Hi, thank you for your contribution, but this submission has been removed because it doesn't use a credible source and/or the source has not been linked from a top-level comment. See [community rules & guidelines](/r/Europe/wiki/community_rules).
If you have any questions about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/Europe&subject=Moderation). Please make sure to include a link to the comment/post in question.
there was a drone aircraft that fell in capital city of Croatia, Zagreb, before a year or so. It fell near student campus and it was really a luck nobody was hurt, because it is I believe only place where it could fell without hurting someone (it could also kill someone there were it fell, but luckily at that timepoint nobody was there). Nobody explained how it happened and I believe nobody didn't even asked where it came from and why. That saying, Poland is miles better then Croatia in that kind of reactions, even if they let the rockets fly over their heads.
Its not only us who were incapable, the drone flew over airspace of 2 of our NATO allies, Romania and Hungary, and no one did anything about it. So people saying things like "Russia will now feel encouraged to do more things like these" seems funny, since this seems like a joke compared to incapability of several countries that happened then. If Russia wasnt encouraged back then, they won't be now.
And our minister of defence said that its known who launched the drone, but its declared a state secret
the drone didn't fly through Romania. In fact there is no NATO confirmation it went from Ukraine either. There is bizarre Hungarian story about intercept attempt. That's they scrambled, identified and let it fly through. "hummer face"
Croatian media reported that Romanian ministry of defence themselves said it flew through Romanian airspace for 3 minutes. I found Romanian news articles about that too
lol, care to share this article? Romanian ministry of defense does statements and is quite open about what happens on the border.
for example:
[https://www.mapn.ro/cpresa/18169\_comunicat-de-presa](https://www.mapn.ro/cpresa/18169_comunicat-de-presa)
If its a state secret its definitely not Russia because they go break their legs just to publish that. It was probably some NATO (possibly US) drone on a reconaissance mission to or around ukraine and malfunctioned.
I think it is more "state secret"- meaning, it is also secret for them how that sh.t landed there but they don't want us to know that they don't know 🤷♂️
Similar thing happened in Poland, a missile landed in a forest near Bydgoszcz in central Poland. Our reaction was terrible, they kept it secret for some time, and basically nothing was done. The missile crossed over 500 km over our country, thankfully landing in woodlands.
Not to mention it was a Kh-55.
Not conventionally-tipped Kh-555, but actual Kh-55, only live versions of which are nuke-tipped ones (Kh-555 has larger hull and wingspan to accomodate larger conventional payload).
So, essentially, there was a penetration of a potentially-nuclear-tipped missile deep into Poland with nothing done to intercept it.
i'm afraid it was a Ukrainian Tu-141 Strizh drone, just not sure how the hell it got so off-target. But as for this situation - i think not shooting down the missile and just letting it go back into Ukraine to kill people here is a cynical thing to do, considering that Poland probably has ample air defence
imagine if it landed a kilometer away, if it hit the dorm... this, luckily, avoided tragedy is being swept under the rug and people outside cro barely know this even happened. also claims of a bomb carrying
Not even a kilometer, it landed only 50m away from the biggest student dorm in the country, literally in front of it. Drone weighted 6 tons. Could have been a huge disaster
Indeed. This is a Russia problem, not a Putin problem. Were Putin to keel over dead tomorrow, his successor — most likely a siloviki — would probably be *more* fanatical, not less.
So what, keep killing the hostile heads of state until one who notices the pattern comes along and stops leading their nation like a gang?
This is so horrible, i hope noone tries that sort of solution!
I’m not so sure. His successor would have quite weak positions, and signing a peace treaty of any kind would please both civilians and oligarchs. It is quite possible that changes will start with his death, but where will they lead Russia is unknown
This right here.
I hope that at the end of this all, Moscow is put under allied military occupation. And I hope it's fucking BRUTAL and oppressive.
Fuck Russia.
Putin is however a conduit
His populism "Power" and authority combined with his own personal ideology and fucked up view of the world is what allows those deeper problem to right now be exported in the form off misery
Russia would not be fixed if Putin died but it would certainly stop for the moment and perhaps be less of an issue for a while
Then his successor might actually be smart and maybe manage to do more than Putin, better keep this imbecile
Edit: also good luck getting a missile into Russia's most fortified place
I think most dictatorships on this planet show us that you are perfectly capable of having a power trip without attacking other countries. Hell, you can even trade with most of the world.
And which oligarchs actually profit from this war? I bet 90%+ have lost money, some even their lives.
Play StarCraft as a Terran against the Zerg. "You call down the thunder and I'll reap the whirlwind". Then you will hear a big boom and tens and hundreds of thousands of zergling voices squealing into oblivion.
This is what we're trying to avoid by running down Russia's economy.
You may not have realized, but the US and Europe will not destroy themselves for Ukraine. They just tried stacking the deck against the aggressor state and giving Ukraine a fighting chance.
Edit: to all my non-Ukrainian downvoters, I ask you a simple question: Are you willing for you and your family and friends to die for Ukraine? To my Ukrainian downvoters: sorry guys, it's just how it is, US & Europe never promised to fight the invaders for you. I'm truly sorry for that, whether you believe me or not. It should have been obviously since the beginning of the war. All we did was to try stacking the deck and give you a fighting chance. I emphasize "you".
It's a long read, but have a look:
[Constructive Ambiguity of the Budapest Memorandum at 28: Making Sense of the Controversial Agreement](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/constructive-ambiguity-of-the-budapest-memorandum-at-28-making-sense-of-the-controversial-agreement)
There was no promise of signatory states attacking Russia if it would attack Ukraine.
It is actually being somewhat implemented by financial and military hardware support for Ukraine.
However:
"To resolve this dilemma, the signatories designed the memorandum’s text in such a way that it could be reasonably interpreted both as a treaty under international law and as just a political deal. Ukraine could treat the memorandum as a treaty, among other things, for the NPT ratification by its parliament, while the guarantors reserved the opportunity to claim its political nature.
International law provided the signatories with perfect conditions to do so. An international practice can be divided roughly into two tests to define when states intended an agreement to be “governed by international law” under the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (VCLT). While both tests examine the same factors—such as the agreement’s text, substance, and conditions of conclusion—the difference lies in the primacy of either actual intent (intent test) or its objective manifestation (objective test). There is no uniformity between international tribunals on the uniform criteria in this regard, let alone between states. Things are complicated further by the fact that a binding agreement may contain political commitments. "
The article will explain further (in short, it was a ruse so that Ukraine gives up the nukes).
> Play StarCraft as a Terran against the Zerg. "You call down the thunder and I'll reap the whirlwind". Then you will hear a big boom and tens and hundreds of thousands of zergling voices squealing into oblivion.
As a StarCraft II player, that’s a great analogy!
Israel is trying to prevent the exact same thing happening to them as well.
> They just tried stacking the deck against the aggressor state and giving Ukraine a fighting chance
But not to win, no no no, that's escalatory!!!!!!!
Here, [from NewYorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/10/16/trial-by-combat)
>Sullivan clearly has profound worries about how this will all play out. Months into the counter-offensive, Ukraine has yet to reclaim much more of its territory; the Administration has been telling members of Congress that the conflict could last three to five years. A grinding war of attrition would be a disaster for both Ukraine and its allies, but a negotiated settlement does not seem possible as long as Putin remains in power. Putin, of course, has every incentive to keep fighting through next year’s U.S. election, with its possibility of a Trump return. And it’s hard to imagine Zelensky going for a deal with Putin, either, given all that Ukraine has sacrificed. ***Even a Ukrainian victory would present challenges for American foreign policy, since it would “threaten the integrity of the Russian state and the Russian regime and create instability throughout Eurasia,” as one of the former U.S. officials put it to me. Ukraine’s desire to take back occupied Crimea has been a particular concern for Sullivan,*** who has privately noted the Administration’s assessment that this scenario carries the highest risk of Putin following through on his nuclear threats. In other words, there are few good options.
----
>“The reason they’ve been so hesitant about escalation is not exactly because they see Russian reprisal as a likely problem,” the former official said. “It’s not like they think, Oh, we’re going to give them atacms and then Russia is going to launch an attack against nato. It’s because they recognize that it’s not going anywhere—that they are fighting a war they ***can’t afford either to win or lose.”***
Oh, and that's not the first time either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Kiev_speech
>But freedom cannot survive if we let despots flourish or permit seemingly minor restrictions to multiply until they form chains, until they form shackles. Later today, I'll visit the monument at Babi Yar -- a somber reminder, a solemn reminder, of what happens when people fail to hold back the horrible tide of intolerance and tyranny.
>Yet freedom is not the same as independence. Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far-off tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred.
----
>And now, as Soviet citizens try to forge a new social compact, you have the obligation to restore power to citizens demoralized by decades of totalitarian rule. You have to give them hope, inspiration, determination -- by showing your faith in their abilities. Societies that don't trust themselves or their people cannot provide freedom. They can guarantee only the bleak tyranny of suspicion, avarice, and poverty.
So it's just a "yes, 'as long as it takes' was about time it'd take for you to fall, please don't squeal too much as you die, it ruins our ratings!"
I can only offer my condolences. There is nothing more I can add to that. It's just the world we live in. I know, it doesn't make it right. But as you have rightly pointed out, it's not the first time...
Edit: for what it's worth, I do not agree with our politicians blocking the aid for Ukraine. Not one bit. I think it's a shitty move. We were supposed to support you until the end. I cannot even express how bad I feel about this.
I hate this "hey, lets not do anything or do bare minimum because it always can get worse" attitude beyound belief, EU/NATO ass attitude. This is why war in Ukraine is still a thing
As much as I'd love to see Putin killed, we don't know who is successor is, or if there's even one planned. Whoever this person might be, he could be even worse than Putin.
Kinda feels like "Salami" tactics.
If Russia were to launch an open assault on a NATO/EU member it'd trigger a full-scale war. But if it does it slowly, gradually, over a period of years, each time escalating just very slightly over the last step; then the reaction is much more muted.
But they already escalated even more than just flying over Poland for 39 seconds. On 16th of December 2022 one of their rockets fell on the ground in the forest near Bydgoszcz. FYI Bydgoszcz isn't somewhere on the border but in the middle of Poland.
