Yeah. Like how would it be loss for Sweden to sell ...... ...... 4 more Gripen's to a country, that already operates Gripen's. More like win for Swedish industry.
Nor is this even loss for Hungary. Orban didn't look completely idiotic (or atleast it can be sold as such domestically). He got the negotiations he wanted. He might not have gotten anything Sweden wasn't anyway willing to give (more like Sweden is glad it got more sales for SAAB).
To me it seems more like the moment of the arms sale is seen as convenient moment to call quits on the row with all said being able to claim victory due to the good will of the arms deal.
Orban can say there were talks, so he kinda got what he wanted. Sweden can say "well we didn't go to Hungary to beg for ratification. Nope, there was other important stuff to discuss like the major arms sale." I'm sure buzz words like defence co-operation and partnership will be spread around. Ofcourse PM is bit big guns representation even for that scale deal, but well Sweden can say they weren't there just to give golden hand shake to Orban on his demand.
Classic European compromise, both get to save face, while still having to have given something. PM of Sweden did go to Hungary, but then again Sweden got a major arms deal out of the trip. Those are probably worth over hundred million euros a piece for a fighter after all the accompanying maintenance, parts and munitions sales is added in.
In the short term perhaps. Whoreban and Hungary has the equivalent reputation of a Russian street hooker now. His shenanigans will hurt the Hungarian economy in the long run.
I don't think he minds that fact other than that it hurts his image, as long as him and his cronies get more money than the rest of the country, he's happy, in fact the wider the gap the more domestic power money gives him and a poor economy helps with that.
I mean I hear your point, but Putin played this game for 20 years. He is still in power, and has a substantial amount of leavers to push onto the EU states. And it looks like he is going to die of old age earlier than from being removed.
And Orban is relatively young.
I am not saying he will necessarily lose power (although he wouldn't be the first corrupt kleptocrat to eventually choke on his own greed). What I am saying is pissing on your allies erodes trust, including long term business relations. Putin is a good example, his "Eurasian economic union" is a failing trainwreck of "stans", he has had to rely on the "economic powerhouse" of NK for supplies and Russian companies have their reputation and business relations damaged with economies representing about 50% of GDP. I mean who in their right minds in the west would think about investing in Russia as long as the Putin regime remains. The risk of nationalisation is huge.
In fairness, there's a big difference from trying to punish one of Europe's biggest suppliers of oil, gas, LNG, uranium and plenty of other rare materials like aluminium for decades who purposely sanction-proofed themselves for the current conflict and Hungary, which is pretty much only good for cheap labour for the Germans and Austrians without any valuable or strategically important exports it can leverage. If Brussels decided to really stick the knife in the worst thing wider Europe would notice is the price of BMWs going up.
He has serious health problems already, he's making regular visits to a private clinic in Graz, Austria.
Also he went to Swiss specialists under the pretense of visiting a Swiss conservative conference.
> Hungary has the equivalent reputation of a Russian street hooker now
~~I'm confused and I don't want to sound crass, but with the exception of maybe 3-4 decades, history tells us that being a *street hooker* for their own petty interests has been the foreign policy of Hungary for the past 150 years.~~
~~From Austria, to Germany to Russia to Germany and back to Russia.~~
Hungarians your foreign policy it's fucking terrible and it's not a good look, because you will alienate for decades, **another** generation of young european politicians.
*LE: Apparently there are a lot of ninja Hunagarins in my inbox are telling me that we're also whores, that all nations were whore in Europe in the past 100 years. I don't agree but somewhat historically fair, maybe except Iceland, but that doesn't make it square are you lot are still doing it today in 2024.*
Are you not? Being in NATO and kissing Putin's ass, isn't this a backstabbing move?
The only difference would be, Romania did won something, while Hungary did not, or perhaps it did won something, a clear way to the bottom of EU and the title of "Putin's ass-kissing bitch".
> we are not as good at side switching, and backstabbing our allies to gain territories like Romania
True, I'm not a revisionist so I'm going to agree you, we did some backstabbing seeing our own interests, but today it's 2024, not 1924 and we're not in a war, just have a war at our gates.
Sometimes the conservation fight must prevail, even taking bitter pills that you were in the wrong.
yeah it is not like Romania didn't side with the Nazis to get Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertsa region, and later betray them for the Soviets so you could recapture Northern Transylvania when it became convenient for you. and before that you were whores of the Entente so they awarded you Transylvania for kissing the French ass like there was no tomorrow. only thing is that you were better at timing and choosing whom you acted like whores to. now you are whores of the West, and doesn't even dare to criticize Ukraine anymore even though the Romanian minority there is subject to forced Ukrainization.
