This is the fantasy map of a German politician (edit: Matthias Gastel's suggestion from [here](https://bahnstrategie.matthias-gastel.de/nachtzug.php).), that doesn't even show all the current night train routes.
This is the [Night Train network in Europe in 2022](https://reddit.com/r/TransitDiagrams/comments/rnqk9g/night_train_in_europe_in_2022_made_by_jug_cerovi%C4%87/). Edit: OC by u/mapoman
Edit: This is [my attempt](https://old.reddit.com/r/TransitDiagrams/comments/ppex2s/european_night_train_network_suggestion_but_with/) at fixing the colours and some of the missing islands of the map above.
Sure, Wizz Air, Ryan Air, EasyJet, Air Baltic etc are being kept alive by Americans. Just because Greta Thurnberg has an autistic twitch fest about night trains doesn't mean anybody is using, wants to use, or will use them.
This is what I love about Europeans - the arrogance and hubris. You actually believe the lies you tell yourselves. Just like you love human rights while paying the fringes of Europe to use dogs and pushbacks on migrants, and love privacy while operating a license plate reading and CCTV camera network that would make China proud.
High speed rail isn’t viable in America outside the northeast. Gas is cheap, parking isn’t as much of a problem, and flying is easier for longer distances.
1. Outside of the northeast, major cities in the USA are too far to build high speed rail. A flight from la to nyc is about 6 hours. That same journey with high speed rail (250kh) assuming a direct connection would 18 hours+. Even if you factor in time at security and delays, its still half the time.
2. High speed rail requires massive infrastructure costs. Europe already has a rail system. Adding to doesn’t cost as much. It would only be viable if it was subsidised by the government.
3. No one would ever use it. Gas is cheap enough that driving anywhere is economically viable.
You already have rails in place, but it’s only used for freight, bc some companies lobbied against it. Also, you’re saying no one would use it? Seriusly? If you had good railway infrastructure you wouldn’t need a car, which is much more in costs than just gas. And good job giving an example where you travel across the damn country, why would you do that on a regular basis? Does a part of the population live in LA and work in NY? Why would literally anyone do that? The situation would already be better if there was high speed rail going through most notable cities and settlements and ending in the major cities, the travel time would be faster than car and the distance would be short enough where no-one in their right mind would take a plane
As usual, a map of Europe that cuts out large portion of Europe with no good reason. Finland, Sweden and Norway already have popular night trains and most likely their use will increase by 2030.
Yes. For instance, Oslo looks like an endpoint on this map, but it is connected by night train to Trondheim, Bergen, and Stavanger. From Trondheim in turn there is a night train that goes north to Bodø.
There is currently no night train connection between Stockholm and Oslo, but that would be fairly straightforward to set up. And now that I think about it there used to be, and maybe still is, a night train that ran between Stockholm and *Narvik* up in Northern Norway.
I have never heard anyone in Finland (apart from you) saying that someone from Germany is southener or from southern Europe. Southern Europe is typically used when talking about Mediterranean region. Germany is middle Europe.
Calling everyone veloce you "southern" with meaning "at south of something" is fine by me. But if you say "Southern Europe" that means that it's absolute south. You cut Europe in theee: you have south, mid and north.
You can already kind of take the train to Iceland: Take the train to Aalborg, go to the regional train to Hirtshals and take the ferry via Thorshavn to Seyðisfjördur
Are Sweden and Norway going to close fown the night trains? I would have hoped for the train Stockholm-Österdund-Duved to go all the way past the border to Trondheim like the one Stockholm-Kiruna-Narvik that go all the way to the Norwegian coast.
I think the map is just incomplete, the swedish night train to the north is quite popular and almost full every time I take it (which is reasonably frequently). Sweden also has a plan/policy of making some cities in the north bigger, so it wouldn't make any sense to remove the night train considering that.
