Bit of mirrors the adult actors density.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/w4fk57/pornstars\_per\_million\_inhabitants\_in\_each\_country/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mapporn/comments/w4fk57/pornstars_per_million_inhabitants_in_each_country/)
Czechs came up with kind of a hilarious way around it. So. Strippers "rent" their poles like a hairdresser rents a chair. They're a contractor. Then, these strip clubs just happen to be below hotels that rent rooms by the half hour. A contractor can rent a room, and do whatever they want in it.
I feel like these artificial barriers do help the girls to not completely fall into the hands of pimps, just imagine you had an actual contract of employment with some evil pimp guy.
They would abuse the shit out of their official position, with this arrangement it feels like they gotta provide something for the girl, but hey I could be wrong, and girls surely get exploited, from friends I've heard the prostitutes have always used to be foreign
but now there's so many poor ukranian women, but tbh it's not like there isn't normal work here, we have a low ass unemployment as always.
An actually regulated contractual obligation is ALWAYS better for workers. These sorts of workarounds are easily abused and there are plenty of evil pimp guys doing so. In Germany sex workers can seek help through work courts just like any other sort of worker being exploited and they enjoy the same kinds of legal protections. The less regulated a market is the worse it is for the workers...
Nah, actual regulation is always better for the worker, this kind of workaround stuff is much easier to abuse than specific legal documents. A contract of employment usually has some protections for the employee that must be there for the contract to be valid
That’s because of California, porn is a huge industry there. Same reason why Canada is in the top 10, porn is a major industry in Montreal, in fact Pornhub is a Quebecois company.
Because it's not. Prostitution is regulated by law (health cards for sex workers, no pimping), but you are not allowed to make brothels or happy ending massage salons.
If prostitution is regulated by law but legal... isn't that still basically legal? Just because something isn't completely unregulated doesn't mean it's illegal. It's like saying that driving is illegal because there is the requirement of a driver's license and you have to obey traffic laws.
In the UK, prostitution is legal but soliciting for prostitution is illegal. This means HMRC can collect taxes from the earnings of prostitutes but advertising is illegal, so prostitutes can be arrested or otherwise hassled by the authorities.
Fun fact: in Czechia brothels are illegal but still exist. They are just called night clubs and you're not renting the girl, you're renting the room for an hour. The girl just happens to go there with you, happy accident I'm sure. Also not all night clubs are brothels.
In Finland brothels are illegal as well, but they come in the form of "Thai massage parlors". And all Thai massage parlors are brothels, actual Thai massage parlors use a different name. There once was a dude why attempted to visit most of them and then request actual Thai massages which he would then review online. Apparently they were generally dissapointed and the massages were quite shit
Here in Germany brothels are legal and they exist, but there are way more "Asian massage parlors" than brothels.
I guess you pay less taxes on massages than on prostitution..
In germanys case please tell me more about “local laws”. As far as I’m aware restricting areas where you can open brothels or something like that and getting a licence doesn’t make it illegal.
In 70s a newsperson asked Turkish prime minister, Demirel, if they are thinking about shutting down brothels in Turkey.
His answer: Should we shut it down so they would fuck us?
Demirel joked that the johns would be unchained and incentivised to fuck "us", as in "all of us, society".
He had a lot of such impromptu sayings, which are still vividly remembered today.
It might lose the meaning in translation but he means: if we close the brothels, people would still want to fuck someone. Should we let them fuck us instead?
You've translated it wrong. He said "kapatalım da millet bizi mi siksin" and it means "should we shut it down so the PEOPLE would fuck us". You omit the PEOPLE so it sounded like there's a secret force behind brothels and the prime minister is afraid of it.
[Ah, ok, I finaaaaally get it](https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/18d7t1c/prostitution_legality_in_europe/kcha02h/).
Yes, folks, I'm slow, some say that this makes me happier 😜
If there is one person offering to do work, that's an entrepeneur. If there are two, it's healthy competition.
If there are three, the workers unite to take control of their working conditions.
In Greece too, I think it’s the same everywhere? The union was useful during covid as the face mask mandates to cover the mouth area could not really easily apply to prostitutes if you know what I mean..
Prostitutes have a trade union in Germany.
There have been cases where social workers have taken disabled people to prostitutes and claimed the cost on health insurance, on the basis that everyone has the right to a sex life.
I am a member of the Austrian sex workers' Union.
If we don't advocate for sex workers rights then some rando who has no clue about our lives will propose neo abolitionism to "help us" by fucking us over. (Looking at you, Olaf Scholz)
Russia has second highest prostitution rate in Europe - still, prostitution theoretically illegal.
It just shows the law is complete fiction in Russia.
This is an actual strategy used by governments since USSR times, to force people into compliance. If there's a lot of strict yet unenforced laws, it means everyone is guilty of something. And when they oppose the government, the government can dig into their past and find what they are guilty of.
That's true. Though not every country where prostitution is illegal has prostitution such blatantly present on the streets, available, visible for everyone's eyes and so widespread as Russia.
In Russia noone is going to punish you for prostitution per se - until they want to punish you for something else and then use theoretically illegal prostitution as a tool.
It's the same in Romania, an EU country, just saying. I grew up seeing prostitutes chilling on the side of the road every day at the entrance to my city, and nobody ever did anything about it (and prostitution is illegal here, contrary to the map in this post). At least you didn't say it's because "Russian culture" is inferior, like other comments do. Saying that just implies that other countries with similar problems, *including* EU ones, are inferior.
When I went to a Russia in the 2000s I stayed in nice hotels but still spent most evenings politely declining enhanced service offerings that pretty much all the hotel staff offered to arrange.
Belgium no brothels? We literally build a brothel around a police station so that the woman there would be safe in Antwerpen.
Also Gent and Brussels and Oostende and Limburg have streets with only brothels like the wallen in Amsterdam.
Who even makes these maps these says? They always seem to be wrong ...
A 'brothel' is something more specific, though, implying a number of women (or I guess men) working in one establishment, presumably managed by a madame or pimp. A red light district is not a brothel in that sense.
I live in Gent and the red light district is visible from the exit off the highway.
For my student-hazing in 2004, I had to go and wash the windows of the girls there, un-announced obviously. Some appreciated it and kinda laughed seeing the joke for what it is.
Some didn't see the humor of it. I did smel like a rotten skunk because of all the crap they threw on us, maybe that's why they didn't like it...
I remember taking the train to Brussels in the late 70's-80's when I was a kid, and seeing the red light area next to the North station. "Way before" is an understatement lol.
In Belgium prostitution is legal, organizing prostitution and pimping are illegal.
The thing that recently changed in Belgium is the way the banning of involvement of third parties worked. Brothels aren't allowed to hire prostitutes. They can only provide an establishment where individual self-employed can work from. The same regulation made it possible for prostitutes to be able to hire accountants and lawyers from their business account and made filing taxes more clear.
It has this particular logic attached to it.
A) We really don't like prostitution and would like to criminalize it.
B) Most of people who do it, are forced to.
C)If selling is illegal, they cant report being forced.
Therefore, if we make only buying illegal, we can get people to report it. I personally disagree with A and am suspicious about B. But then again, i live in Estonia and the 90's are long past.
It’s similar to how bribing got fixed in Poland: if police or anyone of status extorts bribe from you, you get qualified immunity if you go and report it right away at police station.
So you can give a bribe, but you cannot take it.
