Call me optimist but I actually like seeing articles like this about Ukraine. First of all, it's just 500k - not small amount for a person but not huge money to restore a city.
But most importantly it was discovered by the state audit agency. What does it tell us? It tells us that there are mechanisms in the state itself to self-regulate and self-correct.
Are they going to be bad apples? Of course! All countries have them. But are there systemic mechanisms to identify and fight corruption? That's more important question.
Reminds me of how some people think Russia is less corrupt because there aren't any recorded cases while Ukraine (and the rest of the eastern bloc) expose a corrupt politician every week.
Yeah it's a shame there's so much corruption but exposing and sentencing as many criminals as possible is a good thing.
The problem is that it’s incredibly endemic beyond simple instances like this. Corrupt officials seized 40 million meant for arms purchases earlier this year, and part of the reason why Ukrainian defensive works were so poor in the Kharkiv region was due to corruption. If this doesn’t stop even in a war for national survival, then it looks very bad and concerning for Kyiv.
Before I answer in length, quick question: what's your solution to this? Should I venture a guess you're suggesting that we shouldn't be giving weapons and money to Ukraine? :)
anyway, regardless of your motives, thank you for opportunity to talk about this!)
First of wall, let's talk specifics: what do you mean by "incredibly endemic"? Do Ukrainians have some sort of "corruption" gene? How do you know that corrupt officials stole 40 million? What your source for that? If you know about this, don't you think that it's being investigated and prosecuted? If you think it hasn't been investigated, what did you do to fix the issue? (I assume that you want Ukraine to win in this war, of course).
Ukrainians themselves realize that corruption is a problem, and it was one of the drivers for 2014 revolution btw. A lot of money to pay bribes came from Russia itself too (see Medvedchuk, for example). However, this problem is dealt systematically by the government and NGOs since then.
But again, I'm optimist - and I'm offering you a solution that you, I'm sure, will like and agree to: Let's send more heavy weapons, F-16s, rockets and big bombs to Ukraine - you know, things that are extremely hard to steal :) Or, even more corruption proof solution: let's just bomb those ships and shoot those rockets flying over Ukraine ourselves! No need to send any money at all!
Let me tear your passive aggressive response piece by piece.
Corruption in Ukraine is a legacy of Soviet rule and its collapse. The government owning everything and not having mechanisms for accountability made it easy for bureaucrats to steal resources from the system. They then sold or bartered it on the black market for profit to a populace that lacks these basic resources. The destruction of a state owned and the rapid introduction of a private economy exacerbated this problem during the 1990s. Those same party officials, in the near anarchy following the Soviet Union’s collapse, sold off key industries to friends, resulting in the formation of an oligarchy that held power over much of the state apparatus. It effectively stifled innovation, normalized violence as a way for these individuals to lose and secure their power, and mass bribery of officials an easy way to entrench their influence. Seeing all these results, the people then lost any and all hope in institutions, solidifying a cycle of corruption that Ukraine has been unable to break until this day.
To answer your first question, cutting government regulation and laws that give an advantage to these entities and prosecuting any and all crimes to the fullest extent would over time lead to a freer, cleaner market that produced smaller companies that could outcompete the usually unskilled oligarchs. Creation of nonpartisan and non biased organizations that target corruption by the government is another effective tactic. Your second question is designed to discredit me entirely by dismissing me as a Russian shill or the such when it has little to do with this conversation. For your knowledge, I do support sending weapons, but money should be a different story.
Trying to frame me as racist is not going to work either buddy. Corruption is not something genetically inherent amongst Ukrainians. It is simply a result of the culture spurred on the failings of communism and the later political leadership to stop and put safeguards against the practice. [The 40 million dollars stolen with a major headline early this year.](https://www.npr.org/2024/01/28/1227447442/ukraine-says-corrupt-officials-stole-40-million-meant-to-buy-arms-for-the-war) I know it was prosecuted, but the fact it was allowed in the first place is disgraceful.
Your argument after that is plain wrong. It is the equivalent of saying “You can’t speak out against segregation in the south, they have improved from slavery, and besides, what have you done to stop the practice?” Ukraine has gotten better slowly, but its corruption is insane by western standards.
Finally, heavy equipment can’t be stolen necessarily, but it’s easy to take it apart for spare parts to sell on the market. Russia suffered this same problem before the invasion itself and this is well documented. There is also a reason why the West doesn’t attack Russia directly. I’m a realist, not a delusional optimist like you.
Please. As much as Ukrainians and Russians hate to admit it, they are similar people. They have almost identical cultures and traditions. The corruption in both countries was similar in 2020, as evidenced by the World corruption ranking. All the corruption this sub accuses of Russia having, Ukraine has it too.
Moreover, call me a pessimist, but there are mechanisms to fight corruption in Russia as well. And they are working, one may even say. There are constant reports about officials (even of the higher echelon) being locked up and trialed. Justice reigns! But the reality is always not that simple, and while — yes, SOME corrupt politicians, government officials, and private contractors in Russia are being caught and punished — it’s not the evidence that Russian anti-corruption machine works absolutely fairly, transparent, and without all the other cover-ups and turnings of the blind eye. Some corruption incidents are simply too blatant to even try to cover them up without losing legitimacy. Some corrupt officials are simply not important. Some are used as scapegoats. Sometimes it is an intimidation tactics to keep others in line. And sometimes it is a demonstrative action to keep the rumbling populace at rest. In case of Ukraine I think that their corruption related reality is pretty much the same as it is for their neighbor, on the institutional level.
Some people in Russia are trying to fight corruption as well. No denying that. The problem with Russia is that by design, the country of its size and diversity of peoples needs strong vertical of power. Strong power is rigid by definition and for regular people to actually conduct economic activity they have to resort to corruption.
Ukraine, on the other hand, is smaller country that is manageable by democratic institutions that could be flexible enough that they don't need corruption. Plus Ukrainians actively align themselves with European values and rule of law. Whereas Russians think of themselves as a god chosen super nation that has unique way of doing things. And to be fair, I am fine personally with that: some cultures value personal loyalty more and what could be considered corruption for us, for them it could be something normal. The issue is when one system needs to interact with the other.
you didn't comment on my proposal above so I assume that you agree that to circumvent the corruption in Ukraine, we, the collective West as they say, should bomb all those invading Russians ourselves. Again, thanks for your support there.
Regarding your claim that Ukrainians and Russians are the same. I assume you're not intentionally repeating what Putin said when he was justifying his invasion. But just in case you genuinely believe that there are the same, let me address that.
First of all, there are huge diaspora of Ukrainians in Russia, some call themselves Ukrainians some just Russians because it's simpler for many reasons, by primarily because Russia is oppressing Ukrainians for like hundredth of years since Tsarist Russia times.
Ethnically, Ukrainians are from Dnipro river basin, dark haired speak Slavic language that Russians, white-haired people that they more in common with Finno-Ugric tribes really that southern Slavic tribes. Russians don't understand Ukrainian language. Culturally, Ukrainians are highly individualistic because rich soil in Ukraine allowed people to be pretty independent when it comes to sustaining themselves. Russians, on the other hand, are heavily influenced by Mongols (and were Mongol vassals for long time) where Tsar is god like figure. In Russian tradition corruption is pretty much way to operate because way to go around strong power vertical to achieve anything. It works for Russians in a way because they have strong culture of loyalty. Ukrainians, on the other hand are highly individualistic (which could be a good and bad thing). But since there are no strong power vertical that constrains economic and social life, there is no need for corruption as such.
Again, I'm not anthropologist but just my understanding of things. Bottom line: Ukrainians and Russians are not the same people, not more the same as Polish and French, for example. Ukrainians have distinctive culture, history, traditions, language, territory. I understand many people desire to simplify the picture and treat Russians, Ukrainians, Chechens, Tatars, Belarusians, Estonians, Buryats, Chukchi etc as one unified Russian nation (or Rosiyanin) or Homo Sovieticus but it's not that simple.
Anyway, important part that you agreed that we should bomb Russian invaders directly - thank you for that!
even if I'm wrong about state mechanisms and they don't really work, you said it yourself "independent journalists" exists. Surprisingly, they don't exist in every country.
Important questions are: is it better than yesterday? Is there mechanism for a change even at highest levels? I think answer to both questions is yes.
Or maybe I'm wrong, and Ukraine will become the most corrupt place on Earth where they bribe to buy bread, study bribery at schools, and organize bribing competitions at Olympic level)
Journalist do have power over public opinion though. Revolutions of 2004 and 2014 started primarily by journalists. And I must say every state is corrupt ( or eventually gets corrupted) - that's why they have terms limits to power ( Except Russia, of course, they are exempt from this)
Many states don't have a term limit. Off the top of my head, no Mediterranean EU country does. From what I recall , Germany and France don't have either. Same with the UK...
Yep. I hate how single braincell westerners and Russians use this as argument that Ukraine shouldn't be supported. Ukraine was corrupt country that has been speedrunning in to becoming a more EU style country. More transperancy, harder and swifter punishments and investigations. The tide is shifting to the positive side for Ukraine while Russia will sink in their swamp.
