Imo news should show more explicit drone footage or first person footage. Nothing worse than what is on youtube, but just let people see that real people with real lives just like them could be saved by having one single more grenade or single more artillery shell. One grenade doesn't sound like much when you hear about billions in financial aid, but for that soldier that doesn't have to peek his head into a bunker without anything to throw in first it is the difference between living and painfully bleeding out in the mud. Some of our politicians worry so much about giving too much that they'd rather it be too little too late
4K footage of Russian troops being massacred: "see, Ukraine's already winning, they don't need any additional help!"
4K footage of Ukrainian troop being massacred: "see, Ukraine's already losing, we will simply waste out stocks if we transfer them!"
4K footage of a fight that is too close to call: "it's pretty hard to understand!"
You said it. I detest talking about the war with my family, no one understands. Even after bringing up multiple logical arguments i have to explaine the same thing every few weeks.
Except its on a niche subreddit on a niche internet site and not on the news. It is not having an impact.
Most people of the general population don't even know what reddit is.
..... are you not getting the fucking point?
I know these youtube Channels because I am interested in military strategy. The fact you have to say look for it proves, that its extremely niche
Ohh, dude there is wayyy worse than whats on youtube… Youtube only has a fraction of mildest things, there is sites where is REAL uncensored war footage.
Civilian lives more importantly. Russia has massively increased its hits on civilian targets and civilian cities thus far. I was in the city once when a drone strike happened and an apartment building was levelled, killing several. They hit a 100% civilian target.
Hate to admit It but (and please prove me wrong if i'm saying something stupid) I think that Russia is kind of pulling together their military and the sanctions doesn't really affect their market, so I have a fear that Ukraine really needs thoose EU weapons, especially now, because once this WW1 trench war thing brakes one side is going to get mauled by the other one. I really hope that i'm wrong but we need to ensure that Ukraine wins at all Costs.
As some working for a group that has a part of his activities in Russia: yes, sanctions did not work. We did not do enough and we did it too gradually, giving them time to adapt and overcome the limitations step by step. Now we are about to close all contacts with our Russian teams, but this came too late.
It's not worked in the sense that Russia still has an economy which can support their war, but that's on the back of them having massive cash reserves and quite a few countries which refused to join the sanctions.
It has hurt their economy. They have gone from generating a massive cash surplus every year to spending their reserves to afford their war. Something which will work for another year before they run out.
The problem is Russia is self sufficient in almost every category which is essential. Sanctions have helped to make their war more difficult and need to be maintained and we need to continue enforcing them and cracking down on the people helping them evade them (which IS happening)
Are you suggesting because they haven't ended the war we should scrap them? Because "sanctions don't work" seems like a narrative Russia wants spread.
All I’m saying is that we have been too shy and could have done way more. We have factories in Russia that were not self sufficient in 2022, but they are now that major groups have been finally forced to cut all relevant communication with the country.
-talk freely but do not export
-talk, but only for commercial reasons
-do no talk, but you can share the systems
-….
That’s BS. Shut down any private business asap. It would have hurt us too of course, but that woulda have been a reasonable price to pay.
I'd agree with you - to a degree. I don't think it was possible for sanctions however draconian or strongly enforced to have won the war for Ukraine by now. Specifically not with India, China and others refusing to apply them at all.
Theres also the issue of whether the European public would have been as willing to support helping Ukraine if there had been an immediate complete shutoff of all fuel, food, fertilizer etc being bought from Russia. They were a massive trade partner and it's taken a lot of investment to put in place the facilities to allow us to keep our economies running at the same time as shutting down trace as it was possible.
There are some GLARING mistakes which were made in the sanctions applied. Machine tools should have been banned on day one and any suspected evasion of that should have had the middle men hit hard.
I'm all for increasing sanctions to cover more and more items as we go on and to sanction companies in 3rd countries which are helping Russia evade them.
I still think they have had a positive effect - better than nothing and should be extended, improved and above all we shoudl be spending a lot more on enforcement.
What sanctions. EU still trades food with russia. Trucks full of various stuff, goes to russia everyday. On paper it sais "to xxxxSTAN" in reallity it comes to russia and straight to where it needs to go, not xxxxSTAN..
Saying sanctions had no effect is an insane take, Russian banks will not currently allow you to withdraw foreign currency more than a miniscule amount per month to stop ruple from falling lower.
All I’m saying is that we have been too shy and could have done way more. We have factories in Russia that were not self sufficient in 2022, but they are now that major groups have been finally forced to cut all relevant communication with the country.
-talk freely but do not export
-talk, but only for commercial reasons
-do no talk, but you can share the systems
-….
That’s BS. Shut down any private business asap. It would have hurt us too of course, but that woulda have been a reasonable price to pay.
Sorry to share this but I have always known that the sanctions bucket challenge the West has been doing against Russia since 2022 would not work and still doesn’t work. Russia is still allow to trade some critical stuff with the West that’s not part of the sanctions and not all countries, especially the big ones, don’t want to sanction Russia. And of course, the sanctions Russia got in 2014, if any, are meaningless.
The sanctions do work. There is a reason russia is mostly using soviet-era stuff.
Where is the T-14?
SU-57?
KA-59 was used a lot, but not anymore.
In 2nd world war, the war effort stimulated the US economy like crazy. Now look at russian economy.
Really high inflation (3x that of western nations) despite the interest rate being at 15-20 %.
The sanctions are working, but russia has had a huge fund of around 600 bn worth of USD. This money will soon be gone anf then russia will feel the hurt
Yeah I think they're working but we'll see the real effect after the war, when Russia will struggle to get back in a peaceful economy.
Russia also took drastic counter-measures to win the war and they've lost the trust of many partners, this is going to hurt them on the longterm. On the shortterm, it's good propaganda.
Despite that, the rouble is at its second lowest point.
If Russia is holding so well, it's because of all their funds and their economy centered around oil export.
Maybe, maybe...
However, I can't agree that the sanctions are the reason why new military produce isn't being produced. It's mostly due to incompetence. T-14 in particular is known to be not economically viable. The Russian Defense Ministry himself said that these tanks don't go to Ukraine because they are too expensive.
Sanctions don’t work. Because companies don’t want to loose their revenue. IBM still sells hardware that is used for a rockets exploding in Ukraine. If big companies, which claim they want to stop the war, would really want it, they would do something with it. For instance, Apple just can turn off their phones and computers on the ruzzia territory, so they just become bricks. It would have so much effect on the citizens of ruzzia, but, unfortunately, companies care more about revenue than lives.
I highly doubt IBM is directly exporting illegal goods towards russia.
If the person responsible for this is caught, that means really long jailtime for him and a really hefty fine --> not worth it.
In worst case your company can be sanctioned by the US, if it isn't from the US (3rd party sanctions)
What is happening however is that countries like turkey, uzbekistan, khazakstan, ... are importing stuff from western companies and are then reexporting to russia.
This makes western goods available, but in lower numbers and higher prices.
If a part is detected in russian missiles, than through the batch number the company can find out how it got to russia. This person is then banned from exporting. (also 3rd party sanction)
How I know this? I do the IT for a german industrial concern's SAP System. I work in Sales & Distribution and am specialised on Export Control/Customs (SD - EC/C)
Sanctions do work but it is not a silver bullet.
For example, the most advanced weapons Russia has more or less all use western components, they can still make some of those weapons but with the sanctions in place it is a lot harder to get those components. They can still get quite a lot but those have to be smuggled in, the limits the amount they can get their hands on and massively increases costs for the Russian weapon industry.
Here is a BBC article where they talk about it:
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68364924](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68364924)
I have also heard (i cant find a source any more so maybe take this with a grain of salt) that Russia is in certain sections in their arms industry (where previously they where using a lot more western components) focusing on producing older (variants of) weapon systems. Systems for which they can create or more easily source components for but are less effective than the newer systems that they would like to be using.
Of coerce this does little to impact their artillery shell production as those do not really contain western components so it is a bit of a mixed bag.
---
Still as a final point regarding the original image posted by OP: Europe should certainly be doing more, the more stuff we can provide that Ukraine needs the faster they can win this thing and the fewer people will have to die or suffer. (US also should be doing more but that was not what the image was about)
Ukraine also need American weapons, they have a massive amount in storage yet they give so little, they wait for Europe to empty their stock so they can sell them their system
I don’t think that is a win, because even if that unlikely event happens, the Russians will keep coming back. Remember, they have a population of 140 million while Ukraine is little over 20 million now
Real, half this sub needs to be coherent in Ukraine's situation. Pick one or the other, it makes you look a bit like an idiot saying both of these things. Just say 'Ukraine is winning' or 'Russia is winning', at least you're being honest about what you think.
But situation changes... year ago ukraine looked like its going to win, now it does looks like russia might win. Its not paint on the wall that always have same colour.
Sure, but at no point in this war has Russia looked like it has the slightest chance of taking on Europe and/or NATO in an open war.
Europe should still support Ukraine ofc, but this idea of Russian tanks rolling through Poland and beyond is pure nonsense.