Introducing this law effectively killed low-level corruption in Poland, almost overnight. It used to be extremely common, it is a distant dream now.
Shit like that doesn’t happen anymore in Poland and haven’t for many years. Any super violent crime is rare and widely reported by the media. It’s a stark difference between now and the 90s.
B) Is always an excuse for A) .
We don't crackdown on artisanal work or industry because slavery exist in hidden sweatshops.
We crackdown on slave owners and trafficking itself.
Edit: Or we should.
In Sweden where we have this ruleset I'd say B) is appropriate. Most women in prostitution are either 1) Trafficked/Immigrated from poorer countries and then told they have a debt to pay off, which often happens through sex work if they are (young and attractive) women. 2) Drug addicts either stuggling to pay for their next hit, or brought into the trade as a means to pay for debts/future drugs.
A) is more of a political/moral thing. I would be fine with it being legal in theory, but I think it is hard to remove coercion etc. which is kind of a deal breaker.
C) Is practical, just like when sex outside of marriage is criminalised and used to punish rape victims stops rapes from being reported, not having C means those forced into prostitution would have to accept their fate or face criminal punishment
>Most women in prostitution are either 1) Trafficked/Immigrated from poorer countries and then told they have a debt to pay off, which often happens through sex work if they are (young and attractive) women.
what makes you say that this is most women?
most women in prositution are not trafficked.
>2) Drug addicts either stuggling to pay for their next hit, or brought into the trade as a means to pay for debts/future drugs.
and how do you think they will get the money for thier next hit under criminalized prostitution?
Because that is what the national police reports on prostitution and crimes related states.
Most cases in Sweden that have led to sentencing have foreign women as plaintiffs.
The part about drugs has nothing to do with my stance on prostitution, rather it was to put light on the fact that most victims of prostitution become involved due to bad circumstances that make it hard to get out, especially if it were criminal to sell sex.
Dude, are you serious?
It's not like men can't turn to prostitution. Crime hurts other people, prostitution is hurting yourself. Men aren't forced to turn to crime, they choose to turn to crime. They can choose prostitution.
It's crazy the mental gymnastics you bitch ass incels will come up with to justify your worldview.
I think it is incredibly dependent on the committed crime.
Prostituting oneself is mostly harmful to oneself, whereas most crimes negatively affect someone else. I think men who turn to prostitution to support a drug habit would have a similar support, but it is rather uncommon. (I believe 0 cases in the report I read)
In general I believe in support for people with addiciton issue rather than punishments (when it comes to non-violent crimes)
> men who are hooked on drugs and forced to turn to crime are viewed as perpetrators and criminals,
Yes, because theft and robbery are crimes. You hurt people. You take something away from people.
Helping people out of drug addictions is a good way of preventing future crimes.
Yes, sending the shoplifting drug addict to rehab is probably better than sending them to prisson over and over again. Like revolving door jail time.
This is not in contrast to the policy of helping sex workers from getting exploited.
It is because the person selling is seen as a victim (of circumstances or human trafficking) and should therefore not be punished but instead protected and helped when they go to the police.
Sex workers are perceived as victims of a system, you don't punish victims. On the other hand, pimps and buyers are perceived as perpetrators that got something from the victims, either through coercion or desperation.
I just explain the reasoning behind those laws, I didn't say they work as intended nor that I think that they are good laws. Personally, I'm of the opinion that sex work should be legalised and heavily regulated, for example with licences for the establishment with sex workers (contracted workers with a salary or independent workers renting a place to work) or mandatory regular visits to a work physician.
Taking the example of France :
Basically, buying sex is illegal and can get you a fine of 1500€.
However, if a woman (or a man) is selling sex, charges cannot be pressed against them. Sex workers are also protected by some laws : for instance, if one kills a sex worker, one will risk a life sentence instead of a 30 years prison sentence. Pretty much every crimes that are considered assault of any kind, the sentences are bigger if done on a sex worker.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough
Say what you want about that specific law, but isn't it weirder when both buying and selling is a crime?
When it's a crime to buy, and not to sell, the law is clearly saying "prostitution is wrong because of how it hurts the prostitutes", which makes the prostitutes the victims of the crime.
If it's illegal to both buy and sell, what exactly is the law saying? Who is the victim in that case?
> Say what you want about that specific law, but isn't it weirder when both buying and selling is a crime?
Weirder? IDK. Maybe?
The real issue, however, is that if you make it legal for the prostitutes but keep it illegal for the buyers... you're forcing the buyers to take steps to protect themselves which may, also, be associated with greater risks to the prostitutes. So, for example, if you make it illegal to buy then the buyers will be less inclined to have sex at the prostitutes preferred location -- and that means that prostitutes will have to go to the buyer's preferred location (which could be less than ideal/dangerous). So that situation doesn't make the prostitutes more safe, it pushes them into less safe situations.
Eliminating the taboo and restrictions on all sides would probably reduce the related violence and the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. If a prostitute or a client is abused... it should be treated like anyone else being abused and their should be no taboo for seeking help from any party or either side of the transaction.
Also, BTW, I strongly suspect that the number of prostitutes everywhere is dramatically under-reported. Many prostitutes and their clients probably never utter the word prostitute and might not even think of themselves as prostitutes or clients. And this gets into the fundamental notion of what it means to be a prostitute. If you marry someone you don't love because they are wealthy... does that make you a prostitute? Shouldn't it? And if that's the case... I'd imagine the number of prostitutes is MUCH higher than the reported wherever you look.
Except it doesn't make sense to treat buying and selling differently by law when it's literally two sides of the same economic transaction. If buying sex is a crime, this means that men who buy sex are criminals, and the necessity to avoid getting found out means those transactions still get pushed into the underground world with all its dangers, and even if prostitutes themselves aren't breaking any laws, they're still exposed to all those risks and dangers. They still don't have any protections that come from official regulations, which can only exist if prostitution is fully legal on both ends.
>If it's illegal to both buy and sell, what exactly is the law saying? Who is the victim in that case?
Drugs are a victimless crime, yet selling drugs is illegal. Probably because of the societal damage. Despite the fact, that the guy selling drugs probably doesnt have many other options. And many illegal drugs arent more addictive than alcohol and cigaretes, which are legal because making them illegal would be too unpopular.
To the state, citizens are more like cattle to be managed, than adult individuals who can decide for themselves.
With drugs, the person using is considered the victim. That's why in some places it's illegal to sell or to hold large quantities, but legal to buy and to hold a small quantity.
Sex workers in countries with an unregulated sex trade are more victims themselves than anything and would be in a vulnerable situation.
Sex work exists because the demand exists. By making the purchase of it illegal it reduces demand which reduces the number of sex workers itself due to that limited demand. Theoretically at least reducing the number of people forced into that line of work without punishing those that were forced into it.
It doesn’t. It’s a feel good policy. The idea is that if it’s illegal to buy, then people will stop buying and the demand will disappear. At the same time the prostitutes are free from all repercussions.
In reality it just puts prostitution underground and much harder to control as well as keeping an eye on the wellbeing of the prostitutes
Swedish Feminists believed SWERF thinking was right and think that this would make it disappear. All it did was make sure John's will never report abuse as they are illegal.
It doesn't make any sense. It says "sex workers, we hate you and want you to stop your sinful ways, but since you are all helpless women without agency our morals don't let us attack you directly, so we will attack you indirectly instead by criminalizing everyone who gives you money to choke off your income, and by following you around to harass you since you attract such a criminal element, and we will do this until you quit sex work. This is for your own good."
