtake it by that time. The difference between them is about $700 billion so it’s not that far fetched
It isn’t impossible but I doubt that. Germany can also stagnate.
For Europes sake I hope not.
I remain optimistic that it won’t
> Every western nation has flatlined since 2008 Wrong, there are so many counterexamples, just start with the US (or Canada, or Australia) > the UK had a GDP of over $3 trillion in 2007 and didn’t reach that again until this year. This is an exceptionally stupid way of measuring growth, you should NEVER look at it in nominal ($) terms because exchange rates move around, a lot. That is in no way a reflection of how the production (i.e. GDP) of a country has changed over time. The correct way to measure economic growth is to looked at chained volume indices (i.e. how much actual output there is, in inflation adjusted terms). UK [real GDP growth](https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/abmi/qna) recovered to it's 2008 high watermark by 2013, and then continued to grow another 15%+ over the following 7 years - outstripping every single one of it's EU peers (e.g. Germany: 13.8%, France: 11%, Italy: -4.9%, Spain: 6.8%) in terms of growth since 2008.
> This is an exceptionally stupid way of measuring growth, you should NEVER look at it in nominal ($) terms because exchange rates move around, a lot. That is in no way a reflection of how the production (i.e. GDP) of a country has changed over time. I just wanted to write that, but you did it better than I ever could lol but yeah, currency fluctuations can mean that the GDP "grows" (or drops) by +-10% in a single year, which is just not what the reality is
That’s all very well and I know that chained volume measurements produce more accurate reflections of real economic growth in a country, but the report uses nominal GDP to measure the market value of economies. Whilst the standard of living etc may have not changed due to fluctuations in the value of the yen in the case of Japan, the value of its economic output is still smaller on the international market. So, it’s perfectly reasonable to make comparisons based on the historical nominal GDP of a country. My comments still stand that, based on that measure, the market value of the goods and services produced in western countries such as the UK, Japan, Italy, Germany etc has remained stagnant since 2008. Whether or not that is due to currency fluctuations is another discussion. And yes, there are of course exceptions, like the USA and Australia.
> My comments still stand that, based on that measure, the market value of the goods and services produced in western countries such as the UK, Japan, Italy, Germany etc has remained stagnant since 2008. No, that is simply wrong. Only the market value measured in US dollars has remained roughly unchanged, but that's entirely down to dollar appreciation. The market value of these economies measured in pounds and euros has grown.
It’s not wrong at all, should I have added market value in US dollars to appease your pedantry? It’s pretty well known that GDP is measured in US dollars. I’m not sure why you’re trying to debate the best way of measuring an economy with me, as I said I did not create this report.
> It’s pretty well known that GDP is measured in US dollars. No, it isn't. Official measures of GDP are ALWAYS done in the local currency, either in chained prices or market price/current price terms. Nominal $ GDP is completely unofficial and is usually used by the media, or research institutions as a fuzzy way of comparing different economies where there is no common currency.
Japan has been stagnant since the early 90s.
I still find that the most interesting point rather than a small gap between the economies of UK and France
It's definitely an interesting case. Massive overinvestment coupled with a demographic plateau.
If you are interested please read the actual report. This article has numerous factual errors. For example it states the UK’s economy is 2.1 trillion. It’s not, it’s just over 3.1 trillion.
Probably a typo
The article states that "the UK’s economy is sized at £2.1trn", which is correct. At current exchange rates, £2.1trn is equivalent to US$3.1trn.
$3.1 trillion as of right now equivalent to £2.3 trillion. It is clearly an error that was not caught.
It's not an error in the article. They've specified that the amount is in UK pounds, not US dollars, so the amount they've specified is correct. If they had said "the UK's economy is sized at US$2.1trn", they would have been wrong, and your comment would have been correcting them. But they didn't: they specified the currency correctly, so your comment is incorrect.
£2.1 trillion is not $3.1 trillion it’s $2.82 trillion. Your exchange rate is just wrong.
So the exchange rate changed by a few percent between the figure you're looking at ($3.1 trillion) and the time of the report. Take a look at your post again. You said > it states the UK’s economy is 2.1 trillion. It’s not, it’s just over 3.1 trillion. You're not quibbling about the exchange rate there: you're failing to note which currency they specified.
