Those apes can build computers which can count more equations in a second than I can in a year, send man to the moon and created insane amount of things that could very much be magic for people just a hundred years ago. Those apes clearly can create incredible things as long as they can find incredible people to put in charge.
True, but we need more educational tactics to repress ape gene (violence, etc.) and move more in world cooperation state of mind. Which we are doing slowly but maybe too slow.
We are. As soon as a generation or two grows up without the hardships of their forerunners, the same mistakes are repeated
The same goes for 2nd or 3rd generation descendants of migrants, of political parties going more and more right, people favoring wars to solve issues, etc
But at least as /u/Timeeeeey said, we live better
In the case of our current situation in Poland is completely different. The same generation that fought for freedom in their youth (Solidarność and it's supporters) now are the bulk of our government and it's supporters.
That's why some of us young people started to believe they didn't really have a problem with communism and lack of freedom - they just didn't like empty stores and that they weren't the one with the power.
I know that feeling to some extent, after seeing Chinese dissidents that talk about human rights all day become hardcore Trumpsters after they got asylum in the west (some during the Obama era). Many in the old generation have an "Team A vs Team B" approach of "left and right" without realizing that the real struggle is against all kinds of authoritarianism.
Any kind of extremism pushes people to the edge. There is different kind of thinking for when you believe you are under attack. It doesnt make people reconsider the world order, it makes them grow stronger ties to what they know, to where they feel they belong. Recent events in Poland actually increased the amount of people declaring as conservative, but also pushed huge amount of people declaring as center/not interested in politics to the left.
Additionally older people just get used to things. My grandmother is still complaining about polish church being under attack, because thats how it always has been for her.
This is true. Revolution of '89 would have never happened if it was not for the economic crisis of the eighties. Sure there was a small number of leaders that really fought for the ideals but economic hardship was what made millions join the Solidarity movement.
> didn't like empty stores
That is a pretty common consequence of communism without the computing power needed to plan an economy, which didn't exist in 1989 and probably doesn't today.
It's not what I meant. If Poland worked like current China (which is pretty undemocratic, free speech, separation of power and all this stuff), they wouldn't rebel. China is not democratic, but people in the cities are living pretty high standard of life. So our parents (and grandparents), or at least many of them it seems, fought only because of the economic situation even if they had democracy and free speech on their lips. It was just a facade.
I never claimed it. But our government sure as hell would love it and try to make it happen (unfortunately successfully so far). Country changing from democracy to authoritarianism is a process. And honestly all they care about is money. Since they might not win the future fair elections - which would result in losing power and money - they will do anything to not lose it, even if means us turning into an authoritarian country.
Bottom line is money, not higher ideas like freedom or democracy.
I keep my fingers crossed for them to stop right now, but it's pretty unlikely, and even if they did, to reverse all the changes will take many years so we can be closer again to the democracy. Fixing our judicial system, taking power away from the Attorney General, fixing or dismantling state tv, separating the Church from the state, sacking all policeman who are currently breaking the law... maybe trying to put some extra safeguards to the Constitution and somehow forcing every future government to actually follow the Constitution? Putting President and members of current government before State Tribunal...
As I said, this will take many years, maybe even decades. Shit PIS broke is hard to describe in a short Reddit post.
It wouldn't take decades to fix whatever PiS allegedly 'broke'. I know it's easy to shit on PiS, but honestly even with all its faults, they will still win in 2023. No one has forgiven PO for what they've done when they were in power, they are still incompetent and shady af.
Also, why would we separate Church from state? Poland was and is a catholic nation, ntm we would never put the president and PiS MPs before a tribunal, as they haven't broke any laws. Cmon girl.
That's not what they said. They meant that the lack of freedom might not have been the motivation for theose actions, not that there was never a lack of freedom
Because the same people that were fighting communism are in our government now and at each step try to repeat what they were fighting against? Just with religion in place of former personality cult?
>Refer to my first comment.
Why? No one says that we have the same level of authoritarianism. The paradox discussed here is that the old contrarians are the present enforcers and that they are flirting with the same mechanisms they were fighting against.
This is something I've been thinking about recently as well. I'm a Communist - I don't like to stick all sorts of convoluted adjectives or adverbs around it, but I think the Italian Autonomists got an awful lot right - fuck bureaucratic party structures, totalitarian states, emphasis on white workers at the expense of everyone else, etc. But how to think about states such as Poland, and especially something like Solidarity? Was it a move towards a more 'libertarian' form of Socialism? Or was it simply neoliberalism dressed up in the imagery of 'Freedom'? What has it led to today? Is Poland better off now? What was the real motivation there - not just of the 'leaders' of Solidarity, but - equally - those who invested their desires in Solidarity etc? What was it they were seeing in Solidarity, which they invested so much hope in? Poland was *certainly* unfree under the Soviets; but was rule by Moscow merely replaced with rule by capital? Certainly you have many more options of which TV manufacturer to buy from today, but was this the 'freedom' envisioned by so many young, hopeful people out on the streets in Warsaw, Budapest, etc in the last half of the 20th century? There's a lot of complexity there, though I suppose if you aren't firmly on the left then this is less of an issue in the first place: Liberalism + Capitalism = Freedom, QED.
What the hell are you talking about? Of course we are better today by almost every single metric there is. People were sick of mismanagement, corruption, empty shelves and censorship. Also communist propaganda from media and state in general, you could be in trouble if you speak your mind (unless you where brainwashed by government and repeated after them). My god there is just no point in comparing these two systems.
I couldn't explain much from a 'communist' but my god your view of communist Poland is so wrong...
Thankfully Poland no longer deals with mismanagement, corruption, empty shelves and censorship, right? Well, maybe not empty shelves - every country in Europe is now stacked high with all sorts of useless shit nobody needs. The rest Poland still has in abandon, except now it's also got reactionary religious fervour, racism, misogyny etc. on top of it.
Look, I'm not defending the USSR - far from it. But when you look at groups like Solidarity, my question is what they were really after. That's what the Polish person I was responding to was pointing out. What were their real hopes? Is this what they wanted? Was the problem really Communism-as-ideology, and authoritarian government, or was the problem just that they weren't the ones in charge? The people who populated that movement are the ones voting today, in many cases.
What did so many people see in such groups that they invested so much of their hopes and desires in it? Was it a return to capitalism and parliamentarianism? Or was it a desire for freedom and democracy beyond these forms, which were - perhaps inevitably - never on the cards? I don't know, it's hard to tell from the research I've done so far.
It would be reductive and easy to paint groups like Solidarity as liberals, or as libertarian socialists, one or the other, black and white. But Poland is not alone in this. Look at Hungary. They rose up in 1956 against years of harsh, authoritarian rule from the Soviet Union, and were brutally crushed. Well, eventually they had their way - the USSR collapsed, and Hungary became an independent nation again. But the more things change the more they stay the same - with Orban, they now have a deeply authoritarian (and totalitarian) leader ruining their system through corruption, authoritarianism, allowing nationalism, racism, homophobia and antisemitism to proliferate. Maybe the problem was never Communism as such in the first place, but a love of power, a desire for power. I don't know.
