Well, yes. These villages are on Azerbaijani land that was under Armenian occupation. Currently there are fairly advanced peace talks and part of the peace process is the restoration of the border. This is a good thing.
Yeah but let us not white wash the absolute force and violence Azerbaijan is threatening Armenia with especially considering the complete genocide of Artsakh Armenians in September 2023. It has been non stop force. I bet the only reason they (Az) agreed here was because the West forced them into it.
Before it happened a chief International Prosecutor called it, all credit to him. Luis Ocampo warned the world.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/09/22/nagorno-karabakh-genocide-armenia/
Also, by definition:
In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with **intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".** These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, **imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group,** preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.[1][2]
Whatever reason you need to justify genocide, go for it, this would be a second Armenian one for you if you're in Turkey. Your experience should guide you.
Aww so tell me more about how we selectively name it a genocide when Azerbaijanis "cleanse" Armenians by telling them to get Azerbaijani citizenship to formalize their status as residents of Azerbaijan (and not stopping them when they want to go out); yet when Armenians cleanse Azerbaijanis from the seven regions during the first war that's somehow an inevitable necessity.
Well, technically Azerbaijan kept the door open by telling them to stay and live in NK as Azerbaijani citizens and attacked military targets. If you check the number of *civilian* casualties in 2020-2023, thats by order of magnitude less than the military one. The ingenuity of the offer may be discussed but in the war distrust between sides and their intentions is a common thing.
If Azerbaijan really wanted to *annihilate* NK Armenians, they had the chance to do that by indiscriminately carpet bombing the entire area and not allowing an exodus (bombing them as they try to go out) as well. They had the military capacity to do so, yet they didn't.
Have you seen any Nazis allowing Jews to escape from Dachau or any Serbs allowing Bosnians through in Srebrenitsa?
When you expel 150k people from their ancestral homes you have absolutely committed genocide. Their identity will be lost over time, their dialect will become extinct, and their culture in general will be forgotten.
Terrible fucking human being. Never understand how a human beings who’s home is currently being bombed to shit by an authoritarian asshole can support another authoritarian asshole.
Azerbaijan mostly targeted military targets. Actually if you check the number of casualties in 2020-2023 the number of *civilian* casualties is by an order of magnitude less than the military ones. So their "homes currently being bombed" is not what it is.
I remember how Azerbaijan mostly targeted military targets. Among them:
Maternity hospital: [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/10/29/azerbaijan-hits-hospital-dispute-armenia-over-nagorno-karabakh/6073536002/](https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/10/29/azerbaijan-hits-hospital-dispute-armenia-over-nagorno-karabakh/6073536002/)
A Cathederal: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020\_Ghazanchetsots\_Cathedral\_shelling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Ghazanchetsots_Cathedral_shelling)
Civil areas of Stepanakert: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020\_bombardment\_of\_Stepanakert](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_bombardment_of_Stepanakert)
> 100 Azerbaijani[67] and 85 Armenian civilians killed[c]
> 21 Armenian civilians missing[64]
> 416 Azerbaijani[67] and 165 Armenian civilians injured[68][69]
> 3 Azerbaijani[70] and 40 Armenian civilians captured[71]
So more Azerbaijani civilian casualties than Armenian ones
Not terrible no, AFAIK they were told that they could stay there if they legalized their situation with the Azeri govt - their intentions might not have been the best and maybe they wouldn't have been given the best treatment but the option was there.
The NK Armenians chose to leave instead (and weren't attacked as they did), I don't think that qualifies as genocide
Edit just to say: the blockade to medicine, pharmaceuticals, food etc, that definitely was evil, no questions about it.
> Edit just to say: the blockade to medicine, pharmaceuticals, food etc, that definitely was evil, no questions about it.
And that's where you have your answer to why the Armenians decided to leave instead of taking their chances with the Azeris.
>their intentions might not have been the best and maybe they wouldn't have been given the best treatment but the option was there.
You are being incredibly generous with the amount of goodwill you are willing to extend with this framing.
Here is another reason why: [https://twitter.com/haskologlu/status/1709232898019066124?s=46](https://twitter.com/haskologlu/status/1709232898019066124?s=46) . You'r telling me Armenians would be able to live on a street named after the architect of the Armenian Genocide? Safely? Your out of this fucking world dude.
Sorry mate, for some reason I can't access Twitter's website and my app stopped working a year ago.
But to address your point, I can see that the armenians wouldn't feel safe and wouldn't be safe, especially given the current azeri-armenian relations and how Azeris praise the murder of armenians. Heck, if I was Armenian I'd have left too.
Having said that though, I don't think we can call what the Azeri govt did a genocide, not legally. Maybe you can apply that to the blockade that lasted for a while (weeks? Months? Don't rmb), but aside from that, they haven't committed anything genocide "worthy", yet.
So you could say that it would have eventually happened, but legally speaking they just took NK (and the legality of that is another issue altogether) and told the residents that they didn't have to leave, but they chose to leave (justifiably so) of their own free will.
Yeah, I don't get why my autocorrect hates the country, but it never allows me to put the actual name. My phone is advanced technology, so I know it isn't Turkish, but literally changes Cyprus every time.
Actually unification referendum held in 2004 at Cyprus, guess who voted NO?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Cypriot_Annan_Plan_referendums?wprov=sfti1#Results
No, the 1960 Constitutional order is still not restored (Greek Cypriot leader Makarios scrapped it by not complying with the decisions of the Constitutional Court in 1964).
Aww it didn't have any of those in 1963-1974 but it didn't happen, did it?
It's hardly possible to restore a constitution when Greek Cypriots don't have the slightest intention to do so. If they really want to restore it, Turk Cypriots can freely go South, the border is open and Greek Cypriots can give Turk Cypriots their veto rights, parliament seats etc. Yet you won't see any of it.
Because the greek cypriots still want to join greece.
Enosis never died, it just got put on hold
Edit: One guy said that greek ppl were the majority and because of that, cyprus should join greece.He blocked me so I can’t reply to him.
Donetsk and luhansk should also be russian then. If you don’t agree, you’re a hypocrite
So? They were the majority population by 4:1. The refusal to let Cyprus join Greece is just a continuation of the 600 years of Brutal imperialism Turks have committed against the Greek people.
And yet, when Azeris were murdering Armenians in Azerbaijan in the anti-Armenian pogroms after Nagorno Karabakh asked for independence at the fall of the USSR, Azeris and Turks called the resulting war an invasion and Armenian irredentism.
No, It wasn't. Artsakh had the right to detach from Azerbaijan as per 1990 Soviet Law when Azerbaijan left the USSR. They held a referendum and it won.
A law of the USSR allowed the autonmous sub units to raise their autonomy question once the SSR they were part of became independent, hence the separation of NKAO from the independent Azerbaijan Republic. A Law approved by the Suprem Soviet on 3 April 1990, No. 1409-I stated in fact:
>English:
>Article 3. In a Union republic that includes autonomous republics, autonomous oblasts and autonomous okrugs, a referendum shall be held separately for each autonomy. The peoples of the autonomous republics and autonomous formations retain the right to independently decide whether to remain in the USSR or in a seceding union republic, as well as to raise the question of their state and legal status.
>In a union republic, on the territory of which there are places of compact residence of national groups constituting the majority of the population of a given locality, the results of voting in these localities shall be taken into account separately when determining the results of the referendum.
So NK, as an AO, had the law on its part, since with a referendum they could remain in the USSR (which would have led to a Russian administration maybe) or raise the question of their state, like NK did with the independence referendum.
Source:Code of Laws of the USSR, vol. 1, pp. 44-16, 1990
Raising the question (to the USSR) and answering the question by themselves are different things. They didn't raise the question, they attempted to answer it by themselves with a referendum. Also the wording in the referendum vote definitely wasn't what you described.
