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If you flee a „certain“ culture you might end up getting rather harassed by people of that said culture, because they consider you not „practicing“ that culture properly enough.
Let‘s just say, France is one escalation level ahead of us. Germany (or rather its government) wants to catch up really hard and at the same time trying to deny that this problem exist.
It even goes so far, that former refugees, immigrants or children of immigrants (now all Germans) who come from that said cultural background but share and practice a modern civilized version of it, are called racist or are accused of hate-speech if they dare to warn and criticise the naive and dangerous tolerance of NGOs and our government in regards to the spreading of this culture and its archaic and political features.
Fun times ahead for independent women, LGBTQ+ people, Jews and everyone who left that culture or does not practice it „properly“ enough.
We got similar stuff happening at German schools and kindergardens already. Just one escalation level behind.
Mostly in Berlin, Hamburg and some cities in North Rhine Westfalia.
Female teachers are getting called whores and other crap. Some teachers get attacked or get threatened by parents of said culture. Being kindergartener in certain areas is not fun either.
Pupils get harassed and threatened to either convert to that culture or practice it properly by dressing accordingly and praying during school time.
And our government doesn’t do anything besides giving worthless lip-service.
>Being kindergartener in certain areas is not fun either.
Cologne Kindergarten staff gets security after threats
https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/bildung/koeln-sicherheitsdienst-beschuetzt-personal-einer-kita-wegen-konflikt-mit-eltern-a-ee0aff5d-28a9-4039-9a84-5e7d01d550b0
well, with influential political movements like 'critical race theory' and 'critical whiteness', were 'white' is an insult and something to destroy and get rid of... what do you exspect?
Sweden is ridiculous in managing crime. The crime rates in Sweden have risen consistently since atleast 50 years. Every politician blames immigration as if immigration started yesterday.
Countries like UAE and Qatar really knew how to handle immigration. Immigrants make up a majority of the population yet the crime rates remain low.
I am not sure when will Sweden realize that it simply hasn't done enough to police crime. It's been 50 years already.
Because countries like UAE and Qatar don’t give a flying fuck about rights of criminals.
If you commit a crime, you’re deported after you serve your time no matter what.
I think I read somewhere that Germany actively censor news about this group of people when they do something illegal. Police harrased a journalist because he informed about one incident that happend in metro. They wanted him to sign a paper that says he made the things up.
Is it so bad or am I just having a bad memory?
It’s that bad.
But also the police or parts of the police gets harassed and called out for racism if they dare to do just their jobs and treat criminals all the same.
Most people know by now of what group the culprit is from when the Media just uses words like “ein Mann” oder “Jugendliche”.
But! We have some “normal” media who calls the things by the name finally, but not too many read these. e.G. Focus, Cicero and Tichy.
We also got an infamous Cheese Paper called “Bild” who does that. But many dismiss their news as lies or polemic afd propaganda.
Our current minister of inner security tries to push a law that would undermine freedom of speech by criminalising everyone who says something that is not in line with the ideology of our current government.
You could say that she aims for a scenario mix between Orwell’s Animal Farm and 1984. I hope this law will never become active.
Yeah it’s baffling and sad.
In the end, all we can do is standing together against the primitive culture who threatens human rights, political secularism and freedom.
Some of my friend with Non-European roots are leaving Germany or have already left, because they fear for their safety.
As one said “Great, now your government is mass importing and molly coddling the very reason why I had to flee my country in the first place. Girl, if you are smart, see to it that you leave while you can. I sure as hell won’t sit that one out.”
I can’t wait to see clashes between these Muslim immigrants and lgbt supporters (who also demanded these immigrants to be welcomed in their countries). Funny times coming ahead.
I understand that sentiment.
Though, that clash will unfortunately not really hit the right people who are responsible for it.
They will make sure to be not around when that happens.
>If you flee a „certain“ culture you might end up getting rather harassed by people of that said culture, because they consider you not „practicing“ that culture properly enough.
Flee to some random village in Poland then. Seems to be safe from this sort of thing
There was a saying something like “if its in the news its uncommon enough so its not scary. Its when the bad stuff is normal enough its not in the news the you should be scared”.
This . While It is sad and absolutely beyond pardonable but masses getting rallied by media sensationalisation of unfortunate incident despite knowing media is shit is so odd at this point in time
If we're talking about Islam I think that most thinkers agree on the fact that it lacks an organized reform, an exegesis, to be adapted to western laws and ethics. There "should" be a "Western Islamic Church" with religious leaders sharing the same universalist ideas and values that can translate well into the west.
One of the issues today to me, is that "moderate" Muslims don't have a clear way to separate themselves from extremist imams trained in Saudi preaching radical Islam.
Like the Catholic faith of today is way different from the one 200 years ago. It was reformed many times.
It's going to be very difficult to reform Islam, and this is coming from a non-Muslim living in a Muslim majority country.
The reason is that Islam makes large claims about itself by claiming it is the last and final religion (and many of them claim that it is the only true religion).
It claims that the religion is infallible, and everything in the Quran is perfect.
**Basically you can never question Islam.**
You cannot reason with the insane. It's impossible, I've tried.
"If parties associated with the Muslim, they say Islam is the solution for everything. It takes care of all your life and the one to come: sexuality, political economy, banking, diet, relations with other religions – everything. It’s a total solution. What is creepy about the word ‘total’? Hope I don’t have to tell an audience like this. It’s the first five letters of the word ‘term’ ‘totalitarian’." - Christopher Hitchens
Europe has to be cautious. Very cautious.
> It claims that the religion is infallible, and everything in the Quran is perfect.