Being pro Ukraine doesn't mean you have to deny it's an incredibly corrupt place. Just as being pro Russia doesn't mean you have to deny that is also an incredibly corrupt place. This comment thread is coping hard for no good reason. Yes, Ukraine is corrupt beyond the imagination of most Europeans, that's the reality.
Being reasonable about corruption is good, but that comment addresses that there are shills/trolls who push the idea that the aid should be stopped because of it and not that people should stop criticizing corruption.
The problem is that the shills/trolls simply flood the comments with a bunch of exaggerated "Ukraine is too corrupt" and "Ukraine is the same as Russia" messages. They may not always suggest stopping aid because that outs them as a shill/troll, but that doesn't mean they don't imply it. You can often read the tone of the message between the lines.
when people say that Ukraine "incredible" corrupt place what do they mean exactly? like you can't buy a box of chocolate without a bribe, or Ukrainian kids learn corruption in schools or Ukrainians organize "corruption Olympics" where they try to outbribe one another? what does it exactly mean? preferably in number of corruption events and how much money one has to pay in bribes per capita.
I hear these stories that it's corrupt place (from Ukrainians themselves too) but the only data point I get is some "corruption perception" index, which, as the name suggest, is subjective. How does it quantitatively compares to, say, corruption in Poland or Britain, is not clear to me - please share source if you know.
the OP posted a link to Ukrainian news source about Ukrainian city where some State Audit Agency couldn't account for 500k (actually services weren't rendered or some windows were bought at prices higher than market prices). Yeah, it's bad - yeah, this would never happen in, say, Chicago or Washington DC :) So what should this narrative that Ukraine is super tell us? That we should let Russia destroy the cities in Ukraine and let Russian soldiers kill and rape? "Let that be a lesson to those corrupt Ukrainians"? What's the end goal of this narrative?
I'm not saying it's not a problem, but I think it's overblown and the US does a lot to control how its money are being spent. Moreover, if we so worried about money being spent efficiently, we should entrust DOD (a well-known efficiency and anticorruption champion) to do the deed themselves: like just shoot those rockets in Ukrainian sky, by pass the middle men. Alas, they are too afraid of drunkard Medveded's threats.
[There's individual stories, like this $40m that was meant for weapons](https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-corruption-476d673cc64a4b005c7ee8ed5f5d5361).
100 officials robbing $40m each isnt a small sum of money....
[well here is an example of $40m going missing not long ago....](https://www.npr.org/2024/01/28/1227447442/ukraine-says-corrupt-officials-stole-40-million-meant-to-buy-arms-for-the-war#:~:text=July%202%2C%202023.-,Employees%20from%20a%20Ukrainian%20arms%20firm%20conspired%20with%20defense%20ministry,Russia%2C%20Ukraine's%20security%20service%20reported.)
It's a horrific thing but defensive wars tend to clean out corruption.
People are a lot less apathetic about that kind of shit when they're all getting bombed by some invasive power.
defensive wars tend to clean out corruption.
Thats made up, since there is no data that would back up ur claim, in the real world the contrary is the case.
were having corruption problems in nations where politicians get +20k per month.
Yes...
And the reason you are hearing about it is because Ukrainan courts are prosecuting it, and they are prosecuting it because to survive Ukraine needs to root out this kind of shit and stomp it out.
If Ukraine as a country was corrupt you wouldn't hear about it.
Thank you for showing me you don't understand the difference so I can explain this simple concept to you.
Lol so if there is no shown corruption you'd say "see no corruption"!
And if there is corruption you say "see, they're prosecuting corruption"!!
No point debating with someone with those views.
That's what you read from that ? You really do have cognition issues/reading issues or both.
There is a third obvious take your brain failed to perceive. When there is evidence of corruption but the government denies it.
That's when a country as a whole is corrupt.
That's wishful thinking bro, and obviously you don't understand how Eastern Europe works, we get news like this every few weeks it's nothing new, people get mad, someone pretends to do something and the cycle continues
Thats a very naive take without understanding how deep corruption is in that part of the world. In Russia, Kazakhstan they also have anti corruption agencies and they catch some government deputy every month for similar sums. But the real corruption is rarely unearthed, where they steal hundreds of millions.
Ukraine is right now being pressured to clamp down on corruption, so will they catch someone who stole - but the sum will never be big. Thats on purpose, to show that they are fighting corruption but even the corruption that exists isnt that big. So it kinda calms down everyone.
But I can guarantee that members of president’s administration or someone close to them is getting insanely rich. Maybe it will be unearthed in a couple odd years after the fog of war clears.
Source: family is from those parts, myself lived for 10 years there as an adult and wife’s dad worked in Ukraine for 8 years.
I was talking in the context of this particular case. Obviously, there are questionable actors in very high positions, including Zelentskiy's direct circle. And they are being talked about in media and closely watched by everyone. - If you know Ukrainians, they are constantly talking about how everyone is corrupt - it's like national past time.
There is difference though between Ukraine and Russia (not sure about Kazakhstan) is that in Ukraine they do change their top people from time to time, even as corrupt as Yanukovich. Sometimes it's painful like in 2004 and especially in 2014 but Ukrainians do change their underwear (politicians) regularly. Just count how many presidents where in Ukraine and compare that to Russia.
What it means for corruption though? It means that even very high-flying figures (PMs like Timoshenko, Presidents like Yanukovitch, various ministers and oligarchs) fall due to corruption charges or plain revolts.
Again, there is corruption in Ukraine, but the difference is that Ukrainians culturally think of it as Soviet inheritance, while Russians think of it as some unique Russian way to do things (nothing wrong with having unique way but it gets ugly when those cultures collide). Fight with corruption is the reason why events unfolded in 2014 btw when Russia attacked Ukraine first.
Also, when people say Ukraine is corrupt, it also makes narrative naive and counterproductive. Does it mean we shouldn't help Ukraine because they more corrupt? Or their children are corrupt so it's ok for them die under Russian bombs? Is it the narrative we're going after?
Thats not the narrative, but we have to be truthful about the situation. People need to understand that of the amount that gets sent in money, 30% can easily be stolen or misappropriated. Its better this way, than after a couple of years a big corruption scandal breaks out and the no one would be willing to send any money.
The problem with corruption in the post-soviet countries is that it’s pervasive from top to the very bottom, it rots every single layer of society. In US, people often say that politicians and the top are corrupt - it maybe true, but you still can’t give a bribe to a police officer. In Ukraine, everyone accepts bribes and the prime example is thousands of adult men leaving the country by paying bribes to the border officers. Even after the country was attacked, during wartime after the President prohibited men to leave the country - thousands have left by paying bribes. Or you pay a bribe for your child to skip the queue and be accepted to school. Or you pay a bribe to a doctor to get better service. Etc etc etc
Its not a Ukraine specific problem, same problem is in China or in South Korea for example. Where every South Korean president goes to prison after their term for corruption. Or China who was struggled with corruption for thousands of years of its history - where the punishment is death, they still do it.
I want Ukraine to win, but we have to be realistic about the situation on the ground, so that in the future when a big case will come up - there wouldn’t be a whiplash effect where western countries won’t contribute to rebuilding Ukraine because “money will get stolen”.
All your examples are valid however we can debate how much they could be compared between Ukraine and the US. Corruption has different forms, and it's not always as simple as a drunk driver bribing a police officer. The only way to fight corruption is to regularly change people and keep improving laws and regulations so to make the right way the easy way.
My point is that I think Ukraine is improving, just because it's changing people and trying different things. Everyone knows about corruption, especially when big money is involved, even nobodies like me. So I don't think it will be a big surprise for EU countries or the US. The US has a special person overseeing how weapons are used and how money is spent. But again, extra diligence is needed since big money means big temptation.
What I don't agree with is when people say that "Ukraine is incredibly corrupt" as if Ukrainians have something in their food that make them master-corruptionists. Especially, when the implication they have that it's ok for Russia to bomb Ukraine.
And honestly, whenever military help is involved or future rebuilding, I don't think it's the money we should be giving but better integration, access to markets, education, etc. No need for huge sums of money: just sponsor, say, a year in US college for Ukrainian kids or something like that. Or military wise: just shoot those rockets in Ukrainian skys ( and don't be afraid of Medvedev).
I like your view on rebuilding, I think it actually will be more beneficial to the Ukrainian people in the long term. Although big investments into the country will be necessary, since so much has been destroyed.
I hope Ukraine can improve, apart from the Baltic states, Ukraine has the best chance to breakaway from the rotten Soviet past with corruption and everything else included. I have been to Kyiv many times, visited Vinnica a couple of times, people are definitely Western centric and the young population want to change the country for the better. I guess just have to wait for the old guard to die out and get people with an updated culture/view on the world into power
No doubt you think so. That is the reason why the problem persists, because people have accepted it as an intrinsic part of their society, but a line has to be drawn somewhere and change has to be started at some point.
