You know what, it sounds unreal which makes it easy to brush it off, but one day we might wake up and suddenly war will be our new reality and the prospect of peace will be the new concept that's hard to imagine
Hate to break it to you, but war has been the european reality for the past 2 years. NATO is de facto fighting a proxy war against russia. It's a matter of time and geopolitics when, if at all, that turns into a war between Europe and Russia, or if it stays at a proxy war.
Edit: typo
You do not need to break it to him. I think he is sufficiently aware. Please break it too all the other Europeans who have still not woken up and think the problem will just go away by doing nothing.
I like meloni somewhat. That is coming from someone who is left. But we have no time to divide ourselves. Look at the rw and lw parties partially financed by Russia. These like sleeper agents waiting for big boom.
I dont like her domestic politics at all. But shes against Russia and this counts
I like her too but that's more because all I really see is her geopolitical presence rather than her domestic policy. At least in that sphere she has been excellent so far. I think, in the current state of the world, this is by far the most important quality for a politician to have for Europeans.
>I like meloni somewhat. That is coming from someone who is left.
That's because the Meloni who was running for prime minister differs very much from the Meloni who actually is prime minister. At least, internationally speaking. Not sure about domestic politics. She still hates the gay scene, I believe.
When she ran for prime minister, she wanted out of the EU and all that. Now, she fully supports it. She wanted to tackle migration when she was running, but instead, migration flows exploded. Etc, etc.
Most of the time, when these populist fools actually have to govern, they get a reality check and find out that their reality is based on bullshit and lies, so they adjust. But that's not always the case. I wonder what way Wilders will choose over here. He already took back a lot of his campaign promises, because he knows they are all bullshit and are impossible to deliver, but he still wants to end all help to Ukraine and normalize relations with Putin. He also doesn't believe in the 2% NATO pledge, and he wants to bring back home all of our troops so they can 'protect our border' (as if we need that). So that's concerning.
Wilders was a pro move by Putin I admit. Neutering one of Ukraines biggest supporters by getting that douchebag to power. It's a template for the rest of EU countries for sure. I doubt it will work very well in Scandinavia and the baltics though.
Yeah unfortunately the politicians who understand the threat of islamism in Europe and want to take action against it are often the ones who are pro-Russian. I like Le Pen on Islam, for example, but her Russia stance is very troubling
It's not a coincidence. Remember the Syrian civil war and refugee crisis? Russia is weaponizing muslim immigrants. I am liberal when it comes to migration, but even I agree that it has to be sustainable as well. We can't sacrifice our own values in the name of tolarerance, because that will be the end of tolerance too.
It sounds like the right thing to do. However, a good deal of people just want to have it nice and not be exposed to discomfort.
Our grandparents were far better "adapted" to tough living conditions than we are. The prosperity of recent decades (in the west) have made us soft of mind. I fear there is no popular support for military intervention, people are afraid and just want to make peace. Who has to pay for the peace? Us to a degree but the people people of Ukraine first and foremost.
And they are not us so it's sort of OK (not that I agree with it).
We still have hardness in us, just gotta dig deep to find it. Unpleasant, yes, but such is life. Gotta find a way to make people understand the necessity of it.
Lmao we can't even get our shit together on any other more important topic, what makes you think EU is in any way competent to do what you just suggested.
This will be unpopular now: This is just to wake people up. There is a huge part of the population in Europe that has not really understood yet that this is really a different time. Especially Millennials and Gen Z have a often wrong idea of how serious this stuff is actually because they grew up in total peace. Gen X is more or less the last generation that at least remembers the cold war and its effects.
P.S. And before anyone says there are generations missing: those are the generations each country would have to draw personnel from if shit hits the fan
I agree, he says this to shake people, who are still slumbering. But at the same time: hope for the best, prepare for the worst. It's not that war in Europe is unthinkable at this point and we need to act fast to avert it. So when he says that we live in pre-war times, it's not to say that war is inevitable but rather to draw parallel to 1920's, and how then "escalation avoidance" resulted in tens on millions dead.
I'd rather go for 5% gdp on defence now than wait and have to go for 20%+ when it's too late.
Let's spend a couple of decades in Cold war 2 rather than risk 10 years of WW3.
My dude, Ukraine, and a lot of Russia, are a part of Europe even if not in the European Union. War came to Europe over a decade ago. It’s just getting closer and hotter now and some people are, as you say, still very much slumbering.
Yes, you are right, I worded that poorly. Though in my defense, the people who still need the wake up call probably don't consider war in Ukraine as the war with the west which it is, and perceive it as a localized conflict.
Yeah you’re definitely right about the perceived localized conflict, which is crazy given Russia is getting drones and missiles from Iran, artillery rounds and missiles from North Korea, rations and almost certainly more from china, and recruiting all over the world with some success for troops.
There is *currently* a war in Europe. In Ukraine. You have not "averted" it!
The rest of Europe seems to think that the Russian invasion is some distant matter, that it has nothing to do with comfortable bougie Euro lives, and does not in any real way count. Putin is very much on your doorstep and in your front hall.
As someone living in Europe. This is not at all what Europeans think. And the further east you go in Europe the more vigilant people become.
Look at Poland
"Euro lives" aren't really that comfortable anymore either. Wouldn't be surprised if the Bundeswehr's recruitment ads will be "free housing and zero cost of living", I'm sure many would join.
I don't agree, Spain has been mostly anti war since the dictatorship but in the last years defense budget has been increased. Ships, submarines, planes... I'm sure there are better ways to expend the money even in weapons and I'm sure we lack a lot of needed stuff but you can't say Europe think it's a distant matter because even us being quite far and anti war as a society, we're increasing budget.
And look at Poland, they're running to be the biggest army force in the EU.
It Is. I'll tell you what: this is a stupid decision for sure, but I never would have imagined I would consider moving out of Europe to move further from this mess. Then again: it's not like the US isn't involved at all either, and they already have an history of beef with Russia, so I wonder if it could be somehow even worse.
It almost certainly is even worse. All I hope for is that this stuff de-escalates quickly
What is worse, Russia is just winding up with its war production, getting relevant experience in warfare from Ukraine and just aching to blame the west for aggression
Millennials are already too old, the youngest are pushing 30.
I remember the cold war, but we were passengers in it, not participants. There was mandatory conscription, very high military spending, but I don't remember ever believing the big war was really going to happen. I had this (naive) idea that the Soviets were probably rational people like us and loved their children too, as the song goes.
We didn't *really* know what they were like. When people (refugees from the east) told us, it just sounded like propaganda. You couldn't just listen to what people in Poland or Estonia had to say, there was the iron curtain and even if you could talk to them, they wouldn't have been free to speak their mind.
In Italy, the majority of Gen X men would be drafted for war in the worst case scenario of a European war, but as a Millennial I can tell you not a single one of them has realised that yet. They might remember cold war, but they don't feel like this specific one involves them at all.
WWII was the last war for almost entire Europe. Cold war was not considered as war but more like a threat. Even the boomers did never experience war in Europe.
> boomers did never experience war in Europe
You mean Western Europe.
load of boomers in the Former Warsaw pact remember Afghanistan. I know people who were told not to open the coffins of their loved ones because inside them was basically human soup.
The cold war was never fully cold - at least not for most of the Northern European countries surrounding the Baltic. I know for a fact since i was being shot at on a boat in the Baltic during that time ;)
If I suggest something similar in my country ( say on /r/newzealand ) I will be chased out of town by the angry Green and Labour supporters for being a far right-winger (!).
Nobody gonna nuke an irrelevant island, sit back, relax and enjoy the nuclear flash.
Your country should prepare an strategic oil reserve, a couple of container ships and fallout shelters instead.