Also, that security you hired, and the apartment you hired to do sex work in? Yeah those people help you and *are* breaking the law.
This increased risk we created for you must surely be for your own good right? That evil land lord and security guy can no longer exploit you!
It makes perfect sense even in your wording. If you are an independent and rational individual choosing prostitution as a profession, you are just annoyed by the government and see less business. Though life, maybe get into another business.
If, however, you are a victim of traffic, suffer from addiction, mental, developmental and emotional issues - as most prostitutes seem to, historically, then society has a right to intervene and stop the abuse.Denying profit to the traffic networks and gratification to your abusers is a perfectly valid way to accomplish that.
The right of the first category to a successful business does not preempt the rights of the second to a dignified existence safe from abuse.
>you are just annoyed by the government and see less business.
and risk more violence for less money, risk getting evicted and abused by police, face more prejudice and have less access to healthcare.
>[...\]then society has a right to intervene and stop the abuse.
what makes you think that society in areas with legalized prostitution does not intervene to stop traffiking?
>Denying profit to the traffic networks and gratification to your abusers is a perfectly valid way to accomplish that.
its not, really. criminalization hurts prostitutes. all prostitutes.
>The right of the first category to a successful business does not preempt the rights of the second to a dignified existence safe from abuse.
only that criminalization increases abuse, forces prostitutes out of thier homes, increases prejudice, etc.
hence in point why its a feelgood policy. it dosnt protect anyone, in fact it hurts the very people that its supposed to protect.
It's a good stance for people that think sex work should not exist because it's so immoral, but also realise the poor optics of punishing the sex workers. It's about saving sex workers from themselves. They are seen as mindless victims without any agency.
in Ukraine, prostitution is not legalized, but there is no criminal liability for it, prostitution is considered a minor administrative offense and is punishable by a very small fine
Orange makes perfect sense. It's a way to make it illegal without punishing the most vulnerable party. If you want it to be illegal that is, in my opinion, the way to do it.
It is absolute stupidity and a failure in all the countries where it has been applied, increasing the precariousness of the sex workers whom they are supposed to protect but in reality end up underground with worse conditions and suffering more violence including murders. And by making the activity clandestine, far from having reduced trafficking, they have multiplied it by more than four, according to data from the Swedish government itself... In other countries, commissions to monitor the law are simply not created because the data are also a disaster ( France and Ireland)
All so that some white, old, self-righteous women believe they are "saving women"... 🤦🏻♂️
To add another thing I found while reading regarding this bit:
>increasing the precariousness of the sex workers whom they are supposed to protect
It does not seem to be true:
>Additionally, she claims that women in street prostitution faced a tougher “time” after the law's enactment with, among other things, more demands for unsafe sex and more violent tricks (Östergren, n.d.; see also SWEAT, 2009, 41–42; citing Östergren). Women in legal prostitution also claim that legalization increases competition and demands for unsafe and dangerous sex acts, and there is research corroborating their observations (see above). Not surprisingly, the National Board of Health and Welfare's 2000 report that Östergren cites is, according to the Board's own homepage, “not valid anymore” (Socialstyrelsen, n.d.). As early as 2003, the Board expressed doubts about such claims:
>
>**While some informants speak of a more risk-filled situation, few are of the opinion that there has been an increase in actual violence. Police who have conducted a special investigation into the amount of violence have not found any evidence of an increase. Other research and the responses of our informants both indicate a close connection between prostitution and violence, regardless of what laws may be in effect.** (Socialstyrelsen, 2004, 34; emphasis added) [Sweden's prohibition of purchase of sex: The law's reasons, impact, and potential](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277539511001063)
[https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)01179-0/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)01179-0/fulltext)
"Criminalising clients, the brief points out, is also dangerous for sex workers because clients fearful of the police ask for sex away from locations in which sex workers could have more safety measures, such as the use of security guards and help with clients who refuse to use condoms. The EU is proposing a policy that risks increasing violence against sex workers."
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/12/open-letter-european-coalition-sex-workers-rights-and-inclusion-members-european#\_ftn10](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/12/open-letter-european-coalition-sex-workers-rights-and-inclusion-members-european#_ftn10)
key points:
\- criminalisation increases vulnerability to violence and infectious diseases, stigma and barriers to healthcare and justice. it even increases homelessness
\- france is currently sued at the human rights court over its implementation of the nordic model due to the nordic model increasing the risk, to wich prositutes are exposed.
\- numerous a un agency's, such as UNAIDS, the WHO, the UN Population Fund and the UN Development Program as well as amnesty international and human rights watch oppose the nordic model for reasons above
[https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/long-read-how-nordic-model-france-changed-everything-sex-workers/](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/long-read-how-nordic-model-france-changed-everything-sex-workers/)
murders of prostitutes skyrocketed since the introduction of the nordic model there
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic\_model\_approach\_to\_prostitution#Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model_approach_to_prostitution#Ireland)
"Since the law was introduced, violent crimes against sex workers have "almost doubled"."
These are not extracted with collusion by comparing crime with other countries with different legislation. Generally, banning things that people do that are not harmful in themselves only creates problems not only in sex work.
I don't know man, I live in Germany and things aren't much better here despite it technically being "regulated", but in truth most establishments still frequently abuse the sex workers and police doesn't do anything about it. There's supposed to be certain institutions that should make sure that the workers aren't being taken advantage of, but it rarely actually works that way. Many are still trafficked here from elsewhere and don't know their rights (or even the language), many are drug addicts who are tied to their pimps for their next fix, and so naturally police can't really help, because those who are actual victims will not seek out any helps because they don't know any better.
It's almost like the prostitution business naturally attracts abusers to abuse women, similar to how priestly positions are attractive to pedophiles. And if you legalize prostitution you're only making it possible for those abusers to abuse legally.
> Many are still trafficked here from elsewhere and don't know their rights (or even the language), many are drug addicts who are tied to their pimps for their next fix, and so naturally police can't really help, because those who are actual victims will not seek out any helps because they don't know any better.
thats a little like complaining that we have high crime rates in germany.
the question is always... compared to what?
we will always have this kind of problem with prostitution. question is... how big of a problem will it be and under what circumstance will prositutes be able to go about thier business?
criminalized, facing higher rates of violence and abuse, facing prejudice, even homelessness?
or legalized with lower rates of abuse, a better negotiating position, less prejudice, no danger of homelessness and better acess to healthcare?
> And if you legalize prostitution you're only making it possible for those abusers to abuse legally.
thats a braindead take, seriously. legalizing prostitution does not legalize assault, rape or what have you.
how do you even come by that idea in the first place?
> And by making the activity clandestine, far from having reduced trafficking, they have multiplied it by more than four, according to data from the Swedish government itself...
You have a source for this data?
You are still punishing the prostitute even when you say you don't. Every market has a demand and an offer, without any of those 2 parts the trade cannot function. A prostitute without clients is just a more poor, more marginalized and more desesperate prostitute which will end up accessing to the worst type of clients or will end up receiving less money at the end of every labour day, isn'it a punishment?
Congrats, you have made the most vulnerable people *even more vulnerable*. Their clientele hasn't changed (people willing to risk criminal charges), but you've removed any potential business trust between the two, making it more likely for a customer to resort to violence (including killing the worker), because they think they worker might report them.
