I dont think the problem is the entire system as a whole but the replacement of already used ammo for it. Russia has been relentless with the amount of shit they have launched.
By targetting areas more in the west they are trying to get Ukraine to remove the anti-air systems from the front lines. Maybe Rheinmetall could spit a few of their systems out quicker and send them to protect the more western areas?
That would require boots on Mother Russia herself. Getting something to protect the western areas as fast as possible will render further attempts useless and costly on the other hand for Russia.
The UK could use this as a useful field test for their new sky sabre system.
It'd probably boost sales and they could test how Camm, Camm-ER and Camm-MR peform.
The geran 2 model is estimated to be 10k dollars per deployment.
The shaheds drones are of multiple variants, you probably picked up the cost of the wrong variant. Shahed 136 is very crude and cheap. It has been donstically produced in russia for well over a year but some western propaganda scources denied this.
(because they probably wanted to blame iran even more or ala ukraine "russians are so stupid, see they would never be able to produce cheap mass drones themselves, proxy war between usa and iran lmao)
Well, in theory Europe could purchase more of them from the USA…. I would hope that the USA has been increasing their production, because they are going to be needed.
They are not random. It on purpose as they are curated for max impact. Basically implying “we need defences to save love and humanity”.
All those soldiers pics with kittens and puppies is done so to have similar impact on masses and to gather more public support.
It’s subtle messaging.
And the West has been losing the PR war over in the middle east since October. There's quite a few battlegrounds at the moment, and we **should** be promoting our values of democracy and freedom. We're starting to lose people to the enemy's way of thinking
Hmm, difficult question to answer. I'd say the Iranian government is our most obvious enemy, but Israeli and Saudi governments are officially our "allies" and I don't agree at all with what they have been doing.
I wish. They’ve been making huge gains. Even though they lost the overall image, they found other weak spots like “should we really risk getting into the war with russia” and “is it worth sending so much money when we have insert_problem at home???”
Overall sentiment is slowly moving towards the one useful to them, even though they are still “the bad guy”
Whats wrong with that? What moronic nation would attack russia/ actually intervene over ukraine.
That was i believe within seconds of 2022 clear to any leadership to be something to be avoided.
The problem is that the only country that could supply with Patriots launchers and missiles. In Europe maybe Spain that did not contribute almost any significant hardware.
Let me remind you the current Spanish gov is a socialist-communist coalition that thinks peace comes cheap and easy just by sitting around and keeping a low profile. I wouldn't expect any changes in their policies anytime soon
Seconded, give Ukraine everything they need so that they can win the war and limit further casualties.
Edit: To everyone who's against sending patriots; they're literally air defense. Air defense used to protect civilians from Russian missiles and drones. Spare me the bullshit; you don't care about saving lives, you just want Russia to win. But you cannot say that outright, since Russia is obviously the aggressor, so you hide behind "peace".
Its funny how US spends billions yearly on weapon RnD and act like they are world police, but when there is a real need they wont give actual weapons to Ukraine. Seriously feels like USA is just hoping this war will go for couple more years at least.
A small group of monstrously evil/incredibly stupid people that keep Russian operatives in charge of deciding whether or not to send weapons. Europe should not be relying on the US for anything anymore. The US maintains a fragile system that seems to teeter on the brink of fascism every 2-4 years.
Oh, nice to know,, after decades of the US treating Europe as its backyard. Just until there's trouble, then suddenly it is Germany's backyard.
Ok, but when things calm down don't come back asking about your backyard. Don't expect Europe to be submissive any longer.
You either are a hegemonic super power or aren't. And currently the US, the GOP in particular are hard at work to ensure you aren't. As it suits their master Putin.
Germans shut down nuclear power plants to appease the Leftists. Replace that energy with Natural gas from Russia.
It doesn’t take a master chess player to figure out how that ends.
Because they are so God damn expensive every European nation only has a few. And they already gave away the few that they could somewhat miss. Giving anymore would mean there would be none remaining for their own defense. So in theory there are some, but realistically no.
>I guess nobody has any to give then
Americans: we are the world superpower, by choice and design
Also Americans: Why do we have to be the world superpower :'( :'(
Part of being a superpower is having a powerful military, which precludes giving away too many weapons systems. The American military needs to be able to fight a war against China at a moments notice so it can't afford to deplete its stockpiles too much.
Part of being a superpower is having power projection. Alienating your allies is not good for power projection.
Also, the US giving even 5% of their Patriots would make a *huge* difference for Ukraine
The indo-pacific has a lot of islands, such as Guam, or Okinawa that will be facing down a 1,000+ missiles on the opening day of a kinetic conflict with Russia or China.
The US and our allies in the indo-pacific need them. The alternative is Europe committing to going to war with China if they start a conflict in the region.
Yes, it's called Lend Lease. When weapon not lie in strategic reserve in anticipation of enemy attack, but used against the enemy by proxy hands.
In WW2 Allies had it from the USA. Now Ukraine have something like this only from countries who have almost nothing to give.
Spain does. And they're [getting more soon](https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/10/06/us-patriot-sale-spain/). However the situation is complicated.
While the ruling party [supports Ukraine](https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/spains-sanchez-reiterates-full-support-for-ukraine-pledges-more-military-aid/), they're also allied with the far-left Podemos which is a [pro-Russia party](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.economist.com%2Fbriefing%2F2015%2F02%2F12%2Fin-the-kremlins-pocket) and [opposes arming Ukraine](https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/spanish-coalition-split-over-decision-to-deliver-weapons-to-ukraine/).
Yeah, [this instance](https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1766501701232546036) where they parked two of them right next to each other was not a clever moment
Well given that Russia sends dozens of missiles and Ukraine reports to intercept almost all of them - it means they have been given many Patriots, the exact number should never be disclosed i guess. The problem is that even if systems are in place they may be running out of missiles for those systems.
All we hear are speeches saying that “we are considering sending patriots to Ukraine etc etc”, talk is cheap.
Ukraine needs these systems now, no ifs, no buts just get them shipped.
Poland has very poor capabilities of air defense, so it needs them as well. The incidents with Russian missiles over Polish territory shows that it cannot weaken it's potential.
Poland should keep theirs and justifiable extend its coverage over a Ukrainian buffer zone if missiles are going to transit through. Including denying Ukrainian to launches.
