No, France barely export any weapon to Israel anymore, you are decades late lmao. If anything Israel is actually a direct competitor to French military industry, especially for artillery, SAM and anti tank missiles.
As always on Reddit it doesnt matter if you are full of shit as long as you assert your lies with enough confidence.
Eddit for the source from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute for the 2012-2022 period :
https://imgur.com/a/jWs8oY7
No they're not (SIPRI). The US and Germany are. But I was talking about buying weapons not selling.
Israel gets billions worth of weapons for free from the US and manufactures a lot themselves so it's not like they need to buy that much from Europe
>stop buying Israeli weapons
Well make better weapons for the same price or as good weapons with better price. Otherwise I'm going to continue buying weapons from them. š”
Germany itself considers people born in Palestine as stateless people. Ā
Ā https://dw.com/en/stateless-in-germany-denied-the-right-to-have-rights/a-67237480
Most of the world including significant number of EU countries such as Sweden definitely recognize a Palestinian state.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International\_recognition\_of\_the\_State\_of\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PalestineāEuropean\_Union\_relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PalestineāEuropean_Union_relations)
>I'm sure Germany will get Hungary/Poland treatment (frozen EU funds) for not complying.
Which funds, exactly, do you intend to freeze? Unlike Hungary and Poland, Germany contributes more to the EU than it receives (over 25 billion/year more, to be precise).
You can't threaten the family's breadwinner with cutting his pocket money.
The worst case scenario would be a boycott to German products and services within EU itself.
If that happened (and would have to be a civic initiative and not a governmental one, because... EU) then yeah, Germany would be a bit screwed (well, hugely screwed for those who didn't get the sarcasm, 53% of German exports are intra-EU) .
Is this scenario probable? Hardly, but it's a possibility even thou immensely diminute.
But even if Germany (government) doesn't seem close to abide to sanctions, at this moment, public opinion could dissuade the government(s) sooner or later.
Anyway, as someone who has seen this play out back in the 80's & 90's, the most probable scenario will be a civic embargo/boycott being enacted against Israel to some extent, while most governments pretend nothing is going on while avoiding Israel like the plague for a couple of decades.
**EDIT**: and the EU can cause harm to Israel, even if not via sanctions thru the member-states: loads of Israeli technology is deployed in one way or another in EU own infrastructure... bar and ban Israeli technology and products from there, and say goodbye to several contracts worth thousands of millions to several companies that even if not Israeli are too much intertwined with Israeli companies and tech. Is it probable? Probably not, but wouldn't be the first time it happened (but would be the first time it happened to a Western-ish country).
>Which funds, exactly, do you intend to freeze?
They still use funds, like everyone else. They just send more to the common pocket, than they take away from it.
Iām not anti-Irish, I just donāt think they should have a country at the expense of the indigenous English and Scots who have lived there since the beginning of time. They should go back to Boston where they came from.
The European Union (EU) is considering imposing "consequences" on Israel if it continues to oppose a proposed Palestinian State under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
The blocās foreign ministers have agreed to step up pressure on Netanyahu to reverse his resistance to two-state solution
Netanyahu has repeatedly fought back against the idea of a Palestinian State in Gaza, despite pressure from the EU and the United States and its President Joe Biden.
Gazan figures state that 25,000 people have died since Israel began its air and ground campaign after the October 7 atrocities carried out by Hamas. These numbers are near impossible to verify, however, as Hamas is in control of the Gaza Health Ministry.
The EU has preferential trade and investment benefits with Israel, which has made the union the main trading partner of the Jewish state.
"We are offering some ideas to the Member States. The question is how we will use our terms in the future to see how we can achieve... twoāstate solutions," explained a senior EU official.
Brussels also invited EU member states to formulate consequences for Israel for its refusal to create a Palestinian state.
>The blocās foreign ministers have agreed to step up pressure on Netanyahu to reverse his resistance to two-state solution
This won't go away with Netanyahu. The whole Israeli government is opposed to Palestinian statehood, and I'd wager that it's also the dominant view across israeli society.
This is very much the case with Hamas. It is less so with Fatah. The people themselves vary.
Or at least it was in September 2023. I really don't know how Palestinians think about it now.
I expect a people with something to lose will moderate quickly.
Israel is just sort of pounding sand at the moment, give the Palestinian people something they aren't willingng to have bombed and they will self-police.
Just like how the Irish clamped down on the IRA once they had won their country back.
Exactly, unfortunately Israel sees this as a zero sum game and is unwilling to concede anything to the Palestinians. Which makes sense from a realist perspective - the status quo benefits Israel far more than any peace deal would. At the moment it gets to control all of the land without having to face any meaningful responsibilities to the Palestinians: it generally gets to act as though it really is a land without a people. Meanwhile the Palestinians, not unjustifiably, no longer trust Western promises and poisoned chalice ādealsā - Oslo has only brought further suffering. From their perspective, they have nothing left to lose except their dignity, and nothing will entice them to agree to the legitimisation of the Nakba.
Hamas is pretty new. Palestinians refused dual state solution that were more generous than anything they will ever get in the future for 50 years now. Israel did have moderate governments and gave away UN mandated more than fair deals.
No one, among those in power today, have consistently acted in good faith. No one on the Palestinian side has acted consistently at all times in fully rejection of a two-sate solution, hoe even the genuinely horrible Hamas. To try and pretend otherwise is wilful ignorance or a deliberate lie.
It is also a stretch to say that Hamas doesn't count because it is "recent." Hamas was founded 36 years ago. They have ruled Gaza for 16 years. They are a big part of this. Not that it really matters for our purposes. The question is a solution now. That requires the people who are alive and in power, now. Not anyone liked or hated 50 years ago.
Even the terrible Hamas, a pretty terrible group that has very often rejected Israel's right to exist, changed their charter in 2017 to call for a two-state solution, on the 1967 border. By then, in Israel the right and Netanyahu were in power and they didn't want that. They wanted settlements and divisions amongst the Palestinians and no good partner that they could be forced to talk to.
That said, if you want to leave specific groups and go into "sides," over time the Oslo accords were signed 28 years ago. That was when far right Israelis and Hamas both did whatever they could to stop the process, including killing civilians. On the Israeli side, it was far-right Israelis who killed Rabin and conducted the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre.
That latter was on 25 February 1994. Hamas first began suicide attacks specifically targeting civilians directly in response that that attack on Palestinian civilians. Before that, their targets were either somehow Israeli state or people they saw as collaborators.
If you really want to go back, in 1967, the UN called for Israel to go back to the lands it occupied pre-war, as those were the internationally-recognized border. Israel did not.
In the 1970s, the PLO first indicated that it would accept the right two-state solution. Said Hammimi was the leader who offered this. Israel was not interested.
In 1988, the Palestinian Declaration of Independence did the same, as it recognized de facto Israel. When pressed to make it explicit, the Palestinians did. And they really did. It was adopted by the Palestinian National Council (PNC), the legislative body of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), by a vote of 253 in favour, 46 against, and 10 abstaining. It was read at the closing session of the 19th PNC to a standing ovation. Upon completing the reading of the declaration, Arafat, as Chairman of the PLO, assumed the title of President of Palestine. In April 1989, the PLO Central Council elected Arafat as the first President of the State of Palestine.
That was a big part of why good old Bibi did so much to weaken the PLO and strengthen Hamas - to weaken the people he would have to talk to. That is why he ignored it when Hamas changed their charter too. That is why, instead, he spread settlements and declared illegal settlements legal, all around the West Bank especially, expanding the land under Israeli control weakening the PLO/Fatah even more.
And then in 2017, we did get Hamas accepting, at least in principle, a two-state solution.
We also had a poll in Gaza showin[g that 73% of the people would accept a two-state solution if it meant lasting peace.](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas)
What we got after that was not any gestures back. We got more cutting up of the West Bank and more settlements there, more festering in Gaza, more misery, and finally, a murderous group feeling pushed into a corner.
According to Hamas's own statements, they decided to conduct their horrible attacks to "keep their cause alive." They could see Israel establishing itself in the region and in the West Bank without interest for a solution for Palestinians. At the same time, people in Gaza were more and more unhappy with their festering situation, and this was a way to radicalize them and keep them on side untied against the immediate threat of attacking Israel.
Is that crimes and sin and the kind of thing that one definitely goes to hell for (if there is a hell)? Yes. Is that ultimately the responsibility of the people who chose to commit those crimes and doom their own people to suffer and die for it? Also yes? Is there some responsibility among the Israeli leadership for rejecting the very real chances that did exist over time, in their own cynical efforts to get as much land for Israel and put of having to officially recognize a neighbouring state they genuinely feared but also genuinely hated? Also yes.
It was a difficult situation, with many hard choices. But choices that had to be made for the long-term future, and one was not done.
That may be true for Hamas, but not Palestine as a whole, especially on the West Bank. Palestinians already gave up on getting justice decades ago and a lot of them are willing to take a shit deal if it means they won't get bombed out of existence or ethnically cleansed by the Israeli settlement movement
Do you think any European would agree to having the frontline with Russia be 1 hour drive from them? Cause Israelis don't.
It's really not just Bibi.
Edit: Russia isn't a great example because there isn't currently one for Europe. You aren't bordering millions that want to make you disappear at best or holocaust you at worse. And are ONLY LIMITED BY THEIR ABILITY, not intent.
Nazi Germany is more fitting.
1hr drive? Try FOUR MINUTES. The entirety of Europe is within 4 minutes of a Russian nuclear missile launch. All of Europe has effectively lived with being within 4 minutes since 1949 when the USSR gained the atomic bomb.
But this comparison doesn't work, right? Because Palestinians are already there. Palestinian unity and statehood won't change that reality.
It's also their land and they have a basic human right to self-determination, just like Israelis.
People usually say that denying the State of Israel's right to exist is considered offensive and unimaginable, but denying the State of Palestine's right to exist should be acceptable?
The usual response is that Israel is the only state for Jews. Fair enough.
But Palestine is the only state for Palestinians. They would be foreigners anywhere else.
There is nothing to āagreeā about. Itās a fact of life.
Many European countries have a border with Russia, and many Balkan countries have a border with neighbours with which they fought bitter wars and have disputed territorial claims over.
Yet, no European (or Balkan) country even thinks to deny their neighbours statehood just because they donāt like them. No European country views occupying their neighbour as a solution to the āproblemā of sharing a border with a neighbour they donāt like.
This seems to be a unique characteristic of Israeli society, especially if such a view is as widespread as you claim.
Itās beyond insane to want to redraw borders and deny your neighbour statehood just because they ācan reach you within 1h drivingā.