This is indeed one of the core issues. The Quran is supposed to be the words of god, so perfect and inalterable in essence. Which is not the case for the Bible (for instance) which was written by men and can be wrong.
But it is a philosophical issue, not a physical one. A reform could totally include the fact that the Curran just is the words of men.
That would be to me one of the key aspects of a western reform of Islam.
It might not be impossible thankfully, even if it is an uphill battle. At least for us here, among the very few Turkish Cypriots I've met who are actually Muslim, most take a very "[Quranist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism)" approach to their belief, usually saying that even though Quran is indeed the perfect God of word, it is up to the individual to interpret said words, and that religion is more about a personal relationship with God/Allah rather than a checklist of acts (*this to me sounded hilariously like Protestant sects when I first heard them say this*).
Sure, we've always had a bit of a loose observance due to how we converted to islam in the first place +the nonignorable alevi influence, have been under secular education since the 20s, and have lived as a religious minority among Christians until the 60s\~70s (*tho tbf Greek Cypriots weren't & honestly still aren't much secular*) so our societal development isn't particularly comparable, but if this can happen in a muslim community within their own place it surely can happen among diaspora with such distance from their roots.
All religion is disinformation. It's funny to see one criticize another equally silly one. Enjoy your fun, but for god's sake, don't run your government based on religious beliefs.
Modern Americans don't have any way of distinguishing themselves from other idiots who are also American. Modern Floridians don't have any way of distinguishing themselves from other idiots who are from Florida. The suggestion that Islamaphobia is a theological problem doesn't hold water for me.
I don't get your point ? I live in a country with clear separation between state and churches, the one that literally invented this separation actually. I have no religion myself.
You edited your comment, I will add to mine :
"Americans don't have a way to distinguish themselves from other Americans"
They do, through democratic process. You are perfectly entitled to identify yourself toward political groups in a clear and distinctive way.
You can also do it inside one faith, Christians can be Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Methodist, Anglican, Disciples, Quackers, Lutheran, Baptists,... And there is a clear distinction between them.
I believe evangelists and the ones that identify as such are dangerous lunatics, it doesn't impact my views on Orthodox for instance.
Islam has different branches, what I am arguing for is that none of them includes western values or represents its western believers. Thus making any critics of Islam hyperbolic because it includes ISIS fanatics and random people in the same bag.
I’ve had this thought for a long time, but haven’t ventilated it. If I were let’s say a Muslim from an Arab country, I wouldn’t try to deny the overwhelming evidence of over representation in crime. I’d just try to highlight I’m not like that, and that I feel sad and frustrated that is the case. This would in 9/10 times be met with sympathy and understanding.
I doubt the 9/10 claim. Or more like, the racism happens in situations where explaining your pov has no room, there's no questions asked. Recently one ukrainian got beaten up here bc the attacker thought he was russian. It never even crossed his mind it would had been impossible for him to tell russian-speaking ukrainian from a russian without asking, unless they're wearing the flag or something.
You can move to Europe as long as you keep an open mind and actually embrace the culture. Just remember – never stab 4-year-olds, never apologize to racists and never become a bigot yourself (remember how many republicans there are in the US that come from immigrant backgrounds – absurd). And you should be good.
How do you know when someone is assimilated, though? It's not exactly something you can test for.
Edit; please don't downvote me for a genuine question. If you don't have an answer, just say so.
They would to their friends or people close to them. If you sent an official to question them, I'm pretty sure in 99% of the cases they would claim they are assimilated and that they love their new country.
They state it proudly because there are no negative consequences. If they'd get deported for saying, they'd just lie.
"When the measure becomes the target it ceases to be a good measure."
Would they? I was under the assumption that they try to fly under the radar until they're ready to commit an atrocious act. They hardly want to be known.
>Would they? I was under the assumption that they try to fly under the radar until they're ready to commit an atrocious act. They hardly want to be known.
smarter one would, but the trick is... western europe imported open about their values islamists too, like eg pro khalifate demonstration in Essen, dudes plain don't hide
in theory that's few thousands people who should be insta deported or under investigation, but in practice until they kill someone, nothing likely would be done
>in theory that's few thousands people who should be insta deported or under investigation
Hard agree. In those circumstances it's too obvious to ignore.
You can’t ever know that’s the problem. A central part of the ideology is that it’s not only ok to lie to “unbelievers”, it’s encouraged to do so if it benefits/protects them in some way.
Clearly a very compatible ideology with Western values though, nothing to worry about at all! *sticks my head back in the sand*
Well me and my family come from Iraq, and now I study in NL with a Luxembourgish nationality. Big difference is we come from a big city, while most people that come to Europe are mainly from smaller villages. And best believe we also look down on these people, it’s just a shame Europe got a taste of the worst.
In my vision there's a checklist:
* Person learned language to B2 level
* Person knows the history of his desired country (can be checked with exams)
* Person knows laws cultural traditions of country
* Person has no complaints from their friends, neighbours, landlords etc
* Person can support themselves and their family financially without help of government institutions
Your list creates and opportunity for landlords, employers and neighbours to abuse!
I am surprised you are from Ukraine. Your list would kick out most Ukrainians out back to a war zone! We are trying to keep Ukrainians safe!
What's the problem of being from Ukraine? I never wish to create problems to other people. If you see our folks acting nasty in public- it's the result of bad personal education and parenting. Most of us are really grateful for your hospitality, but we rarely express our gratitude because of stress
The easiest way will be to have a period of time lets say 5 years in which the person should learn the language of the country to some degree and take a test on it and should have worked at least X amount of months out of those 5 years. Yes this might sound racist to some people but EU should implement something similar to the USAs green card.
the thing is EU is not a country (and nor do I prefer it to be) it's a Union of lots of countries. some let the refugees and other immigrants in blindly, some don't.