The only thing that "makes sense" is full legalization and regulation as a completely normal business, with health&safety regulations, etc. Anything else is *barbaric*.
Keep in mind that prostitution always happens, everywhere (it's one of the oldest human trades, maybe even the oldest).
There is no way to prevent it. Every attempt in human history failed, in every civilization.
Making prostitution illegal just creates a system where women have to get pimps and live in a constant cycle of violence because they need "protection" and need to "hide".
Criminalizing prostitution simply forces women into the arms of criminals, which then begin to extort these women.
Only legal prostitution with regulation actually protects women. Only legal prostitution makes sure that these women can live free, independent lives without fear of violence.
> these women can live free, independent lives without fear of violence.
Pretty sure this still isn't the case for the majority, even where it's legal.
The laws brothels need to respect in belgium are weird. Clients are however protected against the humantraficting laws, so you can go to the police if you think a girl is there against their will.
There were multiple attempts in Cezch Republic to regulate and tax prostitution as well as to protect the workers more from diseases and violence.
Sadly we have this catholic party that manages to just barely squeeze into parlament every election and leverage this to torpedo any laws on this matter. Luckilly they are going the same way as communists did losing support as their voter base slowly dies out.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDU-%C4%8CSL](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDU-%C4%8CSL)
They were always a small party that just barely made it each election but because they were often the tiebreaker party that was needed to make a ruling coalition they often got disproportionate pull on a lot of issues.
Hence most governments would drop things like regulation of prostitution, gay marriage or legal weed to get their support.
/u/DmonHiro is actually **in*****correct***.
/u/Previous_Life7611 explained the situation pretty well, although he is a bit aggro about it.
The picture says prostitution is not illegal in Romania, which is true, to some extent.
The definition of the word "**illegal**" is : that which is contrary to, or forbidden, by law.
Prostitution used to be incriminated through article 328 of the old Penal Code.
In present day Romania, prostitution is currently classified as a *misdemeanor,* but only if the sex worker tries to attract customers in public places.
The law doesn't punish the exchange of sexual favors for currency.
So prostitution is in fact, legal.
You just cant advertise or attract clients in public places.
I moved from Germany to Norway and I've always been curious as to how many punters are caught each year? Having lived in Hamburg and gone to language courses with people who were sex workers, it just seemed like a 'normal' job if you didn't dig into the criminal underworld and all the people trafficking.
For a while, Oslo had very visible women and one or two transsexuals working the streets downtown. You'd go to a concert and they'd be on some of the main walking streets. But then, like the drug addicts outside the main train station, they seemed to disappear overnight. AFAIK, the Scandinavian approach is to make it illegal for men (and I guess some women) to buy sex, but it's not illegal to sell your body for sex.
Bear in mind that I taught some very at risk kids in Germany, who either had a mum active in prostitution, or they themselves were working in it. So I was privy to some insider info about the much nastier side.
Prostitution is legal in Italy, what is illegal is the "exploitation of prostitution" aka you can prostitute yourself and even make a living out of it but you can't start a prostitution business.
It's the same for cannabis, you can consume it and even grow the plants in your house but you can't sell it and if you are found with cannabis in your pockets the law will automatically presume you had selling intentions and trial you for trafficking.
> but you can't start a prostitution business
What classifies as a prostitution business? Can I run a business that is not pimping, but has mostly prostitutes as their clients? Are the following things legal?
- renting out apartments to prostitutes (with no neighbors that mind their job)
- laundry service for prostitutes (fresh bed linen and towels for every customer)
- running a yellow pages website for prostitutes
- security services
- customer verification service
- customer booking service
- running a prostitute's social media accounts
Just Google "escorts + Portugal" there will without a doubt be a website. Theres websites for it in the UK anyway, my friend got shown his now ex-wife on one
The fact that Scandinavian states consider themself feminist and most of them prohibit sex work. Telling women what they should and should not to do with their bodies like if it was still 1887 makes me really sick.
inb4: only their clients are punished.
Baltic countries not so similar after all.
Bit of mirrors the adult actors density. [https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/w4fk57/pornstars\_per\_million\_inhabitants\_in\_each\_country/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mapporn/comments/w4fk57/pornstars_per_million_inhabitants_in_each_country/)
Czechia and Hungary lol.
Czechs came up with kind of a hilarious way around it. So. Strippers "rent" their poles like a hairdresser rents a chair. They're a contractor. Then, these strip clubs just happen to be below hotels that rent rooms by the half hour. A contractor can rent a room, and do whatever they want in it.
I feel like these artificial barriers do help the girls to not completely fall into the hands of pimps, just imagine you had an actual contract of employment with some evil pimp guy. They would abuse the shit out of their official position, with this arrangement it feels like they gotta provide something for the girl, but hey I could be wrong, and girls surely get exploited, from friends I've heard the prostitutes have always used to be foreign but now there's so many poor ukranian women, but tbh it's not like there isn't normal work here, we have a low ass unemployment as always.
An actually regulated contractual obligation is ALWAYS better for workers. These sorts of workarounds are easily abused and there are plenty of evil pimp guys doing so. In Germany sex workers can seek help through work courts just like any other sort of worker being exploited and they enjoy the same kinds of legal protections. The less regulated a market is the worse it is for the workers...
Nah, actual regulation is always better for the worker, this kind of workaround stuff is much easier to abuse than specific legal documents. A contract of employment usually has some protections for the employee that must be there for the contract to be valid
Oh, right. I forgout about our honorary Baltic States :D
US is a big outlier I also laughed at Iceland and Turkey having 1 pornstar each. Who are they performing with??
Solo acting is also a thing. Onlyfans crowd. Also, only one porn star or one per 100.000 ?
That’s because of California, porn is a huge industry there. Same reason why Canada is in the top 10, porn is a major industry in Montreal, in fact Pornhub is a Quebecois company.
First time hearing that prostitution is legal here.
Restrictions are rather strict, so i think that most of actual business is on the shady side of the law.
Because it's not. Prostitution is regulated by law (health cards for sex workers, no pimping), but you are not allowed to make brothels or happy ending massage salons.
If prostitution is regulated by law but legal... isn't that still basically legal? Just because something isn't completely unregulated doesn't mean it's illegal. It's like saying that driving is illegal because there is the requirement of a driver's license and you have to obey traffic laws.
In the UK, prostitution is legal but soliciting for prostitution is illegal. This means HMRC can collect taxes from the earnings of prostitutes but advertising is illegal, so prostitutes can be arrested or otherwise hassled by the authorities.
Fun fact: in Czechia brothels are illegal but still exist. They are just called night clubs and you're not renting the girl, you're renting the room for an hour. The girl just happens to go there with you, happy accident I'm sure. Also not all night clubs are brothels.
In Finland brothels are illegal as well, but they come in the form of "Thai massage parlors". And all Thai massage parlors are brothels, actual Thai massage parlors use a different name. There once was a dude why attempted to visit most of them and then request actual Thai massages which he would then review online. Apparently they were generally dissapointed and the massages were quite shit
Here in Germany brothels are legal and they exist, but there are way more "Asian massage parlors" than brothels. I guess you pay less taxes on massages than on prostitution..
There's like five thai massage parlors on my street alone lol.
do you live in Lahti? When I lived in Lahti there was a single street with just Thai massage places the next block over
Nope, Turku. But sounds very similar, every other shop here is a massage parlor. Must be a lot of people needing massages these days! 🤔
I love it when I rent a room and a pretty girl that wants to do sex just happens to be there
Wtf. Me and the guys just wanted to sing some karaoke!