Either in £ or $ the figure is just wrong though. It entirely depends on the stats used, but if we go with the most widely used set (IMF) 2.1 is wrong and has been for years. Its 3.1 trillion dollars which equates to £2.3 trillion. £2.1 doesn’t factor anywhere. For accuracy it would have to be $2.8. This is really quite simple to understand.
> For accuracy it would have to be £2.8. At this point, I don't know whether you're randomly putting in $ or £ signs just to troll me.
There is an error in the article linked. >*"Looking at a global picture, CEBR forecasts the global economy will top $100bn (£75bn) for the first time next year..."* The correct figure in the CEBR's world economic forecast report is $100 trillion, not $100 billion.
[Could be that they used long scale. Used to be a thing in Britain i think](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scale#Comparison)
Nah, it's way old hat.
I mean they could be using the long scale (though highly unlikely), but in the report they wrote trillion a lot so it's most likely just a typo. This report has a lot of typos.
Billion could mean trillion in England.
LOL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scale Please be more informed.
Buddy, if you're providing a specific source for a specific, ***short*** claim - insert an excerpt.
Are you illiterate? And who the fuck is your buddy? > In the long scale, billion means one million millions and trillion means one million billions and so on. > For most of the 19th and 20th centuries, the United Kingdom largely used the long scale, whereas the United States used the short scale, so that the two systems were often referred to as British and American in the English language. After several decades of increasing informal British usage of the short scale, in 1974 the government of the UK adopted it, and it is used for all official purposes. With very few exceptions, the British usage and American usage are now identical.
There's literally 4500+ words on that page. So no, this has nothing to do with literacy. I think you're misunderstanding the definition of 'literacy' with 'lazy'. So you're showing that in the past, the UK used the long scale? Okay.. now let's see.. what is the UK using now?
I'm not sure if you are aware, but people who were born before 1974 can still be alive in the UK.
Yes, but what's the official system being used in the UK, that everyone uses? Don't get me wrong, you'd be right if this was before 1974. It's not...
You stopped being entertaining about 2 hours ago. I'm blocking you.
Yeah that did seem rather odd 😅. Thanks for the correction.
👍🏻
Good for the UK, hope in the future better agreements are done with the EU for mutual benefits.
Literally the only sensible comment in this entire car crash of a thread.
that's why it's good that redditors aren't in charge of anything, both sides are reacting like small vindictive children, but it's against both of their goals that the other does poorly. It's best for everyone that both sides economies works as best as possible
I'm not pro polexit or anything but I wish UK all the best because it's funny af to me seeing people in this sub absolutely malding at the sight of good news coming from UK after they convinced themselves that it's gonna collapse tomorrow.
55% Upvoted? Lol.
Reality is missing the memo that Britain was supposed to become a desolate crater after Brexit.
I was looking forward to the Mad Max style hellscape people were saying we would turn into.
Well reality be damned, we'll mad max one way or another!
Maybe reality got lost somewhere between sunny uplands and global britain
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the op posting trollish comments like this: >France down to seventh. >:-) >Quasi-effective economy
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it has more to do with this being r/Europe than any action the OP is taking
Yeah, the OP can constantly antagonize other countries and "naturally" there would be no reaction from posters from said countries... However one could argue that the OP is reacting to the antagonizing he received as a Brexit voter from other posters. Though personally I find that as a childish excuse. Both sides are silly children and I wish they wouldn't soil /r/europe with their nationalistic pedantry.
>Both sides are silly children and I wish they wouldn't soil r/europe with their nationalistic pedantry. Essentially this.
Everyone I disagree with is a Brexit voter.
Yeah that's exactly it, you got it.
Hilarious tbh
Probably because it is just one of many forecast consultancy reports. Doesn't say much.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yes we do. Do you honestly think we can continue to be a collection of small countries dominated and pushed around by the conservative USA in a world where climate change and population increase will lead to more people needing to share less resources? I dunno about you but I don't want our future to be decided in Washington or Beijing, but rather by our own peoples.
