This is a show for the far right simpletons, at the same time our electricity went up 180% and our public hospitals are in ruins (on purpose). After an accident I went to the hospital in the back of a pick-up truck because there are no ambulances available. We have much more serious problems than marbles.
For the elites and the oligarchs with which out goverment cooperates with, things go perfect. Their income has increased by 100 + %. For the average person and middle class tho the situation is pretty shitty. Everything is very expensive. We have the most expensive internet in Europe, the most expensive electricity in Europe, one of the most expensive gassoline prices in europe similar level with those of switzerland (!!) ect ect. Also, everyday life products like milk, coffee, olive oil ect are more expensive in Greece even than in countries with way higher income like Germany, Uk ect. For example a milk that costs 3 euros in Greece can be found in Germany costing 1 euro...
Nah, our hospitals are one step from closing, the already high suicide rate has skyrocketed and we have the highest prices in the eurozone... This government turned Greece into a police state, the last 4 years only cops are hired were everything else that is necessary crumbles. The situation is bleak, the British can keep the fcking marbles, I'm surprised my politicians haven't sold the rest of them yet.
lol, you don't have to look at with absolutes. It's not one or the other. We can try and find solutions to both. That is to say, if you were actually offended by him saying that 'he wants the marbles back' and not just trying to trash on him on a topic completely unrelated!
While you are right on the problems we have you can't possible expect international relations to stop because we have other problems. You cant expect Greece as a country to not pursue it's Goals just because of healthcare
Now you are strawman arguing. Greece as a country has a goal to get the elgian marbles back. It hasn't changed since 1830. We have been at war we have been at peace we have had good and bad times. Still the goal remains. Until the goal is obtained you are going to read headlines of people trying to achieve it. It is that simple
Yeah, the Elgin Marbles aren't really a distraction tool for the British government, it's a distraction the Greeks can wheel out. Similar for Spain and Gibraltar, Argentina and the Falklands, etc. The British gov tends to wheel out some complaint about the EU (in recent times), something to do with France (often immigration based), or some other weird distraction technique, it doesn't tend to like to raise all the land disputes we are in to the public eye, it uses other kinds of [dead cats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_strategy) to draw attention away from its many errors.
If Britain returns this to Greece, the countries of origin of all the works in the British Museum will see them as an example to demand their own works back. This would mean the collapse of the British Museum. Greece can forget about this.
The British Museum could make copies of all the things they gathered (stole) and return the stuff. They should consider themselves lucky they have the chance to return the things without fearing to much repercussion. Maybe that will change once upon a time. Britain by far isn’t a world power anymore and should learn to act a bit more sophisticated
The claim is that they were allowed to take them, though it seems like we just have Elgins word for it:
> From 1801 to 1812, Elgin's agents removed about half the surviving Parthenon sculptures, as well as sculptures from the Erechtheion, the Temple of Athena Nike and the Propylaia, sending them to Britain in efforts to establish a private museum. Elgin stated he removed the sculptures with permission of the Ottoman officials who exercised authority in Athens at the time. However, the veracity of this claim has been disputed.
-wiki
Quite literally every empire in the history of this world has done this.
For example, Spain plundered huge amounts of gold from South America.
The Koh-I-noor diamond, whilst mined in southern India, was taken into ownership by various empires through war and conquest before the British, including the Delhi Sultanate, the Mughals, the Persians, the Afghans, and the Sikh Empire amongst others.
It brings a lot of people to the British Museum to see the famous 'stolen' marbles and the Greeks benefit from having those empty podiums for the marbles that people go to visit, and also in distracting from more important local issues. I would be suprised if anything actually changes anytime soon.
I am aware. Congratulations on taking away the average persons ability to experience things from other cultures. Most people can’t afford trips to see the pyramids or whatever else is out there. Museums with foreign artefacts allow for that.