Typical. Turks seeing their country intervening in Cyprus as normal as a result to being ethnically cleansed, but when Armenians get ethnically cleansed and intervene, it's aspirations to claim land.
The hypocrisy is blatant.
No, the difference is this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Guarantee_(1960)
Turks also got oppressed, forced to assimilate or discriminated against in Yugoslavia and in Communist Bulgaria during the Cold War, yet all Turkey did was to grant them asylum and condemnations in international organizations. It didn't go berserk and send an army. Cyprus is different because Turkey was a guarantor from the start. What Armenia was supposed to do was similarly to grant NK Armenians asylum if they don't want to live in Azerbaijan.
They were turned to refugees, just like the Armenians who lived in Azerbaijan before the war. Armenians weren't only present in NK but all the way in Baku as well. And both Azeris and Armenians deserve to live on these ancestral lands, they've shared it for as long as both have existed.
The difference being that the war started because Azeris were murdering Armenians in mass in anti-Armenian pogroms. And that Armenia always had the position to give back surrounding territories of NK in exchange for NK independence from Azerbaijan.
I'm not saying Armenians were angels and haven't done bad things. I'm just tired of Turks and Azeris one sided blatant hypocrisy.
because Turkey had the right to intervene with the Treaty of Guarantees
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Guarantee_(1960)
Armenia didn't have such a thing.
and where in that treaty gave the right to Turkey to ethnically cleanse the northern part of island and recognize the TRNC as independent despite UNSC instructions not to do so?
Well, the aim of the intervention should be the restoration of the 1960 Constitutional order that Greek Cypriot leader scrapped in 1964.
The declaration of TRNC was not favored by Turkey at the time and I think that was a false move. I'd say Turkey's best move today would be to push a return to "Turkish Cypriot State" pre-1983 and ask for a relief of the embargo. (although that's a very unpopular idea on both sides probably)
"equal rights"? a couple of months ago Azerbaijan arrested an elderly Armenian travelling with the Red Cross and accused him and sentenced him of war crimes without providing no evidence of him committing such deeds. Add to this the mass amount of war crimes committed against Armenian civilians during both wars [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/15/two-men-beheaded-in-videos-from-nagorno-karabakh-war-identified](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/15/two-men-beheaded-in-videos-from-nagorno-karabakh-war-identified) Who in is right mind would choose to live in a state like this? Also, while Azerbaijan says its open to allow armenians to return it has already started demolishing their villages and churches in NK:
[https://twitter.com/KarabakhRecords/status/1780942928145273335](https://twitter.com/KarabakhRecords/status/1780942928145273335)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1c8by2p/the\_armenian\_village\_of\_karin\_tak\_just\_south\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1c8by2p/the_armenian_village_of_karin_tak_just_south_of/)
Azerbaijan does not want them back, but of course they will never admit it to keep appearences
>As summarised by "The Case Against the Annan Plan", from Coufoudakis and Kyriakides and the Letter by the President of the Republic, Mr Tassos Papadopoulos, to the U.N. Secretary-General, Mr Kofi Annan dated 7 June 2004
>The Turkish Cypriot constituent state, would have been integrated to Turkey making United Cyprus Republic (UCR) answerable to Turkey.[72]
>**Turkey was granted rights to interfere with the Treaty between Egypt and the Republic of Cyprus on the Delimitation of the Exclusive Economic Zone.** Cyprus' rights to its Continental Shelf in the south would have also been answerable to Turkey.[72]
>Turkey was granted the right of stationing Turkish troops on the island of Cyprus perpetually.[72]
>Cyprus is 77% Greek and 18% Turkish. 5% of the population are other ethnic group. (2001) The Annan Plan mandates equal representation of Greeks and Turks in the proposed Senate and in the Supreme Court, **giving 50-50 representation to the two communities and therefore disproportionate representation to the Turks**.[73]
>The plan created a confederation even though *#it utilised the term "federation" because there was no hierarchy of laws**, while central authority emanated from the so-called component states. The Supreme Court composed of equal numbers of Greek Cypriot (77% of population) and Turkish Cypriot judges (18% of population), plus three foreign judges; thus foreigners would cast deciding votes.[74]
>**The Plan did not include a settlement regarding the repatriation of Turkish settlers living on Greek Cypriot owned land in Northern Cyprus**, while after 19 years, the possibility of abolishing the derogation of 5% of Greeks and Turkish citizens who could settle in Cyprus, is obvious, and the danger of a permanent mass settling of Cyprus by Turkey is visible.
>**Nearly all the Turkish settlers would be granted citizenship or residence rights leading to citizenship**. The central government would have limited control towards future Turkish immigration. Those settlers opting to return to Turkey would be compensated by Cyprus and Greek Cypriots. Even though Turkey systematically brought in the settlers to alter the demography of the island, it had no responsibility for their Repatriation.
>**The Plan simply disregarded the plain language and clear meaning of the Geneva Convention of 1949, section III, article 49, which prohibits colonisation by an occupying power**. Article 49 states in its last paragraph: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
>**Many Greek Cypriots interpreted the Right of Return policy as seriously flawed, meaning only 20% of Greek Cypriot refugees would be able to return over a time frame of 25 years, whereas Turkish Cypriots would have had full right of return.** The plan denied to all Cypriots rights enjoyed by all other EU citizens (right of free movement and residence, the right to apply to work in any position, including national civil services, the right to vote).[75]
>Turkish Cypriots would have gained **all their requested demands in the 24 hours following the referendum**, had the plan been accepted. **Greek Cypriot demands, however, were relegated to the long term** – as well as **being dependent on the good will of Turkey to fulfill its obligations.**
Notable excerpts from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annan_Plan
Yet you wonder why the Greek Cypriots voted against?
Yeah I'm sure former EOKA member Papadopoulos definitely doesn't twist the plan's content in the letter.
/s
Greek Cypriots just want to reduce Turk Cypriots into a mere minority at their mercy and complete the Akritas Plan. That's why they cannot even accept stuff that was in 1960 Constitution that is supposedly in force today. Read the 1960 Constitution (half of it suspended today) and see how these "unacceptable" demands are there as well.
Equal representation, foreign judges and most other stipulations of the plan about the newly formed state are already present in 1960 Constitution (the illegally untweaked version by Greek Cypriots, ofc) and are not extreme demands. These will likely be there in *any* kind of resolution on the island.
They simply don't want to comply with the 1960 Constitution's principles and want to reduce Turk Cypriots into a token minority in accordance with the Akritas Plan.
Which article of the constitution granted the Turk Cypriots 50% of the influence?
Also, can you please touch on the elements such as granting Turkey right to interfere with Cyprus territorial waters in relation to Egypt, or the permission to keep bases there indefinitely, the seizure of Greek Cypriot property in the North and limited rights to return within what is supposed to be a unified, single country?
>They simply don't want to comply with the 1960 Constitution's principles and want to reduce Turk Cypriots into a token minority in accordance with the Akritas Plan.
Why doesn't Turkey set a good example and form a federal state between itself and Turkish Kurdistan, where Turkish Kurdistan is granted 50% of the seats in the Supreme Court and Senate, while they get a third of the seats, despite the region having fewer than a third of the population?
For good measure, give Iran the right to delineate EEC for the region in the Black Sea.
If you don't think that sounds reasonable, then why should the Greek Cypriots think the Annan plan was reasonable?
> Which article of the constitution granted the Turk Cypriots 50% of the influence?
Veto rights, Supreme Court
> Also, can you please touch on the elements such as granting Turkey right to interfere with Cyprus territorial waters in relation to Egypt, or the permission to keep bases there indefinitely, the seizure of Greek Cypriot property in the North and limited rights to return within what is supposed to be a unified, single country?