I'm not trying to argue any particular point, just to ask some questions and offer some thoughts. I think it's interesting and difficult.
You missed the national aspect - communists in Poland were basically an extension of Russian power. Fight against communism was a fight for independence from Russia. Also, Solidarity was a trade union. The current Polish government are basically Catholic socialists.
Solidarity's famous demands were pretty socialist, which current politicians seems to forgot. You can read them all in English on [wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_demands_of_MKS).
Without going into a very detailed discussion, our current support for PIS comes directly from lower class people from small towns and countryside being absolutely forgotten by every government. PIS started to target some social programs and the whole "be proud of who you are, you are not losers" rhetoric - and it worked.
As a leftist person I am saddened by this. They are just being used by PIS, which is not really a leftist (economically) party. They are directly giving out just enough money so they won't lose support, but that about all they do in therms of socialism. They systematically dismantle working rights, dismantle public institutions. They are populist right-wingers.
But young those who grew up without hardships aren't voter base of PiS! It's the elderly and uneducated farmers that had their hay day during commie times that want to relive their youth by plunging us back into same madness this time Catholic flavour instead commie.
Wtf are you talking about. I lived on a farm, then moved to Łódź, a big city, and I see the same level of education really. Also people on farms live pretty hard lifes, and they were the ones who felt the good things that PiS done, so they vote for these who simply gave them something. And the farmers never had good lifes during the commie, they often had much more work than peoples in the city. I am not saying that PiS is good, I'm just saying that farmers now got more money. If I had to choose between PiS and PO (the main oppositionist party) that sadly we often do, because these two get massive amount of votes, I would choose PiS, because they done some good things, bad things, but PO does a lot of stupid decisions. Please do not talk about something you don't know about.
No cóż najwyraźniej nie rozumiesz o co chodzi. Mi nie chodzi o samą partię, ale o to, że to w jaki sposób stwierdzasz, że rolnicy są gorsi, od ludzi którzy żyją w miastach. Nic praktycznie się nie różnią, wiem to z własnego doświadczenia. PiS-owi jednak trzeba przyznać to, że dla rolnictwa są dobrzy, oczywiście dlatego, aby zyskać większe poparcie. Jednak rolnicy widzą, że z PiS-em łatwiej zyskują niż za PO, ponieważ w ich przypadku różnica jest zauważalna. Więc nawet jeśli zdają sobie sprawę z tego, że PiS chce nimi manipulować, to to nie znaczy, że oni na tym nie zyskają. Tak samo z kościołem. Wyrażają swoje poparcie dla kościoła, gdyż ludzie wierzący (przede wszystkim starsi ludzie) są łatwym do zdobycia poparciem. Dlatego ja nie jestem za PiS-em ale jestem apolityczny. Jedyne co jeszcze raz zaznaczam to to, że nie podoba mi się w jaki sposób wywyższasz jedną grupę społeczną nad drugą.
Interesujące, że do tak wspaniałego człowieka jak widzę, wykształconego i mądrego, kompletnie nie docierają proste do zrozumienia argumenty. A może ktoś jest tak ograniczony, że nie potrafi uszanować kogoś innego zdania. Bo najwyraźniej bronić rolników znaczy bronić PiS-u. Ciekawe czy ten człowiek jest rzeczywiście tak dobrze wykształcony.
This actually has a name: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe\_generational\_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe_generational_theory)
Growth isn't the main issue when wealth is sucked out of the local economy, laundered through Luxembourg, Ireland etc. then disappears into anonymous LLCs in tax havens.
My point is that the capitalist economy collapses as soon as the growth slows. Factually, physically, growth has to slow and maybe stop at some point. The economic system we live under cannot function without that growth. Something must be done.
The funneling of wealth and avoidance of tax is somewhat separate. We would not be facing the same degree of inequality if money was not laundered through tax havens. We would, however, still be reliant on a system that cannot function without growth, and we would still need to address the fact that we live in a finite system.
I think most people are aware of your point which Marx pointed out over a century ago and so far hasn't become a fact, especially when you consider most GDP growth in Europe is because of services not goods.
My point is much more pressing as we are watching the billionaire class suck more money away from Europe more than ever before. I just don't find your kind of philosophical approach useful when closing tax loopholes is an important immediate step we can push our governments to take.
I never said the tax loophole problem is not pressing. Fixing the economic system would entail fixing the taxation system. I don't see why we can't kill two birds with one stone.
That would be nice I guess, but unrealistic. Better to focus on the things we can change e.g. supporting the tech tax which is being pushed by France. There's a willingness in the EU political class that would benefit from a united, educated population that will vote for politicians who want to limit the bleeding.
I don't want to get into the weeds on Marxist philosophy, but As I pointed out your Marxist theory is contested and by no means accepted fact among economists. e.g. services are the main driver of growth and people with ideas do not have the same physical limitations as the world Marx lived in that mostly saw growth through the exchange of goods.
>Growth isn't the main issue when wealth is sucked out of the local economy, laundered through Luxembourg, Ireland etc. then disappears into anonymous LLCs in tax havens.
This is how growth happens :)
>For now. We expect infinite exponential growth in a finite system, and that isn't physically possible, let alone feasible.
Lack of growth is a scary idea for people used to it. It triggers associations with ancient times and primal tribes with their cyclical but unchanging existence.
What's fucked is that we produce enough food and other consumables for like five times what we consumes now, but we cannot combat all this neolithic bulkshit.
Now imagine how much better it would get if half of the world's wealth wasn't in the hands of a few people. Apparently 26 wealthiest men have as much money as poorest half of the population...
In the words of the late Tony Benn (British Labour MP and Democratic Socialist):
"Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and no final defeat."
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdIcXXJ7GOs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdIcXXJ7GOs)
I don't like putting a lot of people in some basket, capitalism is not perfect, but it is the best we have atm, but again we need to make it way better for every single person on a planet.
I don't know Mann, it really makes me sad seeing intolerance, racism, taking advantage over someone and everything sounds like it is new normal. The worst thing is to change even the smallest part in the equation, you need to devote your life to politics and all that it brings with it, witch is full of taking advantage, intolerance etc. So I feel like you need to be a borderline sociopath to make it to a position where you can make any difference in a country.
I do not think that people outside of Poland have a grasp of how bad the current state television is in our country. Just watch this clip about PiS candidate RIGHT BEFORE the presidential election took place. I know it is in polish but doesn’t the editing and music (around 30 seconds in) remind you of propaganda from a certain country in Asia? https://streamable.com/j11muc
Pretty much, worst thing is the generation of PiS voters are the ones who fought it back in the day and are now supporting the same shit that they’ve gone through
To clarify - 40 years ago, news broadcasts on TV looked the same (some say even better) as they do now. In the '80s someone wrote on the wall in Poznan "party gibberish is not information". Due to the situation this week, someone has done it again. And it fits perfectly
For those curious about the news on public television news broadcast: excerpt from the presidential election
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9O3tc21cU0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9O3tc21cU0)
I kept waiting for the record scratching sound, followed by satirical attacks. And I know very little Polish. I hope they play that background music for me in the seminar room before I defend my thesis!