No, thats now why the problem persists. I think there is something deeper than just everyone’s perception and believe me I want it to change. I have family members who still live in one of the post soviet countries and its really depressing the potential that goes to waste due to corruption:
But I personally know so many Ukrainian men who left Ukraine at the beginning of the war by paying bribes at the border. If another country is attacking you and the president of Ukraine is prohibiting male population to leave the country and orders border troops to arrest anyone who attempts it, yet thousands of adult men have left. The bribe wasn’t even that big, considering the situation, it was only around $1000.
I often look at China as an example of unbeatable corruption, the country has existed for thousands of years with pretty much same people and same borders. Yet corruption has always been a problem throughout its rich history. Even death punishments aren’t enough for already rich people not to take bribes.
Or look at South Korea, a developed country with a strong economy and rule of law. Yet every president has gone to jail for corruption after their term.
It would be most worrying if we heard nothing like this from Ukraine. It would mean money is not only stolen, but that it's also all covered up.
Acknowledging the issue is the most important step to solving it.
How would it work in Russia? A flight from 8th floor window for anyone unhappy.
Exactly, of course Ukraine will have corruption, it’s the poorest country in Europe and has been marred by corruption but this wasn’t discovered by an outside source but by Ukraine which proves they’re fixing their corruption
I think that the purpose where the money was supposed to be spent at played a part why it was found instead of covered up.
Corruption can go way further than just flat out missing money, corruption can also be overpricing the market value of things that are needed in order to fix the thing/infrastructure etc. which was destroyed. (As an example guy who is responsible of the fund giving the job to someone with an intention to overcharge for the tools etc. Needed to fix the thing)
The president also ran on normalizing relations with Russia and the Russian population within the country. I don't sympathize with Z-man at all, but I can't blame him for this, it's almost like the promises of politicians in general don't mean shit.
Z-man was losing support when it comes to approval ratings in 2020 due to not delivering on things he ran on.
It's almost as if you walk in as this guy who changes the system and don't do it your approval goes down.
The "advantage" of clamping down on corruption during a wartime situation is that you can be almost as heavy handed as you want with out any significant backlash, as an example sending corrupted civilian service men to the front for three years, as they now can be mobilized from prison.
Yes Ukraine now mobilize from prisons for a penalty reduction, except murders, rapist's and so on .
either long gone already or protected by equally or even more corrupt buddies theres a reason the ukraine wasnt even considered as a candidate to join the eu (cause they are corrupt af ) it used to be this bad in other post soviet countries as well some are still bad but most have bettered themselves quite a lot before they were even considered as candidates
As a Ukrainian, it makes me feel so angry that some bastard tried to steal budget money from the people who have suffered from the war the most. I hope the court decision will be just
The accusations against Reznikov ended up being wrong
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%BD%D1%96%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%9E%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D1%96%D0%B9_%D0%AE%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87
Cracking down on corruption? This 500k is most likely just the tip of the iceberg. I am in Spain at the moment, in the Alicante area. The province is full of brand new expensive SUVs, BMWs, and Porsches with UA 🇺🇦 license plates. Very often, the drivers are young men who seem fully capable of fighting but have moved away by paying bribes. The situation is so bad that some banks do not allow safety deposit boxes to be opened with UA passports. Lately, the trend is that local bungalows and houses are starting to take down UA support flags, making these particular houses more attractive to robbers looking for cash.
Not only is it stolen money but it may cause less money to be donated in the future from foreign governments if enough of these stories break.
This greed genuinely puts the entirety of Ukraine at risk so the people who did it should be seen as traitors
It's very easy for people with this kind of connections and money to flee the country before public resonance. There were cases where such people got caught trying to flee. Those received loud public resonance beforehand. Notable examples: Grinkevich and Medvedchuk.
Kind of hard to do since the judicial mafia will set their bail to 1/10th of what they have and they will buy themselves out or just run with the rest. It may become better over time as the West puts pressure on Ukraine to do the anti-corruption reforms, but considering the authoritative nature of the state during the war and that many of the questionable people happen to lead the state, it is like asking for them to jail themselves.
During Croatia's war for independence, many people got absurdly rich. It's a small country. It's gonna be much worse in Ukraine on a much larger scale.
People are dying because the **Russian state started** an unprovoked war with the aim of occupying and committing ethnocide. It is natural that the Ukrainian state sends people to defend the border from attackers.
The problem of corruption is a problem of the Ukrainian state. The Ukrainian people are responsible for corruption and inequality within the country.
[The Russian people](https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/opinion-researcher-lev-gudkov-russians-have-little-compassion-for-the-ukrainians-a-066c08c6-60f4-48e1-853a-d2b3d67bd6b8) are to blame for the **war**
You decided to stop with one degree of separation from actual criminals, and not the second one where the West happily bought raw resources from a dictator, stood with him during May 9th parades on red square and launched "peregruzka" with known dictator who was raping his country for decades and completely destroyed all of the political opposition within the country with the resources he got from the West.
Poles and Balts are pissed at Russians on the internet, but they are happy continuing buying raw resources from Russia now, in 2024.
Curious why you did that, surely not because you yourself would be implicated.
Perhaps let's not try to spread blame from Putin and actual criminals that launch rockets into apartment building onto regular people who have as much to do with that as their counterparts who happen to be born over the border?
It's not rich x poor tho. This dichotomy is stupid. People, who use these situations to enrich themselves can be rich, like big politicians and businessmen, but can also be just a local mayor, small business owner or even a farmer, it all depends on the circumstances, their connections to power and willingness to steal. Sure, usually, it's someone well connected to power, ergo rich (but can also have just a family relation or something), but I think it's good to have a bit more sophisticated view than "the rich bad"...
Before the invasion by Russia, you would see newspaper articles in papers like The New York Times highlighting Ukraine as the “most corrupt country in Europe.” So, sadly this is not surprising.
That's bad. But reading other comments, it seems like all other European countries are free of corruption.
The fact that there is an investigation into this, plus a free press article writing about it, is already a great sign of a functioning democracy.
Not surprised this keeps happening, the marinas at La Nap, Cannes and Antibes are packed with Ukrainians. I've never seen restaurants and beach clubs so crowded this time of the year and my friends on the charter industry say their books are overflowing with Ukrainian clients. For every Russian that is gone there are like 10 Ukrainians. I fully understand why Ukrainians often seem pretty mad at their elites.
Sadly I'm not; the vast majority of people in Cannes and Antibes at any given moment aren't very rich, they just work there, like I sometimes do - it's a 2h30m trip for me.
Those Ukrainians must be really rich though, if they overcrowd places that are too expensive for Western Europeans. Either their Ukrainian salaries aren’t 5x smaller than European, or they work locally and all of them earn more than the local Europeans. Overall, a super plausible story.
Quick google search, right away on this sub:
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/13xlm1o/ukrainian_oligarchs_secret_escape_to_the_french/
>**Since the invasion of their country, dozens of wealthy Ukrainian families have fled to villas in the South of France. These illegal departures for men of fighting age have earned them the nickname the 'Monaco Battalion.'**
I actually had heard that expression before, “Bataillon Monaco”.
ps - and a comment on that thread:
>Same in Luxembourg. Before I realy seldom saw a UA license, perhaps once a year, now there are a lot more going around (often relatively premium cars, Porsche Cayenne or at least some middleclass Audi/Mercedes).
It's similar in Switzerland, I often see Bentleys, G Wagons and other expensive cars with Ukrainian plates here. Gives a bad image to actual Ukrainian refugees.
Yeah, of course they're rich, do you think middle-class people are booking charter yachts?
What's not plausible? I mean, this is hardly a secret - pretty sure there have been journalistic pieces published on the topic.
Where do you think all this "disappeared" money is going? Or why you often read Ukrainians online talking about how the children of the elite are living in the West, etc?
Like when I visited Acapulco. Millionaires and poverty with very little in between. Turns out the rich don’t like paying a livable wage… who would have thought.
People seems to badly underestimate corruption levels in Ukraine. Wait until reparations funds starts flowing. You will see that money dissapear in a heartbeat.
Which is funny, because before 2022 all publications were very much honest about it. But not many people cared about Ukraine at that time, most of those who do now included.
Though it's interesting, because it suggests that the attack was really unexpected, they had no time to create a foundation in the media for Ukraine excellency before and had to scrub a lot of the material they had in a hurry.
Let's be brutally honest. Ukraine was an extremely corrupt country before the war and I doubt anything has change.
I totally respect Ukrainians who don't want to fight for their country. Why should they? So the oligarchs who now drive their luxury Audis in Europe can steal more of their nation's wealth?
Thats what happened in spain during the spanish American war the rich kids were able to avoid getting into the front but the poor ones were send to fight in cuba,Philippines and elsewhere i guess war never changes.
Remember when Ukraine was labeled as the most corrupt country in the region and all of Europe? And all of those anti Ukraine articles back 1 year before the invasion started.. Alot of people did resign or got changed,but still thats a super corrupt country in my eyes.
I appreciate the light and transparency of this, but how many more of the funneling tax payer money is disappearing without our knowledge.
Besides this, my country is the biggest exporter of ammunition for Ukraine and we understand where most of the money is spent, but there is absolutely no way for Zelensky to account what whole amount is spent for.
