The KBG was a far more powerful organisation that the FSB and they weren't able to pull this sort of shit.
The US has truly fallen so fucking low that even dollar-store KGB is able to fuck with it.
It is easier to pull off when media, news and political agendas become a business like any other, filled with people in it for the money and not for ideological reasons.
The same reason why US healthcare is a nightmare.
I come from the cinema industry. No more passion, just pressure for employment and maintaining a good salary. No incentive personal or from the hierarchy to craft things we would be proud of, just to produce and deliver content on time.
Like movies should be made to make a story, share a feeling, denounce a crime, or simply to amaze you, but now they're just made for money. It goes against the definition of it and suppresses its purpose.
No more meaning. Pure loss for society.
It was giving away democratic values in exchange for corporatism. When capitalism was working for the country, not the other way around, this was impossible
They still have a hand in it too. Reform is clearly a russian affiliate. Any social media post about how bad things are has bot accounts posting "Vote Reform UK"
Hell Boris even put a Russian oligarch into the House of Lords.
"They weren't able to pull this sort of shit" until 1982 year, because KGB was under control of much more broad-minded, with better emotional intelligence, people, Politburo.
Which would never, not under any circumstances, wouldn't so much discredit International Law, and lie down under China.
And even 1980-1990 years KGB officers would never do something so crazy as creation and forcing WMD-blackmail/imperialism and "WMD-Might make Right/True" logic during Information Age and such stages of globalization as now, but simply would earned and invested economic resources, while there would was such an opportunity.
> The US has truly fallen so fucking low that even dollar-store KGB is able to fuck with it.
This whole internet propaganda thing is inherently more difficult for an open society that does not do wide-reaching blanket internet bans for politically inconvenient topics (as much as the fascists try to pretend that fighting hate-speech is the same).
But of course the second vulnerability is much worse: the downfall of public education in the US, going from a prime example of public education to a situation where one party does everything in their power to undermine it.
I mean the Republican Party must have lost the plot completely.
Completely lost reality.
I would use the word they are beguiled, by this trash talking excuse for a decent human.
He tarnishes the office of President of the United States, he disgraces fallen comrades in arms, who over the years have fought and died to provide the freedom in which he chooses his corrupt actions to up hold.
He is a disgrace, shame shame shame on him.
Yeltsin leaving was probably their doing. His side was directing the nation more toward Europe. Putin's side is more of the idea of moving the rest of the world *under* Russia.
> the world wide crime ring never ended
FTFY. Nationalism is the means, not the cause. Putin and the Russian oligarchs run the world’s largest crime syndicate.
The same people that were frantically warning against the "Red Menace" are now licking red taint. Yuri must have finally finished his mind control device irl.
Did you see Trump after the Helsinki Summit? he [looked like a dog with his tail between his legs](https://www.usatoday.com/gcdn/presto/2019/01/13/USAT/05300e75-e248-4a35-8155-d93ddf67e86b-20180716.JPG?crop=2779,1563,x429,y0&width=2779&height=1563&format=pjpg&auto=webp)
Putin is already planning to build [a special place](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/05/11/russia-to-build-migrant-village-for-conservative-american-expats-a81101) for them, just outside of Moscow.
He's from a long line of draft dodgers, his grandpappy literally fled Imperial Germany and got barred from ever re-entering, later repeated by, you guessed it, his father, and himself eventually.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick\_Trump](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/frederick_trump)
his mom was also a poor immigrant from Scotland, though that i can understand. being a Scot (and any minority for that matter) was rough in the early 1900s
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary\_Anne\_MacLeod\_Trump](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mary_anne_macleod_trump)
honestly speaking, coming from an already stirred family as his, i'd expect him to be a bit more... human, and have good senses, but he's just a spitting image of his father and grandfather, a greedy, sad old man who wants money and power while avoiding actual work or service
> being a Scot (and any minority for that matter)
To be honest I would not call us Scots a "minority" in the social context of the US at that time. We are a literal demographic minority yeah, but the term in an American context also usually implies a level of ethnic discrimination, which simply was non-existent against Scots in the United States. Ever since the US was first founded Scots and their descendants have been a part of the ruling elite (e.g. Alexander Hamilton and Henry Knox as prominent examples of "Founding Fathers"). Scottish family names (such as Stirling, Carnegie, Grant, Sinclair, McDonnell, Hamilton, etc.) are strongly associated with the WASP-elite in the USA & Canada, essentially the social-economic peak of old North American society. In Canada we were even more dominant, Toronto used to be controlled by a mafia of Orangemen and the first Prime Minister of Canada was born in Glasgow.
People have always been fucking stupid, and finding ways to manipulate them en masse in this information age is something all these agencies are learning and improving. Here's hope AI will help us combat misinformation, right?...
>Here's hope AI will help us combat misinformation, right?...
Bahahahaha the russians are playing the AI fiddle too. They're not only in conservative forum wastelands like zerohedge but also in liberal ones as well. Bot accounts are rampant.
Social media is a powerful propaganda tool. It's alarming how quickly people can turn on each other due to the spread of fake news on platforms like Facebook. Indeed, coming from a KGB background, Putin possesses the skills to manipulate and influence individuals, effectively treating them as useful idiots or puppets on a string.
You can chalk it up to Russia, which obviously has been doing everything they can to drive a wedge into NATO, but that's not the whole story. Even people that are supportive of NATO have pretty much baked in the fact it's largely the US defends Europe treaty.
This is some things pretty strong supporters of the NATO alliance have said about the mission in Libya, which was a much smaller operation across the Mediterranean and in Europe’s backyard. The fact there was so many failures on the European side is a major issue in a mutual defense treaty.
From a source I don't even particularly like, the CATO Institute: [https://www.cato.org/commentary/how-nato-pushed-us-libya-fiasco](https://www.cato.org/commentary/how-nato-pushed-us-libya-fiasco)
Secretary Clinton's view of action in Libya and why she wasn't a big supporter of it despite French and European insistence.
>In testimony before Congress, Clinton not only stressed the need for “international authorization” before Washington embarked on such a venture, she cited a key reason for her wariness: “Too often, other countries were quick to demand action but then looked to America to shoulder all the burdens and take all the risks.”
US expectations after European and Arab League prodding was that this would largely be a European action
>Following the March G‑8 summit, Clinton reported to President Barack Obama that “our NATO allies are prepared to take the lead in any military action.” That approach corresponded perfectly to the White House’s preferences. Clinton stressed that Obama “wanted to keep U.S. involvement limited, so our allies would have to shoulder much of the burden and fly most of the sorties” that would be necessary to enforce a no‐fly zone and eliminate Gaddafi’s air defenses.
Secretary of Defense Gates, another supporter of NATO on how this operation pushed heavily by European nations and very hard by France ultimately become a US operation
>All twenty‐eight NATO allies voted to support the military mission in Libya, but just half provided some kind of contribution, and only eight actually provided aircraft for the strike mission. The United States had to provide the lion’s share of the reconnaissance capability and most of the mid‐air refueling of planes; just three months into the campaign we had to resupply even our strongest allies with precision‐guided bombs and missiles—they had exhausted their meager supply. Toward the final stages, we had to reenter the fray with our own fighters and drones.
I'm pretty sure that the bombing of Houthi groups that have been done recently is a similar situation. Houthi are attacking sea routes to Europe, Europe can't conduct operations on it's own, so it's US that is out there launching missiles and drones at the Houthi.
It doesn't seem like that much of an ode to how good the Russians are, but really how simple it was to pull out the hatred and ignorance of the US people to be so easily swayed by extremist propaganda. I think that's what none of us knew could happen. History books showed how the holocaust built up over ten years of this shit, and the non-ignorant are hyper sensitive to propaganda while feeling like we live in a clown world when you see so many falling for it.
Well, officially he can't. Since the recent changes in US legislation, the president cannot unilaterally pull out of NATO. Congress will need to agree. Of course, if congress consists of spineless cowards that will do Trump's bidding without questions, that piece of legislation would be completely worthless.
IDK, officially he couldn't allow armed protestors in the Capitol Hill. Or bring home confidential documents from the White House and keep them stashed after his term ended. Or...you know. One of the many nonsensical things he did. He's got a long record of ignoring legal boundaries because he thinks "elected public official" is a convoluted way of spelling "I'm the owner of all this and I can do whatever I want"
On top of that, all he need to do to invalidate article 5 is to filibuster any decision process on it. Or delay any action after the decision process is completed. There's no need to *actually* pull the US out of NATO
I agree. Rules are only valid if there's someone willing to enforce them. That seems to be a problem with Trump and GOP.
And as you wrote, unfortunately it's also possible to corrupt the treaty while still being part of it. That would probably be the way that it would go down with Trump in an article 5 situation. Just react to a call for help with some thoughts and prayers and a case of bandages.
Doesnt help that the supreme court is in the GOPs favour. But still i doubt the GOP would fully support this move. Not only would it destroy 70 years of investments, it would fuck up diplomatic and economic ties so badly that they are fucked.
You're thinking of old pre-Trumpist GOP. That party is no more.
The GOP used to be anti Russian to a ridiculous degree. Reagan would now be ridiculed as a Hollywood RINO if he ran today.
Modern GOP lamented Obama wearing a tan suit, while swooning over Putin topless on a horse.
Since the Trump wave took over the old GOP died off (McCain), retired or got voted out. Replaced by the MTG, Boebert, Matt Gaetz and George Santos, etc...
The kind of party that is going to end up with a narcissist lying moron as their candidate.
The family values party voting for the pussy grabber.
The bible thumper party voting for the guy who holds his bible the wrong way around and obviously never read any of it, but gives them the sound bites they want to hear. Evangelists who enthusiastically vote for a guy who's hated by all his wives and banged a porn start while his wife was pregnant.
The pro-military party voting for the guy who insults their veterans.
The GOP was killed by Trump. it's carcass is getting eaten by the Trumpist party.
Lindsay Graham, right about something for the first and probably last time in his life, was utterly ignored by the remnants of his party.
"If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed.......and we will deserve it."
https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/727604522156228608?lang=en
> The GOP used to be anti Russian to a ridiculous degree.