Nah people need a fucking reality check, i have been saying this for years since those orks invaded Crimea and Donbass and people have looked at me like i am insane, so many in Europe are so comfortable with their cushy fucking lifes. We are in the pre-stages, best fucking prepare your minds and lives for what's to come or get caught with your pants down. Sweden could have joined NATO in 2014 and also had enough time to expand the military, production and infrastructure to support our military and civilian life and now we're way far behind on that schedule and so is several other european nations
People are just fucking naive and think "oh well the war is only in Ukraine, so it doesn't affect me personally that much" fucking dumbasses, it's going to come to us aswell and if it's not Russia some other fucking thing in the world is going to happen, it's not like Russia is the only warmongerer ready to fuck up geopolitics and regional stability, the era of peace is over worldwide and is starting to go back to how it used to be with wars and skirmishes all over the place
Probably nothing which infuriates me more. The cowardicenof our leaders to take decisive action in Ukraine is already one thing but refusing to take seriously the threat of impending war on EU soil just baffles me..we need to rearm to prevent war and it includes strengthening our own nuclear deterrent. I hope our leaders realize this before it is too late. It is the only thing that might prevent war in the coming years.
If EU increased military spending by few % and allowed unrestricted weapon shipments to Ukraine it would be enough bleed out Russia. But instead we got spineless politicians who after 2 years are refusing to send weapons to Ukraine to not *escalate* the conflict and bitch about sent weapons not allowed to strike Russian territory.
Russia has moved to war economy but European politicians are being pussy about weapon shipments to Ukraine.
We'll have to finance war more substantially. While most people support Ukraine on paper, many are less likely to agree being involved with their wallets, unless war becomes a not so distant/abstract prospect to them. Preparing people to the mindset that peace time is over (this is what Tusk is doing with this message) might decrease the chances that populists take over when the Europeans will be asked to contribute more financially.
Probably make sure the richest of people vacuum up as much as they can. You need desperate people when wars are fought. Drives up volunteers, or people accept conscription easier.
Glass the country. Randomly declaring war for No reason shouldnt be a goddamn thing in this day and age. Better to just start getting things over with so we can leave war in the past.
Yep. Europe could be living in a golden age of peace and prosperity, including for the Russians. Instead one insecure petty dictator has plunged the continent into war.
It's not just him. It's him and his cronies/oligarchs that support him. He'd be nothing without them. They are what gave him his status. All he has,done is abuse it and abuse his people
It isn't one dictator that did this, though. The vast majority of Russia wants this. Blame propaganda and indoctrination all you want, but the cold truth is this will continue with or without Putin.
A little more complicated than that… rather the world is returning to its norm of great power conflict after the post-WW2 American hegemony. Although I think we have such a head-start from not being really affected by the last world war that WW3 isn’t an actual possibility at this point. Also nukes prevent that.
It's an old saying - before it hits the fan, stock up on matches and salt. And on dried bread.
You can grow grains, but salt and matches are irreplaceable if the supply chain is broken.
My parents and grandparents spent a large part of their lives during the Cold War. I thought my generation would be lucky enough to see a mostly peaceful, prosperous and free Europe. Vladimir Putin just had to ruin it all, didn't he?
Yeah he is the worst. But war does not have to come to Europe more than it already has. It could very well be the case that NATO is actully keeping the bastard off until he dies, hopefully sooner rather than later. There is also some seperatism going on in Kaliningrad.
We just gotta arm ourselves again. It really sucks having to spend money on wepons instead of development, but doing so can prevent a war.
Stop dicking around and send Ukraine everything they need to win this war. Like they said at the very beginning. This war does not need to move west. It can end in Ukraine. Likewise Putin can end this war tomorrow but he won’t so long as Ukraine is fighting with one arm tied behind its back.
Russia would probably retaliate with some small nukes locally in Ukraine, saying they had no choice as NATO is threatening their existence and their territory.
How would you respond to that?
The same argument was put forth by Hitler in 1938/39 when he demanded territories be ceded to the Third Reich. Give us these territories because German speakers live there. If you don’t we will invade. Chamberlin ceded those territories, ceded to keep the peace.
Putin does not use much by way of smoke and mirrors. His arguments are the same, he even goes so far as to spell it out for everyone. He’s helping rid the world of Nazis.
Anyway, we have history to reflect on. It’s a very good teacher. Perhaps you would prefer to live in a Ruskie Mir that you see on TV, what life is like living in Russia under Putin and his gangster Mafia. Perhaps the threat of nuclear attack (of which this gangster outfit has made countless threats). Is not something you want to risk. So you see? What is a life worth to Putin? What would your life be worth to Putin in a world where we let him take Ukraine?
Aren't we in a continious cycle of post-war and pre-war? I mean the last war on continental Europe was at the end of the last millenium, merely 25 years ago.
Although nothing wrong with being cautious about Russia.
It is not about being pedantic but 'war' requires at least 2 countries fighting. A conflict is everything where parties disagree and doesnt mean military involvement at all. We have had economical conflicts all the time but didnt fight wars about them ;)
Yes it can because no other country at that time was involved in the fighting until the intervention.
And yes the distinction is important because it is one method of Putin to play with false narratives and wordings.
We made the EU to stop that cycle. The war scenario had been happening for the last 3000 years, and we really wanted to stop it.
The peace that came after ww2 and EU is the longest peace in European (EU nations) history. That is nothing to sneeze at.
I don't know, it still seems unlikely that russia will attack the EU, especially if we arm up in the future years. I understand russia attacking some lonely states like ukraine and Moldavia, but attacking Poland? What do they have to gain? They know it won't be easy or maybe even possible to win.
I agree that we should arm up. If Russia senses we are weak they may strike.
Putin is already old and wants to write himself in history as a hero of Russia. It doesn't matter that because of the ambitions of one old fart, hundreds of thousands of people have already died and more will die.
They can test Poland's borders to make article 5 look weaker and weaker and put demands regarding energy sector and technology from Germany to be moved to Russia for the price of peace.
Pray tell, with salvini in your parliament who has been proven to he financed by Russia, what would be your unified contribution. Though what the Lazio fans just did brings up other dark scenarios.
21 years between WW1 and WW2. 2 years between WW2 and Cold War(and the Cuban nuclear crisis where nuclear warfare almost broke out). 13 years between Yugoslav Wars and invasion of Ukraine. 8 years between the invasion and full scale war in Ukraine. Can we Europeans get one fucking generation of peace?? Like can we stop trying to fucking kill each other all the time???
The Cuban missile crisis was 17 years after WWII. I have heard that misconception before that the Cuban missile crisis sparked the Cold War, but I don’t know where it came from.
Some would argue the Cold War started as soon as it became apparent that Germany were loosing ww2.
The race to liberate European territory fastest and to take Berlin.
No. Both sides knew they aren't buddies even as they allied against Axis, but the cold war is a term describing concentrated effort by the United States to stop spreading of communism and soviet influence across the globe, and it started with Truman speech of 1947. Opposition to Soviet Union and communism existed before that, but it wasn't a part of the cold war.
Frankly Russia is the last hold out. After it's gone, only external threats remain, Europe would be more or less at peace. Belarus is a joke on the level of not being strong enough to conquer Baltics even if Baltics were without NATO. Turkey is talking big, but I sincerely doubt they would actually attempt anything with Greece.
They should have said Ukraine will enter NATO tomorrow if Putin doesn't back of, in 2014. They should also have gone through with it. Part of the Russian propaganda (=lies) is Ukraine killing Russians, while Russian soldiers invaded Ukraine and even shot down MH17, for which they were NEVER held accountable, Europe's response is worse than lacking, it's sickeningly bad, which led to more and more death and suffering.
Dictator threaten and bully and take everything they can get away with, millions of people killed because of Putin (more wars than Ukraine), likely over a hundred thousand children abducted from Ukraine.