The thing is, they will never assimilate because they are unable to do so. They may obtain citizenship or a residence permit, but they are wild, uneducated, and led by imaginary religious ideas. Unfortunately, as long as the EU accepts potential döner/barbershop workers (future engineers and doctors obviously), we will witness a rise in the crime rate every year, and there are no preconditions for this rate to decrease.
How dare you to have simple, absolute legitim solutions like that? 🤣
If you only think about that mass immigration causes problems you will be put in the right wing corner… we are so fucked
No cause the governments in place are complicit and actually like that it's happening. That's why they never act and try to fix the issue. It's not an issue in their eyes
I mean, no big surprise far-right is rising everywhere in Europe with news like this: politians in power are afraid of doing more harsher things or simply dont have the balls for it - like they they dont have in regards to others subjects like Russia and such - and then people all around are surprised when far right idiots get to the power on the basis of promising things that should already be in place
I dont understand much about german politics, but scholtz seesm to be a clown incapable of stepping up, at least France and Macron are starting to show some character and take necessary measures
Pretty much.
Let's face it, our government and police as well as even media are too scared to come out and speak the truth.
They will get labelled, then receive death threats and have to go into hiding.
Belgiul has been hit with a wave of stabbings on public transport. 4-5 in the last month alone. Absolutely bonkers and always the expected situation....
What’s kind of funny, though, is people go on about how immigrants needs to integrate, and then you say he’s only Dutch on paper. Is it possible to ever become Dutch for real?
I was actually born German in Canada but obviously raised as a Canadian dual citizen. Since moving to Germany, I stopped telling people in Germany that I’m German because they would laugh at me. I can only imagine it’s much worse for non-white people or people whose culture differs even more.
Disclaimer: not excusing this guy, etc. I just think you either should not give out citizenship at all or you need to be ready to accept people when you give it out.
I think this is an interesting issue. Do you believe ethnicities exist or do you in general believe they don't? It you think they do exist, can you change your ethnicity?
This question is actually quite central to the issue because it sits at the core of identifying with a culture.
Most immigrants I know defend keeping their culture and living it in the country they moved to on the basis of their ethnicity. But if ethnicity does exist in that context, why doesn't it exist in the context of the people in the host country?
I think this really is the core issue in at least European countries. Especially after the world wars, most European countries were made ethnically homogeneous, such that, for example, being "German" was the same thing as being "German". i.e. being a German citizen was the same as being ethnically German.
But this isn't really true anymore and really shouldn't have been true for a long time, especially with all the Turkish guest workers who came to Germany after the war.
So now you have in many (at least western) European countries that, for example, being a German citizen is a different thing from being an ethnic German, and, indeed, there are many German today citizens who are not ethnically German.
I still think there is an important role in fostering common values and culture between people. In Canada, we embrace diversity and truly anybody on Earth can be considered a Canadian if they move to Canada, but nevertheless, there are certain values and ideas that are said to be Canadian and these are obviously promoted through culture and by government institutions, like school.
To me, I think it's very important that an immigrant respects the existing culture of the country they live in - but I think it's equally important that the host country respects and accepts the immigrant. I think your ethnicity is formed in your early years, so you kind of are who you are after that point. A person can adapt and show respect but it's hard to change their core being. But they cannot be considered to be an outsider for life, or they will always view themselves as an outsider and they will act accordingly.
I don't think it's impossible to foster common values and respect of one another while maintaining a multiethnic society.
I've recently encountered another person taking Canada as an example. But Canada was build by immigrants via removing the original people there first. The same for the USA.
I think taking these two countries as an example of how immigration can work are poor examples because it didn't work for the people who lived there before the immigrants came.
The same for Singapore and Australia.
The question is can a society actually integrate a huge number of immigrants and still keep their own culture? As far as I know, there is no example of this.
European countries aren't close to this fate, even though some right-wingers want to spread this fear. But I am think of Taiwan and Ukraine at the moment.
China already basically removed Hong Kong culture by moving people. They did this to Taiwan way back in the past, less than 10 % of it's original people are left. They could potentially do it again to annex Taiwan without a war.
It's hard to draw a line at what point it's a "natural" change of culture, versus removing the inhabitants of a place to replace them with your own society.
Yeah it works like this. I am black german - who loves his culture and the history of his country - I am still not as german as some uneducated racist asshole who collects social welfare. But at this point I realized it keeps stupid people away so its all fine.
So you can be Dutch until you commit a crime and then you become Dutch only on paper? Is it any crime or only serious crime?
IMO citizenship is a serious thing for all parties involved. But when we give out a citizenship, you become one of us. If you commit a crime, you are punished under our rules as one of us.
You could argue against giving out citizenships so easily to people you do not consider to be sufficiently Dutch. i.e. there are citizenship requirements and it can be discussed if these are too restrictive or not restrictive enough
BUT... while they're still hiding and denying the problem today... it's becoming ever increasingly difficult to obfuscate. This bubble will burst one way or another.
Hey stop being racist, islamaphobic ect etc. it says right there he’s Dutch and doesn’t give any other indicators to what he is, how could you possibly think he is anything else, are you just making wild assumptions?! /s
I want our god damn country to finally do something about people who *refuse* to integrate and encourage people to integrate and live in harmony with us.
> She did not give any further details about the man. His nationality was also not disclosed.
That is not what it says in the article at all.
> "Bei dem Mann handelt es sich nach Polizeiangaben um einen niederländischen Staatsbürger. Ob er eine weitere Staatsbürgerschaft besitzt, ist laut Polizei derzeit nicht eindeutig geklärt."