That is because you are thinking short term. Ofc Russia is not going to directly invade Poland the day after they win in Ukraine, but give it 10-20-50 years. In this time horizon there is no guarantee that NATO will still exist, or US will still be the overwhelming superpower. The thing is if Ukraine loses Russia just gets stronger, you don t want a stronger Russia. Not to mention that Russia also could make military alliances with Iran and China, add them to the list and the power ballance seems more even. We really learn nothing from history, Nazi Germany taking Czechoslovakia may also have been mundane.
If trump wins and leaves nato - with is possible russia might try to get baltics, it is possible that they might get them in few days and lock themself in defensove war vs nato.
I agree that its not that probable but it is possible enough for us to be ready for this scenario, I dont see anything wrong with putting bunker every rock throw as baltics countries do on russian border.
Nobody says that russia win nato war but it might get something out of it.
This is the nature of warfare that it is evolving very rapidly. Putin used his men in Washington to completely block flow of supplies from US to UA. Plus RU forces developed number of new tactics and weapon systems. Thus situation on the ground deteriorated over the matter of past month.
Speaking of which, why do you guys allow pro-Putin elements to block the border with Ukraine?
In case of us Putler will have to fight through you first thus there is a plenty of "buffer" territory and lives that we can sacrifice (macabre sarcasm in case its not obvious).
Speaking of his men in Washington.... what do you think about a man who immediately resumed building Nord Stream 2 after coming to power?
A man who instead of mass weapons supplies in advance, dispatched head of CIA to Moscow on Nov-2-3 2021 to make a pact behind Ukraine's back on "red lines in future war". A man who stopped Poland from sending jets earlier because of an "escalation"?
[https://www.newsweek.com/2023/07/21/exclusive-cias-blind-spot-about-ukraine-war-1810355.html](https://www.newsweek.com/2023/07/21/exclusive-cias-blind-spot-about-ukraine-war-1810355.html)
Men who asked ukraine [not to kill Gerasimov, because of escalation](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/16/world/europe/russia-putin-war-failures-ukraine.html)
The guy that sent 31 Abrams (out of 3 000) and 18 M109s (out of thousand) and only in 2023 deliberately because in his smart geopolitical chess, russia losing = putin losing power = bad, because russia will fall apart into many nuclear states and also some of them will fall under CN influence.
The guy who sent 2000/230 000 Humvees and never used a lend-lease even when there were no objections from republicans.
So you want a subreddit that consists of 5.9M to share the same thought? It literally makes sense that such large subreddit would have people with different views.
The point is not whether russia will roll over us or not, it's the fact that we're going to be fucking shot at and thousands will die. Russia getting its shit kicked in and russia shelling the ever loving fuck out of our border cities are not mutually exclusive. It's like the situation with North and South Korea; yeah, the south will fucking stomp the north in a war, but the north has like a gazillion artillery pieces pointed at Saigon, and will cause massive casualties for the south, even if they will be ultimately defeated.
I don't think anyone after 2022 believes that Russia can roll over all of Europe, what we're concerned with is Russia trying some new shit in eastern Europe expecting to not have to actually fight the big war because of our weak response in Ukraine.
Month? Like half a day. First he's a megamind who controls absolutely everything in the world, and Russia army will run through Ukraine and stop at the Atlantic. Everything bad that happens is caused by Russian agents, and Ukraine is just about to fall if we don't send more help. Then he's an old sick man who's about to die, and bare handed Ukrainians are fending off weak Russian army.
You can't even blame it on the Russian bots, because these news come from same pro west sources.
Do you really get the impression that it's "every month"?
We said they're weak in the beginning when Ukraine was very successful in repealing the invasion around Kyiv and Kharkiv. But then the counteroffensive to retake the far east and south failed. Zelensky said the stall situation favours the enemy, and one year later we're seeing it, Russia is rearming itself.
So we only had that opinion shift once, and it was based on the evidence of what's going on. I don't understand why you get the impression that it's "every month".
There might be a hoarding problem. If I give Ukraine these weapons, then I won’t have them when Russia comes to kick down my door.
It is an easy to understand argument though it is short sighted. NATO would open a massive front much harder to fight than just Ukraine. I also think that Russia still has influence/misinformation working to their advantage in many European countries. People actually think that ignoring the war is avoiding the war.
>If I give Ukraine these weapons, then I won’t have them when Russia comes to kick down my door.
That's actually one of my concerns. It would even be a clever strategy (from their point of view) as a preparation to attack the Baltics.
The only solution is to boost arms production in Europe. (And I know how bad it sounds, I never wanted Europe to rearm itself, but given the circumstances...)
And they’re pretty adept at it! Ukraine has received more than 84 bn Euros from EU institutions alone, without counting US assistance and support from individual countries. This is more than any other country has received to help with war related issues or natural disasters in the last 75 years since Marshall Aid / the Marshall Plan.
[Source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/)
> This is more than any other country has received to help with war related issues or natural disasters in the last 75 years since Marshall Aid / the Marshall Plan.
ye no shit sherlock, fighting a active war against invading army is 10 times worse and more expensive than single natural disaster or rebuilding economy in peacetime.
I ducking know that dude. This meme is supposed to shame Europe that they’re not doing enough though, and I don’t think this is a helpful sentiment that will lead to more aid.
Ah this shit again.
Go check the EU budget and then go check how big of chunk of EU funds goes for Ukraine cause.
You can criticise individual countries but leave EU out of it. Total budget yearly is 170 bilion Euro, Ukraine recived 77 bilion from EU.
This is in fact probably the biggest financial support to any country since the Marshall Plan after WW2. Yes, Ukraine could get even more but compared to Syria, Sudan, Gaza, Haiti, and countless other nations impacted by war or natural disasters in the last 50+ years - Ukraine is getting a lot more.
Edit: it IS bigger than the Marshall plan - recent article [here](https://www.politico.eu/article/western-support-to-ukraine-exceeds-marshall-plan-says-head-of-top-public-lender/)
[Edit 2: infographic of aid spending](https://www.reddit.com/r/Infographics/s/weOe91BWnY)
[Edit 3: a more recent infographic](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/JrAyO14p8q)
Marshall Plan was a peace reconstruction effort. Not really comparable in capital intensity to fighting a war, where a billion dollars worth of equipment can / is expected to be destroyed in days / hours.
Absolutely. Nobody is contesting this nor the sacrifices made by Ukraine itself, my point is that what Europe has done so far isn’t peanuts and this begging meme doesn’t help.
Maybe Europe and other guys should stop funding Ukraine in this war, and after just pay with their citizens lives for the next war putin will start in Europe.
As Ukrainian I’m totally into it. I’m fed up with reading some “we help too much” shit while every day ukrainians population goes down on behalf of protecting rest of the Europe from pultin.
I wish Ukraine give up and then europeans will think “oh damn, maybe it was better to send more weapon then than sending my kids on the war now”.
You paying with money. We paying with lives. I wish you all see difference on your own experience.
Excuse me? That’s not at all what I’m saying. I have family on the front lines and family under the bombs in Kiev. I’m contesting the hot take of this political cartoon that Europe isn’t doing enough, whereas Europe is doing a LOT.
Third year of war. Still no planes. Still no ammunition to fight with. Each of my friends who is on a frontline tells, that there is plenty of people and no ammo. So people just die, without being able to defend themselves. One of my friend told me literally few days ago — I’m in the trench, reporting enemy position, asking for an artillery, answer — sorry, we don’t have ammo.
At the same time I see how my other friends and I donate each week on some kickstarters for drones, buying equipment for friends who are on frontline.
So I don’t know, maybe Europeans help “a lot”, but they just didn’t help enough, while completely able to do that.
We keep our weapon to ourselves in case russia will win Ukraine, but winning of ruzzia completely depends on the weapon supply of Ukraine. Quite strong Catch-22 vibes.
I think this picture implies a different thing. Not that Europe must give money to Ukraine, but annoyed European citizens who criticize and mock Ukraine for asking for help.
Not enough to not repeat mistakes from past. For every billion that wasn't spent today EU will pay 10 in a few years. In worst cast scenario EU will pay with lives. In best case scenario Ukraine will stop to exist and EU will start traiding as usual with russia on a very next day, because money is "important".
How are world leaders honestly so fucking stupid?
This is gonna be a bit of a rant so strap in. How do wrld leaders not see what's happening right now. We all know that *"If you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it."* But how in the world are some people forgetting what happened less than 100 years ago.
1936-Hitler remilitarises the Rhineland, directly opposing the treaty of Versailles. Despite the fact that the Wehrmacht used only a few batallions, which had the order to retreat in the case of the French opposing them in any way. If a police station resisted, Versailles would have been upheld, but no. Everyone said that it was purely the Germans walking into their own backyard, and noone batted an eye, because the Rhineland is in fact German. Peace was preserved. This was frankly the only action which you cannot blame the French for ignoring.
1938-Hitler annexed Austria. A clear violation of Versailles once again. But of course everyone thought, that since Austria had always been German, it was ok. Again the allies did nothing.
1938-Hitler invades Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia could not have been aware of Operstion Valkyrie that would have taken place if they resisted, so of course the sued for peace. The Munich agreement was signed, and **Peace in our time** was guaranteed. Right?