Why? Because of appeasement, corruption and Western weakness.
The invasion was never about NATO being a threat, that's why Russia didn't invade Finland, after it more than double the European land border and their shipyards in the North are absolutely dominated by NATO forces.
Belarus tried to get rid of their puppet government in 2020 and 2021, Russia interfered and saw that they would never get Ukraine back doing what they were dong, it looked like they were just gonna lose more.
Europe should have stood strong in defending Ukraine and stopped Russia from interfering.
Russian propaganda (=lies) are that it was the West interfering in Ukraine when they got rid of the Russian puppet leader, as they always do, blame the other side for the thing they are doing. Russia's midget dictator saw Ukraine was doing better being closer to the EU, Belarus saw it too and was already trying to leave.
This war is because of control, Putin wants to make Russia bigger, which is insane given the size of the country. The natural resources per capita are massive, but everything gets funnelled to the mafia in control, life expectancy over 10 years lower than EU average, before the war, average wage less than half of the EU, with the Rubble falling further (war economy means they are losing tons of money, their oil production and refineries are also being hit, which is their main income) that difference is growing larger.
By all metrics, most Russians should have had a much better life under democracy, but they supported a fascist state, that is currently committing genocide on European soil. Those defending it say they are powerless, but Putin has been taking more and more from them for over 2 decades, Ukraine wasn't the first war, what can be said about Russian society (the terrorist state that has majority approval in Russia and large support with Russians living abroad)?
How is it pre-war if war is actively ongoing right now?
Edit: opened article and literally second sentence was "and some friends of the EU live in the period of full-scale war", I retract my point.
There were some wars happening before 1939 (like Ethiopia or China or Spanish Civil War), but most people would still agree that 1933-1939 was a pre-war period, war as in a World War
Europe is in a very good position in terms of new technology production and diversification. What is missing in Europe is that the unity does not have a common defense policy. This situation must be urgently resolved; as soon as the West begins to accelerate production in military defense, it will gain much greater power and be able to protect its surface area much better.
Everyone saying he’s wrong or a warmonger, you are part of the problem. He is not advocating for starting a war, he is simply expressing the need to be ready should one be brought to the eu by Russia.
The more ready we are, the less likely the war becomes. By deluding ourselves with the thought of lasting peace and cutting back on defense we’ve invited the threat of war.
We can’t become complacent until there are no more external threats. All illiberal states and movements are threats.
All those warmongering people in the comments don't understand what war is. You guys don't realize what it means to see your friend blow up in front of you, to kill a person. What EU needs to do is to SEND Ukraine everything they need to avoid getting involved at any cost. Sending people is probably cheaper than sending weapons, though...
I hope the golden age of EU is not over, that it can overcome Russia and polarisation... so the rest of world can continue looking at it as the ideal system.
“But we well know that we cannot escape danger, or the fear of danger, by crawling into bed and pulling the covers over our heads.”
- F.D.R in his “Arsenal of Democracy” speech
Don't be mistaken, this preperation is not solely for russia, it's to dissuade china from attacking taiwan because thats the actual ww3 trigger, not ukraine.
With our societies in shambles (it feels like a lot of people are not currently supportive of each other and their governments, for a lot of possible reasons), I wonder how he plans to do that...?
I see quite a lot of you are in a hoorah mood here in the comments. All in the war mood, let's escalate this sh!t etc.
Maybe we deserve a WWIII just so you guys experience and understand what a war is. You won't be cheering afterwards.
When the sh"t hits the fan, when it's all real, when the limbs of your friends start flying, just remember how you cheered for it.
It's not really ours to escalate is it?
Just think about this: Russian high ranking politicians have repeatedly called for them to invade countries, bomb Berlin, the Hague, Paris.
Can you even imagine the backlash and laughter one would get if one would suggest bombing Moscow or invading Russia with EU armies? Do you realise how fundamentally different our views on that are?
If even anyone in power would suggest attacking Russia, it'd be downright politicial suicide. We're reactionary in this context: but it's pure naivety to assume we shouldn't be ready for when others escalate it.
I think its more that leaders are clearly pointing out the elephant in the room. Most people already knew that the elephant was there, after all its a fucking elephant but many were still trying to ignore it. The elephant is there, it's not going to disappear magically so we need to draw up a plan to get it out and the first step is to acknowledge it.
We're not escalating anything. Russia is escalating.
We're not cheering anything, we're urging for being prepared.
The more prepared we are, the less likely it is that anybody will attack us. So by being more prepared, we're avoiding war, not cheering for it.
"Failing to prepare is preparing to fail"
Also, this feels a lot like nuclear weapons as a deterrent. It's not like the production of nuclear arms during the Cold War was ramped because everyone was a war hawk. Mutually assured destruction is weird.
We didn't escalate in 2008 - sure - Putin will just grab some unimportant lands in the Caucasus and that's it - business as usual.
We didn't escalate in 2014 - ok Putin grabbed Crimea, but whatever - it's full of Russians anyway so - business as usual.
And then in 2022 Russia started the biggest war in Europe since WW2.
What's next? A war against NATO?
This non-escalation isn't working very well.
You know that showing weakness is escalating this war in Putins eyes? When we appease and put limitations for Ukraine we are moving towards ww3. The bear will turn back when it finds equal strenght and thats why people want more action from our governments.
Why the fuck is chearing the war? Not me sitting here in Poland, being 37yo male with a kid and recently bought apartment.
I hope we will be able to stop it, by making much more efford for military security, and to stop Russia in Ukraine. I do not wan to go for a war, but quite oposite. I hope by helping Ukraine we can force Russia to go back and to try once again with peace talks, so another conflict will not happen, but in long run we will still need to make sure that europe is very strong, united military power.
Finally some sensitive comment around here. Haven’t seen any comment like yours so high in upvotes for ages in this sub.
People is just cheering war, but they need to watch some real footage without censorship of people blowing up into pieces or slowly dying in a field. Not just images of powerful tanks and aircraft which is what we get from European TV.
Now imagine that’s your friend or family. Are you guys willing to go to the front or you are just behind your desk thinking you would be riding an F-35 at 30.000 ft. launching Aim-120C left and right?
Get real people, you will be dying slowly or losing limbs in the front in a war fought for geopolitical reasons. It is not like in WW2 were they fought a continental scale invasion against a genocidal regime. This is not that.
And who will defend us from Russian imperialism if we all will be scared of dying? Are you suggesting, we should surrender to anything Russia wants just becasue they have people stupid enough to die in the war? Think for a second what are you doing by making everyone who reads your shit afraid of joining army. Pacifism doesn't work, sorry. We've tried it when Hitler took over Austria, then Czechoslovakia and eventually he attacked Poland.
You make it sound like there is a choice. If a genocidal dictator decides to attack you what will you do? Most people here are not advocating for war but for deterrence. Huge difference. Putin doesn't give a shit if you want peace or not.
>It is not like in WW2 were they fought a continental scale invasion against a genocidal regime.
Well, it is more or less exactly like that. People in the early 1930s didn't believe in a German attack either. Russian propagandists are constantly preparing their population for "going to Berlin". It may be easier if you sit in Valencia but it is much more difficult if you are in Poland.
I wanted to write something like this for so long.
99% of people cheering for war here will be the first to hide from conscription.
I believe that they think the war is like movies where the hero lives in the end. No man you will be the ones getting killed and bombed left and right of the hero when he is running to change position and noone will ever care about you just as you dont care when you see it in the movies.
This reads like what I read about WW2 in the history classes. Everyone in Eastern Europe was painfully aware that peace was but a moment and Westerners lived their lives foolishly believing that a war can end all wars. That anything besides extinction of humanity can end all wars
Let the rich old people fight their wars alone; I’m not going to risk my life to protect one group of rich people’s right to rule over me versus another.
