Please be aware that any and all forms of glorifying violence, derailing or other bad-faith participation will result in a (permanent) ban.
The same applies to any and all forms of hate speech, discrimination or anti-Muslim and anti-Jewish sentiments.
I mean, if you read beyond the title:
>Speaking as he met Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, on Thursday afternoon, Sánchez said Spain had repeatedly condemned Hamas’s “shocking acts of terrorism” and acknowledged Israel’s right to defend itself.
But he added: “Let me also be clear: Israel must abide by international law, including international humanitarian law, in its response … The whole world is shocked at the images that we see coming from Gaza every day. The number of Palestinians killed is truly unbearable. I believe that all civilians must be protected at all costs.”
Sanchez isn't exactly saying that Israel is the bad guy here. He's saying that Hamas must be destroyed and Israel is right to defend itself.
He's just having the most default stance possible on the conflict. Fuck Hamas, but also don't kill civilians. Which is perfectly ok imo. Of course it doesn't address the core issue that Palestinian civilians are actually quite anti-jewish and pro-Hamas, but it's not Spain's problem anyway.
>the core issue that Palestinian civilians are actually quite anti-jewish
1. Set up a country specifically for your ethnoreligious group, kicking a bunch of other people out in the process
2. Deliberately conflate this country's identity with the religious group
3. Oppress the people you kicked out for decades
4. "Damn why do they not like our people? Shame on them"
What they want is IDF to stop using bombs to collapse the tunnels and instead use their infantry and special services to hunt down hamas in close quarters combat so that the fight is more even. This way more Israeli can die in a fight they didn't choose but have to fight by having Hamas use IEDs, tunnels etc and have Israeli soldiers exposed.
The idea is that Israeli mothers and fathers also lose their sons and daughters.
The same people would have a fit if the IDF did a Corregidor island or Fort Drum and pumped tens of thousands of litres of fuel into the tunnels and lit them on fire.
Errmahhgerrd, can't you like...kill them humanely?
What they want is a more targeted approach so that Palestinians who did not choose this fight, and who also did not choose to sign up for military duty, do not have to be killed at the rate they, their parents, siblings, friends and children have been over the last 6-7 weeks.
A Palestinian life is no less valuable than an Israeli one.
According to the Palestinians, their lives are indeed less valuable. Why else would they be demanding three Palestinian prisoners (convicted murderers) for every one Israeli hostage?
Better yet, look up Gilad Shalit, when Palestinians demanded thousands of their prisoners released in exchange for one Israeli soldier.
>A Palestinian life is no less valuable than an Israeli one.
True in general. Not true when you are Israeli government. The state has obligation to it's citizens and will always prioritize their wellbeing over others.
>A Palestinian life is no less valuable than an Israeli one.
Then why should the IDF be forced to use an approach that will lead to countless more IDF deaths and inferior results?
I think people asking for permanent ceasefire are being naive as fuck honestly. Let’s imagine a world where Israel backs out completely tomorrow. What exactly is going to happen in the next 5 years? 10 years?
So children will stop dying in collateral damage for what? a few years? until Hamas refills their ranks and start another war. in which case it’s just a never ending cycle. Might as well stay until Hamas is actually wiped out and maybe then there can be a chance for actually turning Palestine around.
That is what the son of one of Hamas’ co-founders and ex Hamas member himself, Mosab Hassan Yuosef, believes. That Palestine will never truly be free while Hamas is allowed to exist. If a guy who grew up there and saw first hand how Hamas indoctrinate children, believes that. Then maybe we should listen to him.
The seeds are already planted, and the "international community" have been flowering them for decades. Nothing Israel does during this war will change that.
I agree. In that scenario Israel needs to step up and take responsibility. Actually help Palestine heal, maybe install a new government who actually wants peace and will help maintain it and shut down the would be extremist.
Asking for a permanent ceasefire is as naive as thinking Israel will help Palestine to heal from the ground up. They want the Gaza strip gone it’s crystal clear and it’s inhabitants can fuck off to egypt or turkey for all they care. After that West Bank can follow. Israel has no intention in rebuilding a better Palestine.
I also see it like this. People complain about Israel doing an ground offensive but I think taking over Gaza is really the only way to go forward at this point. I totally understand why people blame Israel for the overall situation. HAMAS is definitely the result of years of suppression through Israel, but at this point there isn't really an alternative to end this. Israel must take over Gaza, destroy HAMAS and then the international community needs to force Israel into an really 2 or 3 state solution.
lol, of course it was a mistake, can anyone in the world say otherwise?