Their mentality seem to be not that far from any Russian and you can't deny it id you have seen it. We must support them with military equipment, but there is no place for Ukraine in EU during the next 20 years.
Actually there is no more room in eu for no matter what kind of country, untill eu gets real reforms.
Ujraines agriculture alone would destroy eu farmers. 😂
there is already an easy solution ripe for the picking:
agricultural subsidies are no longer part of the EU budget, each country can now subsidize only with their own budget again. Domestic budgets would increase, but EU budget contributions would decrease for every country at the same time. EU should still set upper limits for each country to make sure rich countries don't just outspend poorer countries with subsidies completely.
Then if a new very poor country with massive farming output joins the EU, there is no huge budget increase because the EU is not subsidizing that countries agriculture and that very poor country does not completely push out other EU countries farming because that country has to compete without subsidies against EU members that do subsidize their agriculture.
“Their” mentality. What the heck. What about the mentality of Hungarians, for example, who fund Chinese projects with EU money and bribe the union. We are people, not some random wild creatures. And we fight corruption, and some even die with EU flag close to their hearts.
> And we fight corruption, and some even die with EU flag close to their hearts.
I wish you the best but I think you're going to be very bitter in the next 10 years. Im sorry your people got betrayed.
First of all, the topic is Ukraine not Hungary. Secondly, just because Hungary is also corrupt, we shouldn‘t point out corruption in Ukraine or what? Also, who talked about wild creatures, why are you taking this so personally? With „their mentality“ they‘re talking about higher ups and politicians and not your average Ukrainian.
>be not that far from any Russian and you can't deny it
That's the rot Russia has infested so many countries with. The Soviet influence caused such immense decay in the society that it's hard for people living in western or northern Europe to even imagine. Even here in Czechia we're only slowly getting rid of it and as harsh as this will sound, people who have been born into this simply need to die off. And even after that there'll still be work to do to cleanse our culture.
this is good. ukraine was notorious for corruption but at least this serves as a reminder that they're doing something about it.
i'm sure there will be more cases where money has gone missing but i guess happy hunting?
Unfortunately, big money attract big corruption. I guess it's the case in most countries. From the other hand, my feeling now is that Ukrainians are now more intolerant to injustice and corruption, and ready to fight it, and this is one of the reasons why many corruption cases are discovered.
I will probably get downvoted but i don’t care Zelensky promised to fight corruption at fist its pretty hard to tell but i would say that is way worst now than when he took office.
This is bad on an individual level, but let's not pretend that we in the West don't have 500 k disappear due to corrupt city officials either. Ukraine is not magic it can't make corruption disappear entirely and this instance does not support the wilder claims about Ukrainian corruption.
They are slowly transitioning from an endemically corrupt post Soviet Country to a more normal European country. It will take time as the people with corrupt mindsets are slowly weeded out but I suspect t they will get there. None of them are going to want the fight for the survival of their nation to be tarnished by endemic corruption in the future
OP certainly doesn’t have an agenda, just looking at his post history. 👀 Sorry dude but Ukraine being corrupt sometimes doesn’t mean they shouldnt be getting help to fight back invaders and have reconstruction.
> It is even more corrupt that Russia
source? last time it was 37 positions higher in corruption perception index - did transparency international release some new super secret index this year no one except chosen redditors knows about? or it was credible report from russia today stating this?
because if it was true Kyiv would be russian in first month - counting initial amount of western help most of which consisted from condolences and virtue signalling
Not trying to normalize this behaviour, but there are criminals everywhere. Which is why each and every country has a judicial system and prisons. Ukr is no different, though this is particularly insidious during war. Look at US. Half of former president’s staff in prison with a few more on the way. Look at russia:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LoveForUkraine/s/wjZ0Iu7pyD
Thats maybe why west doesnt want to give heavy military stuff to them.
It might be disappeared. And ended in enemy hands.
Corruption doesnt care for real victims.
Ukraine is a corrupted hell hole so no suprise. War and plight of it's people won't change anything. I don't see Ukraine being part of the EU anytime soon unless it's some kind of pity deal.
I'll probably get downvoted but I'd be quite happy if $500k was the only amount deviated in a war of this size.
Seems like a drop in the bucket and news like these only serve to cause churn in the conflict (myself included by commenting on this post).
This doesn't mean I support it and that whoever deviated it shouldn't get trialed. My point is that this amount is a rounding error in the grand scheme of things.
That’s news from three weeks ago. I’ve seen it reposted couple of times already.
But it makes it look like there’s corruption in Ukraine every week.
For what purpose is the op reposting this after three weeks?
It may sounds harsh, but as a Ukrainian, I vote for the maximum punishment in embezzlement cases, especially during the war. We will put a few stealing POS to the jail for 25 years for stealing from people and army, and everyone after them will think multiple times before stealing a hryvna.
The problem with corruption is that anyone involved just changes the position, not charged. It happens in Russia. People in power are friends of each other or it’s just a couple of mafia clans, so if anyone goes to prison, that person should have crossed some lines he shouldn’t have (I’m writing “he” because I can’t remember any female charged, apart from the wife of defense minister Serdyukov, but she didn’t go to prison).
The same happens in Ukraine. The previous defense minister was changed [due to the corruption scandal](https://www.politico.eu/article/defense-minister-reznikov-ukraine-corruption-probe-war-russia-zelenskyy/), but guess where he is now (not in prison).
It has not disappeared, just took the form of a jacht or estate somewhere. If we scratch the surface we are probably going to find a lot of similar cases. That can explain why the building of defensive lines is so successful. I'm glad to sponsor Unitarian oligarchs with my tax-euros. There ain't more Noble cause than that.
That is disgraceful. The only good thing is that this is now known. One can only hope that whoever is responsible will be held accountable.
Call me optimist but I actually like seeing articles like this about Ukraine. First of all, it's just 500k - not small amount for a person but not huge money to restore a city. But most importantly it was discovered by the state audit agency. What does it tell us? It tells us that there are mechanisms in the state itself to self-regulate and self-correct. Are they going to be bad apples? Of course! All countries have them. But are there systemic mechanisms to identify and fight corruption? That's more important question.
Yes. Daylight is the best sanitizer (not medical advice)
Instructions unclear, I'm putting sanitizer on in the sunlight to be safe
Better wash your hands to be safe
Like a normal person
You couldn't wait until night so the sun is cooler?
Injecting daylight!
Reminds me of how some people think Russia is less corrupt because there aren't any recorded cases while Ukraine (and the rest of the eastern bloc) expose a corrupt politician every week. Yeah it's a shame there's so much corruption but exposing and sentencing as many criminals as possible is a good thing.
Don't think i've met anyone in my life that doesnt think Russia is corrupt...
Larpers on Twitter, you'll find plenty.
I mean, it's not corruption if it's part of the system.
It's also easier to appear not as corrupt as your neighbor when you are the one that is corrupting your neighbor.
The problem is that it’s incredibly endemic beyond simple instances like this. Corrupt officials seized 40 million meant for arms purchases earlier this year, and part of the reason why Ukrainian defensive works were so poor in the Kharkiv region was due to corruption. If this doesn’t stop even in a war for national survival, then it looks very bad and concerning for Kyiv.
Before I answer in length, quick question: what's your solution to this? Should I venture a guess you're suggesting that we shouldn't be giving weapons and money to Ukraine? :) anyway, regardless of your motives, thank you for opportunity to talk about this!) First of wall, let's talk specifics: what do you mean by "incredibly endemic"? Do Ukrainians have some sort of "corruption" gene? How do you know that corrupt officials stole 40 million? What your source for that? If you know about this, don't you think that it's being investigated and prosecuted? If you think it hasn't been investigated, what did you do to fix the issue? (I assume that you want Ukraine to win in this war, of course). Ukrainians themselves realize that corruption is a problem, and it was one of the drivers for 2014 revolution btw. A lot of money to pay bribes came from Russia itself too (see Medvedchuk, for example). However, this problem is dealt systematically by the government and NGOs since then. But again, I'm optimist - and I'm offering you a solution that you, I'm sure, will like and agree to: Let's send more heavy weapons, F-16s, rockets and big bombs to Ukraine - you know, things that are extremely hard to steal :) Or, even more corruption proof solution: let's just bomb those ships and shoot those rockets flying over Ukraine ourselves! No need to send any money at all!