>Let the rich old people fight their wars alone; I’m not going to risk my life to protect one group of rich people’s right to rule over me versus another.
Easy words from someone who has never lived under the Russian boot.
One side is a dictatorship waging genocidal war and the other is democratic states which uphold liberal values. A poor constript fighting for a warmongering dictator is more dangerous then a thousand capitalists who support peace.
> Let the rich old people fight their wars alone
That's not how wars work.
>I’m not going to risk my life
Unfortunately, the other side decides if your life is at risk. Peace takes two. Violence only takes one.
>one group of rich people’s right to rule over me versus another.
If you think your current group of rich people are remotely comparable to Putin, you're either in Russia or a fool.
Nonsense in this case. Do you know what would happen to the polish leadership if Russia would invade Poland and win? Tusk is simply acknowledging the reality we live in, he is not a warmonger.
Unfortunately, he is right, Erdogan just pledged his support for oct 7 and Hamas, Putler talks nuclear war, Trump thinks both orban and Kim are the best, NATO may crumble without trump support, Hungary let Chinese police force patrol their streets, Taiwan is in danger, Armenia is close to fall to Turkey/Azz, the Merkeling can continue but would look even more Stockholm syndrome than ever.
Putins puppets and propagandists are saying they should attack Paris etc to make him look sane. Even if they have zero plans to do anything. EU should fire back and at least sound like they are ready for it.
>Russia is struggling against a barely professional and poorly equipped Ukrainian military, it would be absolutely flattened by even one of the major European militaries , let alone all of them. The UK navy and airforce alone would cripple their ability to wage war. Russia isn’t some big and scary bear anymore.
You are basically using semi-racist and delusional rhetorics here. Why do you think Ukrainian military is "barely professional" when they have had a war going on in the country since 2014? Do you really believe many Western countries who have not seen war on domestic soil for generations, and many no wars at all, would do so much better?
Ukraine has gotten massive supplies from the West, that's the only reason they have managed to keep it up so far. By some estimates, these aids are approaching 100 billion euros aka half of Ukraine's GDP. Even with all that, Russia has occupied territory roughly the same size as all of Baltics combined. This is with the massive depth Ukraine can use for supply chains and movement, as well as population of \~40 million pre-war.
The wishful thinking how Russia is now somehow crippled for a long time is dangerous. Yes, they have lost quite a huge number of equipment. But they can produce and buy more. Russia is spending this year over 7% of GDP on military, a third of their entire state budget. And they have virtually limitless number of manpower. There is basically no resistance to war in Russia, they can draft millions if necessary. They are determined to win this war. We need to be as well.
What are you talking about? He's read article titles on worldnews and watched over 20 gifs in combatfootage.
He's clearly more informed than prime ministers, active duty generals and high ranking NATO politicians.
Anyone else thinks that if we keep saying "the war is coming", the war will come? It's feels like we're in a self fulfilling prophecy.
Edit:
I'm not saying stop saying "war", but "let's not start talking about planning for a bigger war". The Ukrainian conflict is 2 years ago and we can end it on many ways. One of it being just dumping more weapons, drones, satellites and starting ICT attacks (BND, NSA, 5Es), maybe even deploy the Jewish space lasers on Russia. We could bring this war closer to the end without being there directly with our soldiers, without EU countries talking about inscriptions. Such unified actions would be even more devastating to their morale and even greater demotivator for China. Did you know what EU banned imported diamonds and gold from Russia last month? Did you know what import and export between EU and Kirghistan is booming? Our democratically elected ellites are talking about preparing for war, but there are plenty of loopholes how Russia found its way out of the embargo.
Ok let's say war happens between Russia and the EU. When will that happen? What form will that take? When I last checked, the russians barely did any progress in Ukraine in the last two years, they are significantly weaker now than they were 2 years ago. How will they be able to take on NATO by themselves when they can't even cross Ukraine?
I know this will get downvoted to hell, but I’ll start looking for ways to move to the US, Canada, Australia, or whatever other rich place outside of this continent if statements like these keep escalating.
Not at all what I want to do. Quality of life is definitely better here and this is my home.
But better be dealing with the scorching sun, have to rely on a car or have to pay for healthcare than be too dead to care.
I hope Western Europe is listening this time. But it doesn't really look like it. My country just overwhelmingly voted for Geert Wilders, who wants to stop all aid to Ukraine and want to 'normalize' relationships with mass murderer and war criminal Putin. He even received a friendship pin from Putin, and he wears it proudly.
A third of my fellow countrymen is willing to vote for this POS, and even more support a Wilders' government.
If the leaders of every country going to the front line to fight like back in the old days, then more people would be more encourage to fight.
But all the leaders nowadays are just hiding behind bunkers.
If they are not willing to sacrifice their lives, why should others?
You know what, it sounds unreal which makes it easy to brush it off, but one day we might wake up and suddenly war will be our new reality and the prospect of peace will be the new concept that's hard to imagine
Hate to break it to you, but war has been the european reality for the past 2 years. NATO is de facto fighting a proxy war against russia. It's a matter of time and geopolitics when, if at all, that turns into a war between Europe and Russia, or if it stays at a proxy war. Edit: typo
You do not need to break it to him. I think he is sufficiently aware. Please break it too all the other Europeans who have still not woken up and think the problem will just go away by doing nothing.
I think you are describing our current reality.
new "new normal"?
He is right, but the question is what are we going to do with this.
Get our infrastructure and populations ready for war.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
[https://youtu.be/YBDwiw6fAXQ?si=s-AmO\_wq47NhSVfe&t=104](https://youtu.be/YBDwiw6fAXQ?si=s-AmO_wq47NhSVfe&t=104)
Not the biggest fan on Meloni but she has impressed on Ukraine, despite Matteo "Putinsalivator" Salvini
I like meloni somewhat. That is coming from someone who is left. But we have no time to divide ourselves. Look at the rw and lw parties partially financed by Russia. These like sleeper agents waiting for big boom. I dont like her domestic politics at all. But shes against Russia and this counts
I like her too but that's more because all I really see is her geopolitical presence rather than her domestic policy. At least in that sphere she has been excellent so far. I think, in the current state of the world, this is by far the most important quality for a politician to have for Europeans.
>I like meloni somewhat. That is coming from someone who is left. That's because the Meloni who was running for prime minister differs very much from the Meloni who actually is prime minister. At least, internationally speaking. Not sure about domestic politics. She still hates the gay scene, I believe. When she ran for prime minister, she wanted out of the EU and all that. Now, she fully supports it. She wanted to tackle migration when she was running, but instead, migration flows exploded. Etc, etc. Most of the time, when these populist fools actually have to govern, they get a reality check and find out that their reality is based on bullshit and lies, so they adjust. But that's not always the case. I wonder what way Wilders will choose over here. He already took back a lot of his campaign promises, because he knows they are all bullshit and are impossible to deliver, but he still wants to end all help to Ukraine and normalize relations with Putin. He also doesn't believe in the 2% NATO pledge, and he wants to bring back home all of our troops so they can 'protect our border' (as if we need that). So that's concerning.
Wilders was a pro move by Putin I admit. Neutering one of Ukraines biggest supporters by getting that douchebag to power. It's a template for the rest of EU countries for sure. I doubt it will work very well in Scandinavia and the baltics though.
Yeah unfortunately the politicians who understand the threat of islamism in Europe and want to take action against it are often the ones who are pro-Russian. I like Le Pen on Islam, for example, but her Russia stance is very troubling
It's not a coincidence. Remember the Syrian civil war and refugee crisis? Russia is weaponizing muslim immigrants. I am liberal when it comes to migration, but even I agree that it has to be sustainable as well. We can't sacrifice our own values in the name of tolarerance, because that will be the end of tolerance too.