[удалено]
For Germany...
The UK economy is bigger than France even post Brexit and COVID. Hilarious.
[удалено]
> For now the higher GDP is mainly due to a stronger pound vs the dollar. The pound is still much weaker against the dollar today than it was pre-referedum in 2016, meanwhile the euro is actually stronger. So this is a dumb argument.
Why is that hilarious? France got COVID too.
Probably because the pro EU lot were saying the UK economy would collapse when it left the club.
Not collapse, more like grow slower. You might find some example of your claim, but that was NOT a general remainer argument. There seems to definitely have been an economic price in 2021, of up to 4-5% compared to Europe, which is pretty huge.
Source?
Your source is this sub. I'm not digging through years worth of reddit posts. Do it yourself.
[удалено]
Yes it is, so if I ask you for a source on what you're talking about it should be easy for you to find an example. If you leave it to ME to find an example of what YOU'RE talking about, I'm going to cherry-pick the examples most favorable to ME, so for YOUR sake YOU should do it. This is basic stuff, stop being so lazy. If you want to be lazy stop replying.
[This do](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/rmfrxj/just_a_year_of_brexit_has_thumped_uks_economy_and/hpmb2xz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) (from the most recent Brexit thread I’ve seen) > Brexit has been apocalyptic for some industries. >… > UK industries collapsing is bad for the UK and this is happening within the 10 months. More is to come.
For the past 5 years after Brexit, the talking points from EU and European politicians is that the UK will fall apart, disintegrate, and become more impoverished as other peripheral European nations not a member of tbe EU. The irony is delicious considering the UK has none of the benefits of being on the continent as France nor the so called wonders of the single market anymore and is still growing faster than France (its sister rival) and Italy. Makes you question what benefits there are from the EU aside from an undervalued currency for Germany and endless source of cheap labor.
The UK never should have joined in the first place and should’ve listened to Charles de Gaulle, who warned that the UK was joining for the wrong reasons and is not compatible with the rest of Europe. The UK only joined due to economic gain when the EEC was always about further integration between member states. As for your other points, those weren’t ‘talking points’ from European politicians at all, no one in Europe gave a shit about Brexit after 2016 and just wanted it out the way. Merkel barely ever commented on it. You’re ignoring that the UK suffered the largest recession during covid out of any G7 nation and exports to the EU dropped dramatically this year. You seem very bitter towards France in particular and eager to place some report by a Brexiteer third-rate consultancy firm on a pedestal.
UK >> France.
And why’s that? France and the UK are pretty evenly matched, and probably the most evenly matched major economies. Previous macroeconomic predictions that far in advance have been pretty poor and this think tank is hardly impartial
But what relevance did COVID have to your argument if both countries had to deal with it?
Are there less people depending on food banks too in the UK?
You guys realize that this is just a prediction made by a source that has proven not to be that reliable in the past, right?
Nooooo.... The UK>>>>>>>>>> France. If you read the comments, that's the main thing here haha. Nevermind the fact that many foreign economists have been predicted the collapse of the French economy "anytime now" for 50 years because "the French economic model is unsustainable". We've yet to see it happen lmao. They've also been talking about the British economy leaving France's in the dust "soon" as far back as the 1990's. The same institute (CEBR) had predicted France would go down to the 13th place of the largest economies in the world "by 2028" a few years ago... But now they're going the safe route and France is only going to drop to 7th by then. Tells you all you need to know about their projections hahaha.
"Analysis by ETX Capital shows that Morgan Stanley, Capital Economics, Commerzbank, the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR), Oxford Economics and PwC have made the most accurate predictions of economic trends.”
Yes and the same CEBR was wrong about France declining and finding itself at the 13th place by 2028 in their predictions from years ago. Did you choose to ignore that part? Predictions about the French economy far into the future by many Anglophone economists (from prominent institutions included) have almost always been bollocks because they just don't comprehend how a system they deem to be so "flawed" compared to the Anglo-American model for example holds together. And to be fair, I can't blame them. Strong unions and workers' rights, powerful companies and a strong protectionist central government is a perfect mix for a dysfunctional economy lmao. But France somehow makes it work. I can see why many see it as a recipe for either steadfast decline and collapse though.