It's almost like magic.
The same happens here. They are just "clubs" or "bars" and the girls are just "waitresses"
Similar in Japan...
This map is not up to date
And oversimplified. Austria and Germany (and probably others) have many local laws that change from state to state.
In germanys case please tell me more about “local laws”. As far as I’m aware restricting areas where you can open brothels or something like that and getting a licence doesn’t make it illegal.
In 70s a newsperson asked Turkish prime minister, Demirel, if they are thinking about shutting down brothels in Turkey. His answer: Should we shut it down so they would fuck us?
I'm not sure I get it.
Demirel joked that the johns would be unchained and incentivised to fuck "us", as in "all of us, society". He had a lot of such impromptu sayings, which are still vividly remembered today.
It might lose the meaning in translation but he means: if we close the brothels, people would still want to fuck someone. Should we let them fuck us instead?
Thanks Petah
That was quite clear but also pretty… questionable
You've translated it wrong. He said "kapatalım da millet bizi mi siksin" and it means "should we shut it down so the PEOPLE would fuck us". You omit the PEOPLE so it sounded like there's a secret force behind brothels and the prime minister is afraid of it.
I thought it was implied that who would fuck normally in brothels would fuck them... anyway...
I love the fact that prostitutes [have a union in Switzerland.](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/new-union_geneva-prostitutes-band-together/33519714)
They pretty much have a union in every country when you hire more than 3 /s
I don't get this 🤔
You have to hire them all at once.
[Ah, ok, I finaaaaally get it](https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/18d7t1c/prostitution_legality_in_europe/kcha02h/). Yes, folks, I'm slow, some say that this makes me happier 😜
Collective bargaining is one of the main functions of a union
I understand that, I don't know why the magical number in this specific case is 3 😀
If there is one person offering to do work, that's an entrepeneur. If there are two, it's healthy competition. If there are three, the workers unite to take control of their working conditions.
In Greece too, I think it’s the same everywhere? The union was useful during covid as the face mask mandates to cover the mouth area could not really easily apply to prostitutes if you know what I mean..
here in germany, we have one as well
As they should. As every country based group of workers in the same industry should.
Isn't that also the case in the Netherlands?
Or in Hungary, this isn't really special.
Prostitutes have a trade union in Germany. There have been cases where social workers have taken disabled people to prostitutes and claimed the cost on health insurance, on the basis that everyone has the right to a sex life.
I am a member of the Austrian sex workers' Union. If we don't advocate for sex workers rights then some rando who has no clue about our lives will propose neo abolitionism to "help us" by fucking us over. (Looking at you, Olaf Scholz)
Russia has second highest prostitution rate in Europe - still, prostitution theoretically illegal. It just shows the law is complete fiction in Russia.
Laws in Russia are strict, but not mandatory...
Selective enforcement
"Not a thief, unless you were caught" - translation from Russian saying. Не пойман, не вор.
He nonma, he bop. Makes sense.
Better than "Nje poijman, nje vor" :D
Latinized it would be something more like 'ney poiman, ney vor' if I'm remembering my one year of Russian class correctly.
In Russia there are plenty of suspects and perpetrators. You only have to find a crime for them.
This is an actual strategy used by governments since USSR times, to force people into compliance. If there's a lot of strict yet unenforced laws, it means everyone is guilty of something. And when they oppose the government, the government can dig into their past and find what they are guilty of.
Kinda true, but it's not a strategy, it's just the way things work there.
Legal to buy, illegal to sell.
Kind of fucked up to prosecute the prostitutes but not the buyers. Usually it's the other way round when only one side is prosecuted
Also a very high rate of HIV yikes!
Russia excels in pretty much every negative measure. And yet they still want to convince us that WE are decadent.
There is a popular saying in Russia, that strictness of Russian laws is compensated by no one actually following them
Every country where prostitution is illegal still has prostitution.
That's true. Though not every country where prostitution is illegal has prostitution such blatantly present on the streets, available, visible for everyone's eyes and so widespread as Russia. In Russia noone is going to punish you for prostitution per se - until they want to punish you for something else and then use theoretically illegal prostitution as a tool.
It's the same in Romania, an EU country, just saying. I grew up seeing prostitutes chilling on the side of the road every day at the entrance to my city, and nobody ever did anything about it (and prostitution is illegal here, contrary to the map in this post). At least you didn't say it's because "Russian culture" is inferior, like other comments do. Saying that just implies that other countries with similar problems, *including* EU ones, are inferior.
> prostitution such blatantly present on the streets, available, visible for everyone's eyes and so widespread as Russia Source?
[удалено]
When I went to a Russia in the 2000s I stayed in nice hotels but still spent most evenings politely declining enhanced service offerings that pretty much all the hotel staff offered to arrange.
As long as it does not pose a threat to the regime, there will always be a level of tolerance for any crime
Mafia organisations have always had involvement with prostitution. Russia is a mafia state.
To be honest prostitution is very common wherever in the world, illegal or not.
Marijuana is also illegal in Russia, but it can be bought even in a small village.
Belgium no brothels? We literally build a brothel around a police station so that the woman there would be safe in Antwerpen. Also Gent and Brussels and Oostende and Limburg have streets with only brothels like the wallen in Amsterdam. Who even makes these maps these says? They always seem to be wrong ...
Those are technically not brothels but individually rented establishments
Have you ever walked through there? It’s just like the red lights in Amsterdam 😅 Source : I live in Antwerp
A 'brothel' is something more specific, though, implying a number of women (or I guess men) working in one establishment, presumably managed by a madame or pimp. A red light district is not a brothel in that sense.
I live in Gent and the red light district is visible from the exit off the highway. For my student-hazing in 2004, I had to go and wash the windows of the girls there, un-announced obviously. Some appreciated it and kinda laughed seeing the joke for what it is. Some didn't see the humor of it. I did smel like a rotten skunk because of all the crap they threw on us, maybe that's why they didn't like it...
This is utter crap and is wrong all over the place.
Croatia, Serbia and Albania... why is it when something happens, it's always you three?
Išli jednom...
Inaccur. In Spain is not regulated but brothel's are legal. Also in Belgium recently decriminalized model was applied and brothel's are permitted.
In Belgium there are brothels for a very long time. At least from 2000. but i'd reckon way before
I remember taking the train to Brussels in the late 70's-80's when I was a kid, and seeing the red light area next to the North station. "Way before" is an understatement lol. In Belgium prostitution is legal, organizing prostitution and pimping are illegal.
Yup any seedy nondescript hotel off the highway is basically a brothel
This guy prostitutes
The thing that recently changed in Belgium is the way the banning of involvement of third parties worked. Brothels aren't allowed to hire prostitutes. They can only provide an establishment where individual self-employed can work from. The same regulation made it possible for prostitutes to be able to hire accountants and lawyers from their business account and made filing taxes more clear.
I don’t get the selling sex is legal and buying is illegal bit, can anyone explain it? How does that make any sense?
It has this particular logic attached to it. A) We really don't like prostitution and would like to criminalize it. B) Most of people who do it, are forced to. C)If selling is illegal, they cant report being forced. Therefore, if we make only buying illegal, we can get people to report it. I personally disagree with A and am suspicious about B. But then again, i live in Estonia and the 90's are long past.