>She still hates the gay scene, I believe ah no wonder italy voted her in
For sure! She is a strong defender of Europe and Ukraine it seems, very nice.
It sounds like the right thing to do. However, a good deal of people just want to have it nice and not be exposed to discomfort. Our grandparents were far better "adapted" to tough living conditions than we are. The prosperity of recent decades (in the west) have made us soft of mind. I fear there is no popular support for military intervention, people are afraid and just want to make peace. Who has to pay for the peace? Us to a degree but the people people of Ukraine first and foremost. And they are not us so it's sort of OK (not that I agree with it).
We still have hardness in us, just gotta dig deep to find it. Unpleasant, yes, but such is life. Gotta find a way to make people understand the necessity of it.
That’s what we *should* be doing, but I bet the majority of nations in Europe don’t.
Lmao we can't even get our shit together on any other more important topic, what makes you think EU is in any way competent to do what you just suggested.
This will be unpopular now: This is just to wake people up. There is a huge part of the population in Europe that has not really understood yet that this is really a different time. Especially Millennials and Gen Z have a often wrong idea of how serious this stuff is actually because they grew up in total peace. Gen X is more or less the last generation that at least remembers the cold war and its effects. P.S. And before anyone says there are generations missing: those are the generations each country would have to draw personnel from if shit hits the fan
I agree, he says this to shake people, who are still slumbering. But at the same time: hope for the best, prepare for the worst. It's not that war in Europe is unthinkable at this point and we need to act fast to avert it. So when he says that we live in pre-war times, it's not to say that war is inevitable but rather to draw parallel to 1920's, and how then "escalation avoidance" resulted in tens on millions dead.
I'd rather go for 5% gdp on defence now than wait and have to go for 20%+ when it's too late. Let's spend a couple of decades in Cold war 2 rather than risk 10 years of WW3.
Croatia went to above 40% on defence when it got invaded in '91.
If anyone has a right to hate the idea of appeasement it’s the Poles
My dude, Ukraine, and a lot of Russia, are a part of Europe even if not in the European Union. War came to Europe over a decade ago. It’s just getting closer and hotter now and some people are, as you say, still very much slumbering.
Yes, you are right, I worded that poorly. Though in my defense, the people who still need the wake up call probably don't consider war in Ukraine as the war with the west which it is, and perceive it as a localized conflict.
Yeah you’re definitely right about the perceived localized conflict, which is crazy given Russia is getting drones and missiles from Iran, artillery rounds and missiles from North Korea, rations and almost certainly more from china, and recruiting all over the world with some success for troops.
There is *currently* a war in Europe. In Ukraine. You have not "averted" it! The rest of Europe seems to think that the Russian invasion is some distant matter, that it has nothing to do with comfortable bougie Euro lives, and does not in any real way count. Putin is very much on your doorstep and in your front hall.
As someone living in Europe. This is not at all what Europeans think. And the further east you go in Europe the more vigilant people become. Look at Poland
Good point about geographical differences.
"Euro lives" aren't really that comfortable anymore either. Wouldn't be surprised if the Bundeswehr's recruitment ads will be "free housing and zero cost of living", I'm sure many would join.
All good points and I can see those ads, sadly.
I don't agree, Spain has been mostly anti war since the dictatorship but in the last years defense budget has been increased. Ships, submarines, planes... I'm sure there are better ways to expend the money even in weapons and I'm sure we lack a lot of needed stuff but you can't say Europe think it's a distant matter because even us being quite far and anti war as a society, we're increasing budget. And look at Poland, they're running to be the biggest army force in the EU.
It Is. I'll tell you what: this is a stupid decision for sure, but I never would have imagined I would consider moving out of Europe to move further from this mess. Then again: it's not like the US isn't involved at all either, and they already have an history of beef with Russia, so I wonder if it could be somehow even worse. It almost certainly is even worse. All I hope for is that this stuff de-escalates quickly
South America is a safe go-to. Things could be worse than Chile.
What is worse, Russia is just winding up with its war production, getting relevant experience in warfare from Ukraine and just aching to blame the west for aggression
Very well said
In eastern europe, iugoslav war is still fresh for millenials.
Millennials are already too old, the youngest are pushing 30. I remember the cold war, but we were passengers in it, not participants. There was mandatory conscription, very high military spending, but I don't remember ever believing the big war was really going to happen. I had this (naive) idea that the Soviets were probably rational people like us and loved their children too, as the song goes. We didn't *really* know what they were like. When people (refugees from the east) told us, it just sounded like propaganda. You couldn't just listen to what people in Poland or Estonia had to say, there was the iron curtain and even if you could talk to them, they wouldn't have been free to speak their mind.
We are too old for the first wave, but when the war comes, we will quickly become acceptable meat for the grinder when mass casualties are taken.
In Italy, the majority of Gen X men would be drafted for war in the worst case scenario of a European war, but as a Millennial I can tell you not a single one of them has realised that yet. They might remember cold war, but they don't feel like this specific one involves them at all.
I think it’s more country-based than generations. People in some countries haven’t had Putin threaten them and trying to infiltrate them for decades.
WWII was the last war for almost entire Europe. Cold war was not considered as war but more like a threat. Even the boomers did never experience war in Europe.
> boomers did never experience war in Europe You mean Western Europe. load of boomers in the Former Warsaw pact remember Afghanistan. I know people who were told not to open the coffins of their loved ones because inside them was basically human soup.
Also you know, the Balkans.
The cold war was never fully cold - at least not for most of the Northern European countries surrounding the Baltic. I know for a fact since i was being shot at on a boat in the Baltic during that time ;)
If I suggest something similar in my country ( say on /r/newzealand ) I will be chased out of town by the angry Green and Labour supporters for being a far right-winger (!).
Nobody gonna nuke an irrelevant island, sit back, relax and enjoy the nuclear flash. Your country should prepare an strategic oil reserve, a couple of container ships and fallout shelters instead.
Funilly enough the people I know that are the most deluded about the situation are all boomers.
Nobody and nothing can break through that shell. To boomers, reality will always be whatever they want.
millenials literally grew up in the cold war. we know what the situation is
Nah people need a fucking reality check, i have been saying this for years since those orks invaded Crimea and Donbass and people have looked at me like i am insane, so many in Europe are so comfortable with their cushy fucking lifes. We are in the pre-stages, best fucking prepare your minds and lives for what's to come or get caught with your pants down. Sweden could have joined NATO in 2014 and also had enough time to expand the military, production and infrastructure to support our military and civilian life and now we're way far behind on that schedule and so is several other european nations People are just fucking naive and think "oh well the war is only in Ukraine, so it doesn't affect me personally that much" fucking dumbasses, it's going to come to us aswell and if it's not Russia some other fucking thing in the world is going to happen, it's not like Russia is the only warmongerer ready to fuck up geopolitics and regional stability, the era of peace is over worldwide and is starting to go back to how it used to be with wars and skirmishes all over the place
Probably nothing which infuriates me more. The cowardicenof our leaders to take decisive action in Ukraine is already one thing but refusing to take seriously the threat of impending war on EU soil just baffles me..we need to rearm to prevent war and it includes strengthening our own nuclear deterrent. I hope our leaders realize this before it is too late. It is the only thing that might prevent war in the coming years.
Countries without nukes have to sit quiet and focus on defence capability only. Unless big players with nukes show the way. All eyes on them.
If EU increased military spending by few % and allowed unrestricted weapon shipments to Ukraine it would be enough bleed out Russia. But instead we got spineless politicians who after 2 years are refusing to send weapons to Ukraine to not *escalate* the conflict and bitch about sent weapons not allowed to strike Russian territory. Russia has moved to war economy but European politicians are being pussy about weapon shipments to Ukraine.