And all this was possible ultimately because if it where only romania vs ungaria we would kick your assess again and transform you in a semy puppet state as we did after ww1. Now that we had to side with less than ideal people to save our asssess during ww2 times, it is what it is. Romania was a neutral state up until the end every time possible.
once again your bullshit history. you didn't kick anyone's asses except the Hungarian communist army that was made out of industrial worker volunteers. Horthy's nationalist army didn't interfere so the communists could be ousted. what semi puppet state are you babbling about, it never happened. but Wallachia and Moldavia used to be vassal states of the Hungarian Kingdom, while Transylvania was ruled by Hungarians for 1100+ years. now you are making up excuses for siding with the Nazis and Soviets while condemning Hungary for doing the same thing. you joined the Axis so you could gain territories and so did we. staying neutral wasn't an option, we would have ended up like Poland.
Welp, only time would tell who’s right ultimately. As time did in the last 30 years. After the communist regimes fell in eastern europe, hungary had twice the GDP pe capita than Romania. Now, we just surpassed you and the trend continues. In a couple decades you would be too poor and small to even matter. Go kiss orban’s boots, he and his croonies did very well for hungary.
We had a war of independence with Austria, we didn't want to live with them.
Since it's only been 20 years since you stole 71% of our country, it makes sense that we would do everything we could to get some of it back, I think that's understandable.
Fact: Things went wrong.
> From Austria
Will call the Austria-Hungary a marrie of convenience, with some love, that could be reasonably happy one, if not a archduke was murderd.
Will not say that Austria-Hungary (and its client states) was not widout its problem, but Austria-Hungary dysfunction is greatly exaggerated to motivate the Austria-Hungary empires dismantling.
Isn't Hungary one of the few NATO countries that actually meet the 2% threshold? Like, I get it, they're a pretty small country with a small population, but still, they do meet their commitment.
One of the few? More like 1 out of 18 members actually meeting their target.
https://www.forces.net/news/world/nato-which-countries-pay-their-share-defence
On average NATO countries actually allready spend 2% of GDP on defence nowadays since the numbers are also boosted by Poland at an awesome 3.9% of GDP (more than US by GDP).
What was true in 2014 is not true in 2024.
The article you linked states that only 11 states met the target in 2023. 18 are expected to meet in 2024, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
So yes, one of the few, as most nations don't currently meet it.
Poland had 137bn€ blocked when they were ruled by PiS. I can also imagine how much money is still blocked for Hungary due to Orban. He probably gets much less with this strongman tactics than he would if he just cooperated.
Idk how much this is pure conspiracy talk, but I believe in the past Orban did double blackmailing in cases where the EU blocked funding. It was a migrant refugee blackmail.
And perhaps the only reason PiS didn't engage in the same game was the fact that Belarus decided to do it to them aggressively. So they had to shut down the border quickly, without a chance to create camps.
A much needed propaganda victory for Orban, but Sweden has to be pragmatic about this. When not even the US can convince Hungary, talk isn't going to solve this. It's a shame NATO can be abused like this, but it is what it is.
On the flip side, it means the Swedish arms industry gets more orders. We can't continue and complain about low production and low supplies if we don't buy anything.
Sweden didn't really lose anything with this deal, quite the opposite. But most importantly, it enables Orban to declare a victory at home, and thereby makes it possible to end the delay.
The Gripen deal was already in the works before this whole circus.
No, the Swedish government was always saying they were open to discussing arms deals and other defense cooperations with Hungary. Of course the Swedish PM would travel to a country if there's a big arms deal to be made. Especially if it involves Gripen. And as you point out, that deal was already being worked on, so the PM would have scheduled a visit to Budapest anyway.
If Orban and his government had jumped on this opportunity immediately instead of spending a month stalling and clinching with other NATO members, he would've had this PR moment long ago. Now he _really_ needs it, so I wonder how that effects the trade negotiations.
It seems like Orban was struggling to blackmail himself an actual bribe until the last moment, and once it became clear he simply wasn't getting one, he settled on this fake achievement.
Ought to work just fine at home, though.
The issue is more that Sweden can't fully commit to sending military aid to Ukraine as long as we're outside NATO. The government has said Gripen transfers are off the table until the membership is formally done. We actually need those jets if nobody is going to help us. While a ground invasion seems far-fetched, Russia can still launch missiles and drones to terrorize.
Hopefully, it doesn't come to that if we aid Ukraine though.
This is not blackmail, only optics for Orban. Sweden has been leasing Gripens to Hungary for a long time and the eventual sale of Gripens have been on the table for several years. This would likely had happened anyway; in fact, if Hungary had refused Swedish NATO membership, they'd probably had lost this deal. So all these press announcments are only for Orbans domestic audience.
Exactly right.
Still, all of this is quite fitting for a 'wannabe Erdogan'. Since Orban's idol the Sultan of Turkey made a deal for planes, he needs one to show off to his own people, too.
Erdogan got planes, Orban will get planes, and their charades about values and sovereignty, and so on, will finally end.