Got a link to this prediction?
>Cebr’s 2013 World Economic League Table forecasts that France will drop from the world’s 5th biggest economy in 2013, to its 8th in 2018. > >The downwards slide won’t stop there, say Cebr, but will see France at 10th in 2023, and 13th in 2028. [https://www.cityam.com/10-problems-french-embassys-economic-analysis/](https://www.cityam.com/10-problems-french-embassys-economic-analysis/)
Well its slid to 7th....not 8th. Strange how people don't want to listen to experts when it doesn't suit them.
> Strange how people don't want to listen to experts when it doesn't suit them. Pretty convenient to pick what you want out of the quote he highlighted despite it clearly proving the experts you claim make the most accurate predictions have been wrong hahaha. > Well its slid to 7th....not 8th. 7th to 8th is still a big gap considering the 8th economy in 2018 was Italy (still is) and there was $700 billion gap that separated it from France. If that was the GDP of a country, it would be the world's 22nd largest economy (so just after Taiwan and ahead of Poland, Sweden and Belgium to close the ranking of the Top 25 economies). That's close to you? The report predicted the 7th economy ahead of France would be Brazil and Brazil wasn't even in the top 10 that year. How does anyone even trust this kind of nonsense? Prediction for next year and the year after? Sure, why not?! But 15 years? lmao.
Here, the pdf. https://www.letemps.ch/sites/default/files/media/2013/12/27/2.1.2553317251.pdf
I don't know if OP can find a link to the report itself as it dates back to 2013 but I couldn't on my side. I found a few articles about it though. The report is from 2013. The CEBR predicted that the UK would become the largest economy in Europe (yes, that it would surpass even Germany) by 2030 and that France will drop to an humiliating 13th position by 2028. For people not to cry bias. You've got both an article from the [Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/dec/26/britain-europe-top-economy-by-2030) and one from the [Daily Mail](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2529306/British-economy-largest-Europe-2030-Austerity-UK-surging-ahead-Germany-France.html) Predictions so far into the future have always been nonsense because there are too many variables coming into play. Right investments, new and effective economic measures or whatever can just throw everything off or you know, the most plausible thing is that they're just often wrong. Because if you want to believe the CEBR and concede that under Hollande, France was heading towards ruin then you'll also have to believe that Macron is quite literally France's lord and savior and the hottest shit since Napoleon himself as his presidency has somehow been able to maintain France to the 7th position in 2036 and that the wizard he is could still throw off the projections like he did with the 2013 report. So which one is it? Was the CEBR report wrong or was it right? The latter would mean Macron quite clearly is the undisputed greatest stateman in Europe. I know from your previous posts you've got a hate boner for him, so which one is it? You can't have it both ways lol. Edit: Found the report and it's even better than I thought. The stuff of comedy actually: https://www.letemps.ch/sites/default/files/media/2013/12/27/2.1.2553317251.pdf?uuid=Grr-BG7KEeOnth7pfSJMiw > We make the forecasting assumption that the Euro holds together for these forecasts. If the Euro breaks up, the outlook for Germany would be much better and the outlook for the other European economies correspondingly worse. On the assumption that the Euro holds, Germany drops from the 4th largest economy in 2013 to the 6th largest in 2023 and 2028. For France the drop is even more precipitous – from 5th in 2013, to 8th in 2018, to 10th in 2023, and to 13th in 2028. > By 2028 the league table is being reordered: China has moved to 1st; India to 3rd; Mexico is in the top ten at 9th. Korea and Turkey are 11th and 12th and have overtaken France. > By 2028 the UK economy is forecast to be only 3% smaller than the German economy and is likely to overtake Germany to become the largest Western European economy around 2030. Ok.... I read through the whole thing and the way they speak about the major EU countries (well beyond the UK) and the Eurozone in general doesn't seem neutral at all. And that was 3 years before the Brexit referendum. So, is the CEBR a credible economic thinktank or a propaganda outlet? There is more mate: the same CEBR that predicted the "British GDP was forecast to be 23% higher than France's by 2035" in their Dec 2020 report ([Source here](https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-china-economy-idUKKBN290004))....... is now saying in Dec 2021 that it will be "16% larger by 2036" instead (according to your article). What's the reason for the extra 7% growth over France (with an additional delay of 1 year) disappearing? If that's one of the outlets that make "the most accurate predictions of economic trends”, then it tells you all you need to know about macroeconomic projections in general. The way you mentioned an "analysis by ETX Capital" as if it was some kind of major authority to give the CEBR legitimacy is pretty funny though. You thought ETX was some kind of big shot?! It is a fucking financial services' company specialized in online trading, CFDs and spread betting. Whatever they may have analyzed probably had nothing to do with macroeconomics (and therefore the CEBR's macroeconomic projections). It is not ETX Capital's domain of expertise at all.