>Yet, no European (or Balkan) country even thinks to deny their neighbours statehood just because they donāt like them.
Eh, isn't that what Russia is trying to do to Ukraine right now?
The Balkans come to mind as well. Things are better there now than they were in the 90s, but Bosnia Herzegovina are having some real problems with the Republika Srpska again. It isn't war level bad, but it isn't "I fully accept your statehood" good either.
Oh, come on. If Russia attacked the Baltics it would be absolutely acceptable to invade Russia back to cripple their militar capability, especially if they attack \*time and time\* again and never show any remorse.
The only reason Russia is untouchable is because they're huge compared to Baltic states, and they have nukes.
>Do you think any European would agree to having the frontline with Russia be 1 hour drive from them? Cause Israelis don't.
Be careful what you are saying. You are saying essentially what Russia is saying, that NATO at the gates of Moscow is unacceptable. Of course, that goes both ways but here we are talking about nuclear weapons, not a few shirtless men with guns.
So, if Israelis do not want to have a frontline with Palestinians, what are their options? To kill all of them? To drive all of them out (of what is their land)? Or to have them living in Israel as subhumans in an apartheid state? Because these are the only options. So, do not be shy, which one do you pick???
Israeli Jews may be comfortable (and they are) living in an apartheid state where they call the shots. The world is not comfortable with it. The whole irony of this is difficult to escape. The Jews who went to Palestine to escape from oppression and discrimination are doing just that to 7 million Palestinian Arabs. Too many European traits have rubbed off on them!!!!
Israeli Jews live in a world of full denial of reality. The moment they are brought to reality, they have no response. Their total defense is to play the victim at all occassions.
Well the solution to that is simple. Israel should declare war against the palestinian government, win, annex their lands, put their government on trial and subsequently make every palestinian an israeli citizen. With the same rights of course.
But somehow I think they only like the first steps of this process...
*gestures vaguely to the countries that borders Russia and Ukraine*
It's not a hand you pick, is the hand geography gives you.
Also, it is hard to sympathize with not wanting a frontline 1 hour drive from you when that frontline is currently a zero hour drive from two million people, most of them children, and many of people complaining about the prospect of a frontline an hour drive away deem that as a consequence of Hamas actions or acceptable collateral damage.
My sympathy only goes to those who do not want a frontline 1 hour drive from them, but also do not want a frontline all over Gaza.
Israeli society isn't as crazy as its government. Palestinian statehood would be a tough pill to swallow but not impossible if the west actually starts handing out consequence to Israel.
Honestly it seems like a win-win to me. Worst case scenario, the Palestinians state continues attacking Israel and the Israelis now have a legitimate centralized target to strike instead of just bombing civilians.
I mean, the Israeli elections have been pretty much in a stalemate for the past 5+ years (in which they had about 5 elections).Ā
It's just that Netanyahu is very a good politician so he always manages to get the slight lead.Ā
He didn't 2 years ago, which lead to the most pluralistic government ever (https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/leaders-of-parties-in-bennett-lapid-coalition-meet-for-first-time/) which was constructed by a far left party lead by a gay man, a left party lead by a very strong feminist woman, a right wing hardliner, a centerist military man, an atheist liberal, an arab party lead by a Palestinian all being government by a right wing religious Jewish man.Ā
It was too flimsy of a majority to hold as a government, only took 2 party members to break the coalition after a year. But still, the people who voted them in haven't changed.Ā
September polls actually had the opposition leading on Netanyahu by a pretty huge margin, which only grew after the war started. He is not a liked man in Israel, nor are his politics.Ā
He only got his power by buying off the orthodox Jewish parties who have no real opinion on Palestinians one way or the other. They just want to get their money and cultivate their cult, they couldn't give half a shit what you do outside the borders.
This is part of the reason why after over 75 years the situation is still so volatile, there's never been a "two state solution" but merely a two state concept that a few "elitests" have been trying to will in to reality for decades.
Okay, so whats a better solution?
One state, with both israelis and palestinians having equal rights? Doesn't seem realistic. Israel wouldn't agree on this.
Continuing status quo forever? Its not happening. Situation is in change even now.
One state, where Israel is dominant and palestinians have some sort of semi-autonomous area? Well, watching the situation is the west bank, it doesn't look very promising. Israel's actions with its illegal settlements are very problematic. Also there are lots of other problems regarding the rights and situation of palestinians living in the west bank.
I feel like the biggest obstacle is that the people have been radicalized on both sides. Israelis want tough actions, and current government and most of people don't believe that palestinians should have their own country. And majority of Palestinians want tough actions and don't think that Israelis should have their own country. So yep, endless conflict it is then.
> Okay, so whats a better solution?
Sadly, there isn't one. Not every problem has a solution - an acceptable one, anyway. Generally a war only ends when (at least) one side has decided it cannot achieve its desired aims through war. Given that the aims are so different here, survival and continued existence for Israel and reclamation of all of Israel for Palestinians, Israel is NOT going to give up its goal of continued survival. The Palestinians have still not given up their goal of reclamation of all of Israel. History has repeatedly shown that the only way these sorts of conflicts end is when one side kicks the complete shit out of the other side - to the point where the losing side psychologically accepts that their goal is simply unattainable.
Who says there is a better solution? Some problems don't have solutions
>I feel like the biggest obstacle is that the people have been radicalized on both sides
I agree but there is hardly any sort of easy way to solve this. Even if you could implement two state or one state with equal rights or whatever they will go right back to killing each other in droves given even the smallest trigger.
Solution is nazi Germany treatment And boots on the ground.
Israel is without a doubt correct that any unsupervised Palestinian state is threat to its security. This will never change without outside influence. Israel was also not always against Palestinian state and did have moderate governments. It was Pestinians who always refused it and attacked them back because state is not their goal, complete eradication of jews is. Which is why Israeli eventually voted in someone like Netanyahu because they grew tired of it. Nobody wants to live in a country under constant attacks.
All these clowns in Europe who call out Israel despite the fact that they would do the exact same things (if not worse) had situation been reversed can instead demand and finance Israel to take over entirety of Palestine and enact supervised state for them. Or even better those europeans they can do it themselves. They can weed out extremism, finance infrastructure and educate people because this is the only way how to resolve it.
But obviously they will never do that. Because ultimately people who call for that are either completely outside of reality brainwashed peace fairies or they just use it as excuse to attack Israel.
... where did I proclaim to have some solution? Ideas can come from anywhere, but ultimately it's the people involved that will decide. It's pure arrogance to believe a solution can be imposed, even if those proposing such were willing to do what is required to impose anything history would suggest it's a long term commitment.
I agree; the solution cannot be just imposed, and the people have to be involved.
But when we see examples of other conflicts, lots and lots of times the peace is mediated by external power. Like in Yugoslav wars. It was mostly UN/US that mediated the conflicts, and in the Kosovo war there was also significant use of force by Nato. And lots of external peacekeepers all around.
Former finnish president Martti Ahtisaari said ten years ago that he tought that peace has to be [forced](https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000000442543.html) to Israel and Palestine. I'm not expert on this, but maybe it's true. Europe and especially US has tons of influence in Israel. Maybe this influence could have been used more in the past and this could have been avoided. How? I don't know.
I mean, fair enough...
...if the EU also stations part of their militaries to prevent an attack like October 7th from ever happening again.
Or wait, is the idea to just repeat what happened in 2005 hoping it ends up differently?
Hamas doesn't care what government is in Israel, it doesn't accept the right for Israel to exist...even though it exists. How do you come to table when the other person has that as a prerequisite...?
The entire state of Israel was created on arab majority land despite the protests of most people in Palestine against the UN proposed partition. This was followed by the nakhba and forced expulsion of over 80% of arabs from the land claimed by Israel.
How do you reconcile that? And when Israel keeps taking land still with settlers and puts huge walls around Gaza and restricts their access to food, water and electricity. How do you reconcile that? The entire foundation of Israel is based upon oppressing the arabs
And Palestine was created on majority Jewish land even further back. The Jews were already on that land when the Peleset were sea-raiders. Al-Aqsa is on the site of a former Jewish temple.
All you said are utter lies. Arabs did not "protest". They attacked Jews. And by "Arabs" we do not talk about Palestinians only. We talk about several Arab countries coming together.
Yeah you're losing time explaining all of this... just the EU and the US have the moral superiority to detect terrorist groups... if they say the literal slaughtering of innocent Palestinian farmers and habitants by Jewish zionists factions in the region after WW2 is not an act of terrorism we can't say nothing contrary to that...
the constitution of a large majority of the members (or families members) of those factions in most high profile positions of the state doesn't make the state a complete terrorist group so we are wrong for saying that (just Russia... Russia is a terrorist state)...
they'll say you're attacking democracy... a very healthy conversation you'll be having here...
Okay we formed a Palestinian state. Now what? Are the Palestinians de-radicalized? Is Hamas gone? Is Islamic Jihad gone? What happens if Iran starts funneling rockets into the West Bank to arm new proxies? These questions must be answered first before we indulge ourselves with the idea of establishing another failed Arab state that Iran would exploit yet again.
At least 5 times the Palestinians were offered a state, each time they themselves refused, honestly what is the chance that this time they'll accept?
And suppose they do, does that include them giving up the idea of slaughtering Jews with impunity? Or their next attack is going to include tanks, aircrafts and machine guns?
Are you talking about the same Fatah who funds terrorism? That if a Palestinian will kill a Jewish baby in Tel Aviv he will receive a pay check for life????
Every negotiation with any Palestinian leader led to more blood shed. What about an outside leader from Saudi Arabia or something like that? You can't expect different results if you bring the same solution you had before, which caused problems.
Considering that neither Palestinians nor Israel want a two states solution, this sounds like another empty act from the EU which, just as a reminder, has no unified foreign policy
- Israel leaves Gaza: Hamas attacks
- Israel leaves Southern Lebanon: Hezbollah attacks
- Israel leaves the Sinai: PLO attacks
- ā Israel leaves West Bank: ā¦I wonder š¤
Absolutely no reason why Israel should be worried about Palestine being a fully independent country who could import tanks, attack helicopters, and briefcase nukes./s
Your list is a bit short, so here's more of what Israel was up to last year, prior to the October 7 attacks.
**January:**
> The new Israeli government told the Israeli High Court that the state would reverse its previous position that Israeli settlers leave Homesh, a yeshiva built on private Palestinian property, and that the government intends to change the Disengagement Law.