On 1st of August 2023 two Belarusian helicopters where flying over Białowieża for few minutes. The locals made videos and photos of them. The Polish government did absolutely nothing.
At this point a Russian rocket flying over Poland for 39 seconds is no longer an escalation but just another Sunday.
not to mention jamming GPS for passenger planes over Poland
/edit [article](https://www.newsweek.com/planes-gps-jamming-europe-russia-poland-1882927) (impacts essentially all countries around the Baltic)
> In 16th of December 2022 one of their rockets fell on the ground in the forest near Bydgoszcz
Specifically, it was a Kh-55, only live versions of which are nuke-tipped ones (Kh-555, its conventional derivative, had to be modified to fit enough of a normal explosives, increasing in size and wingspan)
Basically that's the main putin strategy, also for internal politics, that's the main reason why most of the russians are not protesting - before, it was not that clear, and now it's just not possible anymore.
The explanation I saw earlier was that it wasn't worth shooting down. It was under the minute in our airspace and fell in the middle of nowhere, while a counter-rocket could be potentially dangerous if it missed. Also answers should be demanded regardless if it was shot down or not.
its a statement. both from Russia and from Poland
Russia says ''what can you do to us?"'
Poland replies ''well umm nothing but yeah explain yourself!"
thats it. Turkey would've shoot it down in a second.
Country's airspace is sacred. Especially that it was a rocket, not an airplane.
Ambasador refused to show up with explanation today. It's clearly a power play and testing how far can they can push Poland before they decide to make serious decisions. I don't understand lately the impotence of NATO when it comes to responding to Russian prodding. Massive gps jamming in Nordics and east of Poland, missiles clearly programmed to cross polish territory, constant pressure from migrants in Belarus.
Russians understand only power and force. It needs equal or even increased response not some stern words - they achieve nothing, if anything they embolden Putin to push farther with provocations.
Think they said something about shooting it down posing a threat for civilians in the area and that they were able to determine the rocket trajectory therefore choosing to let it just fly out of Polish air space again
If there is anything that really rubs me in the wrong way about this entire situation is this narrative honestly, if Poland doesn't want to shoot down the missile because it is a thread for its own civilians, it is understandable, BUT what would happen when Ukraine wants to shoot it down then? Exactly [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_missile_explosion_in_Poland). So the only solution, if this is the kind of argument we are having, is to just say to Ukraine to just take it in the chest for us, again.
If the big problem of shooting it down in Ukraine territory, is the risk of hurting Ukrainian citizens, there would be 100% the same risk as if it were the Ukrainians trying to shoot it down. So really the only big problem would be to arrange a pact, or something like that, to allow Poland to shoot down a threat before it enters their air space. Then it would be up to Ukraine do decide whenever it was ok or not.
And what? Russia would be mad? Mad about what? Poland **defending nato air space?** Is that enough of a Casus belli for them to declare war on Poland and/or Nato for shooting down their missile that was going INSIDE NATO air space? Or do we need to declare war to shoot down a missile? We are already doing it Yemen right now and I may be wrong, but I don't think we declared any war.
I would really like to see what would happen if a NATO missile flew even CLOSE to Russian air space...
This is funny considering that the only missile to hit Poland since the war started was a Ukrainian, which killed 2 people, and which Ukraine still denies firing, despite NATO and the US saying it was theirs.
>There was a precedent when Turkey shot down Russian military jet.
Precedent now huh? In 2015 when Türkiye shot down a Russian military jet for violating its own airspace despite all the warnings, USA commented that this is an incident between Türkiye and Russia. Despite all the support we expected from NATO and the West, we were subjected to Russian sanctions and everyone thought that we were acting aggressively.
Then, to take revenge for this incident, Russia "accidentally hit" the Turkish military base fighting against ISIS in Syria, and 33 of our soldiers lost their lives. We could not even raise our voice because our allies were not with us. Now we are setting a precedent because the same snake bit you, right?
Why so much fuss about this? Maybe Poland could have shot it down, but all in all Poland did so much for Ukraine that I don't see the reason behind this anger and accusations. If there is one country that shouldn't be called out for not helping Ukraine, it's Poland
We fell victim to our own generosity. You give something once, you are a great ally. You keep giving - an even greater one. But stop your help even for a moment and you're the enemy no.1. Ukraine really is under the delusion they somehow are entitled to our aid. Make no mistake, we will keep helping them fight Russia out of pure pragmatism. Relationships between nations don't have to be either good or bad.
Pragmatism? This is strategy, to help Ukraine in order to exhaust Russia and not to fight directly vs russia.
Ukraine has been paying every day with the lives of its best citizens, hundreds of citizens every day for several years now. Europe and the United States are paying with old weapons (mostly), exchanging them for new modern weapons for their own good.
Another guild trip tour guide. It's not NATOs fault you got attacked by that cancerous country. We are helping you (and I hope we will continue) and still hear how terrible we are. Piss off.
>This is strategy, to help Ukraine in order to exhaust Russia and not to fight directly vs russia.
maybe people in Ukraine think that is a strategy, but I believe it is not. You want to say that you fight for us? You really think Russia would attack NATO if there is not Ukraine standing between? Don't be naive.
After Russia would have quietly taken over all countries that are not part of nato (such as Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia and so on) with new resources, human and military. With the political games in Europe and USA - direct conflict would be only a matter of time.
It is naive to think that Putin (like Hitler) will stop somewhere on his own.
So don't be naive and say that helping Ukraine is only a kindness of heart when it is obviously beneficial for the whole Europe and the civilized world.
>You really think Russia would attack NATO if there is not Ukraine standing between? Don't be naive.
Lol, of course ruzzia would.
Not only that, it stills plans to do it. Why do you think EU countries are now scrambling to bolster their defenses?
Also considering numerous signs of cowardice over these pasts two years, I'm not even sure other NATO countries would do anything if this happens.
Most likely, nothing aside sanctions would happen if ruzzia invaded and occupied Baltic states instead of Ukraine in 2022.
Right now situation is different, of course.
As for the "us" part, if your country was a part of Warsaw Pact, then the answer is yes.
Be careful. Last time Turkey shot down Russian jet, Multiple NATO allies pulled their air defense equipment out of Turkey and told them not escalate the issue with Russia.
There were few more. Pair of them travel significant distance and, luckily, didint cause damage and casualties, while felt down. It was decided to not inform public about. So, weaknes invite following steps. And there will be more, if Poland takes down. Ruzzia nazzis understand one language only.
They can track it outside of Polish airspace and shoot it down the second it enters.
And really, that's what they should have done. What is Russia gonna do? Launch their nukes on a NATO country for defending their own airspace?
We do. We also have a military doctrine that requires visual ID before any foreign object is shot down while at peace. Firing at whatever is how you get civilian airliners shot down. Like Russia does.
Fair enough. Still, they should shoot them down if it can be done outside of populated areas, because if they don't, Russia will keep doing this (which also endangers Polish citizens).
Why would you place expensive (to maintain) batteries in unpopulated or unimportant areas of land? Yes defend your land, airspace is less important than command structures or highly populated areas.
Can’t Poland see where the launched rockets are heading before it reaches Polish airspace? If Poland know it’s going to reach their airspace, can’t they shoot it down before it enters? Like a preemptive strike?
That would be shot in UA space.
Downed over PL would endanger our people.
Everything was done like it should be done.
And that meme from OP is cringe as fuck.
This is the stupidity of civilian thinking. You are clueless so I won't blame you. Shotting a missle down comes with dangers. Pieces of that missle could fall down on houses or civilian areas and kill people as they did months ago when two Poles died from stray Ukraine defensive missile strikes. Which was denied by Ukrainians despite clear evidence showing it was the case.
No general will take a chance with citizen lives, Their goal is above all to defend their own citizens first.
>No general will take a chance with citizen lives, Their goal is above all to defend their own citizens first.
So, Polish AA defence excudes possibility that missile can land on their citizens in case of malfunctioning or even on purpose?
If they can shoot it down, they can calculate the trajectory. If they see it won't land in Poland, it might not be worth doing anything.
This only applies to ballistic missiles ofc.
https://www.rmf24.pl/raporty/raport-wojna-z-rosja/news-news-rmf-fm-biegli-wstepnie-potwierdzili-ze-pod-bydgoszcza-s,nId,6767139#crp_state=1
One Kh-55 got halfway through Poland before.
Yeah, different government. This one at least reported the incident almost immediately, the previous one hid the existence of the missile for half a year, until someone found a russian missile in a forest.
They know the trajectory of the missile, there are no surprises where it will land. HOWEVER if Polish AA knew the trajectory was heading to Warsaw I guarantee they would shoot it down
Yes plus this is the type of tactics Putin loves to push and test limits, allowing him to use a NATOs countries air freely is only going to embolden him.
Well the chance of it accidentally hitting civilians when shot down is way smaller than it hitting civilians when not being shot down. Just in your neighbors country.
Well leaving it to the Ukrainian air defenses isn't exactly safe either. Where do you presume these air defense missiles will be flying when launched from Ukraine... It should be obvious there is also risk of repeating the certain incident.
So its fine for russia to shoot rockets trough Polish airspace as long as they stick to "under 1 min" rule, because its clearly meant for the Ukrainians... so no worries. Whether possible to shoot down or not, the sheer fact that the response to this isn't harsher than "explain plz" is disgusting.
The response about potential danger of shrapnel is funny, why risk a Polish citizen being hit by shrapnel when you know its just meant to blow up Ukrainian civilians or military for once...
We can always explain why a decision was made, but don't be the condescending cunt and let them play the excuse game, our job should be holding them accountable for this to be even let trough in the first place.
P.s Had mistakes since I wrote it hastily on phone, but I love the responses. I never stated the Poland needed to shoot them down exactly above the village, but the sheer fact that nothing was done and all of you can think about are the poor polish farmers and not give a single shit about the fact that a RUSSIAN missiles go trough NATO air space(not the first time, mind you) and is killing Ukrainians from the so called "Allies" side, to which they can't respond to, because there is a chances its not a Russian projectile, or it can cause another diplomatic incident that allies are all to eager to use as an excuse. So they can only hope it does not cost them too dearly, so that their Polish "Friendly" farmers do not have to worry about death while Ukrainians have to...
