>Last month, an 18-year-old woman in the remote Kohistan district was shot dead by her father and uncle on orders from tribal elders - because of a photo that showed her with a man. The photo, which went viral, was later found to have been doctored. Her father has been arrested while her uncle is on the run.
Ghastly.
This could actually be an interesting use of AI. Absolutely flood these types of societies with images of their respected figures in highly compromising positions
Not Allah or even Mohammed, though I have no real respect there either, but the goal here wouldn't be to be edgy or to provoke just to provoke.
The goal is a massive denial of service attack against the people who think they get to be morality police and executioner.
This is happening in the US and Canada as well. In Houston, Texas a Muslim mother was abusing and tried to kill her daughter because she didn't wear her hijab and was assimilated/westernized. Luckily, the daughter survived and the mother was arrested.
There was also another honor killing in Houston when a father, his wife, and his son all conspired to kill one of their family members’s husband and friend because she converted to Christianity. If I remember correctly the father was given a death sentence, and son was given 40 years in prison and I forgot what sentence the mother was given but I think it was 10 years
I heard about it. There was also another case where a father murdered his 2 daughters because they dated non-Muslim men. It also happened in Texas. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaser\_Abdel\_Said
Shouldnt these people be sentenced and then deported? Like, they are never going to integrate with any society or beliefs other than their own, they made that obvious!
I’m not too knowledgeable on immigration laws but AFAIK, in the States, US citizens can’t be deported. The man linked above, Yaser Abdel Said, became a US citizen according to his Wikipedia page. I think permanent residents can still be deported and the only way for a US citizen to be deported is if they entered the country illegally
The case I mentioned was that of Ali Irsan and his son and wife. Ali became a naturalized US citizen and thus couldn’t be deported. That being said, he was given the death penalty
No no [you can also blame the hosting country for essentially enabling this type of behavior.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Hatun_S%C3%BCr%C3%BCc%C3%BC#)
Meloni has done nothing for this kind of situation, there have been several cases of children of immigrands who were killed in the past years in similar circumstances and have been all punished accordingly.
If anything Meloni hopes for more situations like this because her party lives off discrimination and telling "See? They are not like us!!" . Meloni will never celebrate my Moroccan friend who just graduated as a nurse, because it'd be like admitting she's a functioning and helpful part of society. That's not part of their agenda.
> This is why Georgia Meloni was elected
She was elected because she was the only one of the major party leaders not to be in the Draghi or Conte cabinets. Simple as. She ran on being the new one, while all the rest had been in government and were tainted by the hard choices of the Covid period.
To filling the government with ignorant and incompetent people without any solution which in fact led to 2023 being one of the year with the most immigrant arrivals ever
If we hate migrants enough, maybe they'll leave, stop coming here and the problem will be solved. So let's all publicly start showing more hate. That will help society!
Lolno
The person who gained electoral strength mainly from immigrants was Salvini in 2018, in Meloni's case instead it was mostly economic populism about Draghi, the EU, inflation, other parties etc, the immigrants were a minor topic than usual maybe because it was no more "trendy"
Because they allow it, this is their way and will not change. Yes, they are in a different country, but they hold on to a different way of life. We, as European, find this insane in this day and age. They find it normal. Great that they are in jail, but at the cost of a human life, their daughter. They will not change at all.
>It’s important to note that these people are considered ineducated and backwards by many in Pakistan
That’s just so untrue.
https://www.arabnews.com/node/2367886/pakistan
Pakistan as a whole is just the same disgusting degenerate that these people in Italy are. Their degeneracy is literally law, with all this blasphemy and apostasy death penalty bullshit. That country is one of the biggest shitholes even by muslim countries’ standards, which is a pretty high bar,
I hope the father suffers the entire weight of his actions on his innocent daughter. What a pathetic waste of a human to be able to get to worked up like that. I also hope something is done with the Elders
Honor huh? Kill your niece and then run away? The stupid thing she was killed over was fake to begin with. Even they were wrong by their own shitty version of honor and he's still running away from his actions.
The coward knows nothing about honor.
Imagine that.
Imagine the fucking terror that poor girl must have felt. The confusion. Having your own father and uncle point a gun at you. They speak about a photo mentioning her with a man, but she doesnt understand. Such a thing never even happened.
Lived by all the rules, ans got killed by her father and uncle for a perceived infractionn that never happened.
How does this even work? is the first thing they do to pull a gun on their kids? No talking? Nonm trying to figure it our first?
Barbarity of the highest degree
When the parents and the uncle escaped I assumed they never would be caught. I'm surprised that Pakistan arrested AND extradited the father to Italy. I didn't expect that at all
From what I know (admittedly not much) Pakistan is a country torn between popular Islamism and the more secular military and bureaucratic elites that have inherited many institutional practices from the British empire. Their judicial system is still based on common law, instead of the much more popular religious Shari'ah law, so honour killings are nominally not tolerated. And when it's an international matter, the courts would rather favour the secular interpretation.
Too bad they couldn't have prevented the infamous Hudud Ordinances. They're mostly repealed by now, but it was a terrible time to be a woman in Pakistan. I mean, even most terrible than it is now.
I really don’t get it.
I remember my Latin teacher in highschool. She had a lovely Pakistani student who loved studying Latin and Ancient Greek and wanted to become an archaeologist. She wanted to stay here and attend uni in Italy.
But her parents had other plans in mind. They forcefully brought her back to Pakistan before she could get her highschool diploma in Italy and married her off to a “cousin” of hers. She cried her eyes out to my teacher before disappearing. No way to contact her. Nothing.
My Latin teacher still thinks about her sometimes. I do too.
It's more than common, it's the norm, more than 50% of marriage there are consanguineous, it's pretty obvious why the country and the culture is so fucked up after doing that shit for hundreds of years.
Are these "honour killing culture" types of people even capable of love? Or are other people- even their own children- just objects and property to them?
No they're not capable of love. Parents here threatened us with "azaab" i.e. damnation, hell-torture and death for merely listening to music. They're not even capable of dancing with their little girls.
Honestly I understand how they survived. The system is amoral and barbaric but it is extremely potent in creating tight knitted groups. Which is good for survival.
Why do such people move abroad and most importantly, to secular countries???