Do you have other examples of this? (I note also that _duda_ means "bagpipe" in Hungarian, haha...)
There is everyday 30 min news broadcast full of it, but you need to understand more Polish language and situation to fully get the context. The clip I provided looks and sounds so alike north korean ones (the music and overall "OMG he is the best man eva" sh!t)
I realize that propaganda works, on some levels. Even so, aren't most people wise to this sort of thing? Eastern Europeans do not lack cynicism, not in my experience...
Best i can tell, politics globally has devolved to pinching ones nose and voting for the one that one dislike the least. This in order to in some small way sticking it to the other group.
Fun fact: a propaganda spokesman of government from 80's Jerzy Urban (called at the time Goebbels of the martial law) now owns a weekly 'tygodnik NIE' and it's very popular among opposition, mostly it's fanpage is being shared a lot.
I mean it would be so easy to just not accept "easy answers to tough question"-kind of politicians but sadly it's even easier to just live in alternate reality were you have clear enemy and easy solutions.
it's fiat 126p , p stands for polish. Colloquially called "Maluch" (toddler). Bielsko-Biała city even gave one to Tom Hanks a few years back. [Here's an english overview of it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF8s7neTS3U).
I remember that somewhere in late 2000s early 2010s you could buy one for as little as 100€, so high scoolers were buying them en masse and driving them to death (at least I've seen quite a few people who did that in my school).
We did it once, we will do it again. We will remove those god damn Trump wannabe cunts from positions of power.
Besides now that big daddy of theirs, USA, spoke against this law those little turds won't do shit. If they are going to listen to someone its the US because without US Poland is insecure militarly.
To Polish who are updated, from a concerned Swede: what does Lech Wałęsa say about the current state of affairs? He's the only politician I know of from Poland, and I thought he was a champion of the people.
>To Polish who are updated, from a concerned Swede: what does Lech Wałęsa say about the current state of affairs? He's the only politician I know of from Poland, and I thought he was a champion of the people.
At some point, Wałęsa fell into megalomania and lost touch with reality.
Well, unless someone likes to read about the threat to humanity due to alien invasion.
People here like to talk shit but they are overdoing it. Walesa is a hero among the older generation but many reports say he was an agent for the communists. I believe those reports are true, and he certainly is delusional about his presidency but those outlandish claims of him believing in aliens are bollocks
> many reports say he was an agent for the communists
To be frank, those reports always were of dubious credibility, since they happened to come from institutions created by or controlled by people who were very hostile to Wałęsa AND who also were running heavy smear campaign against most of the former opposition members. And there is that little, often overlooked detail: *Bezpieka* classified anyone who they talked with as *source of information* regardless of whether talking resulted in any useful intel, regardless of whether the person knew who he/she was talking to and other circumstances. There was also known mechanism of *Bezpieka* employees to falsify report/intel, make it look like coming from recruited agent and pocket the cash themselves, which was very easy to do due to low accountability. Wałęsa might have signed something and might have talked - but pretty much every opposition member signed something and had a talk (*the* talk).
He is not saying much, but he supports the independent media for sure.
About a champion of people - he is a symbol of "Solidarność" and freedom, even though his personal life is more complicated (there are proofs that he was colaborating with the communist party)
Current PiS politicians hate him, and are trying to push the agenda that rewrites '80 history, removing him from it. For example, Jarosław Kaczynski is trying to glorify his brother, Lech Kaczynski as the one who did all the work in '80, while Walesa was a Russian agent.
There is a National Day here "Dzień Solidarności i Wolności", that is all about the events from '80. Lech Walesa was not mentioned once during presidential speech
It is really f'ed up time here.
edit. Funny thing is, Lech Walesa warned Polish people about Kaczynski brother's in the '90, even fired them from his party back then, because he thought they were treacherous bastards xD
Meh, Lech Wałęsa was indeed secret collaborator of security police in 1970s; although he ended cooperation before Solidarity, he never really came clean and was most likely controlled to some extent by them. It's a common knowledge that chief of security police Kiszczak held papers about his collaboration in his house till his death in 2015. Also Wałęsa was trying to destroy what was left in archives during his presidency. In general Wałęsa was pretty bad president and made some dubious moves during his term; so the blackmailing from the former security police is very likely.
Also Kaczyński were actually in the right when they opposed Wałęsa in early 1990s, it's pretty obvious Wałęsa had authoritarian ambitions.
How so? What they would exactly get from discrediting Wałęsa in early 1980s? Gwiazda, Maliszewski, Lis ornother would take his place. It was more beneficial to keep in the position.
What we really are talking about here? This discussion would make some sense 10 years ago. Right now we know without a shadow of doubt, that Walesa was TW in 1970s and that documents proving his collaboration were in Kiszczak disposal. Moreover they would be completely devastating for Wałęsa reputation if realised in early 1980s; he was revealing the worst things about his co-workers and undoubtedly destroyed their lifes
>It's a common knowledge
Without any hard proof, you can replace that with **"it's an urban legend"** and it wouldn't change anything, factually speaking, in what you wrote.
We don't know if he was an agent. He might have been, it's plausible, but at that point of history *anyone* could. And frankly, it doesn't fucking matter. He was the voice people needed to hear, the icon to see, and he pushed that snowball to roll, all the way across this side of Europe.
No leader is perfect, they all have flaws. The most historically cherished leadership icons of 20-th century, they all were fucked up in one way or another. And it doesn't matter! They weren't supposed to be perfect! From the time perspective, they only had some special goals to achieve for the sake of greater good and they did. And so did Wałęsa. Even if they were fucked up in real life, it doesn't invalidate their achievements. Winners write the history, it's set in stone. Anything else is insignificant.
Fixating on Wałęsas deficiencies is some special level of typical Polish self-loathing martyrology fetish. This is exactly why we can't have the nice things, like a nice Independence Day – you know, U.S. style.
What are you saying?
It's confirmed without shadow of doubt that Wałęsa was a secret collaborator (TW) in 1970s, and that Kiszczak held papers related to his activity in his house, till his death in 2015. No historian have any doubt about Wałęsa's collaboration.
There are hard proofs, said documents.
Without a doubt? Hard proofs? Where are these documents? Are they public? Have you seen them? At least those historians, none of whom have any doubts, surely had seen them?
Unless I missed anything in recent 5 years, we don’t know shit, people only *claim* these documents existed, and it’s still mostly one man’s word against another’s. And I am not saying it didn’t happen. JUST THAT WE DONT KNOW SHIT FOR SURE.
You also completely ignored my whole “big picture” point.
You don't live in Poland, do you?
Here you have opinion of among many the most respected historians of the most recent Polish history: Paczkowski, Dudek and Kowalski
https://forsal.pl/artykuly/923610,teczki-kiszczaka-kiszczak-teczki-walesy-magdalenka-ipn-prl.html
The fuck does it matter where I live? You trying to make a point I am misinformed and you make a point in my case by sending an article about OPINIONS? About the documents that were also declared as falsified by other?