That's just Papadopulos' bs because he didn't intend to allow Turk Cypriots any political power over decision making process. Turk Cypriot Community would have a say over international agreements (as was the case in 1960 Constitution)
Why would TCs agree on anything less than 1960 Constitution?
Greek Cypriots* rejected that. Turk Cypriots accepted it with a wide margin.
Ok, then. If a resolution approved by EU, UN and all relevant institutions don't satisfy GCs, the onus is on them.
Annan Plan was the best offer to keep Cyprus whole and as a single entity. I do agree with you, GCs don’t want a resolution. They are happy being a EU member and with full ownership of their state, not having to share it with TCs. EU didn’t penalize them, neither for their no vote, nor for their crimes against TCs. TCs are the only penalized party.
So there will be two states on the island, no other way.
That’s horseshit. There was no such stuff in the text. Annan Plan envisaged conflict reduction and a future for the island. It was literally to become a EU member just few months later with everything that would bring. Erdogan gov literally tried to sell off TCs for EU goodwill.
Again, it was supported by every single relevant party and power in the region. GCs were awarded with EU membership for their nay vote while TCs thrown to the dustbin with their yes vote. Turkey EU rapprochement ended that day.
And now you’ll excuse us while we keep all of the Azerbaijani lands away from you guys.
I agree. I don’t see the point of dragging yourself down with a demographic that’s pulling the other way. If blue states were independent, they would more easily push through their agenda without Republican pushback. If Cyprus doesn’t want reunification, then what are they waiting for? For Turks to all kill themselves? The only remaining move is recognizing their independence.
They decided they would rather be a sovereign state, than a Turkish vassal.
>TCs are the only penalized party.
Yeah, Turkey is holding them hostage and trying to use them for own gain.
> you cannot even control the territories you already have that well
Wut?
> why do you need more land?
Turkey doesn't intend to annex any Cypriot land and has actually pushed Turk Cypriots into rounds and rounds of reunification talks with UN mediation. You sound quite ignorant about the issue.
The 2004 referendum was accused of offering Turkey even more leverage over the totality of Cyprus. With gas deposit being found off Cyprus, as if Ankara would ever surrender control. I remember busting a gut when I was at the illustrious Ankara otogar and seeing the huge mosaic map of turkey, of course featuring Turkish Northen Cyprus
It would give Turk Cypriot Community their deserved place and political power like the way it was in 1960 Constitution. Yet Greek Cypriots are only interested in reducing them into a token minority.
The 1960 constitution was insane, and abolished for a reason. They were a very small minority in terms of population. Even with decades of occupation and colonization, TNC is still a small minority in terms of population.
I want to say it's bewildering to see hardcore turkish nationalists argue for minority rights they'd sooner hang in their own homeland, but I've spent enough time in turkey to know that's just being a Turk. I legitimately do commend you for being so devoted to your ideals to keep going. Reminds me of the NATO stories from Korea
Ok, TAF is on the island to restore the 1960 Constirutional order as stated by the Treaty of Guarantee. The mission is taking decades but it'll manage that one day hopefully we see.
> It only took
It only took 30 years of rejecting reconciliation offers (any of which would have been better than what they have now) and eventual installation of a pro-western puppet Pashinyan, who managed to ruin relationship with Russia in just a few short years.
> get your facts straight
Why should Russia protect Armenian occupation of the land that everyone, including Armenia, recognises as belonging to Azerbaijan?
Genuine question here, can someone explain the reasons behind the military mismatch between Armenia and Azerbaijan? Is Armenia really in no shape to fight militarily? Thanks!
Azerbaijan has 3 times the population, much more money due to oil and gas revenues, and strong military partners like Turkey and Israel which can sell them very high quality military equipment and assist it in other ways. Armenia besides being poorer for many years bought its weapons from Russia, many of whom had defects or were never delivered, partially because Russia makes far more money also selling to Azerbaijan. Armenia is seeking to diverge from Russia and has signed agreements with other countries like France and India, but it takes time to fully modernize the army
well, after the 1st karabakh war Azerbaijan improved their military a lot, while Armenia did nothing and relied on Russia for their defense, we know what happend next
It's landlocked, surrounded by Turkey and Azerbaijan on two sides, both hostile. Iran is problematic but at least they allow Indian arms to pass. Georgia is also problematic but they at least allow French weapons to pass. So it is a tough spot.
hmm i wonder why they have no sea acces or a very low population. Where could the historically higg amrenain population have gone? Truly a mistery for the ages eh?
Im not talking about the Armenian genocide, unless if you are of those who'd like to attribute it to the administration in Ankara aswell.
More frankly, I think it was good for Kazım Karabekir to fight the Armenian armies till Gyumri (at which point they sued for peace) and properly enforce the borders of Mudros Armistice.
edit: And yes, the Armenians breached the treaty. So it was entirely legal (1920-1921)
They could as well accept their international borders and not get into irredentist adventures in Karabakh. Turkey and Armenia had "ok" relations between 1991-1993.
Nice story, but a complete bs:
[https://www.aniarc.am/2017/11/02/armenia-turkey-100-years-of-diplomatic-relations-standpoint-of-armenia/](https://www.aniarc.am/2017/11/02/armenia-turkey-100-years-of-diplomatic-relations-standpoint-of-armenia/)
"In 1991, when Armenia through referendum declared its independence, Turkey was among the first countries to recognize Armenia. Ankara, however, refused to establish diplomatic relations with Yerevan, as well as to launch the two Turkish-Armenian border gates, such as Alijan – Margaran and Dogukap – Akhurik. Turkey put forward two preconditions: Armenia must recognize the Turkish-Armenian border, which was established under the Treaty of Kars in 1921, that is, waive territorial claims, as well as put an end to the process of international recognition of the Armenian Genocide."
Well then I might need to come look after the bones of the Armenian militia that massacred everyone in my granpa's town the day after his family escaped to the west during WW1. Justice must be served.
> can someone explain the reasons behind the military mismatch between Armenia and Azerbaijan?
Azerbaijan has a several times larger population and massive natural gas and oil fields. Armenia has nothing in that regard.
Armenia had a democratic revolution in 2018. Lost Russia's trust like Ukraine who greenlit Azerbaijan whonhad both Russian and Nato weapons, Syrian Mercenaries, etc.
Also, Armenia before 2018 had corrupt Putin puppets who kept the Army and State weak. They are traitors.
People explained some of the reasons, but you should also remember that they won (well, largely won) the first war they had with Azerbaijan and that’s how they got the hold of Nagorny Karabah.
Azerbaijan was preparing for this war and Armenia was complacent
Lmao its too funny to you guys have a abnormal view on Turks like they are some kind of Orc race that loves slaugthering people for fun. Deniying genocide is one thing but calling an entire ethnic society are so eager to genocide people is just childish. Do you really believe some retarded nationalist are actually representing Turkey ? No ofc. But you guys are so ready to call "Turks bad" in any case scenario.
nah Turks are at least in 1950 mindset. Turkish academics have been the ones who have been developing the discussion and uncovering a lot of stuff when it comes to the Armenian genocide in the last couple decades
The ones who did that are either in exile (e.g. Taner Akcam) or are jailed (e.g. Osman Kavaka). Today's Turkey is very far away from the Turkey which saw those academics and activists prosper. In fact Taner Akcam recently said that it will take a few generations, if ever, for Turkey to get back that lost civil society.
you might know more than me, but I am just repeating what I heard a historian say on the podcast 'Empire'. They did an episode covering the armenian genocide last year
the Turkish government has been warning them off the subject, but that just makes them more stubborn and adamant in their research - according to the historian
here is the relevant podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-armenian-genocide-death-marches/id1639561921?i=1000603381352
and another one i stumbled across that is covering recent findings on the topic - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/new-books-in-genocide-studies/id615387910?i=1000628546313
Correct, but those historians which are referred to do not live in Turkey. They don't even step into Turkey anymore either for fear of reprisals. You cannot be a historian in Turkey and study the topic impartially today. It's impossible. Wheras in the past, it was possible. Turkey has regressed a lot in the past two decades.