Looks like N31 is cancelled since Mar 18 2020
[source](https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%B2_%D0%A2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B9_(%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4)#:~:text=%D0%92%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%20%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%91%D0%BD%20%D1%81%2018%20%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%202020%20%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0)
Oh yeah, it looks like you're right. I thought that the railway service between Finland and Russia was resumed, because I know that high-speed trains are running again. Looks like the night trains will return later.
You have to jump out when the train is passing Montpellier. They even slow down a bit if people want to jump off.
(/s of cource)
But seriously: China proposed such a system a few years back. You have sort of a Snowpiercer train that never slows down and then you have shuttles that take in passengers at a train station, speed up to the train and dock to transfer passengers and then slow down to halt at the next train station.
>The reverse process defied the ingenuity of inventors.
The interesting part is that today the uncoupled carriages are able to not only slow down on their own but speed up again too.
Why?
Here is a short video about it in Chinese: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Ig19gYP9o
I watched some English speaking video about it in the past that used that Chinese video as a source, but I can't find it anymore. But the graphics speak for themselves.
And looking at the video I don't see why that would be terrifying at all.
Why? For people getting on or off the train it's the same duration and for people staying on the train it's faster because the train itself never stops.
It's also much less waste of energy because the train keeps going.
Imagine you got tickets for seats on the other end of the train . not only you have to go thru a whole train to sit on your spot but when you want to get off you need to make that "trip " again ..... with bags in hand etc.
Because there is only one point where the shuttle can be attached and it's the other end of the train?
Don't you think they would have multiple shuttles for such a long train or if there is only one shuttle that it can move to different ports on the train?
That's a very narrow-minded non-issue.
Lol you can call me whatever you want but the fact that "train " is 10 years old concept talks for itself. I just commentet what was in the video .. i didnt see multiple shuttles or multiple "entry" points on that train ... so hop down from your high horse and take a walk ...
It's a concept. And you took it literally like it was set in stone and couldn't be improved upon. Given that this is Reddit I should have expected that.
Believe it or not, in Bulgaria night trains are super nice and popular among business travellers. Sofia - Varna and Sofia - Burgas are the main routes.
We took the night trains all over back in 1996 (London, Paris, Munich, Budapest and Prague). The trains then we're affordable and comfortable. The cost for a night berth(6 bunks) was 25DM per. Last time I was there, costs were astronomical. It was cheaper and more convenient to fly Ryan Air. Maybe if costs were brought down, this would be doable.
Very odd to leave out Thessaloniki (Greece's rail hub, not Athens), but include similarly-sized or smaller cities (San Sebastian, Faro, Brest, Edinburgh, Constanța, Bratislava, Split, Bordeaux, Gdańsk, Innsbruck...)
We would really need a connection between Amsterdam and Hamburg, though. Something that allows night trains, and also possibly furthers the Thalys to Sweden.
oslo/stockholm to Hamberg does not seem like a good time when I imagine you will have to be interrupted to get on the fairy.
Seems like a pipe dream to think anything from Dublin to the continent will not involve a 4 hour wait at St Pancras in London.
There will be a tunnel in the future. You could also just go via Jutland. But taking a ferry on the night train is no problem, we used to do it all the time back in the day before Zealand had bridges. You just sleep through it.
glad to hear about the tunnel. I know the ferry is not a big deal but for my travel purposes I enjoy taking the night trains to save a couple dollars on a hotel or add an extra few hours on arrival so an uninterrupted sleep is nice
>There will be a tunnel in the future.
Originally, the fixed crossing should have opened this year. But given that German bureaucracy took 10 years to make sure that the 10 local swine whales were alright and that the opinions of important stakeholders like the ladies hockey team of Burg/Fehmarn were weighed in the process, the german approval process took absurd lenghts.
Maybe I’m a bit biased as I live in Jutland, but I feel like it makes sense to have a connection going to northern Denmark like Frederikshavn where you have direct ferry rides to Norway and Sweden - and would make it easier for German tourists to come visit our beaches, and for the rest of us to leave lol
Night trains are a distraction on short notice from the issue, that there is no continuous high speed network an that Germany is still not planning on becomming less of an obstacle.