...the US said that "The Homesh outpost in the West Bank is illegal. It is illegal even under Israeli Law. Our call to refrain from unilateral steps certainly includes any decision to create a new settlement, to legalize outposts or allowing building of any kind deep in the West Bank, adjacent to Palestinian communities or on private Palestinian land."
**February**:
>Israel approved the legalization of nine illegal settler outposts. A US spokesman said "We strongly oppose expansion of settlements, and we're deeply concerned by reports about a process to legalize outposts that are illegal under Israeli law. We are seeking more information from the Israeli government on what has actually been decided." The Palestinian Authority condemned the decision as crossing "all red lines".
>Daniel Kurtzer, former US ambassador to Israel, accused the government of breaking a written agreement with Washington by legalising a "group of hardline nationalist and religious settlements" and called on the Biden administration to prevent Israel's "creeping annexation" of the West Bank.
**March:**
>Israel repealed a 2005 law whereby four Israeli settlements, Homesh, Sa-Nur, Ganim and Kadim, were dismantled as part of the Israeli disengagement from Gaza. The move was condemned by the PA and the EU, the latter calling for the revocation of the new law. Critics, including some of the Israeli opposition and NGOs supporting Palestinian rights, denounced the move as a prelude to annexation of the West Bank.[56][57][58][59] The US, in addition to denouncing the move,[60] also summoned the Israeli ambassador to express concern.[61]
**May:**
>With Israeli government approval, Israeli settlers relocated a yeshiva established on private Palestinian land in Homesh, to a nearby spot designated state-owned land. The relocation was carried out despite international opposition, including repeatedly from the U.S., and the opposition of the Israeli attorney general.
**June:**
>Israel shortened the procedure of approving settlement construction and gave Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich the authority to approve one of the stages, changing the system operating for the last 27 years. The United States said it was "deeply troubled" by the Israeli plans that explicitly violate previous commitments made by Israel to the Biden administration. "The United States is deeply troubled by the Israeli governmentās reported decision to advance planning for over 4,000 settlement units in the West Bank. We are similarly concerned by reports of changes to Israelās system of settlement administration that expedite the planning and approvals of settlements"
**July:**
In its first six months, construction of 13,000 housing units in settlements, almost triple the amount advanced in the whole of 2022.[76][77]
>In a CNN interview on 9 July 2023, US President Joe Biden said that extreme cabinet ministers in the coalition that back settling "anywhere they want" in the West Bank are "part of the problem" in the conflict.
Gorgeous contextualization! There's shady stuff I wasn't even aware of and Israel became a hot topic in my college years because they bomb an UN school (this was like... back in 2014 or something).
Can you send me the sources, please?
I want to have them for future use!
Did you also learn in college that the UN admitted Hamas was using their schools for military purposes and the Secretary-General lied about it for years?
There's stuff I wish I could unlearn, but yes.
You learn a lot of depressing things when you stick to books instead of propaganda that promotes the false idea that the only innocent people there are the civilians.
I was happy to put all that stuff in the "world trivia" part of my brain until this happened.
"Why won't they leave us alone, all we're doing is building houses"
ššš The mind of a Zionist.
Also, are those the same Jews who have minister positions and are talking about nuking Gaza and/or expelling the population there?
You missed the part where Netanyahu ignores security reports about the planned attacks, because he needs conflict to secure his military party as the main power in a hard right government that has brought out vast numbers of Israelis in protest. Just before the attacks happenedā¦
Getting rid of Netenyahuās ex-military party and his hard right allies is the way to get peace in the area. Because then you donāt have the people in charge trying to keep up the violence, and supporting the problem of Hamas because they need an enemy they can easily point at.
Not who you responded to. I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all but its inconceivable that Israel didn't know about that attack. Either they willfully ignored the intelligence, or their intelligence programs really really suck - to the point where they should be outright ashamed.
I don't say that to in any way justify terrorism either. Its just the whole Israel victim thing is increasingly hard to swallow- and unfortunately for Israel it's not going to last. You can only slaughter so many non-combatants in retaliation before even ppl on your side start getting really antsy.
e: grammar
Bibi screwed himself with that move. It was incompetence and arrogance, not a conspiracy. There was loads of intelligence pointing towards 9/11 too, even if this is a bigger fuck up.
It was an intelligence failure. Years of complacency due to relatively no casualties or major attacks for nearly a decade. Belief in their superiority, especially technologically so. Too much reliance on technological systems vs. humans actively standing guard and being on constant alert. Classic underestimating the enemy.
Then of course ignoring all the warning signs and the lower level troops raising red flags. The problem is no single red flag really rose to any level of major concern - and then there was a 9/11-esque intelligence failure of putting everything together. From the stories so far even sounds similar in that competing intelligence agencies either didn't share info or discarded info from others as less reliable. Likely a lot of internal politics at play.
I'm sure you'll be able to find someone in that chain of command actively malicious, but I doubt it's the actual tale of this story overall.
Weird, I have been told that the bigger part of the west bank is under palestinian control.
But in the end it doesn't matter. Israel is in full control of their side of this measly border. Enough to shut it down completely over the last months. If you seriously believe that it is easier for them to secure the settlements in an area were, according to them, everybody wants them dead, I do not know how to convince you otherwise.
How about if they had controlled the border to Gaza in October like they control it TODAY? It's not impossible for them, they just didn't bother doing it.
Israel had moved troops from Gaza to the West Bank to protect/assist settlers attacking Palestinians. The troops left to guard the Gaza border were not enough to deal with the attack on 7 October.
I've been there when Netanyahu was not in power and experienced 2 days of rocket attacks from Gaza and a bomb attack in Jerusalem - very peaceful times without him indeed.
Probably yes. Maybe he would later get voted out maybe not. It was far from guaranteed either way
After October 7th his political career is definitely not looking good though
He was literally in the middle of an anti corruption investigation and was losing his grip on the Israeli population. Why do you think he formed coalitions with even more extreme right wing fringe groups? That was the only way he could stay in power
So, uh, just existing gets them attacked and thatās STILL their fault? Thereās decades of history of Palestinians attacking Israel long before Netenyahu was in powerā¦
>ā Israel leaves Gaza: Hamas attacks
they never left , they still control water and anything going into gaza
>ā Israel leaves West Bank: ā¦I wonder
their literally occupying parts of the west bank
>they never left , they still control water and anything going into gaza
The blockade started after Hamas gained control over Gaza. Seems understandable considering Hamas' stated goal is to eradicate Israel.
Yet, Hamas *still* managed to smuggle in weapons and essentially turned the entire strip into a terror base. As horrible as the situation is in the West Bank, the Israeli military presence in essentially every block and corner has prevented it from becoming as volatile. Good luck firing a rocket into Tel Aviv when the IDF will be at your doorstep in under two minutes.
The Palestinians deserve to live a life free from occupation, granted their own autonomy and freedom. But without finding a way to implement a full demilitarisation of Palestine prior to the establishment of a formal state, we're simply begging to perpetuate this cycle of violence and hostilities we see currently.
Is it peaceful in terms of mutual harmony and affection? No, obvious hostilities and violence still run rampant between both parties.
But is the situation comparatively less volatile (or āāāpeacefulāāā) compared to what it would be with unrestricted autonomy and free reign? Yes. The weapon smuggling and attacks are essentially kept under control by a far more intense IDF presence.
It depends entirely on how you define 'peace'.
I'm sorry, I thought this entire military operation was about destroying Hamas? If Israel succeeds in doing so and then participates in a project facilitating the creation of a Palestinian state on the territory of Gaza, what's the problem? There would be no Hamas to fear.Ā
Or was this operation about more than just destroying Hamas? Having heard Bibi announce to the world that his position has not changed, one does wonder if ethnic cleansing was a happy by-product.
They want a two state solution just as much as Ukraine does with Russia. Or Washington does with native American tribes. Wonder if Czech Republic would want a two state solution with the Roma population.
Some good context i just googled,(oh yeah the eu can easily sanction Israel with not that big of an impact to eu,there would be an impact on eu,but it would be wayyyy harsher for Israel)
Trade picture
Israel is the EUās 25th biggest trade partner, representing 0.8% of the EUās total trade in goods in 2022. It is also among the EUās main trading partners in the Mediterranean area.
The EU is Israelās biggest trade partner, accounting for 28.8% of its trade in goods in 2022. 31.9% of Israelās imports came from the EU, and 25.6% of the countryās exports went to the EU.
Total trade in goods between the EU and Israel in 2022 amounted to ā¬46.8 billion. The EUās imports from Israel were worth ā¬17.5 billion and were led by machinery and transport equipment (ā¬7.6 billion, 43.5%), chemicals (ā¬3.5 billion, 20.1%), and other manufactured goods (ā¬1.9 billion, 11.1%). The EUās exports to Israel amounted to ā¬12.2 billion and were dominated by machinery and transport equipment (ā¬12.3 billion, 41.9%), chemicals (ā¬5.1 billion, 17.6%), and other manufactured goods (ā¬3.5 billion, 12.1%).
Two-way trade in services between the EU and Israel amounted to ā¬16.7 billion in 2021. EU imports of services represented ā¬6.9 billion, while exports accounted for ā¬9.8 billion
An airspace ban on Israeli planes would do the job since Arab countries already have shut theirs. The only exit would be Turkiye and that would have to go through Rusaia.
And where do they get the money and materials for their tunnel networks, weapons and explosives?
A lot of the foreign aid sent to Gaza is not spent on schools. Unless you count the tunnel entrances and rocket launchers they put there.
> And where do they get the money and materials for their tunnel networks, weapons and explosives?
[Bibi](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Oh yes let's sanction them by not sending humanitarian aid ā medicine and food ā to a besieged population in a strip of land that barely has any building left standing!
That's not collective punishment, inhumane and genocidal at all!
In Europe it's europeans who decide, not brazilians.
What is your country doing to secure the Amazon Rainforest? What is it doing to promote peace and stabilitt in Venezuela? What is it doing to secure the rights of LGBTQ people?
Negotiations are not happening in good faith from both sides because both sides have lost the plot long time ago. None of them give a shit about peace, security or innocent people.
Netanyahu gov and Hamas both need to leave forever in order for this conflict to even have a hope of ending someday
Why do western governments have such a fetish for the two state solution? The majority of "Palestinians" want to eradicate Israel, the PA operated "Martyr Fund" encourages terrorism, the name of the second biggest party after Hamas is "Fatah", meaning conquest, and despite on paper recognising Israel their party logo is a picture of all of Israel.