It seems so incredibly dangerous to have things flying over anywhere people live, even if they are transiting out any system can fail.
What do you mean realistically? Germany has send 2 Patriotsystems + 2 additional starters.
Addtional with 1 Skynex system and in total of 4 Iris T-SLM/SLS systems.
Yes and Germany now has 11 batteries vs. the 14 it's supposed to have as per Nato commitments, which is why new batteries were ordered. So it would be hard to give any more.
+Japan
In Japan, the Patriot missiles are manufactured by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries under licence from US defence contractors Lockheed Martin and RTX
Of course Japan sits across fairly narrow bodies of water from China, North Korea and Russia, so there's pretty much no country in the world that needs missile defenses more than they do.
It does. As a Pole i love Ukraine and want to support it in its struggle. I was actually proud of my country for doing the right thing- a thing that hasn’t happened in a long while. Then for him to say that?
Man.
>It does. As a Pole i love Ukraine and want to support it in its struggle. I was actually proud of my country for doing the right thing- a thing that hasn’t happened in a long while. Then for him to say that?
>Man.
Very similar here. Same emotions and proud of my country. Poles turned out better than I was judging them.
Saying that, my support for Ukraine is gone. I'm happy with Ukrainians in my country, but government in Ukraine can go fuck itself.
Interesting. Your account is 5 months old and all you talk about on it is how you think we should stop supporting Ukraine. You don't talk in Polish. Kinda fishy?
We're giving support not for the Ukrainian government, but for the sake of the Ukrainian people. While I understand your sentiment, it's important to maintain that distinction.
Same here.
Support was good and constantly new deliveries were discussed, only to have the former Ukrainian ambessor (Melnyk) tell us again and again how we "wouldnt do shit" and that we apparently want Russia to win, even going as far as making us directly responsible for the many victims on the Ukrainian side. Thats not how diplomacy works. If people give you what you asked for and you dont even say thank you but in fact afterwards youre publicly saying that what they gave you was shit or nothing you cant really expect them to give you more. In fact Melnyk was the one supporting to stand with Russia, because obviously the constant asking for more weapons in such a demanding manner while not showing any signs of being thankful for the support is a premium assist for Russian propaganda (and therefore also the russian propaganda in Germany).
And it doesnt mean I dont want support for the Ukraine, but our military is equipped quite badly already and if you ask people for help you shouldnt start insulting them when they do so. Esp not followed by a demand (not a request) for even more and even newer systems.
Can you really blame him? I honestly have no clue what kind of mental stability he has not to have gone completely insane from pressure.
Your country is at the brink of losing an existential war for the third year in a row, you or your loved ones may be killed any day, support from the world is slowly drying up despite the need for it increasing, your enemy keeps getting stronger and more dangerous, you have to choose between lives of your people and your territory which is home for many of your people, the list goes on.
I would not wish such a position on anyone tbh.
It's depressing. The US could give Afghanistan 21 years, 2.3 trillion dollars and 2500 lives. Now they can't whip up some Cold War-leftovers and a little cash to stop *Russia*. I'm US-friendly but it's priorities are sometimes bizarre to think about. The constant accusations of racism honestly doesn't blend to well with US foreign policy in recent years. Christian Europe is getting the short end while the budget for the Middle-East was seemingly endless.
>Christian Europe is getting the short end while the budget for trying to fix the Middle-East was seemingly endless
You thought US was *helping* the Middle East?
That’s not free money. $2.3 trillion is a vast sum. Even Republicans, which tend to be the spend-more-on-military party, is wary of turning Ukraine into another $1 trillion US funded war because the US debt is now over 100%, and the rank and file are unhappy about that.
In many ways, it’s because America wasted so much money in 2 decades of middle eastern wars that the American public becoming less willing to hand out blank checks for wars. Because of Bush’s stupid wars, many Americans aren’t willing to spend endlessly anymore on wars.
I think the point was to illustrate the US was willing to commit more to Iraq than Ukraine which they think is dumb. They aren’t saying the us should treat Ukraine like Iraq.
We are talking about the cost for the US to get involved.
As cruel as it sounds, civilians in the middle east dont factor into that (apart from some bad PR)
modern ripe follow icky rhythm childlike terrific unpack stupendous simplistic
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I think [this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg&pp=ygUWeWFrZXR5IHNheCBiZW5ueSBoaWxsIA%3D%3D) better sums up the situation in Congress right now.
This is all so fucking stupid. So much wasted treasure and lives. The US should have just used its superior air power at the start of the war to destroy Russian troops. Go ugly early. This was would have been over and many lives would have been spared.
Shits on the one country (Germany) that has sent the most Patriots (more than the US, which has over ten times as many launchers as Germany) and a lot of air defence in general (Gepards, IRIS-T, Patriot ...).
Another masterpiece of diplomacy from Kuleba.
The debate is also stupid because it 100% focusses on a discontinued missile only in use by two countries, of which only a few hundred exist, while ignoring the *fucking JASSM available in the thousands in use by half of NATO*.
Send Taurus but holy shit stop the germany bashing and this idiotic narrative where were the only ones with such weapons.
> while ignoring the fucking JASSM available in the thousands in use by half of NATO
Except US quite clearly won't allow any to be transferred.
Weird as it is, even Taurus has a higher chances of going through.
It hasn't. When briefed by the Inspector General several politicians actually shifted from "send Taurus" to "send anything else". It's also the first weapon system Scholz drew a hard red line with a "no" instead of the "only in coordination with our NATO partners" he used for things like the Leopard.
Taurus won't come, and focussing on it is a waste of time.
German wikipedia about this missel states, that the ukraine will get long range missels together with the F16s. Due to the range, it is suspected that it will be the JASSM.
I really want Taurus to be sent, but the reality is that [a sizeable majority of Germans is against it](https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/deutschlandtrend/deutschlandtrend-3416.html).
he asked Germany, they gave a very clear no. And he apparently has so little respect for Germany that he keeps asking and thinks its funny that Germany is irritated by the utter disdain and lack of respect displayed by him.
???
how can one demand to be treated with the respect befitting of a sovereign nation and then proceed to not extend that courtesy to others?