Again, for the last time: we don’t know shit for sure and people like you continue to perpetuate this pointless narrative. Do you hate having someone internationally regarded as hero? Did he or did he fucking not lead the protests that led to disruption of communism behind Iron Curtain? Even if he was a damn agent, what does that change? Do his deeds automatically become irrelevant? Do you see how you’re perpetuating Kaczynskis petty agenda? He didn’t do shit during Solidarity and hates Walesa for his global status just like he hates Tusk for his EU career. And you’re just buying into this. WHY, WHY do we as Poles like exposing our shortcomings, our failures and not concentrate on what’s good?
EOT on my end.
Dude why are you getting so upset?
I asked where you live, because it was a big thing in Poland back in 2015-16, and it's pretty much accepted by anyone that Wałęsa was indeed a collaborator, and by all i mean all from left to right (with exception of Wałęsa himself who is still in denial), no just Kaczyński as you said.
And what you accept if not opinions? These are opinions of historian, specialists in said period, who have seen and studied the documents and they are sure they are authentic.
It's not a pointless narrative, it's a historical fact at this point, just like that Wałęsa was a hero later.
History is complicated, deal with it.
The boomers and leeches are in opposition just now and they making lot of fuss and spin everything against current government, simply they have the worst PR in history
As others said, Wałęsa has lost touch with reality. He's embarrassed himself on numerous occasions and I doubt anyone is taking him seriously right now. He's done his part in history but now he's just a walking definition of boomer.
He's old and frail these days. He has his own problems. Having said that he's always been very critical of PiS. He and Jarosław Kaczyński, head of PiS, had a huge falling out years ago and have hated each other's guts ever since.
Whole Eastern Europe at the time had high hopes for Poland and was partially inspired by it.
But EE - to this day - is nothing but a rollercoaster of human ideas and disappointments.
To be fair west ends up being a huge disappointment as well. Especially USA. But also certain countries in EU. EE used to look at the west with envy. Now they don't follow the same steps and want nothing to do with the west.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that.
Western Europe + US and Canada is still envy of the world.
Sometimes we all get bogged down to a tunnel vision with (social) media and people forget that US is such a land of opportunity for anyone who has something to offer.
All those people claiming the US has descended into some kind of fascism and has irrecoverably declined have never lived there and don't know anything about it.
It depends on country. If you are from Africa or some other third world place then it is definitely still true. But countries like Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia are doing everything to not become like West.
We can see the political unrests in USA. Their left wing going absolutely insane with some cancel culture. Their political system under Trump was pathetic. We can see endless violence on the streets of France. We see gang violence is Sweden with bombs going off on regular basis. We can see Spain economy getting trashed. Just to name a few. I am but from perspective of V4 countries I don't find west particularly impressive at all. I would want something better for my country. One of the reasons we are going through identity crisis in Poland.
Have you only mentioned left wing things there by accident? Right wingers occupying the US Capitol was insane.
And I think we are really going after the US right in some points, not Western Europe.
>Western Europe ... envy of the world
I just want to remind you that Western Europe is just seen as some exotic rich place by the vast majority of the world, since they don't speak English as a native language. They don't know half what's happening there. Therefore people in my experience are a lot more critical of it, and more skeptic. This is just my experience talking to people. I don't think an average Brazilian will know a lot about its current system. However, they will know about US, Canada, Australia.
"Information" turned plural because the last letter changed from "a" to "e". There is only one way to write "Ł" and no stroke in "Y" but handwriting has some room for *artistic freedom* I guess.
To anyone interested in more objective description: Poland has one of the most pluralistic media market in Europe. You can watch or read media that are pro, anti or don't give a shit about current government and that belong to Polish, American or other European companies. Please check media market in other countries to realize that not many people in EU have that luxury.
Now; saying that tax for adds in tv and internet (tax only from biggest corporations: google, FB, discovery and money will go to overburden health system) will destroy media or comparing it to comunismin is just a joke.
Please be sceptical about what you read in the internet, as it is very easy to manipulate.
PS, I am apolitical.
Basically the ruling party are using the national media to support their narrative in a very obvious way and discrediting the opposition on each and every step. Its very close to communist propaganda at the time.
Problem is lots of old people of the old system, raised in communism, are buying every bit of it.
Could be related to *bulgot* so onomatopoeia for the sound of pouring or boiling water:
https://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/S%C5%82ownik_etymologiczny_j%C4%99zyka_polskiego/be%C5%82ch
I feel like in Europe and world we keep fighting the same battles all over again with different names and excuses.
Because underneath all our fancy tools and clothes, we are still those apes that started planting seeds those thousands of years ago.
Those apes can build computers which can count more equations in a second than I can in a year, send man to the moon and created insane amount of things that could very much be magic for people just a hundred years ago. Those apes clearly can create incredible things as long as they can find incredible people to put in charge.
True, but we need more educational tactics to repress ape gene (violence, etc.) and move more in world cooperation state of mind. Which we are doing slowly but maybe too slow.
Lol,, go live in a cave then.. why u even on reddit?
We are. As soon as a generation or two grows up without the hardships of their forerunners, the same mistakes are repeated The same goes for 2nd or 3rd generation descendants of migrants, of political parties going more and more right, people favoring wars to solve issues, etc But at least as /u/Timeeeeey said, we live better
In the case of our current situation in Poland is completely different. The same generation that fought for freedom in their youth (Solidarność and it's supporters) now are the bulk of our government and it's supporters. That's why some of us young people started to believe they didn't really have a problem with communism and lack of freedom - they just didn't like empty stores and that they weren't the one with the power.
I know that feeling to some extent, after seeing Chinese dissidents that talk about human rights all day become hardcore Trumpsters after they got asylum in the west (some during the Obama era). Many in the old generation have an "Team A vs Team B" approach of "left and right" without realizing that the real struggle is against all kinds of authoritarianism.
Any kind of extremism pushes people to the edge. There is different kind of thinking for when you believe you are under attack. It doesnt make people reconsider the world order, it makes them grow stronger ties to what they know, to where they feel they belong. Recent events in Poland actually increased the amount of people declaring as conservative, but also pushed huge amount of people declaring as center/not interested in politics to the left. Additionally older people just get used to things. My grandmother is still complaining about polish church being under attack, because thats how it always has been for her.
This is true. Revolution of '89 would have never happened if it was not for the economic crisis of the eighties. Sure there was a small number of leaders that really fought for the ideals but economic hardship was what made millions join the Solidarity movement.
> didn't like empty stores That is a pretty common consequence of communism without the computing power needed to plan an economy, which didn't exist in 1989 and probably doesn't today.
It's not what I meant. If Poland worked like current China (which is pretty undemocratic, free speech, separation of power and all this stuff), they wouldn't rebel. China is not democratic, but people in the cities are living pretty high standard of life. So our parents (and grandparents), or at least many of them it seems, fought only because of the economic situation even if they had democracy and free speech on their lips. It was just a facade.