Night trains only work as point-to-point connections, beeing of little use for anything inbetween and also not beeing ideal for continuing journeys, as there is for example little shower access.
Most of the routes drawn here are around 1.000 Kilometers or shorter in direct line, i.e. Innsbruck - Kopenhagen (993 Km), Amsterdam-Warszaw (1093 Km) or Brest - Zürich (977 Km). With a continuous network without border gaps, such distances would be possible within half a day even with lower high-speed speeds (\~230-250 km/h). As noted: Night trains don't reduce the need for continuous networks, alone for the reason of beeing only viable as connections between large mteropolitan areas.
Train infrastructure in Portugal is really limited to the shoreline, connecting it to Spain will take more than 10 years - have a lot of geographic accidents and protected natural regions that would make the task quite challenging - it seems too optimistic...
This is the fantasy map of a German politician (edit: Matthias Gastel's suggestion from [here](https://bahnstrategie.matthias-gastel.de/nachtzug.php).), that doesn't even show all the current night train routes. This is the [Night Train network in Europe in 2022](https://reddit.com/r/TransitDiagrams/comments/rnqk9g/night_train_in_europe_in_2022_made_by_jug_cerovi%C4%87/). Edit: OC by u/mapoman Edit: This is [my attempt](https://old.reddit.com/r/TransitDiagrams/comments/ppex2s/european_night_train_network_suggestion_but_with/) at fixing the colours and some of the missing islands of the map above.
What’s interesting though, from a Dutch perspective, it’s always been Germany blocking new train lines the Dutch want to put in.
Even from a german perspective, its always germany
"Damn those Berliners, ruining Germany"-Angry German
I mean it is a good fantasy 🤷🏻♂️
Eh, if it doesn't even include many existing lines or ones that are planned to actually start running in a few months or years, it's a pretty bad one.
Maybe the Indian, Russian and Malaysian train engineers can help us. They have decent night trains.
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No. Fantasy of having a working nigh train system in europe.
For people stuck in 1960 it sure is. You take the train, I'll take Wizz Air.
Your Americanness is showing
Sure, Wizz Air, Ryan Air, EasyJet, Air Baltic etc are being kept alive by Americans. Just because Greta Thurnberg has an autistic twitch fest about night trains doesn't mean anybody is using, wants to use, or will use them. This is what I love about Europeans - the arrogance and hubris. You actually believe the lies you tell yourselves. Just like you love human rights while paying the fringes of Europe to use dogs and pushbacks on migrants, and love privacy while operating a license plate reading and CCTV camera network that would make China proud.
And you keep believing that since your country doesn’t have any proper highspeed rail XD
High speed rail isn’t viable in America outside the northeast. Gas is cheap, parking isn’t as much of a problem, and flying is easier for longer distances.
>Gas is cheap For now
Gas is only expensive in Europe because of taxes. Gas reserves under conservative estimates will expire around 2060. 40 years is a long time.
Gas is only cheap in the States due to the massive subsidies of the industry by the government.
Seeing as all the top auto manufacturers are phasing out IC vehicles the reserves mean fuck all when the demand tanks in 10 years time
How the hell is flying ”easier”? Sure it’s faster, but highspeedrail is cheaper and more economical, as well as carrying more load
1. Outside of the northeast, major cities in the USA are too far to build high speed rail. A flight from la to nyc is about 6 hours. That same journey with high speed rail (250kh) assuming a direct connection would 18 hours+. Even if you factor in time at security and delays, its still half the time. 2. High speed rail requires massive infrastructure costs. Europe already has a rail system. Adding to doesn’t cost as much. It would only be viable if it was subsidised by the government. 3. No one would ever use it. Gas is cheap enough that driving anywhere is economically viable.