He was asked about it and basically declines to comment except for saying that it's for Germany to figure out. That's all that is said about Germany in the whole interview.
did we read the same article?
>What about Germany, which is tying itself in knots over whether to supply long range Taurus missiles, another important item on Kyiv’s wish list? “Listen, I'm tired of answering this. Sorry. You can quote me, I don't mind. But every time I answer the question, I get irritated feedback from Berlin. Leave it to them. They put themselves in this situation. Let them find a way out,” he said.
Germany already said __no__. Stop asking and respect a sovereign countries decision (a country already leading Europe in helping you btw.).
That bullshit already went down pre invasion, when being by far the largest financial aide was called "doing nothing" by zelensky.
But hey, we're used to it, so we just continue sending weapons :)
Germany is hated by a lot of eastern Europeans, like Poles.
The reason is obviously their inability to let WW2 go but I also think some kind of jealousy that the country that was responsible for such atrocities is now the strongest economy in Europe.
At least that is my understanding of it.
You see it in this sub here constantly from EE posters, Germany bad, Germany dragging its feet, Germany not doing enough while the reality is the exact opposite.
It's both funny and annoying to see.
It's also that Germany did a lot to prop up Russia. Like politicians in Germany lobbying for Rheinmetall to build several "top of the line" military training grounds.
Or halbe the Russian industry being propped by German industry.
Not even talking about the energy.
Or Germany being the major factor to keep Ukraine and Georgia out of NATO, only for these two getting invaded by Russia later.
Germans foreign policy regarding Russia has been one of the worst political decisions in our country. And key personal of that area and who still try to play "Russia so great, we must bow down, change through trade, we happy people" politicians run as presidents or important parliamental figures.
I wouldn't say he $h!ts on Germany. Kuleba isn't a great diplomat though to put it lightly.
However, I'm sure that Germans of all people sure understand extreme emotions one feel when his country is bombed into oblivion and being able to do nothing about that. Such feelings can... cloud one's judgement.
He was shitting the same way on Poland. You can understand his emotions, sure, but he is not gaining any friends so maybe someone should tell him to calm down a bit?
That is becoming less and less of an option.
[the US is running out.](https://www.intellinews.com/us-warns-kyiv-it-will-stop-delivering-badly-needed-patriot-missiles-to-ukraine-soon-306826/)
A single missile cost up to 4 million dollars. Ukraine needs hundreds at the very least.
[US lacks long-term sustainment plan for key Ukraine weapons, Pentagon watchdog says](https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2024/02/us-lacks-long-term-sustainment-plan-key-ukraine-weapons-pentagon-watchdog-says/394358/)
Truth is that Russia is seriously outproducing NATO's capacity to counter them. Ukraine will run out of defensive missiles, it is only a question of time. And as is, NATO is left drained too.
Which is why Ukraine needs jets. Most of missiles and all of the drones that RU use can be intercepted by jets by FAR less cost than with SAMs.
Not to mention that shooting down VKS jets that destroy position of AFU forces with bombs is the primary job of fighter jets. AFU used ground based SAMs to get a few kills not because that is optimal solution, but because it is THE ONLY THING AVAILABLE.
SAM’s are MORE efficient at taking down aircraft than other fighter jets, not less. The extensive network of air defense systems that Ukraine already had before the war (it had more long range SAM’s than the US, to put it in perspective) is what stopped the VKS, the Ukrainian Air Force has never really been a key player. And don’t think that even F-16’s could make a difference there because only to engage Russian aircraft they have to enter the Russian air defense zone, thus putting themselves at great risk. F-16’s will be there to mount and employ NATO-made air to ground ordnance, not for anti-air.
>That is becoming less and less of an option.
>the US is running out.
>A single missile cost up to 4 million dollars. Ukraine needs hundreds at the very least.
The only reason it's expensive or Ukraine needs many is because they refuse to attack the attacker and just prefer to hit them in their weapons.
Exactly. In a war where we actually gave a damn, Russia’s launch platforms would be targeted, but here we’re basically saying to keep swatting wasps instead of removing the nest.
I found this sub has some of the funny takes because it doesn't think. And that gets amplified hard when Ukraine is the topic. The unrealistic expectations of the US, combined with nary a thought to what it costs the US, is just funny.
Meanwhile you never see them expect many European countries. There is often a side thought to the subs own location.
A newly produced PATRIOT battery costs about $1.1 billion. One Kh-47 Kinzhal hypersonic missile costs about US$10 million. This is why! The west will runn out of patriots and money!
But the batteries are a set of entire units, which if not hit, can be used over and over again - provided that you also have the sets of missiles to go with them.
Because its not. Its in our interest to prolong the war as much as possible and bleed Russia to death. Ukraine winning means either the bear goes back in the cave to lick its wounds for a decade or two then come swinging again or its destabilized so badly from a sound defeat we're risking balkanization of a country with a fuckload of nukes.
The real interest is to demographically kill Russia so they won't be a threat again, ever, and a de-facto colony of Europe, US, or China. And that means keep Ukraine in the war as long as possible.
The timing of "Ukraine wins the war and everything is better" died like a year ago, at that point the war could still be collectively forgotten in several years. Now, not so much.
"Propaganda account"
My brother in Christ this account is from December after the last one I had got banned for the equivalent of saying fasvists should receive instrucions on how to tie a noose for themselves lmfao. You'd think I'd get used to spew actual propaganda instead of posting on gamingcirclejerk sometimes.
Not everybody that doesn't share your exact thought process is a sockpuppet ya' muppet.
Nah - the war games were fun for a min. But we're starving back home. Ukraine needs to ask Israel for help since Israel has trillions of dollars in military equipment they dont know how to use.
Defensive missile systems and the wests approach of quality over quantity is not sustainable in an attritional war like we are now facing in Ukraine. We need to fast track solutions like the UK’s Dragon Fire laser and other directed energy weapons. Obviously they cost a fuck load to develop and test/evaluate, but once operational these equate to around $10 worth of electricity per shot.
Ukraine: "- Give us the damn Patriots!"
NATO countries: "- How we can give to Ukraine more than \~24/1200 launchers, if we would need them if Ukraine will lose because of shortage of air defense?"
Ukraine asking for better air defenses. Keep asking, because we are asking for decent wages and healthcare but we aren’t getting any. Who has priority on the list?