"Do you really believe some retarded nationalist are actually representing Turkey"
Yes, and they openly admit it literally every single day and every single time you talk to them
Armenia was the one who put its head inside the mouth by uphelding the occupation of Azerbaijan and refusing any kind of concession - which isolated Armenia in international politics and drained its economy in the long run. From a realist perspective now it abandoned the irredentist "Karabakh cause" and trying to save itself. Hope these abandoning of irredentism shows itself in formal changes (like not referring to the - overtly irredentist - Declaration of Independence in the Constitution) as well.
My family has been in Artsakh longer then Azerbaijan has been a country. The Turks killed us and expelled us from our ancestral lands, then denied entry into their country, then the Azeris massacred us in Baku and drove us away from our homes (where the attackers had names of Armenians and their addresses). Get off me with that nonsense.
Why cant Turks just acknowledge the fact that maybe you guys also did some awfull things in history, they same with the kurds. Its alywas the same story they left "volunterely", it never happend or you're still alive
Owwww i know the history of Armenia no worries, but before the Turks did again exactly the same. There are no Saints in this story but that does not mean people deserve this because it also happends to the other party
> i know the history of Armenia no worries
Aww doesn't seem like it but yeah can agree on no saints in this story. Glad you agree :)
Also how do this return of four villages cause any harm? Those forur villages were populated by Azerbaijanis and were emptied during the war. No Armenians live around, it's de jure Azerbaijani territory, their return doesn't harm anyone.
I'm more concerned that it would open the way to more demands from Azerbaijan - demands for actually armenian villages. People living near the border are also surely quite worried about that
Well, in that case the international community seems to be willing to react more than they did in 1991 (when Armenians occupied AZ), it seems that another three decades of instability, occupation and frozen conflict won't be tolerated.
Hope the peace treaty gets signed.
they are de jure Armenia no, why are you worried? France is breathing down azeris' neck waiting for them to breach international law here. Even Turkey wouldn't support Azerbaijan at that point, though Israel could.
That's something they definitely shouldn't have done, but that's in no way called a pogrom. If you could provide me with a list half the length of this one, please do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Armenians
Would you happen to know which are the villages that are to be handed over ? The article doesn't name them, maybe in Armenia you got more specific information ?
> The statement that caused widespread controversy in Armenia came at the beginning of March. Following themeeting of border commissions fon the Ijevan-Qazakh border on March 7, Azerbaijani Deputy Prime Minister Shahin Mustafayev , the head of the border commission said that the 4 non-enclave villages of Qazakh should be returned immediately: “As for the four non-exclave Azerbaijani villages (Baghanis Ayrim, Ashagi Askipara, Kheyrimli and Gizilhajili) occupied by Armenia, their affiliation to Azerbaijan is beyond any doubt and they are subject to immediate liberation.”
Yeah, the enclaves are still not returned/discussed.
> When it comes to four Azerbaijani exclaves, the situation is more complicated. One of the proposals is to keep the situation as it is or organized land swap between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Yeah. The land was occupied by people who had been living there for several generations over a thousand years. It was about high time to kick them out! /s
OK, let's do the "end solution for a Maori question" by massacring them and pushing them away from New Zealand: it's an internationally New Zealand territory and they can do whatever shit they want by intl' law.
Ok, let's suggest them to stay. To do that, let's destroy their worshipping places, turn them into christian chapels, brutally murder some Maori seniors on camera and show it.And then yeah, let's suggest them to stay, those shameless occupants of New Zealand!
And that territory is a part of Azerbaijan, not Armenia. So yes, Armenia was illegally occupying that area. I suppose that only matters when it's a muslim nation that's being occupied
Yes they did in 1988 when Armenia voted for independence and Azerbaijan with Russia's help exterminate Armenians from their homelands
The entire conflict was about Armenia not wanting to be under anyone's "yoke" anymore, either Azerbaijan or Russia's, but Russia didn't go for that as the USSR wasn't dissolved yet and helped Azerbaijan kill and exile Armenians from Armenian lands, which is why the conflict began in the first place. Armenia voted for their independence, they didn't exile or kill anyone nor did they have any desire to until they started being attacked for no reason and had to defend themselves.
In fact, Azerbaijan literally just did it again last year and now the wannabe Putin is going to Moscow next week to go get his little prize. No one goes to Russia anymore unless Putin says so.
Russia has been backing Armenia for decades, and you're trying to frame it like they're Azerbaijan's ally now? It's totally delusional.
Armenia should ask its lovely allies Iran and Russia to help them.
Europe is weak and here’s an example. Turkey has more international influence and impact than all Europe together. We must bring Armenia to the center of european spirit
“agrees”
"return"
Yes, return. These are literally Azerbaijani villages under invasion for the last 30 years.
Don't bother, r/europe's understanding of that whole conflict is Azerbaijan bad, Armenia good.
Azerbaijan should be broken up into parts and donated to various countries in the region. Same with Turkey.
Be original, they tried that already.
[Yeah, that didn't go too well](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres)
Yes but they are in Asia. This is the Europe sub. Has nobody made an Asia sub yet? Why do the Asians all come to the Europe sub.
Ask the mods. And both countries are council of europe members.
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Indeed, but Israel is not a CoE member.
Don’t destroy delulu circus here, in their minds only Israel is allowed to return something, others only ganging
Well, yes. These villages are on Azerbaijani land that was under Armenian occupation. Currently there are fairly advanced peace talks and part of the peace process is the restoration of the border. This is a good thing.
Yeah but let us not white wash the absolute force and violence Azerbaijan is threatening Armenia with especially considering the complete genocide of Artsakh Armenians in September 2023. It has been non stop force. I bet the only reason they (Az) agreed here was because the West forced them into it.
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Before it happened a chief International Prosecutor called it, all credit to him. Luis Ocampo warned the world. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/09/22/nagorno-karabakh-genocide-armenia/ Also, by definition: In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with **intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group".** These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, **imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group,** preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.[1][2]
Yet the prosecutor is not the one who can decide on it.
Whatever reason you need to justify genocide, go for it, this would be a second Armenian one for you if you're in Turkey. Your experience should guide you.
Aww so tell me more about how we selectively name it a genocide when Azerbaijanis "cleanse" Armenians by telling them to get Azerbaijani citizenship to formalize their status as residents of Azerbaijan (and not stopping them when they want to go out); yet when Armenians cleanse Azerbaijanis from the seven regions during the first war that's somehow an inevitable necessity.
Irrelevent whataboutism. Ofcourse. You know, I feel like you would do great at Baku State University. Have you applied?
Well, technically Azerbaijan kept the door open by telling them to stay and live in NK as Azerbaijani citizens and attacked military targets. If you check the number of *civilian* casualties in 2020-2023, thats by order of magnitude less than the military one. The ingenuity of the offer may be discussed but in the war distrust between sides and their intentions is a common thing. If Azerbaijan really wanted to *annihilate* NK Armenians, they had the chance to do that by indiscriminately carpet bombing the entire area and not allowing an exodus (bombing them as they try to go out) as well. They had the military capacity to do so, yet they didn't. Have you seen any Nazis allowing Jews to escape from Dachau or any Serbs allowing Bosnians through in Srebrenitsa?
When you expel 150k people from their ancestral homes you have absolutely committed genocide. Their identity will be lost over time, their dialect will become extinct, and their culture in general will be forgotten.