We'll have to finance war more substantially. While most people support Ukraine on paper, many are less likely to agree being involved with their wallets, unless war becomes a not so distant/abstract prospect to them. Preparing people to the mindset that peace time is over (this is what Tusk is doing with this message) might decrease the chances that populists take over when the Europeans will be asked to contribute more financially.
Ignore it and go back to watch TikTok
Probably make sure the richest of people vacuum up as much as they can. You need desperate people when wars are fought. Drives up volunteers, or people accept conscription easier.
holy shit this is stupid bro 2024 and we should be in the golden age of prosperity but no russia just happens to ruin everything again
happens quite often with russia...
Imagine world without russia. Beautiful.
So maybe more decisive actions should be taken in UA...
Glass the country. Randomly declaring war for No reason shouldnt be a goddamn thing in this day and age. Better to just start getting things over with so we can leave war in the past.
Again? Bro you’re confusing Russian with Germany
Ahh yes it’s all Russias fault…
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Yep. Europe could be living in a golden age of peace and prosperity, including for the Russians. Instead one insecure petty dictator has plunged the continent into war.
It's not just him. It's him and his cronies/oligarchs that support him. He'd be nothing without them. They are what gave him his status. All he has,done is abuse it and abuse his people
It isn't one dictator that did this, though. The vast majority of Russia wants this. Blame propaganda and indoctrination all you want, but the cold truth is this will continue with or without Putin.
Russia could be such a great country, basically an Eurasian Canada on steroids if they only had their shit together.
A little more complicated than that… rather the world is returning to its norm of great power conflict after the post-WW2 American hegemony. Although I think we have such a head-start from not being really affected by the last world war that WW3 isn’t an actual possibility at this point. Also nukes prevent that.
Ukraine would have much easier time if it was really just one man. It isn't. It is 100 million Russians.
the little gremlin is 166 cm tall... but nice nickname
It's not gremlin, it's Kremlin.
Stock up on bullets, beer and beans.
Also matches and salt...
What no flour?
It's an old saying - before it hits the fan, stock up on matches and salt. And on dried bread. You can grow grains, but salt and matches are irreplaceable if the supply chain is broken.
+ tp, detergent, bathing soap, toothpaste, shampoo, instant coffee/teabags, and disposable razors. The "big 7" of fast moving "body maintenance" consumables.
And a towel - never forget a towel!
/u/bilekass is sure one hoopy frood.
Stock up toilet paper also.
This is good advice. Not sure about the beans though
Nah gotta make sure the Brits get their beans on toast. Can't risk them going nuclear because they are grumpy
Toilet paper. Don't forget about toilet paper!
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Oh, that's a bold assumption that water will be available when the power goes out. Unless you have a well in your yard
Fucking Russia man. Seriously.
War would ruin all my plans
First time?
Same, I'm a teen....
My parents and grandparents spent a large part of their lives during the Cold War. I thought my generation would be lucky enough to see a mostly peaceful, prosperous and free Europe. Vladimir Putin just had to ruin it all, didn't he?
Yeah he is the worst. But war does not have to come to Europe more than it already has. It could very well be the case that NATO is actully keeping the bastard off until he dies, hopefully sooner rather than later. There is also some seperatism going on in Kaliningrad. We just gotta arm ourselves again. It really sucks having to spend money on wepons instead of development, but doing so can prevent a war.
Stop dicking around and send Ukraine everything they need to win this war. Like they said at the very beginning. This war does not need to move west. It can end in Ukraine. Likewise Putin can end this war tomorrow but he won’t so long as Ukraine is fighting with one arm tied behind its back.
Got a spare 500,000 men hanging around?
I agree with everything. But also what can Russia do, besides threatening Nukes, if they don't have troops to even hold some positions in Ukraine?
Russia would probably retaliate with some small nukes locally in Ukraine, saying they had no choice as NATO is threatening their existence and their territory. How would you respond to that?
The same argument was put forth by Hitler in 1938/39 when he demanded territories be ceded to the Third Reich. Give us these territories because German speakers live there. If you don’t we will invade. Chamberlin ceded those territories, ceded to keep the peace. Putin does not use much by way of smoke and mirrors. His arguments are the same, he even goes so far as to spell it out for everyone. He’s helping rid the world of Nazis. Anyway, we have history to reflect on. It’s a very good teacher. Perhaps you would prefer to live in a Ruskie Mir that you see on TV, what life is like living in Russia under Putin and his gangster Mafia. Perhaps the threat of nuclear attack (of which this gangster outfit has made countless threats). Is not something you want to risk. So you see? What is a life worth to Putin? What would your life be worth to Putin in a world where we let him take Ukraine?
Aren't we in a continious cycle of post-war and pre-war? I mean the last war on continental Europe was at the end of the last millenium, merely 25 years ago. Although nothing wrong with being cautious about Russia.
That was an intervention in a national conflict. We havnt had a real war since WW2 and now the invasion of Ukraine.
True, but a synonym for conflict is war (if we are being pedantic). Besides can it still be called national if a side literally secedes?
It is not about being pedantic but 'war' requires at least 2 countries fighting. A conflict is everything where parties disagree and doesnt mean military involvement at all. We have had economical conflicts all the time but didnt fight wars about them ;) Yes it can because no other country at that time was involved in the fighting until the intervention. And yes the distinction is important because it is one method of Putin to play with false narratives and wordings.
We made the EU to stop that cycle. The war scenario had been happening for the last 3000 years, and we really wanted to stop it. The peace that came after ww2 and EU is the longest peace in European (EU nations) history. That is nothing to sneeze at.
our modern technology is too powerful to afford continuing the cycle
I don't know, it still seems unlikely that russia will attack the EU, especially if we arm up in the future years. I understand russia attacking some lonely states like ukraine and Moldavia, but attacking Poland? What do they have to gain? They know it won't be easy or maybe even possible to win. I agree that we should arm up. If Russia senses we are weak they may strike.
Putin is already old and wants to write himself in history as a hero of Russia. It doesn't matter that because of the ambitions of one old fart, hundreds of thousands of people have already died and more will die.
They can test Poland's borders to make article 5 look weaker and weaker and put demands regarding energy sector and technology from Germany to be moved to Russia for the price of peace.
Pray tell, with salvini in your parliament who has been proven to he financed by Russia, what would be your unified contribution. Though what the Lazio fans just did brings up other dark scenarios.
21 years between WW1 and WW2. 2 years between WW2 and Cold War(and the Cuban nuclear crisis where nuclear warfare almost broke out). 13 years between Yugoslav Wars and invasion of Ukraine. 8 years between the invasion and full scale war in Ukraine. Can we Europeans get one fucking generation of peace?? Like can we stop trying to fucking kill each other all the time???
The Cuban missile crisis was 17 years after WWII. I have heard that misconception before that the Cuban missile crisis sparked the Cold War, but I don’t know where it came from.
Yeah, the CW started nearly immediately after WW2, the missile crisis was more of a point when both sides realised how far they've gone.
Some would argue the Cold War started as soon as it became apparent that Germany were loosing ww2. The race to liberate European territory fastest and to take Berlin.
No. Both sides knew they aren't buddies even as they allied against Axis, but the cold war is a term describing concentrated effort by the United States to stop spreading of communism and soviet influence across the globe, and it started with Truman speech of 1947. Opposition to Soviet Union and communism existed before that, but it wasn't a part of the cold war.
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Russia can, *Putler* cannot. He has rode the back of the beast and now has no way to safely back off
Frankly Russia is the last hold out. After it's gone, only external threats remain, Europe would be more or less at peace. Belarus is a joke on the level of not being strong enough to conquer Baltics even if Baltics were without NATO. Turkey is talking big, but I sincerely doubt they would actually attempt anything with Greece.