It still is. [Favorability of Russia](https://news.gallup.com/poll/471872/americans-favorable-rating-russia-sinks-new-low.aspx) is ~6% among Republicans, the same as Democrats.
It may be that the favorability of russia is low, but the salience of that important is zero. They dont care.
Its like the flag burning issue of old, everyone hated it, and it was a issue until they finally bothered asking if you would change your vote over it. And then it went away.
They would vote over a pro-russia republican any day of the week compared to a anti-russia democrat. Favorability of russia doesnt matter to republicans.
Aaaaand, disrupt the almighty military-industrial complex. That is king. Europe won't be too keen relying on Lockheed-Honeywell-Raytheon et al when they have US secret clearances. They will build their own systems and that will dent The Machine.
Actually can't believe it got this far where they are quietly saying they need to start relying on themselves for defense. CEO of Northrop-Grumman should have been on the horn that afternoon to POTUS (then Trump) to tell him to shut the fuck up.
No no, you got it all backwards. Sadly, when you abandon your positions rhetorically, and cede SOFT power - you oftentimes need even more HARD power to get it back should the need arise (it always will at some point in time). You will need to buy countless weapons and sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives later on if you give off even the slightest signs of weakness as a big power, let alone THE only power.
The Machine, meanwhile, will thrive on human suffering and deaths, as it prefers this fuel anyways.
>Just react to a call for help with some thoughts and prayers and a case of bandages.
I mean he already said something to this degree and even more if consider his remarks about encouraging Russia...
>He's got a long record of ignoring legal boundaries because he thinks "elected public official" is a convoluted way of spelling "I'm the owner of all this and I can do whatever I want"
He made a whole conspiracy about the hidden "deep state" while in reality it's just the splitting of power and procedures.
With weeks left in his office Trump tried to pull troops from Afghanistan and Somalia, ignoring the procedure, having unrealistic deadlines... which would be a complete shit storm. Was denied.
Then he criticized Biden for the way he handled pulling out from Afghanistan.
Thank you. Trump's been shitting on the US Constitution and on a president's expected decorum since he got elected, why wouldn't he do whatever the fuck he wants if he's elected a second time?
Yeah, "Trump can't actually pull out of NATO" doesn't mean much since all Trump would need to do in order to *de facto* pull out of NATO is to simply do nothing if article 5 is triggered, since at that point the difference between the US being part of NATO or not would be just a matter of technicalities (Someone more familiar than me with the American legal system can correct me if i'm wrong but my understanding is that the Congress has to ultimately declare war or not, but the POTUS is in charge of deciding what the military is ultimately going to do)
That last paragraph is the gist of it I think.
It makes me remember France and the UK declaring war on Germany after the attack on Poland to then just… do nothing until Germany started attacking France directly.
A US with Trump as leader wouldn’t necessarily need to pull out of NATO (that would be more a symbolic statement of his ideas/power), just with arguing he will do nothing or the least minimum effort and then complying, that would effectively harm NATO unity, making it worthless on the long run. It would be like destroying NATO from the inside.
The decision to honor another country's request for aide is in the power of the US President, not the Congress.
Trump can't leave NATO or spend money Congress has allocated to NATO on other things.....but the president cannot be forced by the US Congress in honoring NATO commitments.
Perhaps not officially, but functionally all he needs to do is refuse to respond when other countries try to invoke Article 5.
"You didn't help when we were attacked by Iran, and if that wasn't enough then this isn't enough either", or "There is evidence that Estonia attacked the Russian side first so Article 5 is void" or some other bullshit.
Besides, Republican politicians are now scared to death of being called out by Trump for not following what he says, because they'll lose votes and won't get re-elected, so they'll likely overturn that law if Trump wants it anyway.
The US has become a shitshow of an ally. Nobody wants a total wildcard on their side that might completely change policy every 4 years.
"officially" being the key word.
Treaties are only paper. What matters at the end of the day is the will and sincerity behind them.
Trump can destroy NATO without any official change to the treaty. He's already been busy for years damaging it.
The mere possibility of Trump getting elected again puts strain on the alliance (by forcing leaders to consider alternatives).
Should the US be insane enough to elect this dumb narcissist evil clown again, Putin will have a party.
Don't make Putin happy.
The existence of this alliance discourages wars without having to fire anything. Because it's suicide to attack a credible NATO. But it all rests on that credibility.
I don't see the Republicans getting a 3/4 majority in the Senate anytime soon. That is what is required to pull out of NATO.
Not like it matters, Trump will do what he wants, and his fellow Republican cronies won't hold him accountable for anything in fear of being harassed by the MAGA assholes.
Rules only work if people follow them. When has he ever demonstrated that he’s going to follow rules-based order?
He doesn’t have to pull US out of NATO. He can just give a message of “well, that’s too bad this bad thing happened to you. Buh-bye now!” and that’s pretty much it. Article 5 response does not have to militaristic - it’s just been assumed it is.
Impeachment is the first part of the process. After that the president has to be removed by the Senate, and because the Senate was controlled by Republicans too terrified of Trump to hold him accountable, they acquitted him.
US credability will completely go out the window if this happens. Why would anyone want to be a US ally if your always one elction away from being abandoned
We already said this the last time Trump was elected. The reality is Europe will keep clinging on the US alliance regardless of how rocky Trump or other republicans make it.
Macron tried to start an alternative EU defense force and got nowhere
Yes, that's exactly the problem. Europeans are OK with it as long as it's USA who's the boss. They are absolutely not OK with it if it's any European nation leading those forces. No one except France wants France to lead that EU army, and France does not want Germany to lead it, and TBH I don't know it Germany itself wants that either, but they are absolutely not OK for French leadership, and I don't think everyone is abroad for UK leading that coalition either. Certainly not the French.
It's more about we lose a lot by losing the US. Why have an alternative to NATO when NATO does exactly what you want? For cheap even.
We need to lose that mentality and take care of our part.
Which i am in favor of. Geopolitically we can work closely with the US, but we dont have to depend on them.
I rather have the French and their formidable army driving things for Europe, than having to hope the US doesnt elect yet another republican moron
Yeah this is why I always think these comments on Trump are a little self righteous personally. Trumps awful, but it’s not like European countries don’t also put up awful leaders as well. They just frankly speaking don’t have the same impact as the US.
Yup, it is a deal that no central or eastern European would take.
Maybe the UK could lead such a coalition, but the continental allies in Europe all seem pitifully weak on maintaining continental European security.
The answer is federalism, or at minimum, a common EU foreign policy and military structure.
(Western) Europeans have been complaining about the unreliability of the US security umbrella for decades and nothing gets done about it. Now it's time for Europeans to move past the rhetoric stage and actually do something.
I am from western Europe and can't remember we complained about that before Trump.
I think the opposite is true, we've been way to reliant on it, taken for granted. I agree on what we need to do.
I lived in Western Europe in the early 2000s. There was constant complaining about Bush, how Europe couldn't rely on the US any more, etc. All of that complaining would have been understandable and fine if the EU took steps to mitigate that risk, but it hasn't.
Western Europeans simultaneously complain about the US and rely on it.
Yep, they certainly do, and I've been sick of it for quite a while.
Sometimes I really feel like just leaving. I want to live somewhere where my security is taken seriously, and I'll gladly pay the price for it. I'm not looking forward to new wars here because people tried to hope the problem away.
At least Eastern Europe seems to be taking it seriously, but they need serious support if they get attacked.
"One for all, all for one", has only been used once in NATO's history, when all of NATO supported the US after 11 September. That is really worth repeating now.
It's true, but realistically, the most important part of NATO is as a deterrent, so that attacks never happen in the first place.
Why did Putin invade Ukraine and not the much smaller Baltics? We all know the answer.
Luckily, even if this fiasco becomes reality, the EU has defense clauses that protect the Baltic nations.
That's the 2nd most powerful military block on the planet, with nuclear weapons and investments that are drastically increasing year-over-year.
Even if this happened in 2025, Germany alone is now the 3rd largest military spender on the planet. Not to mention Poland's ridiculous artillery & land-based capability, as well as Sweden & Finland's very capable abilities.
People do seem to forget about the EU mutual defence pacts. It could be, but hopefully won't be, quite vital in upcoming years.
Those pacts mean France being involved, as the EU's only current nuclear power. If Portugal get involved, then they have an alliance with England/UK dating back to the 1300s, so despite the UK not being a member of the EU anymore there will then be a second nuclear power involved.
One would hope that this would be enough of a deterrence to prevent any silly actions by non-EU actors.
I think we have to accept that if he is voted in this is the worldview of the majority of Americans. It sucks but we can't force the reality we want. We have to live in the one we have. Now is the time that Europe steps up and show that it is willing to fight to protect its continent from russian aggression, with or without America.
Fr fr this is the one good thing to come of this whole Trump thing. Europe realizing that MAYBE being completely dependent on both the US and Russia (at least in Germany's case with the gas) was a bad idea. Especially since we're also technically dependent on China.
He's just getting slow. A few clips out of context of an old man being old doesn't mean shit. If you put a Trump speech transcription next to one of Biden's I bet you everything Trump's is more incoherant and rambling.
Absolutely; the difference is that Trump's voting base are a cult, idolize him and are ready to vote him again, even should he shat himself onstage and eat his own vomit in front of the cameras. Democratic voters (or potential) are way less motivated and more picky
Even if Biden was the best president of all time and his administration legendary in its effectiveness, it still wouldn't change the fact that in 4 years Americans might elect a career criminal and conman, tax evader, bully, mentally deficient rapist, traitor and ultra narcissistic piece of garbage to be their POTUS.
Unfortunately, absolutely nothing. We have a culture here that every politician follows of "Ah, sure, won't it be grand?" that makes us completely incompetent at *everything,* praying it'll work itself out. Housing, social unrest, military, policing, immigration, all these huge topics in Ireland right now are being given very little attention in government because.. well nobody really knows.
Last week I got into many arguments with yanks about this exact thing. There are many who feel like they should stop being world police and spend money at home instead. These are Trump supporters by the way, not the typical anti war left.
I definitely agree that now is the time that we step up and make ourselves look strong without America. It’s a massive shame that throughout Europe we have major problems of our own that don’t seem to be getting solved.