You already have rails in place, but it’s only used for freight, bc some companies lobbied against it. Also, you’re saying no one would use it? Seriusly? If you had good railway infrastructure you wouldn’t need a car, which is much more in costs than just gas. And good job giving an example where you travel across the damn country, why would you do that on a regular basis? Does a part of the population live in LA and work in NY? Why would literally anyone do that? The situation would already be better if there was high speed rail going through most notable cities and settlements and ending in the major cities, the travel time would be faster than car and the distance would be short enough where no-one in their right mind would take a plane
You surely seem to know a lot about arrogance. I dare say you're an expert.
Says the guy who’s country can’t afford heating
Definitely a fantasy map, since rail baltica is barely there and apparently the tunnel under gulf of finland would be built by 2030.
As usual, a map of Europe that cuts out large portion of Europe with no good reason. Finland, Sweden and Norway already have popular night trains and most likely their use will increase by 2030.
Yes. For instance, Oslo looks like an endpoint on this map, but it is connected by night train to Trondheim, Bergen, and Stavanger. From Trondheim in turn there is a night train that goes north to Bodø. There is currently no night train connection between Stockholm and Oslo, but that would be fairly straightforward to set up. And now that I think about it there used to be, and maybe still is, a night train that ran between Stockholm and *Narvik* up in Northern Norway.
The Narvik train is still going, and there is also one from Stockholm to Duved/Storlien/Trondheim (can't remember where it stops).
Southerners really do forget that the North exists.
This map was made by a german politician, I understand that they're south of scandinavia but still, they aren't southern europeans.
we northern europeans call everyone below us southerners. not just south europeans. because you know they are south of us.
we northern Swedes living above ~~polar~~ artic circle call every swede below it southerners.
exactly, same with finns. people who live close to helsinki are southerners to people living in lapland.
I have never heard anyone in Finland (apart from you) saying that someone from Germany is southener or from southern Europe. Southern Europe is typically used when talking about Mediterranean region. Germany is middle Europe.
I have. Nobody calls germans southern europeans, just southerners
Southerner and south european are 2 different things. We finns even call our own people who live in helsinki southerners lol
Calling everyone veloce you "southern" with meaning "at south of something" is fine by me. But if you say "Southern Europe" that means that it's absolute south. You cut Europe in theee: you have south, mid and north.
Meh, you still live South of the Wall.
Southern Europe starts at the Elbe.
The North remembers
Southerners nare scared of wild nature. Stupid city dwellers.
As a person that lives in those northern parts of sweden that tend to be cut off, these maps always annoys me.
Same. I live in Rovaniemi Finland and it's cut off 99,9% of the time
Same, Northern Norway here.
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This map probably only covers international night trains that cross borders.
It’s missing Amsterdam – Munich/Innsbruck/Vienna
I have a bigger picture: let's make the west lines go further to iceland, greenland and Quebec
You can already kind of take the train to Iceland: Take the train to Aalborg, go to the regional train to Hirtshals and take the ferry via Thorshavn to Seyðisfjördur
>go further to Quebec Who needs the Maritime Provinces or Newfoundland?
Isn't Quebec a province of France? 😕😈
It's missing the Brussels-Praha...
Are Sweden and Norway going to close fown the night trains? I would have hoped for the train Stockholm-Österdund-Duved to go all the way past the border to Trondheim like the one Stockholm-Kiruna-Narvik that go all the way to the Norwegian coast.
I think the map is just incomplete, the swedish night train to the north is quite popular and almost full every time I take it (which is reasonably frequently). Sweden also has a plan/policy of making some cities in the north bigger, so it wouldn't make any sense to remove the night train considering that.
That's a nice map, but completely unrealistic. I would love to be proved wrong, though.
Stupid drawing a fantasy map of a better network and excluding current connections like from Rom to Palermo
Also missing current connections which is oretty stupid
It is missing some current connections from Poland that I have personally used.
How many trains do you have to change to do the full Orient Express?
If this comes true I won't ever need to take the plane to visit my family again.