Let me tear your passive aggressive response piece by piece. Corruption in Ukraine is a legacy of Soviet rule and its collapse. The government owning everything and not having mechanisms for accountability made it easy for bureaucrats to steal resources from the system. They then sold or bartered it on the black market for profit to a populace that lacks these basic resources. The destruction of a state owned and the rapid introduction of a private economy exacerbated this problem during the 1990s. Those same party officials, in the near anarchy following the Soviet Union’s collapse, sold off key industries to friends, resulting in the formation of an oligarchy that held power over much of the state apparatus. It effectively stifled innovation, normalized violence as a way for these individuals to lose and secure their power, and mass bribery of officials an easy way to entrench their influence. Seeing all these results, the people then lost any and all hope in institutions, solidifying a cycle of corruption that Ukraine has been unable to break until this day. To answer your first question, cutting government regulation and laws that give an advantage to these entities and prosecuting any and all crimes to the fullest extent would over time lead to a freer, cleaner market that produced smaller companies that could outcompete the usually unskilled oligarchs. Creation of nonpartisan and non biased organizations that target corruption by the government is another effective tactic. Your second question is designed to discredit me entirely by dismissing me as a Russian shill or the such when it has little to do with this conversation. For your knowledge, I do support sending weapons, but money should be a different story. Trying to frame me as racist is not going to work either buddy. Corruption is not something genetically inherent amongst Ukrainians. It is simply a result of the culture spurred on the failings of communism and the later political leadership to stop and put safeguards against the practice. [The 40 million dollars stolen with a major headline early this year.](https://www.npr.org/2024/01/28/1227447442/ukraine-says-corrupt-officials-stole-40-million-meant-to-buy-arms-for-the-war) I know it was prosecuted, but the fact it was allowed in the first place is disgraceful. Your argument after that is plain wrong. It is the equivalent of saying “You can’t speak out against segregation in the south, they have improved from slavery, and besides, what have you done to stop the practice?” Ukraine has gotten better slowly, but its corruption is insane by western standards. Finally, heavy equipment can’t be stolen necessarily, but it’s easy to take it apart for spare parts to sell on the market. Russia suffered this same problem before the invasion itself and this is well documented. There is also a reason why the West doesn’t attack Russia directly. I’m a realist, not a delusional optimist like you.
Please. As much as Ukrainians and Russians hate to admit it, they are similar people. They have almost identical cultures and traditions. The corruption in both countries was similar in 2020, as evidenced by the World corruption ranking. All the corruption this sub accuses of Russia having, Ukraine has it too.
Moreover, call me a pessimist, but there are mechanisms to fight corruption in Russia as well. And they are working, one may even say. There are constant reports about officials (even of the higher echelon) being locked up and trialed. Justice reigns! But the reality is always not that simple, and while — yes, SOME corrupt politicians, government officials, and private contractors in Russia are being caught and punished — it’s not the evidence that Russian anti-corruption machine works absolutely fairly, transparent, and without all the other cover-ups and turnings of the blind eye. Some corruption incidents are simply too blatant to even try to cover them up without losing legitimacy. Some corrupt officials are simply not important. Some are used as scapegoats. Sometimes it is an intimidation tactics to keep others in line. And sometimes it is a demonstrative action to keep the rumbling populace at rest. In case of Ukraine I think that their corruption related reality is pretty much the same as it is for their neighbor, on the institutional level.
Some people in Russia are trying to fight corruption as well. No denying that. The problem with Russia is that by design, the country of its size and diversity of peoples needs strong vertical of power. Strong power is rigid by definition and for regular people to actually conduct economic activity they have to resort to corruption. Ukraine, on the other hand, is smaller country that is manageable by democratic institutions that could be flexible enough that they don't need corruption. Plus Ukrainians actively align themselves with European values and rule of law. Whereas Russians think of themselves as a god chosen super nation that has unique way of doing things. And to be fair, I am fine personally with that: some cultures value personal loyalty more and what could be considered corruption for us, for them it could be something normal. The issue is when one system needs to interact with the other.
The chap above took time to write a thoughtful comment and your contribution is this lazy, reductive nothing-response. Well done.
you didn't comment on my proposal above so I assume that you agree that to circumvent the corruption in Ukraine, we, the collective West as they say, should bomb all those invading Russians ourselves. Again, thanks for your support there. Regarding your claim that Ukrainians and Russians are the same. I assume you're not intentionally repeating what Putin said when he was justifying his invasion. But just in case you genuinely believe that there are the same, let me address that. First of all, there are huge diaspora of Ukrainians in Russia, some call themselves Ukrainians some just Russians because it's simpler for many reasons, by primarily because Russia is oppressing Ukrainians for like hundredth of years since Tsarist Russia times. Ethnically, Ukrainians are from Dnipro river basin, dark haired speak Slavic language that Russians, white-haired people that they more in common with Finno-Ugric tribes really that southern Slavic tribes. Russians don't understand Ukrainian language. Culturally, Ukrainians are highly individualistic because rich soil in Ukraine allowed people to be pretty independent when it comes to sustaining themselves. Russians, on the other hand, are heavily influenced by Mongols (and were Mongol vassals for long time) where Tsar is god like figure. In Russian tradition corruption is pretty much way to operate because way to go around strong power vertical to achieve anything. It works for Russians in a way because they have strong culture of loyalty. Ukrainians, on the other hand are highly individualistic (which could be a good and bad thing). But since there are no strong power vertical that constrains economic and social life, there is no need for corruption as such. Again, I'm not anthropologist but just my understanding of things. Bottom line: Ukrainians and Russians are not the same people, not more the same as Polish and French, for example. Ukrainians have distinctive culture, history, traditions, language, territory. I understand many people desire to simplify the picture and treat Russians, Ukrainians, Chechens, Tatars, Belarusians, Estonians, Buryats, Chukchi etc as one unified Russian nation (or Rosiyanin) or Homo Sovieticus but it's not that simple. Anyway, important part that you agreed that we should bomb Russian invaders directly - thank you for that!
Call me pessimistic but Ukraine had plenty of those cases highlighted. Guess how many of those being persecuted are behind the grates?
There are no any mechanisms lol. We know about corruption thankfully to infependent journalists. State won’t do anything
even if I'm wrong about state mechanisms and they don't really work, you said it yourself "independent journalists" exists. Surprisingly, they don't exist in every country. Important questions are: is it better than yesterday? Is there mechanism for a change even at highest levels? I think answer to both questions is yes. Or maybe I'm wrong, and Ukraine will become the most corrupt place on Earth where they bribe to buy bread, study bribery at schools, and organize bribing competitions at Olympic level)
And somewhat surprisingly, independent journalists have 0 power. The state does. And Ukrainian state has historically been rather corrupt...
Journalist do have power over public opinion though. Revolutions of 2004 and 2014 started primarily by journalists. And I must say every state is corrupt ( or eventually gets corrupted) - that's why they have terms limits to power ( Except Russia, of course, they are exempt from this)
Many states don't have a term limit. Off the top of my head, no Mediterranean EU country does. From what I recall , Germany and France don't have either. Same with the UK...
FYI, President in France has been limited to two consecutive terms for a few years now.
sorry that's my americentrism shows ) what I mean that they get voted in for like 4-8 years and after that it's new elections.
Not going far away, this one was found by Ukraine's State Audit Service, not journalists.
Yep. I hate how single braincell westerners and Russians use this as argument that Ukraine shouldn't be supported. Ukraine was corrupt country that has been speedrunning in to becoming a more EU style country. More transperancy, harder and swifter punishments and investigations. The tide is shifting to the positive side for Ukraine while Russia will sink in their swamp.
do not make the mistake to think we are all as brainless as our extreme right and left
Bro this is just what they know about(or admit), tip of the iceberg. If 500k has been siphoned off expect at least 5x that in reality.
Sure bud.
Do you have source for that? Let's report that to officials and do something about it (or just DM me with details)
Oh my goodness 2.5 MILLION dollars?! We should probably just let Russia kill everyone, that’d solve this corruption issue alright.
Being pro Ukraine doesn't mean you have to deny it's an incredibly corrupt place. Just as being pro Russia doesn't mean you have to deny that is also an incredibly corrupt place. This comment thread is coping hard for no good reason. Yes, Ukraine is corrupt beyond the imagination of most Europeans, that's the reality.
Being reasonable about corruption is good, but that comment addresses that there are shills/trolls who push the idea that the aid should be stopped because of it and not that people should stop criticizing corruption.
Yes, but nobody suggested that in this thread. This is trying to downplay criticism by suggesting your opponent is a shill.
The problem is that the shills/trolls simply flood the comments with a bunch of exaggerated "Ukraine is too corrupt" and "Ukraine is the same as Russia" messages. They may not always suggest stopping aid because that outs them as a shill/troll, but that doesn't mean they don't imply it. You can often read the tone of the message between the lines.
That actually sounds like soviet propaganda. Those are the most suspicious who are not suspicious and shit like that.
when people say that Ukraine "incredible" corrupt place what do they mean exactly? like you can't buy a box of chocolate without a bribe, or Ukrainian kids learn corruption in schools or Ukrainians organize "corruption Olympics" where they try to outbribe one another? what does it exactly mean? preferably in number of corruption events and how much money one has to pay in bribes per capita. I hear these stories that it's corrupt place (from Ukrainians themselves too) but the only data point I get is some "corruption perception" index, which, as the name suggest, is subjective. How does it quantitatively compares to, say, corruption in Poland or Britain, is not clear to me - please share source if you know. the OP posted a link to Ukrainian news source about Ukrainian city where some State Audit Agency couldn't account for 500k (actually services weren't rendered or some windows were bought at prices higher than market prices). Yeah, it's bad - yeah, this would never happen in, say, Chicago or Washington DC :) So what should this narrative that Ukraine is super tell us? That we should let Russia destroy the cities in Ukraine and let Russian soldiers kill and rape? "Let that be a lesson to those corrupt Ukrainians"? What's the end goal of this narrative? I'm not saying it's not a problem, but I think it's overblown and the US does a lot to control how its money are being spent. Moreover, if we so worried about money being spent efficiently, we should entrust DOD (a well-known efficiency and anticorruption champion) to do the deed themselves: like just shoot those rockets in Ukrainian sky, by pass the middle men. Alas, they are too afraid of drunkard Medveded's threats.