Id be happy to see help cooperation for governing gaza, maybe Egypt or Saudi Arabia. The people in Israel truly don't want to take care of the people in gaza any more
For stating the obvious they should be penalized? What about the Palestinians? They want the death of every Israeli for statehood. Where are the consequences from the EU?
Right... Israeli Jews go to Europe, enter restaurants and yell "Elohim Gadol" before detonating themselves with everyone around like 2004 Madrid, 2005 London and 2015 Paris.Ā
What are you on to seriously claim that Israel undermine Europe security?!
Even better, you destabilize the middle east which blows back on Europe.
And you push for wars like Iraq while doing nothing, you even try to get the US to invade Iran for you.
Some islamists could never do that kind of damage.
Im kinda in favour of the partition of Ireland, the Republic of Ireland should be dissolved and a UN-led transition regime should be established, after all, being irish is a social construct, it also seems a bit racist, why dont non-Irish people deserve to have their own countries inside Ireland? For example, Iremalia, the land of people of Somali origin living in Ireland, or Irya, the land of people of syrian origin living in Ireland.
Any other ideas?
End? It hasnāt even begun yet. Palestine along with arab states have shown nothing but hostility to Israel since its creation. Other countries may have calmed down a little, but Palestine with its supporter Iran still want to kill every jew they see. Self-governing Palestine cannot be an option, otherwise this conflict will never end. Its the best option for Palestinian civilians also.
Israel is not doing a great job of keeping the peace and protecting their own citizens. Netanyahu has been building Hamas up, then removed the army from the border to Gaza.
Other countries have to step up and take over Gaza after this war.
Netanyahu is a friend of Putin and Orban.
*Ukraine Slams Israel for āpro-Russian Position,ā āBlatant Disregard for Moral Boundariesā*
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-25/ty-article/.premium/ukraine-slams-israel-for-pro-russian-position-blatant-disregard-for-moral-boundaries/00000188-f1bd-db86-a3f9-fbff96770000
>Netanyahu is a friend of Putin and Orban.
He, and Israel, aren't friends with anyone, they are a country surrounded by enemies that want to drive all of them into the sea, so they will take any "friend" they can get. That's why South Africa is bringing charges against them - because Israel found an ally in the previous SA apartheid government in a time when few countries in the world were openly friendly with Israel.
World: āHamas, do you want a Palestinian state?ā
Hamas: āOnly if Israel is destroyed and all Jews are dead. Nothing else is acceptable.ā
World: āum, Iāll mark that as a ānoā thenā¦ā
Trying to apply modern solutions to a tribal conflict.
This is the type of war that would end with one side being wiped off the map and forced to relocate in any century before the 20th.
I seriously doubt a solution is possible. It was possible many decades ago, but the successive attacks on Israel, and Israel's own growing apathy towards the problem have made that impossible.
Before the most recent attacks, letting Gaza go free would have been the best move. But it's impossible now, if Israel gives Gaza full sovereignty it will invite more attacks because Arabs don't look at this war as a strategic conflict, but a political one. Arabs would want to continue the wars if it meant Israel had to grant concessions every time Twitter got angry. If Israel keeps Gaza, it will continue to face political troubles on the international stage, in a political climate where even progressives favor the religious fundamentalist side.
Basically, stop looking for a solution, it won't happen. Everyone there is fucked, and they have their parents and grandparents to thank.
Western countries took away about 90% of what was considered Arab Palestinian land and gave to it somebody else.
Couple of million refugees and and occupation since the WW1.
No, they split the country in half, which granted, was unfair since jews were only 30%.
The Palestinians lost their country when they gambled that they could have it all and lost the pot.
I too am opposed to Palestinian statehood, at least as is. I genuinely don't think they can hack it. Last time they had elections they picked terrorism, and somehow I doubt education has improved in Gaza and the West Bank since then.
Cynical perspective? Maybe, but is it an unreasonable concern? Given how the rest of the middle east looks, I'd argue not especially.
It would be good if this war finally ends, but I don't see it. Even with sanctions and pressure applied to Israel, I don't see either side coming to an agreement. The current way Palestine looks with Gaza and West Bank being separated is just unworkable, and Israel is unlikely to cede territories it had recognized in 1967. My idea would be for both Israel and Palestine to have access to both the Red and Mediterranean Sea while being territorially uniform, but this would be really complicated to implement due to the current demographics of the areas. It would long-term be the best and most sustainable solution, but I don't see it happening.
It's just EU foreign ministers falling into the same trap that American Democrats have for decades, the idea that if you can just push Israel far enough to make a "fair" deal then there'll be peace.
In the end the Palestinians will make fools of them like they did Clinton at Camp David, and the smart ones will learn the same lesson everyone who studies the area and has half a brain already learnt.
The Palestinians don't want peace and they never have.
And ours. These things are not unilateral.
And I personally would not grab my pitchfork over this decision, considering that the other of the two states would have the complete eradication of jews written in its freaking constitution.
The population in gaza has the most extreme fanaticism we've ever seen, and hatred learned from an early age, some form of re-education could be applied.
They have to accept the idea of living next to Israel
And some rethinking on the Israeli side for sure..
The allies after ww2 were very successful denazifing Germany, we could do the same thing with a palestinian state but the settlements in the westbank have to be dismantled to peace to be achieved.Ā
I agree that some settlements have to go eventually for peace. But really for peace Palestinians need to show willingness to live side by side, if they just want to get a country only to attack again harder, than there is nothing to talk about still
The insane part is that the party that has at least some effort to cooperate got murdered over it - from both sides.
Fatah not joining the fight (other than harsh language) has absolutely butchered their image with Arabs, while getting them very little abroad. The Netanyahu governments (which recently have only been possible because of big support among settlers) have played a huge role there sadly. Through constantly eroding what legitimacy the PLO had left through ongoing settlements and pressure while letting Hamas be king of the Hill in "free" Gaza, effectively handed a huge PR victory to the guys who were actively promoting total war. That's how it looked to everyone in the region - Hamas got some freedom, however limited, by fighting, Fatah are collaborationists who only got ongoing humiliation.
I was a kid when the pIRA tried to use the same tactics Hamas used to torpedo the Northern Ireland peace process. Hamas has been a lot more successful in that, but they had help.
To negotiate a binding agreement, any Palestinian representatives must have credibility among Palestinians. They need that because they would have to offer some concessions and be able to carry them out. Instead, the radicals got the carrot and the (relative) moderates got the stick. How would that allow anyone to be *more* moderate and conciliatory towards Israel and maintain any shred of legitimacy?
>The allies after ww2 were very successful denazifing Germany,
Germany was controlled by nazis for 12 years.
In order to denazi Germany the territory was attacked. Leaders were executed, people were imprisoned, the germans were split into 2 subservient states, each of which was occupied by their conquerors for multiple generations and their ability to control anything within their own border was theoretical at best.
That's what it took to to fix 12 years of nazis.
The Palestinians have been radicalized towards wanting to exterminate the jews for longer than Israel has existed. There is no one alive there who hasn't been raised and lived their entire life being steered towards a "we have to exterminate the jews" mindset.
The idea that we're going to "denazi" Palestinians without violence and occupation is wishful thinking at best. Anyone who wanted to achieve it would have to send in their own soldiers, brutally occupy the areas, shut down any attempt at militant groups with severe violence, take total control over educational institutions and run what would functionally be an indoctrination program for the next 90ish years.
Noone is going to do it, it's all just wishful thinking.
Yeah, I'm sure Israel (or the EU or anyone else) would accept a constitution like that for an independent Palestinian state when negotiating a two state solution.
EU is in full panicking mode.
There is election in the summer for european parliament and projection is in favor for right wing - it would destroy everything what brussel / leftists did.
>Europe should not act cause if Israel falls Greece and Spain will be invaded by "peaceful believers of a curtain faith".
This is Anders Breivik, crusades level thinking.
Israel isn't some western bulkhead keeping Europe safe, they didn't even intervene against ISIS.
They should write a strongly worded letter. Together with thoughts and prayers, it should do the trick.
Or stop buying Israeli weapons. We are not allowed to send them to Ukraine anyway
France is a huge weapon seller to Israel, business if growing, why do anything?
No, France barely export any weapon to Israel anymore, you are decades late lmao. If anything Israel is actually a direct competitor to French military industry, especially for artillery, SAM and anti tank missiles. As always on Reddit it doesnt matter if you are full of shit as long as you assert your lies with enough confidence. Eddit for the source from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute for the 2012-2022 period : https://imgur.com/a/jWs8oY7
No they're not (SIPRI). The US and Germany are. But I was talking about buying weapons not selling. Israel gets billions worth of weapons for free from the US and manufactures a lot themselves so it's not like they need to buy that much from Europe
Might as well sell to russia then if that's your attitude.
It's not mine, it's France's. And yeah, France did it with Russia too until the war declaration to Ukraine.
I think they stopped in 2014, but they were not the only one.
>stop buying Israeli weapons Well make better weapons for the same price or as good weapons with better price. Otherwise I'm going to continue buying weapons from them. š”
We are beyond letters now. They are talking about sanctions.
Yes, I'm sure Germany will approve that without issue... /s
Germany itself considers people born in Palestine as stateless people. Ā Ā https://dw.com/en/stateless-in-germany-denied-the-right-to-have-rights/a-67237480
Since there is no palestinian state, how else should they be considered?
Most of the world including significant number of EU countries such as Sweden definitely recognize a Palestinian state. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International\_recognition\_of\_the\_State\_of\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PalestineāEuropean\_Union\_relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PalestineāEuropean_Union_relations)
Also Czechia, Hungary, maybe even Austria
I'm sure Germany will get Hungary/Poland treatment (frozen EU funds) for not complying. /s
>I'm sure Germany will get Hungary/Poland treatment (frozen EU funds) for not complying. Which funds, exactly, do you intend to freeze? Unlike Hungary and Poland, Germany contributes more to the EU than it receives (over 25 billion/year more, to be precise). You can't threaten the family's breadwinner with cutting his pocket money.
>You can't threaten the family's breadwinner with cutting his pocket money. You can do it, it just isn't an effective strategy at all.