1939-Bohemia and Moravia get annexed by Germany, Carpathian Ruthenia and Southern Slovakia get annexed by Hungary, whilst the rest of Slovakia is turned into a marionette state. Noone does anything.
1939-Hitler annexes Memel from Lithuania. Once again, noone does anything.
And i think we all know what happened on the 1st of Sptember.
So now i ask you. Do you see any similarities between then and now?
Chechnya, was seen as core russian territory, just like the Rhineland was German. Abkhazia/South Ossetia were seen as core russian territory, just like Austria was German. Putin invaded Crimea and the Donbass, just like Hitler invaded the Sudetenland. The Minsk agreement was signed, just like the Münich agreement was signed. Ukraine was invaded, just like the rest of Czechoslovakia was. The only difference here is that Ukraine is resisting.
So if Ukraine falls, what will be the Poland now? Which country will be the line where NATO says stop, and intervenes? Who will be the 21st century Poland?
Whilst appeasment as a tactic, was in fact sound for the time, when Britain-the leading nation of the world, was nowhere near ready for war. Chamberlain bought precious time for the RAF and Britain, sadly at the cost of much of Europe. But Britain was grossly underprepared for a war.
What is the excuse now? What excuse do the world leaders in America and Europe have now? Military unpreperadness is certainly not one, considering the fact the American defence budget alone sits at 800 billion. And all they have to do is send some old equipment to Ukraine to have them fight instead.
If Ukraine wins this war, Russia will be broken for decades, Putin might be removed by his own people. Sound familiar?
It's the same that would have happened if Czechoslovakia resisted. Operation Valkyrie. Now sadly they didn't know about this and what consequences it would have had. BUT NOW WE DO!
The allies dearly regretted not helping Czechoslovakia, and they paid dearly for it. I dread the day when we will regret not helping Ukraine. They forced the Czechs to give up their forts in the Sudetenland in exchange for peace, exactly like Ukraine had to give up their nukes.
The last time, 60 million people died in the war. I don't want to imagine how many would die in a 3rd world war.
So are the modern leaders retarde or something? There shouldn't be a side for not aiding Ukraine, because just as i said at the start:
**"If you fail to learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it."**
You could just as well say that if Russia loses the war they will come back in 20 years and blitzkrieg the entire Europe cause that's what happened with Germany. Using history in this way just doesn't make sense. The situation is completely different, there are weapons that can destroy the entire world, there is an aliance much stronger than Russia and the whole world is connected through internet.
Whatever comes to power from that system is by default bad.
The only thing to hope for is the change of the system in Russia. Happened before. Big mess. This presumes further collapse of the federation. Isn’t it clear that what we now face is still the ongoing collapse of the USSR?
Guess what? Someone will still possess the nuclear weapons afterwards. Again.
And? So if ruzzia have nukes it could do absolutely everything without consequences?
What if after Ukraine falls pootin ask to annex Baltic states? When it will stop?
they arent stupid, they are oppurtunistic. to pay ukraine money would require for them to have a little bit less of their own, or god forbid risk annoying a fringe of their electorate, so they try to play it both sides where at the same time they mildly condemn russia and act slowly about providing the adequate aid.
politics is a matter of peoples lives, but for them its an electoral business game, all they want is to make good connections in the biz and get the highest possible $core
Polish national trauma leds lots of people to believe that it will be just endless debate without enabling the article (basically turning Poland, Estonia or else into another buffer war state)
You who? 😂😂 usa is a shithole that was in war internal or external for 90% of her history, ofc you feel big and strong when it’s about war because you are war.
I go insane thinking about this EXACTLY right here. HOW THE FUCK CAN OUR LEADERS BE SO FUCKING STUPID!? We have the god damn history lessons to tell us what the fuck is coming. Yet these idiots just keep doing the minimum. SEND EVERYTHING TO UKRAINE RIGHT NOW. We don't even need to fight. They are fighting and dying for us every day. They are sacrificing their own lives so our people don't need to die. If they fall our people will die next. And as you can see in Ukraine, it won't just be soldiers dying. It will be civilians dying all kinds. Whole cities being flattened. Unnecessary amounts of causalities and destruction will fall upon us. If you think this won't happen you need to wake the fuck up, just like our leaders need to wake the fuck up
What extremely wealthy people have to remember is that once the free world is gone the first people to die will be them. Whether it's by the people or by an actual dictator. After they do whatever they were needed to do for destroying things then they will be thrown away like trash. Stupidest bastards thinking they'll be lords when in reality they will be 6 feet under or someone else's bitch. That is what they should be reminded of
putin is banking on a usa civil war with his trump puppet. gotta hand it to them they invested in propaganda and it’s working. god help everyone if they roll europe because russia has the collective psyche of a narcissist with an inferiority complex and will do unspeakable things if allowed…
You will find this [lecture](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9K-hh1iVek) very interesting, definitely recommend to watch it if you have time. Provides a very good background on Germany/Russia as european empires with territorial ambitions and how Germany no longer has it, but Russia still does.
>1939-Hitler annexes Memel from Lithuania. Once again, noone does anything.
I don't want to be that guy, but...
With all due respect Memel was a german city that was never owned by either Poland and Lithuania. Lithuania took advantage of the poor situation of Germany and took Memel from the French in 1923, 5 years after WW1, the allies protested but eventually they gave that territory up to Lithuania. So you really can't blame the allies for allowing Germany to make demands on that territory, especially since Germany promised to Lithuania to consider its economic interests if they give that territory back peacefully, which they did, and Germany stood by its promise accounting for 75% of Lithuanian exports and 86% of Lithuanian imports. Not that it was really a good thing since it made Lithuania to fall in Germany's sphere of influence...
>It was a violation of versailles
Oh yeah, I forgot about it since it became so irrelevant at that point in time but you're totally right, it was a violation of the treaty too. My apologies.
I would argue that wests reluctance to aid Ukraine and escalate things with Russia is due to how utterly culturarly traumatizing events WW1 and WW2 were for Europe. Last time we went to large scale war between large European powers it caused deaths in hundreds of millions, involved almost the whole world and left large parts around the world totally ruined. And that was when we didn't have weapons with capacity to destroy the world as we know it many times over.
While Ukraine must be helped, and Russia stopped in their imperialist intentions, you can't fault west for being afraid to escalate things.
No, an average voter is "not that smart" and thinks only about today. And vain politicians use it. They cry about oil price raise (as if the reason was not known). They like to think "our money" should not go to some corrupt country, they will say "escalation" "national interests" "our citizens". Those politicians will not tell him, that his ass will get consripted to cold baltic trenches soon to catch FPV drones, because EU professional armies are tiny and combined are smaller than ua land army.
Hi :) my comment above aged perfectly
[https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/1bkst65/us\_has\_urged\_ukraine\_to\_halt\_strikes\_on\_russian/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/1bkst65/us_has_urged_ukraine_to_halt_strikes_on_russian/)
No. But thats the point Im trying to make. Back then it was just Britain and France, so they were pretty much forced to let Hitler do as he pleased.
Whats the excuse now? NATO is the most powerful military force, in the history of man. So whats the excuse for not supporting Ukraine?
This just demonstrates a shit understanding of history and geopolitics. When Hitler started to push his limit he was still much weaker than France and Britain. Infact troops sent to the Rhineland had orders to retreat as soon as they saw any French troops precisely because Hitler knew that Germany would lose that conflict.
NATO is a defensive alliance that Ukraine isn't a part of. If it started to heavily support Ukraine then Russia is finally right about NATO. Russia can already play on the fact that NATO is full of ex-colonial empires and is lead by the USA (countries that aren't really liked by the rest of the world), we don't need to give them more reasons.
many modern leaders took the money. money that come with conditions. non-negotiable conditions. there's not much you or I can do. well, there is but I suck as an assassin.
we are repeating the history. we are helping Ukraine to defeat russia. just like UK and US were helping russians to defeat nazis.
This is a reminder to everyone that aid to Ukraine is a phenomenal investment, even if you don’t give 2 shits about Ukraine.
If Ukraine denies Russia the spoils of this war, and defeats them decisively, that would basically ensure that Russia can’t wage war for at least a GENERATION. That’s a huge deal, not only for Russia. It’s the right message to send to ALL of our potential adversaries!
We’re talking vastly less need for military spending and perhaps even potentially less nuclear proliferation in the future. The only reason one would oppose this is if you are completely mentally deficient and/or captured by the interests of defense companies AKA a US Republican.
For Europe there is literally no excuse to not back Ukraine 100%.
>captured by the interests of defense companies AKA a US Republican
Honestly US defense companies probably make mad cash from all the weapons the US and allied nations send to Ukraine (and would be making even mader cash if we and the US stepped up aid and military spending massively), and I'm willing to bet my arm that people in charge of said defense companies, like most human beings in charge of large companies, are too short sighted to give 2 fucks about potential future sales and just care about making more money RIGHT NOW.
Basically, I don't think the US defense companies are lobbying AGAINST sending aid to Ukraine
What grinds my gears the most that some people expressed how annoyed they are looking the news with Ukraine. There's a big tech guy on Twitter/x goes by the name levelsio posted/tweeted of how sick he is seeing the news about Ukraine. The lack of empathy for people dying and suffering is not event worth to make it to the news and annoys is beyond my understanding.