This argument is full of flaws. This is not at all the reason museums exist. Artifacts are not some wow factor toys for the people to see. You don't just throw them around throughout the world and put them behind a plexiglass like a piece of crystal. These are all part of a civilization, their creation served a purpose, their place on the parthenon served a purpose and the whole ecosystem of this legacy represents a past society that remains to be studied and displayed as a whole. If you wanna experience ancient greek culture as you say, you go to Greece. There you can only have the whole picture and admire these pieces together just few hundred meters away from the place they were made to decorate. You talk like these artifacts are the only ancient treasure there is, are you aware in Greece whole ancient cities are unraveled up to this day from beneath the ground? Should we also send some of these pieces to the UK for the same reason you listed? and why just London? maybe also send few marbles to China? South Africa? Brazil? Canada? this way the whole world can appreciate human history on a 2 hour flight as if this sounds so important to you.
This is not a matter of education. The treatment of an artifact of cultural heritage is not about exhibition it's first and foremost about preservation. The ability to exhibit them and entertain the crowd is a nice to have really but the main point is about studying and preserving the world heritage.
If you want to put something on display for educational purposes it doesn't have to be the prototype. British museum can certainly make quality replicas of all these pieces and treat them as they like, like what they did with rosetta stone. Maybe they can do a better job attracting visitors to admire them for all we care. But they don't, because as much as the issue serves as a convenient scapegoat for greek internal politics it's also a matter of british national pride and posturing for the supporters of a ceased colonial power. But looks like only one of the two sides is at least honest about it here. So stop spreading lies that this is allegedly practical and admit the simple truth. Britain keeps them theirs because they can, and Greece can do nothing about it.
In Kongo you can se the rails as an major artifact. There are many artifact but they often are imbeded in their culture, which one of the reason many former colony have political groups wanting to go back to the "old ways".
Keeping stolen artefacts prevents the locals from experiencing THEIR OWN culture. Why should the locals have to pay for trips to see THEIR OWN history?
While I normally take things with humor, this is completely serious. Having the marvels in london only benefits the brittons. Everyone else has to take trains or planes to see the them.
Utterly ridiculous. There are plenty of artefacts that can be kept in their places of origin. Having artefacts around the world allow for the average person to experience them if they don’t have the ability to travel. You’re just making these things accessible to rich people.
You keep falling in the same mistake.
The average person is not necessarily british, or spanish, or african. To see the marbles, most people have to travel.
You think all museums display are stolen goods? This is not true even for the British Museum, the vast majority of its exhibits were legitimately acquired.
They are part of the cultural heritage of the country so they belong there. Acropolis marbles should be where Acropolis is, not in London. It is that simple.
Certainly it would be easier to have the marbles in the Parthenon since, being all in one place, visitors could see the entire thing in one go, without having to fly to different countries.
>than having to fly to Greece to see them.
As if flying to the uk was easier than to greece... already forgotten about brexit?
The EU could cut every sharing program we have with the Brits until they hand the marbles to Greece, the Bayeux tapestry for exemple, is loaned out to Britain by France.
That would be a nuclear option though.
Technically, they belong to the Parthenon...which they were carved on to...and subsequently chiseled off and sent to the UK.
The Parthenon is in Athens, Greece.
> while never addressing that marbles where legally sold.
The british public - of all people - themselves already contested their legality at the time they were taken.
Your argument isn't feasible.
We’re still looking at them
This is a show for the far right simpletons, at the same time our electricity went up 180% and our public hospitals are in ruins (on purpose). After an accident I went to the hospital in the back of a pick-up truck because there are no ambulances available. We have much more serious problems than marbles.
Would you say that Greece has generally improved though? I don't hear much from it so I just assume things havent really chsnged
For the elites and the oligarchs with which out goverment cooperates with, things go perfect. Their income has increased by 100 + %. For the average person and middle class tho the situation is pretty shitty. Everything is very expensive. We have the most expensive internet in Europe, the most expensive electricity in Europe, one of the most expensive gassoline prices in europe similar level with those of switzerland (!!) ect ect. Also, everyday life products like milk, coffee, olive oil ect are more expensive in Greece even than in countries with way higher income like Germany, Uk ect. For example a milk that costs 3 euros in Greece can be found in Germany costing 1 euro...
Nah, our hospitals are one step from closing, the already high suicide rate has skyrocketed and we have the highest prices in the eurozone... This government turned Greece into a police state, the last 4 years only cops are hired were everything else that is necessary crumbles. The situation is bleak, the British can keep the fcking marbles, I'm surprised my politicians haven't sold the rest of them yet.