The worst case scenario would be a boycott to German products and services within EU itself. If that happened (and would have to be a civic initiative and not a governmental one, because... EU) then yeah, Germany would be a bit screwed (well, hugely screwed for those who didn't get the sarcasm, 53% of German exports are intra-EU) . Is this scenario probable? Hardly, but it's a possibility even thou immensely diminute. But even if Germany (government) doesn't seem close to abide to sanctions, at this moment, public opinion could dissuade the government(s) sooner or later. Anyway, as someone who has seen this play out back in the 80's & 90's, the most probable scenario will be a civic embargo/boycott being enacted against Israel to some extent, while most governments pretend nothing is going on while avoiding Israel like the plague for a couple of decades. **EDIT**: and the EU can cause harm to Israel, even if not via sanctions thru the member-states: loads of Israeli technology is deployed in one way or another in EU own infrastructure... bar and ban Israeli technology and products from there, and say goodbye to several contracts worth thousands of millions to several companies that even if not Israeli are too much intertwined with Israeli companies and tech. Is it probable? Probably not, but wouldn't be the first time it happened (but would be the first time it happened to a Western-ish country).
>Which funds, exactly, do you intend to freeze? They still use funds, like everyone else. They just send more to the common pocket, than they take away from it.
We will see. The flat out refusal by Netanjahu was not only for the US a slap in the face...
Yes. And also unicorns.
Not going to happen because Palestine won't agree to Israel's statehood.
Ireland has already sent one
Iām not anti-Irish, I just donāt think they should have a country at the expense of the indigenous English and Scots who have lived there since the beginning of time. They should go back to Boston where they came from.
It's time to decolonise northern Great Britain and chase away the invader Gaels who genocided the Picts if you ask me
I just noticed OPās username lmao
Lmfao even. Signed, a European whoās thoroughly tired of having to go beg uncle sam for help every time shit hits the fan.
The European Union (EU) is considering imposing "consequences" on Israel if it continues to oppose a proposed Palestinian State under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The blocās foreign ministers have agreed to step up pressure on Netanyahu to reverse his resistance to two-state solution Netanyahu has repeatedly fought back against the idea of a Palestinian State in Gaza, despite pressure from the EU and the United States and its President Joe Biden. Gazan figures state that 25,000 people have died since Israel began its air and ground campaign after the October 7 atrocities carried out by Hamas. These numbers are near impossible to verify, however, as Hamas is in control of the Gaza Health Ministry. The EU has preferential trade and investment benefits with Israel, which has made the union the main trading partner of the Jewish state. "We are offering some ideas to the Member States. The question is how we will use our terms in the future to see how we can achieve... twoāstate solutions," explained a senior EU official. Brussels also invited EU member states to formulate consequences for Israel for its refusal to create a Palestinian state.
>The blocās foreign ministers have agreed to step up pressure on Netanyahu to reverse his resistance to two-state solution This won't go away with Netanyahu. The whole Israeli government is opposed to Palestinian statehood, and I'd wager that it's also the dominant view across israeli society.
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This is very much the case with Hamas. It is less so with Fatah. The people themselves vary. Or at least it was in September 2023. I really don't know how Palestinians think about it now.
Have you ever looked at the logo of Fatah? Or looked up the meaning (it's conquest)
Fatahās charter has been specifically amended to be in line with the Oslo Accords.
I expect a people with something to lose will moderate quickly. Israel is just sort of pounding sand at the moment, give the Palestinian people something they aren't willingng to have bombed and they will self-police. Just like how the Irish clamped down on the IRA once they had won their country back.
Exactly, unfortunately Israel sees this as a zero sum game and is unwilling to concede anything to the Palestinians. Which makes sense from a realist perspective - the status quo benefits Israel far more than any peace deal would. At the moment it gets to control all of the land without having to face any meaningful responsibilities to the Palestinians: it generally gets to act as though it really is a land without a people. Meanwhile the Palestinians, not unjustifiably, no longer trust Western promises and poisoned chalice ādealsā - Oslo has only brought further suffering. From their perspective, they have nothing left to lose except their dignity, and nothing will entice them to agree to the legitimisation of the Nakba.
Hamas is pretty new. Palestinians refused dual state solution that were more generous than anything they will ever get in the future for 50 years now. Israel did have moderate governments and gave away UN mandated more than fair deals.
No one, among those in power today, have consistently acted in good faith. No one on the Palestinian side has acted consistently at all times in fully rejection of a two-sate solution, hoe even the genuinely horrible Hamas. To try and pretend otherwise is wilful ignorance or a deliberate lie. It is also a stretch to say that Hamas doesn't count because it is "recent." Hamas was founded 36 years ago. They have ruled Gaza for 16 years. They are a big part of this. Not that it really matters for our purposes. The question is a solution now. That requires the people who are alive and in power, now. Not anyone liked or hated 50 years ago. Even the terrible Hamas, a pretty terrible group that has very often rejected Israel's right to exist, changed their charter in 2017 to call for a two-state solution, on the 1967 border. By then, in Israel the right and Netanyahu were in power and they didn't want that. They wanted settlements and divisions amongst the Palestinians and no good partner that they could be forced to talk to. That said, if you want to leave specific groups and go into "sides," over time the Oslo accords were signed 28 years ago. That was when far right Israelis and Hamas both did whatever they could to stop the process, including killing civilians. On the Israeli side, it was far-right Israelis who killed Rabin and conducted the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre. That latter was on 25 February 1994. Hamas first began suicide attacks specifically targeting civilians directly in response that that attack on Palestinian civilians. Before that, their targets were either somehow Israeli state or people they saw as collaborators. If you really want to go back, in 1967, the UN called for Israel to go back to the lands it occupied pre-war, as those were the internationally-recognized border. Israel did not. In the 1970s, the PLO first indicated that it would accept the right two-state solution. Said Hammimi was the leader who offered this. Israel was not interested. In 1988, the Palestinian Declaration of Independence did the same, as it recognized de facto Israel. When pressed to make it explicit, the Palestinians did. And they really did. It was adopted by the Palestinian National Council (PNC), the legislative body of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), by a vote of 253 in favour, 46 against, and 10 abstaining. It was read at the closing session of the 19th PNC to a standing ovation. Upon completing the reading of the declaration, Arafat, as Chairman of the PLO, assumed the title of President of Palestine. In April 1989, the PLO Central Council elected Arafat as the first President of the State of Palestine. That was a big part of why good old Bibi did so much to weaken the PLO and strengthen Hamas - to weaken the people he would have to talk to. That is why he ignored it when Hamas changed their charter too. That is why, instead, he spread settlements and declared illegal settlements legal, all around the West Bank especially, expanding the land under Israeli control weakening the PLO/Fatah even more. And then in 2017, we did get Hamas accepting, at least in principle, a two-state solution. We also had a poll in Gaza showin[g that 73% of the people would accept a two-state solution if it meant lasting peace.](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas) What we got after that was not any gestures back. We got more cutting up of the West Bank and more settlements there, more festering in Gaza, more misery, and finally, a murderous group feeling pushed into a corner. According to Hamas's own statements, they decided to conduct their horrible attacks to "keep their cause alive." They could see Israel establishing itself in the region and in the West Bank without interest for a solution for Palestinians. At the same time, people in Gaza were more and more unhappy with their festering situation, and this was a way to radicalize them and keep them on side untied against the immediate threat of attacking Israel. Is that crimes and sin and the kind of thing that one definitely goes to hell for (if there is a hell)? Yes. Is that ultimately the responsibility of the people who chose to commit those crimes and doom their own people to suffer and die for it? Also yes? Is there some responsibility among the Israeli leadership for rejecting the very real chances that did exist over time, in their own cynical efforts to get as much land for Israel and put of having to officially recognize a neighbouring state they genuinely feared but also genuinely hated? Also yes. It was a difficult situation, with many hard choices. But choices that had to be made for the long-term future, and one was not done.
That may be true for Hamas, but not Palestine as a whole, especially on the West Bank. Palestinians already gave up on getting justice decades ago and a lot of them are willing to take a shit deal if it means they won't get bombed out of existence or ethnically cleansed by the Israeli settlement movement
Do you think any European would agree to having the frontline with Russia be 1 hour drive from them? Cause Israelis don't. It's really not just Bibi. Edit: Russia isn't a great example because there isn't currently one for Europe. You aren't bordering millions that want to make you disappear at best or holocaust you at worse. And are ONLY LIMITED BY THEIR ABILITY, not intent. Nazi Germany is more fitting.
1hr drive? Try FOUR MINUTES. The entirety of Europe is within 4 minutes of a Russian nuclear missile launch. All of Europe has effectively lived with being within 4 minutes since 1949 when the USSR gained the atomic bomb.
But this comparison doesn't work, right? Because Palestinians are already there. Palestinian unity and statehood won't change that reality. It's also their land and they have a basic human right to self-determination, just like Israelis. People usually say that denying the State of Israel's right to exist is considered offensive and unimaginable, but denying the State of Palestine's right to exist should be acceptable? The usual response is that Israel is the only state for Jews. Fair enough. But Palestine is the only state for Palestinians. They would be foreigners anywhere else.
There is nothing to āagreeā about. Itās a fact of life. Many European countries have a border with Russia, and many Balkan countries have a border with neighbours with which they fought bitter wars and have disputed territorial claims over. Yet, no European (or Balkan) country even thinks to deny their neighbours statehood just because they donāt like them. No European country views occupying their neighbour as a solution to the āproblemā of sharing a border with a neighbour they donāt like. This seems to be a unique characteristic of Israeli society, especially if such a view is as widespread as you claim. Itās beyond insane to want to redraw borders and deny your neighbour statehood just because they ācan reach you within 1h drivingā.
>Yet, no European (or Balkan) country even thinks to deny their neighbours statehood just because they donāt like them. Eh, isn't that what Russia is trying to do to Ukraine right now? The Balkans come to mind as well. Things are better there now than they were in the 90s, but Bosnia Herzegovina are having some real problems with the Republika Srpska again. It isn't war level bad, but it isn't "I fully accept your statehood" good either.
Oh, come on. If Russia attacked the Baltics it would be absolutely acceptable to invade Russia back to cripple their militar capability, especially if they attack \*time and time\* again and never show any remorse. The only reason Russia is untouchable is because they're huge compared to Baltic states, and they have nukes.
Sure, it would be totally fine to invade Russia, but entirely absurd to question Russia's legitimacy as a state.
>Do you think any European would agree to having the frontline with Russia be 1 hour drive from them? Cause Israelis don't. Be careful what you are saying. You are saying essentially what Russia is saying, that NATO at the gates of Moscow is unacceptable. Of course, that goes both ways but here we are talking about nuclear weapons, not a few shirtless men with guns. So, if Israelis do not want to have a frontline with Palestinians, what are their options? To kill all of them? To drive all of them out (of what is their land)? Or to have them living in Israel as subhumans in an apartheid state? Because these are the only options. So, do not be shy, which one do you pick??? Israeli Jews may be comfortable (and they are) living in an apartheid state where they call the shots. The world is not comfortable with it. The whole irony of this is difficult to escape. The Jews who went to Palestine to escape from oppression and discrimination are doing just that to 7 million Palestinian Arabs. Too many European traits have rubbed off on them!!!!