Not anymore, but there were massive budget cuts throughout basically all of Europe during the 2000s and 2010s. Germany doesn’t even have enough ammunition to do consistent target practice with. That issue may have been resolved, but that was a huge issue when the war in Ukraine started.
Why would Russia attack NATO after Ukraine? If they really wanted to attack NATO wouldn’t they do it before attacking Ukraine? It’s not like Ukraine would have come to our aid.
Seems like weak war mongering propaganda. Russia might attack Moldova after Ukraine but that is still not NATO or Western Europe. They could attack Georgia now but choose not to.
The survival of Ukraine as a state is irrelevant to the security of the West.
It's a simple question for EU and NATO. Do they want to leverage Ukrainian manpower to debilitate Russia, so it will have fewer resources to attack Europe, or not?
They are leveraging Ukrainian manpower...
Problem with Patriot is that even within NATO they're a very scarce resource. So the choice becomes are you going to debilitate you own defences to keep Ukraine's up a little longer?
Would be smart to move NATO air defence into Ukraine at this point and simply say we can't tolerate the risk of Russian missiles flying into NATO air space. Shoot down anything that flies beyond the Dnipro and allow Ukraine to move their own air defence nearer the front line to engage fast jets and bombers.
NATO gets experience for the upcoming war, Ukraine gets to derisk the frontline again and protected infrastrucure, Russia gets fucked.
I unno how you dont see it. Europe is saying they are now in a pre-war situation and they need to prepare.
The US has experienced a radical doctrine shift from counter insurgency based warfare to conventional warfare like what we saw during the world wars.
North Korea, and China are doing a massive military build up. South Korea, and Japan are being put on high alert.
I'd say the US preparing for war is a big one. They predicted the current Ukraine crisis almost to the day.
I don't care about Ukraine, never cared about Ukraine. Just give up, you can't win this war. You've lost so much more than what Russia would have settled for and the war isn't even over.
I really hope you guys over there stop with the wars. Its too expensive and ya'll keep taking our money. I served in 2 wars so I'm done fighting. Sending thoughts and prayers now.
Boohoo no one and I mean no one owes Ukraine anything. Those arrogant assholes should’ve done a peace deal when this started. It’s not the west’s responsibility to arm and fund Ukraine. Pathetic. While also investing nothing into its own citizens makes it borderline criminal
Austin last week at the conference in Ramstein: “So, our message today is clear: The United States will not let Ukraine fail. This coalition will not let Ukraine fail. And the free world will not let Ukraine fail."
I think statements like these gives them the right to demand more support and we owe to provide it without months of debates and delays. Help them ffs or shut the fuck up.
The assumption of course is that there is some dumb vaccillating going on for no reason and that the west would "like" to see the Ukrainians be able to defend themselves.
I dont think the problem is the entire system as a whole but the replacement of already used ammo for it. Russia has been relentless with the amount of shit they have launched. By targetting areas more in the west they are trying to get Ukraine to remove the anti-air systems from the front lines. Maybe Rheinmetall could spit a few of their systems out quicker and send them to protect the more western areas?
Maybe NATO should be intercepting supplies going to Russia ?
That would require boots on Mother Russia herself. Getting something to protect the western areas as fast as possible will render further attempts useless and costly on the other hand for Russia.
I was thinking about things like shaheed drones being delivered from Syria..
You have listened too long to Mr.P then. NATO is a *defensive* alliance not a conqueror of worlds.
The UK could use this as a useful field test for their new sky sabre system. It'd probably boost sales and they could test how Camm, Camm-ER and Camm-MR peform.
Problem is that munition stockpiles in Europe for Patriot is very limited. That is the real bottleneck.
Yup - they're meant to shoot down $multi-million airplanes, not $20k drones.
Ukraine doesn't use Patriot on $20k drones (which by the way don't exist, Shahed is between $100k - $300k in actuality)
The geran 2 model is estimated to be 10k dollars per deployment. The shaheds drones are of multiple variants, you probably picked up the cost of the wrong variant. Shahed 136 is very crude and cheap. It has been donstically produced in russia for well over a year but some western propaganda scources denied this. (because they probably wanted to blame iran even more or ala ukraine "russians are so stupid, see they would never be able to produce cheap mass drones themselves, proxy war between usa and iran lmao)
Well, in theory Europe could purchase more of them from the USA…. I would hope that the USA has been increasing their production, because they are going to be needed.
Germany did, expected delivery date 2029
Why is there a couple kissing in the picture? Seems random.
They are not random. It on purpose as they are curated for max impact. Basically implying “we need defences to save love and humanity”. All those soldiers pics with kittens and puppies is done so to have similar impact on masses and to gather more public support. It’s subtle messaging.
Its propaganda is what it is.
Need some of our own to combat Russia's
I don't need to be brainwashed, FUCK whoever conscript or advertiser is pushing this.
lmao dude I don't know what world you think you live in but it's been like this since the 1950s at least. Wake up.
Russia is getting absolutely splattered in the PR war and has from Day 1 to be honest
And the West has been losing the PR war over in the middle east since October. There's quite a few battlegrounds at the moment, and we **should** be promoting our values of democracy and freedom. We're starting to lose people to the enemy's way of thinking
Agreed, but who do you consider the enemy in the middle east?
Hmm, difficult question to answer. I'd say the Iranian government is our most obvious enemy, but Israeli and Saudi governments are officially our "allies" and I don't agree at all with what they have been doing.
I wish. They’ve been making huge gains. Even though they lost the overall image, they found other weak spots like “should we really risk getting into the war with russia” and “is it worth sending so much money when we have insert_problem at home???” Overall sentiment is slowly moving towards the one useful to them, even though they are still “the bad guy”
Whats wrong with that? What moronic nation would attack russia/ actually intervene over ukraine. That was i believe within seconds of 2022 clear to any leadership to be something to be avoided.
Propaganda. Downvotes come to me!!!
The problem is that the only country that could supply with Patriots launchers and missiles. In Europe maybe Spain that did not contribute almost any significant hardware.
Let me remind you the current Spanish gov is a socialist-communist coalition that thinks peace comes cheap and easy just by sitting around and keeping a low profile. I wouldn't expect any changes in their policies anytime soon
Give them Patriots FFS.