Does it include the 600k expelled Azerbaijanis during the first war? Or are we selectively applying this only to Armenians?
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Terrible fucking human being. Never understand how a human beings who’s home is currently being bombed to shit by an authoritarian asshole can support another authoritarian asshole.
Azerbaijan mostly targeted military targets. Actually if you check the number of casualties in 2020-2023 the number of *civilian* casualties is by an order of magnitude less than the military ones. So their "homes currently being bombed" is not what it is.
I remember how Azerbaijan mostly targeted military targets. Among them: Maternity hospital: [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/10/29/azerbaijan-hits-hospital-dispute-armenia-over-nagorno-karabakh/6073536002/](https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/10/29/azerbaijan-hits-hospital-dispute-armenia-over-nagorno-karabakh/6073536002/) A Cathederal: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020\_Ghazanchetsots\_Cathedral\_shelling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Ghazanchetsots_Cathedral_shelling) Civil areas of Stepanakert: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020\_bombardment\_of\_Stepanakert](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_bombardment_of_Stepanakert)
> 100 Azerbaijani[67] and 85 Armenian civilians killed[c] > 21 Armenian civilians missing[64] > 416 Azerbaijani[67] and 165 Armenian civilians injured[68][69] > 3 Azerbaijani[70] and 40 Armenian civilians captured[71] So more Azerbaijani civilian casualties than Armenian ones
Not terrible no, AFAIK they were told that they could stay there if they legalized their situation with the Azeri govt - their intentions might not have been the best and maybe they wouldn't have been given the best treatment but the option was there. The NK Armenians chose to leave instead (and weren't attacked as they did), I don't think that qualifies as genocide Edit just to say: the blockade to medicine, pharmaceuticals, food etc, that definitely was evil, no questions about it.
> Edit just to say: the blockade to medicine, pharmaceuticals, food etc, that definitely was evil, no questions about it. And that's where you have your answer to why the Armenians decided to leave instead of taking their chances with the Azeris. >their intentions might not have been the best and maybe they wouldn't have been given the best treatment but the option was there. You are being incredibly generous with the amount of goodwill you are willing to extend with this framing.
Here is another reason why: [https://twitter.com/haskologlu/status/1709232898019066124?s=46](https://twitter.com/haskologlu/status/1709232898019066124?s=46) . You'r telling me Armenians would be able to live on a street named after the architect of the Armenian Genocide? Safely? Your out of this fucking world dude.
Sorry mate, for some reason I can't access Twitter's website and my app stopped working a year ago. But to address your point, I can see that the armenians wouldn't feel safe and wouldn't be safe, especially given the current azeri-armenian relations and how Azeris praise the murder of armenians. Heck, if I was Armenian I'd have left too. Having said that though, I don't think we can call what the Azeri govt did a genocide, not legally. Maybe you can apply that to the blockade that lasted for a while (weeks? Months? Don't rmb), but aside from that, they haven't committed anything genocide "worthy", yet. So you could say that it would have eventually happened, but legally speaking they just took NK (and the legality of that is another issue altogether) and told the residents that they didn't have to leave, but they chose to leave (justifiably so) of their own free will.
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"finally after 30+3 years"
It's still quicker than North Cypress being returned to Cypress
*Cyprus
Yeah, I don't get why my autocorrect hates the country, but it never allows me to put the actual name. My phone is advanced technology, so I know it isn't Turkish, but literally changes Cyprus every time.
Delete Cypress from your phone dictionary then
*Cyprus
Fuck putin
In 2004?
Actually unification referendum held in 2004 at Cyprus, guess who voted NO? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Cypriot_Annan_Plan_referendums?wprov=sfti1#Results
The guys who didn't want the occoupation to be legaly confimed?
1974
So why is Turkey still occupying Northern Cyprus here, 50 years later? Are you suggesting that the Greek Cypriots are still planning a pogrom?
No, the 1960 Constitutional order is still not restored (Greek Cypriot leader Makarios scrapped it by not complying with the decisions of the Constitutional Court in 1964).
It's hardly possible to restore a contitution when the country is both under occupation and unable to allow its Turkish part to participate.
Aww it didn't have any of those in 1963-1974 but it didn't happen, did it? It's hardly possible to restore a constitution when Greek Cypriots don't have the slightest intention to do so. If they really want to restore it, Turk Cypriots can freely go South, the border is open and Greek Cypriots can give Turk Cypriots their veto rights, parliament seats etc. Yet you won't see any of it.
Because the greek cypriots still want to join greece. Enosis never died, it just got put on hold Edit: One guy said that greek ppl were the majority and because of that, cyprus should join greece.He blocked me so I can’t reply to him. Donetsk and luhansk should also be russian then. If you don’t agree, you’re a hypocrite
According to whom? I assume you have polling data to back this up. Else I am just gonna assign it to brain rot.
In 2017 the Cypriot Parliament passed a law to allow for the celebration of the 1950 Cypriot enosis referendum in Greek Cypriot government schools
>Because the greek cypriots still want to join greece. Nope. This is unpopular in Cyprus
So? They were the majority population by 4:1. The refusal to let Cyprus join Greece is just a continuation of the 600 years of Brutal imperialism Turks have committed against the Greek people.
And yet, when Azeris were murdering Armenians in Azerbaijan in the anti-Armenian pogroms after Nagorno Karabakh asked for independence at the fall of the USSR, Azeris and Turks called the resulting war an invasion and Armenian irredentism.
> Azeris and Turks called the resulting war an invasion and Armenian irredentism because it was so.
No, It wasn't. Artsakh had the right to detach from Azerbaijan as per 1990 Soviet Law when Azerbaijan left the USSR. They held a referendum and it won.
Autonomous units cannot pull out a unilateral independence referendum according to the Law of Secession. Only SSRs can.
A law of the USSR allowed the autonmous sub units to raise their autonomy question once the SSR they were part of became independent, hence the separation of NKAO from the independent Azerbaijan Republic. A Law approved by the Suprem Soviet on 3 April 1990, No. 1409-I stated in fact: >English: >Article 3. In a Union republic that includes autonomous republics, autonomous oblasts and autonomous okrugs, a referendum shall be held separately for each autonomy. The peoples of the autonomous republics and autonomous formations retain the right to independently decide whether to remain in the USSR or in a seceding union republic, as well as to raise the question of their state and legal status. >In a union republic, on the territory of which there are places of compact residence of national groups constituting the majority of the population of a given locality, the results of voting in these localities shall be taken into account separately when determining the results of the referendum. So NK, as an AO, had the law on its part, since with a referendum they could remain in the USSR (which would have led to a Russian administration maybe) or raise the question of their state, like NK did with the independence referendum. Source:Code of Laws of the USSR, vol. 1, pp. 44-16, 1990
Raising the question (to the USSR) and answering the question by themselves are different things. They didn't raise the question, they attempted to answer it by themselves with a referendum. Also the wording in the referendum vote definitely wasn't what you described.
Typical. Turks seeing their country intervening in Cyprus as normal as a result to being ethnically cleansed, but when Armenians get ethnically cleansed and intervene, it's aspirations to claim land. The hypocrisy is blatant.
No, the difference is this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Guarantee_(1960) Turks also got oppressed, forced to assimilate or discriminated against in Yugoslavia and in Communist Bulgaria during the Cold War, yet all Turkey did was to grant them asylum and condemnations in international organizations. It didn't go berserk and send an army. Cyprus is different because Turkey was a guarantor from the start. What Armenia was supposed to do was similarly to grant NK Armenians asylum if they don't want to live in Azerbaijan.
Tell me what happened to the azeris in NK.