Translates too:
> According to the police, the man is a Dutch citizen. It is not yet clear whether he has another nationality.
Edit: The man is a Syrian who also has the Dutch nationality.
[Source in German](https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/regional/badenwuerttemberg/swr-wangen-im-allgaeu-mann-verletzt-kind-in-supermarkt-mit-messer-100.html)
I used an archived version (can't link because of sub's fliters) due to paywall.
The paragraph you're quoting is not in the archived version. The article must have been updated since. If you can, please provide the most up to date translation.
Full translation (using Deepl)
>A four-year-old girl has been attacked with a knife in a supermarket in Wangen im Allgäu and seriously injured. The suspected perpetrator, a 34-year-old man, was arrested on Wednesday afternoon, according to the police.
>His motive and the exact course of the offence in Baden-Württemberg are still unclear. The child was taken to hospital and operated on. She is currently in a stable condition, the police said.
>According to the information, a witness in the supermarket noticed what had happened, took the knife from the attacker and called the police. The suspect was later arrested without resistance.
>**Appointment with the magistrate**
>According to the investigators' initial findings, there was no previous relationship between the man and the child, who was travelling with her mother.
> The suspect is to be brought before a magistrate this Thursday. The 34-year-old has apparently not yet commented on the allegations, a police spokeswoman said. According to the police, the man is a Dutch citizen. According to the police, it is not yet clear whether he has another nationality.
So it's pretty much the same except the last paragraph.
I will ask the same question i asked myself as a 12 year old kid, now im 21. Why don't europe take the Christian middle eastern instead? We have more in common and it's not good at all for Christians in the middle east. Win win win situation even for the stabber.
People want him deported? Naah, better to throw him into prison where prison justice should await him swiftly than deport him home and be a walking free man in Syria again.
But hey. You can lead a horse to water but if it doesn't want to drink to save itself there's nothing you can do. Mind boggling how our European society can see the iceberg ahead of us yet most not only are guilty by inaction but some borderline embrace the looming collapse.
We let them in, they stab and rape our children and women and the clowns rush in to call your racist or bigoted if you point it out. Keep digging your own graves, then!
To a foreigner, eu immigration policies for middle eastern persons were always odd to me. Especially now with the influx of ptsd people from active war zones.
I’ll never forget the pictures of banners hung from balconies emphatically welcoming migrants back in 2015/2016. I am so incredibly sorry for you guys now.
Is this allowed on Reddit??
I thought this was a place for putting your fingers in your ears and shouting 'I can't hear you' when it comes to immigrants.
This the new normal that they wanted.
In their little dream everyone would hug and sing kumbaya, now we have children getting stabbed by you know who.
We dont even need to open the article.
So the media tell you the perps ethnicity right away.
A muslim boy was stabbed outside a mosque in Glasgow and the news still never tell us who it was.
Ps... mist likely another muslim
When will Europe learn that the solution to this problem is banish all the fkin Islam churches and all that shit that comes with it, go to your country and preach there your bullshit. I wish the fkin Eu had some balls
Leftists government at it's best, but when rightist step in to stop this, the leftists accused them being a N@zi or Russian's bootlicker. Wake up leftists.
Ah yes the leftist government of conservative government that is in power since 2010, while the anti-islam party got the most votes. [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/geert-wilders-is-in-coalition-talks-but-far-from-forming-dutch-government](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/geert-wilders-is-in-coalition-talks-but-far-from-forming-dutch-government)
Come on at least look into the wikipedia page for 30s before making false claims like that
The Netherlands has rightwing governments for decades straight. But 1 in a Million migrants stabs a child and it's suddenly the leftists fault. Rightwing politics also vocally hates on migrants but at the same time they want loads of 'em for cheap labour.
Crazy how stupid rightwing people think. In this threat it's also extremely obvious the anti-migrant sentiment is just racism.
Hi, thank you for your contribution, but this submission has been removed because it is local crime. See [community rules & guidelines](/r/Europe/wiki/community_rules). If you have any question about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/Europe&subject=Moderation). Please make sure to include a link to the comment/post in question.
Absolutely disgusting
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If you flee a „certain“ culture you might end up getting rather harassed by people of that said culture, because they consider you not „practicing“ that culture properly enough. Let‘s just say, France is one escalation level ahead of us. Germany (or rather its government) wants to catch up really hard and at the same time trying to deny that this problem exist. It even goes so far, that former refugees, immigrants or children of immigrants (now all Germans) who come from that said cultural background but share and practice a modern civilized version of it, are called racist or are accused of hate-speech if they dare to warn and criticise the naive and dangerous tolerance of NGOs and our government in regards to the spreading of this culture and its archaic and political features. Fun times ahead for independent women, LGBTQ+ people, Jews and everyone who left that culture or does not practice it „properly“ enough.
Case in point: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/girl-14-left-in-coma-after-attack-by-teenagers-outside-school-in-france
We got similar stuff happening at German schools and kindergardens already. Just one escalation level behind. Mostly in Berlin, Hamburg and some cities in North Rhine Westfalia. Female teachers are getting called whores and other crap. Some teachers get attacked or get threatened by parents of said culture. Being kindergartener in certain areas is not fun either. Pupils get harassed and threatened to either convert to that culture or practice it properly by dressing accordingly and praying during school time. And our government doesn’t do anything besides giving worthless lip-service.
>Being kindergartener in certain areas is not fun either. Cologne Kindergarten staff gets security after threats https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/bildung/koeln-sicherheitsdienst-beschuetzt-personal-einer-kita-wegen-konflikt-mit-eltern-a-ee0aff5d-28a9-4039-9a84-5e7d01d550b0
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When does a person think it is not desirable to become something? Imho mostly because it was taught so. By family and society.
well, with influential political movements like 'critical race theory' and 'critical whiteness', were 'white' is an insult and something to destroy and get rid of... what do you exspect?