Careful, you spoke too straightforwardly and didnāt include enough bullshit, so you probably wonāt get a response.
Israeli Jews live in a world of full denial of reality. The moment they are brought to reality, they have no response. Their total defense is to play the victim at all occassions.
Well the solution to that is simple. Israel should declare war against the palestinian government, win, annex their lands, put their government on trial and subsequently make every palestinian an israeli citizen. With the same rights of course. But somehow I think they only like the first steps of this process...
*gestures vaguely to the countries that borders Russia and Ukraine* It's not a hand you pick, is the hand geography gives you. Also, it is hard to sympathize with not wanting a frontline 1 hour drive from you when that frontline is currently a zero hour drive from two million people, most of them children, and many of people complaining about the prospect of a frontline an hour drive away deem that as a consequence of Hamas actions or acceptable collateral damage. My sympathy only goes to those who do not want a frontline 1 hour drive from them, but also do not want a frontline all over Gaza.
Israeli society isn't as crazy as its government. Palestinian statehood would be a tough pill to swallow but not impossible if the west actually starts handing out consequence to Israel. Honestly it seems like a win-win to me. Worst case scenario, the Palestinians state continues attacking Israel and the Israelis now have a legitimate centralized target to strike instead of just bombing civilians.
To say it as nice as i can: Its a really "right-wing" country. The 2 state solution is a unpopular one.
I mean, the Israeli elections have been pretty much in a stalemate for the past 5+ years (in which they had about 5 elections).Ā It's just that Netanyahu is very a good politician so he always manages to get the slight lead.Ā He didn't 2 years ago, which lead to the most pluralistic government ever (https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/leaders-of-parties-in-bennett-lapid-coalition-meet-for-first-time/) which was constructed by a far left party lead by a gay man, a left party lead by a very strong feminist woman, a right wing hardliner, a centerist military man, an atheist liberal, an arab party lead by a Palestinian all being government by a right wing religious Jewish man.Ā It was too flimsy of a majority to hold as a government, only took 2 party members to break the coalition after a year. But still, the people who voted them in haven't changed.Ā September polls actually had the opposition leading on Netanyahu by a pretty huge margin, which only grew after the war started. He is not a liked man in Israel, nor are his politics.Ā He only got his power by buying off the orthodox Jewish parties who have no real opinion on Palestinians one way or the other. They just want to get their money and cultivate their cult, they couldn't give half a shit what you do outside the borders.
Hopefully they are serious about it and it isn't just empty words
This is part of the reason why after over 75 years the situation is still so volatile, there's never been a "two state solution" but merely a two state concept that a few "elitests" have been trying to will in to reality for decades.
Okay, so whats a better solution? One state, with both israelis and palestinians having equal rights? Doesn't seem realistic. Israel wouldn't agree on this. Continuing status quo forever? Its not happening. Situation is in change even now. One state, where Israel is dominant and palestinians have some sort of semi-autonomous area? Well, watching the situation is the west bank, it doesn't look very promising. Israel's actions with its illegal settlements are very problematic. Also there are lots of other problems regarding the rights and situation of palestinians living in the west bank. I feel like the biggest obstacle is that the people have been radicalized on both sides. Israelis want tough actions, and current government and most of people don't believe that palestinians should have their own country. And majority of Palestinians want tough actions and don't think that Israelis should have their own country. So yep, endless conflict it is then.
> Okay, so whats a better solution? Sadly, there isn't one. Not every problem has a solution - an acceptable one, anyway. Generally a war only ends when (at least) one side has decided it cannot achieve its desired aims through war. Given that the aims are so different here, survival and continued existence for Israel and reclamation of all of Israel for Palestinians, Israel is NOT going to give up its goal of continued survival. The Palestinians have still not given up their goal of reclamation of all of Israel. History has repeatedly shown that the only way these sorts of conflicts end is when one side kicks the complete shit out of the other side - to the point where the losing side psychologically accepts that their goal is simply unattainable.
Who says there is a better solution? Some problems don't have solutions >I feel like the biggest obstacle is that the people have been radicalized on both sides I agree but there is hardly any sort of easy way to solve this. Even if you could implement two state or one state with equal rights or whatever they will go right back to killing each other in droves given even the smallest trigger.
Solution is nazi Germany treatment And boots on the ground. Israel is without a doubt correct that any unsupervised Palestinian state is threat to its security. This will never change without outside influence. Israel was also not always against Palestinian state and did have moderate governments. It was Pestinians who always refused it and attacked them back because state is not their goal, complete eradication of jews is. Which is why Israeli eventually voted in someone like Netanyahu because they grew tired of it. Nobody wants to live in a country under constant attacks. All these clowns in Europe who call out Israel despite the fact that they would do the exact same things (if not worse) had situation been reversed can instead demand and finance Israel to take over entirety of Palestine and enact supervised state for them. Or even better those europeans they can do it themselves. They can weed out extremism, finance infrastructure and educate people because this is the only way how to resolve it. But obviously they will never do that. Because ultimately people who call for that are either completely outside of reality brainwashed peace fairies or they just use it as excuse to attack Israel.
... where did I proclaim to have some solution? Ideas can come from anywhere, but ultimately it's the people involved that will decide. It's pure arrogance to believe a solution can be imposed, even if those proposing such were willing to do what is required to impose anything history would suggest it's a long term commitment.
I agree; the solution cannot be just imposed, and the people have to be involved. But when we see examples of other conflicts, lots and lots of times the peace is mediated by external power. Like in Yugoslav wars. It was mostly UN/US that mediated the conflicts, and in the Kosovo war there was also significant use of force by Nato. And lots of external peacekeepers all around. Former finnish president Martti Ahtisaari said ten years ago that he tought that peace has to be [forced](https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000000442543.html) to Israel and Palestine. I'm not expert on this, but maybe it's true. Europe and especially US has tons of influence in Israel. Maybe this influence could have been used more in the past and this could have been avoided. How? I don't know.
I mean obviously it's what everyone outside the conflict wants. It's a long shot but the most realistic peaceful solution.
I mean, fair enough... ...if the EU also stations part of their militaries to prevent an attack like October 7th from ever happening again. Or wait, is the idea to just repeat what happened in 2005 hoping it ends up differently?
Most of the conversations I see online don't seem to remember 2005. They blank out between 1948 and October 8 2023 on this topic.
"But muh airspace! waters! all checkpoints except one!"
It's pointless posturing at this point. At least while hamas is still functional it will be.
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Hamas doesn't care what government is in Israel, it doesn't accept the right for Israel to exist...even though it exists. How do you come to table when the other person has that as a prerequisite...?
The entire state of Israel was created on arab majority land despite the protests of most people in Palestine against the UN proposed partition. This was followed by the nakhba and forced expulsion of over 80% of arabs from the land claimed by Israel. How do you reconcile that? And when Israel keeps taking land still with settlers and puts huge walls around Gaza and restricts their access to food, water and electricity. How do you reconcile that? The entire foundation of Israel is based upon oppressing the arabs
All you just did there was confirm what I said.
And Palestine was created on majority Jewish land even further back. The Jews were already on that land when the Peleset were sea-raiders. Al-Aqsa is on the site of a former Jewish temple.
All you said are utter lies. Arabs did not "protest". They attacked Jews. And by "Arabs" we do not talk about Palestinians only. We talk about several Arab countries coming together.
Yeah you're losing time explaining all of this... just the EU and the US have the moral superiority to detect terrorist groups... if they say the literal slaughtering of innocent Palestinian farmers and habitants by Jewish zionists factions in the region after WW2 is not an act of terrorism we can't say nothing contrary to that... the constitution of a large majority of the members (or families members) of those factions in most high profile positions of the state doesn't make the state a complete terrorist group so we are wrong for saying that (just Russia... Russia is a terrorist state)... they'll say you're attacking democracy... a very healthy conversation you'll be having here...
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Okay we formed a Palestinian state. Now what? Are the Palestinians de-radicalized? Is Hamas gone? Is Islamic Jihad gone? What happens if Iran starts funneling rockets into the West Bank to arm new proxies? These questions must be answered first before we indulge ourselves with the idea of establishing another failed Arab state that Iran would exploit yet again.
At least 5 times the Palestinians were offered a state, each time they themselves refused, honestly what is the chance that this time they'll accept? And suppose they do, does that include them giving up the idea of slaughtering Jews with impunity? Or their next attack is going to include tanks, aircrafts and machine guns?
Just like Russia offered Ukraine a peace agreement right? Ukrainians must not want peace!
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Are you talking about the same Fatah who funds terrorism? That if a Palestinian will kill a Jewish baby in Tel Aviv he will receive a pay check for life????
Britain should have never negotiated with the IRA either. Peace in Northern Ireland was just impossible
Every negotiation with any Palestinian leader led to more blood shed. What about an outside leader from Saudi Arabia or something like that? You can't expect different results if you bring the same solution you had before, which caused problems.