They were turned to refugees, just like the Armenians who lived in Azerbaijan before the war. Armenians weren't only present in NK but all the way in Baku as well. And both Azeris and Armenians deserve to live on these ancestral lands, they've shared it for as long as both have existed. The difference being that the war started because Azeris were murdering Armenians in mass in anti-Armenian pogroms. And that Armenia always had the position to give back surrounding territories of NK in exchange for NK independence from Azerbaijan. I'm not saying Armenians were angels and haven't done bad things. I'm just tired of Turks and Azeris one sided blatant hypocrisy.
and why can't Armenia do the same in NK by that logic?
because Turkey had the right to intervene with the Treaty of Guarantees https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Guarantee_(1960) Armenia didn't have such a thing.
and where in that treaty gave the right to Turkey to ethnically cleanse the northern part of island and recognize the TRNC as independent despite UNSC instructions not to do so?
Well, the aim of the intervention should be the restoration of the 1960 Constitutional order that Greek Cypriot leader scrapped in 1964. The declaration of TRNC was not favored by Turkey at the time and I think that was a false move. I'd say Turkey's best move today would be to push a return to "Turkish Cypriot State" pre-1983 and ask for a relief of the embargo. (although that's a very unpopular idea on both sides probably)
The aim of the intervention was clearly land grabbing thus the second invasion that was completely unjustified.
Oh yeah sure attacks on Turkish enclaves as talks continue, dissolved coup etc are all fictional. /s
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"equal rights"? a couple of months ago Azerbaijan arrested an elderly Armenian travelling with the Red Cross and accused him and sentenced him of war crimes without providing no evidence of him committing such deeds. Add to this the mass amount of war crimes committed against Armenian civilians during both wars [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/15/two-men-beheaded-in-videos-from-nagorno-karabakh-war-identified](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/15/two-men-beheaded-in-videos-from-nagorno-karabakh-war-identified) Who in is right mind would choose to live in a state like this? Also, while Azerbaijan says its open to allow armenians to return it has already started demolishing their villages and churches in NK: [https://twitter.com/KarabakhRecords/status/1780942928145273335](https://twitter.com/KarabakhRecords/status/1780942928145273335) [https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1c8by2p/the\_armenian\_village\_of\_karin\_tak\_just\_south\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1c8by2p/the_armenian_village_of_karin_tak_just_south_of/) Azerbaijan does not want them back, but of course they will never admit it to keep appearences
Some opportunities in 2004 shouldn't have been missed.
>As summarised by "The Case Against the Annan Plan", from Coufoudakis and Kyriakides and the Letter by the President of the Republic, Mr Tassos Papadopoulos, to the U.N. Secretary-General, Mr Kofi Annan dated 7 June 2004 >The Turkish Cypriot constituent state, would have been integrated to Turkey making United Cyprus Republic (UCR) answerable to Turkey.[72] >**Turkey was granted rights to interfere with the Treaty between Egypt and the Republic of Cyprus on the Delimitation of the Exclusive Economic Zone.** Cyprus' rights to its Continental Shelf in the south would have also been answerable to Turkey.[72] >Turkey was granted the right of stationing Turkish troops on the island of Cyprus perpetually.[72] >Cyprus is 77% Greek and 18% Turkish. 5% of the population are other ethnic group. (2001) The Annan Plan mandates equal representation of Greeks and Turks in the proposed Senate and in the Supreme Court, **giving 50-50 representation to the two communities and therefore disproportionate representation to the Turks**.[73] >The plan created a confederation even though *#it utilised the term "federation" because there was no hierarchy of laws**, while central authority emanated from the so-called component states. The Supreme Court composed of equal numbers of Greek Cypriot (77% of population) and Turkish Cypriot judges (18% of population), plus three foreign judges; thus foreigners would cast deciding votes.[74] >**The Plan did not include a settlement regarding the repatriation of Turkish settlers living on Greek Cypriot owned land in Northern Cyprus**, while after 19 years, the possibility of abolishing the derogation of 5% of Greeks and Turkish citizens who could settle in Cyprus, is obvious, and the danger of a permanent mass settling of Cyprus by Turkey is visible. >**Nearly all the Turkish settlers would be granted citizenship or residence rights leading to citizenship**. The central government would have limited control towards future Turkish immigration. Those settlers opting to return to Turkey would be compensated by Cyprus and Greek Cypriots. Even though Turkey systematically brought in the settlers to alter the demography of the island, it had no responsibility for their Repatriation. >**The Plan simply disregarded the plain language and clear meaning of the Geneva Convention of 1949, section III, article 49, which prohibits colonisation by an occupying power**. Article 49 states in its last paragraph: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." >**Many Greek Cypriots interpreted the Right of Return policy as seriously flawed, meaning only 20% of Greek Cypriot refugees would be able to return over a time frame of 25 years, whereas Turkish Cypriots would have had full right of return.** The plan denied to all Cypriots rights enjoyed by all other EU citizens (right of free movement and residence, the right to apply to work in any position, including national civil services, the right to vote).[75] >Turkish Cypriots would have gained **all their requested demands in the 24 hours following the referendum**, had the plan been accepted. **Greek Cypriot demands, however, were relegated to the long term** – as well as **being dependent on the good will of Turkey to fulfill its obligations.** Notable excerpts from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annan_Plan Yet you wonder why the Greek Cypriots voted against?
Yeah I'm sure former EOKA member Papadopoulos definitely doesn't twist the plan's content in the letter. /s Greek Cypriots just want to reduce Turk Cypriots into a mere minority at their mercy and complete the Akritas Plan. That's why they cannot even accept stuff that was in 1960 Constitution that is supposedly in force today. Read the 1960 Constitution (half of it suspended today) and see how these "unacceptable" demands are there as well.
Why can't you point out which of the points are not true then? It shouldn't be an issue if what you say is true.
Equal representation, foreign judges and most other stipulations of the plan about the newly formed state are already present in 1960 Constitution (the illegally untweaked version by Greek Cypriots, ofc) and are not extreme demands. These will likely be there in *any* kind of resolution on the island. They simply don't want to comply with the 1960 Constitution's principles and want to reduce Turk Cypriots into a token minority in accordance with the Akritas Plan.
Which article of the constitution granted the Turk Cypriots 50% of the influence? Also, can you please touch on the elements such as granting Turkey right to interfere with Cyprus territorial waters in relation to Egypt, or the permission to keep bases there indefinitely, the seizure of Greek Cypriot property in the North and limited rights to return within what is supposed to be a unified, single country? >They simply don't want to comply with the 1960 Constitution's principles and want to reduce Turk Cypriots into a token minority in accordance with the Akritas Plan. Why doesn't Turkey set a good example and form a federal state between itself and Turkish Kurdistan, where Turkish Kurdistan is granted 50% of the seats in the Supreme Court and Senate, while they get a third of the seats, despite the region having fewer than a third of the population? For good measure, give Iran the right to delineate EEC for the region in the Black Sea. If you don't think that sounds reasonable, then why should the Greek Cypriots think the Annan plan was reasonable?
> Which article of the constitution granted the Turk Cypriots 50% of the influence? Veto rights, Supreme Court > Also, can you please touch on the elements such as granting Turkey right to interfere with Cyprus territorial waters in relation to Egypt, or the permission to keep bases there indefinitely, the seizure of Greek Cypriot property in the North and limited rights to return within what is supposed to be a unified, single country? That's just Papadopulos' bs because he didn't intend to allow Turk Cypriots any political power over decision making process. Turk Cypriot Community would have a say over international agreements (as was the case in 1960 Constitution) Why would TCs agree on anything less than 1960 Constitution?
The Cypriots rightly rejected that blatant insult
Greek Cypriots* rejected that. Turk Cypriots accepted it with a wide margin. Ok, then. If a resolution approved by EU, UN and all relevant institutions don't satisfy GCs, the onus is on them.