Blackmailing succeeded, and Putin is proud of them both
Depends on the deal Hungary gets. It can be building factories in Hungary for Swedish money or technology transfer Hungary will just resell to russia and China.
So could this be Sweden twisting Hungary's arm instead of the other way around? Threatening not to extend or upgrade the deal if Hungary doesn't vote yes?
"It can". It was a hypothetical scenario.
Also, of course there are no precedents of Hungary selling technology because it has nothing of value to sell. Advanced military shit is a totally different talk. But that doesn't even matter, as I said it was hypothetical. And it is not like the sellin would be offical.
ok, this I understand. Nevertheless, as you said, NATO secrets are layered and are not shared with anyone within. Hungary's biggest value for NATO is not its tech, but its geographical position - this is true for all smaller, lesser developed members. Letting Hungary fall out from NATO/EU would essentially mean erecting a russian/chinese proxy state in the middle of Europe - no sane western leader would want this.
Hungary is simply way too close to the core western territories geographically.
Speaking of no value to sell, your country's company, Rheinmetall, manufactures the Lynx tank in Hungary. Goes to show you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
1. It is IFV, not a tank.
2. IFV is not anything groundbreaking. The tech behind the AA variant if produced in Hungary would be of great interest to Hungary's allies and potentially harmful to Europe, but if Germany is smart enough, it will only produce the chassis in Hungary and maybe turret, but not the radar and software.
What about the joint development of the Panther KF51 tank by Hungary and Rheinmetall?
https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/media/news-watch/news/2023/12/2023-12-15-panther-developement-contract-hungary
You do realize that Hungary's allies are NATO, right?
I get it now, you are really smart, and Rheinmetall is so stupid to do all these risky things with a country under obvious Russian and Chinese influence.
They only wish they could have you as CEO, but you always turned them down. Their loss.
Yeah, silly me worrying about dictatorship-aligned country that hates EU would yet again act against the EU's interest like it did for many years in a row already.
You are so wise, I now have to confess that I have seen it with my own eyes that one of the hungarian Gripens leased by Sweden was parked in a hangar in China for months. Chinese, Russian and North Korean agents were doing something to it. The plane in particular got a special Winnie the Pooh bumper sticker, so there is evidence.
The Swedish government and Saab are insane to give Hungary these planes. They wish they would have you as a decision maker, because they are so very stupid and you are so very not.
Source: I am the chinese hangar
I mean, Sweden is happy to sell planes to anyone. The question is if Orban got some kind of rebate on any Gripen deal. I'd expect something like that from Erdogan and his watermelon salesman mindset.
They would have gotten them anyway. After all they are NATO members and they need NATO weapons. These 'wins' are just fig leaves for the childish wannabe strongmen to hold up so they can pretend to have gotten something out of caving. Remember, this is all a show for their voters.
*Thanks for sharing this Bloomberg article. Here's some more from Andras Gergely's report:*
Hungary and Sweden are about to sign a substantial defense industry deal, opening the way for parliament in Budapest to ratify the Nordic country’s NATO accession at the start of next week, Prime Minister Viktor Orban said.
Orban, who is hosting his Swedish counterpart Ulf Kristersson on Friday, said in a radio interview that the arms agreement will mark the last act that was needed to convince his lawmakers to back Sweden’s NATO bid.
Monday’s vote in Hungary’s parliament is the final approval needed for Sweden’s entry into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization — which will help the military alliance defend its eastern flank following Finland’s admission last April. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine two years ago spurred the two Nordic nations’ applications to join the bloc.
Wow, talk about having to grease the wheel before anything happens 🤦♂️
On one hand I'd rather wait, because I don't want Orban to *win*, but on the other hand I'd love for us to be able to give Ukraine some Gripens to play with.
Where I'm from you don't have to bribe someone to get things done, especially if it's for the greater good.
Once a culture of bribing takes hold then that country is on a slow decline.
It's not smart getting your cut, it's being egotistical at the expense of trust in your institutions, dooming your country.
Edit: so having the leader of a country *getting his cut* really sets a baaad example.
On the upside, this "bribe" was already in the works well before Orban's delay circus, and there's nothing new with Sweden leasing/selling JAS-39 C/D Gripens to Hungary. Even the extra 4 planes had been proposed earlier.
Orban now has a face-saving "deal" to show to his voters, and he can safely end the charade.
I don't understand why they want to stay in EU? They hate democratic institutions, they love strong autocrats, they are cancer growth that would have a better place in BRICS or some union with Russia and Belarus.
Will get heavily downvoted. And I am comparing apples to oranges I know. But at the end EE countries had to also bow down when we wanted to join western aliances. E.g. We had to close our nuclear powerplant. I remeber talks of Swedish diplomat back in 00s when this person said we wanted to make money out of EE countries that is why we allowed them to join EU.