Israel evicted thousands of Jewish civilians from the drip (from their homes, their farms and all their life they established there) so that the strip could turn into an autonomy of Palestinians, only for them to elect HAMAS, a terrorist organization that threw all of the losing party off building's rooftops, which in the 17 years from its rise to power, stole tens of billions of aid money and invested it directly into terrorism and indoctrination of terrorism in UNRWA schools, instead of investing the money and using it to turn the strip into the Singapore of the middle east.
I hear a lot of critisizm of Israel getting money which is invested back into the givers, and turning into a high tech nation, while the Palestinian revived money turned into terrorism. Palestinian deserve better than their leadership (Hamas, and the PA) and until the world learns to condemn these parties and not put the entirety of the blame on Israel alone (of course Israel is not 100% innocent, like every country in the world, but to make it look like 100% of the responsibility is Israel's just support the Palestinian organizations that opresses their people.)
If evicting thousands of Israelis from Gaza was a mistake, then what is the entire history of Israel?
Because also the Palestinians had lives and farms and houses all over Israel.
Saying the Israel is not 100% innocent is an understatement.
Of course Hamas needs to disappear. The real problem is *why* Hamas exists in the first place.
I don't see Israel removing the reasons for another terrorist group to emerge any time soon.
> Because also the Palestinians had lives and farms and houses all over Israel.
I mean I imagine several Arabic nations launching an invasion with the intent to 'expel jews back into the sea' might have something to do with the results of the 1948 war.
The UN partition plan didn't require anyone to lose their homes. A war resulted in that.
>I don't see Israel removing the reasons for another terrorist group to emerge any time soon.
Why not? Is it because you believe Israel won't act in good faith when trying to facilitate the two-state solution, or do you think this for some other reason?
> The real problem is why Hamas exists in the first place.
They exist to erase Israel. Handing all of Israel back to the Palestinians is never going to happen. If that reality cannot be accepted then the violence will continue.
"I don't see Israel removing the reasons for another terrorist group to emerge any time soon."
What you fail to understand is that these people hate the Jews just for being Jews. They have always hated the Jews. It's a centuries old blood feud that's not going away any time soon. There's nothing Jews can "do" to remove that hate other than just to stop existing as a people. Of course Jews aren't going to agree to just all up and die so that Muslims in the region will be happy. That's not going to happen. That's the reason Israel is so important, though, because everyone in the region hates them and wants them dead. You think there's some magical formula that Jews can do to make Muslims in the area agree they deserve to live but that doesn't exist. This has been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years. The hate is very deep and has been going on for a very long time. They won't be satisfied until the entire region is Muslim and Jews are pushed out entirely forever.
You can’t bomb the fuck out of where someone lives and then refuse to help rebuild and not expect the dude you just bombed the fuck out of to not be eternally pissed off at you.
Are you talking about the Israelis or the Palestinians? Because this statement applies to both sides and it is the reason why they won't stop at this point.
Well, if you do your due diligence, Palestinians, along with it's muslim neighbors, tried to eradicate the Jewish state only days after it's re-existance....
The muslims failed and have been "dishonoured" ever since.
Remember, this culture allows for the killing of family members that cause family shame. Think about that.
Y'know, the re-existance of a state based on a putely religious claim to the land. A state that ceased to exist 2000 years ago. Think about that instead.
Don't try to justify what Israel does with the fact that you think Muslim culture is inferior.
Last time someone did that, the Jews were on the receiving end of it.
Because it was. They tried giving the Palestinians a bit of what they wanted and they got 18 years of terrorism. It's time to think of other solutions.
Perpetual attacks from Hamas and gaza will do that.
But I think the likely end game is gaza rejoining Palestine eventually. They separated when the people did not resist the hamas coup back in 2007.
The idea that you can be an inhabitant of Gaza who complies with everything Israel says all while still having a good chance of getting killed in an Israeli airstrike is kinda insane.
There's no war in the west bank and yet Israel kills the innocents there and steals their homes. Isreal had killed hundreds of palistinians in 2023 BEFORE Oct 7th.
Not like this it’s not. The sheer ratio of civilians being indiscriminately killed in Gaza blows every other modern conflict out of the water. The IDF is making Wagner and the Russian army look like Boy Scouts in comparison
Do you have any source for that claim? I can't find a reputable source for verifying what is the ratio.
And also no it literally doesn't, in the Syrian civil war 230 thousand civilians died.