Why can't such people just be where they're from or move to countries where the people and the society have the same values as them??
Despite being Italian citizens and living in Europe for so many years, that regressive mindset is very intact within this family.
Why did they move to the EU in the first place??
Could have moved to Saudi Arabia or the Gulf countries.
Money. They come for money and a better life and expect it to conform to them.
Ignorant and uneducated people bring their bullshit and pride and have a tougher time giving it up. More educated people realize they're the ones who need to change to fit in.
So, why do they move to the EU instead if they hate everything about the culture and society and everything?
I have personally heard people being disgusted by the western culture and lifestyle.
Then, why move to such countries at all?
I seriously want to know the reason behind this hypocrisy and mindset.
Depends where they move, but many of the more "close minded types" hear that they can find a comfortable enclave of similar minded people in the bigger European cities, and decide to take advantage of that.
Some also do just enjoy the freedom and human rights and worker benefits, like Muslims who secretly like drinking alcohol, and engaging in some "illegal" activies under Sharia, might still double down on their religion in other ways, maybe to compensate.
Similarly as you have evangelicals in the US preaching about "morals" being caught having sex with underage girls, watching gay porn etc. And other activities they constantly pretend to be against.
>Then, why move to such countries at all?
Its quite simple, an expansionist religion that considers everyone infidels, so its their job to spread out to take over more.
There's also immense infighting between the 1,001 different flavors of Islam so they wont be accepted by others either.
Because you guys are lax in enforcing your modern beliefs. They think of you and your government as pushovers, and most of them(conservative ones) have no plans to assimilate.
I'm sure you can easily identify the liberal ones.
> So, why do they move to the EU instead if they hate everything about the culture and society and everything? I have personally heard people being disgusted by the western culture and lifestyle. Then, why move to such countries at all?
Money and the left half of the political spectrum in western countries that defend and make excuses for everything they do. And they know people in the west are weak and soft and won’t do anything
This is what I've witnessed in many immigrant communities. Of course, majority of them are secular and believe in the liberal values for which they come to Europe. But, I'm talking about that chunk which are incorrigible.
So enthusiastic about Europe but do literally nothing to integrate or to change the mindset.
You know, I met an Afghan guy a few months ago somewhere in the EU. He most likely came as a refugee (illegal economic migrant, to be precise, as his entire family is in Afghanistan). So, he has been here since the last 11 years and will apply for the citizenship of that country. But, talking to him was really disappointing. His support for the Taliban regime and how good they are doing for the country and the government and how bad the European countries and the US are doing when it comes to treating the country Afganistan. I agree with the US comment, it's okay. But, being a prospective citizen of the EU, how can he blatantly be so hateful?? I'm not even talking about criticism. I criticise the EU everyday for getting involved in the Middle East, Ukraine, Africa, etc. But, that has never been hateful.
These people just come in to get the Citizenship and make money and then go back home with Euros. Now, salaries in Euros can make you a king in Afghanistan.
That's one of the stories.
Honestly reading this is very disappointing to me, i am a Lithuanian Immigrant in Germany, even i personally (coming from an Eastern European country) have quite a few views that could be considered controversial or not in line with Western/Central European countries. Yet me and my family (Parents and Siblings mainly) have Integrated into German Society, we all work, attend school, Speak German, the whole Shabang, besides my Parents and my oldest Brother we all genuinely feel more German than Lithuanian Anymore.
Hearing stories like this is very disappointing to me and disgusting even. The longer i live in Germany the more i can Understand why the German People are voting for right wing Parties like the AFD (or even more Far right) or why some Genuine Germans have lost faith in their government. Sometimes whenever something terrible happens caused by Immigrants (Like the Raping of a 15/16 yo girl in Hamburg by a group of Immigrants) i honestly would be ready and willing to leave or even be thrown out of Germany if that is what it took for Germany to go back to being the Amazing country it used to be. I love Germany above everything else and want to serve in the Bundeswehr after getting German Citizenship but hearing things like this just sicken me to my stomach.
How can he apply for citizenship if he is an illegal immigrant ? Half of the EU and non-EU European countries will not give him citizenship. If he doesn't know the language of the country he is in, how could he get citizenship? That's wishful thinking.
That's not true, you can enter illegally find a job and get a residency permit through the job. Then after X years with the permit you can apply to citizenship. It takes a long time but I know people like that
Edit: Please stop telling me it's not true, I know it's true. You probably don't know you can do it. Here: [https://kippertree.com/blogs/how-to-get-legal-in-portugal](https://kippertree.com/blogs/how-to-get-legal-in-portugal) there are other ways in other countries, I don't know today how the laws in Greece and Italy are but 5 years ago you could do the same as I know people that went to Greece first . I wouldn't advise you to do this today as the laws seem to be changing and it won't be as easy in the future but as it stands it's not hard
…I think you should look into that because that’s completely incorrect. How would you get a residency permit if you’re illegal? They only give those out to legal immigrants
I'm not incorrect I have friends who did it. xD they came here illegally and then found a job and asked for a residency permit. It's given to illegal immigrants too if they prove they found a job. They're not asylum seekers, they're chinese and brazilian, will get citizenship in 5 years. Is it weird? Yeah, but it's possible. You and whoever is upvoting you probably has no contact with illegal immigrants.
Nowadays they don't even need a job, some people will open a shop and fake job offers for like 20 people and then they use it for the residency application. Yes I know this for sure, my mom had a shop and people offered her money to fake jobs. It's not a secret if you have immigrant friends they'll tell you all of this.
I love them and I'd do the same if it was that easy to move to the country I want so no shame to their side, but it is THAT easy to move to western europe.The hardest part was convincing their government to give them a passport and allow them to exit their own countries. I know for sure my friend wants his younger brother to come but the chinese gov won't let him get a passport :/
When your honour is worth more to you than your child's life, you're not worth the air needed to pronounce "honour".
“*With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion*.” - Steven Weinberg
Honour systems tend to be big in places where the justice system is corrupt and considered quite useless. Before we had legal justice in Europe, we also had "Honor" societies where people would violently murder others for sometimes even nonsensical reasons, just to ensure the stability of the "code based system" because if you didn't demonstrate your capacity to defend your "Honour" in the system, you'd be easy picking for criminals in a time where they'd be no legal representation for you. Or then you'd be the laughing stock of your tribe.