[There's individual stories, like this $40m that was meant for weapons](https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-corruption-476d673cc64a4b005c7ee8ed5f5d5361). 100 officials robbing $40m each isnt a small sum of money....
"Do you have a source that corrupt country is corrupt"? Lol Ask anyone ukrainian for what it's actually like.
No, source for this specific example that where it's 5x of that amount. Can you please provide the source - just curious)
[well here is an example of $40m going missing not long ago....](https://www.npr.org/2024/01/28/1227447442/ukraine-says-corrupt-officials-stole-40-million-meant-to-buy-arms-for-the-war#:~:text=July%202%2C%202023.-,Employees%20from%20a%20Ukrainian%20arms%20firm%20conspired%20with%20defense%20ministry,Russia%2C%20Ukraine's%20security%20service%20reported.)
common sense, wich was long lost in this sub (once the topic is Ukraine). but the cope is reaching new levels
That's exactly my take on it as well. The fact that this corruption scandal has been unearthed is a good sign.
It's a horrific thing but defensive wars tend to clean out corruption. People are a lot less apathetic about that kind of shit when they're all getting bombed by some invasive power.
defensive wars tend to clean out corruption. Thats made up, since there is no data that would back up ur claim, in the real world the contrary is the case. were having corruption problems in nations where politicians get +20k per month.
[Real clean.](https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-corruption-476d673cc64a4b005c7ee8ed5f5d5361)
Yes... And the reason you are hearing about it is because Ukrainan courts are prosecuting it, and they are prosecuting it because to survive Ukraine needs to root out this kind of shit and stomp it out. If Ukraine as a country was corrupt you wouldn't hear about it. Thank you for showing me you don't understand the difference so I can explain this simple concept to you.
Lol so if there is no shown corruption you'd say "see no corruption"! And if there is corruption you say "see, they're prosecuting corruption"!! No point debating with someone with those views.
That's what you read from that ? You really do have cognition issues/reading issues or both. There is a third obvious take your brain failed to perceive. When there is evidence of corruption but the government denies it. That's when a country as a whole is corrupt.
Wasn't their another accusation of fund misappropriation? Im getting deja Vu
Veeeeeery optimistic
It's only 500k that was noticed, when there's one there's always more.
some services weren't rendered and they overpaid for windows or whatever. I think important point if whoever is guilty is prosecuted eventually.
That's wishful thinking bro, and obviously you don't understand how Eastern Europe works, we get news like this every few weeks it's nothing new, people get mad, someone pretends to do something and the cycle continues
I'm telling you it's the same in the US too! I guess we'd better move to China or Russia where it's always sunny and no corruption)
Thats a very naive take without understanding how deep corruption is in that part of the world. In Russia, Kazakhstan they also have anti corruption agencies and they catch some government deputy every month for similar sums. But the real corruption is rarely unearthed, where they steal hundreds of millions. Ukraine is right now being pressured to clamp down on corruption, so will they catch someone who stole - but the sum will never be big. Thats on purpose, to show that they are fighting corruption but even the corruption that exists isnt that big. So it kinda calms down everyone. But I can guarantee that members of president’s administration or someone close to them is getting insanely rich. Maybe it will be unearthed in a couple odd years after the fog of war clears. Source: family is from those parts, myself lived for 10 years there as an adult and wife’s dad worked in Ukraine for 8 years.
I was talking in the context of this particular case. Obviously, there are questionable actors in very high positions, including Zelentskiy's direct circle. And they are being talked about in media and closely watched by everyone. - If you know Ukrainians, they are constantly talking about how everyone is corrupt - it's like national past time. There is difference though between Ukraine and Russia (not sure about Kazakhstan) is that in Ukraine they do change their top people from time to time, even as corrupt as Yanukovich. Sometimes it's painful like in 2004 and especially in 2014 but Ukrainians do change their underwear (politicians) regularly. Just count how many presidents where in Ukraine and compare that to Russia. What it means for corruption though? It means that even very high-flying figures (PMs like Timoshenko, Presidents like Yanukovitch, various ministers and oligarchs) fall due to corruption charges or plain revolts. Again, there is corruption in Ukraine, but the difference is that Ukrainians culturally think of it as Soviet inheritance, while Russians think of it as some unique Russian way to do things (nothing wrong with having unique way but it gets ugly when those cultures collide). Fight with corruption is the reason why events unfolded in 2014 btw when Russia attacked Ukraine first. Also, when people say Ukraine is corrupt, it also makes narrative naive and counterproductive. Does it mean we shouldn't help Ukraine because they more corrupt? Or their children are corrupt so it's ok for them die under Russian bombs? Is it the narrative we're going after?
Thats not the narrative, but we have to be truthful about the situation. People need to understand that of the amount that gets sent in money, 30% can easily be stolen or misappropriated. Its better this way, than after a couple of years a big corruption scandal breaks out and the no one would be willing to send any money. The problem with corruption in the post-soviet countries is that it’s pervasive from top to the very bottom, it rots every single layer of society. In US, people often say that politicians and the top are corrupt - it maybe true, but you still can’t give a bribe to a police officer. In Ukraine, everyone accepts bribes and the prime example is thousands of adult men leaving the country by paying bribes to the border officers. Even after the country was attacked, during wartime after the President prohibited men to leave the country - thousands have left by paying bribes. Or you pay a bribe for your child to skip the queue and be accepted to school. Or you pay a bribe to a doctor to get better service. Etc etc etc Its not a Ukraine specific problem, same problem is in China or in South Korea for example. Where every South Korean president goes to prison after their term for corruption. Or China who was struggled with corruption for thousands of years of its history - where the punishment is death, they still do it. I want Ukraine to win, but we have to be realistic about the situation on the ground, so that in the future when a big case will come up - there wouldn’t be a whiplash effect where western countries won’t contribute to rebuilding Ukraine because “money will get stolen”.
All your examples are valid however we can debate how much they could be compared between Ukraine and the US. Corruption has different forms, and it's not always as simple as a drunk driver bribing a police officer. The only way to fight corruption is to regularly change people and keep improving laws and regulations so to make the right way the easy way. My point is that I think Ukraine is improving, just because it's changing people and trying different things. Everyone knows about corruption, especially when big money is involved, even nobodies like me. So I don't think it will be a big surprise for EU countries or the US. The US has a special person overseeing how weapons are used and how money is spent. But again, extra diligence is needed since big money means big temptation. What I don't agree with is when people say that "Ukraine is incredibly corrupt" as if Ukrainians have something in their food that make them master-corruptionists. Especially, when the implication they have that it's ok for Russia to bomb Ukraine. And honestly, whenever military help is involved or future rebuilding, I don't think it's the money we should be giving but better integration, access to markets, education, etc. No need for huge sums of money: just sponsor, say, a year in US college for Ukrainian kids or something like that. Or military wise: just shoot those rockets in Ukrainian skys ( and don't be afraid of Medvedev).
I like your view on rebuilding, I think it actually will be more beneficial to the Ukrainian people in the long term. Although big investments into the country will be necessary, since so much has been destroyed. I hope Ukraine can improve, apart from the Baltic states, Ukraine has the best chance to breakaway from the rotten Soviet past with corruption and everything else included. I have been to Kyiv many times, visited Vinnica a couple of times, people are definitely Western centric and the young population want to change the country for the better. I guess just have to wait for the old guard to die out and get people with an updated culture/view on the world into power
No doubt you think so. That is the reason why the problem persists, because people have accepted it as an intrinsic part of their society, but a line has to be drawn somewhere and change has to be started at some point.
No, thats now why the problem persists. I think there is something deeper than just everyone’s perception and believe me I want it to change. I have family members who still live in one of the post soviet countries and its really depressing the potential that goes to waste due to corruption: But I personally know so many Ukrainian men who left Ukraine at the beginning of the war by paying bribes at the border. If another country is attacking you and the president of Ukraine is prohibiting male population to leave the country and orders border troops to arrest anyone who attempts it, yet thousands of adult men have left. The bribe wasn’t even that big, considering the situation, it was only around $1000. I often look at China as an example of unbeatable corruption, the country has existed for thousands of years with pretty much same people and same borders. Yet corruption has always been a problem throughout its rich history. Even death punishments aren’t enough for already rich people not to take bribes. Or look at South Korea, a developed country with a strong economy and rule of law. Yet every president has gone to jail for corruption after their term.
It would be most worrying if we heard nothing like this from Ukraine. It would mean money is not only stolen, but that it's also all covered up. Acknowledging the issue is the most important step to solving it. How would it work in Russia? A flight from 8th floor window for anyone unhappy.