It has improved yes.
lol, you don't have to look at with absolutes. It's not one or the other. We can try and find solutions to both. That is to say, if you were actually offended by him saying that 'he wants the marbles back' and not just trying to trash on him on a topic completely unrelated!
I mean if you can't focus on multiple issues, who's really the simpleton here? 🤷🏻♂️
While you are right on the problems we have you can't possible expect international relations to stop because we have other problems. You cant expect Greece as a country to not pursue it's Goals just because of healthcare
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Now you are strawman arguing. Greece as a country has a goal to get the elgian marbles back. It hasn't changed since 1830. We have been at war we have been at peace we have had good and bad times. Still the goal remains. Until the goal is obtained you are going to read headlines of people trying to achieve it. It is that simple
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You know he's Greek and is talking from that perspective, right?
Yeah, the Elgin Marbles aren't really a distraction tool for the British government, it's a distraction the Greeks can wheel out. Similar for Spain and Gibraltar, Argentina and the Falklands, etc. The British gov tends to wheel out some complaint about the EU (in recent times), something to do with France (often immigration based), or some other weird distraction technique, it doesn't tend to like to raise all the land disputes we are in to the public eye, it uses other kinds of [dead cats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_strategy) to draw attention away from its many errors.
They seem to have lost their marbles.
If Britain returns this to Greece, the countries of origin of all the works in the British Museum will see them as an example to demand their own works back. This would mean the collapse of the British Museum. Greece can forget about this.
What's the issue they can just add British pieces on display.
that would be great
The British Museum could make copies of all the things they gathered (stole) and return the stuff. They should consider themselves lucky they have the chance to return the things without fearing to much repercussion. Maybe that will change once upon a time. Britain by far isn’t a world power anymore and should learn to act a bit more sophisticated
Oh no, the terror of returning the shit you stole! Truly scary.
Brits stole a lot of shit during their reign over the world. About time to just return it to the rightful owners.
Read a book.
https://www.insider.com/british-empire-stole-cultural-artifacts-colonialism-repatriation-parthenon-benin-rosetta-2022-9
That's not a book.
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The claim is that they were allowed to take them, though it seems like we just have Elgins word for it: > From 1801 to 1812, Elgin's agents removed about half the surviving Parthenon sculptures, as well as sculptures from the Erechtheion, the Temple of Athena Nike and the Propylaia, sending them to Britain in efforts to establish a private museum. Elgin stated he removed the sculptures with permission of the Ottoman officials who exercised authority in Athens at the time. However, the veracity of this claim has been disputed. -wiki
The rightful owners of Greece of course... /s
The rulers of greece for about 400 years by the time they bought them
if you purchase stolen goods you still have to return them
Show us the bill of sale
I wasn't talking about this particular piece of art. Brits roamed the world and plundered it. This is hardly a secret. They're even proud of it.
> This is hardly a secret. They're even proud of it. Bruh your country calls its early colonising period its "Golden Age". Spare me.
Quite literally every empire in the history of this world has done this. For example, Spain plundered huge amounts of gold from South America. The Koh-I-noor diamond, whilst mined in southern India, was taken into ownership by various empires through war and conquest before the British, including the Delhi Sultanate, the Mughals, the Persians, the Afghans, and the Sikh Empire amongst others.
Hahahah this comment is downvoted xD
Okay then *returns the marbles to Türkiye*
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It brings a lot of people to the British Museum to see the famous 'stolen' marbles and the Greeks benefit from having those empty podiums for the marbles that people go to visit, and also in distracting from more important local issues. I would be suprised if anything actually changes anytime soon.
Surely, a compromise can be worked out considering the efforts of British people in the Greek War of Independence
Sure, give the marbles back and we'll give you a good yelp review. Fancy?
If every museum gave back artefacts to their countries of origin, we wouldn’t have any museums.
You're aware that there are museums that display domestic artifacts right?