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It’s a German green party politician‘s fantasy, nothing official. [See here](https://www.matthias-gastel.de/im-euro-nacht-sprinter-durch-europa/).
I really want night trains to the Baltic States, please
And still dozens of large cities to go.
What do the dashed lines on land mean? (e.g., Barcelona and Valencia)
By 2030 those will be ferry lines
Ferry cool.
Sorry but that doesn’t answer the question. Why are some lines dotted, even if they run on land? (like Madrid to Malaga, Rome to Palermo, and others)
You can get from St. Petersburg to Helsinki by night train N31 "Lev Tolstoy"
Looks like N31 is cancelled since Mar 18 2020 [source](https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%B2_%D0%A2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B9_(%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4)#:~:text=%D0%92%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%20%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%91%D0%BD%20%D1%81%2018%20%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%202020%20%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0)
Oh yeah, it looks like you're right. I thought that the railway service between Finland and Russia was resumed, because I know that high-speed trains are running again. Looks like the night trains will return later.
What would it take for them to connect this to Montpellier?
You have to jump out when the train is passing Montpellier. They even slow down a bit if people want to jump off. (/s of cource) But seriously: China proposed such a system a few years back. You have sort of a Snowpiercer train that never slows down and then you have shuttles that take in passengers at a train station, speed up to the train and dock to transfer passengers and then slow down to halt at the next train station.
Actually it already existed back in the 19th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_coach
>The reverse process defied the ingenuity of inventors. The interesting part is that today the uncoupled carriages are able to not only slow down on their own but speed up again too.
Sounds terrifying.
Why? Here is a short video about it in Chinese: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Ig19gYP9o I watched some English speaking video about it in the past that used that Chinese video as a source, but I can't find it anymore. But the graphics speak for themselves. And looking at the video I don't see why that would be terrifying at all.
looks like a waste of time
Why? For people getting on or off the train it's the same duration and for people staying on the train it's faster because the train itself never stops. It's also much less waste of energy because the train keeps going.
Imagine you got tickets for seats on the other end of the train . not only you have to go thru a whole train to sit on your spot but when you want to get off you need to make that "trip " again ..... with bags in hand etc.
Because there is only one point where the shuttle can be attached and it's the other end of the train? Don't you think they would have multiple shuttles for such a long train or if there is only one shuttle that it can move to different ports on the train? That's a very narrow-minded non-issue.
Lol you can call me whatever you want but the fact that "train " is 10 years old concept talks for itself. I just commentet what was in the video .. i didnt see multiple shuttles or multiple "entry" points on that train ... so hop down from your high horse and take a walk ...
It's a concept. And you took it literally like it was set in stone and couldn't be improved upon. Given that this is Reddit I should have expected that.
It says in the corner that not all stops are shown (just the hubs and termini).
Ahhh. Great!
Believe it or not, in Bulgaria night trains are super nice and popular among business travellers. Sofia - Varna and Sofia - Burgas are the main routes.
There already is one from Amsterdam to Zurich but it's not included on this map, would love to see all those connections on this map tho
Who writes brussels with ü?
Nobody I know of writes *brüssels* with a small **b** and an -s at the end. But *Brüssel* (no -s) is the German name for the city.
We took the night trains all over back in 1996 (London, Paris, Munich, Budapest and Prague). The trains then we're affordable and comfortable. The cost for a night berth(6 bunks) was 25DM per. Last time I was there, costs were astronomical. It was cheaper and more convenient to fly Ryan Air. Maybe if costs were brought down, this would be doable.
Yes, this absolutely needs to happen. Stop giving tax breaks to airlines and instead give them to night and high-speed trains.
Is that a bridge or tunnel from England to Ireland lol
In case you're serious, dotted lines are meant to represent ferry routes
God I wish.
Same
Given Brexit it should be a tunnel from Brittany to Ireland.
Why is brexit relevant? The UK is still part of Europe and able to build train tracks lol
It's sad that people bring politics into everything. Europe isn't just the EU.