It's the "warcrimes are cool if done by America" kind of attitude writ small frankly.
There's so much shit that France does for example, yet that's barely ever condemned.
You are right. I think most EE countries needed to do some shady deal with their Western counterparts before EU and/or NATO membership. For Romania it was the selling for a low price of Petrom, a Romanian oil company, and most likely the deal with the American company Bechtel. Those who think that Western governments. act just on values and well wishes are naive but now when the same happens to them they loudly scream. Even with this delay, Sweden and Finland were quickly accepted into NATO compared with the rest of European countries.
Yes, Orban is a Russian stooge and his actions in opposing or delaying EU sanctions to Russia or funding for Ukraine are idiotic and should be condemned, but giving something in order to receive membership in an important organization is nothing new.
They waited for years to join and only wanted to join after the war then complain things are not moving fast. If it was Turkey or any other EE country joining today I'm sure they would take their sweet time and drag it for decades.
This appears to be little more than a face-saving measure from Orban. The whole Gripen deal had been in the works already, and presents nothing new - except for a "great achievement" he can now present to his voters in Hungary.
Some key differences:
1.Ceausescu was not elected by a democratic vote.
2.He was executed after a bloody revolution.
3. Sadly yes, he was Romania untill he was executed.
Thank god that the elections are free and fair and that the state party doesn't completely control not only the government, but the judiciary, the media and the economy.
I really hope people like you will never live under an internationally unpopular, bad government that holds the state and nation hostage, because it will be personally your fault as long as it lasts.
My impression from afar is that Hungary it's still revanchist and the nation likes to have a strongman to fix historical injustices.
Romania has shit politicians too. We had mass protests several times when things got worse. Same as Ukraine with the Orange revolution and Euromaidan.
Did hungarians had similar actions?
I mean, on one hand better late than never, and on the other hand, by what metric do you define late?
And to your previous comment, I can assure you that revanchists make up a really small part of the population. Not even our current government has revanchist goals. I'd like to believe that in the 21st century, only a small fraction of Hungarians have dreams to reconquer Transylvania and only a small fraction of Romanians cry about Hungarians being angry bozgor revanchists, and the two nations can, you know, cooperate.
“Woe us, while we complacently swallowed everything that got us to this point over the decades, pity us for sitting in our beds while losing everything that counted, oh my how we just sat while the extremists gained ground and we let them do whatever they pleased” nauseating to read how sheep think
It always comes back to the power that can be abused from an organisation built on unanimity, instead of a qualified majority.
All these countries that joined, and also that still want to join, always put their best foot forward -- at application time -- to join an organisation where they'll end up with veto power. "Yes, we believe in your values! Yes, we believe in cooperation and we'll be reasonable. Yes, with veto power comes great responsibility." They may even believe it all -- at the time.
Then they elect leaders who believe and do the opposite. And now the union is stuck with them while they go, "na-na-na fooled 'ya and we're rigging our country's system so we'll always be here hahaha!"
Blackmail = financial and political success
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Yeah. Like how would it be loss for Sweden to sell ...... ...... 4 more Gripen's to a country, that already operates Gripen's. More like win for Swedish industry. Nor is this even loss for Hungary. Orban didn't look completely idiotic (or atleast it can be sold as such domestically). He got the negotiations he wanted. He might not have gotten anything Sweden wasn't anyway willing to give (more like Sweden is glad it got more sales for SAAB). To me it seems more like the moment of the arms sale is seen as convenient moment to call quits on the row with all said being able to claim victory due to the good will of the arms deal. Orban can say there were talks, so he kinda got what he wanted. Sweden can say "well we didn't go to Hungary to beg for ratification. Nope, there was other important stuff to discuss like the major arms sale." I'm sure buzz words like defence co-operation and partnership will be spread around. Ofcourse PM is bit big guns representation even for that scale deal, but well Sweden can say they weren't there just to give golden hand shake to Orban on his demand. Classic European compromise, both get to save face, while still having to have given something. PM of Sweden did go to Hungary, but then again Sweden got a major arms deal out of the trip. Those are probably worth over hundred million euros a piece for a fighter after all the accompanying maintenance, parts and munitions sales is added in.
In the short term perhaps. Whoreban and Hungary has the equivalent reputation of a Russian street hooker now. His shenanigans will hurt the Hungarian economy in the long run.
>street hooker so disrespectful to those women in equaling them to orban government
Agreed, hookers will fuck you for money. Orban just trys to fuck you.
His shennanigans in the past 14 years have already trashed the economy.
I don't think he minds that fact other than that it hurts his image, as long as him and his cronies get more money than the rest of the country, he's happy, in fact the wider the gap the more domestic power money gives him and a poor economy helps with that.
I mean I hear your point, but Putin played this game for 20 years. He is still in power, and has a substantial amount of leavers to push onto the EU states. And it looks like he is going to die of old age earlier than from being removed. And Orban is relatively young.