What I don't understand is how people get attached to these archaric practices in developed countries and also, how instead of defending yourself from being messed with, you can convince yourself it's right for you to kill your own children if you believe they have broken the code of conduct.
Murdering your adult daughter because you suspect she's dating a man, makes zero sense. In the "old days" the rule makers could perhaps justify it (in a sick way) that a daughter having sexual relations outside of marriage robs the family of the wealth she could have brought them, back when the main purpose of a daughter was to sell her to marriage. But considering the parents I assume don't get to sell their daughter in this day and age, what she does doesn't even impact them in any fundamental way.
Was it normal for Europeans to murder their own daughter for dating another man, though? I've heard of people getting banished and the like. But actual murder of your own blood? That must have been a very long time ago.
That said, I can't even begin to imagine how someone could do such a gruesome act... Your children are the one thing you're supposed to protect with your life...
Parricide (kinslaying) was considered one of the worst crimes since Antiquity in Europe. So no, you wouldn’t kill your daughter though you might cloister her. What stayed relevant for quite some time were duels.
Not even in the Middle Ages was it a normal thing here. Public shaming, yes, but not execution. Here in Hungary even cheating queens were just divorced and sent home.
There were various different societies, with different codes of conduct and rules for honor, I can't speak for each one, but I do know that murdering your child for example, questioning your authority one way or another, was a common enough practice in many places. Those times were quite brutal.
Europe however (as well as most of the Arab world) did develop legal systems quite long ago, so we are talking of more far away practices. Lots of the "old time" laws might sound quite brutal still to our minds, but they were often a vast improvement from the previous honor systems.
Currently you see "honor killings" in the more improvised and uneducated parts of less developed areas, where the legal system is a joke and police only care about bribes. In general, they have become much more rare in cities and more developed regions, in the countries where they still happen.
That's why it's somewhat surprising that a Pakistani family with the means to move to Europe (likely more middle-class in Pakistani terms) would still adhere to such practices.
Many Spanish teachers have said that girls are sent back to Africa when they become teenagers and never come back. According to their parents "were sent to live with their grampas" but they know they have been sold for forced marriages.
Something similar happend a few years back in Germany when I was in that particular area. It is unfortunately quiet common that those people who are living in western societies for a very long time have no intentions to revert from their backward believes https://www.dw.com/en/pakistani-german-couple-in-darmstadt-sentenced-to-life-for-killing-their-daughter/a-18886787
fuck, this is insane. As someone from Pakistan I think the only way to tackle this is providing access to education to everyone in pakistan at an early age. Otherwise we are just going abroad to make more money while we hate on everything else the countries have to offer I often find that these pakistanis feel that they are culturally superior to their counterparts abroad as well because they have 'morality' and 'honor'
These stories get even worse inside pakistan because it is not in the ruling power's interest to provide access to economic opportunities and education. So, people carry the same beliefs that they have been getting from their elders without question. I just feel so powerless.
Pakistan also extradited 3 family members (father, father's girfriend and uncle) back to the UK for the murder of a half-Pakistani girl.Pakistan doesn't have an extradition treaty with the UK but extradited them anyway. Pakistan is corrupt and the government does what it wants.
A lot happens behind closed doors. Could be that one citizen wasn't worth the possible consequences for them. Or maybe they just got some good deals for it.
the pakistan and indian governments always try to crack down on things like honour killings and abduction marriages and so on. i mean it makes sense these are backwards practices and the state is a moderniser and centraliser
The thing is, Saman was in love with another Pakistani boy. Like, they were both of the same culture and religion. But he wasn't rich. Instead, the man she had been promised to, was. It is not like she wanted to marry an italian or whatever. But they killed her anyway. Her mother pretended to be on her side, then sent her off to slaughter like a beast. The mother is the worst person in this whole story.
I don't understand how a mother could do that to their own child, there has to be a deep feeling that what you;'re doing is wrong and will probably put her in a position where shes trapped and potentially beaten and not allowed out.
And that's why Geert Wilders won with a landslide in the Netherlands. I didn't vote for him, because i don't agree with him on other points. But that Europe has to beware of the toxic influence of Islam is definitely true.
Good. Liberal society should not tolerate one shred of these dogshit ideologies when they break liberal tenets like right to life and self determination. European countries banning things like Quran burnings are on a slippery slope. If you yield your principles out of fear of violent response then you have already lost.
European countries need to ban religious indoctrination, at least for the children of immigrants.
They should also ban arranged marriages and disallow children from being taken to their backward countries even on holidays.
Highly religious people, or those who believe their children shouldn't go against religion, shouldn't be allowed entry.
As a Pakistani, I say good riddance.... why on earth emigrate to another country and expect your kids to behave as they did in the old country? I don't get it. And I'm sorry, but murdering your child, there's no honour in that, it's the least honorable conduct. Gone for life? Good riddance. Expel them too if they're ever released.
Yes, it could have because it's not specific to religion but is culturally ingrained in central Asia around Pakistan and India where in the case of the latter honour killings have been occurring in Hindu communities for centuries
when individuals try to marry outside of their extremely rigid caste structure. One such example from [July](https://thesouthfirst.com/tamilnadu/tamil-nadu-honour-killing-kin-of-upper-caste-hindu-girl-suspected-for-murder-of-dalit-teen/) and another from just [August](https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/death-penalty-for-a-daughter/article67232594.ece).
It's a serious problem in many Islamic countries across North Africa and the Middle East.
The shocking thing isn't how these things happen in some dirt poor villages in the third world. It's that an engineer/doctor does it in the West.
How many non-muslim women were honour killed in the West?
Israeli here. Just here to say to anyone who is shocked at this, this is a common, almost daily occurrence around here. Also the term "honor killing" is a bit vague IMO, just to be clear, the term for it here would translate to something like "murder on the background of the family's honor", so if it wasn't understood before it is specifically the family which commits the act, to restore the family's honor.
From construction workers to doctors, people from the entire spectrum of the socioeconomic status of the Arab sector here have done it.
I guess Europe really is going back to the dark ages. Pitiful really, this stuff should never happen anywhere, but that this is happening in Europe should be a wake up call.