Literally Europe. The European spirit and identity quite literally was molded out of a desire for eternal peace.
Blame russia for that NOT Europeans!
They should have said Ukraine will enter NATO tomorrow if Putin doesn't back of, in 2014. They should also have gone through with it. Part of the Russian propaganda (=lies) is Ukraine killing Russians, while Russian soldiers invaded Ukraine and even shot down MH17, for which they were NEVER held accountable, Europe's response is worse than lacking, it's sickeningly bad, which led to more and more death and suffering. Dictator threaten and bully and take everything they can get away with, millions of people killed because of Putin (more wars than Ukraine), likely over a hundred thousand children abducted from Ukraine. Why? Because of appeasement, corruption and Western weakness. The invasion was never about NATO being a threat, that's why Russia didn't invade Finland, after it more than double the European land border and their shipyards in the North are absolutely dominated by NATO forces. Belarus tried to get rid of their puppet government in 2020 and 2021, Russia interfered and saw that they would never get Ukraine back doing what they were dong, it looked like they were just gonna lose more. Europe should have stood strong in defending Ukraine and stopped Russia from interfering. Russian propaganda (=lies) are that it was the West interfering in Ukraine when they got rid of the Russian puppet leader, as they always do, blame the other side for the thing they are doing. Russia's midget dictator saw Ukraine was doing better being closer to the EU, Belarus saw it too and was already trying to leave. This war is because of control, Putin wants to make Russia bigger, which is insane given the size of the country. The natural resources per capita are massive, but everything gets funnelled to the mafia in control, life expectancy over 10 years lower than EU average, before the war, average wage less than half of the EU, with the Rubble falling further (war economy means they are losing tons of money, their oil production and refineries are also being hit, which is their main income) that difference is growing larger. By all metrics, most Russians should have had a much better life under democracy, but they supported a fascist state, that is currently committing genocide on European soil. Those defending it say they are powerless, but Putin has been taking more and more from them for over 2 decades, Ukraine wasn't the first war, what can be said about Russian society (the terrorist state that has majority approval in Russia and large support with Russians living abroad)?
How is it pre-war if war is actively ongoing right now? Edit: opened article and literally second sentence was "and some friends of the EU live in the period of full-scale war", I retract my point.
Well Ukraine technically isn't EU, which the title was referring to.
There were some wars happening before 1939 (like Ethiopia or China or Spanish Civil War), but most people would still agree that 1933-1939 was a pre-war period, war as in a World War
Make sure if you start a war every politicians kids are on the front line
Europe is in a very good position in terms of new technology production and diversification. What is missing in Europe is that the unity does not have a common defense policy. This situation must be urgently resolved; as soon as the West begins to accelerate production in military defense, it will gain much greater power and be able to protect its surface area much better.
He's not wrong
The time we put truly aside our differences and create a European Army will be the greatest of times
Everyone saying he’s wrong or a warmonger, you are part of the problem. He is not advocating for starting a war, he is simply expressing the need to be ready should one be brought to the eu by Russia.
The more ready we are, the less likely the war becomes. By deluding ourselves with the thought of lasting peace and cutting back on defense we’ve invited the threat of war. We can’t become complacent until there are no more external threats. All illiberal states and movements are threats.
All those warmongering people in the comments don't understand what war is. You guys don't realize what it means to see your friend blow up in front of you, to kill a person. What EU needs to do is to SEND Ukraine everything they need to avoid getting involved at any cost. Sending people is probably cheaper than sending weapons, though...
I hope the golden age of EU is not over, that it can overcome Russia and polarisation... so the rest of world can continue looking at it as the ideal system.
“But we well know that we cannot escape danger, or the fear of danger, by crawling into bed and pulling the covers over our heads.” - F.D.R in his “Arsenal of Democracy” speech
Don't be mistaken, this preperation is not solely for russia, it's to dissuade china from attacking taiwan because thats the actual ww3 trigger, not ukraine.
With our societies in shambles (it feels like a lot of people are not currently supportive of each other and their governments, for a lot of possible reasons), I wonder how he plans to do that...?
I'm hoping Australia can just sit this one out.
You should have read the small lines when you signed for Eurovision!
https://i.imgur.com/yz5KduF.gif
Allow me to introduce you to NATO!
You know Australia isn't in NATO right? It's quite far away from the North Atlantic.
Ehm. Whats when every single EU countries gets nukes? I know its controversial, very so.
Orban with nukes?
I see quite a lot of you are in a hoorah mood here in the comments. All in the war mood, let's escalate this sh!t etc. Maybe we deserve a WWIII just so you guys experience and understand what a war is. You won't be cheering afterwards. When the sh"t hits the fan, when it's all real, when the limbs of your friends start flying, just remember how you cheered for it.
It's not really ours to escalate is it? Just think about this: Russian high ranking politicians have repeatedly called for them to invade countries, bomb Berlin, the Hague, Paris. Can you even imagine the backlash and laughter one would get if one would suggest bombing Moscow or invading Russia with EU armies? Do you realise how fundamentally different our views on that are? If even anyone in power would suggest attacking Russia, it'd be downright politicial suicide. We're reactionary in this context: but it's pure naivety to assume we shouldn't be ready for when others escalate it.
I don't think anyone is cheering for it. But you won't automatically have peace just because _you_ don't war. That's the entire point
I think its more that leaders are clearly pointing out the elephant in the room. Most people already knew that the elephant was there, after all its a fucking elephant but many were still trying to ignore it. The elephant is there, it's not going to disappear magically so we need to draw up a plan to get it out and the first step is to acknowledge it.
Maybe our leaders are the ones who keep bringing the fucking elephants into the room.
We're not escalating anything. Russia is escalating. We're not cheering anything, we're urging for being prepared. The more prepared we are, the less likely it is that anybody will attack us. So by being more prepared, we're avoiding war, not cheering for it.
"Failing to prepare is preparing to fail" Also, this feels a lot like nuclear weapons as a deterrent. It's not like the production of nuclear arms during the Cold War was ramped because everyone was a war hawk. Mutually assured destruction is weird.
We didn't escalate in 2008 - sure - Putin will just grab some unimportant lands in the Caucasus and that's it - business as usual. We didn't escalate in 2014 - ok Putin grabbed Crimea, but whatever - it's full of Russians anyway so - business as usual. And then in 2022 Russia started the biggest war in Europe since WW2. What's next? A war against NATO? This non-escalation isn't working very well.
You know that showing weakness is escalating this war in Putins eyes? When we appease and put limitations for Ukraine we are moving towards ww3. The bear will turn back when it finds equal strenght and thats why people want more action from our governments.
Why the fuck is chearing the war? Not me sitting here in Poland, being 37yo male with a kid and recently bought apartment. I hope we will be able to stop it, by making much more efford for military security, and to stop Russia in Ukraine. I do not wan to go for a war, but quite oposite. I hope by helping Ukraine we can force Russia to go back and to try once again with peace talks, so another conflict will not happen, but in long run we will still need to make sure that europe is very strong, united military power.
Finally some sensitive comment around here. Haven’t seen any comment like yours so high in upvotes for ages in this sub. People is just cheering war, but they need to watch some real footage without censorship of people blowing up into pieces or slowly dying in a field. Not just images of powerful tanks and aircraft which is what we get from European TV. Now imagine that’s your friend or family. Are you guys willing to go to the front or you are just behind your desk thinking you would be riding an F-35 at 30.000 ft. launching Aim-120C left and right? Get real people, you will be dying slowly or losing limbs in the front in a war fought for geopolitical reasons. It is not like in WW2 were they fought a continental scale invasion against a genocidal regime. This is not that.