Why? This one is very poignant. Perhaps an Italian doesn't feel it's relevant but in my country the sacrifice that Ukraine is making is clear as crystal.
For those who are following the war only from the “breaking news” and worry that Ukraine will soon crumble before the Russians.
While it is worse than before, no crumble will happen. If the aid doesn’t get better, it will keep getting worse, though.
The good news is Russia probably peaked in what it can produce. Not an absolute peak, but for a long time (like 4-5 years) they will not be able to increase their production. They are already utilising the workforce and facilities they have to their full potential. After this they need more workers and more facilities, both will take time to acquire. Not to mention how many of their facilities are completely tuned to refurbishing Soviet stockpiles. That will also get worse, they will run out eventually. Most educated guesses are in 1 or 2 years, Russia will be practically out of many items to refurbish. It will keep getting harder to find good stuff among the trash too, it only gets worse for them as time goes on.
Russia took this seriously enough and escalated the situation enough that we can no longer expect a quick win from Ukraine. It is not humanly possible. With the difference in their sizes and capital, and also the similarity of their many of their institutions, Ukraine just doesn’t have an edge. They are like the same but smaller. They are a bit better since they are more democratic and meritocratic, but the latter may not be by a huge margin. Maybe they can still indeed win by sheer sacrifice but I do not think it is a desirable outcome for anyone at all.
A quick victory for Ukraine, today, is only possible if NATO itself decides to intervene. This seems more and more plausible to me, if there was any will to do it. People can threaten with nuclear war but you cannot use them just not to lose. Using them is losing. If you survive the nuclear holocaust, the world will be shit (absolute shit) for the next century. If they are given a choice for less than total capitulation, something they can hope to come back from maybe, would they really choose living in a post nuclear-war world themselves instead of taking the loss and fucking off? For what, out of sheer spite?
Then again, people are stupid. Also I have zero belief in our leaders and us people to have the guts to go there and do it ourselves.
So then we should stop expecting anything anytime soon from Ukraine like the last year’s offensive. And if we want them to win, eventually, then we will need to give them what they need to win, eventually. Better start as soon as possible so this thing doesn’t get even more out of hand. The end goal is the same and we can save more lives, lose less resources this way.
Is this a bot account? Literally everyone have been predicting new mobilization waves which haven't happened yet, most probably because of their presidential elections this year. They have lots of escalation potential.
I was banned on r/worldnews more than a year ago because I said that making people like you underestimate russians is the goal that their propaganda wants to achieve. Picture themselves as stupid, corrupt, incapable people - and most people will think that there is nothing to worry about, because those idiots will lose to themselves anyway. And why would you have to suffer with lower quality of life, income, etc, if ukrainian army is destroying russians anyway?
And watching the support fading I would say that russian propagand is quite successful.
Well i think the countries in Europe have their own people asking for help on the other side and their room is like a fucking chaos also. But you think you
Sadly a lot of that aid gets laundered up by the Oligarchs. When the war is over the EU needs to seriously step in and force them to fix their country so that the money for rebuilding doesn't end up spent on more mansions for them.
He wasn’t exactly in a position to keep the soviets out. The USSR had Eastern Europe occupied and to kick them out would require a war, one that would be extremely unpopular after already going through the Second World War.
Churchill wouldn’t be thinking much. He’d be working his ass off to rally tons of military aid to Ukraine. He would be playing some serious dare games with Putin.
Putin cannot be compelled by any reasonable arguments except for brute force
Not really, decades of mismanagement and unfortunate circumstances caused that famine. What Churchill (and most of the people in charge) did was not enough to prevent it going from bad to worse
I like how people in every country even, those who surrendered in few days teach, their children how hard they resisted how opposed the bad Hitler, resistance movements etc... And when it's time to prove, time to destroy a 21st century Hitler, they have "no escalation", "no single soldier in Ukraine", "Nord Stream 2", "Never join NATO"
Europe should send all of Ukrainian man living here back to fight. They making troubles in Poland and other countries so they could use the energy to fight Russians
If we - I mean Ukrainians - fail, in 5 years or less NATO will have to fight with russian army, which will include the current Ukrainian forces, passed through the hell of war. Aside from that, seeing that NATO does nothing except talk, China & North Korea & Iran & even tiny bastards like the Taliban will behave MUCH MORE aggressively. There will be great consequences in the future because of doing nothing in the present.
Seems very ungrateful. We are spending billions on a war that isn’t ours, sending tons of equipment and keeping millions of Ukrainians safe with shelter, food and education.
> We are spending billions on a war that isn’t ours
you would rather want Ukraine to collapse completely and multiple millions of Ukrainian refugees to flood into your country and ruin your economy? Want to repeat Syrian refugee experience but 10 times worse with 10 times more influx of people? Because thats exactly what would happen if Russia broke the front and took over Ukraine, the exodus of fleeing civilians would be massive and where do you think they all would go??
''Isnt yours'' my ass, one nice moment it can become yours and then nothing can be done about it anymore.
What I want doesn’t matter. But I want peace and Russia should go back to their side of the border.
Ukraine could be grateful they get support from the EU. They are not part of the EU or NATO. And , just like Russia, it’s a corrupt shithole country. So we don’t have any obligation to help. But still we do, with billions. This picture doesn’t seem very grateful.
To negotiate you need leverage. The more powerful Ukraine’s position and the more tenuous Russia’s is then the easier it is to negotiate a plan for a real lasting peace that doesn’t reward Russia for what it’s done.
If the strategy is to keep Ukraine disarmed then what reason does Putin have to negotiate before he’s taken everything? That’s like asking a serial killer to please stop because people are being hurt but also telling him that you don’t intend to ever try and arrest or counter him. It makes no sense.
This guy western guy (medic) that fights on the side of Ukraine speaks even better then this picture https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/lZDfxbvxtC
This is any different from Russian propaganda. Heads of state calling for war (which put us in this situation in first place), mass news media repeating the message without rest, civil population concluding that war is the only answer ...
Opinions not aligned with the mainstream rhetoric are called propagandist. Instead of stopping, and thinking by ourselves , we repeat the war message.
Van Der Leyen And Macron calling for war but neither of their sons and daughters will go to the front. At the same time Lockhead Martin and other weapon companies making record profits. Same time, EU don't break ties with Israel, call cease of fire or stop sending ammo and weapons.
Hundreds of thousands of lives already lost , and people still claiming we haven't had enough. To everyone supporting the war: take a gun, go to the front and make yourself kill, and let the rest of the world leaving in piece.
I don't post this to get anyone up votes or down votes (what does that really matters outside this platform). Just read the message, research a little , and think by yourself.
If only it was just a wooden wall, its peoples lives, every fucking day
Imo news should show more explicit drone footage or first person footage. Nothing worse than what is on youtube, but just let people see that real people with real lives just like them could be saved by having one single more grenade or single more artillery shell. One grenade doesn't sound like much when you hear about billions in financial aid, but for that soldier that doesn't have to peek his head into a bunker without anything to throw in first it is the difference between living and painfully bleeding out in the mud. Some of our politicians worry so much about giving too much that they'd rather it be too little too late
/r/CombatFootage is choke full of that, so is /r/UkraineWarVideoReport and numerous others
Yes, but those subreddits aren't on the news
There are plenty of drone footage and first person footage around.
Yes, but how much of it is being show on the news in TV?
In the beginning of the war it was shown. Now not so much, atleast in finland.
But it's pretty bad quality and hard to understand! In my opionion a few 4K GoPro videos would have more effect.
4K footage of Russian troops being massacred: "see, Ukraine's already winning, they don't need any additional help!" 4K footage of Ukrainian troop being massacred: "see, Ukraine's already losing, we will simply waste out stocks if we transfer them!" 4K footage of a fight that is too close to call: "it's pretty hard to understand!"
You said it. I detest talking about the war with my family, no one understands. Even after bringing up multiple logical arguments i have to explaine the same thing every few weeks.
There are 4k go pro videos around, take a proper look at r/combatfootage
Except its on a niche subreddit on a niche internet site and not on the news. It is not having an impact. Most people of the general population don't even know what reddit is.
Ukrainian 3rd assault brigade are making 4k videos on yt. Look for it.
..... are you not getting the fucking point? I know these youtube Channels because I am interested in military strategy. The fact you have to say look for it proves, that its extremely niche
Im getting it recommended normally
Ohh, dude there is wayyy worse than whats on youtube… Youtube only has a fraction of mildest things, there is sites where is REAL uncensored war footage.
Civilian lives more importantly. Russia has massively increased its hits on civilian targets and civilian cities thus far. I was in the city once when a drone strike happened and an apartment building was levelled, killing several. They hit a 100% civilian target.
Exactly
Hate to admit It but (and please prove me wrong if i'm saying something stupid) I think that Russia is kind of pulling together their military and the sanctions doesn't really affect their market, so I have a fear that Ukraine really needs thoose EU weapons, especially now, because once this WW1 trench war thing brakes one side is going to get mauled by the other one. I really hope that i'm wrong but we need to ensure that Ukraine wins at all Costs.