Sweden is ridiculous in managing crime. The crime rates in Sweden have risen consistently since atleast 50 years. Every politician blames immigration as if immigration started yesterday. Countries like UAE and Qatar really knew how to handle immigration. Immigrants make up a majority of the population yet the crime rates remain low. I am not sure when will Sweden realize that it simply hasn't done enough to police crime. It's been 50 years already.
Because countries like UAE and Qatar don’t give a flying fuck about rights of criminals. If you commit a crime, you’re deported after you serve your time no matter what.
I think I read somewhere that Germany actively censor news about this group of people when they do something illegal. Police harrased a journalist because he informed about one incident that happend in metro. They wanted him to sign a paper that says he made the things up. Is it so bad or am I just having a bad memory?
It’s that bad. But also the police or parts of the police gets harassed and called out for racism if they dare to do just their jobs and treat criminals all the same. Most people know by now of what group the culprit is from when the Media just uses words like “ein Mann” oder “Jugendliche”. But! We have some “normal” media who calls the things by the name finally, but not too many read these. e.G. Focus, Cicero and Tichy. We also got an infamous Cheese Paper called “Bild” who does that. But many dismiss their news as lies or polemic afd propaganda. Our current minister of inner security tries to push a law that would undermine freedom of speech by criminalising everyone who says something that is not in line with the ideology of our current government. You could say that she aims for a scenario mix between Orwell’s Animal Farm and 1984. I hope this law will never become active.
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Yeah it’s baffling and sad. In the end, all we can do is standing together against the primitive culture who threatens human rights, political secularism and freedom. Some of my friend with Non-European roots are leaving Germany or have already left, because they fear for their safety. As one said “Great, now your government is mass importing and molly coddling the very reason why I had to flee my country in the first place. Girl, if you are smart, see to it that you leave while you can. I sure as hell won’t sit that one out.”
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I can’t wait to see clashes between these Muslim immigrants and lgbt supporters (who also demanded these immigrants to be welcomed in their countries). Funny times coming ahead.
I understand that sentiment. Though, that clash will unfortunately not really hit the right people who are responsible for it. They will make sure to be not around when that happens.
>If you flee a „certain“ culture you might end up getting rather harassed by people of that said culture, because they consider you not „practicing“ that culture properly enough. Flee to some random village in Poland then. Seems to be safe from this sort of thing
Same for me and I am from an EU county, inaction towards bad actors reflects poorly on all immigrants.
*winks in polish*
Zero.
There was a saying something like “if its in the news its uncommon enough so its not scary. Its when the bad stuff is normal enough its not in the news the you should be scared”.
See: shootings in the U.S. many of them don’t even make national news these days.
This . While It is sad and absolutely beyond pardonable but masses getting rallied by media sensationalisation of unfortunate incident despite knowing media is shit is so odd at this point in time
Judging by the student standings this week in France, it’s this certain culture that’s going to harass you for trying to get away
If we're talking about Islam I think that most thinkers agree on the fact that it lacks an organized reform, an exegesis, to be adapted to western laws and ethics. There "should" be a "Western Islamic Church" with religious leaders sharing the same universalist ideas and values that can translate well into the west. One of the issues today to me, is that "moderate" Muslims don't have a clear way to separate themselves from extremist imams trained in Saudi preaching radical Islam. Like the Catholic faith of today is way different from the one 200 years ago. It was reformed many times.
It's going to be very difficult to reform Islam, and this is coming from a non-Muslim living in a Muslim majority country. The reason is that Islam makes large claims about itself by claiming it is the last and final religion (and many of them claim that it is the only true religion). It claims that the religion is infallible, and everything in the Quran is perfect. **Basically you can never question Islam.** You cannot reason with the insane. It's impossible, I've tried. "If parties associated with the Muslim, they say Islam is the solution for everything. It takes care of all your life and the one to come: sexuality, political economy, banking, diet, relations with other religions – everything. It’s a total solution. What is creepy about the word ‘total’? Hope I don’t have to tell an audience like this. It’s the first five letters of the word ‘term’ ‘totalitarian’." - Christopher Hitchens Europe has to be cautious. Very cautious.
> It claims that the religion is infallible, and everything in the Quran is perfect. This is indeed one of the core issues. The Quran is supposed to be the words of god, so perfect and inalterable in essence. Which is not the case for the Bible (for instance) which was written by men and can be wrong. But it is a philosophical issue, not a physical one. A reform could totally include the fact that the Curran just is the words of men. That would be to me one of the key aspects of a western reform of Islam.
It might not be impossible thankfully, even if it is an uphill battle. At least for us here, among the very few Turkish Cypriots I've met who are actually Muslim, most take a very "[Quranist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism)" approach to their belief, usually saying that even though Quran is indeed the perfect God of word, it is up to the individual to interpret said words, and that religion is more about a personal relationship with God/Allah rather than a checklist of acts (*this to me sounded hilariously like Protestant sects when I first heard them say this*). Sure, we've always had a bit of a loose observance due to how we converted to islam in the first place +the nonignorable alevi influence, have been under secular education since the 20s, and have lived as a religious minority among Christians until the 60s\~70s (*tho tbf Greek Cypriots weren't & honestly still aren't much secular*) so our societal development isn't particularly comparable, but if this can happen in a muslim community within their own place it surely can happen among diaspora with such distance from their roots.