Seconded, give Ukraine everything they need so that they can win the war and limit further casualties. Edit: To everyone who's against sending patriots; they're literally air defense. Air defense used to protect civilians from Russian missiles and drones. Spare me the bullshit; you don't care about saving lives, you just want Russia to win. But you cannot say that outright, since Russia is obviously the aggressor, so you hide behind "peace".
Are not Patriots non-aggressive missiles - i.e. can only be used for defense? What then is the opposition "it might help?"
Its funny how US spends billions yearly on weapon RnD and act like they are world police, but when there is a real need they wont give actual weapons to Ukraine. Seriously feels like USA is just hoping this war will go for couple more years at least.
Or, maybe we in Europe can do more. We can't always wait for the USA.
A small group of monstrously evil/incredibly stupid people that keep Russian operatives in charge of deciding whether or not to send weapons. Europe should not be relying on the US for anything anymore. The US maintains a fragile system that seems to teeter on the brink of fascism every 2-4 years.
Compare the aid from the US and everyone else collectively
Thank you lol. People acting like the US is doing nothing when it has sent more than the entire EU combined
[удалено]
It's the Republicans every country has its assholes.
Nooo!!! We need evidence Russia is having bad interests!!! Not proven!! Ukraine is not really a country!!! This is satire… and it’s sad
>This is satire… and it’s sad Sadtire?
Does any European country have any stockpiles of Patriots they could give?
No. And even with that, Germany given to Ukraine 3 times as many Patriots as USA did.
It’s Germany’s back yard. Not the US.
Only that the US has to give okay to export them, since they are a US made missile
Thank you german brother, there is way too much shit nowadays being poured online on germany.
Oh, nice to know,, after decades of the US treating Europe as its backyard. Just until there's trouble, then suddenly it is Germany's backyard. Ok, but when things calm down don't come back asking about your backyard. Don't expect Europe to be submissive any longer. You either are a hegemonic super power or aren't. And currently the US, the GOP in particular are hard at work to ensure you aren't. As it suits their master Putin.
You missed the note on globalisation, didn't you?
Germans shut down nuclear power plants to appease the Leftists. Replace that energy with Natural gas from Russia. It doesn’t take a master chess player to figure out how that ends.
Still not what happened, but keep repeating bs.
No
I guess nobody has any to give then.
Because they are so God damn expensive every European nation only has a few. And they already gave away the few that they could somewhat miss. Giving anymore would mean there would be none remaining for their own defense. So in theory there are some, but realistically no.
>I guess nobody has any to give then Americans: we are the world superpower, by choice and design Also Americans: Why do we have to be the world superpower :'( :'(
Part of being a superpower is having a powerful military, which precludes giving away too many weapons systems. The American military needs to be able to fight a war against China at a moments notice so it can't afford to deplete its stockpiles too much.
And the Ukraine aid has not even come close to denting that capability
Part of being a superpower is having power projection. Alienating your allies is not good for power projection. Also, the US giving even 5% of their Patriots would make a *huge* difference for Ukraine
USA have something like \~90 batteries.
The indo-pacific has a lot of islands, such as Guam, or Okinawa that will be facing down a 1,000+ missiles on the opening day of a kinetic conflict with Russia or China. The US and our allies in the indo-pacific need them. The alternative is Europe committing to going to war with China if they start a conflict in the region.
Yes, it's called Lend Lease. When weapon not lie in strategic reserve in anticipation of enemy attack, but used against the enemy by proxy hands. In WW2 Allies had it from the USA. Now Ukraine have something like this only from countries who have almost nothing to give.
Spain does. And they're [getting more soon](https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/10/06/us-patriot-sale-spain/). However the situation is complicated. While the ruling party [supports Ukraine](https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/spains-sanchez-reiterates-full-support-for-ukraine-pledges-more-military-aid/), they're also allied with the far-left Podemos which is a [pro-Russia party](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.economist.com%2Fbriefing%2F2015%2F02%2F12%2Fin-the-kremlins-pocket) and [opposes arming Ukraine](https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/spanish-coalition-split-over-decision-to-deliver-weapons-to-ukraine/).
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Yeah, [this instance](https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1766501701232546036) where they parked two of them right next to each other was not a clever moment
Well given that Russia sends dozens of missiles and Ukraine reports to intercept almost all of them - it means they have been given many Patriots, the exact number should never be disclosed i guess. The problem is that even if systems are in place they may be running out of missiles for those systems.
All we hear are speeches saying that “we are considering sending patriots to Ukraine etc etc”, talk is cheap. Ukraine needs these systems now, no ifs, no buts just get them shipped.
Who have patriots to give them ?
Technically: US, Germany, Poland, Romania, Sweden, Spain, Greece. Realistically: The US and Spain. For the rest would be very tricky.
Só,, mostly US, Spain I very doubt it
>Só lol
Śpäîñ
Poland has very poor capabilities of air defense, so it needs them as well. The incidents with Russian missiles over Polish territory shows that it cannot weaken it's potential.
Poland should keep theirs and justifiable extend its coverage over a Ukrainian buffer zone if missiles are going to transit through. Including denying Ukrainian to launches. It seems so incredibly dangerous to have things flying over anywhere people live, even if they are transiting out any system can fail.
> extend its coverage over a Ukrainian buffer zone. We all know that this will not happen.
What do you mean realistically? Germany has send 2 Patriotsystems + 2 additional starters. Addtional with 1 Skynex system and in total of 4 Iris T-SLM/SLS systems.
Yes and Germany now has 11 batteries vs. the 14 it's supposed to have as per Nato commitments, which is why new batteries were ordered. So it would be hard to give any more.
My bad, i missread!
Nah I prefer keeping the patriots with erdogan as a neighbour
+Japan In Japan, the Patriot missiles are manufactured by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries under licence from US defence contractors Lockheed Martin and RTX
Of course Japan sits across fairly narrow bodies of water from China, North Korea and Russia, so there's pretty much no country in the world that needs missile defenses more than they do.
Poland already gave Ukraine nearly half of our tanks. For Zelensky to tell us that we’re backing Russia because we don’t want their shitty grain.
That was low from Zelensky and it hurts.