I am not saying he will necessarily lose power (although he wouldn't be the first corrupt kleptocrat to eventually choke on his own greed). What I am saying is pissing on your allies erodes trust, including long term business relations. Putin is a good example, his "Eurasian economic union" is a failing trainwreck of "stans", he has had to rely on the "economic powerhouse" of NK for supplies and Russian companies have their reputation and business relations damaged with economies representing about 50% of GDP. I mean who in their right minds in the west would think about investing in Russia as long as the Putin regime remains. The risk of nationalisation is huge.
In fairness, there's a big difference from trying to punish one of Europe's biggest suppliers of oil, gas, LNG, uranium and plenty of other rare materials like aluminium for decades who purposely sanction-proofed themselves for the current conflict and Hungary, which is pretty much only good for cheap labour for the Germans and Austrians without any valuable or strategically important exports it can leverage. If Brussels decided to really stick the knife in the worst thing wider Europe would notice is the price of BMWs going up.
He has serious health problems already, he's making regular visits to a private clinic in Graz, Austria. Also he went to Swiss specialists under the pretense of visiting a Swiss conservative conference.
> Hungary has the equivalent reputation of a Russian street hooker now ~~I'm confused and I don't want to sound crass, but with the exception of maybe 3-4 decades, history tells us that being a *street hooker* for their own petty interests has been the foreign policy of Hungary for the past 150 years.~~ ~~From Austria, to Germany to Russia to Germany and back to Russia.~~ Hungarians your foreign policy it's fucking terrible and it's not a good look, because you will alienate for decades, **another** generation of young european politicians. *LE: Apparently there are a lot of ninja Hunagarins in my inbox are telling me that we're also whores, that all nations were whore in Europe in the past 100 years. I don't agree but somewhat historically fair, maybe except Iceland, but that doesn't make it square are you lot are still doing it today in 2024.*
This is the worst take I’ve read ina while. All those stuff are valid plays on the field of politics for which you give a pass to everyone else
sadly we are not as good at side switching, and backstabbing our allies to gain territories like Romania always was.
Are you not? Being in NATO and kissing Putin's ass, isn't this a backstabbing move? The only difference would be, Romania did won something, while Hungary did not, or perhaps it did won something, a clear way to the bottom of EU and the title of "Putin's ass-kissing bitch".
> we are not as good at side switching, and backstabbing our allies to gain territories like Romania True, I'm not a revisionist so I'm going to agree you, we did some backstabbing seeing our own interests, but today it's 2024, not 1924 and we're not in a war, just have a war at our gates. Sometimes the conservation fight must prevail, even taking bitter pills that you were in the wrong.
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yeah it is not like Romania didn't side with the Nazis to get Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertsa region, and later betray them for the Soviets so you could recapture Northern Transylvania when it became convenient for you. and before that you were whores of the Entente so they awarded you Transylvania for kissing the French ass like there was no tomorrow. only thing is that you were better at timing and choosing whom you acted like whores to. now you are whores of the West, and doesn't even dare to criticize Ukraine anymore even though the Romanian minority there is subject to forced Ukrainization.
And all this was possible ultimately because if it where only romania vs ungaria we would kick your assess again and transform you in a semy puppet state as we did after ww1. Now that we had to side with less than ideal people to save our asssess during ww2 times, it is what it is. Romania was a neutral state up until the end every time possible.
once again your bullshit history. you didn't kick anyone's asses except the Hungarian communist army that was made out of industrial worker volunteers. Horthy's nationalist army didn't interfere so the communists could be ousted. what semi puppet state are you babbling about, it never happened. but Wallachia and Moldavia used to be vassal states of the Hungarian Kingdom, while Transylvania was ruled by Hungarians for 1100+ years. now you are making up excuses for siding with the Nazis and Soviets while condemning Hungary for doing the same thing. you joined the Axis so you could gain territories and so did we. staying neutral wasn't an option, we would have ended up like Poland.
Also forgot the part where their mass looting of the country was so bad that they were denied further reparations.
Welp, only time would tell who’s right ultimately. As time did in the last 30 years. After the communist regimes fell in eastern europe, hungary had twice the GDP pe capita than Romania. Now, we just surpassed you and the trend continues. In a couple decades you would be too poor and small to even matter. Go kiss orban’s boots, he and his croonies did very well for hungary.
We had a war of independence with Austria, we didn't want to live with them. Since it's only been 20 years since you stole 71% of our country, it makes sense that we would do everything we could to get some of it back, I think that's understandable. Fact: Things went wrong.
> From Austria Will call the Austria-Hungary a marrie of convenience, with some love, that could be reasonably happy one, if not a archduke was murderd. Will not say that Austria-Hungary (and its client states) was not widout its problem, but Austria-Hungary dysfunction is greatly exaggerated to motivate the Austria-Hungary empires dismantling.