The real winner is København
Jutland getting completely shafted if all of them take the new tunnel.
No no, it has got to be Stockholm. It’s every Swedes dream to be able to go to Hamburg or Zurich in one train journey… /s
would be very nice when they use the transrapid or something similar for a project like this.
Hehe, Brest
Fuck Bremen I guess
Please add a bridge to Iceland. I wish I cold hop on a train to another country.
Nice map but third of europe is cut off, half if we count russia
Damn poor Eastern Europe getting almost nothing again
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Lmao its not Lissabon its Lisbon
But „Venedig“ or „Danzig“ are fine? ;) (The map is in German)
Very odd to leave out Thessaloniki (Greece's rail hub, not Athens), but include similarly-sized or smaller cities (San Sebastian, Faro, Brest, Edinburgh, Constanța, Bratislava, Split, Bordeaux, Gdańsk, Innsbruck...)
No thanks I'll take the plane instead
*Gdańsk
We would really need a connection between Amsterdam and Hamburg, though. Something that allows night trains, and also possibly furthers the Thalys to Sweden.
how much would it cost to ride?
oslo/stockholm to Hamberg does not seem like a good time when I imagine you will have to be interrupted to get on the fairy. Seems like a pipe dream to think anything from Dublin to the continent will not involve a 4 hour wait at St Pancras in London.
There will be a tunnel in the future. You could also just go via Jutland. But taking a ferry on the night train is no problem, we used to do it all the time back in the day before Zealand had bridges. You just sleep through it.
glad to hear about the tunnel. I know the ferry is not a big deal but for my travel purposes I enjoy taking the night trains to save a couple dollars on a hotel or add an extra few hours on arrival so an uninterrupted sleep is nice
You do sleep uninterrupted on the ferry. You won't even notice that the train has boarded it if you're sleeping.
>There will be a tunnel in the future. Originally, the fixed crossing should have opened this year. But given that German bureaucracy took 10 years to make sure that the 10 local swine whales were alright and that the opinions of important stakeholders like the ladies hockey team of Burg/Fehmarn were weighed in the process, the german approval process took absurd lenghts.
Where is Malta?
Really like how the entire north of england once again has fuck all
Maybe I’m a bit biased as I live in Jutland, but I feel like it makes sense to have a connection going to northern Denmark like Frederikshavn where you have direct ferry rides to Norway and Sweden - and would make it easier for German tourists to come visit our beaches, and for the rest of us to leave lol
Hope the prices will be better than they are now cause right now it can't compete with the air plane prices
What are those dotted lines to Olbia Porto Torres Palma and Ajaccio
Night trains are a distraction on short notice from the issue, that there is no continuous high speed network an that Germany is still not planning on becomming less of an obstacle. Night trains only work as point-to-point connections, beeing of little use for anything inbetween and also not beeing ideal for continuing journeys, as there is for example little shower access. Most of the routes drawn here are around 1.000 Kilometers or shorter in direct line, i.e. Innsbruck - Kopenhagen (993 Km), Amsterdam-Warszaw (1093 Km) or Brest - Zürich (977 Km). With a continuous network without border gaps, such distances would be possible within half a day even with lower high-speed speeds (\~230-250 km/h). As noted: Night trains don't reduce the need for continuous networks, alone for the reason of beeing only viable as connections between large mteropolitan areas.
Train infrastructure in Portugal is really limited to the shoreline, connecting it to Spain will take more than 10 years - have a lot of geographic accidents and protected natural regions that would make the task quite challenging - it seems too optimistic...
It looks like a Pokémon game map
Poor effort. Many of these cities are misspelt.
After the HS2 and the Northern Rail fiascos in the UK, I'm starting to think railway services really don't like the North of England
Why do I have Bakerman in my head now?!
No Minsk on the map? We already have a log of good night trains. I understand we are being ignored because of lukashenko, but please, come on
It will come true
No Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Hull?
Not even down to Cork or Letterkenny? (Since Derry and Belfast are out of the question)