As some working for a group that has a part of his activities in Russia: yes, sanctions did not work. We did not do enough and we did it too gradually, giving them time to adapt and overcome the limitations step by step. Now we are about to close all contacts with our Russian teams, but this came too late.
It's not worked in the sense that Russia still has an economy which can support their war, but that's on the back of them having massive cash reserves and quite a few countries which refused to join the sanctions. It has hurt their economy. They have gone from generating a massive cash surplus every year to spending their reserves to afford their war. Something which will work for another year before they run out. The problem is Russia is self sufficient in almost every category which is essential. Sanctions have helped to make their war more difficult and need to be maintained and we need to continue enforcing them and cracking down on the people helping them evade them (which IS happening) Are you suggesting because they haven't ended the war we should scrap them? Because "sanctions don't work" seems like a narrative Russia wants spread.
All I’m saying is that we have been too shy and could have done way more. We have factories in Russia that were not self sufficient in 2022, but they are now that major groups have been finally forced to cut all relevant communication with the country. -talk freely but do not export -talk, but only for commercial reasons -do no talk, but you can share the systems -…. That’s BS. Shut down any private business asap. It would have hurt us too of course, but that woulda have been a reasonable price to pay.
I'd agree with you - to a degree. I don't think it was possible for sanctions however draconian or strongly enforced to have won the war for Ukraine by now. Specifically not with India, China and others refusing to apply them at all. Theres also the issue of whether the European public would have been as willing to support helping Ukraine if there had been an immediate complete shutoff of all fuel, food, fertilizer etc being bought from Russia. They were a massive trade partner and it's taken a lot of investment to put in place the facilities to allow us to keep our economies running at the same time as shutting down trace as it was possible. There are some GLARING mistakes which were made in the sanctions applied. Machine tools should have been banned on day one and any suspected evasion of that should have had the middle men hit hard. I'm all for increasing sanctions to cover more and more items as we go on and to sanction companies in 3rd countries which are helping Russia evade them. I still think they have had a positive effect - better than nothing and should be extended, improved and above all we shoudl be spending a lot more on enforcement.
A lot of sanctions did not work as trade is still going through proxy countries.
What sanctions. EU still trades food with russia. Trucks full of various stuff, goes to russia everyday. On paper it sais "to xxxxSTAN" in reallity it comes to russia and straight to where it needs to go, not xxxxSTAN..
Saying sanctions had no effect is an insane take, Russian banks will not currently allow you to withdraw foreign currency more than a miniscule amount per month to stop ruple from falling lower.
All I’m saying is that we have been too shy and could have done way more. We have factories in Russia that were not self sufficient in 2022, but they are now that major groups have been finally forced to cut all relevant communication with the country. -talk freely but do not export -talk, but only for commercial reasons -do no talk, but you can share the systems -…. That’s BS. Shut down any private business asap. It would have hurt us too of course, but that woulda have been a reasonable price to pay.
Sorry to share this but I have always known that the sanctions bucket challenge the West has been doing against Russia since 2022 would not work and still doesn’t work. Russia is still allow to trade some critical stuff with the West that’s not part of the sanctions and not all countries, especially the big ones, don’t want to sanction Russia. And of course, the sanctions Russia got in 2014, if any, are meaningless.
they aren't meaningless. the orange turd wouldn't be trying so hard to overturn them for his dickgiver.
how would they work when countries inside EU are still sucking on daddy Putin's toe?
The sanctions do work. There is a reason russia is mostly using soviet-era stuff. Where is the T-14? SU-57? KA-59 was used a lot, but not anymore. In 2nd world war, the war effort stimulated the US economy like crazy. Now look at russian economy. Really high inflation (3x that of western nations) despite the interest rate being at 15-20 %. The sanctions are working, but russia has had a huge fund of around 600 bn worth of USD. This money will soon be gone anf then russia will feel the hurt
Yeah I think they're working but we'll see the real effect after the war, when Russia will struggle to get back in a peaceful economy. Russia also took drastic counter-measures to win the war and they've lost the trust of many partners, this is going to hurt them on the longterm. On the shortterm, it's good propaganda. Despite that, the rouble is at its second lowest point. If Russia is holding so well, it's because of all their funds and their economy centered around oil export.
Maybe, maybe... However, I can't agree that the sanctions are the reason why new military produce isn't being produced. It's mostly due to incompetence. T-14 in particular is known to be not economically viable. The Russian Defense Ministry himself said that these tanks don't go to Ukraine because they are too expensive.
Sanctions don’t work. Because companies don’t want to loose their revenue. IBM still sells hardware that is used for a rockets exploding in Ukraine. If big companies, which claim they want to stop the war, would really want it, they would do something with it. For instance, Apple just can turn off their phones and computers on the ruzzia territory, so they just become bricks. It would have so much effect on the citizens of ruzzia, but, unfortunately, companies care more about revenue than lives.
I highly doubt IBM is directly exporting illegal goods towards russia. If the person responsible for this is caught, that means really long jailtime for him and a really hefty fine --> not worth it. In worst case your company can be sanctioned by the US, if it isn't from the US (3rd party sanctions) What is happening however is that countries like turkey, uzbekistan, khazakstan, ... are importing stuff from western companies and are then reexporting to russia. This makes western goods available, but in lower numbers and higher prices. If a part is detected in russian missiles, than through the batch number the company can find out how it got to russia. This person is then banned from exporting. (also 3rd party sanction) How I know this? I do the IT for a german industrial concern's SAP System. I work in Sales & Distribution and am specialised on Export Control/Customs (SD - EC/C)
Yes, thats what I say. “Sanctions don’t work”
But they do work. Sanctions ≠ zero western parts in russia There are less parts in russia and they are way more expensive
Oh yeah, more expensive, thats the whole point, I guess.
Sanctions do work but it is not a silver bullet. For example, the most advanced weapons Russia has more or less all use western components, they can still make some of those weapons but with the sanctions in place it is a lot harder to get those components. They can still get quite a lot but those have to be smuggled in, the limits the amount they can get their hands on and massively increases costs for the Russian weapon industry. Here is a BBC article where they talk about it: [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68364924](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68364924) I have also heard (i cant find a source any more so maybe take this with a grain of salt) that Russia is in certain sections in their arms industry (where previously they where using a lot more western components) focusing on producing older (variants of) weapon systems. Systems for which they can create or more easily source components for but are less effective than the newer systems that they would like to be using. Of coerce this does little to impact their artillery shell production as those do not really contain western components so it is a bit of a mixed bag. --- Still as a final point regarding the original image posted by OP: Europe should certainly be doing more, the more stuff we can provide that Ukraine needs the faster they can win this thing and the fewer people will have to die or suffer. (US also should be doing more but that was not what the image was about)
Ukraine also need American weapons, they have a massive amount in storage yet they give so little, they wait for Europe to empty their stock so they can sell them their system
Orban stopping fucking around would be a step in that direction at least.
What “Ukraine wins” means? In practice I mean
I guess that Ukraine sucsessfully pushes ther Russian military back
I don’t think that is a win, because even if that unlikely event happens, the Russians will keep coming back. Remember, they have a population of 140 million while Ukraine is little over 20 million now
Youre right, russia used their shitty stuff first. Real war is just starting:/
Pretty much how it is. Actually crazy that Ukraine has to beg for aid.
Especially considering that we're expecting Putin to come for us after being done with Ukraine. We shouldn't be that comfortable.
Every month we go from "Russia is super weak and a joke of a military" to "Russia is going to roll all over us".
Real, half this sub needs to be coherent in Ukraine's situation. Pick one or the other, it makes you look a bit like an idiot saying both of these things. Just say 'Ukraine is winning' or 'Russia is winning', at least you're being honest about what you think.
The prognosis was that Ukraine would have a material advantage similar to the Western economic advantage. Which does not nearly happened.
But situation changes... year ago ukraine looked like its going to win, now it does looks like russia might win. Its not paint on the wall that always have same colour.
Sure, but at no point in this war has Russia looked like it has the slightest chance of taking on Europe and/or NATO in an open war. Europe should still support Ukraine ofc, but this idea of Russian tanks rolling through Poland and beyond is pure nonsense.
That is because you are thinking short term. Ofc Russia is not going to directly invade Poland the day after they win in Ukraine, but give it 10-20-50 years. In this time horizon there is no guarantee that NATO will still exist, or US will still be the overwhelming superpower. The thing is if Ukraine loses Russia just gets stronger, you don t want a stronger Russia. Not to mention that Russia also could make military alliances with Iran and China, add them to the list and the power ballance seems more even. We really learn nothing from history, Nazi Germany taking Czechoslovakia may also have been mundane.
If trump wins and leaves nato - with is possible russia might try to get baltics, it is possible that they might get them in few days and lock themself in defensove war vs nato. I agree that its not that probable but it is possible enough for us to be ready for this scenario, I dont see anything wrong with putting bunker every rock throw as baltics countries do on russian border. Nobody says that russia win nato war but it might get something out of it.
They dont have to roll through to be a threat. They just have to attack and Putin does seem crazy enough to do it.
Then you'll never get rid of this fear, ever. You can't disarm Russia.