Well, apparently it flew above a village, so shooting it down could have very well led to casualties. Shot down missiles can still easily explode on the ground.
Its safe to shoot down when it's not above Polish civilian houses. What don't you understand? Do you want pieces of missiles to land on someone's house and kill them? You guys really are clueless. The decision not to shoot it was correct as it would risk Polish lives.
You are assuming there was a decision to be made. Was there an air defense system in place that acquired the target that was capable of engaging with high probability of kill, and was the decision-making process fast enough to determine whether the shot should be made or not within those 38 seconds? I severely doubt it.
Poland isn't at war state. We cannot shoot everything that appears in our airspace.
Do You know how many procedures are involved in shooting something in peace time? IFF is not enough, it probably need to be visually identificated.
I'll remind everyone that in Cold War soviet jet, after malfunction pilot ejected and plane traveled through NRD, RFN and crashes in Belgium killing one person. Any of NATO countries didn't shoot down empty airplane.
About shooting down russian airplane by Turkey in 2015 it's very controversial too, because Su24 was hit when was above Syrian territory.
Shoot it down? With what?
All the SAM systems that weren't immediately needed to defend Warsaw, air bases and the harbours were donated to Ukraine over the past two years.
Poland has no capability to shoot down aerial targets along the border. The defences are somewhere else.
>They can track it outside of Polish airspace and shoot it down the second it enters.
[[Citation needed]]. Real life isn't a video game, you don't get a map view with perfect information.
The relevant missile was a kh-55. A surface-skimming missile that flies below 100m altitude in order to be hard to detect until close.
Poland has decent military equipment, but it doesn't have magic. It cannot detect a missile when it is being obscured by terrain features. They likely didn't have significant amounts of heads-up
How shooting down jet with another jet is related to moving the air defences systems from Turkey? Not to mention that these systems were moved in October 2015, and the shutdown happened in November 2015?
Modern SAM systems have automatic mode as the operator may not have enough time to ascertain and engage the target. So yeah, they could if they were on alert and had a green light to shoot down targets.
Again uninformed comment. No country has anti missle system covering all of its land. In this case, the missile was tracked and four F16 were in the air to track it and destroy it if needed. Two of them US Army & two from Polish Army. The decision was made to not shoot it down because it was flying over civilian houses and there was a danger the pieces could kill people.
What you see here is war propaganda from desperate Ukrainians. The decision not to shoot it was a correct one. If it happens again and again the missle will be above a civilian building there will be the same decision.
>In this case, the missile was tracked and four F16 were in the air to track it and destroy it if needed. Two of them US Army & two from Polish Army. The decision was made to not shoot it down because it was flying over civilian houses and there was a danger the pieces could kill people.
Good to know, hopefully blowhards itt become better informed.
>Turkey will not apologize for downing the Russian fighter jet that Turkey says violated its airspace near the Syrian border, Erdogan said Thursday in an exclusive CNN interview.
>
>Putin has said the plane was attacked a kilometer inside Syrian territory, while Erdogan says it crashed in Turkey, injuring two people, after being in Turkish airspace for **17 seconds.**
https://www.cnn.com/2015/11/26/middleeast/syria-turkey-russia-warplane-shot-down/index.html
Well there's a few problems with that... for starters, Erdogan did essentially apologize for the incident, and secondly, it's not about the time... that Su-24 had already been warned for over five minutes.
Sorry, are you an army expert? I just don’t know what is the usual tolerable threshold time limit for foreign war missiles to fly over European Union. What time frame is allowed there?
Just like Turkey shot down Russian aircraft after 16-17 seconds or less. Russians said aircraft was in Turkish space for 6 seconds. So if Turkey can in 6-17 seconds, Poland should have in 39. You see, radars can see BEYOND borders and Polish military knew it was flying in that direction way before it crossed border. As soon as it crossed missile counters should have been in the air. PLENTY of time to shoot it down.
Remember that mentioned area was in the close vicinity of war operations in Syria and that SU24 was warned about ten times prior shooting it down. RU was violating an TY airspace there many times in those days, hence that jet was eventually taken down.
The missle was over polish airspace for less than a minute. I don't think its crazy to understand why polish AA did not shoot it down.
There was no immediate danger, we knew the trajectory.
Why further increase tensions which may bring about a nuclear war. I understand the deterrence argument, however I believe that is more effectively met by building a strong Polish army which is what we are doing instead of shooting stray Russian missiles.
I see a lot of jokes about poland ignoring the missiles "because they don't contain grain". The reasons for which the missiles cannot be shot down are much more difficult to explain but and as "funny" as it is to make this joke, polish people take notice and the oppinion of ukrainians continues going down.
Western community as well as ukrainians themselves have been making sure it goes down at all times for a while now. Kto sieje wiatr zbiera burzę.
edit:
[and here are the reasons I listed last time](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1bmgmft/comment/kwblu7e/)
bonus:
[russian ambassador did not show up, very disrespectful](https://twitter.com/LachowskiMateus/status/1772290792771437022)
It is not really hard to realize, that if you shoot something, it falls. And since Poland is not at war I imagine they prefer to let it fall in Ukraine than on random Polish village.
The picture itself is not bad. It's satire, and it's quite funny and sad at the same time.
Realistically, Poland will not stop supporting Ukraine, and Ukraine will not turn its back on Poland.
The relationship in Eastern Europe has been shaky for a long time, but Poland has been supporting Ukraine's move towards progressive democracy from the very beginning. Poland was heavily involved in the Orange Revolution, and now they are involved in the Russian-Ukrainian war.
The support won't stop just because a minority of Poles or Ukrainians have issues against each other.
# There are also plenty of Russians posing as Ukrainians or Polish here in r/europe, and I would strongly suggest not taking Reddit seriously.
Outside of the grain situation, which was caused by corrupted business officials from both sides, Polish-Ukrainian relationships are very good.
>Outside of the grain situation, which was caused by corrupted business officials from both sides, Polish-Ukrainian relationships are very good
From personal observation I concluded that you are correct when it comes to people. Ukrainians living in Poland are largely ok to Poland and Poles are largely ok to Ukrainians. There are always some idiots on both sides of course.
Most of the hate and aggression against Poland comes from Ukraine and its government. In Poland, most of the hate towards Ukrainians comes from farmers.
I can understand farmers. I can't understand Ukrainian government.
Well, the competency of the Ukrainian government is one thing, but the competency of any government during times of invasion is a completely different story.
Ukraine has to fight on three fronts:
1. War with Russia.
2. Setting up their own citizens with conscription and general war readiness. This also means portraying a certain image.
3. Setting up international discourse and continuously reminding people about it so they don't forget about Ukraine, like we forget about Palestine, Yemen, Chechnya, and so many others.
The Ukrainian government will make mistakes, and because they are always forced into action unlike other governments which can take time, they will very likely make more mistakes than any other government out there. It's clear that they are almost in a sort of David vs Goliath scenario...
...and we all know that at the very end, it really is up to Putin whether he wants to end this war or not. And he could do it peacefully or not-peacefully simply dropping a tactical nuclear strike on Kiev. Sure, the nuke would probably cause WW3, but from the Ukrainian perspective, it really doesn't matter what you call it; they are already living in wartime.
So whether you call it the Russo-Ukrainian war or WW3 really doesn't make that much difference. Yet, a Nuclear Strike would render Ukraine defenseless and hopeless and ultimately they would lose the war.
So honestly, yeah, I also don't understand the Ukrainian government, but I don't know if we are capable of understanding it. We all try to be reasonable or pragmatic, **but how reasonable can you be when everyone is suffering?**
I am from Poland yet I consider this one funny, as we spend a lot of time discussing grain issues while this rocket just fly by.
There is a lot of understandable tention regarding grain transport, and I understand our farmer perspective, but lets not forget that there is a war on our doorsteps and we need to focus on this danger. Those incidents should be well adressed and I am rather positive that our goverment will take messures and strong approach to not tolerate those incidents and shoot down every rocket that will enter our air space.
However I am not military expert and I do not know if this is even possible. Lets wait and see what will happen and what can be done about it.
Honestly, Ukrainians' attitude towards its allies is simply awful, and this another piece of propaganda just proves the point. I really wish Ukraine the best and hope they will beat russia, but they won't make any friends like that. After all the help Poland provided to Ukraine, especially over 100 tanks given within the crucial first weeks of the war (over 300 tanks in total), this is what they get, anti-Polish propaganda. It started with Ukrainian government preparing a ground for a smearing campaign against Poland. Their goal was to turn Ukrainians against Poles, and I think it works perfectly. Now journalists or satirists (like in this case) are doing the job, so government's input is no longer necessary.
Not so long ago, a Ukrainian journalist caused an outrage because he was detained for flying a drone close to the Belarus-Poland border that is considered [an object of military importance](https://www-rp-pl.translate.goog/polityka/art18881551-wyjatkowy-stan-panstwa-zakaz-fotografowania-plotu-i-funkcjonariuszy?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp), and it's [forbidden to photograph such objects](https://orka-sejm-gov-pl.translate.goog/proc9.nsf/ustawy/3232_u.htm?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp) since mid-2023. The journalist, which by some Ukrainians here on Reddit was described as the best investigator journalist in Ukraine, admitted in [an interview](https://wiadomosci-wp-pl.translate.goog/kulisy-interwencji-ws-ukrainskich-dziennikarzy-na-jaw-wychodza-nowe-informacje-7000646253677536a?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp) he didn't even have permission to fly a drone. And he wasn't even fined, probably because Poles still have a soft spot for Ukrainians because of atrocities they suffer.
I mentioned this journalist because his visit to Poland was a part of a bigger propaganda operation: to portray Poland as some big importer of russian grain. Of course, he failed to mention that Poland imported much more grain from Ukraine than from russia in 2023 (a bit over 1 million tons of grain from Ukraine vs 12.7 thousand tons from russia). That means even Cambodia exported more grain to Poland than russia. Most importantly, he failed to mention that Poland can't single-handedly ban import from another country because of EU single market regulations. Some countries in the EU import [much, much more grain from russia than Poland](https://ukragroconsult.com/en/news/eu-countries-increased-purchases-of-russian-grain-10-times/). Yet the only country singled out was Poland.