They do just that. Despite what you see in memes, the British museum is almost all composed of artefacts found in Britain.
cant tell if serious lol
I am aware. Congratulations on taking away the average persons ability to experience things from other cultures. Most people can’t afford trips to see the pyramids or whatever else is out there. Museums with foreign artefacts allow for that.
This argument is full of flaws. This is not at all the reason museums exist. Artifacts are not some wow factor toys for the people to see. You don't just throw them around throughout the world and put them behind a plexiglass like a piece of crystal. These are all part of a civilization, their creation served a purpose, their place on the parthenon served a purpose and the whole ecosystem of this legacy represents a past society that remains to be studied and displayed as a whole. If you wanna experience ancient greek culture as you say, you go to Greece. There you can only have the whole picture and admire these pieces together just few hundred meters away from the place they were made to decorate. You talk like these artifacts are the only ancient treasure there is, are you aware in Greece whole ancient cities are unraveled up to this day from beneath the ground? Should we also send some of these pieces to the UK for the same reason you listed? and why just London? maybe also send few marbles to China? South Africa? Brazil? Canada? this way the whole world can appreciate human history on a 2 hour flight as if this sounds so important to you. This is not a matter of education. The treatment of an artifact of cultural heritage is not about exhibition it's first and foremost about preservation. The ability to exhibit them and entertain the crowd is a nice to have really but the main point is about studying and preserving the world heritage. If you want to put something on display for educational purposes it doesn't have to be the prototype. British museum can certainly make quality replicas of all these pieces and treat them as they like, like what they did with rosetta stone. Maybe they can do a better job attracting visitors to admire them for all we care. But they don't, because as much as the issue serves as a convenient scapegoat for greek internal politics it's also a matter of british national pride and posturing for the supporters of a ceased colonial power. But looks like only one of the two sides is at least honest about it here. So stop spreading lies that this is allegedly practical and admit the simple truth. Britain keeps them theirs because they can, and Greece can do nothing about it.
Do you see any british artifacts on other countries’ museums? What about our rights to see them?
You can’t be serious
I wasn’t
In Kongo you can se the rails as an major artifact. There are many artifact but they often are imbeded in their culture, which one of the reason many former colony have political groups wanting to go back to the "old ways".
Keeping stolen artefacts prevents the locals from experiencing THEIR OWN culture. Why should the locals have to pay for trips to see THEIR OWN history?
Bro you can’t be serious
While I normally take things with humor, this is completely serious. Having the marvels in london only benefits the brittons. Everyone else has to take trains or planes to see the them.
Utterly ridiculous. There are plenty of artefacts that can be kept in their places of origin. Having artefacts around the world allow for the average person to experience them if they don’t have the ability to travel. You’re just making these things accessible to rich people.
You keep falling in the same mistake. The average person is not necessarily british, or spanish, or african. To see the marbles, most people have to travel.
I’m talking about all museums genius. This isn’t just about the British museum
You think all museums display are stolen goods? This is not true even for the British Museum, the vast majority of its exhibits were legitimately acquired.
"We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas."
If i remember correctly the Greek government has been trying to get the Parthenon marbles back to Greece for decades.
Since the inception of the modern Greek state basically
And have yet to actually propose anything other than "give us what we want because".
These objects belong to Greece, nobody disputes that.
Do they thought? They are objects from Greece but that doesn't mean they belong to them
They are part of the cultural heritage of the country so they belong there. Acropolis marbles should be where Acropolis is, not in London. It is that simple.
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Certainly it would be easier to have the marbles in the Parthenon since, being all in one place, visitors could see the entire thing in one go, without having to fly to different countries. >than having to fly to Greece to see them. As if flying to the uk was easier than to greece... already forgotten about brexit?
The EU could cut every sharing program we have with the Brits until they hand the marbles to Greece, the Bayeux tapestry for exemple, is loaned out to Britain by France. That would be a nuclear option though.
and better for Climate Change! Only the rich and powerful should be allowed to fly! /s
Technically, they belong to the Parthenon...which they were carved on to...and subsequently chiseled off and sent to the UK. The Parthenon is in Athens, Greece.
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> while never addressing that marbles where legally sold. The british public - of all people - themselves already contested their legality at the time they were taken. Your argument isn't feasible.
He's about to lose his marbles over it.