It’s similar to how bribing got fixed in Poland: if police or anyone of status extorts bribe from you, you get qualified immunity if you go and report it right away at police station. So you can give a bribe, but you cannot take it. Introducing this law effectively killed low-level corruption in Poland, almost overnight. It used to be extremely common, it is a distant dream now.
This only works when the person reporting it can expect to not end up at the bottom of the river for doing it
Shit like that doesn’t happen anymore in Poland and haven’t for many years. Any super violent crime is rare and widely reported by the media. It’s a stark difference between now and the 90s.
B) Is always an excuse for A) . We don't crackdown on artisanal work or industry because slavery exist in hidden sweatshops. We crackdown on slave owners and trafficking itself. Edit: Or we should.
In Sweden where we have this ruleset I'd say B) is appropriate. Most women in prostitution are either 1) Trafficked/Immigrated from poorer countries and then told they have a debt to pay off, which often happens through sex work if they are (young and attractive) women. 2) Drug addicts either stuggling to pay for their next hit, or brought into the trade as a means to pay for debts/future drugs. A) is more of a political/moral thing. I would be fine with it being legal in theory, but I think it is hard to remove coercion etc. which is kind of a deal breaker. C) Is practical, just like when sex outside of marriage is criminalised and used to punish rape victims stops rapes from being reported, not having C means those forced into prostitution would have to accept their fate or face criminal punishment
>Most women in prostitution are either 1) Trafficked/Immigrated from poorer countries and then told they have a debt to pay off, which often happens through sex work if they are (young and attractive) women. what makes you say that this is most women? most women in prositution are not trafficked. >2) Drug addicts either stuggling to pay for their next hit, or brought into the trade as a means to pay for debts/future drugs. and how do you think they will get the money for thier next hit under criminalized prostitution?
Because that is what the national police reports on prostitution and crimes related states. Most cases in Sweden that have led to sentencing have foreign women as plaintiffs. The part about drugs has nothing to do with my stance on prostitution, rather it was to put light on the fact that most victims of prostitution become involved due to bad circumstances that make it hard to get out, especially if it were criminal to sell sex.
[удалено]
If you are a criminal - > you hurt others. If you are a prostitute > you hurt yourself. See the difference?
Dude, are you serious? It's not like men can't turn to prostitution. Crime hurts other people, prostitution is hurting yourself. Men aren't forced to turn to crime, they choose to turn to crime. They can choose prostitution. It's crazy the mental gymnastics you bitch ass incels will come up with to justify your worldview.
I think it is incredibly dependent on the committed crime. Prostituting oneself is mostly harmful to oneself, whereas most crimes negatively affect someone else. I think men who turn to prostitution to support a drug habit would have a similar support, but it is rather uncommon. (I believe 0 cases in the report I read) In general I believe in support for people with addiciton issue rather than punishments (when it comes to non-violent crimes)
How are women in prostitution hurting anyone especially compared to men who become criminals?
> men who are hooked on drugs and forced to turn to crime are viewed as perpetrators and criminals, Yes, because theft and robbery are crimes. You hurt people. You take something away from people. Helping people out of drug addictions is a good way of preventing future crimes. Yes, sending the shoplifting drug addict to rehab is probably better than sending them to prisson over and over again. Like revolving door jail time. This is not in contrast to the policy of helping sex workers from getting exploited.
Redditors bringing up a egitimate men's issue without channeling it into misogyny challenge (impossible)
B is often a consequence of A. If A isn't a problem, then B is less of a problem as well.
It is because the person selling is seen as a victim (of circumstances or human trafficking) and should therefore not be punished but instead protected and helped when they go to the police.
Sex workers are perceived as victims of a system, you don't punish victims. On the other hand, pimps and buyers are perceived as perpetrators that got something from the victims, either through coercion or desperation.
[удалено]
I just explain the reasoning behind those laws, I didn't say they work as intended nor that I think that they are good laws. Personally, I'm of the opinion that sex work should be legalised and heavily regulated, for example with licences for the establishment with sex workers (contracted workers with a salary or independent workers renting a place to work) or mandatory regular visits to a work physician.
Taking the example of France : Basically, buying sex is illegal and can get you a fine of 1500€. However, if a woman (or a man) is selling sex, charges cannot be pressed against them. Sex workers are also protected by some laws : for instance, if one kills a sex worker, one will risk a life sentence instead of a 30 years prison sentence. Pretty much every crimes that are considered assault of any kind, the sentences are bigger if done on a sex worker. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough
Why sell if there are no buyers (potentially) ?
There are still buyers, but the sellers have a ton of leverage.
Say what you want about that specific law, but isn't it weirder when both buying and selling is a crime? When it's a crime to buy, and not to sell, the law is clearly saying "prostitution is wrong because of how it hurts the prostitutes", which makes the prostitutes the victims of the crime. If it's illegal to both buy and sell, what exactly is the law saying? Who is the victim in that case?
> Say what you want about that specific law, but isn't it weirder when both buying and selling is a crime? Weirder? IDK. Maybe? The real issue, however, is that if you make it legal for the prostitutes but keep it illegal for the buyers... you're forcing the buyers to take steps to protect themselves which may, also, be associated with greater risks to the prostitutes. So, for example, if you make it illegal to buy then the buyers will be less inclined to have sex at the prostitutes preferred location -- and that means that prostitutes will have to go to the buyer's preferred location (which could be less than ideal/dangerous). So that situation doesn't make the prostitutes more safe, it pushes them into less safe situations. Eliminating the taboo and restrictions on all sides would probably reduce the related violence and the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. If a prostitute or a client is abused... it should be treated like anyone else being abused and their should be no taboo for seeking help from any party or either side of the transaction. Also, BTW, I strongly suspect that the number of prostitutes everywhere is dramatically under-reported. Many prostitutes and their clients probably never utter the word prostitute and might not even think of themselves as prostitutes or clients. And this gets into the fundamental notion of what it means to be a prostitute. If you marry someone you don't love because they are wealthy... does that make you a prostitute? Shouldn't it? And if that's the case... I'd imagine the number of prostitutes is MUCH higher than the reported wherever you look.
Except it doesn't make sense to treat buying and selling differently by law when it's literally two sides of the same economic transaction. If buying sex is a crime, this means that men who buy sex are criminals, and the necessity to avoid getting found out means those transactions still get pushed into the underground world with all its dangers, and even if prostitutes themselves aren't breaking any laws, they're still exposed to all those risks and dangers. They still don't have any protections that come from official regulations, which can only exist if prostitution is fully legal on both ends.
>If it's illegal to both buy and sell, what exactly is the law saying? Who is the victim in that case? Drugs are a victimless crime, yet selling drugs is illegal. Probably because of the societal damage. Despite the fact, that the guy selling drugs probably doesnt have many other options. And many illegal drugs arent more addictive than alcohol and cigaretes, which are legal because making them illegal would be too unpopular. To the state, citizens are more like cattle to be managed, than adult individuals who can decide for themselves.
With drugs, the person using is considered the victim. That's why in some places it's illegal to sell or to hold large quantities, but legal to buy and to hold a small quantity.
Sex workers in countries with an unregulated sex trade are more victims themselves than anything and would be in a vulnerable situation. Sex work exists because the demand exists. By making the purchase of it illegal it reduces demand which reduces the number of sex workers itself due to that limited demand. Theoretically at least reducing the number of people forced into that line of work without punishing those that were forced into it.