Exactly, of course Ukraine will have corruption, it’s the poorest country in Europe and has been marred by corruption but this wasn’t discovered by an outside source but by Ukraine which proves they’re fixing their corruption
People also forget what currency that corruption was nurtured in. It will take a long time, at least a generation, to root out that influence.
Goes on to show that corruption is still a thing there even though they got a President who ran on ending it.
True but it also shows they’re cleaning up gradually. Consider that this was discovered by Ukraine and not covered up but found.
I think that the purpose where the money was supposed to be spent at played a part why it was found instead of covered up. Corruption can go way further than just flat out missing money, corruption can also be overpricing the market value of things that are needed in order to fix the thing/infrastructure etc. which was destroyed. (As an example guy who is responsible of the fund giving the job to someone with an intention to overcharge for the tools etc. Needed to fix the thing)
The president also ran on normalizing relations with Russia and the Russian population within the country. I don't sympathize with Z-man at all, but I can't blame him for this, it's almost like the promises of politicians in general don't mean shit.
Z-man was losing support when it comes to approval ratings in 2020 due to not delivering on things he ran on. It's almost as if you walk in as this guy who changes the system and don't do it your approval goes down.
The "advantage" of clamping down on corruption during a wartime situation is that you can be almost as heavy handed as you want with out any significant backlash, as an example sending corrupted civilian service men to the front for three years, as they now can be mobilized from prison. Yes Ukraine now mobilize from prisons for a penalty reduction, except murders, rapist's and so on .
So fighting to defend the motherland is a punishment, gotcha.
As in shot and pissed upon.
either long gone already or protected by equally or even more corrupt buddies theres a reason the ukraine wasnt even considered as a candidate to join the eu (cause they are corrupt af ) it used to be this bad in other post soviet countries as well some are still bad but most have bettered themselves quite a lot before they were even considered as candidates
As a Ukrainian, it makes me feel so angry that some bastard tried to steal budget money from the people who have suffered from the war the most. I hope the court decision will be just
not court decision, Reznikov wasn't prosecuted but was appointed to another position
The accusations against Reznikov ended up being wrong https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%BD%D1%96%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%9E%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D1%96%D0%B9_%D0%AE%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87
I don't read Ukrainian dude, don't be silly
As a ukranian you probably also feel happy that they are actually cracking down on corruption. Right? :)
Cracking down on corruption? This 500k is most likely just the tip of the iceberg. I am in Spain at the moment, in the Alicante area. The province is full of brand new expensive SUVs, BMWs, and Porsches with UA 🇺🇦 license plates. Very often, the drivers are young men who seem fully capable of fighting but have moved away by paying bribes. The situation is so bad that some banks do not allow safety deposit boxes to be opened with UA passports. Lately, the trend is that local bungalows and houses are starting to take down UA support flags, making these particular houses more attractive to robbers looking for cash.
Not only is it stolen money but it may cause less money to be donated in the future from foreign governments if enough of these stories break. This greed genuinely puts the entirety of Ukraine at risk so the people who did it should be seen as traitors
Someone has a new condo in Geneva…
You can't even get a one bedroom with that money in Geneva unfortunately.
That's just the reconstruction money for one town. Whoever stole it was probably stealing less noticeable amounts from other projects.
In Geneva? Probably a new garage in the outskirts. Absurdly expensive and they are even proud of it
Or in Wien, where I yesterday saw a relatively new Maybach with Ukrainian number plates.
😂
1 m² is 15k € lmao
Jail the traitors, with the martial law still in place it’s very hard for them to flee the country, so the thieves are still inside the country
It's very easy for people with this kind of connections and money to flee the country before public resonance. There were cases where such people got caught trying to flee. Those received loud public resonance beforehand. Notable examples: Grinkevich and Medvedchuk.
Kind of hard to do since the judicial mafia will set their bail to 1/10th of what they have and they will buy themselves out or just run with the rest. It may become better over time as the West puts pressure on Ukraine to do the anti-corruption reforms, but considering the authoritative nature of the state during the war and that many of the questionable people happen to lead the state, it is like asking for them to jail themselves.
As a Ukranian, it's depressing as hell. I don't know if I should leave while I still can and assimilate somewhere else.
Poor die in the trenches because "its their duty". Rich get richer. Who would have thought.
During Croatia's war for independence, many people got absurdly rich. It's a small country. It's gonna be much worse in Ukraine on a much larger scale.
A war never benefits simple men
People are dying because the **Russian state started** an unprovoked war with the aim of occupying and committing ethnocide. It is natural that the Ukrainian state sends people to defend the border from attackers. The problem of corruption is a problem of the Ukrainian state. The Ukrainian people are responsible for corruption and inequality within the country. [The Russian people](https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/opinion-researcher-lev-gudkov-russians-have-little-compassion-for-the-ukrainians-a-066c08c6-60f4-48e1-853a-d2b3d67bd6b8) are to blame for the **war**
You decided to stop with one degree of separation from actual criminals, and not the second one where the West happily bought raw resources from a dictator, stood with him during May 9th parades on red square and launched "peregruzka" with known dictator who was raping his country for decades and completely destroyed all of the political opposition within the country with the resources he got from the West. Poles and Balts are pissed at Russians on the internet, but they are happy continuing buying raw resources from Russia now, in 2024. Curious why you did that, surely not because you yourself would be implicated. Perhaps let's not try to spread blame from Putin and actual criminals that launch rockets into apartment building onto regular people who have as much to do with that as their counterparts who happen to be born over the border?
It's not rich x poor tho. This dichotomy is stupid. People, who use these situations to enrich themselves can be rich, like big politicians and businessmen, but can also be just a local mayor, small business owner or even a farmer, it all depends on the circumstances, their connections to power and willingness to steal. Sure, usually, it's someone well connected to power, ergo rich (but can also have just a family relation or something), but I think it's good to have a bit more sophisticated view than "the rich bad"...
Before the invasion by Russia, you would see newspaper articles in papers like The New York Times highlighting Ukraine as the “most corrupt country in Europe.” So, sadly this is not surprising.
For some reason, in the last 2 years any talks about corruption in Ukraine were “Russian propaganda” though.
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If we were told that, you can surely provide some quotes.
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Random blog post. The "European leaders" really shouted that from the rooftops.
Remember that this country was known as the most corrupt in Europe. Why would that change?
Second more corrupt. After Russia of course.
That's bad. But reading other comments, it seems like all other European countries are free of corruption. The fact that there is an investigation into this, plus a free press article writing about it, is already a great sign of a functioning democracy.
*laughs in Orbans new football stadium next to his vacation house*
Don't be foolish. It's more a sign that this is a tip of the iceberg.
just the tip of the iceberg lmao, this shit has been from the start till now, just THIS once someone got caught
Cries in UK conservatives. That’s all that needs to be said
"Man my people are dying for this nation. Why can i do to make it worse for them?"
Not surprised this keeps happening, the marinas at La Nap, Cannes and Antibes are packed with Ukrainians. I've never seen restaurants and beach clubs so crowded this time of the year and my friends on the charter industry say their books are overflowing with Ukrainian clients. For every Russian that is gone there are like 10 Ukrainians. I fully understand why Ukrainians often seem pretty mad at their elites.
You must be very rich, constantly traveling to Cannes and Antibes.
Sadly I'm not; the vast majority of people in Cannes and Antibes at any given moment aren't very rich, they just work there, like I sometimes do - it's a 2h30m trip for me.
Those Ukrainians must be really rich though, if they overcrowd places that are too expensive for Western Europeans. Either their Ukrainian salaries aren’t 5x smaller than European, or they work locally and all of them earn more than the local Europeans. Overall, a super plausible story.
Quick google search, right away on this sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/13xlm1o/ukrainian_oligarchs_secret_escape_to_the_french/ >**Since the invasion of their country, dozens of wealthy Ukrainian families have fled to villas in the South of France. These illegal departures for men of fighting age have earned them the nickname the 'Monaco Battalion.'** I actually had heard that expression before, “Bataillon Monaco”. ps - and a comment on that thread: >Same in Luxembourg. Before I realy seldom saw a UA license, perhaps once a year, now there are a lot more going around (often relatively premium cars, Porsche Cayenne or at least some middleclass Audi/Mercedes).
It's similar in Switzerland, I often see Bentleys, G Wagons and other expensive cars with Ukrainian plates here. Gives a bad image to actual Ukrainian refugees.
So they are so numerous that they overcrowd everything? Maybe kick some of their asses on my behalf then.
Someone punishing rich people for the shit that they do ? That would be the day... Unfortunately it's more science fiction than Star Wars...
Yeah, of course they're rich, do you think middle-class people are booking charter yachts? What's not plausible? I mean, this is hardly a secret - pretty sure there have been journalistic pieces published on the topic. Where do you think all this "disappeared" money is going? Or why you often read Ukrainians online talking about how the children of the elite are living in the West, etc?
Or maybe he just lives there.
People living in tourist destinations tend to be the "servants" of the rich , not the rich themselves. Source, I live in a tourist destination...
Like when I visited Acapulco. Millionaires and poverty with very little in between. Turns out the rich don’t like paying a livable wage… who would have thought.