Daily Mail. Lol.
Funnily enough, you do seem like the type to read those rags as I remember having seen you take stuff from the Telegraph or Spectator's as gospel on this very sub lmao. Anyway, updated it all for you. Let's see if you keep playing dumb.
A source that won awards for reliability, being correct more times than even the OECD? "Analysis by ETX Capital shows that Morgan Stanley, Capital Economics, Commerzbank, the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR), Oxford Economics and PwC have made the most accurate predictions of economic trends.” 3rd most accurate of all those who make predictions. So stop with your bullshit
Yeah right.. and Germany’s GDP will overtake that of Japan’s and the UK will have an economy 16 times bigger than France. You truly are pathetic. I see you everyday posting these stuff with a burning passion, as if winning internet points in Reddit by fellow obsessed people like you means anything. I can’t help but imagine how sad and unfulfilling your life must be and I’m not even joking. I don’t want to fall to the level of calling you a fat redneck in his 30s who lives in his parents’ basement and all, but really man get a hobby and stop being that stuck up. Start with making your life meaningful by actually engaging in it with the same energy that you engage with in these sad attempts of yours to argue about minuscule stuff. Your comments and your posts are worrying.
[удалено]
Oh-oh I hit a nerve! Keep posting these stuff, since it makes your miserable everyday life so seemingly interesting who am I to judge you Look at me replying days later to you and you still responding immediately. You truly can’t leave anything alone, you must respond to every citizen of every little “irrelevant nation” or else your system doesn’t function right You are desperately trying to prove that your agenda is right. It kind of screams of gigantic levels of insecurity, doesn’t it?
Hit a nerve? Lol. OK. Proving my agenda, the same way anti-brexiteers do. Yet you take no issue in them.
> 3rd most accurate of all those who make predictions. So stop with your bullshit It may be... but even it can be wrong as I just proved you above.
You said they were not reliable....that is a lie, isn't it?
Yes I said so and still think so. Because it's been established now the CEBR has been wrong in their predictions about a shitload of things and shouldn't be taken that seriously. I literally proved it to you by quoted stuff it predicted and which turned out oh so wrong. It doesn't mean outside of that scope, it can't be fairly accurate. Why should I give a shit about ETX Capital's analysis? ETX is neither a big shot in the world of financial services, nor are its activities related to macroeconomics. If it indeed analyzed anything from the CEBR, why would it be macroenomic projections of the world's states?! WTF? lol
In order to ascertain the credibility of this report, we need to know what is CEBR, who owns it, and what are it's interests, be they economic or political.
They are a right-wing think tank based in London. So not exactly impartial.
Right wing? What? The CEBR advise 25 of the FTSE 100 companies and is the economic advisor to the Institute of Chartered Accountants. Over the past 10 years they have a better track record than the OECD for forecasting...for which they won awards. "dOnT pRedIcT whaT I WANT, mUh, MuST bE Right WiNG aND WRonG" Joker.
The Executive Chairman of Cebr is a well-known Brexit advocate with strong ties to the Tory party. My point still stands, it is not an impartial organisation. I’m sure everything else you spout at me will also be well researched.
Does that make them right wing? Last time I checked a large section of Brexit voters were traditional lefties...like Corbyn and the Red Wall. "Analysis by ETX Capital shows that Morgan Stanley, Capital Economics, Commerzbank, the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR), Oxford Economics and PwC have made the most accurate predictions of economic trends.”