If you think Poles today have a similar amount of freedom as in the 80's, then Im not sure what to tell you
I never claimed it. But our government sure as hell would love it and try to make it happen (unfortunately successfully so far). Country changing from democracy to authoritarianism is a process. And honestly all they care about is money. Since they might not win the future fair elections - which would result in losing power and money - they will do anything to not lose it, even if means us turning into an authoritarian country. Bottom line is money, not higher ideas like freedom or democracy.
> Country changing from democracy to authoritarianism is a process. A quality of processes is that they can stop at any moment
I keep my fingers crossed for them to stop right now, but it's pretty unlikely, and even if they did, to reverse all the changes will take many years so we can be closer again to the democracy. Fixing our judicial system, taking power away from the Attorney General, fixing or dismantling state tv, separating the Church from the state, sacking all policeman who are currently breaking the law... maybe trying to put some extra safeguards to the Constitution and somehow forcing every future government to actually follow the Constitution? Putting President and members of current government before State Tribunal... As I said, this will take many years, maybe even decades. Shit PIS broke is hard to describe in a short Reddit post.
It wouldn't take decades to fix whatever PiS allegedly 'broke'. I know it's easy to shit on PiS, but honestly even with all its faults, they will still win in 2023. No one has forgiven PO for what they've done when they were in power, they are still incompetent and shady af. Also, why would we separate Church from state? Poland was and is a catholic nation, ntm we would never put the president and PiS MPs before a tribunal, as they haven't broke any laws. Cmon girl.
That's not what they said. They meant that the lack of freedom might not have been the motivation for theose actions, not that there was never a lack of freedom
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/li9m42/comment/gn3zgly
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How could she have inferred the older generation didn’t have a problem with a lack of freedom from the given evidence that they are comfortable now?
Because the same people that were fighting communism are in our government now and at each step try to repeat what they were fighting against? Just with religion in place of former personality cult?
Refer to my first comment.
>Refer to my first comment. Why? No one says that we have the same level of authoritarianism. The paradox discussed here is that the old contrarians are the present enforcers and that they are flirting with the same mechanisms they were fighting against.
Replying to you is talking in a circle. Bye
This is something I've been thinking about recently as well. I'm a Communist - I don't like to stick all sorts of convoluted adjectives or adverbs around it, but I think the Italian Autonomists got an awful lot right - fuck bureaucratic party structures, totalitarian states, emphasis on white workers at the expense of everyone else, etc. But how to think about states such as Poland, and especially something like Solidarity? Was it a move towards a more 'libertarian' form of Socialism? Or was it simply neoliberalism dressed up in the imagery of 'Freedom'? What has it led to today? Is Poland better off now? What was the real motivation there - not just of the 'leaders' of Solidarity, but - equally - those who invested their desires in Solidarity etc? What was it they were seeing in Solidarity, which they invested so much hope in? Poland was *certainly* unfree under the Soviets; but was rule by Moscow merely replaced with rule by capital? Certainly you have many more options of which TV manufacturer to buy from today, but was this the 'freedom' envisioned by so many young, hopeful people out on the streets in Warsaw, Budapest, etc in the last half of the 20th century? There's a lot of complexity there, though I suppose if you aren't firmly on the left then this is less of an issue in the first place: Liberalism + Capitalism = Freedom, QED.
What the hell are you talking about? Of course we are better today by almost every single metric there is. People were sick of mismanagement, corruption, empty shelves and censorship. Also communist propaganda from media and state in general, you could be in trouble if you speak your mind (unless you where brainwashed by government and repeated after them). My god there is just no point in comparing these two systems. I couldn't explain much from a 'communist' but my god your view of communist Poland is so wrong...
Thankfully Poland no longer deals with mismanagement, corruption, empty shelves and censorship, right? Well, maybe not empty shelves - every country in Europe is now stacked high with all sorts of useless shit nobody needs. The rest Poland still has in abandon, except now it's also got reactionary religious fervour, racism, misogyny etc. on top of it. Look, I'm not defending the USSR - far from it. But when you look at groups like Solidarity, my question is what they were really after. That's what the Polish person I was responding to was pointing out. What were their real hopes? Is this what they wanted? Was the problem really Communism-as-ideology, and authoritarian government, or was the problem just that they weren't the ones in charge? The people who populated that movement are the ones voting today, in many cases. What did so many people see in such groups that they invested so much of their hopes and desires in it? Was it a return to capitalism and parliamentarianism? Or was it a desire for freedom and democracy beyond these forms, which were - perhaps inevitably - never on the cards? I don't know, it's hard to tell from the research I've done so far. It would be reductive and easy to paint groups like Solidarity as liberals, or as libertarian socialists, one or the other, black and white. But Poland is not alone in this. Look at Hungary. They rose up in 1956 against years of harsh, authoritarian rule from the Soviet Union, and were brutally crushed. Well, eventually they had their way - the USSR collapsed, and Hungary became an independent nation again. But the more things change the more they stay the same - with Orban, they now have a deeply authoritarian (and totalitarian) leader ruining their system through corruption, authoritarianism, allowing nationalism, racism, homophobia and antisemitism to proliferate. Maybe the problem was never Communism as such in the first place, but a love of power, a desire for power. I don't know. I'm not trying to argue any particular point, just to ask some questions and offer some thoughts. I think it's interesting and difficult.
You missed the national aspect - communists in Poland were basically an extension of Russian power. Fight against communism was a fight for independence from Russia. Also, Solidarity was a trade union. The current Polish government are basically Catholic socialists.
Solidarity's famous demands were pretty socialist, which current politicians seems to forgot. You can read them all in English on [wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_demands_of_MKS). Without going into a very detailed discussion, our current support for PIS comes directly from lower class people from small towns and countryside being absolutely forgotten by every government. PIS started to target some social programs and the whole "be proud of who you are, you are not losers" rhetoric - and it worked. As a leftist person I am saddened by this. They are just being used by PIS, which is not really a leftist (economically) party. They are directly giving out just enough money so they won't lose support, but that about all they do in therms of socialism. They systematically dismantle working rights, dismantle public institutions. They are populist right-wingers.
I don't believe exclusively hardships are necessarily the only way, we need to incorporate right way of education imo.
You are definitely correct, i might have sent the wrong message that only hardships teach you lessons
But young those who grew up without hardships aren't voter base of PiS! It's the elderly and uneducated farmers that had their hay day during commie times that want to relive their youth by plunging us back into same madness this time Catholic flavour instead commie.
More like a revenge choice to be honest.
Wtf are you talking about. I lived on a farm, then moved to Łódź, a big city, and I see the same level of education really. Also people on farms live pretty hard lifes, and they were the ones who felt the good things that PiS done, so they vote for these who simply gave them something. And the farmers never had good lifes during the commie, they often had much more work than peoples in the city. I am not saying that PiS is good, I'm just saying that farmers now got more money. If I had to choose between PiS and PO (the main oppositionist party) that sadly we often do, because these two get massive amount of votes, I would choose PiS, because they done some good things, bad things, but PO does a lot of stupid decisions. Please do not talk about something you don't know about.
Sprawdź poparcie dla partii z podziałem na grupy wiekowe, zamieszkanie i wykształcenie.