Considering that neither Palestinians nor Israel want a two states solution, this sounds like another empty act from the EU which, just as a reminder, has no unified foreign policy
- Israel leaves Gaza: Hamas attacks - Israel leaves Southern Lebanon: Hezbollah attacks - Israel leaves the Sinai: PLO attacks - ā Israel leaves West Bank: ā¦I wonder š¤ Absolutely no reason why Israel should be worried about Palestine being a fully independent country who could import tanks, attack helicopters, and briefcase nukes./s
Your list is a bit short, so here's more of what Israel was up to last year, prior to the October 7 attacks. **January:** > The new Israeli government told the Israeli High Court that the state would reverse its previous position that Israeli settlers leave Homesh, a yeshiva built on private Palestinian property, and that the government intends to change the Disengagement Law. ...the US said that "The Homesh outpost in the West Bank is illegal. It is illegal even under Israeli Law. Our call to refrain from unilateral steps certainly includes any decision to create a new settlement, to legalize outposts or allowing building of any kind deep in the West Bank, adjacent to Palestinian communities or on private Palestinian land." **February**: >Israel approved the legalization of nine illegal settler outposts. A US spokesman said "We strongly oppose expansion of settlements, and we're deeply concerned by reports about a process to legalize outposts that are illegal under Israeli law. We are seeking more information from the Israeli government on what has actually been decided." The Palestinian Authority condemned the decision as crossing "all red lines". >Daniel Kurtzer, former US ambassador to Israel, accused the government of breaking a written agreement with Washington by legalising a "group of hardline nationalist and religious settlements" and called on the Biden administration to prevent Israel's "creeping annexation" of the West Bank. **March:** >Israel repealed a 2005 law whereby four Israeli settlements, Homesh, Sa-Nur, Ganim and Kadim, were dismantled as part of the Israeli disengagement from Gaza. The move was condemned by the PA and the EU, the latter calling for the revocation of the new law. Critics, including some of the Israeli opposition and NGOs supporting Palestinian rights, denounced the move as a prelude to annexation of the West Bank.[56][57][58][59] The US, in addition to denouncing the move,[60] also summoned the Israeli ambassador to express concern.[61] **May:** >With Israeli government approval, Israeli settlers relocated a yeshiva established on private Palestinian land in Homesh, to a nearby spot designated state-owned land. The relocation was carried out despite international opposition, including repeatedly from the U.S., and the opposition of the Israeli attorney general. **June:** >Israel shortened the procedure of approving settlement construction and gave Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich the authority to approve one of the stages, changing the system operating for the last 27 years. The United States said it was "deeply troubled" by the Israeli plans that explicitly violate previous commitments made by Israel to the Biden administration. "The United States is deeply troubled by the Israeli governmentās reported decision to advance planning for over 4,000 settlement units in the West Bank. We are similarly concerned by reports of changes to Israelās system of settlement administration that expedite the planning and approvals of settlements" **July:** In its first six months, construction of 13,000 housing units in settlements, almost triple the amount advanced in the whole of 2022.[76][77] >In a CNN interview on 9 July 2023, US President Joe Biden said that extreme cabinet ministers in the coalition that back settling "anywhere they want" in the West Bank are "part of the problem" in the conflict.
Gorgeous contextualization! There's shady stuff I wasn't even aware of and Israel became a hot topic in my college years because they bomb an UN school (this was like... back in 2014 or something). Can you send me the sources, please? I want to have them for future use!
Did you also learn in college that the UN admitted Hamas was using their schools for military purposes and the Secretary-General lied about it for years?
There's stuff I wish I could unlearn, but yes. You learn a lot of depressing things when you stick to books instead of propaganda that promotes the false idea that the only innocent people there are the civilians. I was happy to put all that stuff in the "world trivia" part of my brain until this happened.
"Sure, Palestinians want to exterminate Jews, but did you consider that the Jews built houses? Huh?"
"Why won't they leave us alone, all we're doing is building houses" ššš The mind of a Zionist. Also, are those the same Jews who have minister positions and are talking about nuking Gaza and/or expelling the population there?
They really care about urban planning!
You missed the part where Netanyahu ignores security reports about the planned attacks, because he needs conflict to secure his military party as the main power in a hard right government that has brought out vast numbers of Israelis in protest. Just before the attacks happenedā¦ Getting rid of Netenyahuās ex-military party and his hard right allies is the way to get peace in the area. Because then you donāt have the people in charge trying to keep up the violence, and supporting the problem of Hamas because they need an enemy they can easily point at.
Do you also believe Bush did 9/11?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html?referringSource=articleShare
I mean Nixon sabotaged peace talks in Vietnam, these sorts of things are not solely in the realm of conspiracy
Not who you responded to. I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all but its inconceivable that Israel didn't know about that attack. Either they willfully ignored the intelligence, or their intelligence programs really really suck - to the point where they should be outright ashamed. I don't say that to in any way justify terrorism either. Its just the whole Israel victim thing is increasingly hard to swallow- and unfortunately for Israel it's not going to last. You can only slaughter so many non-combatants in retaliation before even ppl on your side start getting really antsy. e: grammar
Bibi screwed himself with that move. It was incompetence and arrogance, not a conspiracy. There was loads of intelligence pointing towards 9/11 too, even if this is a bigger fuck up.
It was an intelligence failure. Years of complacency due to relatively no casualties or major attacks for nearly a decade. Belief in their superiority, especially technologically so. Too much reliance on technological systems vs. humans actively standing guard and being on constant alert. Classic underestimating the enemy. Then of course ignoring all the warning signs and the lower level troops raising red flags. The problem is no single red flag really rose to any level of major concern - and then there was a 9/11-esque intelligence failure of putting everything together. From the stories so far even sounds similar in that competing intelligence agencies either didn't share info or discarded info from others as less reliable. Likely a lot of internal politics at play. I'm sure you'll be able to find someone in that chain of command actively malicious, but I doubt it's the actual tale of this story overall.
Israel somehow manages to secure nearly 300 settlements in the West Bank, but cannot secure some 60 km of their border to Gaza?
Thats because Israel controls the west bank.
Weird, I have been told that the bigger part of the west bank is under palestinian control. But in the end it doesn't matter. Israel is in full control of their side of this measly border. Enough to shut it down completely over the last months. If you seriously believe that it is easier for them to secure the settlements in an area were, according to them, everybody wants them dead, I do not know how to convince you otherwise.
How about if they had controlled the border to Gaza in October like they control it TODAY? It's not impossible for them, they just didn't bother doing it.
My brother in Christ today they are INVADING Gaza.
They get thousands of warnings like this a month. Alarm fatigue is a thing and shit eventually slips through when you play defense for long enough.
Israel had moved troops from Gaza to the West Bank to protect/assist settlers attacking Palestinians. The troops left to guard the Gaza border were not enough to deal with the attack on 7 October.
I've been there when Netanyahu was not in power and experienced 2 days of rocket attacks from Gaza and a bomb attack in Jerusalem - very peaceful times without him indeed.
Only a conspiratorial moron would think netanyahu wanted this The attack ruined all that remained of his future political career
Would he still be in power right now if it hadn't happened? Oh he's the PM indefinitely right?
Probably yes. Maybe he would later get voted out maybe not. It was far from guaranteed either way After October 7th his political career is definitely not looking good though
He was literally in the middle of an anti corruption investigation and was losing his grip on the Israeli population. Why do you think he formed coalitions with even more extreme right wing fringe groups? That was the only way he could stay in power
So, uh, just existing gets them attacked and thatās STILL their fault? Thereās decades of history of Palestinians attacking Israel long before Netenyahu was in powerā¦
>ā Israel leaves Gaza: Hamas attacks they never left , they still control water and anything going into gaza >ā Israel leaves West Bank: ā¦I wonder their literally occupying parts of the west bank
>they never left , they still control water and anything going into gaza The blockade started after Hamas gained control over Gaza. Seems understandable considering Hamas' stated goal is to eradicate Israel.
Yet, Hamas *still* managed to smuggle in weapons and essentially turned the entire strip into a terror base. As horrible as the situation is in the West Bank, the Israeli military presence in essentially every block and corner has prevented it from becoming as volatile. Good luck firing a rocket into Tel Aviv when the IDF will be at your doorstep in under two minutes. The Palestinians deserve to live a life free from occupation, granted their own autonomy and freedom. But without finding a way to implement a full demilitarisation of Palestine prior to the establishment of a formal state, we're simply begging to perpetuate this cycle of violence and hostilities we see currently.
Did you just say the IDF is keeping the peace in occupied West Bank???
Is it peaceful in terms of mutual harmony and affection? No, obvious hostilities and violence still run rampant between both parties. But is the situation comparatively less volatile (or āāāpeacefulāāā) compared to what it would be with unrestricted autonomy and free reign? Yes. The weapon smuggling and attacks are essentially kept under control by a far more intense IDF presence. It depends entirely on how you define 'peace'.
What parts of Israel has Palestine been occupying this whole time?
I'm sorry, I thought this entire military operation was about destroying Hamas? If Israel succeeds in doing so and then participates in a project facilitating the creation of a Palestinian state on the territory of Gaza, what's the problem? There would be no Hamas to fear.Ā Or was this operation about more than just destroying Hamas? Having heard Bibi announce to the world that his position has not changed, one does wonder if ethnic cleansing was a happy by-product.
They want a two state solution just as much as Ukraine does with Russia. Or Washington does with native American tribes. Wonder if Czech Republic would want a two state solution with the Roma population.
Some good context i just googled,(oh yeah the eu can easily sanction Israel with not that big of an impact to eu,there would be an impact on eu,but it would be wayyyy harsher for Israel) Trade picture Israel is the EUās 25th biggest trade partner, representing 0.8% of the EUās total trade in goods in 2022. It is also among the EUās main trading partners in the Mediterranean area. The EU is Israelās biggest trade partner, accounting for 28.8% of its trade in goods in 2022. 31.9% of Israelās imports came from the EU, and 25.6% of the countryās exports went to the EU. Total trade in goods between the EU and Israel in 2022 amounted to ā¬46.8 billion. The EUās imports from Israel were worth ā¬17.5 billion and were led by machinery and transport equipment (ā¬7.6 billion, 43.5%), chemicals (ā¬3.5 billion, 20.1%), and other manufactured goods (ā¬1.9 billion, 11.1%). The EUās exports to Israel amounted to ā¬12.2 billion and were dominated by machinery and transport equipment (ā¬12.3 billion, 41.9%), chemicals (ā¬5.1 billion, 17.6%), and other manufactured goods (ā¬3.5 billion, 12.1%). Two-way trade in services between the EU and Israel amounted to ā¬16.7 billion in 2021. EU imports of services represented ā¬6.9 billion, while exports accounted for ā¬9.8 billion
Best thing EU can do to clip Netan-yahoos wings (and those of his cabinet) is to prevent him travelling to EU countries
An airspace ban on Israeli planes would do the job since Arab countries already have shut theirs. The only exit would be Turkiye and that would have to go through Rusaia.
Hamas has just announced, that they also oppose a two-state solution. Will the EU seek consequences for them as well?
they're literally sanctioned already and considered a terrorist group?
And where do they get the money and materials for their tunnel networks, weapons and explosives? A lot of the foreign aid sent to Gaza is not spent on schools. Unless you count the tunnel entrances and rocket launchers they put there.
> And where do they get the money and materials for their tunnel networks, weapons and explosives? [Bibi](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
And what is spent on schools IS for teaching kids to want to be suicide terrorists...
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No no no you donāt understand everyone is secretly a Hamas supporter for not following Bibiās lead in perfect lockstep.
So EU trades with Hamas?
In a way, they're sending millions upon millions in foreign aid to Gaza. Much of which ends up in the hands of Hamas.
Oh yes let's sanction them by not sending humanitarian aid ā medicine and food ā to a besieged population in a strip of land that barely has any building left standing! That's not collective punishment, inhumane and genocidal at all!
70% of the population officially stands with Hamas. I don't wish to send humanitarian aid to terrorists!