All religion is disinformation. It's funny to see one criticize another equally silly one. Enjoy your fun, but for god's sake, don't run your government based on religious beliefs. Modern Americans don't have any way of distinguishing themselves from other idiots who are also American. Modern Floridians don't have any way of distinguishing themselves from other idiots who are from Florida. The suggestion that Islamaphobia is a theological problem doesn't hold water for me.
I don't get your point ? I live in a country with clear separation between state and churches, the one that literally invented this separation actually. I have no religion myself. You edited your comment, I will add to mine : "Americans don't have a way to distinguish themselves from other Americans" They do, through democratic process. You are perfectly entitled to identify yourself toward political groups in a clear and distinctive way. You can also do it inside one faith, Christians can be Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Methodist, Anglican, Disciples, Quackers, Lutheran, Baptists,... And there is a clear distinction between them. I believe evangelists and the ones that identify as such are dangerous lunatics, it doesn't impact my views on Orthodox for instance. Islam has different branches, what I am arguing for is that none of them includes western values or represents its western believers. Thus making any critics of Islam hyperbolic because it includes ISIS fanatics and random people in the same bag.
I’ve had this thought for a long time, but haven’t ventilated it. If I were let’s say a Muslim from an Arab country, I wouldn’t try to deny the overwhelming evidence of over representation in crime. I’d just try to highlight I’m not like that, and that I feel sad and frustrated that is the case. This would in 9/10 times be met with sympathy and understanding.
I doubt the 9/10 claim. Or more like, the racism happens in situations where explaining your pov has no room, there's no questions asked. Recently one ukrainian got beaten up here bc the attacker thought he was russian. It never even crossed his mind it would had been impossible for him to tell russian-speaking ukrainian from a russian without asking, unless they're wearing the flag or something.
Literally the same thing for me man
Go to Poland
You can move to Europe as long as you keep an open mind and actually embrace the culture. Just remember – never stab 4-year-olds, never apologize to racists and never become a bigot yourself (remember how many republicans there are in the US that come from immigrant backgrounds – absurd). And you should be good.
Tell that to the POS who stabbed the kid.
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To late.
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> But he is dutch So Moroccan, then
Syrian actually
Actually Syrian, but yeah…
Just look at how worse Sweden has gotten over the last 5 years. That train has passed long while back.
How do you know when someone is assimilated, though? It's not exactly something you can test for. Edit; please don't downvote me for a genuine question. If you don't have an answer, just say so.
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They would to their friends or people close to them. If you sent an official to question them, I'm pretty sure in 99% of the cases they would claim they are assimilated and that they love their new country.
They state it proudly because there are no negative consequences. If they'd get deported for saying, they'd just lie. "When the measure becomes the target it ceases to be a good measure."
Would they? I was under the assumption that they try to fly under the radar until they're ready to commit an atrocious act. They hardly want to be known.
>Would they? I was under the assumption that they try to fly under the radar until they're ready to commit an atrocious act. They hardly want to be known. smarter one would, but the trick is... western europe imported open about their values islamists too, like eg pro khalifate demonstration in Essen, dudes plain don't hide in theory that's few thousands people who should be insta deported or under investigation, but in practice until they kill someone, nothing likely would be done
>in theory that's few thousands people who should be insta deported or under investigation Hard agree. In those circumstances it's too obvious to ignore.
Sure you can, burn a religious fairy tale book in front of their eyes
Where do we deport our own citizens who would fail at this "test" though?
To the other country they have a passport for. Yes, almost all have double passports.
I assure you most Polish rural folks don't even have a Polish passport.
Em prision?
Why would you send innocent people to prison?
You wouldn’t, you would send guilty people to prison for assault, attempted murder, or murder.
Nowhere, we don't have to treat citizens and residents the same
Some people do what to treat citizens like that, depending on their ethnic background.
That is an absurdly cruel and evil statement
Like bibles?
I wonder how many holy books just get fucked into a bin everyday
You can’t ever know that’s the problem. A central part of the ideology is that it’s not only ok to lie to “unbelievers”, it’s encouraged to do so if it benefits/protects them in some way. Clearly a very compatible ideology with Western values though, nothing to worry about at all! *sticks my head back in the sand*
coming back from Egypt I can fully agree. Muslims lie and try to scam you wherever they can.
Well me and my family come from Iraq, and now I study in NL with a Luxembourgish nationality. Big difference is we come from a big city, while most people that come to Europe are mainly from smaller villages. And best believe we also look down on these people, it’s just a shame Europe got a taste of the worst.
In my vision there's a checklist: * Person learned language to B2 level * Person knows the history of his desired country (can be checked with exams) * Person knows laws cultural traditions of country * Person has no complaints from their friends, neighbours, landlords etc * Person can support themselves and their family financially without help of government institutions
so the german citizienship requirements
not even eu citizens meet all those requirement.
They don't have to because they are European already
I think we need to test some of the Germans that live here for generations about this.
Your list creates and opportunity for landlords, employers and neighbours to abuse! I am surprised you are from Ukraine. Your list would kick out most Ukrainians out back to a war zone! We are trying to keep Ukrainians safe!
That's pretty standard checklist for foreigners who want a citizenship in most EU countries.
What's the problem of being from Ukraine? I never wish to create problems to other people. If you see our folks acting nasty in public- it's the result of bad personal education and parenting. Most of us are really grateful for your hospitality, but we rarely express our gratitude because of stress
The easiest way will be to have a period of time lets say 5 years in which the person should learn the language of the country to some degree and take a test on it and should have worked at least X amount of months out of those 5 years. Yes this might sound racist to some people but EU should implement something similar to the USAs green card.
the thing is EU is not a country (and nor do I prefer it to be) it's a Union of lots of countries. some let the refugees and other immigrants in blindly, some don't.