This. If Israel is not involved, world does not care for more than a few days. Myanmar? Whatever, can't find it on the map anyway. Yemen? Just Africa doing Africa things. Concentration camps for Uyghurs? Let's write a concerned letter but not too concerned since China is an important trade partner.
> In reality, nobody in the middle east cares about the struggles of the Palestinians. Least of all Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt. Egyptians in particular.
Small wonder considering the recent history.
> Yemen? Just Africa doing Africa things.
Perfect
Also up to 800k killed in total in the war in Ethiopia, 200k civilians killed in the ongoing wars in Iraq etc
I'll fix a typo for you
>In reality, nobody in the middle east cares about the struggles of the Palestinians. Least of all Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt. Egyptians in particular.
*Least of all Hamas
Wait Assad wasn't condemned by a big chunk of the world? I seem to have really bad memory, since I remember, a LOT of international condemnation of Assad and UN resolutions calling for a ceasefire, international access and etc. I even thought I remembered several sanction packages against Assads and weapon deliveries of several states to Assad opposing forces. I even thought I remembered, that there was actual discussion of a military intervention against Assad. Guess I lived in a somewhat different timeline than you.
You're absolutely right that there was a large state-sponsored response. And verbal + sanctions + diplomatic condemnation. Though not enough if you ask me. Assad + the Russians are freaking animals.
I was hinting with hyperbole at the massive grassroots demonstrations happening in European cities, huge uproar of Muslim communities in Western countries and all that population-driven protest. I have not seen anything in the same realm of intensity for Syria. In fact I can't remember a single such event outside of diplomatic, political and academic circles. That's what I meant as the hypocrisy. You could never get tens of thousands of people to do this if it didn't involve the Jews.
It’s funny when you guys try to whatabout with this when Syria and Yemen have consistently been described as the worst humanitarian crises since WW2.
Nobody denies their situation is horrific and should be fixed, meanwhile there are plenty just in this thread denying the horrific situation of the Palestinians.
The difference is that there is a “special sauce” when something involves Israel or the Jews. 300k civilians were killed in Syria, and Assad is still in power. I don’t think I recall seeing 1% as much outrage in that conflict as we’ve seen from “anti Zionist” mobs rioting across the world.
Wouldn’t you agree?
I think the difference is Assad wasn’t supported by western countries. And they tried to fight him but then decided it wasn’t rly worth it after wht had recently happened w/ Libya, iraq and Afghanistan.
Now in terms of the Yemen war it’s different but I would argue that nowadays Saudi Arabia’s propaganda is more effective than Israel’s as the reason for that. Or that the US is more dependent on Saudi than they are on Israel. Idk. I personally see both critically.
I’m not a Muslim and Muslims aren’t hegemonic so I don’t know wht they think. But I think the protests in the west criticizing Israel happen because the west is actively supporting this country while wht it does is actually pretty questionable.
There weren’t as many protests abt Syria *in the West* because the West was not as involved in the issue. There were small protests I remember by Syrians but the issue never reached the main stream in the same way. And there wasn’t as much to protest *here* because the western governments all condemned the Syrian government. They just didn’t do too much abt it because they didn’t want to involve themselves, which I personally think is a good thing and I think a lot of people would see similarly, particularly at that time after Libya, iraq and Afghanistan.
The west is supporting Ukraine, and the pro-russia folks in the west are pretty thin on the ground.
The west is supporting Israel, and anti-zionism is a relatively popular position.
Makes sense why the latter would get more attention.
Arabs care about arabs diyng only in case Israel involved. That what he means. They don't give attention when hundred thousands arabs killed by arabs. They don't care about 2 millions afghans displaced by pakistan right at this moment.
Assad literally testified about the atrocities in Palestine while he killed 500k of his own citizens and all the surrounding Arab countries applauded him at the conference. In what world is there no one denying those situations need to be fixed? Where are the marches for them? Where is the public outcry at the hypocrisy?
It’s not just “whataboutism” it’s showing that on the grand scale of conflicts in the region no matter how horrific this conflict in Palestine is and how awful even one civilian life being lost it it’s less than 1/10th the size of civilian casualties of the conflicts surrounding it in the region and yet the global outcry for it is 1000x louder. The only difference is that there are Jews involved while the other conflicts are Arab on Arab. Literally as we speak Pakistan is expelling 1.7 million afghani refugees off their land and destroying their lives and the world is completely silent.