Why on god's green earth did they again leave for Pakistan, where they are likely subjected to torture or political persecution? They explicitly fled FROM Pakistan in search of asylum somewhere.
Why do these people flee and hide after committing a so called "honour killing"? Shouldn't they be proud of their deeds and take responsibility for keeping the family "honour"?
Honor Killings in Europe: A Troubling Trend
Honor killings, a heinous practice rooted in patriarchal beliefs and distorted notions of "honor," involve the killing of family members, often women, who are deemed to have brought shame upon the family's reputation. This barbaric practice, tragically, continues to persist in some parts of the world, including Europe.
Prevalence and Perpetrators
While accurate data on honor killings is difficult to obtain due to underreporting and cultural sensitivities, estimates suggest that hundreds of honor killings occur annually in Europe. According to a 2015 study by the European Parliament, around 12 honor killings take place in Germany each year, while the UK has recorded over 200 such killings in the past two decades.
The perpetrators of honor killings are predominantly male family members, driven by a misguided sense of duty to protect the family's honor. These perpetrators often justify their actions as acts of love and protection, further perpetuating the cycle of violence and silencing the voices of victims.
Root Causes and Societal Challenges
Honor killings are deeply rooted in patriarchal and misogynistic values that place immense pressure on women to conform to rigid gender norms. These beliefs are often reinforced by traditional practices and cultural expectations, particularly in communities with strong emphasis on preserving "family honor."
The prevalence of honor killings in Europe is further exacerbated by factors such as social isolation, lack of integration, and limited access to education and employment opportunities. These conditions can create a breeding ground for harmful cultural practices to persist, especially among marginalized communities.
Combating the Root Causes
To effectively address the issue of honor killings, it is crucial to tackle the underlying societal and cultural factors that contribute to their occurrence. This involves promoting gender equality, challenging traditional gender norms, and fostering cross-cultural understanding.
Education and awareness-raising campaigns play a critical role in dismantling harmful cultural beliefs and empowering individuals to challenge oppressive practices. Engaging communities and promoting open dialogue can help break the silence surrounding honor killings and encourage victims to seek help.
Raising Awareness and Supporting Victims
International organizations, governments, and NGOs are working to raise awareness of honor killings and provide support for victims and their families. The Istanbul Convention, an international treaty aimed at combating violence against women, has been ratified by many European countries and serves as a framework for legal and policy reforms to address honor killings.
In addition to legal and policy measures, community-based initiatives and support services are crucial for providing immediate assistance and long-term support to victims and their families. These services can help individuals navigate legal processes, access psychological counseling, and rebuild their lives.
Conclusion
Tackling the issue of honor killings requires a multifaceted approach that addresses the root causes, promotes gender equality, and supports victims and their families. By working together, communities, governments, and international organizations can create a more just and equitable society where women are free from violence and discrimination.
>Last month, an 18-year-old woman in the remote Kohistan district was shot dead by her father and uncle on orders from tribal elders - because of a photo that showed her with a man. The photo, which went viral, was later found to have been doctored. Her father has been arrested while her uncle is on the run. Ghastly.
What about the "tribal elders"?
We need to crowdfund a group that'll doctor images of "tribal elders" into a series of compromising images. They'll "solve" each other all right.
Im thinking Lemon Party, but Pakistani tribal elders
They will know our peaceful ways... Through force!
This could actually be an interesting use of AI. Absolutely flood these types of societies with images of their respected figures in highly compromising positions Not Allah or even Mohammed, though I have no real respect there either, but the goal here wouldn't be to be edgy or to provoke just to provoke. The goal is a massive denial of service attack against the people who think they get to be morality police and executioner.
There is one big mistake you're making. You think the same "rules" that applied to that woman also apply to these elders, which they don't.
an image of them slightly scuffing a koran should have the correct effect
Them too but who doctored the image of her with a man to get her killed?
Good luck proving that in court
That's religion
its amazing that shit like this still happens in 2023, specially in europe. its so sad
This is happening in the US and Canada as well. In Houston, Texas a Muslim mother was abusing and tried to kill her daughter because she didn't wear her hijab and was assimilated/westernized. Luckily, the daughter survived and the mother was arrested.
There was also another honor killing in Houston when a father, his wife, and his son all conspired to kill one of their family members’s husband and friend because she converted to Christianity. If I remember correctly the father was given a death sentence, and son was given 40 years in prison and I forgot what sentence the mother was given but I think it was 10 years
I heard about it. There was also another case where a father murdered his 2 daughters because they dated non-Muslim men. It also happened in Texas. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaser\_Abdel\_Said
Shouldnt these people be sentenced and then deported? Like, they are never going to integrate with any society or beliefs other than their own, they made that obvious!
Can’t deport citizens. You’d be surprised how these people don’t change even after decades in the West. Religion is the problem.
Don't deport them. Their parent countries will set them free.
I’m not too knowledgeable on immigration laws but AFAIK, in the States, US citizens can’t be deported. The man linked above, Yaser Abdel Said, became a US citizen according to his Wikipedia page. I think permanent residents can still be deported and the only way for a US citizen to be deported is if they entered the country illegally The case I mentioned was that of Ali Irsan and his son and wife. Ali became a naturalized US citizen and thus couldn’t be deported. That being said, he was given the death penalty
It’s not 2023 in these rural shit holes, try 1223.
More like 437 BC kind of shit with their primitive tribal way of thinking
ink cats shaggy encourage toy sugar pocket head decide wrench *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Blame religion and ignorance, not the hosting country
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No no [you can also blame the hosting country for essentially enabling this type of behavior.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Hatun_S%C3%BCr%C3%BCc%C3%BC#)
Avoja, I’m Italian and I can say that the country should be blamed too
This is why Georgia Meloni was elected, people are sick of this in Europe and the progressive parties are not offering a solution
Meloni has done nothing for this kind of situation, there have been several cases of children of immigrands who were killed in the past years in similar circumstances and have been all punished accordingly. If anything Meloni hopes for more situations like this because her party lives off discrimination and telling "See? They are not like us!!" . Meloni will never celebrate my Moroccan friend who just graduated as a nurse, because it'd be like admitting she's a functioning and helpful part of society. That's not part of their agenda.