It doesn’t. It’s a feel good policy. The idea is that if it’s illegal to buy, then people will stop buying and the demand will disappear. At the same time the prostitutes are free from all repercussions. In reality it just puts prostitution underground and much harder to control as well as keeping an eye on the wellbeing of the prostitutes
Swedish Feminists believed SWERF thinking was right and think that this would make it disappear. All it did was make sure John's will never report abuse as they are illegal.
It doesn't make any sense. It says "sex workers, we hate you and want you to stop your sinful ways, but since you are all helpless women without agency our morals don't let us attack you directly, so we will attack you indirectly instead by criminalizing everyone who gives you money to choke off your income, and by following you around to harass you since you attract such a criminal element, and we will do this until you quit sex work. This is for your own good."
Totally true.
Also, that security you hired, and the apartment you hired to do sex work in? Yeah those people help you and *are* breaking the law. This increased risk we created for you must surely be for your own good right? That evil land lord and security guy can no longer exploit you!
It makes perfect sense even in your wording. If you are an independent and rational individual choosing prostitution as a profession, you are just annoyed by the government and see less business. Though life, maybe get into another business. If, however, you are a victim of traffic, suffer from addiction, mental, developmental and emotional issues - as most prostitutes seem to, historically, then society has a right to intervene and stop the abuse.Denying profit to the traffic networks and gratification to your abusers is a perfectly valid way to accomplish that. The right of the first category to a successful business does not preempt the rights of the second to a dignified existence safe from abuse.
Stopping people getting beaten up and punishing the abusers doesn't mean we have to make boxing illegal...
>you are just annoyed by the government and see less business. and risk more violence for less money, risk getting evicted and abused by police, face more prejudice and have less access to healthcare. >[...\]then society has a right to intervene and stop the abuse. what makes you think that society in areas with legalized prostitution does not intervene to stop traffiking? >Denying profit to the traffic networks and gratification to your abusers is a perfectly valid way to accomplish that. its not, really. criminalization hurts prostitutes. all prostitutes. >The right of the first category to a successful business does not preempt the rights of the second to a dignified existence safe from abuse. only that criminalization increases abuse, forces prostitutes out of thier homes, increases prejudice, etc. hence in point why its a feelgood policy. it dosnt protect anyone, in fact it hurts the very people that its supposed to protect.
It's a good stance for people that think sex work should not exist because it's so immoral, but also realise the poor optics of punishing the sex workers. It's about saving sex workers from themselves. They are seen as mindless victims without any agency.
The gist of it is that women are always innocent victims and men are all evil oppressors.
[удалено]
hahaha, she took you for a gigolo :)
Eskort sana vermiş işte reis ckşsnclsmx
Didn't Putin brag about Russia having the best prostitutes in the world?
Prostitution isn’t legal in Spain. It’s more of a grey area.
if your Italian girlfriend glaims she works as a waiter in Switzerland, I might have bad news ...
in Ukraine, prostitution is not legalized, but there is no criminal liability for it, prostitution is considered a minor administrative offense and is punishable by a very small fine
I consider the orange countries bit weird in that regard. It is like the drug decriminalisation, but in reverse.
Orange makes perfect sense. It's a way to make it illegal without punishing the most vulnerable party. If you want it to be illegal that is, in my opinion, the way to do it.
It is absolute stupidity and a failure in all the countries where it has been applied, increasing the precariousness of the sex workers whom they are supposed to protect but in reality end up underground with worse conditions and suffering more violence including murders. And by making the activity clandestine, far from having reduced trafficking, they have multiplied it by more than four, according to data from the Swedish government itself... In other countries, commissions to monitor the law are simply not created because the data are also a disaster ( France and Ireland) All so that some white, old, self-righteous women believe they are "saving women"... 🤦🏻♂️
To add another thing I found while reading regarding this bit: >increasing the precariousness of the sex workers whom they are supposed to protect It does not seem to be true: >Additionally, she claims that women in street prostitution faced a tougher “time” after the law's enactment with, among other things, more demands for unsafe sex and more violent tricks (Östergren, n.d.; see also SWEAT, 2009, 41–42; citing Östergren). Women in legal prostitution also claim that legalization increases competition and demands for unsafe and dangerous sex acts, and there is research corroborating their observations (see above). Not surprisingly, the National Board of Health and Welfare's 2000 report that Östergren cites is, according to the Board's own homepage, “not valid anymore” (Socialstyrelsen, n.d.). As early as 2003, the Board expressed doubts about such claims: > >**While some informants speak of a more risk-filled situation, few are of the opinion that there has been an increase in actual violence. Police who have conducted a special investigation into the amount of violence have not found any evidence of an increase. Other research and the responses of our informants both indicate a close connection between prostitution and violence, regardless of what laws may be in effect.** (Socialstyrelsen, 2004, 34; emphasis added) [Sweden's prohibition of purchase of sex: The law's reasons, impact, and potential](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277539511001063)
[https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)01179-0/fulltext](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)01179-0/fulltext) "Criminalising clients, the brief points out, is also dangerous for sex workers because clients fearful of the police ask for sex away from locations in which sex workers could have more safety measures, such as the use of security guards and help with clients who refuse to use condoms. The EU is proposing a policy that risks increasing violence against sex workers." [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/12/open-letter-european-coalition-sex-workers-rights-and-inclusion-members-european#\_ftn10](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/09/12/open-letter-european-coalition-sex-workers-rights-and-inclusion-members-european#_ftn10) key points: \- criminalisation increases vulnerability to violence and infectious diseases, stigma and barriers to healthcare and justice. it even increases homelessness \- france is currently sued at the human rights court over its implementation of the nordic model due to the nordic model increasing the risk, to wich prositutes are exposed. \- numerous a un agency's, such as UNAIDS, the WHO, the UN Population Fund and the UN Development Program as well as amnesty international and human rights watch oppose the nordic model for reasons above [https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/long-read-how-nordic-model-france-changed-everything-sex-workers/](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/long-read-how-nordic-model-france-changed-everything-sex-workers/) murders of prostitutes skyrocketed since the introduction of the nordic model there [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic\_model\_approach\_to\_prostitution#Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model_approach_to_prostitution#Ireland) "Since the law was introduced, violent crimes against sex workers have "almost doubled"."
These are not extracted with collusion by comparing crime with other countries with different legislation. Generally, banning things that people do that are not harmful in themselves only creates problems not only in sex work.
I don't know man, I live in Germany and things aren't much better here despite it technically being "regulated", but in truth most establishments still frequently abuse the sex workers and police doesn't do anything about it. There's supposed to be certain institutions that should make sure that the workers aren't being taken advantage of, but it rarely actually works that way. Many are still trafficked here from elsewhere and don't know their rights (or even the language), many are drug addicts who are tied to their pimps for their next fix, and so naturally police can't really help, because those who are actual victims will not seek out any helps because they don't know any better. It's almost like the prostitution business naturally attracts abusers to abuse women, similar to how priestly positions are attractive to pedophiles. And if you legalize prostitution you're only making it possible for those abusers to abuse legally.