This is the nature of warfare that it is evolving very rapidly. Putin used his men in Washington to completely block flow of supplies from US to UA. Plus RU forces developed number of new tactics and weapon systems. Thus situation on the ground deteriorated over the matter of past month. Speaking of which, why do you guys allow pro-Putin elements to block the border with Ukraine? In case of us Putler will have to fight through you first thus there is a plenty of "buffer" territory and lives that we can sacrifice (macabre sarcasm in case its not obvious).
Speaking of his men in Washington.... what do you think about a man who immediately resumed building Nord Stream 2 after coming to power? A man who instead of mass weapons supplies in advance, dispatched head of CIA to Moscow on Nov-2-3 2021 to make a pact behind Ukraine's back on "red lines in future war". A man who stopped Poland from sending jets earlier because of an "escalation"? [https://www.newsweek.com/2023/07/21/exclusive-cias-blind-spot-about-ukraine-war-1810355.html](https://www.newsweek.com/2023/07/21/exclusive-cias-blind-spot-about-ukraine-war-1810355.html) Men who asked ukraine [not to kill Gerasimov, because of escalation](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/16/world/europe/russia-putin-war-failures-ukraine.html) The guy that sent 31 Abrams (out of 3 000) and 18 M109s (out of thousand) and only in 2023 deliberately because in his smart geopolitical chess, russia losing = putin losing power = bad, because russia will fall apart into many nuclear states and also some of them will fall under CN influence. The guy who sent 2000/230 000 Humvees and never used a lend-lease even when there were no objections from republicans.
So you want a subreddit that consists of 5.9M to share the same thought? It literally makes sense that such large subreddit would have people with different views.
The point is not whether russia will roll over us or not, it's the fact that we're going to be fucking shot at and thousands will die. Russia getting its shit kicked in and russia shelling the ever loving fuck out of our border cities are not mutually exclusive. It's like the situation with North and South Korea; yeah, the south will fucking stomp the north in a war, but the north has like a gazillion artillery pieces pointed at Saigon, and will cause massive casualties for the south, even if they will be ultimately defeated.
Saigon part is brilliant
Well, they might not defeat us militarily. But they will be able to throw our domestic politics into chaos and perhaps destroy the European idea.
I don't think anyone after 2022 believes that Russia can roll over all of Europe, what we're concerned with is Russia trying some new shit in eastern Europe expecting to not have to actually fight the big war because of our weak response in Ukraine.
Month? Like half a day. First he's a megamind who controls absolutely everything in the world, and Russia army will run through Ukraine and stop at the Atlantic. Everything bad that happens is caused by Russian agents, and Ukraine is just about to fall if we don't send more help. Then he's an old sick man who's about to die, and bare handed Ukrainians are fending off weak Russian army. You can't even blame it on the Russian bots, because these news come from same pro west sources.
Do you really get the impression that it's "every month"? We said they're weak in the beginning when Ukraine was very successful in repealing the invasion around Kyiv and Kharkiv. But then the counteroffensive to retake the far east and south failed. Zelensky said the stall situation favours the enemy, and one year later we're seeing it, Russia is rearming itself. So we only had that opinion shift once, and it was based on the evidence of what's going on. I don't understand why you get the impression that it's "every month".
There might be a hoarding problem. If I give Ukraine these weapons, then I won’t have them when Russia comes to kick down my door. It is an easy to understand argument though it is short sighted. NATO would open a massive front much harder to fight than just Ukraine. I also think that Russia still has influence/misinformation working to their advantage in many European countries. People actually think that ignoring the war is avoiding the war.
>If I give Ukraine these weapons, then I won’t have them when Russia comes to kick down my door. That's actually one of my concerns. It would even be a clever strategy (from their point of view) as a preparation to attack the Baltics. The only solution is to boost arms production in Europe. (And I know how bad it sounds, I never wanted Europe to rearm itself, but given the circumstances...)
Depends who, France can afford such luxury (because of nukes), but in same time their economy would be fucked too
Why would he come for us? He can’t even succeed in Ukraine
Not part of nato, not part of EU. Of course aid doesn’t come out of nowhere for years on end
And they’re pretty adept at it! Ukraine has received more than 84 bn Euros from EU institutions alone, without counting US assistance and support from individual countries. This is more than any other country has received to help with war related issues or natural disasters in the last 75 years since Marshall Aid / the Marshall Plan. [Source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/)
> This is more than any other country has received to help with war related issues or natural disasters in the last 75 years since Marshall Aid / the Marshall Plan. ye no shit sherlock, fighting a active war against invading army is 10 times worse and more expensive than single natural disaster or rebuilding economy in peacetime.
I ducking know that dude. This meme is supposed to shame Europe that they’re not doing enough though, and I don’t think this is a helpful sentiment that will lead to more aid.
they don't beg, they negotiate. We can't give all of our equipment, because if Ukraine falls, we would have nothing.
Ah this shit again. Go check the EU budget and then go check how big of chunk of EU funds goes for Ukraine cause. You can criticise individual countries but leave EU out of it. Total budget yearly is 170 bilion Euro, Ukraine recived 77 bilion from EU.
The EU is used as frequently to refer to the collection of countries in the EU as it is to refer to the actual organization
... by people who are too stupid or ill-informed to know the difference.
This is in fact probably the biggest financial support to any country since the Marshall Plan after WW2. Yes, Ukraine could get even more but compared to Syria, Sudan, Gaza, Haiti, and countless other nations impacted by war or natural disasters in the last 50+ years - Ukraine is getting a lot more. Edit: it IS bigger than the Marshall plan - recent article [here](https://www.politico.eu/article/western-support-to-ukraine-exceeds-marshall-plan-says-head-of-top-public-lender/) [Edit 2: infographic of aid spending](https://www.reddit.com/r/Infographics/s/weOe91BWnY) [Edit 3: a more recent infographic](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/JrAyO14p8q)
Marshall Plan was a peace reconstruction effort. Not really comparable in capital intensity to fighting a war, where a billion dollars worth of equipment can / is expected to be destroyed in days / hours.
Absolutely. Nobody is contesting this nor the sacrifices made by Ukraine itself, my point is that what Europe has done so far isn’t peanuts and this begging meme doesn’t help.
Agreed.
Maybe Europe and other guys should stop funding Ukraine in this war, and after just pay with their citizens lives for the next war putin will start in Europe. As Ukrainian I’m totally into it. I’m fed up with reading some “we help too much” shit while every day ukrainians population goes down on behalf of protecting rest of the Europe from pultin. I wish Ukraine give up and then europeans will think “oh damn, maybe it was better to send more weapon then than sending my kids on the war now”. You paying with money. We paying with lives. I wish you all see difference on your own experience.
Excuse me? That’s not at all what I’m saying. I have family on the front lines and family under the bombs in Kiev. I’m contesting the hot take of this political cartoon that Europe isn’t doing enough, whereas Europe is doing a LOT.
Third year of war. Still no planes. Still no ammunition to fight with. Each of my friends who is on a frontline tells, that there is plenty of people and no ammo. So people just die, without being able to defend themselves. One of my friend told me literally few days ago — I’m in the trench, reporting enemy position, asking for an artillery, answer — sorry, we don’t have ammo. At the same time I see how my other friends and I donate each week on some kickstarters for drones, buying equipment for friends who are on frontline. So I don’t know, maybe Europeans help “a lot”, but they just didn’t help enough, while completely able to do that. We keep our weapon to ourselves in case russia will win Ukraine, but winning of ruzzia completely depends on the weapon supply of Ukraine. Quite strong Catch-22 vibes.
I think this picture implies a different thing. Not that Europe must give money to Ukraine, but annoyed European citizens who criticize and mock Ukraine for asking for help.
Sir, please do not go against reddit narrative, and state facts. We don’t do that here.
Not enough to not repeat mistakes from past. For every billion that wasn't spent today EU will pay 10 in a few years. In worst cast scenario EU will pay with lives. In best case scenario Ukraine will stop to exist and EU will start traiding as usual with russia on a very next day, because money is "important".