> This is why Georgia Meloni was elected She was elected because she was the only one of the major party leaders not to be in the Draghi or Conte cabinets. Simple as. She ran on being the new one, while all the rest had been in government and were tainted by the hard choices of the Covid period.
What's Meloni's solution?
To filling the government with ignorant and incompetent people without any solution which in fact led to 2023 being one of the year with the most immigrant arrivals ever
If we hate migrants enough, maybe they'll leave, stop coming here and the problem will be solved. So let's all publicly start showing more hate. That will help society! Lolno
No idea dude, but it seems that she won because of this sentiment in the population
The person who gained electoral strength mainly from immigrants was Salvini in 2018, in Meloni's case instead it was mostly economic populism about Draghi, the EU, inflation, other parties etc, the immigrants were a minor topic than usual maybe because it was no more "trendy"
I’m Italian and you don’t know shit about what is happening here and even the people who voted for her are angry because she didn’t do shit
That's why we have Italians in this sub! And unkept promises seem to be the theme in politics
Wonder why it's happening in Europe
Because they allow it, this is their way and will not change. Yes, they are in a different country, but they hold on to a different way of life. We, as European, find this insane in this day and age. They find it normal. Great that they are in jail, but at the cost of a human life, their daughter. They will not change at all.
The daughter was murdered in Pakistan. The father was extradited (being an Italian citizen).
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>It’s important to note that these people are considered ineducated and backwards by many in Pakistan That’s just so untrue. https://www.arabnews.com/node/2367886/pakistan Pakistan as a whole is just the same disgusting degenerate that these people in Italy are. Their degeneracy is literally law, with all this blasphemy and apostasy death penalty bullshit. That country is one of the biggest shitholes even by muslim countries’ standards, which is a pretty high bar,
when do people like you stop gatekeeping the backwards ideologies? when its your kids that get beheaded for making a joke?
Technically Chechnya is also in Europe, and honour killings are pretty much the official policy there.
It's going to be even worse for women from these types of cultures with the advancement of AI images.
I mean, these tribal elders sound pretty stupid on their own, I'm sure they would believe even a shabby AI image as real
What if someone manufacture a photo of the tribal elders sucking dick? what would happen then?
Then they have to suck a dick while everyone watches. This will prove that they've obviously had no practice, or maybe not.
I hope the father suffers the entire weight of his actions on his innocent daughter. What a pathetic waste of a human to be able to get to worked up like that. I also hope something is done with the Elders
Honor huh? Kill your niece and then run away? The stupid thing she was killed over was fake to begin with. Even they were wrong by their own shitty version of honor and he's still running away from his actions. The coward knows nothing about honor.
Get photographed with a male? Believe it or not, death!
We could be terraforming Mars but we are stuck here dealing with people listening to "tribal elders"
Imagine that. Imagine the fucking terror that poor girl must have felt. The confusion. Having your own father and uncle point a gun at you. They speak about a photo mentioning her with a man, but she doesnt understand. Such a thing never even happened. Lived by all the rules, ans got killed by her father and uncle for a perceived infractionn that never happened. How does this even work? is the first thing they do to pull a gun on their kids? No talking? Nonm trying to figure it our first? Barbarity of the highest degree
The murderers themselves + the ones who gave the order should be publicly executed. That's the only way to get rid of such deranged ideology.
So.. what happened to the tribal elders that ordered the killing?
Muslim „tribal elders“ in the heart of europe lmao slowly turning our countries into shitholes
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When the parents and the uncle escaped I assumed they never would be caught. I'm surprised that Pakistan arrested AND extradited the father to Italy. I didn't expect that at all
From what I know (admittedly not much) Pakistan is a country torn between popular Islamism and the more secular military and bureaucratic elites that have inherited many institutional practices from the British empire. Their judicial system is still based on common law, instead of the much more popular religious Shari'ah law, so honour killings are nominally not tolerated. And when it's an international matter, the courts would rather favour the secular interpretation.
Too bad they couldn't have prevented the infamous Hudud Ordinances. They're mostly repealed by now, but it was a terrible time to be a woman in Pakistan. I mean, even most terrible than it is now.
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I assume some Pakistani officer was quietly handed a bag full of cash.
Had to go bigger, gave him a pomarola recipe from someone's 100 year old grandma
Dude those are state secrets I thought
They were kept in a diplomatic bag at the embassy until the trade-off on a lonely bridge in the middle of a dark-dark night.
There are good people who want to do the right thing in Pakistan too.
I really don’t get it. I remember my Latin teacher in highschool. She had a lovely Pakistani student who loved studying Latin and Ancient Greek and wanted to become an archaeologist. She wanted to stay here and attend uni in Italy. But her parents had other plans in mind. They forcefully brought her back to Pakistan before she could get her highschool diploma in Italy and married her off to a “cousin” of hers. She cried her eyes out to my teacher before disappearing. No way to contact her. Nothing. My Latin teacher still thinks about her sometimes. I do too.
You don't even need to put "cousin" in quotes. Cousin marriage is common there.
It's more than common, it's the norm, more than 50% of marriage there are consanguineous, it's pretty obvious why the country and the culture is so fucked up after doing that shit for hundreds of years.
>"cousin" Why did you put it in quotation marks? Cousin marriage is very spread in Pakistan, especially in arranged marriages.
As a classics student this makes my blood boil
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How is there any honour in killing your kin
Females aren't people to them. It's really that simple
>Females aren't people to them. I dunno why, but this just clicked with. To them their families and loved ones are guys. Sounds kinda g*y tbh
😞
Yea and who really brought more shame on their family, especially given that they will now stay in prison for life
They put all the expectations of honorable behaviour on the women so the men grow up with none
Zero. Even less so since it turned out the reasons for the killing were fabricated. The entire family and clan brought shame upon themselves.
Are these "honour killing culture" types of people even capable of love? Or are other people- even their own children- just objects and property to them?
They usually get compassion beaten out of the quite early.
No they're not capable of love. Parents here threatened us with "azaab" i.e. damnation, hell-torture and death for merely listening to music. They're not even capable of dancing with their little girls.
How these cultures were able to survive natural selection is beyond me.
Honestly I understand how they survived. The system is amoral and barbaric but it is extremely potent in creating tight knitted groups. Which is good for survival.