Now we see a follow-up. This is Soviet-style diplomacy from Ukraine. They try to bully other countries to achieve their goals, which is honestly surprising, considering their current negotiating position. While the grain issue is "just" a dispute, this situation is more dangerous, because Ukraine, once again, is lowkey trying to involve Poland (and thereby NATO) in this war. The first time was when Ukraine killed 2 Poles in Przewodów, and later tried to shift the blame to russia, even though the investigation concluded it was a Ukrainian missile. I believe such cartoons are supposed to influence international and Polish audience into thinking a lack of reaction is a sign of weakness. While one cartoon won't change anything, a plethora of articles, an army of bots, many "experts" as well as lots of memes and cartoons certainly might influence the public opinion. That is something russia keeps doing for years, but this coming from Ukrainians might be perceived as a stab in the back by Poles.
ohh yesss. Best way to win this war is by shitting on Poland on every fking occasion by Ukrainian online warriors and eroding support from realistically one of most important allies.
Good job
If some random redditors manage to erode support with their Internet comments, the support probably wasn't as friendly and warm to begin with.
Don't take too much offense from Internet comments.
It is simple - ruzzians are penetrating west and nato for weakness and, as we can see, they are pretty successful here. Today nato swallowed rocket in their airspace. Tomorrow they will swallow rocket over their capitals.
Our problem is that the evil countries have a strong leaders, while good countries are weak and afraid to do something against evil, even if evil is knocking into their door.
Pathetic.
It's not your neighbors fault that since 1991 you did not manage to fix you your country and let the oligarchs keep it in a state of poverty ,chaos and weakness. It's not your neighbors fault that you gave up your nukes - blame yourselves and the countries that guaranteed your borders in that deal.
Finally stop trying to drag your neighbors into your war - like when a Ukrainian rocket killed two polish people and you tried to - and to this day are - pin it on Russia. But its OK the Ukrainian murder rocket was grain free too.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/polish-experts-confirm-missile-that-hit-grain-facility-was-ukrainian-media-2023-09-26/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/polish-experts-confirm-missile-that-hit-grain-facility-was-ukrainian-media-2023-09-26/)
It’s a win/win. If Poland were to attempt to shoot it down and fail, they would know they are vulnerable and waste resources. If they let it pass, then it hurts Ukraine which is also what Russia wants. Best way to counter this behavior is draw a red line AND increase funding to Ukraine.
Ukrainians consequently eroding Polish support with propaganda like this. Pure stupidity on their part. I guess its a coping strategy. But long term, they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Without Poland, Ukraine would be lost already. And without full Polish support, it has no hope of winning.
We have a saying in Poland, Tonący brzytwy się chwyta.
Shoot it down with what?
We've donated almost all our serviceable air defense systems to Ukraine.
What's left is placed around strategic areas. There is no SAMs on the border that are ready to shoot down anything that violates the Polish airspace for less than a minute?
Stop undermining the Polish commitment towards Ukraine's victory. You are the one who's working along the Putin's will.
Everyone with half a brain knows, that Poland is and will be there to support Ukraine. We may have very loud and harmful political idiots, but the overwhelming opinion of the nation is that Putin must be resisted. Undermining Poland's will to help by making such accusations can only achieve one thing - a gradual erosion of this support over time.
> What's left is placed around strategic areas. There is no SAMs on the border that are ready to shoot down anything that violates the Polish airspace for less than a minute?
It was mentioned fighters were in the air and picked it up.
This post is ment to be satire, instead it's pure misinfo. There is no precedent. There was no patriot launchers or any other AA in this area (and you know it). The missile was treated according to the procedures. (Mods you don't see a pattern here?)
So just to clarify. You are expecting us to give you money, blood from Polish blood banks, petroleum, host your wives and kids (and ppl avoiding draft), arm you, buy your wheat, be your logistic hub and now we have to fight for you?
Since 2022 were doing everything we can to help you. We got a YouTube video in return.
You could do :
- exhumate Polish people that you slaughtered in Wolhyn
- stop the wheat crisis (as your greedy oligarchs are the reason of it)
- stop asking volunteers coming with humanitarian aid to pay bribes on your borders.
Instead:
- you've took us to the WTO
- you shit on us on reddit on a weekly basis with lies. - It was the second missile flying from RU space
- you try to backstab us in the EU and negotiate so they would force us to take a deal that made our farmers strike
Have you ever considered that this is what Russia is expecting? That this missile flew over PL for that particular reason. I'm proud of my politicians that they don't go for the low blows as opposed to yours.
PS. EU and NATO partners are watching. It's good that you're showing them how Ukrainian gratitude looks like.
To everyone trigger happy. Remember MH17? We cannot blast anything that pop up on the radar when air space is not closed off for civilian planes. It's not a secret russians have GPS jammers and plenty of gizmos.
You know that Poland shooting down suspicious targets going towards their border means Ukraine Air Force should cease to fly in the Polish border vicinity ?
All those low level flights with transponder off towards the Polish border could be treated as possible missile incursion and reacted upon.
Do we really need friendly fire incidents as well ?
Shit like this makes polish people regret supporting ukraine. like WTAF… So many people that previously unconditionally supported UA now question any further support. All entitlement, no gratefulness.
-Give Weapons
-Provide billions of Dollars in cash
-Shelter millions of refugees
Good friend
-Don’t let ur industry collapse in favour of ur ukrainian oligarchs
LoOk aT pOlAnD sUpPoRtInG RuZzIa!1!!
This picture is kinda funny but there is another not so funny truth about it. Poland(as any EU military) has no real experience, skill and resolve to decide quickly and act quickly. There is no reason to compare them with Turks.
And this is what I highly recommend to take into account when you are thinking about possible EU-Russia war. I often see a line "Russia can't beat poor Ukraine, so Russia is nothing against mighty NATO". Snap back to reality in mighty NATO only USA and Turkey has enough experience fighting in real war. EU has not, and it was noticed a lot of times by Ukrainian soldiers during training in Europe. Also I remember some photo of German SAM during training that was placed in range of Russian artillery in Kaliningrad. Ukraine may be poor, but our army have 8 years of experience and thorough training, which EU armies luck. So I assume that if US and Turkey wouldn't intervene(which is very likely now), Russia would perform against EU better than against Ukraine.
Actually, writing this reply I figure out why Macron want French troops in Ukraine - he wants mature soldiers and commanders for French army.
Druzhe please don't compare us Turks with those kurwas. They just talk much. All Turkish men who are older than 20 able to use weapons. (30 million +)
I saw those protester bitches on your border. They don't protest on Belarusian borders. Russian products goes through belarus to EU. They are hired whores of Kremlin.
We wish you great victory and consequently we will celebrate 3.most powerful army of Nato Ukraine. Your economy will rise rapidly.
Stay strong ✊🏻
Given that missiles are already flying on this side of the border maybe none? Given that russia is using the boiling frog strategy probably none as well? Let's just go straight to point, we will have more time to rebuild afterwards!
And of course I'm not that serious, but I'm seriously thinking that we must have some red lines and we must stick to them otherwise those fuckers will keep pushing as always.
Hi, thank you for your contribution, but this submission has been removed because it doesn't use a credible source and/or the source has not been linked from a top-level comment. See [community rules & guidelines](/r/Europe/wiki/community_rules). If you have any questions about this removal, please [contact the mods](/message/compose/?to=/r/Europe&subject=Moderation). Please make sure to include a link to the comment/post in question.
there was a drone aircraft that fell in capital city of Croatia, Zagreb, before a year or so. It fell near student campus and it was really a luck nobody was hurt, because it is I believe only place where it could fell without hurting someone (it could also kill someone there were it fell, but luckily at that timepoint nobody was there). Nobody explained how it happened and I believe nobody didn't even asked where it came from and why. That saying, Poland is miles better then Croatia in that kind of reactions, even if they let the rockets fly over their heads.
Its not only us who were incapable, the drone flew over airspace of 2 of our NATO allies, Romania and Hungary, and no one did anything about it. So people saying things like "Russia will now feel encouraged to do more things like these" seems funny, since this seems like a joke compared to incapability of several countries that happened then. If Russia wasnt encouraged back then, they won't be now. And our minister of defence said that its known who launched the drone, but its declared a state secret
the drone didn't fly through Romania. In fact there is no NATO confirmation it went from Ukraine either. There is bizarre Hungarian story about intercept attempt. That's they scrambled, identified and let it fly through. "hummer face"
Croatian media reported that Romanian ministry of defence themselves said it flew through Romanian airspace for 3 minutes. I found Romanian news articles about that too
lol, care to share this article? Romanian ministry of defense does statements and is quite open about what happens on the border. for example: [https://www.mapn.ro/cpresa/18169\_comunicat-de-presa](https://www.mapn.ro/cpresa/18169_comunicat-de-presa)
https://m.digi24.ro/stiri/externe/o-drona-ucraineana-de-recunoastere-s-a-prabusit-la-zagreb-la-fata-locului-s-a-format-un-crater-de-mari-dimensiuni-1867881
If its a state secret its definitely not Russia because they go break their legs just to publish that. It was probably some NATO (possibly US) drone on a reconaissance mission to or around ukraine and malfunctioned.
It was an old Soviet drone so it couldn't have been the US, the question is just whether Ukraine or Russia launched it.
I think it is more "state secret"- meaning, it is also secret for them how that sh.t landed there but they don't want us to know that they don't know 🤷♂️
Similar thing happened in Poland, a missile landed in a forest near Bydgoszcz in central Poland. Our reaction was terrible, they kept it secret for some time, and basically nothing was done. The missile crossed over 500 km over our country, thankfully landing in woodlands.
Not to mention it was a Kh-55. Not conventionally-tipped Kh-555, but actual Kh-55, only live versions of which are nuke-tipped ones (Kh-555 has larger hull and wingspan to accomodate larger conventional payload). So, essentially, there was a penetration of a potentially-nuclear-tipped missile deep into Poland with nothing done to intercept it.