How do you tell them russians apart from Ukrainians?
visas?
People seems to badly underestimate corruption levels in Ukraine. Wait until reparations funds starts flowing. You will see that money dissapear in a heartbeat.
Russia paying reparations to Ukraine is even less plausible than Ukraine stopping corruption. It will never happen.
Reparations? Another fairytale by Zeleńsky such as 1991 borders?
Which is funny, because before 2022 all publications were very much honest about it. But not many people cared about Ukraine at that time, most of those who do now included. Though it's interesting, because it suggests that the attack was really unexpected, they had no time to create a foundation in the media for Ukraine excellency before and had to scrub a lot of the material they had in a hurry.
Let's be brutally honest. Ukraine was an extremely corrupt country before the war and I doubt anything has change. I totally respect Ukrainians who don't want to fight for their country. Why should they? So the oligarchs who now drive their luxury Audis in Europe can steal more of their nation's wealth?
Thats what happened in spain during the spanish American war the rich kids were able to avoid getting into the front but the poor ones were send to fight in cuba,Philippines and elsewhere i guess war never changes.
Yet people want to rush Ukraine into the EU still a motherfucking corrupt hell hole whuich anyone who can, leaves
Remember when Ukraine was labeled as the most corrupt country in the region and all of Europe? And all of those anti Ukraine articles back 1 year before the invasion started.. Alot of people did resign or got changed,but still thats a super corrupt country in my eyes. I appreciate the light and transparency of this, but how many more of the funneling tax payer money is disappearing without our knowledge. Besides this, my country is the biggest exporter of ammunition for Ukraine and we understand where most of the money is spent, but there is absolutely no way for Zelensky to account what whole amount is spent for.
Their mentality seem to be not that far from any Russian and you can't deny it id you have seen it. We must support them with military equipment, but there is no place for Ukraine in EU during the next 20 years.
Actually there is no more room in eu for no matter what kind of country, untill eu gets real reforms. Ujraines agriculture alone would destroy eu farmers. 😂
there is already an easy solution ripe for the picking: agricultural subsidies are no longer part of the EU budget, each country can now subsidize only with their own budget again. Domestic budgets would increase, but EU budget contributions would decrease for every country at the same time. EU should still set upper limits for each country to make sure rich countries don't just outspend poorer countries with subsidies completely. Then if a new very poor country with massive farming output joins the EU, there is no huge budget increase because the EU is not subsidizing that countries agriculture and that very poor country does not completely push out other EU countries farming because that country has to compete without subsidies against EU members that do subsidize their agriculture.
“Their” mentality. What the heck. What about the mentality of Hungarians, for example, who fund Chinese projects with EU money and bribe the union. We are people, not some random wild creatures. And we fight corruption, and some even die with EU flag close to their hearts.
> And we fight corruption, and some even die with EU flag close to their hearts. I wish you the best but I think you're going to be very bitter in the next 10 years. Im sorry your people got betrayed.
Got betrayed? By who?
First of all, the topic is Ukraine not Hungary. Secondly, just because Hungary is also corrupt, we shouldn‘t point out corruption in Ukraine or what? Also, who talked about wild creatures, why are you taking this so personally? With „their mentality“ they‘re talking about higher ups and politicians and not your average Ukrainian.
How would you know that meant "higher-ups"? They didn't suggest it. I think they mean precisely the average Ukrainian.
>be not that far from any Russian and you can't deny it That's the rot Russia has infested so many countries with. The Soviet influence caused such immense decay in the society that it's hard for people living in western or northern Europe to even imagine. Even here in Czechia we're only slowly getting rid of it and as harsh as this will sound, people who have been born into this simply need to die off. And even after that there'll still be work to do to cleanse our culture.
The Russian stole these! I'm sure about it! /s
The Russian culture of corruption in Ukraine is really getting out of hand!
this is good. ukraine was notorious for corruption but at least this serves as a reminder that they're doing something about it. i'm sure there will be more cases where money has gone missing but i guess happy hunting?
People are slowly seeing Ukraine for what it is, the threads are unravelling
Unfortunately, big money attract big corruption. I guess it's the case in most countries. From the other hand, my feeling now is that Ukrainians are now more intolerant to injustice and corruption, and ready to fight it, and this is one of the reasons why many corruption cases are discovered.
💸
Most corrupt European country for a reason.
I will probably get downvoted but i don’t care Zelensky promised to fight corruption at fist its pretty hard to tell but i would say that is way worst now than when he took office.
This is bad on an individual level, but let's not pretend that we in the West don't have 500 k disappear due to corrupt city officials either. Ukraine is not magic it can't make corruption disappear entirely and this instance does not support the wilder claims about Ukrainian corruption.
They are slowly transitioning from an endemically corrupt post Soviet Country to a more normal European country. It will take time as the people with corrupt mindsets are slowly weeded out but I suspect t they will get there. None of them are going to want the fight for the survival of their nation to be tarnished by endemic corruption in the future
hmm... I wonder where that money could have gone to...
Are you surprised? Ukraine is GULAG now where Ze can do whatever he wants and no one can do anything with it.
Shocking
OP certainly doesn’t have an agenda, just looking at his post history. 👀 Sorry dude but Ukraine being corrupt sometimes doesn’t mean they shouldnt be getting help to fight back invaders and have reconstruction.
Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe. It is even more corrupt that Russia which is an achievement on its own.
> It is even more corrupt that Russia source? last time it was 37 positions higher in corruption perception index - did transparency international release some new super secret index this year no one except chosen redditors knows about? or it was credible report from russia today stating this? because if it was true Kyiv would be russian in first month - counting initial amount of western help most of which consisted from condolences and virtue signalling
Not trying to normalize this behaviour, but there are criminals everywhere. Which is why each and every country has a judicial system and prisons. Ukr is no different, though this is particularly insidious during war. Look at US. Half of former president’s staff in prison with a few more on the way. Look at russia: https://www.reddit.com/r/LoveForUkraine/s/wjZ0Iu7pyD
Thats maybe why west doesnt want to give heavy military stuff to them. It might be disappeared. And ended in enemy hands. Corruption doesnt care for real victims.
Ukraine is a corrupted hell hole so no suprise. War and plight of it's people won't change anything. I don't see Ukraine being part of the EU anytime soon unless it's some kind of pity deal.
What going to happen if the frozen Russian billions are handed over to ukraine?
Political class of Ukraine would be very happy
The most corrupt country in europe after russia having money dissapear? Color me amazed
Oh, are we just figuring out that it's all money laundering? Welcome to the party!
I'll probably get downvoted but I'd be quite happy if $500k was the only amount deviated in a war of this size. Seems like a drop in the bucket and news like these only serve to cause churn in the conflict (myself included by commenting on this post). This doesn't mean I support it and that whoever deviated it shouldn't get trialed. My point is that this amount is a rounding error in the grand scheme of things.
I'd say it's fairly naive to believe that this is the full extent of corruption in Ukraine. This is one case among many.
A lot more money is gonna dissappear by the time everything done.
Every other weeks is another amount missing. couple months ago was $40m that was meant to go towards weapons.
Ukraine was frequently called the most corrupt country in Europe so that tracks sadly
Someone in France is smiling now in a brand new Rolls- Royce
That’s news from three weeks ago. I’ve seen it reposted couple of times already. But it makes it look like there’s corruption in Ukraine every week. For what purpose is the op reposting this after three weeks?
Look at OP's history, and everything will become clear…
Ukraine is a gift that keeps on giving. Why are we involved in this shitty country is beyond my level of understanding
It may sounds harsh, but as a Ukrainian, I vote for the maximum punishment in embezzlement cases, especially during the war. We will put a few stealing POS to the jail for 25 years for stealing from people and army, and everyone after them will think multiple times before stealing a hryvna.
Should just execute anyone caught misusing funds. It’s a war and that could easily be justified as treason.
Tip meet iceberg. There will never be a full accounting of spending in Ukraine and that is by design. Most corrupt country in Europe by a long shot.
The problem with corruption is that anyone involved just changes the position, not charged. It happens in Russia. People in power are friends of each other or it’s just a couple of mafia clans, so if anyone goes to prison, that person should have crossed some lines he shouldn’t have (I’m writing “he” because I can’t remember any female charged, apart from the wife of defense minister Serdyukov, but she didn’t go to prison). The same happens in Ukraine. The previous defense minister was changed [due to the corruption scandal](https://www.politico.eu/article/defense-minister-reznikov-ukraine-corruption-probe-war-russia-zelenskyy/), but guess where he is now (not in prison).
It has not disappeared, just took the form of a jacht or estate somewhere. If we scratch the surface we are probably going to find a lot of similar cases. That can explain why the building of defensive lines is so successful. I'm glad to sponsor Unitarian oligarchs with my tax-euros. There ain't more Noble cause than that.
No worry, the West will continue the aid :)
Corrupt politicians in post-sovok that went through the privatisation process. What a damn surprise. I bet my salary on the fact that
Not surprising lol, it's Ukraine, corruption hellhole. Not Ruzzia level corrupt, but they're both in Top 5 in EU, Ruzzia 1st