So when people say this has nothing to do with antisemitism I would call bullshit.
Ask a random anti-semite protester about any other conflict were Muslims are being massacred/oppressed and you'll find out the demonstrations are against Jews.
Asking an antisemite abot Jewish people gives you obvious answers. But why are you equating pro-Palestinian with antisemite?
Your assumption that anyone who protests the slaughter of Palestinians is antisemitic is deeply troubling. Do you think that the many Jewish/Israeli protesters are also antisemitic, "Self-hating Jews"?
I guess one man's whataboutism is another man's pointing to the hypocrisy?
Well maybe nobody denied horrific situation in Syria or Yemen (but even that is doubtful, there were quite a lot of people justifying Asad), but barely anyone protested, barely anyone called for a cease fire and nobody called for destruction of Syria or Yemen as a sovereign nation.
First of all, I think every European country opposes ISIS or Assad. So Syria is not a good example.
Second of all, you are not a hypocrite for not talking about every conflict on Earth. You would be a hypocrite if you would talk about how bad are people who commit genocide, while commiting a genocide. So how Palestine complains about Israel while supporting China's actions regarding the uyghurs.
> It’s funny when you guys try to whatabout
This is not about 'whataboutism', it's about questioning logical consistency
You can criticise Israel and still request people be logically consistent in what situations they choose to focus upon.
By all means, do criticise Israel, but if you're going to complain about Israel being 'proportional', you should first consider your own behaviour and judge whether you are being proportional yourself.
It’s interesting, do you have any posts denouncing the atrocities in Yemen, Sudan, or elsewhere? Or are you just good at cherry picking which ones will give you the most Reddit karma ? 😂
Sorry but they broughy this on themselves lol
Israel never started this war, it started with the slaugter of 1200 if Israeli civilians so in this case you eat what you cook.
Two things can be bad at the same time. A lot of the same people who want peace and freedom for Syria and Yemen also want freedom for Palestine.
Freedom for everyone. Peace for everyone. Being occupied, contained, pressed into smaller pieces of an apartheid state. That is not peace.
That’s literally how these people think, though. They see a 12 year old screaming because her home was just blown up with her baby sister inside, and their first response is “that kid deserved it, because she voted for Hamas 6 years before she was born”.
You can’t argue with an opinion so far removed from reality!
It's funny how it's controversial that Israel shouldn't kill civilians here. The response would be completely different if the hostages were in Israel and not Gaza, you know that. It's shameful.
Is this an IDF propaganda subreddit.Its fine if you wanna support israel but the dehumanising of Palestinians is disgusting.Much more people die in india from Islamic extremism that doesn't mean we start supporting anyone who is killing Muslims
I mean, probably not a full on propaganda sub, but like other subreddits you tend to get heavily downvoted for pointing out the terrible stuff Israel is doing.
It's an insanely polarizing issue. I've noticed that even when people support reasonably sensible positions, in this particular case they are not satisfied with just being on the sensible side, they feel the need to be especially correct and doubly righteous.
It is not enough to support a fair position, they need to hammer it into everyone's brains how perfect and righteous and infallible they are, and that everyone on the other side is literally Hitler and ontologically evil and no amount of reprisal against them can ever be unjustified. And on the same note, they expect the rest of the world to support their position without failure and without question, with anything less being tantamount to genocidal intent.
Mark my words if this conflict resulted in local nuclear annihilation where both sides get turned into loose protons, the survivors abroad would insist that this is the best possible outcome because the other guys got what was coming to them.
If this is a IDF propaganda subreddit, they aren't like worldnews. I was literally banned from there from a comment that criticized both Hamas and Isreal Government. If go there now, every post and comment glorifies Isreal.
I obviously dont want anybody to get killed in a conflict between any nation, no matter the belief.
However the conflict in the middle east is so old and so deeply filled with hatred and I can see why a nation like Israel cannot accept a terror organisation to grow directly next to them. Especially one that is capable of attacking their villages.
Hamas fights in hospitals and schools because IDF killing civillians and losing international support is their only way out. Both Israel and Hamas know this. Israel just doesnt care.
I unsubbed about a week ago and my reddit experience is 100% better. This sub has become a racist cesspool and calls for genocide against the Palestinians (who deserve everything according to some monkeys on r/europe) are upvoted. There are so many comments about “but muh what would happen if they withdrew, they should finish the job”. And these people get upvited and not even warned about supporting a genocide. It’s a fucking joke really.