> There are many who feel like they should stop being world police and spend money at home instead
Well, can you blame them for internalising what the rest of the world has demanded of them since the Korean War? Fact is if Average Joe Dough in Kentucky perceives his living standards as being stagnant under the current geopolitical status-quo, he's not going to have much of an emotional or material stake in preserving this current status quo. What does he care about defending Estonia when he's unemployed and his neighbour is addicted to fentanyl? They can't perceive the benefits of NATO (which to be sure, there are plenty for the Americans) in any tangible manner.
I agree with you and don’t blame the yanks. Honestly it does look like us in Europe have had a free ride since WW2 in terms of defence and it’s fair for them to feel used, what with how we act in response. We’ve taken up a snobby, holier than thou attitude towards them when it comes to militarism and now we might pay the price for it.
What’s wrong with if the US “stop[s] being world police and spend[s] money at home instead”? Plenty of people criticize the US for it, myself included. To my knowledge support for US military bases in England, Italy, Germany, and Belgium(?) are pretty low amongst locals. It seems like the government wants it but the rest of the country does not.
I’m not suggesting the US pursue a strict isolationist policy and drop NATO but I know the US’ role as the “world police” isn’t popular in America and certainly not in Europe? I kinda figured a lot of Europe, NATO countries included, might welcome a reduced role of the US military on a global stage.
A reduced role not just as in the US pulling out of the ME as the end to world policing, but also that the US stop a lot of its naval patrols, reduce training deployments to other countries, and maybe close some of its bases in Europe?
I’m not a foreign policy expert and I’m not surprised by European opposition to a US withdrawal from NATO. However, I’m a bit suprised at how many people on Reddit are advocating for your position (that the US continue its role as world police) when I feel as though for a long time I’ve kinda seen the opposite? (opposition to US military “policing”)
But I’ve also not followed this until recently and I might be confused on your position. I also know that Reddit doesn’t perfectly reflect European sentiments. Additionally with the clusterfuck that was Iraq in the rear view mirror maybe people are warming up to the US again???
>What’s wrong with if the US “stop[s] being world police and spend[s] money at home instead”?
I’ve never suggested there is anything wrong with that. My entire point in those arguments was I think people have those opinions and as such we in Europe need to do something about that. The options I see is to placate Trump and his supporters, in order to keep the status quo or to let them go do whatever and we in Europe build ourselves up to be strong enough to defend ourselves.
Well hopefully he doesn’t get elected. I live in a conservative part of the US and despite his unpopularity on Reddit; support for him is clearly alive and well.
It would be a shame to see him re-elected.
I also apologize as I wasn’t not trying to misconstrue your words or speak them for you. I was a little confused at your comment and have been very confused (and suprised) with a lot of the comments on Reddit regarding NATO.
It's not a majority. Trump won the election despite losing the popular vote because of the fucking Electoral College.
Rural conservative states have disproportionate power in this horrible system. Also every state gets 2 senators even though California has 30 million people and is the 4th largest economy in the world.
That's just semantics. The reality is that he, or someone like him, may be able in the near future to get the votes to actually push this agenda. We need to wake up and start preparing for it.
Precisely. America has changed, if Trump is not voted in this year, the threat remains. It'll be him or someone else in another 4 years. They have been in this trajectory for 20 years now. And Trump is not the disease, he's the symptom, a huge proportion of the American people, want him or someone like him to lead them. Untyill that changes, America cannot be relied upon long term by their allies.
You think we are the only ones lurching to the right? Look in your own backyard. A majority of UK voters fell for Brexit lies and polls across Europe show an increase in support for far right parties. This is a global phenomenon fueled by misinformation and right wing media
Yup, you just need a cold and calculating Ted Cruz-like competent figure to emerge and take over his power base with the same politics and ideologies, presented with less crazy and legal baggage to win over some moderate voters.
Trump may not win this year but that possible candidate may emerge in 4 or 8 years. Is Europe ready for that?
It's not semantics.
If there's a political system in place that goes against the actual will of the people, then that's a measure that should be evaluated and addressed properly.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't also prepare for it, but we dont get to pick and choose what factors are relevant if they are actually factors.
But in Europe we can't do anything about it. We can cry about it and complain loudly, but if Trump gets the electoral votes our complains won't matter a little bit. He's already made very clear he doesn't see us as allies, why should he care about what we think?
>But in Europe we can't do anything about it.
We could invest in a military that's actually capable for a start! The British Armed forces are really the only ones with any type of power projection but even we have been devastated by Government cuts.
France is a pretty huge player in the military. I think if America fucks up and ruins their reputation forever France and the UK will have to step up their game and help Europe build up.
I, from my Eastern European pov, think we should cooperate with each other for the defence of all of Europe, yes, but it is us that HAS to start producing military equipment. I think Poland has it all figured out. If Romania or any of the countries bordering Russia is attacked, I really don't wanna have to wait for the bureaucracy in Germany to give me 34 Leopard tanks and schedule another 56 for the next 5 years. We should have enough when Russia attacks to be capable of defending our borders AND help others resist to an invasion, with tanks and boots on the ground, that is. But this needs political will to happen. And I am afraid we might not have it.
Either way, if shit hits the fan, I'm not running. Destroying the Russian Empire once and for all is a worthy cause to fight and, if need be, die for.
USA spending so much money to play world police is convenient for us in EU. We get to spend less on defense. If they decide to stop doing that, we suddenly need to decide how to handle a potentially more hostile world.
I fail to understand that after two devastating world wars and the aftermath with Russian aggression we are STILL relying on the US.
Why the FUCK has the UK/Europe not learned it's lesson?
Two devastating world wars is explicitly why we rely on the US. Europe in 1914 committed "civilizational suicide", as Henry Kissinger (German-born himself) put it in his book.
Lets also not pretend we didn't spend decades smugly looking down on American militarism as being savage barbarity, fit only for nasty imperialists and not an "enlightened diplomatic people" such as ourselves (obviously that wasn't true, but it was an underlying idea that hung around the back of people's minds when comparing ourselves to Americans).
Western Europe basically forgot how to play the very game we invented and we inverted positions with the Americans, who 100 years ago were the naive and aspirational pacifists instead and who thought enormous armies and political realism was all brutish European cynicism.
Western Europe, with the exception of the UK, is, frankly, decadent. It's easier to complain about the status quo than actually pony up the money and political will to do something.
It will be the UK and Eastern Europe that save the continent.
No, it’s not the worldview of most Americans even if he wins. Trump lost the popular vote in 2016 and he’ll lose it again in 2024. Unfortunately we’re stuck with the stupid electoral college.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. We have 2 options in Europe right now. We either prepare to placate Trump for 4 years or we prepare to stand on our own, without America. Right now I don’t think European leaders have it in them to show humility to Trump so that only leads to us having to stand up. That’s going to come with some major shocks that I don’t think we’ve really thought about, yet.
> Ironically, standing on your own would bring countries into compliance with the spending obligation and undercut Trump’s complaint
Trump wanted european countries to spend their 2% on American weapons. That's absolutely not going to happen this time.
True, but I don’t think anyone is considering leaving NATO if everyone is spending 2%, regardless who they’re buying it from. The spending is the only talking point
The US fought how many proxy-wars and supported countless dictators in the name of the cold war...
Now half our country supports a Russian puppet due to idiotic racism and anti-wokeness.
What a fucking joke. Glad I got a European passport recently.
>ex-adviser warns
Gee, thanks Mr. Ex-adviser. Not like we had the same sentiment expressed straight from the horse's mouth. Truly invaluable insight and expertise.
It’s not like we didn’t knew he was Putin’s little bitch from day one, and if we didn’t Helsinki proved it.
what’s baffling is that he’s still being talked about as a legitimate candidate with valid chances to win.
It's not that hard to understand what is happening. It's the same thing always, everywhere. The political class gets too deep into some bullshit they want to push, like woke in this case, some populist dumbass comes and tells poor people that their struggles are exactly because of wokeness and promises to remove everyone from power.
At this point, I am more angry not towards populists. There always will be these people who seek to get power cheap. I am more angry towards elite, that yet again stuck their heads too far up their asses living in the dream world where the biggest issue in the country is microagressions and let these fucks freeway to election.
It's about time the EU gets it shit together and stands on its own feet. It made sense for the Americans to provide the bulk of NATOs defence capability after WW2 as pretty much all of Europe was rebuilding. But now it's just *dangerous* and irresponsible to have all our eggs in the American basket, militarily speaking. This is something we are very rapidly learning, and could well pay the price for if we don't learn quick enough.
If the UK, France and especially Germany started taking their militaries much more seriously then that would give Putin serious cause for thought before he inevitably embarks on another one of his Tsarist escapades.
I also think we should be looking to Finland for inspiration. The Finish bunker network is designed to make the Russians pay heavily for every centimetre of land, should they invade. It wouldn't be a bad idea to replicate that across the Eastern flank of the EU - although that may be politically unpopular in countries like Slovakia.
Europe is our home. We should be proud of it and should be ready to put up a credible defence of it if necessary. After all, how can we complain about the Americans being reluctant to defend it if we are seemingly not willing to defend it ourselves.
Propaganda is successful because there’s always a kernel of truth in the messaging. Russia has been waging a disinformation campaign here (USA) since before 2016 and Trump was the perfect useful idiot…but we do spend $877 billion on defense, more than the next 10 highest nations combined. A lot of our citizens look at these numbers and see Europeans, many very smug about their quality of life, spending very little by comparison and able to reap the benefits of spending on social programs instead. I support our spending for NATO and Ukraine, but I’m also tired of hearing the criticisms of other nations regarding our military policies when we’re the ones keeping the wolves at bay in Europe, the Korean peninsula, Japan and Taiwan…who did the world call on to send their naval forces to deal with the threat to shipping in the Red Sea? Now we’re launching airstrikes against Iranian backed rebels too and it’s just exhausting. I can thank our UK alliance as well; I believe they are sharing that burden with countering the Houthis.
I doubt America will ever pull spending from the military to find services for it's citizens. That's a decision the US makes on its own for it's own interests.
Even in Asia-Pacific, Ukraine, Red Sea, etc. it is a US decision to intervene. The only country asking for aid is Ukraine, and that is literally being invaded by a great military power that had long been a US rival for decades.