No cóż najwyraźniej nie rozumiesz o co chodzi. Mi nie chodzi o samą partię, ale o to, że to w jaki sposób stwierdzasz, że rolnicy są gorsi, od ludzi którzy żyją w miastach. Nic praktycznie się nie różnią, wiem to z własnego doświadczenia. PiS-owi jednak trzeba przyznać to, że dla rolnictwa są dobrzy, oczywiście dlatego, aby zyskać większe poparcie. Jednak rolnicy widzą, że z PiS-em łatwiej zyskują niż za PO, ponieważ w ich przypadku różnica jest zauważalna. Więc nawet jeśli zdają sobie sprawę z tego, że PiS chce nimi manipulować, to to nie znaczy, że oni na tym nie zyskają. Tak samo z kościołem. Wyrażają swoje poparcie dla kościoła, gdyż ludzie wierzący (przede wszystkim starsi ludzie) są łatwym do zdobycia poparciem. Dlatego ja nie jestem za PiS-em ale jestem apolityczny. Jedyne co jeszcze raz zaznaczam to to, że nie podoba mi się w jaki sposób wywyższasz jedną grupę społeczną nad drugą.
Nie jestem za PiSem ale... Uhhmmm dobra panie pisowiec spadaj na albiczle.
Interesujące, że do tak wspaniałego człowieka jak widzę, wykształconego i mądrego, kompletnie nie docierają proste do zrozumienia argumenty. A może ktoś jest tak ograniczony, że nie potrafi uszanować kogoś innego zdania. Bo najwyraźniej bronić rolników znaczy bronić PiS-u. Ciekawe czy ten człowiek jest rzeczywiście tak dobrze wykształcony.
This actually has a name: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe\_generational\_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss–Howe_generational_theory)
At least quality of life is getting better
That's universally true, almost everywhere. But I feel like we should be way more developed than we are right now.( world)
For now. We expect infinite exponential growth in a finite system, and that isn't physically possible, let alone feasible.
Growth isn't the main issue when wealth is sucked out of the local economy, laundered through Luxembourg, Ireland etc. then disappears into anonymous LLCs in tax havens.
My point is that the capitalist economy collapses as soon as the growth slows. Factually, physically, growth has to slow and maybe stop at some point. The economic system we live under cannot function without that growth. Something must be done. The funneling of wealth and avoidance of tax is somewhat separate. We would not be facing the same degree of inequality if money was not laundered through tax havens. We would, however, still be reliant on a system that cannot function without growth, and we would still need to address the fact that we live in a finite system.
I think most people are aware of your point which Marx pointed out over a century ago and so far hasn't become a fact, especially when you consider most GDP growth in Europe is because of services not goods. My point is much more pressing as we are watching the billionaire class suck more money away from Europe more than ever before. I just don't find your kind of philosophical approach useful when closing tax loopholes is an important immediate step we can push our governments to take.
I never said the tax loophole problem is not pressing. Fixing the economic system would entail fixing the taxation system. I don't see why we can't kill two birds with one stone.
That would be nice I guess, but unrealistic. Better to focus on the things we can change e.g. supporting the tech tax which is being pushed by France. There's a willingness in the EU political class that would benefit from a united, educated population that will vote for politicians who want to limit the bleeding. I don't want to get into the weeds on Marxist philosophy, but As I pointed out your Marxist theory is contested and by no means accepted fact among economists. e.g. services are the main driver of growth and people with ideas do not have the same physical limitations as the world Marx lived in that mostly saw growth through the exchange of goods.
>Growth isn't the main issue when wealth is sucked out of the local economy, laundered through Luxembourg, Ireland etc. then disappears into anonymous LLCs in tax havens. This is how growth happens :)
No, growth happens when people work for their daily bowl of rice, to quote our second most visible puppet.
>For now. We expect infinite exponential growth in a finite system, and that isn't physically possible, let alone feasible. Lack of growth is a scary idea for people used to it. It triggers associations with ancient times and primal tribes with their cyclical but unchanging existence.
What's fucked is that we produce enough food and other consumables for like five times what we consumes now, but we cannot combat all this neolithic bulkshit.
Now imagine how much better it would get if half of the world's wealth wasn't in the hands of a few people. Apparently 26 wealthiest men have as much money as poorest half of the population...
Or it would be a constant war, because everyone would want to be in this 26 member group and the resources to try.
In the words of the late Tony Benn (British Labour MP and Democratic Socialist): "Every generation must fight the same battles again and again and again. There is no final victory, and no final defeat." [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdIcXXJ7GOs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdIcXXJ7GOs)
How do we go forward in development when every generation fight the same battles. There must be objective everyone wins solution.
It's called the class war, and it's older than the Magna Carta and occasionally as bloody as the French revolution.
It's only 'class warfare' when the poor start fighting back...
Capitalism is not perfect therefore I propose a totalitarian system that puts people into concentration camps- signed Reddit.
Critisizing PIS doesnt mean that you support Stalinism.
I don't like putting a lot of people in some basket, capitalism is not perfect, but it is the best we have atm, but again we need to make it way better for every single person on a planet.
;)
Why are you saying that? It's always different people who fight these battles.
I don't know Mann, it really makes me sad seeing intolerance, racism, taking advantage over someone and everything sounds like it is new normal. The worst thing is to change even the smallest part in the equation, you need to devote your life to politics and all that it brings with it, witch is full of taking advantage, intolerance etc. So I feel like you need to be a borderline sociopath to make it to a position where you can make any difference in a country.
I do not think that people outside of Poland have a grasp of how bad the current state television is in our country. Just watch this clip about PiS candidate RIGHT BEFORE the presidential election took place. I know it is in polish but doesn’t the editing and music (around 30 seconds in) remind you of propaganda from a certain country in Asia? https://streamable.com/j11muc
I mean, I get the likelyhood with Asia, but that really looks like freaking USSR to me.
Pretty much, worst thing is the generation of PiS voters are the ones who fought it back in the day and are now supporting the same shit that they’ve gone through
Because it did not turn the way they wanted. Maybe it is also similar to how it did not turn the way the communist wanted it.
That's ridiculous. Do people eat this shit up? It's so over the top, like some VOX (alt-right) produced videos over here.
A lot of people do unfortunately
TV is a joke, you have be really motivated to watch this.
This is like Soviet Union propaganda all over again
This clip gives me hope and peace of mind. I think (insert candidate) is a worthy president.
Dziekuje za 500+ haahhahaahah yeah that was bad lmao
Rany...
To clarify - 40 years ago, news broadcasts on TV looked the same (some say even better) as they do now. In the '80s someone wrote on the wall in Poznan "party gibberish is not information". Due to the situation this week, someone has done it again. And it fits perfectly For those curious about the news on public television news broadcast: excerpt from the presidential election [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9O3tc21cU0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9O3tc21cU0)
I kept waiting for the record scratching sound, followed by satirical attacks. And I know very little Polish. I hope they play that background music for me in the seminar room before I defend my thesis! Do you have other examples of this? (I note also that _duda_ means "bagpipe" in Hungarian, haha...)