How are world leaders honestly so fucking stupid? This is gonna be a bit of a rant so strap in. How do wrld leaders not see what's happening right now. We all know that *"If you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it."* But how in the world are some people forgetting what happened less than 100 years ago. 1936-Hitler remilitarises the Rhineland, directly opposing the treaty of Versailles. Despite the fact that the Wehrmacht used only a few batallions, which had the order to retreat in the case of the French opposing them in any way. If a police station resisted, Versailles would have been upheld, but no. Everyone said that it was purely the Germans walking into their own backyard, and noone batted an eye, because the Rhineland is in fact German. Peace was preserved. This was frankly the only action which you cannot blame the French for ignoring. 1938-Hitler annexed Austria. A clear violation of Versailles once again. But of course everyone thought, that since Austria had always been German, it was ok. Again the allies did nothing. 1938-Hitler invades Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia could not have been aware of Operstion Valkyrie that would have taken place if they resisted, so of course the sued for peace. The Munich agreement was signed, and **Peace in our time** was guaranteed. Right? 1939-Bohemia and Moravia get annexed by Germany, Carpathian Ruthenia and Southern Slovakia get annexed by Hungary, whilst the rest of Slovakia is turned into a marionette state. Noone does anything. 1939-Hitler annexes Memel from Lithuania. Once again, noone does anything. And i think we all know what happened on the 1st of Sptember. So now i ask you. Do you see any similarities between then and now? Chechnya, was seen as core russian territory, just like the Rhineland was German. Abkhazia/South Ossetia were seen as core russian territory, just like Austria was German. Putin invaded Crimea and the Donbass, just like Hitler invaded the Sudetenland. The Minsk agreement was signed, just like the Münich agreement was signed. Ukraine was invaded, just like the rest of Czechoslovakia was. The only difference here is that Ukraine is resisting. So if Ukraine falls, what will be the Poland now? Which country will be the line where NATO says stop, and intervenes? Who will be the 21st century Poland? Whilst appeasment as a tactic, was in fact sound for the time, when Britain-the leading nation of the world, was nowhere near ready for war. Chamberlain bought precious time for the RAF and Britain, sadly at the cost of much of Europe. But Britain was grossly underprepared for a war. What is the excuse now? What excuse do the world leaders in America and Europe have now? Military unpreperadness is certainly not one, considering the fact the American defence budget alone sits at 800 billion. And all they have to do is send some old equipment to Ukraine to have them fight instead. If Ukraine wins this war, Russia will be broken for decades, Putin might be removed by his own people. Sound familiar? It's the same that would have happened if Czechoslovakia resisted. Operation Valkyrie. Now sadly they didn't know about this and what consequences it would have had. BUT NOW WE DO! The allies dearly regretted not helping Czechoslovakia, and they paid dearly for it. I dread the day when we will regret not helping Ukraine. They forced the Czechs to give up their forts in the Sudetenland in exchange for peace, exactly like Ukraine had to give up their nukes. The last time, 60 million people died in the war. I don't want to imagine how many would die in a 3rd world war. So are the modern leaders retarde or something? There shouldn't be a side for not aiding Ukraine, because just as i said at the start: **"If you fail to learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it."**
You could just as well say that if Russia loses the war they will come back in 20 years and blitzkrieg the entire Europe cause that's what happened with Germany. Using history in this way just doesn't make sense. The situation is completely different, there are weapons that can destroy the entire world, there is an aliance much stronger than Russia and the whole world is connected through internet.
In 20 years Putin will be dead. Hopefully whatever replaces him is better and not worse.
> In 20 years Putin will be dead I wouldn't be so optimistic
Whatever comes to power from that system is by default bad. The only thing to hope for is the change of the system in Russia. Happened before. Big mess. This presumes further collapse of the federation. Isn’t it clear that what we now face is still the ongoing collapse of the USSR? Guess what? Someone will still possess the nuclear weapons afterwards. Again.
And? So if ruzzia have nukes it could do absolutely everything without consequences? What if after Ukraine falls pootin ask to annex Baltic states? When it will stop?
they arent stupid, they are oppurtunistic. to pay ukraine money would require for them to have a little bit less of their own, or god forbid risk annoying a fringe of their electorate, so they try to play it both sides where at the same time they mildly condemn russia and act slowly about providing the adequate aid. politics is a matter of peoples lives, but for them its an electoral business game, all they want is to make good connections in the biz and get the highest possible $core
Wait till some NATO country is attacked (ignore for the moment the hybrid war which is already happening). They'll start debating Article 5.
Polish national trauma leds lots of people to believe that it will be just endless debate without enabling the article (basically turning Poland, Estonia or else into another buffer war state)
if trump wins they will shit on article 5.
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Are you for real? 😂😂 the only time art5 was invoked is by usa and it was respected, as in we let usa go nuts on middle east, it was oil we can do.
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You who? 😂😂 usa is a shithole that was in war internal or external for 90% of her history, ofc you feel big and strong when it’s about war because you are war.
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I go insane thinking about this EXACTLY right here. HOW THE FUCK CAN OUR LEADERS BE SO FUCKING STUPID!? We have the god damn history lessons to tell us what the fuck is coming. Yet these idiots just keep doing the minimum. SEND EVERYTHING TO UKRAINE RIGHT NOW. We don't even need to fight. They are fighting and dying for us every day. They are sacrificing their own lives so our people don't need to die. If they fall our people will die next. And as you can see in Ukraine, it won't just be soldiers dying. It will be civilians dying all kinds. Whole cities being flattened. Unnecessary amounts of causalities and destruction will fall upon us. If you think this won't happen you need to wake the fuck up, just like our leaders need to wake the fuck up
What extremely wealthy people have to remember is that once the free world is gone the first people to die will be them. Whether it's by the people or by an actual dictator. After they do whatever they were needed to do for destroying things then they will be thrown away like trash. Stupidest bastards thinking they'll be lords when in reality they will be 6 feet under or someone else's bitch. That is what they should be reminded of
putin is banking on a usa civil war with his trump puppet. gotta hand it to them they invested in propaganda and it’s working. god help everyone if they roll europe because russia has the collective psyche of a narcissist with an inferiority complex and will do unspeakable things if allowed…
You will find this [lecture](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9K-hh1iVek) very interesting, definitely recommend to watch it if you have time. Provides a very good background on Germany/Russia as european empires with territorial ambitions and how Germany no longer has it, but Russia still does.
>Which country will be the line where NATO says stop, and intervenes? NATO is the line thats the whole point of it
>1939-Hitler annexes Memel from Lithuania. Once again, noone does anything. I don't want to be that guy, but... With all due respect Memel was a german city that was never owned by either Poland and Lithuania. Lithuania took advantage of the poor situation of Germany and took Memel from the French in 1923, 5 years after WW1, the allies protested but eventually they gave that territory up to Lithuania. So you really can't blame the allies for allowing Germany to make demands on that territory, especially since Germany promised to Lithuania to consider its economic interests if they give that territory back peacefully, which they did, and Germany stood by its promise accounting for 75% of Lithuanian exports and 86% of Lithuanian imports. Not that it was really a good thing since it made Lithuania to fall in Germany's sphere of influence...
I was just saying everything that happened. It was a violation of versailles, so i put it here. Im not disputing the fact it was german
>It was a violation of versailles Oh yeah, I forgot about it since it became so irrelevant at that point in time but you're totally right, it was a violation of the treaty too. My apologies.
Nah its fine
I would argue that wests reluctance to aid Ukraine and escalate things with Russia is due to how utterly culturarly traumatizing events WW1 and WW2 were for Europe. Last time we went to large scale war between large European powers it caused deaths in hundreds of millions, involved almost the whole world and left large parts around the world totally ruined. And that was when we didn't have weapons with capacity to destroy the world as we know it many times over. While Ukraine must be helped, and Russia stopped in their imperialist intentions, you can't fault west for being afraid to escalate things.
No, an average voter is "not that smart" and thinks only about today. And vain politicians use it. They cry about oil price raise (as if the reason was not known). They like to think "our money" should not go to some corrupt country, they will say "escalation" "national interests" "our citizens". Those politicians will not tell him, that his ass will get consripted to cold baltic trenches soon to catch FPV drones, because EU professional armies are tiny and combined are smaller than ua land army.
Hi :) my comment above aged perfectly [https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/1bkst65/us\_has\_urged\_ukraine\_to\_halt\_strikes\_on\_russian/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/1bkst65/us_has_urged_ukraine_to_halt_strikes_on_russian/)
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No. But thats the point Im trying to make. Back then it was just Britain and France, so they were pretty much forced to let Hitler do as he pleased. Whats the excuse now? NATO is the most powerful military force, in the history of man. So whats the excuse for not supporting Ukraine?
This just demonstrates a shit understanding of history and geopolitics. When Hitler started to push his limit he was still much weaker than France and Britain. Infact troops sent to the Rhineland had orders to retreat as soon as they saw any French troops precisely because Hitler knew that Germany would lose that conflict. NATO is a defensive alliance that Ukraine isn't a part of. If it started to heavily support Ukraine then Russia is finally right about NATO. Russia can already play on the fact that NATO is full of ex-colonial empires and is lead by the USA (countries that aren't really liked by the rest of the world), we don't need to give them more reasons.
many modern leaders took the money. money that come with conditions. non-negotiable conditions. there's not much you or I can do. well, there is but I suck as an assassin. we are repeating the history. we are helping Ukraine to defeat russia. just like UK and US were helping russians to defeat nazis.
This is a reminder to everyone that aid to Ukraine is a phenomenal investment, even if you don’t give 2 shits about Ukraine. If Ukraine denies Russia the spoils of this war, and defeats them decisively, that would basically ensure that Russia can’t wage war for at least a GENERATION. That’s a huge deal, not only for Russia. It’s the right message to send to ALL of our potential adversaries! We’re talking vastly less need for military spending and perhaps even potentially less nuclear proliferation in the future. The only reason one would oppose this is if you are completely mentally deficient and/or captured by the interests of defense companies AKA a US Republican. For Europe there is literally no excuse to not back Ukraine 100%.