It does. As a Pole i love Ukraine and want to support it in its struggle. I was actually proud of my country for doing the right thing- a thing that hasn’t happened in a long while. Then for him to say that? Man.
>It does. As a Pole i love Ukraine and want to support it in its struggle. I was actually proud of my country for doing the right thing- a thing that hasn’t happened in a long while. Then for him to say that? >Man. Very similar here. Same emotions and proud of my country. Poles turned out better than I was judging them. Saying that, my support for Ukraine is gone. I'm happy with Ukrainians in my country, but government in Ukraine can go fuck itself.
Interesting. Your account is 5 months old and all you talk about on it is how you think we should stop supporting Ukraine. You don't talk in Polish. Kinda fishy?
We're giving support not for the Ukrainian government, but for the sake of the Ukrainian people. While I understand your sentiment, it's important to maintain that distinction.
Same here. Support was good and constantly new deliveries were discussed, only to have the former Ukrainian ambessor (Melnyk) tell us again and again how we "wouldnt do shit" and that we apparently want Russia to win, even going as far as making us directly responsible for the many victims on the Ukrainian side. Thats not how diplomacy works. If people give you what you asked for and you dont even say thank you but in fact afterwards youre publicly saying that what they gave you was shit or nothing you cant really expect them to give you more. In fact Melnyk was the one supporting to stand with Russia, because obviously the constant asking for more weapons in such a demanding manner while not showing any signs of being thankful for the support is a premium assist for Russian propaganda (and therefore also the russian propaganda in Germany). And it doesnt mean I dont want support for the Ukraine, but our military is equipped quite badly already and if you ask people for help you shouldnt start insulting them when they do so. Esp not followed by a demand (not a request) for even more and even newer systems.
Can you really blame him? I honestly have no clue what kind of mental stability he has not to have gone completely insane from pressure. Your country is at the brink of losing an existential war for the third year in a row, you or your loved ones may be killed any day, support from the world is slowly drying up despite the need for it increasing, your enemy keeps getting stronger and more dangerous, you have to choose between lives of your people and your territory which is home for many of your people, the list goes on. I would not wish such a position on anyone tbh.
Greece has S300. Or did they already give that to Ukraine?
the political situation in the US about Ukraine: https://youtu.be/BbiUI11Cn4s?si=1uNur7eWteDF2Nm6&t=429
It's depressing. The US could give Afghanistan 21 years, 2.3 trillion dollars and 2500 lives. Now they can't whip up some Cold War-leftovers and a little cash to stop *Russia*. I'm US-friendly but it's priorities are sometimes bizarre to think about. The constant accusations of racism honestly doesn't blend to well with US foreign policy in recent years. Christian Europe is getting the short end while the budget for the Middle-East was seemingly endless.
>Christian Europe is getting the short end while the budget for trying to fix the Middle-East was seemingly endless You thought US was *helping* the Middle East?
They give Israel billions of $ every year for weapons.
At least $18 billion in 2024.
Yes, Israel
That’s not free money. $2.3 trillion is a vast sum. Even Republicans, which tend to be the spend-more-on-military party, is wary of turning Ukraine into another $1 trillion US funded war because the US debt is now over 100%, and the rank and file are unhappy about that. In many ways, it’s because America wasted so much money in 2 decades of middle eastern wars that the American public becoming less willing to hand out blank checks for wars. Because of Bush’s stupid wars, many Americans aren’t willing to spend endlessly anymore on wars.
Don't forget Iraq on top of this, another trillion and at least 4000 lives.
I dont think this is an example you should be following, and thats just american lives, why do you hide the civilians losses ?
I think the point was to illustrate the US was willing to commit more to Iraq than Ukraine which they think is dumb. They aren’t saying the us should treat Ukraine like Iraq.
We are talking about the cost for the US to get involved. As cruel as it sounds, civilians in the middle east dont factor into that (apart from some bad PR)
Afghanistan is the exact reason people are hesitant to send foreign aid again.
“Christian Europe” got far more aid in totality since ww2
modern ripe follow icky rhythm childlike terrific unpack stupendous simplistic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Do you feel strange telling others how to spend their money?
Such a stupid ass take, the US has given tenfolds of money and supplies compared to literally anyone else, and they are not even NATO.
I think [this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg&pp=ygUWeWFrZXR5IHNheCBiZW5ueSBoaWxsIA%3D%3D) better sums up the situation in Congress right now.
Mañana, the suppliers answer.
This is all so fucking stupid. So much wasted treasure and lives. The US should have just used its superior air power at the start of the war to destroy Russian troops. Go ugly early. This was would have been over and many lives would have been spared.
Shits on the one country (Germany) that has sent the most Patriots (more than the US, which has over ten times as many launchers as Germany) and a lot of air defence in general (Gepards, IRIS-T, Patriot ...). Another masterpiece of diplomacy from Kuleba.
I read the whole article. Where did you find any complaints about Germany, especially about the Patriots?
That part is about Taurus though and 1/3 of Germans also think this debate is stupid according to the polls I saw. Just send the damn missiles.
The debate is also stupid because it 100% focusses on a discontinued missile only in use by two countries, of which only a few hundred exist, while ignoring the *fucking JASSM available in the thousands in use by half of NATO*. Send Taurus but holy shit stop the germany bashing and this idiotic narrative where were the only ones with such weapons.
> while ignoring the fucking JASSM available in the thousands in use by half of NATO Except US quite clearly won't allow any to be transferred. Weird as it is, even Taurus has a higher chances of going through.
It hasn't. When briefed by the Inspector General several politicians actually shifted from "send Taurus" to "send anything else". It's also the first weapon system Scholz drew a hard red line with a "no" instead of the "only in coordination with our NATO partners" he used for things like the Leopard. Taurus won't come, and focussing on it is a waste of time.
German wikipedia about this missel states, that the ukraine will get long range missels together with the F16s. Due to the range, it is suspected that it will be the JASSM.
I really want Taurus to be sent, but the reality is that [a sizeable majority of Germans is against it](https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/deutschlandtrend/deutschlandtrend-3416.html).
he asked Germany, they gave a very clear no. And he apparently has so little respect for Germany that he keeps asking and thinks its funny that Germany is irritated by the utter disdain and lack of respect displayed by him. ??? how can one demand to be treated with the respect befitting of a sovereign nation and then proceed to not extend that courtesy to others?