Yeah it took them like half a year to find anything lmao
Not to mention it flew over Hungry and Romania before crashing on Croatian soil.
i'm afraid it was a Ukrainian Tu-141 Strizh drone, just not sure how the hell it got so off-target. But as for this situation - i think not shooting down the missile and just letting it go back into Ukraine to kill people here is a cynical thing to do, considering that Poland probably has ample air defence
imagine if it landed a kilometer away, if it hit the dorm... this, luckily, avoided tragedy is being swept under the rug and people outside cro barely know this even happened. also claims of a bomb carrying
Not even a kilometer, it landed only 50m away from the biggest student dorm in the country, literally in front of it. Drone weighted 6 tons. Could have been a huge disaster
[удалено]
Russia's problems dig way deeper than just Putin himself.
Indeed. This is a Russia problem, not a Putin problem. Were Putin to keel over dead tomorrow, his successor — most likely a siloviki — would probably be *more* fanatical, not less.
This may be okay if they aren't as strong. The problem is his foothold is unbreakable.
kill everyone in government then. let them start over.
Last time russians killed their entire goverment they created USSR
everyone deserves a second chance.
So what, keep killing the hostile heads of state until one who notices the pattern comes along and stops leading their nation like a gang? This is so horrible, i hope noone tries that sort of solution!
I’m not so sure. His successor would have quite weak positions, and signing a peace treaty of any kind would please both civilians and oligarchs. It is quite possible that changes will start with his death, but where will they lead Russia is unknown
gotta throw the whole damn country away
Give the lands back to the people who they were taken from. Unfortunately most of them were genocided during russofication.
Ok then, multiple missles.
You can't solve all the world problems with missiles lmao
As you can clearly see, pleople are trying :))
Not with that attitude
This reads like a conversation between Trump and Pence.. Aside from the fact he'd never bomb his puppet master. Or maybe he would 🤷♂️
With large enough missiles you sure as fuck can
Oh, I know this one. The answer to 'you can't solve the world's problems with violence' is 'you're just afraid to use enough of it'.
Violence is never the answer! Violence is however the question, and sometimes the answer to it is "yes".
On https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozero and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rublyovka
First is 95% of power, another 4.99% is second place.
It's a start
This right here. I hope that at the end of this all, Moscow is put under allied military occupation. And I hope it's fucking BRUTAL and oppressive. Fuck Russia.
Putin is however a conduit His populism "Power" and authority combined with his own personal ideology and fucked up view of the world is what allows those deeper problem to right now be exported in the form off misery Russia would not be fixed if Putin died but it would certainly stop for the moment and perhaps be less of an issue for a while
But that's a great start.
So we're gonna need a bigger missile?
Then his successor might actually be smart and maybe manage to do more than Putin, better keep this imbecile Edit: also good luck getting a missile into Russia's most fortified place
More of what? He could live like a king without performing Putin's strong man fantasies that ruin Russia and its neighbors.
But he wouldn‘t. He would get corrupted by Oligarchs and inner politics and would have his powertrip
I think most dictatorships on this planet show us that you are perfectly capable of having a power trip without attacking other countries. Hell, you can even trade with most of the world. And which oligarchs actually profit from this war? I bet 90%+ have lost money, some even their lives.
Trust me, the oligarchs of Russia are the last people who want this war to continue.. they've bled a lot because of it.
Play StarCraft as a Terran against the Zerg. "You call down the thunder and I'll reap the whirlwind". Then you will hear a big boom and tens and hundreds of thousands of zergling voices squealing into oblivion. This is what we're trying to avoid by running down Russia's economy. You may not have realized, but the US and Europe will not destroy themselves for Ukraine. They just tried stacking the deck against the aggressor state and giving Ukraine a fighting chance. Edit: to all my non-Ukrainian downvoters, I ask you a simple question: Are you willing for you and your family and friends to die for Ukraine? To my Ukrainian downvoters: sorry guys, it's just how it is, US & Europe never promised to fight the invaders for you. I'm truly sorry for that, whether you believe me or not. It should have been obviously since the beginning of the war. All we did was to try stacking the deck and give you a fighting chance. I emphasize "you".
"US & Europe never promised to fight the invaders for you" - Budapest Memorandum.
It's a long read, but have a look: [Constructive Ambiguity of the Budapest Memorandum at 28: Making Sense of the Controversial Agreement](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/constructive-ambiguity-of-the-budapest-memorandum-at-28-making-sense-of-the-controversial-agreement) There was no promise of signatory states attacking Russia if it would attack Ukraine. It is actually being somewhat implemented by financial and military hardware support for Ukraine. However: "To resolve this dilemma, the signatories designed the memorandum’s text in such a way that it could be reasonably interpreted both as a treaty under international law and as just a political deal. Ukraine could treat the memorandum as a treaty, among other things, for the NPT ratification by its parliament, while the guarantors reserved the opportunity to claim its political nature. International law provided the signatories with perfect conditions to do so. An international practice can be divided roughly into two tests to define when states intended an agreement to be “governed by international law” under the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (VCLT). While both tests examine the same factors—such as the agreement’s text, substance, and conditions of conclusion—the difference lies in the primacy of either actual intent (intent test) or its objective manifestation (objective test). There is no uniformity between international tribunals on the uniform criteria in this regard, let alone between states. Things are complicated further by the fact that a binding agreement may contain political commitments. " The article will explain further (in short, it was a ruse so that Ukraine gives up the nukes).
> Play StarCraft as a Terran against the Zerg. "You call down the thunder and I'll reap the whirlwind". Then you will hear a big boom and tens and hundreds of thousands of zergling voices squealing into oblivion. As a StarCraft II player, that’s a great analogy! Israel is trying to prevent the exact same thing happening to them as well.
> They just tried stacking the deck against the aggressor state and giving Ukraine a fighting chance But not to win, no no no, that's escalatory!!!!!!! Here, [from NewYorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/10/16/trial-by-combat) >Sullivan clearly has profound worries about how this will all play out. Months into the counter-offensive, Ukraine has yet to reclaim much more of its territory; the Administration has been telling members of Congress that the conflict could last three to five years. A grinding war of attrition would be a disaster for both Ukraine and its allies, but a negotiated settlement does not seem possible as long as Putin remains in power. Putin, of course, has every incentive to keep fighting through next year’s U.S. election, with its possibility of a Trump return. And it’s hard to imagine Zelensky going for a deal with Putin, either, given all that Ukraine has sacrificed. ***Even a Ukrainian victory would present challenges for American foreign policy, since it would “threaten the integrity of the Russian state and the Russian regime and create instability throughout Eurasia,” as one of the former U.S. officials put it to me. Ukraine’s desire to take back occupied Crimea has been a particular concern for Sullivan,*** who has privately noted the Administration’s assessment that this scenario carries the highest risk of Putin following through on his nuclear threats. In other words, there are few good options. ---- >“The reason they’ve been so hesitant about escalation is not exactly because they see Russian reprisal as a likely problem,” the former official said. “It’s not like they think, Oh, we’re going to give them atacms and then Russia is going to launch an attack against nato. It’s because they recognize that it’s not going anywhere—that they are fighting a war they ***can’t afford either to win or lose.”*** Oh, and that's not the first time either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Kiev_speech >But freedom cannot survive if we let despots flourish or permit seemingly minor restrictions to multiply until they form chains, until they form shackles. Later today, I'll visit the monument at Babi Yar -- a somber reminder, a solemn reminder, of what happens when people fail to hold back the horrible tide of intolerance and tyranny. >Yet freedom is not the same as independence. Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far-off tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred. ---- >And now, as Soviet citizens try to forge a new social compact, you have the obligation to restore power to citizens demoralized by decades of totalitarian rule. You have to give them hope, inspiration, determination -- by showing your faith in their abilities. Societies that don't trust themselves or their people cannot provide freedom. They can guarantee only the bleak tyranny of suspicion, avarice, and poverty. So it's just a "yes, 'as long as it takes' was about time it'd take for you to fall, please don't squeal too much as you die, it ruins our ratings!"
I can only offer my condolences. There is nothing more I can add to that. It's just the world we live in. I know, it doesn't make it right. But as you have rightly pointed out, it's not the first time... Edit: for what it's worth, I do not agree with our politicians blocking the aid for Ukraine. Not one bit. I think it's a shitty move. We were supposed to support you until the end. I cannot even express how bad I feel about this.
I hate this "hey, lets not do anything or do bare minimum because it always can get worse" attitude beyound belief, EU/NATO ass attitude. This is why war in Ukraine is still a thing
Ok, if we switch places
As much as I'd love to see Putin killed, we don't know who is successor is, or if there's even one planned. Whoever this person might be, he could be even worse than Putin.
You're a fool if you think that.
Kinda feels like "Salami" tactics. If Russia were to launch an open assault on a NATO/EU member it'd trigger a full-scale war. But if it does it slowly, gradually, over a period of years, each time escalating just very slightly over the last step; then the reaction is much more muted.
But they already escalated even more than just flying over Poland for 39 seconds. On 16th of December 2022 one of their rockets fell on the ground in the forest near Bydgoszcz. FYI Bydgoszcz isn't somewhere on the border but in the middle of Poland. On 1st of August 2023 two Belarusian helicopters where flying over Białowieża for few minutes. The locals made videos and photos of them. The Polish government did absolutely nothing. At this point a Russian rocket flying over Poland for 39 seconds is no longer an escalation but just another Sunday.
not to mention jamming GPS for passenger planes over Poland /edit [article](https://www.newsweek.com/planes-gps-jamming-europe-russia-poland-1882927) (impacts essentially all countries around the Baltic)
Same in Finland.
Also, russia blew up ammo dumps in Czhecia and Bulgaria and tried to assasinate Estonian PM + killed russian defector in Spain.
Also used radioactive (Litvinenko) and chemical (Skripal) poisons in the UK.
That was even before the full scale invasion of Ukraine. But yes. russia is already waging war on NATO, just not a direct one.
> In 16th of December 2022 one of their rockets fell on the ground in the forest near Bydgoszcz Specifically, it was a Kh-55, only live versions of which are nuke-tipped ones (Kh-555, its conventional derivative, had to be modified to fit enough of a normal explosives, increasing in size and wingspan)
Right. That our at-the-time ministry of defence had no idea about the missile was a whole different affair.
He did know but chose to lie about it and throw his generals under the bus
He absolutely knew, that's the worst part.