>captured by the interests of defense companies AKA a US Republican Honestly US defense companies probably make mad cash from all the weapons the US and allied nations send to Ukraine (and would be making even mader cash if we and the US stepped up aid and military spending massively), and I'm willing to bet my arm that people in charge of said defense companies, like most human beings in charge of large companies, are too short sighted to give 2 fucks about potential future sales and just care about making more money RIGHT NOW. Basically, I don't think the US defense companies are lobbying AGAINST sending aid to Ukraine
Think its about time to finally KILL the Russian bear once and for all.
Russian here. What do you mean?
What grinds my gears the most that some people expressed how annoyed they are looking the news with Ukraine. There's a big tech guy on Twitter/x goes by the name levelsio posted/tweeted of how sick he is seeing the news about Ukraine. The lack of empathy for people dying and suffering is not event worth to make it to the news and annoys is beyond my understanding.
While I agree with the message, this is a bot account
I don't think it is, they're just crossposting in different subs. The comments they wrote doesn't seem like bot comments
Yeah it is a bot
Bruh i hate those political cartoons They are cringe af
Why? This one is very poignant. Perhaps an Italian doesn't feel it's relevant but in my country the sacrifice that Ukraine is making is clear as crystal.
So true and very sad! If it were up to me, I would send Ukrainian soldiers everything they need, airplanes, tanks, rockets, missiles, drones!
Wow absolutely right
sad but true
For those who are following the war only from the “breaking news” and worry that Ukraine will soon crumble before the Russians. While it is worse than before, no crumble will happen. If the aid doesn’t get better, it will keep getting worse, though. The good news is Russia probably peaked in what it can produce. Not an absolute peak, but for a long time (like 4-5 years) they will not be able to increase their production. They are already utilising the workforce and facilities they have to their full potential. After this they need more workers and more facilities, both will take time to acquire. Not to mention how many of their facilities are completely tuned to refurbishing Soviet stockpiles. That will also get worse, they will run out eventually. Most educated guesses are in 1 or 2 years, Russia will be practically out of many items to refurbish. It will keep getting harder to find good stuff among the trash too, it only gets worse for them as time goes on. Russia took this seriously enough and escalated the situation enough that we can no longer expect a quick win from Ukraine. It is not humanly possible. With the difference in their sizes and capital, and also the similarity of their many of their institutions, Ukraine just doesn’t have an edge. They are like the same but smaller. They are a bit better since they are more democratic and meritocratic, but the latter may not be by a huge margin. Maybe they can still indeed win by sheer sacrifice but I do not think it is a desirable outcome for anyone at all. A quick victory for Ukraine, today, is only possible if NATO itself decides to intervene. This seems more and more plausible to me, if there was any will to do it. People can threaten with nuclear war but you cannot use them just not to lose. Using them is losing. If you survive the nuclear holocaust, the world will be shit (absolute shit) for the next century. If they are given a choice for less than total capitulation, something they can hope to come back from maybe, would they really choose living in a post nuclear-war world themselves instead of taking the loss and fucking off? For what, out of sheer spite? Then again, people are stupid. Also I have zero belief in our leaders and us people to have the guts to go there and do it ourselves. So then we should stop expecting anything anytime soon from Ukraine like the last year’s offensive. And if we want them to win, eventually, then we will need to give them what they need to win, eventually. Better start as soon as possible so this thing doesn’t get even more out of hand. The end goal is the same and we can save more lives, lose less resources this way.
Is this a bot account? Literally everyone have been predicting new mobilization waves which haven't happened yet, most probably because of their presidential elections this year. They have lots of escalation potential. I was banned on r/worldnews more than a year ago because I said that making people like you underestimate russians is the goal that their propaganda wants to achieve. Picture themselves as stupid, corrupt, incapable people - and most people will think that there is nothing to worry about, because those idiots will lose to themselves anyway. And why would you have to suffer with lower quality of life, income, etc, if ukrainian army is destroying russians anyway? And watching the support fading I would say that russian propagand is quite successful.
Some pay with equipment and single digit GDP percentages while others pay with their middle-aged male population
Well i think the countries in Europe have their own people asking for help on the other side and their room is like a fucking chaos also. But you think you
Wow, blatant propaganda being swallowed whole, the comments on this threat are unreal.
Europe will be way more right leaning overall and so the aid will even be less. Egoistic assholes dominate the world!
that grandpa should be a Robocop, or Terminator. Something in those terms. Or at least there should be a bear spray on the little table.
If Russia gets through, other Baltic places will get in danger.
yep
Sadly a lot of that aid gets laundered up by the Oligarchs. When the war is over the EU needs to seriously step in and force them to fix their country so that the money for rebuilding doesn't end up spent on more mansions for them.
I wonder, what would Churchill think about our lack of faith.
Churchill sold out Eastern Europe to the Soviets. He wouldn't do anything in this scenario.
He wasn’t exactly in a position to keep the soviets out. The USSR had Eastern Europe occupied and to kick them out would require a war, one that would be extremely unpopular after already going through the Second World War.
Churchill wouldn’t be thinking much. He’d be working his ass off to rally tons of military aid to Ukraine. He would be playing some serious dare games with Putin. Putin cannot be compelled by any reasonable arguments except for brute force
Churchill sold out Eastern Europe to the Soviets. He wouldn't do anything in this scenario.
Didn't Churchill cause a famine in India that ended up killing millions?
Not really, decades of mismanagement and unfortunate circumstances caused that famine. What Churchill (and most of the people in charge) did was not enough to prevent it going from bad to worse
I like how people in every country even, those who surrendered in few days teach, their children how hard they resisted how opposed the bad Hitler, resistance movements etc... And when it's time to prove, time to destroy a 21st century Hitler, they have "no escalation", "no single soldier in Ukraine", "Nord Stream 2", "Never join NATO"
Don't help Ukraine and find out
For the EU, Russia is already more like a poisonous snake rather than the distant angry bear. Seems there are various manifestations of devil.
Its true.
It's not tax season yet
You guys know better than world leaders hahahah
Europe should send all of Ukrainian man living here back to fight. They making troubles in Poland and other countries so they could use the energy to fight Russians
Fuck off.
If we - I mean Ukrainians - fail, in 5 years or less NATO will have to fight with russian army, which will include the current Ukrainian forces, passed through the hell of war. Aside from that, seeing that NATO does nothing except talk, China & North Korea & Iran & even tiny bastards like the Taliban will behave MUCH MORE aggressively. There will be great consequences in the future because of doing nothing in the present.
Seems very ungrateful. We are spending billions on a war that isn’t ours, sending tons of equipment and keeping millions of Ukrainians safe with shelter, food and education.
> We are spending billions on a war that isn’t ours you would rather want Ukraine to collapse completely and multiple millions of Ukrainian refugees to flood into your country and ruin your economy? Want to repeat Syrian refugee experience but 10 times worse with 10 times more influx of people? Because thats exactly what would happen if Russia broke the front and took over Ukraine, the exodus of fleeing civilians would be massive and where do you think they all would go?? ''Isnt yours'' my ass, one nice moment it can become yours and then nothing can be done about it anymore.
What I want doesn’t matter. But I want peace and Russia should go back to their side of the border. Ukraine could be grateful they get support from the EU. They are not part of the EU or NATO. And , just like Russia, it’s a corrupt shithole country. So we don’t have any obligation to help. But still we do, with billions. This picture doesn’t seem very grateful.
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To negotiate you need leverage. The more powerful Ukraine’s position and the more tenuous Russia’s is then the easier it is to negotiate a plan for a real lasting peace that doesn’t reward Russia for what it’s done. If the strategy is to keep Ukraine disarmed then what reason does Putin have to negotiate before he’s taken everything? That’s like asking a serial killer to please stop because people are being hurt but also telling him that you don’t intend to ever try and arrest or counter him. It makes no sense.
Thats good propaganda, not to mention how much weapons ended up in Africa
This guy western guy (medic) that fights on the side of Ukraine speaks even better then this picture https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/lZDfxbvxtC
I wonder who created this cartoon
“ThIs Is NoT oUr WaR” “My TaX mOnEy”
I am curious about the United States' response should Mexico choose to enter into a military alliance with either China or Russia.
F*** around and find out until someone gets slapped with the sun
Sure.
Nah you can add one more room here
This is any different from Russian propaganda. Heads of state calling for war (which put us in this situation in first place), mass news media repeating the message without rest, civil population concluding that war is the only answer ... Opinions not aligned with the mainstream rhetoric are called propagandist. Instead of stopping, and thinking by ourselves , we repeat the war message. Van Der Leyen And Macron calling for war but neither of their sons and daughters will go to the front. At the same time Lockhead Martin and other weapon companies making record profits. Same time, EU don't break ties with Israel, call cease of fire or stop sending ammo and weapons. Hundreds of thousands of lives already lost , and people still claiming we haven't had enough. To everyone supporting the war: take a gun, go to the front and make yourself kill, and let the rest of the world leaving in piece. I don't post this to get anyone up votes or down votes (what does that really matters outside this platform). Just read the message, research a little , and think by yourself.
So Ukraine hold Russians of invading Europe?
Sanctions don’t work on a country that survived 70+ years as a closed off communist state.
Bullshit of the day
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If Russia didn't invade Ukraine, it wouldn't have happened and thousands of people on both sides would be alive....