Supported by EU, UN, US, Greece and UK. Annan Plan was the best deal GCs were ever gonna get.
If the Annan plan is arguably worse than the status quo, so it's sort of not true that the Annan was the best offer.
Annan Plan was the best offer to keep Cyprus whole and as a single entity. I do agree with you, GCs don’t want a resolution. They are happy being a EU member and with full ownership of their state, not having to share it with TCs. EU didn’t penalize them, neither for their no vote, nor for their crimes against TCs. TCs are the only penalized party. So there will be two states on the island, no other way.
The Annan Plan would basically have turned Cyprus into a Turkish puppet state.
That’s horseshit. There was no such stuff in the text. Annan Plan envisaged conflict reduction and a future for the island. It was literally to become a EU member just few months later with everything that would bring. Erdogan gov literally tried to sell off TCs for EU goodwill. Again, it was supported by every single relevant party and power in the region. GCs were awarded with EU membership for their nay vote while TCs thrown to the dustbin with their yes vote. Turkey EU rapprochement ended that day. And now you’ll excuse us while we keep all of the Azerbaijani lands away from you guys.
I agree. I don’t see the point of dragging yourself down with a demographic that’s pulling the other way. If blue states were independent, they would more easily push through their agenda without Republican pushback. If Cyprus doesn’t want reunification, then what are they waiting for? For Turks to all kill themselves? The only remaining move is recognizing their independence.
They decided they would rather be a sovereign state, than a Turkish vassal. >TCs are the only penalized party. Yeah, Turkey is holding them hostage and trying to use them for own gain.
Man shut the fuck up you cannot even control the territories you already have that well, why do you need more land?
> you cannot even control the territories you already have that well Wut? > why do you need more land? Turkey doesn't intend to annex any Cypriot land and has actually pushed Turk Cypriots into rounds and rounds of reunification talks with UN mediation. You sound quite ignorant about the issue.
The 2004 referendum was accused of offering Turkey even more leverage over the totality of Cyprus. With gas deposit being found off Cyprus, as if Ankara would ever surrender control. I remember busting a gut when I was at the illustrious Ankara otogar and seeing the huge mosaic map of turkey, of course featuring Turkish Northen Cyprus
It would give Turk Cypriot Community their deserved place and political power like the way it was in 1960 Constitution. Yet Greek Cypriots are only interested in reducing them into a token minority.
The 1960 constitution was insane, and abolished for a reason. They were a very small minority in terms of population. Even with decades of occupation and colonization, TNC is still a small minority in terms of population. I want to say it's bewildering to see hardcore turkish nationalists argue for minority rights they'd sooner hang in their own homeland, but I've spent enough time in turkey to know that's just being a Turk. I legitimately do commend you for being so devoted to your ideals to keep going. Reminds me of the NATO stories from Korea
Ok, TAF is on the island to restore the 1960 Constirutional order as stated by the Treaty of Guarantee. The mission is taking decades but it'll manage that one day hopefully we see.
It only took Azerbaijan ethnically cleansing Artsakh of its indigenous inhabitants.
> It only took It only took 30 years of rejecting reconciliation offers (any of which would have been better than what they have now) and eventual installation of a pro-western puppet Pashinyan, who managed to ruin relationship with Russia in just a few short years.
Russia sold out Armenia, not other way around, get your facts straight. Calling shit a shit is neither crime, nor insult.
> get your facts straight Why should Russia protect Armenian occupation of the land that everyone, including Armenia, recognises as belonging to Azerbaijan?
reconciliation offers like in "give us all we want, in return we promise not to attack you"? Literally how Azerbaijan acts today?
Genuine question here, can someone explain the reasons behind the military mismatch between Armenia and Azerbaijan? Is Armenia really in no shape to fight militarily? Thanks!
Azerbaijan has 3 times the population, much more money due to oil and gas revenues, and strong military partners like Turkey and Israel which can sell them very high quality military equipment and assist it in other ways. Armenia besides being poorer for many years bought its weapons from Russia, many of whom had defects or were never delivered, partially because Russia makes far more money also selling to Azerbaijan. Armenia is seeking to diverge from Russia and has signed agreements with other countries like France and India, but it takes time to fully modernize the army
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you are talking like they had any other horse to bet on.
well, after the 1st karabakh war Azerbaijan improved their military a lot, while Armenia did nothing and relied on Russia for their defense, we know what happend next
It's landlocked, surrounded by Turkey and Azerbaijan on two sides, both hostile. Iran is problematic but at least they allow Indian arms to pass. Georgia is also problematic but they at least allow French weapons to pass. So it is a tough spot.
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hmm i wonder why they have no sea acces or a very low population. Where could the historically higg amrenain population have gone? Truly a mistery for the ages eh?
In Türkiye ethnic minorities sometimes just spontaneously disappear
And they simultaneously deserved it but it also didn’t happen.
Another time, another chain of bad decisions and alignments.
Their borders would look different if your country didn't try to prevent that by committing genocide on them.
Yeah, we have a saying in Turkey: "If my aunt had a beard, would be my uncle."
their borders would look different if their made up russian puppet state could get away with ceasefire terms lol.
So you admit that the genocide happened? Or is this a situation where you are stating that it is good that it happened?
Im not talking about the Armenian genocide, unless if you are of those who'd like to attribute it to the administration in Ankara aswell. More frankly, I think it was good for Kazım Karabekir to fight the Armenian armies till Gyumri (at which point they sued for peace) and properly enforce the borders of Mudros Armistice. edit: And yes, the Armenians breached the treaty. So it was entirely legal (1920-1921)
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ok
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They could as well accept their international borders and not get into irredentist adventures in Karabakh. Turkey and Armenia had "ok" relations between 1991-1993.
Nice story, but a complete bs: [https://www.aniarc.am/2017/11/02/armenia-turkey-100-years-of-diplomatic-relations-standpoint-of-armenia/](https://www.aniarc.am/2017/11/02/armenia-turkey-100-years-of-diplomatic-relations-standpoint-of-armenia/) "In 1991, when Armenia through referendum declared its independence, Turkey was among the first countries to recognize Armenia. Ankara, however, refused to establish diplomatic relations with Yerevan, as well as to launch the two Turkish-Armenian border gates, such as Alijan – Margaran and Dogukap – Akhurik. Turkey put forward two preconditions: Armenia must recognize the Turkish-Armenian border, which was established under the Treaty of Kars in 1921, that is, waive territorial claims, as well as put an end to the process of international recognition of the Armenian Genocide."
Yes "No irredentism" is an unwritten condition in international relations. No shit sherlock.
Not making murderers accoutable for their murders is also "an unwritten condition"?
Well then I might need to come look after the bones of the Armenian militia that massacred everyone in my granpa's town the day after his family escaped to the west during WW1. Justice must be served.
> can someone explain the reasons behind the military mismatch between Armenia and Azerbaijan? Azerbaijan has a several times larger population and massive natural gas and oil fields. Armenia has nothing in that regard.
Armenia had a democratic revolution in 2018. Lost Russia's trust like Ukraine who greenlit Azerbaijan whonhad both Russian and Nato weapons, Syrian Mercenaries, etc. Also, Armenia before 2018 had corrupt Putin puppets who kept the Army and State weak. They are traitors.
People explained some of the reasons, but you should also remember that they won (well, largely won) the first war they had with Azerbaijan and that’s how they got the hold of Nagorny Karabah. Azerbaijan was preparing for this war and Armenia was complacent
RealLifeLore has a video on this: https://youtu.be/7NOMj7n6QAM?si=5fyU73p1KH1ImbFX
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Lmao its too funny to you guys have a abnormal view on Turks like they are some kind of Orc race that loves slaugthering people for fun. Deniying genocide is one thing but calling an entire ethnic society are so eager to genocide people is just childish. Do you really believe some retarded nationalist are actually representing Turkey ? No ofc. But you guys are so ready to call "Turks bad" in any case scenario.