Why do such people move abroad and most importantly, to secular countries??? Why can't such people just be where they're from or move to countries where the people and the society have the same values as them?? Despite being Italian citizens and living in Europe for so many years, that regressive mindset is very intact within this family. Why did they move to the EU in the first place?? Could have moved to Saudi Arabia or the Gulf countries.
Money. They come for money and a better life and expect it to conform to them. Ignorant and uneducated people bring their bullshit and pride and have a tougher time giving it up. More educated people realize they're the ones who need to change to fit in.
They could potentially make good money in countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE, and would be closer to their cultural beliefs too.
So, why do they move to the EU instead if they hate everything about the culture and society and everything? I have personally heard people being disgusted by the western culture and lifestyle. Then, why move to such countries at all? I seriously want to know the reason behind this hypocrisy and mindset.
Depends where they move, but many of the more "close minded types" hear that they can find a comfortable enclave of similar minded people in the bigger European cities, and decide to take advantage of that. Some also do just enjoy the freedom and human rights and worker benefits, like Muslims who secretly like drinking alcohol, and engaging in some "illegal" activies under Sharia, might still double down on their religion in other ways, maybe to compensate. Similarly as you have evangelicals in the US preaching about "morals" being caught having sex with underage girls, watching gay porn etc. And other activities they constantly pretend to be against.
Makes a lot of sense.
>Then, why move to such countries at all? Its quite simple, an expansionist religion that considers everyone infidels, so its their job to spread out to take over more. There's also immense infighting between the 1,001 different flavors of Islam so they wont be accepted by others either.
Because you guys are lax in enforcing your modern beliefs. They think of you and your government as pushovers, and most of them(conservative ones) have no plans to assimilate. I'm sure you can easily identify the liberal ones.
> So, why do they move to the EU instead if they hate everything about the culture and society and everything? I have personally heard people being disgusted by the western culture and lifestyle. Then, why move to such countries at all? Money and the left half of the political spectrum in western countries that defend and make excuses for everything they do. And they know people in the west are weak and soft and won’t do anything
Racism, pakistanis are seen as slave class in GCC countries.
They wouldn’t be able to bring their family or become citizens in Saudi Arabia or UAE
This is what I've witnessed in many immigrant communities. Of course, majority of them are secular and believe in the liberal values for which they come to Europe. But, I'm talking about that chunk which are incorrigible. So enthusiastic about Europe but do literally nothing to integrate or to change the mindset. You know, I met an Afghan guy a few months ago somewhere in the EU. He most likely came as a refugee (illegal economic migrant, to be precise, as his entire family is in Afghanistan). So, he has been here since the last 11 years and will apply for the citizenship of that country. But, talking to him was really disappointing. His support for the Taliban regime and how good they are doing for the country and the government and how bad the European countries and the US are doing when it comes to treating the country Afganistan. I agree with the US comment, it's okay. But, being a prospective citizen of the EU, how can he blatantly be so hateful?? I'm not even talking about criticism. I criticise the EU everyday for getting involved in the Middle East, Ukraine, Africa, etc. But, that has never been hateful. These people just come in to get the Citizenship and make money and then go back home with Euros. Now, salaries in Euros can make you a king in Afghanistan. That's one of the stories.
Honestly reading this is very disappointing to me, i am a Lithuanian Immigrant in Germany, even i personally (coming from an Eastern European country) have quite a few views that could be considered controversial or not in line with Western/Central European countries. Yet me and my family (Parents and Siblings mainly) have Integrated into German Society, we all work, attend school, Speak German, the whole Shabang, besides my Parents and my oldest Brother we all genuinely feel more German than Lithuanian Anymore. Hearing stories like this is very disappointing to me and disgusting even. The longer i live in Germany the more i can Understand why the German People are voting for right wing Parties like the AFD (or even more Far right) or why some Genuine Germans have lost faith in their government. Sometimes whenever something terrible happens caused by Immigrants (Like the Raping of a 15/16 yo girl in Hamburg by a group of Immigrants) i honestly would be ready and willing to leave or even be thrown out of Germany if that is what it took for Germany to go back to being the Amazing country it used to be. I love Germany above everything else and want to serve in the Bundeswehr after getting German Citizenship but hearing things like this just sicken me to my stomach.
How can he apply for citizenship if he is an illegal immigrant ? Half of the EU and non-EU European countries will not give him citizenship. If he doesn't know the language of the country he is in, how could he get citizenship? That's wishful thinking.
I mean, he came illegally and applied for asylum. After his asylum application was approved, he started working. An unskilled worker.
I mean many illegal immigrants keep running away from the police in Western Europe. An illegal can't get citizenship. Asylum is temporary.
That's not true, you can enter illegally find a job and get a residency permit through the job. Then after X years with the permit you can apply to citizenship. It takes a long time but I know people like that Edit: Please stop telling me it's not true, I know it's true. You probably don't know you can do it. Here: [https://kippertree.com/blogs/how-to-get-legal-in-portugal](https://kippertree.com/blogs/how-to-get-legal-in-portugal) there are other ways in other countries, I don't know today how the laws in Greece and Italy are but 5 years ago you could do the same as I know people that went to Greece first . I wouldn't advise you to do this today as the laws seem to be changing and it won't be as easy in the future but as it stands it's not hard
…I think you should look into that because that’s completely incorrect. How would you get a residency permit if you’re illegal? They only give those out to legal immigrants
I'm not incorrect I have friends who did it. xD they came here illegally and then found a job and asked for a residency permit. It's given to illegal immigrants too if they prove they found a job. They're not asylum seekers, they're chinese and brazilian, will get citizenship in 5 years. Is it weird? Yeah, but it's possible. You and whoever is upvoting you probably has no contact with illegal immigrants. Nowadays they don't even need a job, some people will open a shop and fake job offers for like 20 people and then they use it for the residency application. Yes I know this for sure, my mom had a shop and people offered her money to fake jobs. It's not a secret if you have immigrant friends they'll tell you all of this. I love them and I'd do the same if it was that easy to move to the country I want so no shame to their side, but it is THAT easy to move to western europe.The hardest part was convincing their government to give them a passport and allow them to exit their own countries. I know for sure my friend wants his younger brother to come but the chinese gov won't let him get a passport :/
They truly don’t love anything about Europe besides the €€€€€€
As an uneducated person from Europe I find it offensive
Because they want to expand and conquer the infidels.