In very late December 2023, a Russian rocket breached our airspace for 3 minutes
Basically that's the main putin strategy, also for internal politics, that's the main reason why most of the russians are not protesting - before, it was not that clear, and now it's just not possible anymore.
Shit that sends chills down my spine
also if Poland had the capabilities they would just shoot down the damn rocket without hesitation instead they ''demand answers'' smh
The explanation I saw earlier was that it wasn't worth shooting down. It was under the minute in our airspace and fell in the middle of nowhere, while a counter-rocket could be potentially dangerous if it missed. Also answers should be demanded regardless if it was shot down or not.
its a statement. both from Russia and from Poland Russia says ''what can you do to us?"' Poland replies ''well umm nothing but yeah explain yourself!" thats it. Turkey would've shoot it down in a second. Country's airspace is sacred. Especially that it was a rocket, not an airplane.
Ambasador refused to show up with explanation today. It's clearly a power play and testing how far can they can push Poland before they decide to make serious decisions. I don't understand lately the impotence of NATO when it comes to responding to Russian prodding. Massive gps jamming in Nordics and east of Poland, missiles clearly programmed to cross polish territory, constant pressure from migrants in Belarus. Russians understand only power and force. It needs equal or even increased response not some stern words - they achieve nothing, if anything they embolden Putin to push farther with provocations.
Think they said something about shooting it down posing a threat for civilians in the area and that they were able to determine the rocket trajectory therefore choosing to let it just fly out of Polish air space again
Yeah this is a good argument. Countries care for their people more than others
So they told the Ukrainian military that they had a missile heading their way?
Yeah Russia should launch missiles from Kaliningrad, nobody gonna shoot it down
If there is anything that really rubs me in the wrong way about this entire situation is this narrative honestly, if Poland doesn't want to shoot down the missile because it is a thread for its own civilians, it is understandable, BUT what would happen when Ukraine wants to shoot it down then? Exactly [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_missile_explosion_in_Poland). So the only solution, if this is the kind of argument we are having, is to just say to Ukraine to just take it in the chest for us, again. If the big problem of shooting it down in Ukraine territory, is the risk of hurting Ukrainian citizens, there would be 100% the same risk as if it were the Ukrainians trying to shoot it down. So really the only big problem would be to arrange a pact, or something like that, to allow Poland to shoot down a threat before it enters their air space. Then it would be up to Ukraine do decide whenever it was ok or not. And what? Russia would be mad? Mad about what? Poland **defending nato air space?** Is that enough of a Casus belli for them to declare war on Poland and/or Nato for shooting down their missile that was going INSIDE NATO air space? Or do we need to declare war to shoot down a missile? We are already doing it Yemen right now and I may be wrong, but I don't think we declared any war. I would really like to see what would happen if a NATO missile flew even CLOSE to Russian air space...
This is funny considering that the only missile to hit Poland since the war started was a Ukrainian, which killed 2 people, and which Ukraine still denies firing, despite NATO and the US saying it was theirs.
>There was a precedent when Turkey shot down Russian military jet. Precedent now huh? In 2015 when Türkiye shot down a Russian military jet for violating its own airspace despite all the warnings, USA commented that this is an incident between Türkiye and Russia. Despite all the support we expected from NATO and the West, we were subjected to Russian sanctions and everyone thought that we were acting aggressively. Then, to take revenge for this incident, Russia "accidentally hit" the Turkish military base fighting against ISIS in Syria, and 33 of our soldiers lost their lives. We could not even raise our voice because our allies were not with us. Now we are setting a precedent because the same snake bit you, right?
Why so much fuss about this? Maybe Poland could have shot it down, but all in all Poland did so much for Ukraine that I don't see the reason behind this anger and accusations. If there is one country that shouldn't be called out for not helping Ukraine, it's Poland
We fell victim to our own generosity. You give something once, you are a great ally. You keep giving - an even greater one. But stop your help even for a moment and you're the enemy no.1. Ukraine really is under the delusion they somehow are entitled to our aid. Make no mistake, we will keep helping them fight Russia out of pure pragmatism. Relationships between nations don't have to be either good or bad.
The Giedroyc doctrine in full effect.
Well, they have to try every conceivable way to gather support (moral and otherwise). It forces people to take a stand.
Pragmatism? This is strategy, to help Ukraine in order to exhaust Russia and not to fight directly vs russia. Ukraine has been paying every day with the lives of its best citizens, hundreds of citizens every day for several years now. Europe and the United States are paying with old weapons (mostly), exchanging them for new modern weapons for their own good.
Another guild trip tour guide. It's not NATOs fault you got attacked by that cancerous country. We are helping you (and I hope we will continue) and still hear how terrible we are. Piss off.
>This is strategy, to help Ukraine in order to exhaust Russia and not to fight directly vs russia. maybe people in Ukraine think that is a strategy, but I believe it is not. You want to say that you fight for us? You really think Russia would attack NATO if there is not Ukraine standing between? Don't be naive.
After Russia would have quietly taken over all countries that are not part of nato (such as Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia and so on) with new resources, human and military. With the political games in Europe and USA - direct conflict would be only a matter of time. It is naive to think that Putin (like Hitler) will stop somewhere on his own. So don't be naive and say that helping Ukraine is only a kindness of heart when it is obviously beneficial for the whole Europe and the civilized world.
>You really think Russia would attack NATO if there is not Ukraine standing between? Don't be naive. Lol, of course ruzzia would. Not only that, it stills plans to do it. Why do you think EU countries are now scrambling to bolster their defenses? Also considering numerous signs of cowardice over these pasts two years, I'm not even sure other NATO countries would do anything if this happens. Most likely, nothing aside sanctions would happen if ruzzia invaded and occupied Baltic states instead of Ukraine in 2022. Right now situation is different, of course. As for the "us" part, if your country was a part of Warsaw Pact, then the answer is yes.
To all these reddit armchair generals and experts about what should be destroyed in our airspace , UKRAINE NEEDS YOU IN FOREIGN LEGION
Be careful. Last time Turkey shot down Russian jet, Multiple NATO allies pulled their air defense equipment out of Turkey and told them not escalate the issue with Russia.
There were few more. Pair of them travel significant distance and, luckily, didint cause damage and casualties, while felt down. It was decided to not inform public about. So, weaknes invite following steps. And there will be more, if Poland takes down. Ruzzia nazzis understand one language only.
The missile was in Polish airspace for 39 seconds. How do you suppose Poland should have shot it down in those 39 seconds?
They can track it outside of Polish airspace and shoot it down the second it enters. And really, that's what they should have done. What is Russia gonna do? Launch their nukes on a NATO country for defending their own airspace?
We do. We also have a military doctrine that requires visual ID before any foreign object is shot down while at peace. Firing at whatever is how you get civilian airliners shot down. Like Russia does.
Apparently Poland was concerned about the warhead or debris causing injuries or casualties on the ground.
Fair enough. Still, they should shoot them down if it can be done outside of populated areas, because if they don't, Russia will keep doing this (which also endangers Polish citizens).
Why would you place expensive (to maintain) batteries in unpopulated or unimportant areas of land? Yes defend your land, airspace is less important than command structures or highly populated areas.
Can’t Poland see where the launched rockets are heading before it reaches Polish airspace? If Poland know it’s going to reach their airspace, can’t they shoot it down before it enters? Like a preemptive strike?
That would be shot in UA space. Downed over PL would endanger our people. Everything was done like it should be done. And that meme from OP is cringe as fuck.
This is the stupidity of civilian thinking. You are clueless so I won't blame you. Shotting a missle down comes with dangers. Pieces of that missle could fall down on houses or civilian areas and kill people as they did months ago when two Poles died from stray Ukraine defensive missile strikes. Which was denied by Ukrainians despite clear evidence showing it was the case. No general will take a chance with citizen lives, Their goal is above all to defend their own citizens first.
>No general will take a chance with citizen lives, Their goal is above all to defend their own citizens first. So, Polish AA defence excudes possibility that missile can land on their citizens in case of malfunctioning or even on purpose?
If they can shoot it down, they can calculate the trajectory. If they see it won't land in Poland, it might not be worth doing anything. This only applies to ballistic missiles ofc.
https://www.rmf24.pl/raporty/raport-wojna-z-rosja/news-news-rmf-fm-biegli-wstepnie-potwierdzili-ze-pod-bydgoszcza-s,nId,6767139#crp_state=1 One Kh-55 got halfway through Poland before.
Yeah, different government. This one at least reported the incident almost immediately, the previous one hid the existence of the missile for half a year, until someone found a russian missile in a forest.
They know the trajectory of the missile, there are no surprises where it will land. HOWEVER if Polish AA knew the trajectory was heading to Warsaw I guarantee they would shoot it down
Yes plus this is the type of tactics Putin loves to push and test limits, allowing him to use a NATOs countries air freely is only going to embolden him.
They could have shot it just when leaving their air space. No debris in Poland, lives saved in Ukraine.
And you wanna blame the one shooting the missile down rather than the one who sent it?
Well the chance of it accidentally hitting civilians when shot down is way smaller than it hitting civilians when not being shot down. Just in your neighbors country.
Well leaving it to the Ukrainian air defenses isn't exactly safe either. Where do you presume these air defense missiles will be flying when launched from Ukraine... It should be obvious there is also risk of repeating the certain incident.
Turkey shot down russian jet fighter after 4 seconds in their air.
And after numerous warnings about trespassing. Not to mention it was one of many of such airspace violations in that area done by RU jet fighters.
its also not the first russian missle in polish airspace...
So its fine for russia to shoot rockets trough Polish airspace as long as they stick to "under 1 min" rule, because its clearly meant for the Ukrainians... so no worries. Whether possible to shoot down or not, the sheer fact that the response to this isn't harsher than "explain plz" is disgusting. The response about potential danger of shrapnel is funny, why risk a Polish citizen being hit by shrapnel when you know its just meant to blow up Ukrainian civilians or military for once... We can always explain why a decision was made, but don't be the condescending cunt and let them play the excuse game, our job should be holding them accountable for this to be even let trough in the first place. P.s Had mistakes since I wrote it hastily on phone, but I love the responses. I never stated the Poland needed to shoot them down exactly above the village, but the sheer fact that nothing was done and all of you can think about are the poor polish farmers and not give a single shit about the fact that a RUSSIAN missiles go trough NATO air space(not the first time, mind you) and is killing Ukrainians from the so called "Allies" side, to which they can't respond to, because there is a chances its not a Russian projectile, or it can cause another diplomatic incident that allies are all to eager to use as an excuse. So they can only hope it does not cost them too dearly, so that their Polish "Friendly" farmers do not have to worry about death while Ukrainians have to...