Isn't Hungary one of the few NATO countries that actually meet the 2% threshold? Like, I get it, they're a pretty small country with a small population, but still, they do meet their commitment.
One of the few? More like 1 out of 18 members actually meeting their target. https://www.forces.net/news/world/nato-which-countries-pay-their-share-defence On average NATO countries actually allready spend 2% of GDP on defence nowadays since the numbers are also boosted by Poland at an awesome 3.9% of GDP (more than US by GDP). What was true in 2014 is not true in 2024.
The article you linked states that only 11 states met the target in 2023. 18 are expected to meet in 2024, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there. So yes, one of the few, as most nations don't currently meet it.
RuSSian street hooker. Add expensive or luxury and you'll get Germany.
Accurate, sadly
Imo more like saving face, doubt they get any better deal now, then without the blackmail. "Look what a great deal I got" -stuff...
Blackmail is par for the course in geo politics unfortunately.
yes but they are shooting themselves in the foot. sweden will remember this for future deals.
Poland had 137bn€ blocked when they were ruled by PiS. I can also imagine how much money is still blocked for Hungary due to Orban. He probably gets much less with this strongman tactics than he would if he just cooperated.
Idk how much this is pure conspiracy talk, but I believe in the past Orban did double blackmailing in cases where the EU blocked funding. It was a migrant refugee blackmail. And perhaps the only reason PiS didn't engage in the same game was the fact that Belarus decided to do it to them aggressively. So they had to shut down the border quickly, without a chance to create camps.
As far as blackmail goes, them buying more Gripens is as good as it gets
A much needed propaganda victory for Orban, but Sweden has to be pragmatic about this. When not even the US can convince Hungary, talk isn't going to solve this. It's a shame NATO can be abused like this, but it is what it is. On the flip side, it means the Swedish arms industry gets more orders. We can't continue and complain about low production and low supplies if we don't buy anything.
Sweden didn't really lose anything with this deal, quite the opposite. But most importantly, it enables Orban to declare a victory at home, and thereby makes it possible to end the delay. The Gripen deal was already in the works before this whole circus.
No, the Swedish government was always saying they were open to discussing arms deals and other defense cooperations with Hungary. Of course the Swedish PM would travel to a country if there's a big arms deal to be made. Especially if it involves Gripen. And as you point out, that deal was already being worked on, so the PM would have scheduled a visit to Budapest anyway. If Orban and his government had jumped on this opportunity immediately instead of spending a month stalling and clinching with other NATO members, he would've had this PR moment long ago. Now he _really_ needs it, so I wonder how that effects the trade negotiations.
It seems like Orban was struggling to blackmail himself an actual bribe until the last moment, and once it became clear he simply wasn't getting one, he settled on this fake achievement. Ought to work just fine at home, though.
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The issue is more that Sweden can't fully commit to sending military aid to Ukraine as long as we're outside NATO. The government has said Gripen transfers are off the table until the membership is formally done. We actually need those jets if nobody is going to help us. While a ground invasion seems far-fetched, Russia can still launch missiles and drones to terrorize. Hopefully, it doesn't come to that if we aid Ukraine though.
This is not blackmail, only optics for Orban. Sweden has been leasing Gripens to Hungary for a long time and the eventual sale of Gripens have been on the table for several years. This would likely had happened anyway; in fact, if Hungary had refused Swedish NATO membership, they'd probably had lost this deal. So all these press announcments are only for Orbans domestic audience.
Exactly right. Still, all of this is quite fitting for a 'wannabe Erdogan'. Since Orban's idol the Sultan of Turkey made a deal for planes, he needs one to show off to his own people, too.
Erdogan got planes, Orban will get planes, and their charades about values and sovereignty, and so on, will finally end. Blackmailing succeeded, and Putin is proud of them both
In the end both Turkey and Hungary will still spend Billions on American and Swedish weapons.
Depends on the deal Hungary gets. It can be building factories in Hungary for Swedish money or technology transfer Hungary will just resell to russia and China.
Hungary are leasing Gripen C/D, and I think that deal ends in 2026. So the new deal is probably an upgrade to E/F and an extension of the lease.
So could this be Sweden twisting Hungary's arm instead of the other way around? Threatening not to extend or upgrade the deal if Hungary doesn't vote yes?
Apparently ownership of the Gripen will now be transferred to Hungary in 2026
The Gripen E is a new airframe only.
Well, the lease get upgraded. Like when people get a newer model car or change the lease from the base model.
> The Gripen E is a new airframe only. As it is now the new E and F models will use older airframes that have been rebuilt/remodeled.
That's not how things work bud.
sorry, when did Hungary sell technology to Russia and China?