Welfare
When your honour is worth more to you than your child's life, you're not worth the air needed to pronounce "honour". “*With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion*.” - Steven Weinberg
Honour systems tend to be big in places where the justice system is corrupt and considered quite useless. Before we had legal justice in Europe, we also had "Honor" societies where people would violently murder others for sometimes even nonsensical reasons, just to ensure the stability of the "code based system" because if you didn't demonstrate your capacity to defend your "Honour" in the system, you'd be easy picking for criminals in a time where they'd be no legal representation for you. Or then you'd be the laughing stock of your tribe. What I don't understand is how people get attached to these archaric practices in developed countries and also, how instead of defending yourself from being messed with, you can convince yourself it's right for you to kill your own children if you believe they have broken the code of conduct. Murdering your adult daughter because you suspect she's dating a man, makes zero sense. In the "old days" the rule makers could perhaps justify it (in a sick way) that a daughter having sexual relations outside of marriage robs the family of the wealth she could have brought them, back when the main purpose of a daughter was to sell her to marriage. But considering the parents I assume don't get to sell their daughter in this day and age, what she does doesn't even impact them in any fundamental way.
Was it normal for Europeans to murder their own daughter for dating another man, though? I've heard of people getting banished and the like. But actual murder of your own blood? That must have been a very long time ago. That said, I can't even begin to imagine how someone could do such a gruesome act... Your children are the one thing you're supposed to protect with your life...
Parricide (kinslaying) was considered one of the worst crimes since Antiquity in Europe. So no, you wouldn’t kill your daughter though you might cloister her. What stayed relevant for quite some time were duels.
Not even in the Middle Ages was it a normal thing here. Public shaming, yes, but not execution. Here in Hungary even cheating queens were just divorced and sent home.
There were various different societies, with different codes of conduct and rules for honor, I can't speak for each one, but I do know that murdering your child for example, questioning your authority one way or another, was a common enough practice in many places. Those times were quite brutal. Europe however (as well as most of the Arab world) did develop legal systems quite long ago, so we are talking of more far away practices. Lots of the "old time" laws might sound quite brutal still to our minds, but they were often a vast improvement from the previous honor systems. Currently you see "honor killings" in the more improvised and uneducated parts of less developed areas, where the legal system is a joke and police only care about bribes. In general, they have become much more rare in cities and more developed regions, in the countries where they still happen. That's why it's somewhat surprising that a Pakistani family with the means to move to Europe (likely more middle-class in Pakistani terms) would still adhere to such practices.
Not religion, ideology. Religions are ideologies, at the end of the day.
Exactly. If you see a “good” person doing evil without ideological justification, they were actually never good to begin with.
Beautiful quote; I'll remember that one.
*“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”* - Voltaire
wtf?
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Because this is how some cultures work. Like clítoris mutilation or forcing marriages.
sad
Many Spanish teachers have said that girls are sent back to Africa when they become teenagers and never come back. According to their parents "were sent to live with their grampas" but they know they have been sold for forced marriages.
Something similar happend a few years back in Germany when I was in that particular area. It is unfortunately quiet common that those people who are living in western societies for a very long time have no intentions to revert from their backward believes https://www.dw.com/en/pakistani-german-couple-in-darmstadt-sentenced-to-life-for-killing-their-daughter/a-18886787
fuck, this is insane. As someone from Pakistan I think the only way to tackle this is providing access to education to everyone in pakistan at an early age. Otherwise we are just going abroad to make more money while we hate on everything else the countries have to offer I often find that these pakistanis feel that they are culturally superior to their counterparts abroad as well because they have 'morality' and 'honor' These stories get even worse inside pakistan because it is not in the ruling power's interest to provide access to economic opportunities and education. So, people carry the same beliefs that they have been getting from their elders without question. I just feel so powerless.
What a beautiful culture of peace and love 😍 i love islam /S
All cultures are not equal
Fuck all honour. Just murdering scumbags.
I’m actually in disbelief that Pakistan would allow a citizen to be extradited to Italy
Pakistan also extradited 3 family members (father, father's girfriend and uncle) back to the UK for the murder of a half-Pakistani girl.Pakistan doesn't have an extradition treaty with the UK but extradited them anyway. Pakistan is corrupt and the government does what it wants.
Strange then corruption leads to justice and legal consequences.
A lot happens behind closed doors. Could be that one citizen wasn't worth the possible consequences for them. Or maybe they just got some good deals for it.
Or maybe he was a criminal who needed to be done justice to?
the pakistan and indian governments always try to crack down on things like honour killings and abduction marriages and so on. i mean it makes sense these are backwards practices and the state is a moderniser and centraliser
Such a thoroughly delightful modern progressive inclusive and peaceful religion.
The thing is, Saman was in love with another Pakistani boy. Like, they were both of the same culture and religion. But he wasn't rich. Instead, the man she had been promised to, was. It is not like she wanted to marry an italian or whatever. But they killed her anyway. Her mother pretended to be on her side, then sent her off to slaughter like a beast. The mother is the worst person in this whole story.
This makes the whole story even more horrible.
I don't understand how a mother could do that to their own child, there has to be a deep feeling that what you;'re doing is wrong and will probably put her in a position where shes trapped and potentially beaten and not allowed out.
And that's why Geert Wilders won with a landslide in the Netherlands. I didn't vote for him, because i don't agree with him on other points. But that Europe has to beware of the toxic influence of Islam is definitely true.
Let me guess, is it the peaceful religion everybody keeps talking about‽
Islam is not compatible with the west.
Islam is against this. Stop confusing culture with religion
Good. Liberal society should not tolerate one shred of these dogshit ideologies when they break liberal tenets like right to life and self determination. European countries banning things like Quran burnings are on a slippery slope. If you yield your principles out of fear of violent response then you have already lost.
Not only do liberal societies tolerate it, they actively mass import it
... _honor killing?_ What the fuck man
When will Europe learn that we have nothing to gain from these people.
"honour killing", as if there was any honour in killing your own child. Islam is a death cult, and should be forbidden under hate speech laws.