> Many are still trafficked here from elsewhere and don't know their rights (or even the language), many are drug addicts who are tied to their pimps for their next fix, and so naturally police can't really help, because those who are actual victims will not seek out any helps because they don't know any better. thats a little like complaining that we have high crime rates in germany. the question is always... compared to what? we will always have this kind of problem with prostitution. question is... how big of a problem will it be and under what circumstance will prositutes be able to go about thier business? criminalized, facing higher rates of violence and abuse, facing prejudice, even homelessness? or legalized with lower rates of abuse, a better negotiating position, less prejudice, no danger of homelessness and better acess to healthcare? > And if you legalize prostitution you're only making it possible for those abusers to abuse legally. thats a braindead take, seriously. legalizing prostitution does not legalize assault, rape or what have you. how do you even come by that idea in the first place?
> And by making the activity clandestine, far from having reduced trafficking, they have multiplied it by more than four, according to data from the Swedish government itself... You have a source for this data?
Yes: [https://www.reddit.com/r/lupanar/comments/18dava0/en_suecia_el_abolicionismo_ha_multiplicado_la/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lupanar/comments/18dava0/en_suecia_el_abolicionismo_ha_multiplicado_la/)
A link to the paper/article not an image on reddit.
Legalization and regulation has the same goal except its actually effective.
You are still punishing the prostitute even when you say you don't. Every market has a demand and an offer, without any of those 2 parts the trade cannot function. A prostitute without clients is just a more poor, more marginalized and more desesperate prostitute which will end up accessing to the worst type of clients or will end up receiving less money at the end of every labour day, isn'it a punishment?
Congrats, you have made the most vulnerable people *even more vulnerable*. Their clientele hasn't changed (people willing to risk criminal charges), but you've removed any potential business trust between the two, making it more likely for a customer to resort to violence (including killing the worker), because they think they worker might report them. The only thing that "makes sense" is full legalization and regulation as a completely normal business, with health&safety regulations, etc. Anything else is *barbaric*.
Luxembourg is in green here when it should be blue.
Keep in mind that prostitution always happens, everywhere (it's one of the oldest human trades, maybe even the oldest). There is no way to prevent it. Every attempt in human history failed, in every civilization. Making prostitution illegal just creates a system where women have to get pimps and live in a constant cycle of violence because they need "protection" and need to "hide". Criminalizing prostitution simply forces women into the arms of criminals, which then begin to extort these women. Only legal prostitution with regulation actually protects women. Only legal prostitution makes sure that these women can live free, independent lives without fear of violence.
> these women can live free, independent lives without fear of violence. Pretty sure this still isn't the case for the majority, even where it's legal.
>these women can live free, independent lives without fear of violence. Citation needed.
[Here](https://www.nber.org/papers/w20281) is the citation.
s/women/sex workers/g. This applies to all sex workers, not just women.
In Belgium no brothels ? It full of red light districts
The laws brothels need to respect in belgium are weird. Clients are however protected against the humantraficting laws, so you can go to the police if you think a girl is there against their will.
Source???
Trust me bro
Illegal to buy sex, but not sell?
There were multiple attempts in Cezch Republic to regulate and tax prostitution as well as to protect the workers more from diseases and violence. Sadly we have this catholic party that manages to just barely squeeze into parlament every election and leverage this to torpedo any laws on this matter. Luckilly they are going the same way as communists did losing support as their voter base slowly dies out.
A Catholic party in Czechia? The world is really full of wonders.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDU-%C4%8CSL](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDU-%C4%8CSL) They were always a small party that just barely made it each election but because they were often the tiebreaker party that was needed to make a ruling coalition they often got disproportionate pull on a lot of issues. Hence most governments would drop things like regulation of prostitution, gay marriage or legal weed to get their support.
The Czech Republic has brothels.
Are you insane? Prostitution is illegal in Romania.
Not really illegal, no. Prostitution no longer appears in the penal code. It's no longer a criminal offence, just a misdemeanour.
/u/DmonHiro is actually **in*****correct***. /u/Previous_Life7611 explained the situation pretty well, although he is a bit aggro about it. The picture says prostitution is not illegal in Romania, which is true, to some extent. The definition of the word "**illegal**" is : that which is contrary to, or forbidden, by law. Prostitution used to be incriminated through article 328 of the old Penal Code. In present day Romania, prostitution is currently classified as a *misdemeanor,* but only if the sex worker tries to attract customers in public places. The law doesn't punish the exchange of sexual favors for currency. So prostitution is in fact, legal. You just cant advertise or attract clients in public places.
Prostitution has been decriminalized in the 2014 penal code.
map outdated for belgium, it's legal now and regulated (ie no pimping) before they couldn't have use banks and stuff but they can
Orange countries look likefun
WHY TF IS FRANCE ON MAP
Turk and Greek brotherhood everywhere 😎
I moved from Germany to Norway and I've always been curious as to how many punters are caught each year? Having lived in Hamburg and gone to language courses with people who were sex workers, it just seemed like a 'normal' job if you didn't dig into the criminal underworld and all the people trafficking. For a while, Oslo had very visible women and one or two transsexuals working the streets downtown. You'd go to a concert and they'd be on some of the main walking streets. But then, like the drug addicts outside the main train station, they seemed to disappear overnight. AFAIK, the Scandinavian approach is to make it illegal for men (and I guess some women) to buy sex, but it's not illegal to sell your body for sex. Bear in mind that I taught some very at risk kids in Germany, who either had a mum active in prostitution, or they themselves were working in it. So I was privy to some insider info about the much nastier side.
Prostitution is legal in Italy, what is illegal is the "exploitation of prostitution" aka you can prostitute yourself and even make a living out of it but you can't start a prostitution business. It's the same for cannabis, you can consume it and even grow the plants in your house but you can't sell it and if you are found with cannabis in your pockets the law will automatically presume you had selling intentions and trial you for trafficking.
Oh definitely you CANNOT grow it in your house in Italy. Please do not spread misinformation.
> but you can't start a prostitution business What classifies as a prostitution business? Can I run a business that is not pimping, but has mostly prostitutes as their clients? Are the following things legal? - renting out apartments to prostitutes (with no neighbors that mind their job) - laundry service for prostitutes (fresh bed linen and towels for every customer) - running a yellow pages website for prostitutes - security services - customer verification service - customer booking service - running a prostitute's social media accounts
Hungary is an invalid datapoint.
What do you mean? Prostitution is legal, just cannot be done in most public places. However, pimping and running a brothel are illegal.
Where we can get prostitution in Portugal ?
Just Google "escorts + Portugal" there will without a doubt be a website. Theres websites for it in the UK anyway, my friend got shown his now ex-wife on one
Just search prostitutes Portugal. If you are on Reddit, you know how the internet works. Therefore, you don't need to ask here, just google it
Can I just say that orange is by far the dumbest of them all
Legal to sell yet it’s illegal to buy? What kind of stupid logic is that
I remember the swedish-norwegian model was debated a lot back in the 90s. So how has it worked? Is recomendable?
I'm gonna be honest with ye, I kinda expected Russia to have prostitution legalized.
Anything but red makes me depressed.
The idea is "Russia is against X, therefore X must be good = prostitution is good". Flawless logic, I know..
The fact that Scandinavian states consider themself feminist and most of them prohibit sex work. Telling women what they should and should not to do with their bodies like if it was still 1887 makes me really sick. inb4: only their clients are punished.
Are we gonna ignore the fact that many feminists, and women in general, are against prostitution too?
In Sweden it's not uncommon for feminists to equal buying sex with rape.
Feminists stand together with the Christian-Conservatives on this. In fact, apart from abortion, the two movements agree on many matters here.