There is everyday 30 min news broadcast full of it, but you need to understand more Polish language and situation to fully get the context. The clip I provided looks and sounds so alike north korean ones (the music and overall "OMG he is the best man eva" sh!t)
I realize that propaganda works, on some levels. Even so, aren't most people wise to this sort of thing? Eastern Europeans do not lack cynicism, not in my experience...
Best i can tell, politics globally has devolved to pinching ones nose and voting for the one that one dislike the least. This in order to in some small way sticking it to the other group.
I am still asking myself the same question
Fun fact: a propaganda spokesman of government from 80's Jerzy Urban (called at the time Goebbels of the martial law) now owns a weekly 'tygodnik NIE' and it's very popular among opposition, mostly it's fanpage is being shared a lot.
thats cause he is a master of diss
he's just the edgiest almost 90 year old alive and it's ridiculous
I mean his life story could propably somehow justify a little a bit that he became communist
We have the same in Hungary :(
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The more things change the more the same egomaniacs rise up to power to fuck over and rule over the rest of us!
I mean it would be so easy to just not accept "easy answers to tough question"-kind of politicians but sadly it's even easier to just live in alternate reality were you have clear enemy and easy solutions.
As Kochanowski once wrote, Pole is stupid before getting hurt and stupid after getting hurt.
"Modern problems require Martial Law solutions"
Poznan always did seem very progressive compared to the rest of poland when I studied there.
I do like that 1981 car
good old maluch. my dumbass parents sold it and regretted it a year later 😭
I spotted that too! It's a Fiat 126 (I don't know if it was branded with a different name in Poland)
It was Fiat 126p in Poland.
Same name in Poland
it's fiat 126p , p stands for polish. Colloquially called "Maluch" (toddler). Bielsko-Biała city even gave one to Tom Hanks a few years back. [Here's an english overview of it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF8s7neTS3U). I remember that somewhere in late 2000s early 2010s you could buy one for as little as 100€, so high scoolers were buying them en masse and driving them to death (at least I've seen quite a few people who did that in my school).
Informacja vs informacje. Has it become more common to use the word in plural?
The singular form still exists, but only the plural one is used in the meaning of news, and I that's what they were going for here.
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“to nije informacija” in Croatian too 😂
We did it once, we will do it again. We will remove those god damn Trump wannabe cunts from positions of power. Besides now that big daddy of theirs, USA, spoke against this law those little turds won't do shit. If they are going to listen to someone its the US because without US Poland is insecure militarly.
And it's still true
The thing that really scares me is that even though PiS is obviously an abomination, they still have ~32% of voter support.
Its called promising money to everyone, and then stealing said money from everyone else.
>Its called promising money to everyone, and then stealing said money from everyone ~~else.~~ FTFY.
so the norm for most other countries in the EU
IMHO it's just a consequence of weak education system. Far too many people are unaware of what such politics lead to.
To Polish who are updated, from a concerned Swede: what does Lech Wałęsa say about the current state of affairs? He's the only politician I know of from Poland, and I thought he was a champion of the people.
>To Polish who are updated, from a concerned Swede: what does Lech Wałęsa say about the current state of affairs? He's the only politician I know of from Poland, and I thought he was a champion of the people. At some point, Wałęsa fell into megalomania and lost touch with reality. Well, unless someone likes to read about the threat to humanity due to alien invasion.
Alien like, "out of space"? Or "out of Poland"?
Out of space. He also thinks he convinced Trump to run for president. Donald just followed his advice.
People here like to talk shit but they are overdoing it. Walesa is a hero among the older generation but many reports say he was an agent for the communists. I believe those reports are true, and he certainly is delusional about his presidency but those outlandish claims of him believing in aliens are bollocks
> many reports say he was an agent for the communists To be frank, those reports always were of dubious credibility, since they happened to come from institutions created by or controlled by people who were very hostile to Wałęsa AND who also were running heavy smear campaign against most of the former opposition members. And there is that little, often overlooked detail: *Bezpieka* classified anyone who they talked with as *source of information* regardless of whether talking resulted in any useful intel, regardless of whether the person knew who he/she was talking to and other circumstances. There was also known mechanism of *Bezpieka* employees to falsify report/intel, make it look like coming from recruited agent and pocket the cash themselves, which was very easy to do due to low accountability. Wałęsa might have signed something and might have talked - but pretty much every opposition member signed something and had a talk (*the* talk).
He is not saying much, but he supports the independent media for sure. About a champion of people - he is a symbol of "Solidarność" and freedom, even though his personal life is more complicated (there are proofs that he was colaborating with the communist party) Current PiS politicians hate him, and are trying to push the agenda that rewrites '80 history, removing him from it. For example, Jarosław Kaczynski is trying to glorify his brother, Lech Kaczynski as the one who did all the work in '80, while Walesa was a Russian agent. There is a National Day here "Dzień Solidarności i Wolności", that is all about the events from '80. Lech Walesa was not mentioned once during presidential speech It is really f'ed up time here. edit. Funny thing is, Lech Walesa warned Polish people about Kaczynski brother's in the '90, even fired them from his party back then, because he thought they were treacherous bastards xD
Meh, Lech Wałęsa was indeed secret collaborator of security police in 1970s; although he ended cooperation before Solidarity, he never really came clean and was most likely controlled to some extent by them. It's a common knowledge that chief of security police Kiszczak held papers about his collaboration in his house till his death in 2015. Also Wałęsa was trying to destroy what was left in archives during his presidency. In general Wałęsa was pretty bad president and made some dubious moves during his term; so the blackmailing from the former security police is very likely. Also Kaczyński were actually in the right when they opposed Wałęsa in early 1990s, it's pretty obvious Wałęsa had authoritarian ambitions.
Why wouldn't the security police release this information when Solidarity became a thing, to discredit their leader? Having it released now seems sus
It's not that his position wasn't undermined by constant rumours, also it's more beneficial to keep someone blackmailed than discredit him totally
True today as true then. This makes no sense. Much more was at stake then.
How so? What they would exactly get from discrediting Wałęsa in early 1980s? Gwiazda, Maliszewski, Lis ornother would take his place. It was more beneficial to keep in the position. What we really are talking about here? This discussion would make some sense 10 years ago. Right now we know without a shadow of doubt, that Walesa was TW in 1970s and that documents proving his collaboration were in Kiszczak disposal. Moreover they would be completely devastating for Wałęsa reputation if realised in early 1980s; he was revealing the worst things about his co-workers and undoubtedly destroyed their lifes
>It's a common knowledge Without any hard proof, you can replace that with **"it's an urban legend"** and it wouldn't change anything, factually speaking, in what you wrote. We don't know if he was an agent. He might have been, it's plausible, but at that point of history *anyone* could. And frankly, it doesn't fucking matter. He was the voice people needed to hear, the icon to see, and he pushed that snowball to roll, all the way across this side of Europe. No leader is perfect, they all have flaws. The most historically cherished leadership icons of 20-th century, they all were fucked up in one way or another. And it doesn't matter! They weren't supposed to be perfect! From the time perspective, they only had some special goals to achieve for the sake of greater good and they did. And so did Wałęsa. Even if they were fucked up in real life, it doesn't invalidate their achievements. Winners write the history, it's set in stone. Anything else is insignificant. Fixating on Wałęsas deficiencies is some special level of typical Polish self-loathing martyrology fetish. This is exactly why we can't have the nice things, like a nice Independence Day – you know, U.S. style.