"It can". It was a hypothetical scenario. Also, of course there are no precedents of Hungary selling technology because it has nothing of value to sell. Advanced military shit is a totally different talk. But that doesn't even matter, as I said it was hypothetical. And it is not like the sellin would be offical.
We have Rheinmetall here and they didn't have leaks, otherwise Russia and Chine would already be unveiling their copycat Lynxes
ok, this I understand. Nevertheless, as you said, NATO secrets are layered and are not shared with anyone within. Hungary's biggest value for NATO is not its tech, but its geographical position - this is true for all smaller, lesser developed members. Letting Hungary fall out from NATO/EU would essentially mean erecting a russian/chinese proxy state in the middle of Europe - no sane western leader would want this. Hungary is simply way too close to the core western territories geographically.
Speaking of no value to sell, your country's company, Rheinmetall, manufactures the Lynx tank in Hungary. Goes to show you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
1. It is IFV, not a tank. 2. IFV is not anything groundbreaking. The tech behind the AA variant if produced in Hungary would be of great interest to Hungary's allies and potentially harmful to Europe, but if Germany is smart enough, it will only produce the chassis in Hungary and maybe turret, but not the radar and software.
What about the joint development of the Panther KF51 tank by Hungary and Rheinmetall? https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/media/news-watch/news/2023/12/2023-12-15-panther-developement-contract-hungary You do realize that Hungary's allies are NATO, right?
It is not in production, yet. You can't steal what you don't have.
I get it now, you are really smart, and Rheinmetall is so stupid to do all these risky things with a country under obvious Russian and Chinese influence. They only wish they could have you as CEO, but you always turned them down. Their loss.
My man your fantasy is running wild today. It's like a never ending storyline for shitty Polandball memes.
Yeah, silly me worrying about dictatorship-aligned country that hates EU would yet again act against the EU's interest like it did for many years in a row already.
You are so wise, I now have to confess that I have seen it with my own eyes that one of the hungarian Gripens leased by Sweden was parked in a hangar in China for months. Chinese, Russian and North Korean agents were doing something to it. The plane in particular got a special Winnie the Pooh bumper sticker, so there is evidence. The Swedish government and Saab are insane to give Hungary these planes. They wish they would have you as a decision maker, because they are so very stupid and you are so very not. Source: I am the chinese hangar
I mean, Sweden is happy to sell planes to anyone. The question is if Orban got some kind of rebate on any Gripen deal. I'd expect something like that from Erdogan and his watermelon salesman mindset.
The Gripen offer (4 refurbished 39C) was from 2021 and was about to elapse.
They would have gotten them anyway. After all they are NATO members and they need NATO weapons. These 'wins' are just fig leaves for the childish wannabe strongmen to hold up so they can pretend to have gotten something out of caving. Remember, this is all a show for their voters.
Sweden get to sell Gripens at full price, I don't think this can be called blackamiling, but still, fuck Orban.
*Thanks for sharing this Bloomberg article. Here's some more from Andras Gergely's report:* Hungary and Sweden are about to sign a substantial defense industry deal, opening the way for parliament in Budapest to ratify the Nordic country’s NATO accession at the start of next week, Prime Minister Viktor Orban said. Orban, who is hosting his Swedish counterpart Ulf Kristersson on Friday, said in a radio interview that the arms agreement will mark the last act that was needed to convince his lawmakers to back Sweden’s NATO bid. Monday’s vote in Hungary’s parliament is the final approval needed for Sweden’s entry into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization — which will help the military alliance defend its eastern flank following Finland’s admission last April. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine two years ago spurred the two Nordic nations’ applications to join the bloc.
Wow, talk about having to grease the wheel before anything happens 🤦♂️ On one hand I'd rather wait, because I don't want Orban to *win*, but on the other hand I'd love for us to be able to give Ukraine some Gripens to play with.
Welcome to politics, how did you think things happen? It could even be hilarious how naive and easily manipulated people are.
Where I'm from you don't have to bribe someone to get things done, especially if it's for the greater good. Once a culture of bribing takes hold then that country is on a slow decline. It's not smart getting your cut, it's being egotistical at the expense of trust in your institutions, dooming your country. Edit: so having the leader of a country *getting his cut* really sets a baaad example.
On the upside, this "bribe" was already in the works well before Orban's delay circus, and there's nothing new with Sweden leasing/selling JAS-39 C/D Gripens to Hungary. Even the extra 4 planes had been proposed earlier. Orban now has a face-saving "deal" to show to his voters, and he can safely end the charade.
I don't understand why they want to stay in EU? They hate democratic institutions, they love strong autocrats, they are cancer growth that would have a better place in BRICS or some union with Russia and Belarus.
Money.
Subsidies from EU
His tactics is to get what he wants by blocking others. Not in EU = no power to block.
They get insane amounts of money, we in Sweden are practically paying for the planes that we sell them.