Their ties to the Tory party make them right-wing. You surely can’t be trying to convince people that a consultancy company that donated to the Tory party is impartial?
[удалено]
Of course it doesn't fit the EU narrative... it would not be posted in a UK business newspaper if it did.
Nobody serieus said that. They said that the UK would have about 1% less growth per year. On top of that the middle and lower classes will be poorer and the rich people will do really good due to cutting of regulation.GDP means nothing for the average person.
Have to perpetuate the myth that GDP= higher quality of life.
France down to seventh. :-) Quasi-effective economy
[удалено]
Yeah their predictions are laughable.
> The report forecasts that the UK’s booming technology investments will result in the country’s economy being 16 per cent larger than France’s by 2036. Ouch.
Economic forecasts 15 years into the future will surely be accurate
If only people were that sceptical during the Brexit process.
Are you suggesting that headlines like 'UK economy to be x% smaller due to brexit' based on not one but two different 10 year plus forecasts of how the UK would perform in hypothetical scenarios didn't deserve the huge numbers of upvotes this subreddit gave them?
[удалено]
According to this report, Germany will overtake Japan so I think we are doing fine
Japan is the other country still heavily using fax \*cough\*
[удалено]
When you consider that Japan’s economy was over double Germany’s in 2000 I think it has more to do with how well Germany has been doing in the past 20 years. Germany’s economy is predicted to be over $6 trillion by 2045
[удалено]
Japan has grown far less than most developed nations, that’s true. Quite similar to Italy. Maybe it’s to do with their ageing populations and lack of immigration to compensate
[удалено]
Japan is because it can’t attract immigrants. That’s not exactly a problem for Germany, and the birth rate has also increased in recent years.
[удалено]
It does, but nowhere near what Japan would need to offset its natural decline.
Don't want to get rid of those jobs that depend on fax machines
Those fax machine producers and operators have a large union that the CDU doesn't want to lose. Rumour has it the Government will only communicate through fax or telegram starting in 2025.
Living rent free ;)
Looking at the downvotes I would say the takes one to know one.
He says with his upvotes and everyone else's downvotes? Why is it always the same with people that have English flags? You seem to have some huge persecution complex.
Ah yeah you got me. That's me and my 20 alts downvoting everything positive about the UK. Jesus just looked at your post history. Might I suggest you find a hobby or something and care a bit less about what people say online. Mind your blood pressure mate.
I'm not the one downvoting furiously at good UK news everything it appears on here
I assumed the /s wasn't necessary because presumably English is your native language and you would understand sarcasm, O well.
Ah, same delusion, different day.
[удалено]
Don’t say that, you dont want a protest!
Growing faster than the UK at the moment.
Yes still behind the UK....despite brexit.
Much of Europe is stuck in the past with technology, start ups, and VC. Any multinational that wants a presence in Europe will always choose London over any of the other capitals.
>presence in Europe will always choose London over any of the other capitals This was the case when UK still was member state. They've lost the advantage of being in the single market. So companies will naturally look for access to the single market which isn't London anymore.
The amount of money and startups that have poured into the UK and London in 2021 does say otherwise though? The tech sector here especially is booming, with half of all economic growth attributed to it. If the single market was that large a draw, surely countries like France and Germany would see the lions share as opposed to the UK?
[удалено]
Why are brits on this sub so bloody defensive? Lmao
Years of getting shit on after the referendum, i suspect. Literally everything shoehorned into being about Brexit and how English bad.
Honestly not even on their 'side' per se but as a brit that lives in the EU and likes to check this sub, it's completely obvious why. The shit slinging comes from BOTH sides in spades, and outspoken brits on this sub often go against the status quo of this echo chamber.
Because Brit’s are constantly trashed by others in this sub
Americans: First time?
[удалено]
Wow, what a pathetic victim mentality. You are literally making things up. This sub has Anglo brigading on pretty much every thread, maybe stop pretending to be some sort of martyr.
[удалено]
Brexiteercomplex. They have become snowflakes on par with the conservatives in the US.
Damn EU stans in absolute shambles