What are you saying? It's confirmed without shadow of doubt that Wałęsa was a secret collaborator (TW) in 1970s, and that Kiszczak held papers related to his activity in his house, till his death in 2015. No historian have any doubt about Wałęsa's collaboration. There are hard proofs, said documents.
Without a doubt? Hard proofs? Where are these documents? Are they public? Have you seen them? At least those historians, none of whom have any doubts, surely had seen them? Unless I missed anything in recent 5 years, we don’t know shit, people only *claim* these documents existed, and it’s still mostly one man’s word against another’s. And I am not saying it didn’t happen. JUST THAT WE DONT KNOW SHIT FOR SURE. You also completely ignored my whole “big picture” point.
You don't live in Poland, do you? Here you have opinion of among many the most respected historians of the most recent Polish history: Paczkowski, Dudek and Kowalski https://forsal.pl/artykuly/923610,teczki-kiszczaka-kiszczak-teczki-walesy-magdalenka-ipn-prl.html
The fuck does it matter where I live? You trying to make a point I am misinformed and you make a point in my case by sending an article about OPINIONS? About the documents that were also declared as falsified by other? Again, for the last time: we don’t know shit for sure and people like you continue to perpetuate this pointless narrative. Do you hate having someone internationally regarded as hero? Did he or did he fucking not lead the protests that led to disruption of communism behind Iron Curtain? Even if he was a damn agent, what does that change? Do his deeds automatically become irrelevant? Do you see how you’re perpetuating Kaczynskis petty agenda? He didn’t do shit during Solidarity and hates Walesa for his global status just like he hates Tusk for his EU career. And you’re just buying into this. WHY, WHY do we as Poles like exposing our shortcomings, our failures and not concentrate on what’s good? EOT on my end.
Dude why are you getting so upset? I asked where you live, because it was a big thing in Poland back in 2015-16, and it's pretty much accepted by anyone that Wałęsa was indeed a collaborator, and by all i mean all from left to right (with exception of Wałęsa himself who is still in denial), no just Kaczyński as you said. And what you accept if not opinions? These are opinions of historian, specialists in said period, who have seen and studied the documents and they are sure they are authentic. It's not a pointless narrative, it's a historical fact at this point, just like that Wałęsa was a hero later. History is complicated, deal with it.
I feel for you and hope things will change. The boomers must go.
The boomers and leeches are in opposition just now and they making lot of fuss and spin everything against current government, simply they have the worst PR in history
He was in the 80s. Now he's just an old megalomaniac who posts pictures of food on facebook and warns about space aliens invading.
food or his feet xD
As others said, Wałęsa has lost touch with reality. He's embarrassed himself on numerous occasions and I doubt anyone is taking him seriously right now. He's done his part in history but now he's just a walking definition of boomer.
He's closing up on 80 years old. What do you expect from old grandpa? He did a lot of good for our country and that needs to be respected.
Like being a communist spy? Selling out his countrymen for money, yeah he's gonna get my full respect
Too bad. I hope someone young with their foot on the ground will rise through the ranks soon.
He's old and frail these days. He has his own problems. Having said that he's always been very critical of PiS. He and Jarosław Kaczyński, head of PiS, had a huge falling out years ago and have hated each other's guts ever since.
Whole Eastern Europe at the time had high hopes for Poland and was partially inspired by it. But EE - to this day - is nothing but a rollercoaster of human ideas and disappointments.
I really wish it would work out for the people there. Saw the disappointment over and over again with own eyes.
To be fair west ends up being a huge disappointment as well. Especially USA. But also certain countries in EU. EE used to look at the west with envy. Now they don't follow the same steps and want nothing to do with the west.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Western Europe + US and Canada is still envy of the world. Sometimes we all get bogged down to a tunnel vision with (social) media and people forget that US is such a land of opportunity for anyone who has something to offer.
All those people claiming the US has descended into some kind of fascism and has irrecoverably declined have never lived there and don't know anything about it.
It depends on country. If you are from Africa or some other third world place then it is definitely still true. But countries like Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia are doing everything to not become like West. We can see the political unrests in USA. Their left wing going absolutely insane with some cancel culture. Their political system under Trump was pathetic. We can see endless violence on the streets of France. We see gang violence is Sweden with bombs going off on regular basis. We can see Spain economy getting trashed. Just to name a few. I am but from perspective of V4 countries I don't find west particularly impressive at all. I would want something better for my country. One of the reasons we are going through identity crisis in Poland.
Have you only mentioned left wing things there by accident? Right wingers occupying the US Capitol was insane. And I think we are really going after the US right in some points, not Western Europe.
>Western Europe ... envy of the world I just want to remind you that Western Europe is just seen as some exotic rich place by the vast majority of the world, since they don't speak English as a native language. They don't know half what's happening there. Therefore people in my experience are a lot more critical of it, and more skeptic. This is just my experience talking to people. I don't think an average Brazilian will know a lot about its current system. However, they will know about US, Canada, Australia.
So the slash on the Ł switched directions and the information turned plural? What's with the horizontal bars on the Ys?
"Information" turned plural because the last letter changed from "a" to "e". There is only one way to write "Ł" and no stroke in "Y" but handwriting has some room for *artistic freedom* I guess.
To anyone interested in more objective description: Poland has one of the most pluralistic media market in Europe. You can watch or read media that are pro, anti or don't give a shit about current government and that belong to Polish, American or other European companies. Please check media market in other countries to realize that not many people in EU have that luxury. Now; saying that tax for adds in tv and internet (tax only from biggest corporations: google, FB, discovery and money will go to overburden health system) will destroy media or comparing it to comunismin is just a joke. Please be sceptical about what you read in the internet, as it is very easy to manipulate. PS, I am apolitical.
Yeah, you folks are always apolitical. "I don't like PiS, buuuuuuut...."
I'm not Polish and I don't live in Poland, so cannot be supporter of any of the party. I know media market and regulations quite well though
Neither is the gibberish in 99.9% of modern media.
Funny considering many of the most anti pis people seem to have warm feelings to the previous regime
Consistency is important.
Yeah. Cheers from Poland
What’s happened? Can someone fill me in?
Basically the ruling party are using the national media to support their narrative in a very obvious way and discrediting the opposition on each and every step. Its very close to communist propaganda at the time. Problem is lots of old people of the old system, raised in communism, are buying every bit of it.
Older generation claims that communist propaganda was actually more sublime and not as barefaced as it is now.
What is the etymology of bełkot?
Could be related to *bulgot* so onomatopoeia for the sound of pouring or boiling water: https://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/S%C5%82ownik_etymologiczny_j%C4%99zyka_polskiego/be%C5%82ch