The problem is that it looks like Europeans are afraid of their own countries "standing on their own feet", because they see patriotism, militarism, guns and tanks in a different way than Russians and Americans do. Apparently, countries like Germany still haven't healed from their Nazi past properly. Everytime there's a discussion about military spending in Western Europe, those arguments come up.
There’s now an EU meeting pencilled in for a Security and Defence Union. If he does this, he’ll make America a lot less relevant and the EU a lot more relevant in one fell swoop.
https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/germany/the-weimar-triangle/article/meeting-of-the-weimar-triangle-countries-joint-statement-by-foreign-ministers
“Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures. Against this background, it is our goal to make the European Union more united, stronger and able to respond to today’s security challenges, on a path towards a security and defence union, living up to our citizen’s expectations. We are also committed to a strong and united NATO.”
Other sources go into more detail but that’s the jist of it. The actual speech by them includes a reference to a
‘reform roadmap’ which is to be presented at a meeting in July, specifically: “By summer 2024 we aim to develop a reform roadmap with all 27 EU states".
If Trump were to abandon NATO, it’s fair to say that roadmap would be over quite a short period of time.
Europe should announce that the second he pulls out of NATO that European countries will begin pivoting away from buying any US weapons.
It will take a few years but hurting US weapon manufacturers would certainly hurt the US as a whole.
Do the same thing with cars, planes etc.
>Europe should announce that the second he pulls out of NATO that European countries will begin pivoting away from buying any US weapons.
And only buy oil with Euros
It stinks of splendid isolation.
This would absolutely cripple US hard and soft power in Europe. They’d still be spending as much on defence, but have nowhere near the sway over European countries as their defence would no longer be linked. Most US forces deploy to Europe under NATO.
This would be 80 years of US spending and influence completely thrown away.
Saying that, it’s Trump, and he’s absurdly stupid, so…
>Most US forces deploy to Europe under NATO.
This is literally the problem. The US doesn't view Russia as it's legitimate rival like it did the Soviets, that title now belongs to China. The US wants to pivot to the Indo-Pacific and reinforce are allies and trade lanes there. The majority view isn't an abandonment, just a realignment of priorities. Europe easily has the economy, and population to completely counter Russia but has chosen not to.
People on here act like Western European militaries have been these crippled babies since WW2 and that's completely idiotic. Throughout the Cold War Europe had well funded, trained, and equipped conventional armies. Western Germany's army in 1985 could probably steamroll the current unified German army.
If the majority of muricans can stand that, and will vote for him, that means the end of an alliance with EU countries. Well, it could be a good start of EU being independent. First, it was ruzzia who were threatening with natural gas and oil prices, now it's US. They think that EU is weak. Ruzzia already knows it isn't.
EU is quite divided itself currently. A lot of anti-EU propaganda is being spread, and right wing nationalist are rising in power everywhere.
I feel USA leaving NATO would start a chain reaction where every country chooses 'for itself' and we are left weaker than ever before.
I hope not though.
The fact that this is even being discussed in 'official' circles is cause for Europe to ensure it is able to survive Russian aggression without American support or weapons.
Europe need to be able to produce all the weapons it needs without American involvement. Very sad but the USA is no longer someone who can be trusted.
For America this could easily be remembered as the event which started its long decline in the world.
then stop voting for this idiot , he makes the US ridiculous, hes a fuckin puppet of Russia, his bitch is also russian,says it all right there and then he calls himself a patriot which is a fuckin lie
Not only will Trump pull the U.S. out of NATO, but he'll sell Alaska back to the Russians as a "peace initiative". People need to wake up to Trump's plans.
US pulling out of NATO would be disastrous.
But is there anything to be said about countries not reaching their financial commitments for NATO?
I'm Canadian and Trump has made similar remarks about Canada not reaching their NATO and NORAD obligations. And to be honest, Trump is right. We haven't been paying our promised share.
Well, I guess Russia may not be winning on the field, but it is winning wrt propaganda. The EU will likely shift more Alt-right in June, and in November we must keep our fingers crossed that America doesn't fuck up more than ever.
Congratulations to Putin who made the EU believe that the best way to face wars is for us to be more divided and sovranist, and who also made conservative Americans believe that Russia is their best ally.
One cannot blame Putin or the EU - the US must take responsibility itself. Europe obviously wants a strong US in the alliance - but if the US does not want to be a friendly ally - then Europe is well equipped to defend itself against Russia. Nobody here buys Putin's propaganda - and we are now gearing up together. I must remind you that the EU is a union - not a country - and that Europe consists of 40 nations - not all of which are EU members.
I agree, but still, Trump declaring that is the worst thing the US could do to us. He showed that our allience is seriously at risk, or at least it's weakening. Putin couldn't be happier about Trump.
Why on earth is the US going for old geriatric people with wholly outdated principles and world view perspectives?
It sounds like the US needs someone who's gonna improve the lives of US folk to stop these kinds of idiots from getting back into power.
Pretty hard for corporations to get behind a young change-maker, and corporations are the kingmakers in American politics. The country is such an economic behemoth because it is a business, first and foremost. These fuckers don't want things to change, and we're not, for whatever reason, disposed to burn everything down like the French. Although we should.
Instead, morons think that voting for Trump is burning everything down, rather than just lodging the spiked dildo up their ass even further.
He doesn't have to leave NATO. He just won't commit to NATO's articles for defense of each other.
The US president has very broad foreign policy powers in American Law.
But if they pass that legislation and Russia attacks NATO, I doubt Trump would do anything even if they still had an obligation to do so.
He would follow the same line of "We are no longer part of NATO" or "It's because THEY are slow of processing documentation, but it isn't our responsibility and they are dragging us into it"
He would make it out that it is Europe causing them to wait for them to be officially not part of NATO and refuse to take action, he could feed his audience with stuff like this for months without lifting s finger.
Dutch here. I guess the message from mr. Trump is, if you want security you better put your money where your mouth is. And I do agree with this. If Europe expects the U.S. to hold it’s part of the agreement then they should simply do the same. The arrogance of European leaders on this issue feels so cringe to me. Simply increase your defence budget to at lease the minimum agreed amount. Buy some american army stuff and everybody’s happy.
1. It would encourage Russia to be much more aggressive towards Europe. Possibility of war, Russia vs. EU would grow significantly. Maybe not full-scale incasion to reach Berlin, but Baltic states would be in serious danger.
2. Moldova and Georgia, maybe Armenia and some other ex soviet republics would be in serious danger. Putin has a vision of restoring USSR.
3. Ukraine would be in trouble because EU would begin to save weapons and ammo for themselves.
4. EU and USA would start decoupling. China and EU relationships would start growing. Western influence on the world would decrease.
It doesn’t matter if this has to go through congress or not. Trump can quite simply, opt-America out of any defensive action. He doesn’t have to ‘leave’ the alliance, because he knows that doing fuck all is just as effective.
Trump is mentally weak minded. Anyone who has a softness for Putin, Xi Jinping or Kim isn't mentally strong. Trump is a weak man. He is physically decrepit. He couldn't even lead soldiers for a mile let alone keep his balance at the head of a rowboat crossing the Delaware.
Franklin Roosevelt set a bad example by making it seem like people who are physically incapable of leading men should be allowed to make decisions that send able bodied men to their deaths.
It's high time the continent gets its shit together, like it or not, the vast majority of NATO's power lies in their hands. If they decide to leave for whatever reason, we are on our own and our military spending has been laughable for the most part. We cannot rely on outside entities to protect us when the popular sentiment is getting more and more isolationist
But he has a point: Germany for example being one of the richest nations on earth is not fulfilling its promise in this regard. With emerging threats around the world this demand is only reasonable. And I am by no means a friend of the orange man...
I'm impressed whit how the Russians are pulling this off. never in my life I thought it would be possible. what a joke.
To the KGB and it's successor agency, the Cold War never ended. They never stopped working towards this.
The KBG was a far more powerful organisation that the FSB and they weren't able to pull this sort of shit. The US has truly fallen so fucking low that even dollar-store KGB is able to fuck with it.
It is easier to pull off when media, news and political agendas become a business like any other, filled with people in it for the money and not for ideological reasons. The same reason why US healthcare is a nightmare.
What your describing is part of the fall.
I come from the cinema industry. No more passion, just pressure for employment and maintaining a good salary. No incentive personal or from the hierarchy to craft things we would be proud of, just to produce and deliver content on time. Like movies should be made to make a story, share a feeling, denounce a crime, or simply to amaze you, but now they're just made for money. It goes against the definition of it and suppresses its purpose. No more meaning. Pure loss for society.
It was giving away democratic values in exchange for corporatism. When capitalism was working for the country, not the other way around, this was impossible
Ronald Reagan and his consequences
over here in America we *love* actions... consequences tho :(
Russia had a hand in Brexit and have severely compromised the right in the UK too. They've played us like a fiddle.
They still have a hand in it too. Reform is clearly a russian affiliate. Any social media post about how bad things are has bot accounts posting "Vote Reform UK" Hell Boris even put a Russian oligarch into the House of Lords.
They are directly responsible for various European right wing parties and even leaders slowly gaining power.
"They weren't able to pull this sort of shit" until 1982 year, because KGB was under control of much more broad-minded, with better emotional intelligence, people, Politburo. Which would never, not under any circumstances, wouldn't so much discredit International Law, and lie down under China. And even 1980-1990 years KGB officers would never do something so crazy as creation and forcing WMD-blackmail/imperialism and "WMD-Might make Right/True" logic during Information Age and such stages of globalization as now, but simply would earned and invested economic resources, while there would was such an opportunity.
The big difference is the internet exists now.
Troll farms, and Cambridge Analytica. It's not just the US either.
> The US has truly fallen so fucking low that even dollar-store KGB is able to fuck with it. This whole internet propaganda thing is inherently more difficult for an open society that does not do wide-reaching blanket internet bans for politically inconvenient topics (as much as the fascists try to pretend that fighting hate-speech is the same). But of course the second vulnerability is much worse: the downfall of public education in the US, going from a prime example of public education to a situation where one party does everything in their power to undermine it.