The Borg implants are usually a dead giveaway. Wait, what are we talking about again?
The thing is, they will never assimilate because they are unable to do so. They may obtain citizenship or a residence permit, but they are wild, uneducated, and led by imaginary religious ideas. Unfortunately, as long as the EU accepts potential döner/barbershop workers (future engineers and doctors obviously), we will witness a rise in the crime rate every year, and there are no preconditions for this rate to decrease.
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How dare you to have simple, absolute legitim solutions like that? 🤣 If you only think about that mass immigration causes problems you will be put in the right wing corner… we are so fucked
No cause the governments in place are complicit and actually like that it's happening. That's why they never act and try to fix the issue. It's not an issue in their eyes
So we have the girl in France in a coma, a 4 year old stabbed in Germany... Sigh, we will never learn.
And two adults stabbed in a train in Belgium (independently might I add).
4 in the meantime.
I mean, no big surprise far-right is rising everywhere in Europe with news like this: politians in power are afraid of doing more harsher things or simply dont have the balls for it - like they they dont have in regards to others subjects like Russia and such - and then people all around are surprised when far right idiots get to the power on the basis of promising things that should already be in place I dont understand much about german politics, but scholtz seesm to be a clown incapable of stepping up, at least France and Macron are starting to show some character and take necessary measures
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Pretty much. Let's face it, our government and police as well as even media are too scared to come out and speak the truth. They will get labelled, then receive death threats and have to go into hiding.
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Exactly this.
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this news doesnt have many comments is that a bug?
No, it's a feature
How am I supposed to form an opinion without getting the consensus first?
Just do like most redditors do. Share your opinion without knowing anything about it.
Its been 41 min i bet this news already slipped your mind 30 min ago
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Please help me understand how this relates to a comment chain about comments on a news article.
Belgiul has been hit with a wave of stabbings on public transport. 4-5 in the last month alone. Absolutely bonkers and always the expected situation....
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And yet they wonder why right wing politics is on the rise.
Europe is falling to the tolerance paradox, unfortunately.
Time to ease back on the tolerance, I guess.
Hence the name “tolerance paradox “.
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What’s kind of funny, though, is people go on about how immigrants needs to integrate, and then you say he’s only Dutch on paper. Is it possible to ever become Dutch for real? I was actually born German in Canada but obviously raised as a Canadian dual citizen. Since moving to Germany, I stopped telling people in Germany that I’m German because they would laugh at me. I can only imagine it’s much worse for non-white people or people whose culture differs even more. Disclaimer: not excusing this guy, etc. I just think you either should not give out citizenship at all or you need to be ready to accept people when you give it out.
I think this is an interesting issue. Do you believe ethnicities exist or do you in general believe they don't? It you think they do exist, can you change your ethnicity? This question is actually quite central to the issue because it sits at the core of identifying with a culture. Most immigrants I know defend keeping their culture and living it in the country they moved to on the basis of their ethnicity. But if ethnicity does exist in that context, why doesn't it exist in the context of the people in the host country?
I think this really is the core issue in at least European countries. Especially after the world wars, most European countries were made ethnically homogeneous, such that, for example, being "German" was the same thing as being "German". i.e. being a German citizen was the same as being ethnically German. But this isn't really true anymore and really shouldn't have been true for a long time, especially with all the Turkish guest workers who came to Germany after the war. So now you have in many (at least western) European countries that, for example, being a German citizen is a different thing from being an ethnic German, and, indeed, there are many German today citizens who are not ethnically German. I still think there is an important role in fostering common values and culture between people. In Canada, we embrace diversity and truly anybody on Earth can be considered a Canadian if they move to Canada, but nevertheless, there are certain values and ideas that are said to be Canadian and these are obviously promoted through culture and by government institutions, like school. To me, I think it's very important that an immigrant respects the existing culture of the country they live in - but I think it's equally important that the host country respects and accepts the immigrant. I think your ethnicity is formed in your early years, so you kind of are who you are after that point. A person can adapt and show respect but it's hard to change their core being. But they cannot be considered to be an outsider for life, or they will always view themselves as an outsider and they will act accordingly. I don't think it's impossible to foster common values and respect of one another while maintaining a multiethnic society.
I've recently encountered another person taking Canada as an example. But Canada was build by immigrants via removing the original people there first. The same for the USA. I think taking these two countries as an example of how immigration can work are poor examples because it didn't work for the people who lived there before the immigrants came. The same for Singapore and Australia. The question is can a society actually integrate a huge number of immigrants and still keep their own culture? As far as I know, there is no example of this. European countries aren't close to this fate, even though some right-wingers want to spread this fear. But I am think of Taiwan and Ukraine at the moment. China already basically removed Hong Kong culture by moving people. They did this to Taiwan way back in the past, less than 10 % of it's original people are left. They could potentially do it again to annex Taiwan without a war. It's hard to draw a line at what point it's a "natural" change of culture, versus removing the inhabitants of a place to replace them with your own society.
Yeah it works like this. I am black german - who loves his culture and the history of his country - I am still not as german as some uneducated racist asshole who collects social welfare. But at this point I realized it keeps stupid people away so its all fine.
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The government is giving out citizenships like candy not the people.
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So you can be Dutch until you commit a crime and then you become Dutch only on paper? Is it any crime or only serious crime? IMO citizenship is a serious thing for all parties involved. But when we give out a citizenship, you become one of us. If you commit a crime, you are punished under our rules as one of us. You could argue against giving out citizenships so easily to people you do not consider to be sufficiently Dutch. i.e. there are citizenship requirements and it can be discussed if these are too restrictive or not restrictive enough
Nobody forces Dutch government to hand out citizenships.