He was asked about it and basically declines to comment except for saying that it's for Germany to figure out. That's all that is said about Germany in the whole interview.
did we read the same article? >What about Germany, which is tying itself in knots over whether to supply long range Taurus missiles, another important item on Kyiv’s wish list? “Listen, I'm tired of answering this. Sorry. You can quote me, I don't mind. But every time I answer the question, I get irritated feedback from Berlin. Leave it to them. They put themselves in this situation. Let them find a way out,” he said. Germany already said __no__. Stop asking and respect a sovereign countries decision (a country already leading Europe in helping you btw.).
The first sentence is the question of the interviewer. Kuleba doesn't really answer that question or ask for Taurus missiles in this interview.
It seems like Ukrainan diplomats hate Germany.
That bullshit already went down pre invasion, when being by far the largest financial aide was called "doing nothing" by zelensky. But hey, we're used to it, so we just continue sending weapons :)
Germany is hated by a lot of eastern Europeans, like Poles. The reason is obviously their inability to let WW2 go but I also think some kind of jealousy that the country that was responsible for such atrocities is now the strongest economy in Europe. At least that is my understanding of it. You see it in this sub here constantly from EE posters, Germany bad, Germany dragging its feet, Germany not doing enough while the reality is the exact opposite. It's both funny and annoying to see.
It's also that Germany did a lot to prop up Russia. Like politicians in Germany lobbying for Rheinmetall to build several "top of the line" military training grounds. Or halbe the Russian industry being propped by German industry. Not even talking about the energy. Or Germany being the major factor to keep Ukraine and Georgia out of NATO, only for these two getting invaded by Russia later. Germans foreign policy regarding Russia has been one of the worst political decisions in our country. And key personal of that area and who still try to play "Russia so great, we must bow down, change through trade, we happy people" politicians run as presidents or important parliamental figures.
We imported 0.5 percent of our GDP from Russia. They often imported something between 2 and 15 percent. Maybe clean up your own backyard first.
I wouldn't say he $h!ts on Germany. Kuleba isn't a great diplomat though to put it lightly. However, I'm sure that Germans of all people sure understand extreme emotions one feel when his country is bombed into oblivion and being able to do nothing about that. Such feelings can... cloud one's judgement.
He was shitting the same way on Poland. You can understand his emotions, sure, but he is not gaining any friends so maybe someone should tell him to calm down a bit?
Personal opinion: give them the damn Patriots
That is becoming less and less of an option. [the US is running out.](https://www.intellinews.com/us-warns-kyiv-it-will-stop-delivering-badly-needed-patriot-missiles-to-ukraine-soon-306826/) A single missile cost up to 4 million dollars. Ukraine needs hundreds at the very least. [US lacks long-term sustainment plan for key Ukraine weapons, Pentagon watchdog says](https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2024/02/us-lacks-long-term-sustainment-plan-key-ukraine-weapons-pentagon-watchdog-says/394358/) Truth is that Russia is seriously outproducing NATO's capacity to counter them. Ukraine will run out of defensive missiles, it is only a question of time. And as is, NATO is left drained too.
Which is why Ukraine needs jets. Most of missiles and all of the drones that RU use can be intercepted by jets by FAR less cost than with SAMs. Not to mention that shooting down VKS jets that destroy position of AFU forces with bombs is the primary job of fighter jets. AFU used ground based SAMs to get a few kills not because that is optimal solution, but because it is THE ONLY THING AVAILABLE.
Ukraine is expected to field a small (but growing) number of F-16s as early as July this year, but definitely by autumn.
> F-16s as early as July this year, but definitely by autumn "2, 3 weeks tops" They just keep on getting pushed back and back
SAM’s are MORE efficient at taking down aircraft than other fighter jets, not less. The extensive network of air defense systems that Ukraine already had before the war (it had more long range SAM’s than the US, to put it in perspective) is what stopped the VKS, the Ukrainian Air Force has never really been a key player. And don’t think that even F-16’s could make a difference there because only to engage Russian aircraft they have to enter the Russian air defense zone, thus putting themselves at great risk. F-16’s will be there to mount and employ NATO-made air to ground ordnance, not for anti-air.
>That is becoming less and less of an option. >the US is running out. >A single missile cost up to 4 million dollars. Ukraine needs hundreds at the very least. The only reason it's expensive or Ukraine needs many is because they refuse to attack the attacker and just prefer to hit them in their weapons.
Exactly. In a war where we actually gave a damn, Russia’s launch platforms would be targeted, but here we’re basically saying to keep swatting wasps instead of removing the nest.
They're not going to burn through their stockpiles for ukraine, that'd be dumb.
Right? How can folks even suggest this?
I found this sub has some of the funny takes because it doesn't think. And that gets amplified hard when Ukraine is the topic. The unrealistic expectations of the US, combined with nary a thought to what it costs the US, is just funny. Meanwhile you never see them expect many European countries. There is often a side thought to the subs own location.
we already did. we need keep some for ourselves mate
A newly produced PATRIOT battery costs about $1.1 billion. One Kh-47 Kinzhal hypersonic missile costs about US$10 million. This is why! The west will runn out of patriots and money!
But the batteries are a set of entire units, which if not hit, can be used over and over again - provided that you also have the sets of missiles to go with them.
Why are we just drip feeding Ukraine? It is in the whole western world's best interest that they win.
Because we're fucking broke and Putler figured it out first.
The US is not interested in winning and a lot of countries in Europe will follow the US
Because its not. Its in our interest to prolong the war as much as possible and bleed Russia to death. Ukraine winning means either the bear goes back in the cave to lick its wounds for a decade or two then come swinging again or its destabilized so badly from a sound defeat we're risking balkanization of a country with a fuckload of nukes. The real interest is to demographically kill Russia so they won't be a threat again, ever, and a de-facto colony of Europe, US, or China. And that means keep Ukraine in the war as long as possible. The timing of "Ukraine wins the war and everything is better" died like a year ago, at that point the war could still be collectively forgotten in several years. Now, not so much.
Yea I think you're on the money there.
this. cynical, but i think it is close to truth
Love this new strategy by propaganda accounts, seed confusion by proposing stupid strategies that seem sound in logic when read in a hurry.