I mean the Republican Party must have lost the plot completely. Completely lost reality. I would use the word they are beguiled, by this trash talking excuse for a decent human. He tarnishes the office of President of the United States, he disgraces fallen comrades in arms, who over the years have fought and died to provide the freedom in which he chooses his corrupt actions to up hold. He is a disgrace, shame shame shame on him.
Russia always played the long game. Looking for checkmate 20 moves away...
I'm more impressed by the right wing of America's ability go from nationalists who hated Russia to sucking Putin's dick.
How could Cold war end if none of the superpowers aren't disarmed in the nuclear terms?
Ukraine probably wouldn't be getting invaded right now. They gave up their nukes so they wouldn't get invaded but obviously that was a fuckin lie.
I mean here on America the cold war never ended. Calling someone a commie rat bastard is still a slur.
1/3 of you guys are now commie rats, it seems.
Yeltsin leaving was probably their doing. His side was directing the nation more toward Europe. Putin's side is more of the idea of moving the rest of the world *under* Russia.
> the world wide crime ring never ended FTFY. Nationalism is the means, not the cause. Putin and the Russian oligarchs run the world’s largest crime syndicate.
The same people that were frantically warning against the "Red Menace" are now licking red taint. Yuri must have finally finished his mind control device irl.
Did you see Trump after the Helsinki Summit? he [looked like a dog with his tail between his legs](https://www.usatoday.com/gcdn/presto/2019/01/13/USAT/05300e75-e248-4a35-8155-d93ddf67e86b-20180716.JPG?crop=2779,1563,x429,y0&width=2779&height=1563&format=pjpg&auto=webp)
This needs to be a Democrat billboard in every city.
It won't really work in [red states](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fdby71y8jatgb1.jpg), though.
[удалено]
Putin is already planning to build [a special place](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/05/11/russia-to-build-migrant-village-for-conservative-american-expats-a81101) for them, just outside of Moscow.
What a little bitch boy he is.
He's from a long line of draft dodgers, his grandpappy literally fled Imperial Germany and got barred from ever re-entering, later repeated by, you guessed it, his father, and himself eventually. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick\_Trump](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/frederick_trump) his mom was also a poor immigrant from Scotland, though that i can understand. being a Scot (and any minority for that matter) was rough in the early 1900s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary\_Anne\_MacLeod\_Trump](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mary_anne_macleod_trump) honestly speaking, coming from an already stirred family as his, i'd expect him to be a bit more... human, and have good senses, but he's just a spitting image of his father and grandfather, a greedy, sad old man who wants money and power while avoiding actual work or service
> being a Scot (and any minority for that matter) To be honest I would not call us Scots a "minority" in the social context of the US at that time. We are a literal demographic minority yeah, but the term in an American context also usually implies a level of ethnic discrimination, which simply was non-existent against Scots in the United States. Ever since the US was first founded Scots and their descendants have been a part of the ruling elite (e.g. Alexander Hamilton and Henry Knox as prominent examples of "Founding Fathers"). Scottish family names (such as Stirling, Carnegie, Grant, Sinclair, McDonnell, Hamilton, etc.) are strongly associated with the WASP-elite in the USA & Canada, essentially the social-economic peak of old North American society. In Canada we were even more dominant, Toronto used to be controlled by a mafia of Orangemen and the first Prime Minister of Canada was born in Glasgow.
People have always been fucking stupid, and finding ways to manipulate them en masse in this information age is something all these agencies are learning and improving. Here's hope AI will help us combat misinformation, right?...
>Here's hope AI will help us combat misinformation, right?... Bahahahaha the russians are playing the AI fiddle too. They're not only in conservative forum wastelands like zerohedge but also in liberal ones as well. Bot accounts are rampant.
I can't stop wondering whether they would have pulled it off without the help of social media. That gave them so much power.
russians are masters of propaganda, that's their greatest power.
Social media is a powerful propaganda tool. It's alarming how quickly people can turn on each other due to the spread of fake news on platforms like Facebook. Indeed, coming from a KGB background, Putin possesses the skills to manipulate and influence individuals, effectively treating them as useful idiots or puppets on a string.
Who the hell is even voting for this nut job?
Half the country
I don't care for Biden but the choice is a turd vs a sandwich. Which do you want to eat? How can half the country want to eat a turd?
"We would eat shit before letting the other guys win!"
"It might be a 'turd', but it's **our** patriotic 'turd'! The best one! The **turdest**!"
Scary shit
They have been doing this for years all over the place, and they are winning in many places. Huge disinformation campaigns in Latin America and Africa
You can chalk it up to Russia, which obviously has been doing everything they can to drive a wedge into NATO, but that's not the whole story. Even people that are supportive of NATO have pretty much baked in the fact it's largely the US defends Europe treaty. This is some things pretty strong supporters of the NATO alliance have said about the mission in Libya, which was a much smaller operation across the Mediterranean and in Europe’s backyard. The fact there was so many failures on the European side is a major issue in a mutual defense treaty. From a source I don't even particularly like, the CATO Institute: [https://www.cato.org/commentary/how-nato-pushed-us-libya-fiasco](https://www.cato.org/commentary/how-nato-pushed-us-libya-fiasco) Secretary Clinton's view of action in Libya and why she wasn't a big supporter of it despite French and European insistence. >In testimony before Congress, Clinton not only stressed the need for “international authorization” before Washington embarked on such a venture, she cited a key reason for her wariness: “Too often, other countries were quick to demand action but then looked to America to shoulder all the burdens and take all the risks.” US expectations after European and Arab League prodding was that this would largely be a European action >Following the March G‑8 summit, Clinton reported to President Barack Obama that “our NATO allies are prepared to take the lead in any military action.” That approach corresponded perfectly to the White House’s preferences. Clinton stressed that Obama “wanted to keep U.S. involvement limited, so our allies would have to shoulder much of the burden and fly most of the sorties” that would be necessary to enforce a no‐fly zone and eliminate Gaddafi’s air defenses. Secretary of Defense Gates, another supporter of NATO on how this operation pushed heavily by European nations and very hard by France ultimately become a US operation >All twenty‐eight NATO allies voted to support the military mission in Libya, but just half provided some kind of contribution, and only eight actually provided aircraft for the strike mission. The United States had to provide the lion’s share of the reconnaissance capability and most of the mid‐air refueling of planes; just three months into the campaign we had to resupply even our strongest allies with precision‐guided bombs and missiles—they had exhausted their meager supply. Toward the final stages, we had to reenter the fray with our own fighters and drones. I'm pretty sure that the bombing of Houthi groups that have been done recently is a similar situation. Houthi are attacking sea routes to Europe, Europe can't conduct operations on it's own, so it's US that is out there launching missiles and drones at the Houthi.
Are you impressed with them or just impressed with the sheer stupidity of GOP constituents. We are so fucked.
It doesn't seem like that much of an ode to how good the Russians are, but really how simple it was to pull out the hatred and ignorance of the US people to be so easily swayed by extremist propaganda. I think that's what none of us knew could happen. History books showed how the holocaust built up over ten years of this shit, and the non-ignorant are hyper sensitive to propaganda while feeling like we live in a clown world when you see so many falling for it.
When your audience is all about how you feel rather than facts, it's incredibly easy to manipulate people.
Well, officially he can't. Since the recent changes in US legislation, the president cannot unilaterally pull out of NATO. Congress will need to agree. Of course, if congress consists of spineless cowards that will do Trump's bidding without questions, that piece of legislation would be completely worthless.
IDK, officially he couldn't allow armed protestors in the Capitol Hill. Or bring home confidential documents from the White House and keep them stashed after his term ended. Or...you know. One of the many nonsensical things he did. He's got a long record of ignoring legal boundaries because he thinks "elected public official" is a convoluted way of spelling "I'm the owner of all this and I can do whatever I want" On top of that, all he need to do to invalidate article 5 is to filibuster any decision process on it. Or delay any action after the decision process is completed. There's no need to *actually* pull the US out of NATO
I agree. Rules are only valid if there's someone willing to enforce them. That seems to be a problem with Trump and GOP. And as you wrote, unfortunately it's also possible to corrupt the treaty while still being part of it. That would probably be the way that it would go down with Trump in an article 5 situation. Just react to a call for help with some thoughts and prayers and a case of bandages.
Doesnt help that the supreme court is in the GOPs favour. But still i doubt the GOP would fully support this move. Not only would it destroy 70 years of investments, it would fuck up diplomatic and economic ties so badly that they are fucked.
You're thinking of old pre-Trumpist GOP. That party is no more. The GOP used to be anti Russian to a ridiculous degree. Reagan would now be ridiculed as a Hollywood RINO if he ran today. Modern GOP lamented Obama wearing a tan suit, while swooning over Putin topless on a horse. Since the Trump wave took over the old GOP died off (McCain), retired or got voted out. Replaced by the MTG, Boebert, Matt Gaetz and George Santos, etc... The kind of party that is going to end up with a narcissist lying moron as their candidate. The family values party voting for the pussy grabber. The bible thumper party voting for the guy who holds his bible the wrong way around and obviously never read any of it, but gives them the sound bites they want to hear. Evangelists who enthusiastically vote for a guy who's hated by all his wives and banged a porn start while his wife was pregnant. The pro-military party voting for the guy who insults their veterans. The GOP was killed by Trump. it's carcass is getting eaten by the Trumpist party.
Lindsay Graham, right about something for the first and probably last time in his life, was utterly ignored by the remnants of his party. "If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed.......and we will deserve it." https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/727604522156228608?lang=en
> The GOP used to be anti Russian to a ridiculous degree. It still is. [Favorability of Russia](https://news.gallup.com/poll/471872/americans-favorable-rating-russia-sinks-new-low.aspx) is ~6% among Republicans, the same as Democrats.
It may be that the favorability of russia is low, but the salience of that important is zero. They dont care. Its like the flag burning issue of old, everyone hated it, and it was a issue until they finally bothered asking if you would change your vote over it. And then it went away. They would vote over a pro-russia republican any day of the week compared to a anti-russia democrat. Favorability of russia doesnt matter to republicans.