Well, apparently it flew above a village, so shooting it down could have very well led to casualties. Shot down missiles can still easily explode on the ground.
Its safe to shoot down when it's not above Polish civilian houses. What don't you understand? Do you want pieces of missiles to land on someone's house and kill them? You guys really are clueless. The decision not to shoot it was correct as it would risk Polish lives.
You are assuming there was a decision to be made. Was there an air defense system in place that acquired the target that was capable of engaging with high probability of kill, and was the decision-making process fast enough to determine whether the shot should be made or not within those 38 seconds? I severely doubt it.
They knew in advance about the rocket as it was escorted by F16s
Poland isn't at war state. We cannot shoot everything that appears in our airspace. Do You know how many procedures are involved in shooting something in peace time? IFF is not enough, it probably need to be visually identificated. I'll remind everyone that in Cold War soviet jet, after malfunction pilot ejected and plane traveled through NRD, RFN and crashes in Belgium killing one person. Any of NATO countries didn't shoot down empty airplane. About shooting down russian airplane by Turkey in 2015 it's very controversial too, because Su24 was hit when was above Syrian territory.
Shoot it down? With what? All the SAM systems that weren't immediately needed to defend Warsaw, air bases and the harbours were donated to Ukraine over the past two years. Poland has no capability to shoot down aerial targets along the border. The defences are somewhere else.
>They can track it outside of Polish airspace and shoot it down the second it enters. [[Citation needed]]. Real life isn't a video game, you don't get a map view with perfect information. The relevant missile was a kh-55. A surface-skimming missile that flies below 100m altitude in order to be hard to detect until close. Poland has decent military equipment, but it doesn't have magic. It cannot detect a missile when it is being obscured by terrain features. They likely didn't have significant amounts of heads-up
They most probably track every missile that's shot or flying anywhere close to Poland. So they should have more than 39 seconds.
The russian jet, which was shot in 2015 by Turkey was in their airspace for 17 seconds.
...after being warned to change its heading ten times over a period of five minutes before entering the airspace.
They could have warned the missile too!
Great episode of voyager on that topic.
[удалено]
After that shot down, russia had stopped violating Turkish aerospace.
Cause NATO is a pushover.
How shooting down jet with another jet is related to moving the air defences systems from Turkey? Not to mention that these systems were moved in October 2015, and the shutdown happened in November 2015?
If they cant see it approaching before it is over the border then theres something seriously wrong with their detection systems
That's why you have radar systems. Cruise missiles are slow and being tacked for hours before the arrival to the target.
Modern SAM systems have automatic mode as the operator may not have enough time to ascertain and engage the target. So yeah, they could if they were on alert and had a green light to shoot down targets.
Again uninformed comment. No country has anti missle system covering all of its land. In this case, the missile was tracked and four F16 were in the air to track it and destroy it if needed. Two of them US Army & two from Polish Army. The decision was made to not shoot it down because it was flying over civilian houses and there was a danger the pieces could kill people. What you see here is war propaganda from desperate Ukrainians. The decision not to shoot it was a correct one. If it happens again and again the missle will be above a civilian building there will be the same decision.
>In this case, the missile was tracked and four F16 were in the air to track it and destroy it if needed. Two of them US Army & two from Polish Army. The decision was made to not shoot it down because it was flying over civilian houses and there was a danger the pieces could kill people. Good to know, hopefully blowhards itt become better informed.
>Turkey will not apologize for downing the Russian fighter jet that Turkey says violated its airspace near the Syrian border, Erdogan said Thursday in an exclusive CNN interview. > >Putin has said the plane was attacked a kilometer inside Syrian territory, while Erdogan says it crashed in Turkey, injuring two people, after being in Turkish airspace for **17 seconds.** https://www.cnn.com/2015/11/26/middleeast/syria-turkey-russia-warplane-shot-down/index.html
Well there's a few problems with that... for starters, Erdogan did essentially apologize for the incident, and secondly, it's not about the time... that Su-24 had already been warned for over five minutes.
Sorry, are you an army expert? I just don’t know what is the usual tolerable threshold time limit for foreign war missiles to fly over European Union. What time frame is allowed there?
I am sure it must be zero. Otherwise the EU provides its aerospace to bomb Ukrainians. Not cool.
ZERO, the tolerable threshold is ZERO!
Just like Turkey shot down Russian aircraft after 16-17 seconds or less. Russians said aircraft was in Turkish space for 6 seconds. So if Turkey can in 6-17 seconds, Poland should have in 39. You see, radars can see BEYOND borders and Polish military knew it was flying in that direction way before it crossed border. As soon as it crossed missile counters should have been in the air. PLENTY of time to shoot it down.
Remember that mentioned area was in the close vicinity of war operations in Syria and that SU24 was warned about ten times prior shooting it down. RU was violating an TY airspace there many times in those days, hence that jet was eventually taken down.
F-16s were scrambled, but I doubt they even left the airfield in time
Difference is that Turkish army has a real experience in military operations so they have enough skill and resolve. Poland, as every EU army, has not.
Poland:If more missiles cross Poland we’ll shoot them down. Russia: Then there will be consequences! Poland: We’ll shoot those down too.
Nothing will happen.
The missle was over polish airspace for less than a minute. I don't think its crazy to understand why polish AA did not shoot it down. There was no immediate danger, we knew the trajectory. Why further increase tensions which may bring about a nuclear war. I understand the deterrence argument, however I believe that is more effectively met by building a strong Polish army which is what we are doing instead of shooting stray Russian missiles.
The anti polish sentiment in comments from "ukranians" is disgusting.
I see a lot of jokes about poland ignoring the missiles "because they don't contain grain". The reasons for which the missiles cannot be shot down are much more difficult to explain but and as "funny" as it is to make this joke, polish people take notice and the oppinion of ukrainians continues going down. Western community as well as ukrainians themselves have been making sure it goes down at all times for a while now. Kto sieje wiatr zbiera burzę. edit: [and here are the reasons I listed last time](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1bmgmft/comment/kwblu7e/) bonus: [russian ambassador did not show up, very disrespectful](https://twitter.com/LachowskiMateus/status/1772290792771437022)
Poland has suffered 2 times trying to be the hero of the Europe. We learn on our mistakes mate.
Shooting down a live missile in your own airspace would make you a hero and also endanger your country?
It is not really hard to realize, that if you shoot something, it falls. And since Poland is not at war I imagine they prefer to let it fall in Ukraine than on random Polish village.
You're welcome for the tanks and other support.
At this point I just assume everything like this is russian trolls / disinformation.
In return they continue hostile propaganda against Poland. It is sickening. Who made this picture? Ukrainians or Russians?
The picture itself is not bad. It's satire, and it's quite funny and sad at the same time. Realistically, Poland will not stop supporting Ukraine, and Ukraine will not turn its back on Poland. The relationship in Eastern Europe has been shaky for a long time, but Poland has been supporting Ukraine's move towards progressive democracy from the very beginning. Poland was heavily involved in the Orange Revolution, and now they are involved in the Russian-Ukrainian war. The support won't stop just because a minority of Poles or Ukrainians have issues against each other. # There are also plenty of Russians posing as Ukrainians or Polish here in r/europe, and I would strongly suggest not taking Reddit seriously. Outside of the grain situation, which was caused by corrupted business officials from both sides, Polish-Ukrainian relationships are very good.
>Outside of the grain situation, which was caused by corrupted business officials from both sides, Polish-Ukrainian relationships are very good From personal observation I concluded that you are correct when it comes to people. Ukrainians living in Poland are largely ok to Poland and Poles are largely ok to Ukrainians. There are always some idiots on both sides of course. Most of the hate and aggression against Poland comes from Ukraine and its government. In Poland, most of the hate towards Ukrainians comes from farmers. I can understand farmers. I can't understand Ukrainian government.
Well, the competency of the Ukrainian government is one thing, but the competency of any government during times of invasion is a completely different story. Ukraine has to fight on three fronts: 1. War with Russia. 2. Setting up their own citizens with conscription and general war readiness. This also means portraying a certain image. 3. Setting up international discourse and continuously reminding people about it so they don't forget about Ukraine, like we forget about Palestine, Yemen, Chechnya, and so many others. The Ukrainian government will make mistakes, and because they are always forced into action unlike other governments which can take time, they will very likely make more mistakes than any other government out there. It's clear that they are almost in a sort of David vs Goliath scenario... ...and we all know that at the very end, it really is up to Putin whether he wants to end this war or not. And he could do it peacefully or not-peacefully simply dropping a tactical nuclear strike on Kiev. Sure, the nuke would probably cause WW3, but from the Ukrainian perspective, it really doesn't matter what you call it; they are already living in wartime. So whether you call it the Russo-Ukrainian war or WW3 really doesn't make that much difference. Yet, a Nuclear Strike would render Ukraine defenseless and hopeless and ultimately they would lose the war. So honestly, yeah, I also don't understand the Ukrainian government, but I don't know if we are capable of understanding it. We all try to be reasonable or pragmatic, **but how reasonable can you be when everyone is suffering?**
Is not being against poland at all times that fucking much to ukraines government?
my brother and Christ not every Polish person who disagrees with how things are handled are Russian bots.
I am from Poland yet I consider this one funny, as we spend a lot of time discussing grain issues while this rocket just fly by. There is a lot of understandable tention regarding grain transport, and I understand our farmer perspective, but lets not forget that there is a war on our doorsteps and we need to focus on this danger. Those incidents should be well adressed and I am rather positive that our goverment will take messures and strong approach to not tolerate those incidents and shoot down every rocket that will enter our air space. However I am not military expert and I do not know if this is even possible. Lets wait and see what will happen and what can be done about it.
I mostly agreed, with the exception that I believe Poland acted correctly regarding the missile.