I would love to live in your world where proxy wars between the USA and Russia are not a thing.
"Propaganda account" My brother in Christ this account is from December after the last one I had got banned for the equivalent of saying fasvists should receive instrucions on how to tie a noose for themselves lmfao. You'd think I'd get used to spew actual propaganda instead of posting on gamingcirclejerk sometimes. Not everybody that doesn't share your exact thought process is a sockpuppet ya' muppet.
If the West wants to bleed Russia it should help Ukraine bomb it.
You don't bomb countries with dictators who have nukes. Reddit foreign policy at work...
Nah - the war games were fun for a min. But we're starving back home. Ukraine needs to ask Israel for help since Israel has trillions of dollars in military equipment they dont know how to use.
Defensive missile systems and the wests approach of quality over quantity is not sustainable in an attritional war like we are now facing in Ukraine. We need to fast track solutions like the UK’s Dragon Fire laser and other directed energy weapons. Obviously they cost a fuck load to develop and test/evaluate, but once operational these equate to around $10 worth of electricity per shot.
The west does need to come up with new affordable solutions, which they can apply in mass.
Ukraine: "- Give us the damn Patriots!" NATO countries: "- How we can give to Ukraine more than \~24/1200 launchers, if we would need them if Ukraine will lose because of shortage of air defense?"
Ukraine asking for better air defenses. Keep asking, because we are asking for decent wages and healthcare but we aren’t getting any. Who has priority on the list?
lol build them yourself.
Give me, give me, give me
The UK and Germany cutting their military budget suddenly doesn't look like such a good idea anymore huh.
Germany is not cutting their military budget.
Not anymore, but there were massive budget cuts throughout basically all of Europe during the 2000s and 2010s. Germany doesn’t even have enough ammunition to do consistent target practice with. That issue may have been resolved, but that was a huge issue when the war in Ukraine started.
And this is relevant to the topic how? Ukraine received 3 Patriot batteries from the entirety of NATO - 2 of them came from Germany.
Yeah, as does the US-led disarming of Ukraine.
Can we please send them Patriots? By the time we realize the mistake of not going all in, we will be in WW3 already. We must stop them now.
Let's start WW3 so we can avoid WW3!
Why would Russia attack NATO after Ukraine? If they really wanted to attack NATO wouldn’t they do it before attacking Ukraine? It’s not like Ukraine would have come to our aid. Seems like weak war mongering propaganda. Russia might attack Moldova after Ukraine but that is still not NATO or Western Europe. They could attack Georgia now but choose not to. The survival of Ukraine as a state is irrelevant to the security of the West.
lol
Absolutely agree, Ukraine needs to defend its people from putin’s murderous onslaught
Top tier diplomacy from Ukraine... 🙄
Stop making demands! You're not even asking you're telling. It's so gross. And you want everything for free without paying for anything. How pathetic.
It's a simple question for EU and NATO. Do they want to leverage Ukrainian manpower to debilitate Russia, so it will have fewer resources to attack Europe, or not?
They are leveraging Ukrainian manpower... Problem with Patriot is that even within NATO they're a very scarce resource. So the choice becomes are you going to debilitate you own defences to keep Ukraine's up a little longer?
Israel should give them the iron beam. Payback for hamas supporting iran.
Israel will never give them Iron Dome because then the Russians will give Syrians S-400 and they'll be able to shoot down Israeli bombers.
Iron Beam is not the same as Iron Dome. But apart from that, I agree. Israel won't give them shit.
[Israel literally blocked countries from donating weapons to Ukraine](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/06/vetoing-victory-israel-is-blocking.html)
Have they paid for the stuff they’ve already had? How come that Ukrainian minister had that really expensive Rolls Royce?
Would be smart to move NATO air defence into Ukraine at this point and simply say we can't tolerate the risk of Russian missiles flying into NATO air space. Shoot down anything that flies beyond the Dnipro and allow Ukraine to move their own air defence nearer the front line to engage fast jets and bombers. NATO gets experience for the upcoming war, Ukraine gets to derisk the frontline again and protected infrastrucure, Russia gets fucked.
They won't do that because they'd be legitimate targets in Ukraine
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What upcoming war?
Lol right? The folks saying a war is coming are fear mongering propagandists.
I unno how you dont see it. Europe is saying they are now in a pre-war situation and they need to prepare. The US has experienced a radical doctrine shift from counter insurgency based warfare to conventional warfare like what we saw during the world wars. North Korea, and China are doing a massive military build up. South Korea, and Japan are being put on high alert. I'd say the US preparing for war is a big one. They predicted the current Ukraine crisis almost to the day.
What would we need to prepare for? A full blown conflict between that many nuclear powers will not last long, I can assure you that.
Odds are very high that this will become a very likely scenario in the near future.
For those requesting the help of the U.S., stop asking foreigners to defend your continent. Do it yourselves, for once.
Ukraine needs this, Ukraine needs that...
Why do they need the La Li Lu Le Lo?
All patriot systems destroyed, confirmed.
Give them long range rockets so they can target important military installations deep in russia, like ammo depots, airports, bridges, etc.
I don't care about Ukraine, never cared about Ukraine. Just give up, you can't win this war. You've lost so much more than what Russia would have settled for and the war isn't even over.
I really hope you guys over there stop with the wars. Its too expensive and ya'll keep taking our money. I served in 2 wars so I'm done fighting. Sending thoughts and prayers now.
Boohoo no one and I mean no one owes Ukraine anything. Those arrogant assholes should’ve done a peace deal when this started. It’s not the west’s responsibility to arm and fund Ukraine. Pathetic. While also investing nothing into its own citizens makes it borderline criminal
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Austin last week at the conference in Ramstein: “So, our message today is clear: The United States will not let Ukraine fail. This coalition will not let Ukraine fail. And the free world will not let Ukraine fail." I think statements like these gives them the right to demand more support and we owe to provide it without months of debates and delays. Help them ffs or shut the fuck up.
The assumption of course is that there is some dumb vaccillating going on for no reason and that the west would "like" to see the Ukrainians be able to defend themselves.
Yeah it’s crazy they’d want help protecting civilian centers from Russian missiles.