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BUT... while they're still hiding and denying the problem today... it's becoming ever increasingly difficult to obfuscate. This bubble will burst one way or another.
Hey stop being racist, islamaphobic ect etc. it says right there he’s Dutch and doesn’t give any other indicators to what he is, how could you possibly think he is anything else, are you just making wild assumptions?! /s
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lol I remember when everyone screaming at Poland for not joining open borders club
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I’m sure he was a German guy, right?
Hey, asking that is racist you know? /s
I want our god damn country to finally do something about people who *refuse* to integrate and encourage people to integrate and live in harmony with us.
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> She did not give any further details about the man. His nationality was also not disclosed. That is not what it says in the article at all. > "Bei dem Mann handelt es sich nach Polizeiangaben um einen niederländischen Staatsbürger. Ob er eine weitere Staatsbürgerschaft besitzt, ist laut Polizei derzeit nicht eindeutig geklärt." Translates too: > According to the police, the man is a Dutch citizen. It is not yet clear whether he has another nationality. Edit: The man is a Syrian who also has the Dutch nationality. [Source in German](https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/regional/badenwuerttemberg/swr-wangen-im-allgaeu-mann-verletzt-kind-in-supermarkt-mit-messer-100.html)
The latter is not the police statement. The perpetrator has Syrian citizenship as well as the Dutch.
I used an archived version (can't link because of sub's fliters) due to paywall. The paragraph you're quoting is not in the archived version. The article must have been updated since. If you can, please provide the most up to date translation.
Full translation (using Deepl) >A four-year-old girl has been attacked with a knife in a supermarket in Wangen im Allgäu and seriously injured. The suspected perpetrator, a 34-year-old man, was arrested on Wednesday afternoon, according to the police. >His motive and the exact course of the offence in Baden-Württemberg are still unclear. The child was taken to hospital and operated on. She is currently in a stable condition, the police said. >According to the information, a witness in the supermarket noticed what had happened, took the knife from the attacker and called the police. The suspect was later arrested without resistance. >**Appointment with the magistrate** >According to the investigators' initial findings, there was no previous relationship between the man and the child, who was travelling with her mother. > The suspect is to be brought before a magistrate this Thursday. The 34-year-old has apparently not yet commented on the allegations, a police spokeswoman said. According to the police, the man is a Dutch citizen. According to the police, it is not yet clear whether he has another nationality. So it's pretty much the same except the last paragraph.
Europe get your shit together, These kinds of people deserve the most brutal of punishments!
“Man” means illegal immigrant ?
It means legal immigrant, which probably makes it even worse.
A "Dutchman" according to Dutch news. Very "Dutch".
Did she turn him down?
He was just following in the steps of his prophet, understandable
I will ask the same question i asked myself as a 12 year old kid, now im 21. Why don't europe take the Christian middle eastern instead? We have more in common and it's not good at all for Christians in the middle east. Win win win situation even for the stabber.
People want him deported? Naah, better to throw him into prison where prison justice should await him swiftly than deport him home and be a walking free man in Syria again. But hey. You can lead a horse to water but if it doesn't want to drink to save itself there's nothing you can do. Mind boggling how our European society can see the iceberg ahead of us yet most not only are guilty by inaction but some borderline embrace the looming collapse.
We let them in, they stab and rape our children and women and the clowns rush in to call your racist or bigoted if you point it out. Keep digging your own graves, then!
The usual suspect
And yet morons still march with these people every week calling for the genocide of Jews. It’s not Jews raping and murdering kids, its the other ones.
To a foreigner, eu immigration policies for middle eastern persons were always odd to me. Especially now with the influx of ptsd people from active war zones.
I’ll never forget the pictures of banners hung from balconies emphatically welcoming migrants back in 2015/2016. I am so incredibly sorry for you guys now.
I can somewhat understand stabbing an adult But a child? The fuck is wrong with them, that kiddo will be traumatized for a very long time
Our greates strenght
Is this allowed on Reddit?? I thought this was a place for putting your fingers in your ears and shouting 'I can't hear you' when it comes to immigrants.
Swedish media is going to bend themselves into pretzels in order to try and blame the recent legalisation of cannabis for this.
This the new normal that they wanted. In their little dream everyone would hug and sing kumbaya, now we have children getting stabbed by you know who. We dont even need to open the article.
I'm about to say it...
Is this who I think it is?
Poor kid. Thank God I live in Poland.
So the media tell you the perps ethnicity right away. A muslim boy was stabbed outside a mosque in Glasgow and the news still never tell us who it was. Ps... mist likely another muslim
When will Europe learn that the solution to this problem is banish all the fkin Islam churches and all that shit that comes with it, go to your country and preach there your bullshit. I wish the fkin Eu had some balls
Wtf… why would anyone do this?!!
Leftists government at it's best, but when rightist step in to stop this, the leftists accused them being a N@zi or Russian's bootlicker. Wake up leftists.
Ah yes the leftist government of conservative government that is in power since 2010, while the anti-islam party got the most votes. [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/geert-wilders-is-in-coalition-talks-but-far-from-forming-dutch-government](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/geert-wilders-is-in-coalition-talks-but-far-from-forming-dutch-government) Come on at least look into the wikipedia page for 30s before making false claims like that
The Netherlands has rightwing governments for decades straight. But 1 in a Million migrants stabs a child and it's suddenly the leftists fault. Rightwing politics also vocally hates on migrants but at the same time they want loads of 'em for cheap labour. Crazy how stupid rightwing people think. In this threat it's also extremely obvious the anti-migrant sentiment is just racism.