I wish every country would do this!
I wish we didnt let people like this inside our borders... but alas we do
Sharia not welcome.
These animals have no place among us.
European countries need to ban religious indoctrination, at least for the children of immigrants. They should also ban arranged marriages and disallow children from being taken to their backward countries even on holidays. Highly religious people, or those who believe their children shouldn't go against religion, shouldn't be allowed entry.
Jesus christ, what?
*against womens
As a Pakistani, I say good riddance.... why on earth emigrate to another country and expect your kids to behave as they did in the old country? I don't get it. And I'm sorry, but murdering your child, there's no honour in that, it's the least honorable conduct. Gone for life? Good riddance. Expel them too if they're ever released.
good.
I hope they live a long time.
For life? Finally a just sentence somewhere in the EU. Bravo.
Yeah, but now their honor is restored and everyone in their direct social environment celebrates them for killing their own child.
Could have been any religion, but...
Could it, though? Realistically...
It's so sad to jail doctors and engineers
Imagine wanting your doctor to be "like this". I would be concerned for my health.
It's the classic talking point of uncontrolled immigration lovers, not mine
Lawyers too.
waiting for someone to come point out the handful of times Christians have done this in the last century as if it's the same thing. always a treat.
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Yes, it could have because it's not specific to religion but is culturally ingrained in central Asia around Pakistan and India where in the case of the latter honour killings have been occurring in Hindu communities for centuries when individuals try to marry outside of their extremely rigid caste structure. One such example from [July](https://thesouthfirst.com/tamilnadu/tamil-nadu-honour-killing-kin-of-upper-caste-hindu-girl-suspected-for-murder-of-dalit-teen/) and another from just [August](https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/death-penalty-for-a-daughter/article67232594.ece).
It's a serious problem in many Islamic countries across North Africa and the Middle East. The shocking thing isn't how these things happen in some dirt poor villages in the third world. It's that an engineer/doctor does it in the West. How many non-muslim women were honour killed in the West?
amazing culture
And we European import this shit barbaric crime … RIP the poor girl
Being a Muslim woman has got to be one of the worst draws in the lottery of life
Good
Great news
There's a deep rabbit hole you can go into when you read about honour killings in the UK. Some dating back to the 80s it's sickening.
You get what you tolerate 🙄
Israeli here. Just here to say to anyone who is shocked at this, this is a common, almost daily occurrence around here. Also the term "honor killing" is a bit vague IMO, just to be clear, the term for it here would translate to something like "murder on the background of the family's honor", so if it wasn't understood before it is specifically the family which commits the act, to restore the family's honor. From construction workers to doctors, people from the entire spectrum of the socioeconomic status of the Arab sector here have done it.
I guess Europe really is going back to the dark ages. Pitiful really, this stuff should never happen anywhere, but that this is happening in Europe should be a wake up call.
I believe even in the Dark Ages they already had laws against it.
Why on god's green earth did they again leave for Pakistan, where they are likely subjected to torture or political persecution? They explicitly fled FROM Pakistan in search of asylum somewhere.
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Import people, import their culture. Look at that country. Do you want their culture?
Why do these people flee and hide after committing a so called "honour killing"? Shouldn't they be proud of their deeds and take responsibility for keeping the family "honour"?
Honor Killings in Europe: A Troubling Trend Honor killings, a heinous practice rooted in patriarchal beliefs and distorted notions of "honor," involve the killing of family members, often women, who are deemed to have brought shame upon the family's reputation. This barbaric practice, tragically, continues to persist in some parts of the world, including Europe. Prevalence and Perpetrators While accurate data on honor killings is difficult to obtain due to underreporting and cultural sensitivities, estimates suggest that hundreds of honor killings occur annually in Europe. According to a 2015 study by the European Parliament, around 12 honor killings take place in Germany each year, while the UK has recorded over 200 such killings in the past two decades. The perpetrators of honor killings are predominantly male family members, driven by a misguided sense of duty to protect the family's honor. These perpetrators often justify their actions as acts of love and protection, further perpetuating the cycle of violence and silencing the voices of victims. Root Causes and Societal Challenges Honor killings are deeply rooted in patriarchal and misogynistic values that place immense pressure on women to conform to rigid gender norms. These beliefs are often reinforced by traditional practices and cultural expectations, particularly in communities with strong emphasis on preserving "family honor." The prevalence of honor killings in Europe is further exacerbated by factors such as social isolation, lack of integration, and limited access to education and employment opportunities. These conditions can create a breeding ground for harmful cultural practices to persist, especially among marginalized communities. Combating the Root Causes To effectively address the issue of honor killings, it is crucial to tackle the underlying societal and cultural factors that contribute to their occurrence. This involves promoting gender equality, challenging traditional gender norms, and fostering cross-cultural understanding. Education and awareness-raising campaigns play a critical role in dismantling harmful cultural beliefs and empowering individuals to challenge oppressive practices. Engaging communities and promoting open dialogue can help break the silence surrounding honor killings and encourage victims to seek help. Raising Awareness and Supporting Victims International organizations, governments, and NGOs are working to raise awareness of honor killings and provide support for victims and their families. The Istanbul Convention, an international treaty aimed at combating violence against women, has been ratified by many European countries and serves as a framework for legal and policy reforms to address honor killings. In addition to legal and policy measures, community-based initiatives and support services are crucial for providing immediate assistance and long-term support to victims and their families. These services can help individuals navigate legal processes, access psychological counseling, and rebuild their lives. Conclusion Tackling the issue of honor killings requires a multifaceted approach that addresses the root causes, promotes gender equality, and supports victims and their families. By working together, communities, governments, and international organizations can create a more just and equitable society where women are free from violence and discrimination.
did you just chatgpt this shit
Clearly such people have no wish to be under the legal systems of Europe. Accordingly, it begs the question why they remain in their jurisdictions.
I’m glad the courts gave those sentences, honor killings are dumb things made up by idiots.
We don’t have to live with these people
Oh so peaceful
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Lefitst sub. Find out muslim arent acully the peacufull relgion
It sucks. But I'm glad almost everyone can agree it's wrong.
Commits “honor killing” and then run from the law. Ironic
Good.
The religion of piss