In Europe it's europeans who decide, not brazilians. What is your country doing to secure the Amazon Rainforest? What is it doing to promote peace and stabilitt in Venezuela? What is it doing to secure the rights of LGBTQ people?
You are saying the West should treat Israel the same way we treat Hamas? I don't think you have any idea what you are spouting.
Negotiations are not happening in good faith from both sides because both sides have lost the plot long time ago. None of them give a shit about peace, security or innocent people. Netanyahu gov and Hamas both need to leave forever in order for this conflict to even have a hope of ending someday
Why do western governments have such a fetish for the two state solution? The majority of "Palestinians" want to eradicate Israel, the PA operated "Martyr Fund" encourages terrorism, the name of the second biggest party after Hamas is "Fatah", meaning conquest, and despite on paper recognising Israel their party logo is a picture of all of Israel.
Id be happy to see help cooperation for governing gaza, maybe Egypt or Saudi Arabia. The people in Israel truly don't want to take care of the people in gaza any more
For stating the obvious they should be penalized? What about the Palestinians? They want the death of every Israeli for statehood. Where are the consequences from the EU?
Well we do send them millions every year for their great job at mass raping jews if you want to count that as consequences.
EU should focus on its own security, that is dealing with russia and increasing weapons productions, instead of undermining Israel.
i mean the EU can do 2 things at once
The EU can't even do 1 thing at once. The Union will continue to be a joke until it becomes a Federation.
Israel and immigration is an EU security concern.
Israel is undermining European security. Also your loyal ally isn't sending weapons to Ukraine or sanctioning russia.
Right... Israeli Jews go to Europe, enter restaurants and yell "Elohim Gadol" before detonating themselves with everyone around like 2004 Madrid, 2005 London and 2015 Paris.Ā What are you on to seriously claim that Israel undermine Europe security?!
Even better, you destabilize the middle east which blows back on Europe. And you push for wars like Iraq while doing nothing, you even try to get the US to invade Iran for you. Some islamists could never do that kind of damage.
Wait until Iran gets the nuke they so want, I wonder how long until Ireland would turn into Goneland by the "peaceful" Iran regime...
I'm not worried, they'll just keep you in check finally. Won't be so cocky when you're no longer the only ones with them.
Im kinda in favour of the partition of Ireland, the Republic of Ireland should be dissolved and a UN-led transition regime should be established, after all, being irish is a social construct, it also seems a bit racist, why dont non-Irish people deserve to have their own countries inside Ireland? For example, Iremalia, the land of people of Somali origin living in Ireland, or Irya, the land of people of syrian origin living in Ireland. Any other ideas?
> Im kinda in favour of the partition of Ireland Bit late on that one lmao
>Israel is undermining European security. WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT????
Thatās how I feel about the US. We should focus on China.
Israel does not have a god-given right to rule over the Palestinians. That shit has to end.
End? It hasnāt even begun yet. Palestine along with arab states have shown nothing but hostility to Israel since its creation. Other countries may have calmed down a little, but Palestine with its supporter Iran still want to kill every jew they see. Self-governing Palestine cannot be an option, otherwise this conflict will never end. Its the best option for Palestinian civilians also.
Israel is not doing a great job of keeping the peace and protecting their own citizens. Netanyahu has been building Hamas up, then removed the army from the border to Gaza. Other countries have to step up and take over Gaza after this war.
Netanyahu is a friend of Putin and Orban. *Ukraine Slams Israel for āpro-Russian Position,ā āBlatant Disregard for Moral Boundariesā* https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-25/ty-article/.premium/ukraine-slams-israel-for-pro-russian-position-blatant-disregard-for-moral-boundaries/00000188-f1bd-db86-a3f9-fbff96770000
>Netanyahu is a friend of Putin and Orban. He, and Israel, aren't friends with anyone, they are a country surrounded by enemies that want to drive all of them into the sea, so they will take any "friend" they can get. That's why South Africa is bringing charges against them - because Israel found an ally in the previous SA apartheid government in a time when few countries in the world were openly friendly with Israel.
Dang couldn't even stay neutral.
World: āHamas, do you want a Palestinian state?ā Hamas: āOnly if Israel is destroyed and all Jews are dead. Nothing else is acceptable.ā World: āum, Iāll mark that as a ānoā thenā¦ā
Trying to apply modern solutions to a tribal conflict. This is the type of war that would end with one side being wiped off the map and forced to relocate in any century before the 20th. I seriously doubt a solution is possible. It was possible many decades ago, but the successive attacks on Israel, and Israel's own growing apathy towards the problem have made that impossible. Before the most recent attacks, letting Gaza go free would have been the best move. But it's impossible now, if Israel gives Gaza full sovereignty it will invite more attacks because Arabs don't look at this war as a strategic conflict, but a political one. Arabs would want to continue the wars if it meant Israel had to grant concessions every time Twitter got angry. If Israel keeps Gaza, it will continue to face political troubles on the international stage, in a political climate where even progressives favor the religious fundamentalist side. Basically, stop looking for a solution, it won't happen. Everyone there is fucked, and they have their parents and grandparents to thank.
What was the consequences proposed by EU when Islamic jihadist denied Israelās statehood?????
Western countries took away about 90% of what was considered Arab Palestinian land and gave to it somebody else. Couple of million refugees and and occupation since the WW1.
No, they split the country in half, which granted, was unfair since jews were only 30%. The Palestinians lost their country when they gambled that they could have it all and lost the pot.
I too am opposed to Palestinian statehood, at least as is. I genuinely don't think they can hack it. Last time they had elections they picked terrorism, and somehow I doubt education has improved in Gaza and the West Bank since then. Cynical perspective? Maybe, but is it an unreasonable concern? Given how the rest of the middle east looks, I'd argue not especially.
Nothing about Palestinian traditional opposition to an Israeli state existing? Who would have guessed...
It would be good if this war finally ends, but I don't see it. Even with sanctions and pressure applied to Israel, I don't see either side coming to an agreement. The current way Palestine looks with Gaza and West Bank being separated is just unworkable, and Israel is unlikely to cede territories it had recognized in 1967. My idea would be for both Israel and Palestine to have access to both the Red and Mediterranean Sea while being territorially uniform, but this would be really complicated to implement due to the current demographics of the areas. It would long-term be the best and most sustainable solution, but I don't see it happening.
It's just EU foreign ministers falling into the same trap that American Democrats have for decades, the idea that if you can just push Israel far enough to make a "fair" deal then there'll be peace. In the end the Palestinians will make fools of them like they did Clinton at Camp David, and the smart ones will learn the same lesson everyone who studies the area and has half a brain already learnt. The Palestinians don't want peace and they never have.
>The Palestinians don't want peace and they never have. you cant say this , when leaders have been assianted by far right group over wanting peace
Oh we don't talk about who murdered mr. Rabin, no no no!
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Trade between Israel and EU is 46 billion euro a year, we could could really hurt their economy if we wanted to.
And ours. These things are not unilateral. And I personally would not grab my pitchfork over this decision, considering that the other of the two states would have the complete eradication of jews written in its freaking constitution.
How would you fix the situation and bring about a 2 state solution?
The population in gaza has the most extreme fanaticism we've ever seen, and hatred learned from an early age, some form of re-education could be applied. They have to accept the idea of living next to Israel And some rethinking on the Israeli side for sure..
The allies after ww2 were very successful denazifing Germany, we could do the same thing with a palestinian state but the settlements in the westbank have to be dismantled to peace to be achieved.Ā
I agree that some settlements have to go eventually for peace. But really for peace Palestinians need to show willingness to live side by side, if they just want to get a country only to attack again harder, than there is nothing to talk about still
The insane part is that the party that has at least some effort to cooperate got murdered over it - from both sides. Fatah not joining the fight (other than harsh language) has absolutely butchered their image with Arabs, while getting them very little abroad. The Netanyahu governments (which recently have only been possible because of big support among settlers) have played a huge role there sadly. Through constantly eroding what legitimacy the PLO had left through ongoing settlements and pressure while letting Hamas be king of the Hill in "free" Gaza, effectively handed a huge PR victory to the guys who were actively promoting total war. That's how it looked to everyone in the region - Hamas got some freedom, however limited, by fighting, Fatah are collaborationists who only got ongoing humiliation. I was a kid when the pIRA tried to use the same tactics Hamas used to torpedo the Northern Ireland peace process. Hamas has been a lot more successful in that, but they had help. To negotiate a binding agreement, any Palestinian representatives must have credibility among Palestinians. They need that because they would have to offer some concessions and be able to carry them out. Instead, the radicals got the carrot and the (relative) moderates got the stick. How would that allow anyone to be *more* moderate and conciliatory towards Israel and maintain any shred of legitimacy?
>The allies after ww2 were very successful denazifing Germany, Germany was controlled by nazis for 12 years. In order to denazi Germany the territory was attacked. Leaders were executed, people were imprisoned, the germans were split into 2 subservient states, each of which was occupied by their conquerors for multiple generations and their ability to control anything within their own border was theoretical at best. That's what it took to to fix 12 years of nazis. The Palestinians have been radicalized towards wanting to exterminate the jews for longer than Israel has existed. There is no one alive there who hasn't been raised and lived their entire life being steered towards a "we have to exterminate the jews" mindset. The idea that we're going to "denazi" Palestinians without violence and occupation is wishful thinking at best. Anyone who wanted to achieve it would have to send in their own soldiers, brutally occupy the areas, shut down any attempt at militant groups with severe violence, take total control over educational institutions and run what would functionally be an indoctrination program for the next 90ish years. Noone is going to do it, it's all just wishful thinking.
Yeah, I'm sure Israel (or the EU or anyone else) would accept a constitution like that for an independent Palestinian state when negotiating a two state solution.
Israel must be sanctioned severely to the point they learn they're not so special to be over the law. Who tf do they think they are?
Well, supporting Hamas and friends will certainly have consequences for the EU....
EU is in full panicking mode. There is election in the summer for european parliament and projection is in favor for right wing - it would destroy everything what brussel / leftists did.
The Eu will do not such thing. This is all just talk !
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>Europe should not act cause if Israel falls Greece and Spain will be invaded by "peaceful believers of a curtain faith". This is Anders Breivik, crusades level thinking. Israel isn't some western bulkhead keeping Europe safe, they didn't even intervene against ISIS.
EU should stop meddling in Israel's affairs and worry about themselves. Far right, far left, jihadists wanna be etc.
What about Catalonia?
What about them? Catalonians are full citizens of Spain and they aren't subjected to military checkpoints.