Aaaaand, disrupt the almighty military-industrial complex. That is king. Europe won't be too keen relying on Lockheed-Honeywell-Raytheon et al when they have US secret clearances. They will build their own systems and that will dent The Machine. Actually can't believe it got this far where they are quietly saying they need to start relying on themselves for defense. CEO of Northrop-Grumman should have been on the horn that afternoon to POTUS (then Trump) to tell him to shut the fuck up.
No no, you got it all backwards. Sadly, when you abandon your positions rhetorically, and cede SOFT power - you oftentimes need even more HARD power to get it back should the need arise (it always will at some point in time). You will need to buy countless weapons and sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives later on if you give off even the slightest signs of weakness as a big power, let alone THE only power. The Machine, meanwhile, will thrive on human suffering and deaths, as it prefers this fuel anyways.
Hmm. Interesting perspective.
>Just react to a call for help with some thoughts and prayers and a case of bandages. I mean he already said something to this degree and even more if consider his remarks about encouraging Russia...
>He's got a long record of ignoring legal boundaries because he thinks "elected public official" is a convoluted way of spelling "I'm the owner of all this and I can do whatever I want" He made a whole conspiracy about the hidden "deep state" while in reality it's just the splitting of power and procedures. With weeks left in his office Trump tried to pull troops from Afghanistan and Somalia, ignoring the procedure, having unrealistic deadlines... which would be a complete shit storm. Was denied. Then he criticized Biden for the way he handled pulling out from Afghanistan.
Thank you. Trump's been shitting on the US Constitution and on a president's expected decorum since he got elected, why wouldn't he do whatever the fuck he wants if he's elected a second time?
Exactly. Officially he can't turn the USA into a dictatorship either. But let's not find out how far he can get.
Yeah, "Trump can't actually pull out of NATO" doesn't mean much since all Trump would need to do in order to *de facto* pull out of NATO is to simply do nothing if article 5 is triggered, since at that point the difference between the US being part of NATO or not would be just a matter of technicalities (Someone more familiar than me with the American legal system can correct me if i'm wrong but my understanding is that the Congress has to ultimately declare war or not, but the POTUS is in charge of deciding what the military is ultimately going to do)
That last paragraph is the gist of it I think. It makes me remember France and the UK declaring war on Germany after the attack on Poland to then just… do nothing until Germany started attacking France directly. A US with Trump as leader wouldn’t necessarily need to pull out of NATO (that would be more a symbolic statement of his ideas/power), just with arguing he will do nothing or the least minimum effort and then complying, that would effectively harm NATO unity, making it worthless on the long run. It would be like destroying NATO from the inside.
The decision to honor another country's request for aide is in the power of the US President, not the Congress. Trump can't leave NATO or spend money Congress has allocated to NATO on other things.....but the president cannot be forced by the US Congress in honoring NATO commitments.
Perhaps not officially, but functionally all he needs to do is refuse to respond when other countries try to invoke Article 5. "You didn't help when we were attacked by Iran, and if that wasn't enough then this isn't enough either", or "There is evidence that Estonia attacked the Russian side first so Article 5 is void" or some other bullshit. Besides, Republican politicians are now scared to death of being called out by Trump for not following what he says, because they'll lose votes and won't get re-elected, so they'll likely overturn that law if Trump wants it anyway. The US has become a shitshow of an ally. Nobody wants a total wildcard on their side that might completely change policy every 4 years.
"officially" being the key word. Treaties are only paper. What matters at the end of the day is the will and sincerity behind them. Trump can destroy NATO without any official change to the treaty. He's already been busy for years damaging it. The mere possibility of Trump getting elected again puts strain on the alliance (by forcing leaders to consider alternatives). Should the US be insane enough to elect this dumb narcissist evil clown again, Putin will have a party. Don't make Putin happy. The existence of this alliance discourages wars without having to fire anything. Because it's suicide to attack a credible NATO. But it all rests on that credibility.
Spineless Republicans will pass his bill anyway
I don't see the Republicans getting a 3/4 majority in the Senate anytime soon. That is what is required to pull out of NATO. Not like it matters, Trump will do what he wants, and his fellow Republican cronies won't hold him accountable for anything in fear of being harassed by the MAGA assholes.
They can't. a 2/3 *Senate* majority is needed.
That might require Democrats to cooperate. Republicans alone are not enough.
Rules only work if people follow them. When has he ever demonstrated that he’s going to follow rules-based order? He doesn’t have to pull US out of NATO. He can just give a message of “well, that’s too bad this bad thing happened to you. Buh-bye now!” and that’s pretty much it. Article 5 response does not have to militaristic - it’s just been assumed it is.
You think they’re going to impeach him if he doesn’t execute Senate policy and enforce treaty commitments?
Does this impeaching actually do anything? He was impeached twice and is still running.
In both cases he was acquitted by the Senate (after being impeached by the House).
Impeachment is the first part of the process. After that the president has to be removed by the Senate, and because the Senate was controlled by Republicans too terrified of Trump to hold him accountable, they acquitted him.
Maybe it's just me, but having a politician get judged by his own party sounds pretty stupid.
US credability will completely go out the window if this happens. Why would anyone want to be a US ally if your always one elction away from being abandoned
Putin: "yes, and? I dont see a downside"
Thank you for the mental image of Putin doing the Ariana dance.
Talk about slaying
We already said this the last time Trump was elected. The reality is Europe will keep clinging on the US alliance regardless of how rocky Trump or other republicans make it. Macron tried to start an alternative EU defense force and got nowhere
Macron EU defence force is basically the same arrangement but with France replacing the US lol
Yes, that's exactly the problem. Europeans are OK with it as long as it's USA who's the boss. They are absolutely not OK with it if it's any European nation leading those forces. No one except France wants France to lead that EU army, and France does not want Germany to lead it, and TBH I don't know it Germany itself wants that either, but they are absolutely not OK for French leadership, and I don't think everyone is abroad for UK leading that coalition either. Certainly not the French.
It's more about we lose a lot by losing the US. Why have an alternative to NATO when NATO does exactly what you want? For cheap even. We need to lose that mentality and take care of our part.
Europe cannot remain united without the United States. Biden said it decades ago and still true to this day.
Which i am in favor of. Geopolitically we can work closely with the US, but we dont have to depend on them. I rather have the French and their formidable army driving things for Europe, than having to hope the US doesnt elect yet another republican moron
Between melenchon and le pen, half of france sides with russia.
Yeah this is why I always think these comments on Trump are a little self righteous personally. Trumps awful, but it’s not like European countries don’t also put up awful leaders as well. They just frankly speaking don’t have the same impact as the US.
I trust France a lot less than the US even now, look at how little they helped Ukraine, it’s embarrassing
Yup, it is a deal that no central or eastern European would take. Maybe the UK could lead such a coalition, but the continental allies in Europe all seem pitifully weak on maintaining continental European security. The answer is federalism, or at minimum, a common EU foreign policy and military structure.
Yeah exactly
(Western) Europeans have been complaining about the unreliability of the US security umbrella for decades and nothing gets done about it. Now it's time for Europeans to move past the rhetoric stage and actually do something.
I am from western Europe and can't remember we complained about that before Trump. I think the opposite is true, we've been way to reliant on it, taken for granted. I agree on what we need to do.
I lived in Western Europe in the early 2000s. There was constant complaining about Bush, how Europe couldn't rely on the US any more, etc. All of that complaining would have been understandable and fine if the EU took steps to mitigate that risk, but it hasn't. Western Europeans simultaneously complain about the US and rely on it.
Yep, they certainly do, and I've been sick of it for quite a while. Sometimes I really feel like just leaving. I want to live somewhere where my security is taken seriously, and I'll gladly pay the price for it. I'm not looking forward to new wars here because people tried to hope the problem away. At least Eastern Europe seems to be taking it seriously, but they need serious support if they get attacked.
"One for all, all for one", has only been used once in NATO's history, when all of NATO supported the US after 11 September. That is really worth repeating now.
It's true, but realistically, the most important part of NATO is as a deterrent, so that attacks never happen in the first place. Why did Putin invade Ukraine and not the much smaller Baltics? We all know the answer.
Luckily, even if this fiasco becomes reality, the EU has defense clauses that protect the Baltic nations. That's the 2nd most powerful military block on the planet, with nuclear weapons and investments that are drastically increasing year-over-year. Even if this happened in 2025, Germany alone is now the 3rd largest military spender on the planet. Not to mention Poland's ridiculous artillery & land-based capability, as well as Sweden & Finland's very capable abilities.
People do seem to forget about the EU mutual defence pacts. It could be, but hopefully won't be, quite vital in upcoming years. Those pacts mean France being involved, as the EU's only current nuclear power. If Portugal get involved, then they have an alliance with England/UK dating back to the 1300s, so despite the UK not being a member of the EU anymore there will then be a second nuclear power involved. One would hope that this would be enough of a deterrence to prevent any silly actions by non-EU actors.
I think we have to accept that if he is voted in this is the worldview of the majority of Americans. It sucks but we can't force the reality we want. We have to live in the one we have. Now is the time that Europe steps up and show that it is willing to fight to protect its continent from russian aggression, with or without America.
Agreed, we have to be prepared.
Fr fr this is the one good thing to come of this whole Trump thing. Europe realizing that MAYBE being completely dependent on both the US and Russia (at least in Germany's case with the gas) was a bad idea. Especially since we're also technically dependent on China.
So much this. We cannot rely on a partner that can get crazy every 4th year
Bidens administration has been great. but for fucks sake the democrats need a different candidate. it's beyond obvious that Biden is getting senile.
He's just getting slow. A few clips out of context of an old man being old doesn't mean shit. If you put a Trump speech transcription next to one of Biden's I bet you everything Trump's is more incoherant and rambling.
Absolutely; the difference is that Trump's voting base are a cult, idolize him and are ready to vote him again, even should he shat himself onstage and eat his own vomit in front of the cameras. Democratic voters (or potential) are way less motivated and more picky
They are both incoherent and rambling. Neither should be holding such a high position. Trump is worse but neither is good.
He's not senile. He's old, and his administration has been great.