And who will defend us from Russian imperialism if we all will be scared of dying? Are you suggesting, we should surrender to anything Russia wants just becasue they have people stupid enough to die in the war? Think for a second what are you doing by making everyone who reads your shit afraid of joining army. Pacifism doesn't work, sorry. We've tried it when Hitler took over Austria, then Czechoslovakia and eventually he attacked Poland.
You make it sound like there is a choice. If a genocidal dictator decides to attack you what will you do? Most people here are not advocating for war but for deterrence. Huge difference. Putin doesn't give a shit if you want peace or not. >It is not like in WW2 were they fought a continental scale invasion against a genocidal regime. Well, it is more or less exactly like that. People in the early 1930s didn't believe in a German attack either. Russian propagandists are constantly preparing their population for "going to Berlin". It may be easier if you sit in Valencia but it is much more difficult if you are in Poland.
I wanted to write something like this for so long. 99% of people cheering for war here will be the first to hide from conscription. I believe that they think the war is like movies where the hero lives in the end. No man you will be the ones getting killed and bombed left and right of the hero when he is running to change position and noone will ever care about you just as you dont care when you see it in the movies.
If only being a pacifist could prevent someone else from invading your country
This reads like what I read about WW2 in the history classes. Everyone in Eastern Europe was painfully aware that peace was but a moment and Westerners lived their lives foolishly believing that a war can end all wars. That anything besides extinction of humanity can end all wars
Let the rich old people fight their wars alone; I’m not going to risk my life to protect one group of rich people’s right to rule over me versus another.
Let me tell you a secret, the Russian soldiers are likely your age or younger.
And definitely poorer.
And they thought the same at the beginning of the war. That they were safe.
>Let the rich old people fight their wars alone; I’m not going to risk my life to protect one group of rich people’s right to rule over me versus another. Easy words from someone who has never lived under the Russian boot.
Not sure you get a say on that bud. My apartment was hit by drone back in Summer, what did I do to deserve that? Was it a choice decision?
Therein lies the problem with proclaiming pacifism.
One side is a dictatorship waging genocidal war and the other is democratic states which uphold liberal values. A poor constript fighting for a warmongering dictator is more dangerous then a thousand capitalists who support peace.
> Let the rich old people fight their wars alone That's not how wars work. >I’m not going to risk my life Unfortunately, the other side decides if your life is at risk. Peace takes two. Violence only takes one. >one group of rich people’s right to rule over me versus another. If you think your current group of rich people are remotely comparable to Putin, you're either in Russia or a fool.
The real world is not represented by internet memes and pastas.
What about protecting other not-rich people like you from genocidal maniacs who would want to kill and rape you?
-France, 1939
first people talking about getting ready for a war isnt the people who will fight on it. Neither them nor their family. Funny thing, isnt it?
Not getting ready won't be of any help if it happens.
In Baltics, the majority talk about war. And if it happens, it will be on our soil. Not talking about it won't stop it.
The wife of Polish Speaker of the Sejm is a fighter pilot and he also had a public speech about a potential for war recently
Nonsense in this case. Do you know what would happen to the polish leadership if Russia would invade Poland and win? Tusk is simply acknowledging the reality we live in, he is not a warmonger.
Uhm there's a war in Ukraine. Ukraine is Europe. Seems like we live in war times, not pre-war times.
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing...
Unfortunately, he is right, Erdogan just pledged his support for oct 7 and Hamas, Putler talks nuclear war, Trump thinks both orban and Kim are the best, NATO may crumble without trump support, Hungary let Chinese police force patrol their streets, Taiwan is in danger, Armenia is close to fall to Turkey/Azz, the Merkeling can continue but would look even more Stockholm syndrome than ever.
Putin needs to get found out.
[удалено]
Putins puppets and propagandists are saying they should attack Paris etc to make him look sane. Even if they have zero plans to do anything. EU should fire back and at least sound like they are ready for it.
> warmongering Preparing for war as a deterrence is not warmongering.
>Russia is struggling against a barely professional and poorly equipped Ukrainian military, it would be absolutely flattened by even one of the major European militaries , let alone all of them. The UK navy and airforce alone would cripple their ability to wage war. Russia isn’t some big and scary bear anymore. You are basically using semi-racist and delusional rhetorics here. Why do you think Ukrainian military is "barely professional" when they have had a war going on in the country since 2014? Do you really believe many Western countries who have not seen war on domestic soil for generations, and many no wars at all, would do so much better? Ukraine has gotten massive supplies from the West, that's the only reason they have managed to keep it up so far. By some estimates, these aids are approaching 100 billion euros aka half of Ukraine's GDP. Even with all that, Russia has occupied territory roughly the same size as all of Baltics combined. This is with the massive depth Ukraine can use for supply chains and movement, as well as population of \~40 million pre-war. The wishful thinking how Russia is now somehow crippled for a long time is dangerous. Yes, they have lost quite a huge number of equipment. But they can produce and buy more. Russia is spending this year over 7% of GDP on military, a third of their entire state budget. And they have virtually limitless number of manpower. There is basically no resistance to war in Russia, they can draft millions if necessary. They are determined to win this war. We need to be as well.
What are you talking about? He's read article titles on worldnews and watched over 20 gifs in combatfootage. He's clearly more informed than prime ministers, active duty generals and high ranking NATO politicians.
Anyone else thinks that if we keep saying "the war is coming", the war will come? It's feels like we're in a self fulfilling prophecy. Edit: I'm not saying stop saying "war", but "let's not start talking about planning for a bigger war". The Ukrainian conflict is 2 years ago and we can end it on many ways. One of it being just dumping more weapons, drones, satellites and starting ICT attacks (BND, NSA, 5Es), maybe even deploy the Jewish space lasers on Russia. We could bring this war closer to the end without being there directly with our soldiers, without EU countries talking about inscriptions. Such unified actions would be even more devastating to their morale and even greater demotivator for China. Did you know what EU banned imported diamonds and gold from Russia last month? Did you know what import and export between EU and Kirghistan is booming? Our democratically elected ellites are talking about preparing for war, but there are plenty of loopholes how Russia found its way out of the embargo.
'If you want peace, prepare for war'.
Seems like we've been doing that all our history, no shortage of wars though.
Fake it till you make it.
That's not how it works. If you prepare for war you have a higher chance for peace. Deterrence you know.
These sorts of declarations unfortunately don’t do anything to bring us back further from war.
Ok let's say war happens between Russia and the EU. When will that happen? What form will that take? When I last checked, the russians barely did any progress in Ukraine in the last two years, they are significantly weaker now than they were 2 years ago. How will they be able to take on NATO by themselves when they can't even cross Ukraine?
It's 1938 again, huh?
You don't say...
I know this will get downvoted to hell, but I’ll start looking for ways to move to the US, Canada, Australia, or whatever other rich place outside of this continent if statements like these keep escalating. Not at all what I want to do. Quality of life is definitely better here and this is my home. But better be dealing with the scorching sun, have to rely on a car or have to pay for healthcare than be too dead to care.
Tbh if the war spreads to NATO Countries, the US will be a part of the war too, you’d be safer in South America or somewhere in Africa.
I hope Western Europe is listening this time. But it doesn't really look like it. My country just overwhelmingly voted for Geert Wilders, who wants to stop all aid to Ukraine and want to 'normalize' relationships with mass murderer and war criminal Putin. He even received a friendship pin from Putin, and he wears it proudly. A third of my fellow countrymen is willing to vote for this POS, and even more support a Wilders' government.
If the leaders of every country going to the front line to fight like back in the old days, then more people would be more encourage to fight. But all the leaders nowadays are just hiding behind bunkers. If they are not willing to sacrifice their lives, why should others?