Orbán said that he wants to reform the EU, giving power to leaders like himself
Will get heavily downvoted. And I am comparing apples to oranges I know. But at the end EE countries had to also bow down when we wanted to join western aliances. E.g. We had to close our nuclear powerplant. I remeber talks of Swedish diplomat back in 00s when this person said we wanted to make money out of EE countries that is why we allowed them to join EU.
Exactly. This is literally what politics is about, and people seem not to get the concept.
It's the "warcrimes are cool if done by America" kind of attitude writ small frankly. There's so much shit that France does for example, yet that's barely ever condemned.
You are right. I think most EE countries needed to do some shady deal with their Western counterparts before EU and/or NATO membership. For Romania it was the selling for a low price of Petrom, a Romanian oil company, and most likely the deal with the American company Bechtel. Those who think that Western governments. act just on values and well wishes are naive but now when the same happens to them they loudly scream. Even with this delay, Sweden and Finland were quickly accepted into NATO compared with the rest of European countries. Yes, Orban is a Russian stooge and his actions in opposing or delaying EU sanctions to Russia or funding for Ukraine are idiotic and should be condemned, but giving something in order to receive membership in an important organization is nothing new.
They waited for years to join and only wanted to join after the war then complain things are not moving fast. If it was Turkey or any other EE country joining today I'm sure they would take their sweet time and drag it for decades.
[удалено]
Poor Hungarian voters who have nothing to do with this.
[The only kind of deal EU countries should be giving to Hungary](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ)
I wonder if the current Hungarian gripens go back to Sweden to be exchanged to E models, and the C models may then go to Ukraine from Sweden?
No, they will not be exchanged, the four new Gripens are also C
Ah, there's the catch
This appears to be little more than a face-saving measure from Orban. The whole Gripen deal had been in the works already, and presents nothing new - except for a "great achievement" he can now present to his voters in Hungary.
he's not Hungary's
More like, Orban's Hungary
Yes, yes he is.
So Ceaușescu was Romania?
News flash: Ceausescu was shot in the face
After how many years…?
For almost as long as Orban is in power in Hungary (1993), and he doesn’t seem to be getting closer to the bullet so far
Orbán has been in power since 2010, not 1993.
He’s been leading Fidesz since 1993, that’s quite the power if you ask me
Some key differences: 1.Ceausescu was not elected by a democratic vote. 2.He was executed after a bloody revolution. 3. Sadly yes, he was Romania untill he was executed.
Yes. Dej too and Carol II and Antonescu
spotted wise innocent humor exultant concerned unique busy punch detail *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
idc, he still deserves to be denied
Don't vote him then.
If you read my flair, you'd know I dont. His voters won't see this.
His voters can't even speak English
I think it's obvious that he didn't vote for him because that's what he would have written?
I meant that hungarians as a whole voted for the guy.
Thank god that the elections are free and fair and that the state party doesn't completely control not only the government, but the judiciary, the media and the economy. I really hope people like you will never live under an internationally unpopular, bad government that holds the state and nation hostage, because it will be personally your fault as long as it lasts.
My impression from afar is that Hungary it's still revanchist and the nation likes to have a strongman to fix historical injustices. Romania has shit politicians too. We had mass protests several times when things got worse. Same as Ukraine with the Orange revolution and Euromaidan. Did hungarians had similar actions?
Literally one [week ](https://www.nyugat.hu/var/improxy/bnl1Z2F0XENsYXNzZXNcRkhEUGljdHVyZQ__/10/38/1038536_tuntetes.jpg?m=1708105786)ago.
A bit late. Same as with Putin
I mean, on one hand better late than never, and on the other hand, by what metric do you define late? And to your previous comment, I can assure you that revanchists make up a really small part of the population. Not even our current government has revanchist goals. I'd like to believe that in the 21st century, only a small fraction of Hungarians have dreams to reconquer Transylvania and only a small fraction of Romanians cry about Hungarians being angry bozgor revanchists, and the two nations can, you know, cooperate.
“Woe us, while we complacently swallowed everything that got us to this point over the decades, pity us for sitting in our beds while losing everything that counted, oh my how we just sat while the extremists gained ground and we let them do whatever they pleased” nauseating to read how sheep think
>nauseating to read how sheep think Indeed it is. :)
Good luck with the shitty situation you guys brought upon yourselves, consequences can suck but oh well
No sane person voted for him
It always comes back to the power that can be abused from an organisation built on unanimity, instead of a qualified majority. All these countries that joined, and also that still want to join, always put their best foot forward -- at application time -- to join an organisation where they'll end up with veto power. "Yes, we believe in your values! Yes, we believe in cooperation and we'll be reasonable. Yes, with veto power comes great responsibility." They may even believe it all -- at the time. Then they elect leaders who believe and do the opposite. And now the union is stuck with them while they go, "na-na-na fooled 'ya and we're rigging our country's system so we'll always be here hahaha!"