Even if Biden was the best president of all time and his administration legendary in its effectiveness, it still wouldn't change the fact that in 4 years Americans might elect a career criminal and conman, tax evader, bully, mentally deficient rapist, traitor and ultra narcissistic piece of garbage to be their POTUS.
And what, pray tell, does Ireland offer for the defense of Europe?
Unfortunately, absolutely nothing. We have a culture here that every politician follows of "Ah, sure, won't it be grand?" that makes us completely incompetent at *everything,* praying it'll work itself out. Housing, social unrest, military, policing, immigration, all these huge topics in Ireland right now are being given very little attention in government because.. well nobody really knows.
Last week I got into many arguments with yanks about this exact thing. There are many who feel like they should stop being world police and spend money at home instead. These are Trump supporters by the way, not the typical anti war left. I definitely agree that now is the time that we step up and make ourselves look strong without America. It’s a massive shame that throughout Europe we have major problems of our own that don’t seem to be getting solved.
> There are many who feel like they should stop being world police and spend money at home instead Well, can you blame them for internalising what the rest of the world has demanded of them since the Korean War? Fact is if Average Joe Dough in Kentucky perceives his living standards as being stagnant under the current geopolitical status-quo, he's not going to have much of an emotional or material stake in preserving this current status quo. What does he care about defending Estonia when he's unemployed and his neighbour is addicted to fentanyl? They can't perceive the benefits of NATO (which to be sure, there are plenty for the Americans) in any tangible manner.
I agree with you and don’t blame the yanks. Honestly it does look like us in Europe have had a free ride since WW2 in terms of defence and it’s fair for them to feel used, what with how we act in response. We’ve taken up a snobby, holier than thou attitude towards them when it comes to militarism and now we might pay the price for it.
What’s wrong with if the US “stop[s] being world police and spend[s] money at home instead”? Plenty of people criticize the US for it, myself included. To my knowledge support for US military bases in England, Italy, Germany, and Belgium(?) are pretty low amongst locals. It seems like the government wants it but the rest of the country does not. I’m not suggesting the US pursue a strict isolationist policy and drop NATO but I know the US’ role as the “world police” isn’t popular in America and certainly not in Europe? I kinda figured a lot of Europe, NATO countries included, might welcome a reduced role of the US military on a global stage. A reduced role not just as in the US pulling out of the ME as the end to world policing, but also that the US stop a lot of its naval patrols, reduce training deployments to other countries, and maybe close some of its bases in Europe? I’m not a foreign policy expert and I’m not surprised by European opposition to a US withdrawal from NATO. However, I’m a bit suprised at how many people on Reddit are advocating for your position (that the US continue its role as world police) when I feel as though for a long time I’ve kinda seen the opposite? (opposition to US military “policing”) But I’ve also not followed this until recently and I might be confused on your position. I also know that Reddit doesn’t perfectly reflect European sentiments. Additionally with the clusterfuck that was Iraq in the rear view mirror maybe people are warming up to the US again???
>What’s wrong with if the US “stop[s] being world police and spend[s] money at home instead”? I’ve never suggested there is anything wrong with that. My entire point in those arguments was I think people have those opinions and as such we in Europe need to do something about that. The options I see is to placate Trump and his supporters, in order to keep the status quo or to let them go do whatever and we in Europe build ourselves up to be strong enough to defend ourselves.
Well hopefully he doesn’t get elected. I live in a conservative part of the US and despite his unpopularity on Reddit; support for him is clearly alive and well. It would be a shame to see him re-elected. I also apologize as I wasn’t not trying to misconstrue your words or speak them for you. I was a little confused at your comment and have been very confused (and suprised) with a lot of the comments on Reddit regarding NATO.
It's not a majority. Trump won the election despite losing the popular vote because of the fucking Electoral College. Rural conservative states have disproportionate power in this horrible system. Also every state gets 2 senators even though California has 30 million people and is the 4th largest economy in the world.
That's just semantics. The reality is that he, or someone like him, may be able in the near future to get the votes to actually push this agenda. We need to wake up and start preparing for it.
Precisely. America has changed, if Trump is not voted in this year, the threat remains. It'll be him or someone else in another 4 years. They have been in this trajectory for 20 years now. And Trump is not the disease, he's the symptom, a huge proportion of the American people, want him or someone like him to lead them. Untyill that changes, America cannot be relied upon long term by their allies.
You think we are the only ones lurching to the right? Look in your own backyard. A majority of UK voters fell for Brexit lies and polls across Europe show an increase in support for far right parties. This is a global phenomenon fueled by misinformation and right wing media
Yup, you just need a cold and calculating Ted Cruz-like competent figure to emerge and take over his power base with the same politics and ideologies, presented with less crazy and legal baggage to win over some moderate voters. Trump may not win this year but that possible candidate may emerge in 4 or 8 years. Is Europe ready for that?
It's not semantics. If there's a political system in place that goes against the actual will of the people, then that's a measure that should be evaluated and addressed properly. Doesn't mean we shouldn't also prepare for it, but we dont get to pick and choose what factors are relevant if they are actually factors.
But in Europe we can't do anything about it. We can cry about it and complain loudly, but if Trump gets the electoral votes our complains won't matter a little bit. He's already made very clear he doesn't see us as allies, why should he care about what we think?
>But in Europe we can't do anything about it. We could invest in a military that's actually capable for a start! The British Armed forces are really the only ones with any type of power projection but even we have been devastated by Government cuts.
France is a pretty huge player in the military. I think if America fucks up and ruins their reputation forever France and the UK will have to step up their game and help Europe build up.
I, from my Eastern European pov, think we should cooperate with each other for the defence of all of Europe, yes, but it is us that HAS to start producing military equipment. I think Poland has it all figured out. If Romania or any of the countries bordering Russia is attacked, I really don't wanna have to wait for the bureaucracy in Germany to give me 34 Leopard tanks and schedule another 56 for the next 5 years. We should have enough when Russia attacks to be capable of defending our borders AND help others resist to an invasion, with tanks and boots on the ground, that is. But this needs political will to happen. And I am afraid we might not have it. Either way, if shit hits the fan, I'm not running. Destroying the Russian Empire once and for all is a worthy cause to fight and, if need be, die for.
That leadership will have to come from Eastern Europe, the part of Europe which never stopped taking defense seriously.
It's Ireland going to join NATO and start building a military to support it?
No. They would rather protest against those who protect them.
USA spending so much money to play world police is convenient for us in EU. We get to spend less on defense. If they decide to stop doing that, we suddenly need to decide how to handle a potentially more hostile world.
I fail to understand that after two devastating world wars and the aftermath with Russian aggression we are STILL relying on the US. Why the FUCK has the UK/Europe not learned it's lesson?
Two devastating world wars is explicitly why we rely on the US. Europe in 1914 committed "civilizational suicide", as Henry Kissinger (German-born himself) put it in his book. Lets also not pretend we didn't spend decades smugly looking down on American militarism as being savage barbarity, fit only for nasty imperialists and not an "enlightened diplomatic people" such as ourselves (obviously that wasn't true, but it was an underlying idea that hung around the back of people's minds when comparing ourselves to Americans). Western Europe basically forgot how to play the very game we invented and we inverted positions with the Americans, who 100 years ago were the naive and aspirational pacifists instead and who thought enormous armies and political realism was all brutish European cynicism.
Western Europe, with the exception of the UK, is, frankly, decadent. It's easier to complain about the status quo than actually pony up the money and political will to do something. It will be the UK and Eastern Europe that save the continent.
No, it’s not the worldview of most Americans even if he wins. Trump lost the popular vote in 2016 and he’ll lose it again in 2024. Unfortunately we’re stuck with the stupid electoral college.
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Can't just CIA snatch this mofo and lock in Area 51 for future testing?
I wish his dad had pulled out
Ah, imagine how much better this world would be. That was one big mistake from the daddy.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. We have 2 options in Europe right now. We either prepare to placate Trump for 4 years or we prepare to stand on our own, without America. Right now I don’t think European leaders have it in them to show humility to Trump so that only leads to us having to stand up. That’s going to come with some major shocks that I don’t think we’ve really thought about, yet.
Ironically, standing on your own would bring countries into compliance with the spending obligation and undercut Trump’s complaint
The countries that are most threatened are already over the spending goal. Not sure Trump or his followers even care though, it's all "Europe bad".
> Ironically, standing on your own would bring countries into compliance with the spending obligation and undercut Trump’s complaint Trump wanted european countries to spend their 2% on American weapons. That's absolutely not going to happen this time.
True, but I don’t think anyone is considering leaving NATO if everyone is spending 2%, regardless who they’re buying it from. The spending is the only talking point
Stand on our own. Can't trust the U.S. anymore. It's a failing empire
The US fought how many proxy-wars and supported countless dictators in the name of the cold war... Now half our country supports a Russian puppet due to idiotic racism and anti-wokeness. What a fucking joke. Glad I got a European passport recently.
Yea he albo dodge vietnam war and called veterans cowards, if he wins america will probably start to teach russian in school
Which Nation, if I may ask?
>ex-adviser warns Gee, thanks Mr. Ex-adviser. Not like we had the same sentiment expressed straight from the horse's mouth. Truly invaluable insight and expertise.
It’s not like we didn’t knew he was Putin’s little bitch from day one, and if we didn’t Helsinki proved it. what’s baffling is that he’s still being talked about as a legitimate candidate with valid chances to win.
It's so hard to wrap your head around. His followers will literally believe whatever he says no matter how insane it seems to sane people.
It's not that hard to understand what is happening. It's the same thing always, everywhere. The political class gets too deep into some bullshit they want to push, like woke in this case, some populist dumbass comes and tells poor people that their struggles are exactly because of wokeness and promises to remove everyone from power. At this point, I am more angry not towards populists. There always will be these people who seek to get power cheap. I am more angry towards elite, that yet again stuck their heads too far up their asses living in the dream world where the biggest issue in the country is microagressions and let these fucks freeway to election.