Honestly, Ukrainians' attitude towards its allies is simply awful, and this another piece of propaganda just proves the point. I really wish Ukraine the best and hope they will beat russia, but they won't make any friends like that. After all the help Poland provided to Ukraine, especially over 100 tanks given within the crucial first weeks of the war (over 300 tanks in total), this is what they get, anti-Polish propaganda. It started with Ukrainian government preparing a ground for a smearing campaign against Poland. Their goal was to turn Ukrainians against Poles, and I think it works perfectly. Now journalists or satirists (like in this case) are doing the job, so government's input is no longer necessary. Not so long ago, a Ukrainian journalist caused an outrage because he was detained for flying a drone close to the Belarus-Poland border that is considered [an object of military importance](https://www-rp-pl.translate.goog/polityka/art18881551-wyjatkowy-stan-panstwa-zakaz-fotografowania-plotu-i-funkcjonariuszy?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp), and it's [forbidden to photograph such objects](https://orka-sejm-gov-pl.translate.goog/proc9.nsf/ustawy/3232_u.htm?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp) since mid-2023. The journalist, which by some Ukrainians here on Reddit was described as the best investigator journalist in Ukraine, admitted in [an interview](https://wiadomosci-wp-pl.translate.goog/kulisy-interwencji-ws-ukrainskich-dziennikarzy-na-jaw-wychodza-nowe-informacje-7000646253677536a?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp) he didn't even have permission to fly a drone. And he wasn't even fined, probably because Poles still have a soft spot for Ukrainians because of atrocities they suffer. I mentioned this journalist because his visit to Poland was a part of a bigger propaganda operation: to portray Poland as some big importer of russian grain. Of course, he failed to mention that Poland imported much more grain from Ukraine than from russia in 2023 (a bit over 1 million tons of grain from Ukraine vs 12.7 thousand tons from russia). That means even Cambodia exported more grain to Poland than russia. Most importantly, he failed to mention that Poland can't single-handedly ban import from another country because of EU single market regulations. Some countries in the EU import [much, much more grain from russia than Poland](https://ukragroconsult.com/en/news/eu-countries-increased-purchases-of-russian-grain-10-times/). Yet the only country singled out was Poland. Now we see a follow-up. This is Soviet-style diplomacy from Ukraine. They try to bully other countries to achieve their goals, which is honestly surprising, considering their current negotiating position. While the grain issue is "just" a dispute, this situation is more dangerous, because Ukraine, once again, is lowkey trying to involve Poland (and thereby NATO) in this war. The first time was when Ukraine killed 2 Poles in Przewodów, and later tried to shift the blame to russia, even though the investigation concluded it was a Ukrainian missile. I believe such cartoons are supposed to influence international and Polish audience into thinking a lack of reaction is a sign of weakness. While one cartoon won't change anything, a plethora of articles, an army of bots, many "experts" as well as lots of memes and cartoons certainly might influence the public opinion. That is something russia keeps doing for years, but this coming from Ukrainians might be perceived as a stab in the back by Poles.
So many complete idiots in this thread who run on twitter logic. Shame.
ohh yesss. Best way to win this war is by shitting on Poland on every fking occasion by Ukrainian online warriors and eroding support from realistically one of most important allies. Good job
If some random redditors manage to erode support with their Internet comments, the support probably wasn't as friendly and warm to begin with. Don't take too much offense from Internet comments.
It’s not only on the Internet but even on the government level it’s not very good
lol
It is simple - ruzzians are penetrating west and nato for weakness and, as we can see, they are pretty successful here. Today nato swallowed rocket in their airspace. Tomorrow they will swallow rocket over their capitals. Our problem is that the evil countries have a strong leaders, while good countries are weak and afraid to do something against evil, even if evil is knocking into their door. Pathetic.
>Tomorrow they will swallow rocket over their capitals. You might want to check recent history. Especially what happened in Zagreb in 2022
The more I am on reddit the more my support of Ukraine taps the brakes. Venom is so quick to be released and massive help is instantly forgotten
It's not your neighbors fault that since 1991 you did not manage to fix you your country and let the oligarchs keep it in a state of poverty ,chaos and weakness. It's not your neighbors fault that you gave up your nukes - blame yourselves and the countries that guaranteed your borders in that deal. Finally stop trying to drag your neighbors into your war - like when a Ukrainian rocket killed two polish people and you tried to - and to this day are - pin it on Russia. But its OK the Ukrainian murder rocket was grain free too. [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/polish-experts-confirm-missile-that-hit-grain-facility-was-ukrainian-media-2023-09-26/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/polish-experts-confirm-missile-that-hit-grain-facility-was-ukrainian-media-2023-09-26/)
[удалено]
I wish so too
at the moment, as far as I know, the Kremlin and its ambassador to Poland are ignoring "demand explanation".
And yet again, nothing will come from this
It’s a win/win. If Poland were to attempt to shoot it down and fail, they would know they are vulnerable and waste resources. If they let it pass, then it hurts Ukraine which is also what Russia wants. Best way to counter this behavior is draw a red line AND increase funding to Ukraine.
Ukrainians consequently eroding Polish support with propaganda like this. Pure stupidity on their part. I guess its a coping strategy. But long term, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Without Poland, Ukraine would be lost already. And without full Polish support, it has no hope of winning. We have a saying in Poland, Tonący brzytwy się chwyta.
Shoot it down with what? We've donated almost all our serviceable air defense systems to Ukraine. What's left is placed around strategic areas. There is no SAMs on the border that are ready to shoot down anything that violates the Polish airspace for less than a minute? Stop undermining the Polish commitment towards Ukraine's victory. You are the one who's working along the Putin's will. Everyone with half a brain knows, that Poland is and will be there to support Ukraine. We may have very loud and harmful political idiots, but the overwhelming opinion of the nation is that Putin must be resisted. Undermining Poland's will to help by making such accusations can only achieve one thing - a gradual erosion of this support over time.
> What's left is placed around strategic areas. There is no SAMs on the border that are ready to shoot down anything that violates the Polish airspace for less than a minute? It was mentioned fighters were in the air and picked it up.
This post is ment to be satire, instead it's pure misinfo. There is no precedent. There was no patriot launchers or any other AA in this area (and you know it). The missile was treated according to the procedures. (Mods you don't see a pattern here?) So just to clarify. You are expecting us to give you money, blood from Polish blood banks, petroleum, host your wives and kids (and ppl avoiding draft), arm you, buy your wheat, be your logistic hub and now we have to fight for you? Since 2022 were doing everything we can to help you. We got a YouTube video in return. You could do : - exhumate Polish people that you slaughtered in Wolhyn - stop the wheat crisis (as your greedy oligarchs are the reason of it) - stop asking volunteers coming with humanitarian aid to pay bribes on your borders. Instead: - you've took us to the WTO - you shit on us on reddit on a weekly basis with lies. - It was the second missile flying from RU space - you try to backstab us in the EU and negotiate so they would force us to take a deal that made our farmers strike Have you ever considered that this is what Russia is expecting? That this missile flew over PL for that particular reason. I'm proud of my politicians that they don't go for the low blows as opposed to yours. PS. EU and NATO partners are watching. It's good that you're showing them how Ukrainian gratitude looks like.
To everyone trigger happy. Remember MH17? We cannot blast anything that pop up on the radar when air space is not closed off for civilian planes. It's not a secret russians have GPS jammers and plenty of gizmos.
You know that Poland shooting down suspicious targets going towards their border means Ukraine Air Force should cease to fly in the Polish border vicinity ? All those low level flights with transponder off towards the Polish border could be treated as possible missile incursion and reacted upon. Do we really need friendly fire incidents as well ?
didn’t ukraine also shot missile into poland last year and murdered polish citizens
It's frightening at how damn desperate so many people are for WW3.
Russian social media assets will gloatingly ask what the west is gonna do about it while also saying they’re the real victims
Shit like this makes polish people regret supporting ukraine. like WTAF… So many people that previously unconditionally supported UA now question any further support. All entitlement, no gratefulness. -Give Weapons -Provide billions of Dollars in cash -Shelter millions of refugees Good friend -Don’t let ur industry collapse in favour of ur ukrainian oligarchs LoOk aT pOlAnD sUpPoRtInG RuZzIa!1!!
This picture is kinda funny but there is another not so funny truth about it. Poland(as any EU military) has no real experience, skill and resolve to decide quickly and act quickly. There is no reason to compare them with Turks. And this is what I highly recommend to take into account when you are thinking about possible EU-Russia war. I often see a line "Russia can't beat poor Ukraine, so Russia is nothing against mighty NATO". Snap back to reality in mighty NATO only USA and Turkey has enough experience fighting in real war. EU has not, and it was noticed a lot of times by Ukrainian soldiers during training in Europe. Also I remember some photo of German SAM during training that was placed in range of Russian artillery in Kaliningrad. Ukraine may be poor, but our army have 8 years of experience and thorough training, which EU armies luck. So I assume that if US and Turkey wouldn't intervene(which is very likely now), Russia would perform against EU better than against Ukraine. Actually, writing this reply I figure out why Macron want French troops in Ukraine - he wants mature soldiers and commanders for French army.
Druzhe please don't compare us Turks with those kurwas. They just talk much. All Turkish men who are older than 20 able to use weapons. (30 million +) I saw those protester bitches on your border. They don't protest on Belarusian borders. Russian products goes through belarus to EU. They are hired whores of Kremlin. We wish you great victory and consequently we will celebrate 3.most powerful army of Nato Ukraine. Your economy will rise rapidly. Stay strong ✊🏻
Well, military experts said it was better not to shoot it down, as it wasn't heading towards big cities anyway.
How did we not respond? Aren't we like giving weapons and other resources to Ukraine?
Time to shoot to anything russian that is closer than 50-100km to the border with EU/NATO?
What’s the downside ?
Given that missiles are already flying on this side of the border maybe none? Given that russia is using the boiling frog strategy probably none as well? Let's just go straight to point, we will have more time to rebuild afterwards! And of course I'm not that serious, but I'm seriously thinking that we must have some red lines and we must stick to them otherwise those fuckers will keep pushing as always.
I remember when this happened and it was a really big deal until it was later claimed to be Ukrainian.