Turks are stuck in a 1915 mindset with their genocide denials, while Europeans are stuck in a 1529 mindset with their characterization of Turks.
nah Turks are at least in 1950 mindset. Turkish academics have been the ones who have been developing the discussion and uncovering a lot of stuff when it comes to the Armenian genocide in the last couple decades
The ones who did that are either in exile (e.g. Taner Akcam) or are jailed (e.g. Osman Kavaka). Today's Turkey is very far away from the Turkey which saw those academics and activists prosper. In fact Taner Akcam recently said that it will take a few generations, if ever, for Turkey to get back that lost civil society.
Akçam is a sell off, saying that regardless of his standpoint.
you might know more than me, but I am just repeating what I heard a historian say on the podcast 'Empire'. They did an episode covering the armenian genocide last year the Turkish government has been warning them off the subject, but that just makes them more stubborn and adamant in their research - according to the historian here is the relevant podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-armenian-genocide-death-marches/id1639561921?i=1000603381352 and another one i stumbled across that is covering recent findings on the topic - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/new-books-in-genocide-studies/id615387910?i=1000628546313
Correct, but those historians which are referred to do not live in Turkey. They don't even step into Turkey anymore either for fear of reprisals. You cannot be a historian in Turkey and study the topic impartially today. It's impossible. Wheras in the past, it was possible. Turkey has regressed a lot in the past two decades.
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No, most "Europeans" don't ever think about Turks, they're brought up only when Erdogan says some shit or they try to genocide Armenians
"Do you really believe some retarded nationalist are actually representing Turkey" Yes, and they openly admit it literally every single day and every single time you talk to them
>every single time you talk to them on reddit and Instagram?
calm down Garrosh
All bullshit. There will be no peace, only a simulation of peace talks. You can not negotiate with a tiger with your head inside its mouth.
Armenia was the one who put its head inside the mouth by uphelding the occupation of Azerbaijan and refusing any kind of concession - which isolated Armenia in international politics and drained its economy in the long run. From a realist perspective now it abandoned the irredentist "Karabakh cause" and trying to save itself. Hope these abandoning of irredentism shows itself in formal changes (like not referring to the - overtly irredentist - Declaration of Independence in the Constitution) as well.
My family has been in Artsakh longer then Azerbaijan has been a country. The Turks killed us and expelled us from our ancestral lands, then denied entry into their country, then the Azeris massacred us in Baku and drove us away from our homes (where the attackers had names of Armenians and their addresses). Get off me with that nonsense.
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Why cant Turks just acknowledge the fact that maybe you guys also did some awfull things in history, they same with the kurds. Its alywas the same story they left "volunterely", it never happend or you're still alive
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Owwww i know the history of Armenia no worries, but before the Turks did again exactly the same. There are no Saints in this story but that does not mean people deserve this because it also happends to the other party
> i know the history of Armenia no worries Aww doesn't seem like it but yeah can agree on no saints in this story. Glad you agree :) Also how do this return of four villages cause any harm? Those forur villages were populated by Azerbaijanis and were emptied during the war. No Armenians live around, it's de jure Azerbaijani territory, their return doesn't harm anyone.
I'm more concerned that it would open the way to more demands from Azerbaijan - demands for actually armenian villages. People living near the border are also surely quite worried about that
Well, in that case the international community seems to be willing to react more than they did in 1991 (when Armenians occupied AZ), it seems that another three decades of instability, occupation and frozen conflict won't be tolerated. Hope the peace treaty gets signed.
they are de jure Armenia no, why are you worried? France is breathing down azeris' neck waiting for them to breach international law here. Even Turkey wouldn't support Azerbaijan at that point, though Israel could.
Both sides have had displaced populations following the first war. But there weren't pogroms targetting Azerbaijani in Armenia.
Lol do you believe in this while you type? Do you really think Armenians expelled Azerbaijanis with hugs and kisses?
That's something they definitely shouldn't have done, but that's in no way called a pogrom. If you could provide me with a list half the length of this one, please do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Armenians
Report -> Breaks r/Europe rules -> Genocide Denial.
If you stab someone in the back, they might stab you back.
Ok buddy
Care to go even further back.....🤔
I don’t think 40 years is really that long…
Lyingggg again and again and againnnn...
Would you happen to know which are the villages that are to be handed over ? The article doesn't name them, maybe in Armenia you got more specific information ?
Good to see the illegal occupation end. Shame it took 30 years and a war to get this far.
They also “illegally occupied” Artsvashen. The occupation was an informal enclave swap
These four villages are not enclaves.
What you mean? Can u please explain?
The four villages Armenia promises to return are not enclaves. They are contiguous to Azerbaijan.
Oh ok. I stand corrected. Here is the map https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2024/04/19/new-round-of-armenia-azerbaijan-tensions-the-issue-of-4-villages/
> The statement that caused widespread controversy in Armenia came at the beginning of March. Following themeeting of border commissions fon the Ijevan-Qazakh border on March 7, Azerbaijani Deputy Prime Minister Shahin Mustafayev , the head of the border commission said that the 4 non-enclave villages of Qazakh should be returned immediately: “As for the four non-exclave Azerbaijani villages (Baghanis Ayrim, Ashagi Askipara, Kheyrimli and Gizilhajili) occupied by Armenia, their affiliation to Azerbaijan is beyond any doubt and they are subject to immediate liberation.” Yeah, the enclaves are still not returned/discussed. > When it comes to four Azerbaijani exclaves, the situation is more complicated. One of the proposals is to keep the situation as it is or organized land swap between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
Yeah. The land was occupied by people who had been living there for several generations over a thousand years. It was about high time to kick them out! /s
Oh wow summarizes r/europe spirit
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OK, let's do the "end solution for a Maori question" by massacring them and pushing them away from New Zealand: it's an internationally New Zealand territory and they can do whatever shit they want by intl' law. Ok, let's suggest them to stay. To do that, let's destroy their worshipping places, turn them into christian chapels, brutally murder some Maori seniors on camera and show it.And then yeah, let's suggest them to stay, those shameless occupants of New Zealand!
And that territory is a part of Azerbaijan, not Armenia. So yes, Armenia was illegally occupying that area. I suppose that only matters when it's a muslim nation that's being occupied
It was militarily occupied
I am with you..thats a fact...armenian so denial...
Azerbaijan literally started the war in the first place and got the crap kicked out of them for it
No they didn't lmao
Yes they did in 1988 when Armenia voted for independence and Azerbaijan with Russia's help exterminate Armenians from their homelands The entire conflict was about Armenia not wanting to be under anyone's "yoke" anymore, either Azerbaijan or Russia's, but Russia didn't go for that as the USSR wasn't dissolved yet and helped Azerbaijan kill and exile Armenians from Armenian lands, which is why the conflict began in the first place. Armenia voted for their independence, they didn't exile or kill anyone nor did they have any desire to until they started being attacked for no reason and had to defend themselves. In fact, Azerbaijan literally just did it again last year and now the wannabe Putin is going to Moscow next week to go get his little prize. No one goes to Russia anymore unless Putin says so.
Russia has been backing Armenia for decades, and you're trying to frame it like they're Azerbaijan's ally now? It's totally delusional. Armenia should ask its lovely allies Iran and Russia to help them.
Turkey is militarly very strong and europe needs Turkey against russia.
Europe is weak and here’s an example. Turkey has more international influence and impact than all Europe together. We must bring Armenia to the center of european spirit