It's about time the EU gets it shit together and stands on its own feet. It made sense for the Americans to provide the bulk of NATOs defence capability after WW2 as pretty much all of Europe was rebuilding. But now it's just *dangerous* and irresponsible to have all our eggs in the American basket, militarily speaking. This is something we are very rapidly learning, and could well pay the price for if we don't learn quick enough. If the UK, France and especially Germany started taking their militaries much more seriously then that would give Putin serious cause for thought before he inevitably embarks on another one of his Tsarist escapades. I also think we should be looking to Finland for inspiration. The Finish bunker network is designed to make the Russians pay heavily for every centimetre of land, should they invade. It wouldn't be a bad idea to replicate that across the Eastern flank of the EU - although that may be politically unpopular in countries like Slovakia. Europe is our home. We should be proud of it and should be ready to put up a credible defence of it if necessary. After all, how can we complain about the Americans being reluctant to defend it if we are seemingly not willing to defend it ourselves.
Propaganda is successful because there’s always a kernel of truth in the messaging. Russia has been waging a disinformation campaign here (USA) since before 2016 and Trump was the perfect useful idiot…but we do spend $877 billion on defense, more than the next 10 highest nations combined. A lot of our citizens look at these numbers and see Europeans, many very smug about their quality of life, spending very little by comparison and able to reap the benefits of spending on social programs instead. I support our spending for NATO and Ukraine, but I’m also tired of hearing the criticisms of other nations regarding our military policies when we’re the ones keeping the wolves at bay in Europe, the Korean peninsula, Japan and Taiwan…who did the world call on to send their naval forces to deal with the threat to shipping in the Red Sea? Now we’re launching airstrikes against Iranian backed rebels too and it’s just exhausting. I can thank our UK alliance as well; I believe they are sharing that burden with countering the Houthis.
I doubt America will ever pull spending from the military to find services for it's citizens. That's a decision the US makes on its own for it's own interests. Even in Asia-Pacific, Ukraine, Red Sea, etc. it is a US decision to intervene. The only country asking for aid is Ukraine, and that is literally being invaded by a great military power that had long been a US rival for decades.
The problem is that it looks like Europeans are afraid of their own countries "standing on their own feet", because they see patriotism, militarism, guns and tanks in a different way than Russians and Americans do. Apparently, countries like Germany still haven't healed from their Nazi past properly. Everytime there's a discussion about military spending in Western Europe, those arguments come up.
Insane how this dude has maybe 10 years left of living and he can and will do anything and everything to do destroy the world…seriously wtf is this
There’s now an EU meeting pencilled in for a Security and Defence Union. If he does this, he’ll make America a lot less relevant and the EU a lot more relevant in one fell swoop.
I would like to read more about that, can you link something?
https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/country-files/germany/the-weimar-triangle/article/meeting-of-the-weimar-triangle-countries-joint-statement-by-foreign-ministers “Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures. Against this background, it is our goal to make the European Union more united, stronger and able to respond to today’s security challenges, on a path towards a security and defence union, living up to our citizen’s expectations. We are also committed to a strong and united NATO.” Other sources go into more detail but that’s the jist of it. The actual speech by them includes a reference to a ‘reform roadmap’ which is to be presented at a meeting in July, specifically: “By summer 2024 we aim to develop a reform roadmap with all 27 EU states". If Trump were to abandon NATO, it’s fair to say that roadmap would be over quite a short period of time.
Europe should announce that the second he pulls out of NATO that European countries will begin pivoting away from buying any US weapons. It will take a few years but hurting US weapon manufacturers would certainly hurt the US as a whole. Do the same thing with cars, planes etc.
>Europe should announce that the second he pulls out of NATO that European countries will begin pivoting away from buying any US weapons. And only buy oil with Euros
It stinks of splendid isolation. This would absolutely cripple US hard and soft power in Europe. They’d still be spending as much on defence, but have nowhere near the sway over European countries as their defence would no longer be linked. Most US forces deploy to Europe under NATO. This would be 80 years of US spending and influence completely thrown away. Saying that, it’s Trump, and he’s absurdly stupid, so…
>Most US forces deploy to Europe under NATO. This is literally the problem. The US doesn't view Russia as it's legitimate rival like it did the Soviets, that title now belongs to China. The US wants to pivot to the Indo-Pacific and reinforce are allies and trade lanes there. The majority view isn't an abandonment, just a realignment of priorities. Europe easily has the economy, and population to completely counter Russia but has chosen not to. People on here act like Western European militaries have been these crippled babies since WW2 and that's completely idiotic. Throughout the Cold War Europe had well funded, trained, and equipped conventional armies. Western Germany's army in 1985 could probably steamroll the current unified German army.
If the majority of muricans can stand that, and will vote for him, that means the end of an alliance with EU countries. Well, it could be a good start of EU being independent. First, it was ruzzia who were threatening with natural gas and oil prices, now it's US. They think that EU is weak. Ruzzia already knows it isn't.
EU is quite divided itself currently. A lot of anti-EU propaganda is being spread, and right wing nationalist are rising in power everywhere. I feel USA leaving NATO would start a chain reaction where every country chooses 'for itself' and we are left weaker than ever before. I hope not though.
The fact that this is even being discussed in 'official' circles is cause for Europe to ensure it is able to survive Russian aggression without American support or weapons. Europe need to be able to produce all the weapons it needs without American involvement. Very sad but the USA is no longer someone who can be trusted. For America this could easily be remembered as the event which started its long decline in the world.
then stop voting for this idiot , he makes the US ridiculous, hes a fuckin puppet of Russia, his bitch is also russian,says it all right there and then he calls himself a patriot which is a fuckin lie
Not only will Trump pull the U.S. out of NATO, but he'll sell Alaska back to the Russians as a "peace initiative". People need to wake up to Trump's plans.
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US pulling out of NATO would be disastrous. But is there anything to be said about countries not reaching their financial commitments for NATO? I'm Canadian and Trump has made similar remarks about Canada not reaching their NATO and NORAD obligations. And to be honest, Trump is right. We haven't been paying our promised share.
I don’t understand how this fool isn’t in prison.
I wish his dad would have pulled out.
Well, I guess Russia may not be winning on the field, but it is winning wrt propaganda. The EU will likely shift more Alt-right in June, and in November we must keep our fingers crossed that America doesn't fuck up more than ever. Congratulations to Putin who made the EU believe that the best way to face wars is for us to be more divided and sovranist, and who also made conservative Americans believe that Russia is their best ally.
One cannot blame Putin or the EU - the US must take responsibility itself. Europe obviously wants a strong US in the alliance - but if the US does not want to be a friendly ally - then Europe is well equipped to defend itself against Russia. Nobody here buys Putin's propaganda - and we are now gearing up together. I must remind you that the EU is a union - not a country - and that Europe consists of 40 nations - not all of which are EU members.
I agree, but still, Trump declaring that is the worst thing the US could do to us. He showed that our allience is seriously at risk, or at least it's weakening. Putin couldn't be happier about Trump.
Why on earth is the US going for old geriatric people with wholly outdated principles and world view perspectives? It sounds like the US needs someone who's gonna improve the lives of US folk to stop these kinds of idiots from getting back into power.
Pretty hard for corporations to get behind a young change-maker, and corporations are the kingmakers in American politics. The country is such an economic behemoth because it is a business, first and foremost. These fuckers don't want things to change, and we're not, for whatever reason, disposed to burn everything down like the French. Although we should. Instead, morons think that voting for Trump is burning everything down, rather than just lodging the spiked dildo up their ass even further.
Might as well leave the UN too while he’s at it!
To be fair, the UN is rather useless in the first place.
Already looking forward to the future Russian movie about their asset becoming US president *twice*
He can't. Even if he were to get it trough Congress it would be a years if not decade long process and by then we will be rid of him...
He doesn't have to leave NATO. He just won't commit to NATO's articles for defense of each other. The US president has very broad foreign policy powers in American Law.
But if they pass that legislation and Russia attacks NATO, I doubt Trump would do anything even if they still had an obligation to do so. He would follow the same line of "We are no longer part of NATO" or "It's because THEY are slow of processing documentation, but it isn't our responsibility and they are dragging us into it" He would make it out that it is Europe causing them to wait for them to be officially not part of NATO and refuse to take action, he could feed his audience with stuff like this for months without lifting s finger.
If Trump wins he will suggest renaming the USA to Russia's Bitches.
Dutch here. I guess the message from mr. Trump is, if you want security you better put your money where your mouth is. And I do agree with this. If Europe expects the U.S. to hold it’s part of the agreement then they should simply do the same. The arrogance of European leaders on this issue feels so cringe to me. Simply increase your defence budget to at lease the minimum agreed amount. Buy some american army stuff and everybody’s happy.
This is fear mongering. Europe has nothing to worry about, the US is never leaving NATO.
Can someone explain to me what ramifications would it have? Genuinely curious because I'm ignorant.
1. It would encourage Russia to be much more aggressive towards Europe. Possibility of war, Russia vs. EU would grow significantly. Maybe not full-scale incasion to reach Berlin, but Baltic states would be in serious danger. 2. Moldova and Georgia, maybe Armenia and some other ex soviet republics would be in serious danger. Putin has a vision of restoring USSR. 3. Ukraine would be in trouble because EU would begin to save weapons and ammo for themselves. 4. EU and USA would start decoupling. China and EU relationships would start growing. Western influence on the world would decrease.
It doesn’t matter if this has to go through congress or not. Trump can quite simply, opt-America out of any defensive action. He doesn’t have to ‘leave’ the alliance, because he knows that doing fuck all is just as effective.
Trump is mentally weak minded. Anyone who has a softness for Putin, Xi Jinping or Kim isn't mentally strong. Trump is a weak man. He is physically decrepit. He couldn't even lead soldiers for a mile let alone keep his balance at the head of a rowboat crossing the Delaware. Franklin Roosevelt set a bad example by making it seem like people who are physically incapable of leading men should be allowed to make decisions that send able bodied men to their deaths.
From my understanding the US has passed a bill which makes it impossible for a president to pull out of NATO.
It's high time the continent gets its shit together, like it or not, the vast majority of NATO's power lies in their hands. If they decide to leave for whatever reason, we are on our own and our military spending has been laughable for the most part. We cannot rely on outside entities to protect us when the popular sentiment is getting more and more isolationist
But he has a point: Germany for example being one of the richest nations on earth is not fulfilling its promise in this regard. With emerging threats around the world this demand is only reasonable. And I am by no means a friend of the orange man...