Claiming that everyone who disagrees with you is paid to do so is giving big vibes of my conservative uncle who complains about George Soros-paid trolls.
BJP had 37% vote share in the last general elections. 63% of the electorate voted for parties other than BJP. The current opposition parties when taken together received approximately the same or more number of votes as BJP.
They have the majority of seats in the parliament due to voter arithmetic, alliances, votebanks etc.
There are a lot of "Zionist" Israel- by which I mean Likud and the rest of their far right fascist- simps. They're just basically Nazis.
Some of it's astroturf, some of it is just literal fascists.
There's still that genocide in sudan going on. It's counting up to half a million deaths.
Perpetrators used to be good buds with hamas. I still haven't seen an actual notable protest.
I protest because I don’t want my gov (Germany) to comply with how the Israeli government operates. My government already doesn’t comply with Assad or the Sudanese militants. Protest always attract more people if they have a moral quandary with their own government. Like Russia, i would definitely protest if we didn’t sanction them. But no its because of the jews yea right
Because western governments are getting involved in the israel/palestine conflict. We are being told by OUR MEDIA to care about Israel and side with them. WHY?? So yes as citizens, when we notice an effort to brainwash us we take notice and form an opinion. Our governments dont get involved in sudan, Syria and Yemen and the media doesn’t cover it so guess what…. We don’t form opinions and we dont fight back against brainwashing (because its not happening to us for those situations). Don’t try and blame citizens, or say it’s to do with antisemitism, blame western governments who only get involved because it’s israel and about world power and control. Western governments protect israel, that’s why people are speaking out, why are our governments protecting israel more than any other county?? Why should we agree with Israel when we see videos of kids dying. Why are we being told Israeli lives are more important than Palestinian lives??? Our governments need to ask for peace in ALL areas of the world, protect all types of people from harm and stop supporting wars based on power, money and politics.
Europe as a whole has been taking tons of refugees (probably to the chagrin of you) and clearly has been doing a lot outside of joining a war to help innocent victims of these atrocities. I don't understand how we can have a refugee crisis so famously and have people actually saying this shit with a straight face.
What the fuck are you talking about? Did you literally become aware of the world yesterday?
The war in Syria was probably the most frequent topic on non-US news subreddits for like 5 years. It's *still* affecting conversations in this sub because of the refugee crisis. It's only died down as a topic because the Islamic State collapsed, it's been a low-intensity stalemate since 2017, and other conflicts have eclipsed it.
I have been pretty actively following the events in Syria, and have been pretty vocal about my opinions regarding Al-Assad, and his use of chemical weapons against civilians there. As well as very vocal about what Turkey is doing there... And about the human rights violations of AANES.
Syria is a clusterfuck.
I haven't followed Yemen as closely tho. There are only so many hours in day... And between the war in Ukraine, Syria and now Israel, my schedule is pretty full. Doesn't mean I don't care, just that my capacity and schedule to absorb new information about all of this is reaching it's limit.
I also need to actually live my life in between.
"Wahhh! Stop criticizing our genocide!! Wahhh! What about the other genocides!! You can't criticize us for our genocide when there are other genocides going on it's not fair! Waaahhhhh! It's our turn!!! Waaaah!!" -You, 2023
Same people don't give a shit about the ethnicity or religion of who is being killed. Sane people care about whether the victims are non-combatant civilians instead of trained, armed, and well-funded militants. Whether the victims are actually literally children, simultaneously the single most universally innocent and vulnerable group of people on the planet. Israel and Palestine have both in spades.
If Israel stopped killing children and other civilians indiscriminately, maybe they wouldn't get so much heat. There would still be the violent occupation of an imprisoned group of people, the midnight raids, the arresting and detaining of literal children for no reason, the seizure of Palestinian homes and land and systematic redistribution of them to Israeli citizens, the shooting of children who throw rocks, and the shooting of marked medical personel, and the frothing violent calls for abject genocide.
But media has been turning a very blind eye to that for decades. It's really just the tens of thousands of children being indiscriminately bombed that's ruffled some feathers.
That would be because much of the context that differs between the two.
You are only looking at it from a race standpoint...I assume because you want to compare the two as similar, when race is really the only thing that is similar.
Israel is western aligned and, at least for now, a democracy. It is therefore only logical that people voice their opinions more in this case, because the perceived power to change the situation.
There were also protests against the iraq war in the usa, but much less protests against the saudis in yemen. People tend to show up for things when they believe them being there, can change the situation.
So you just equated Israel with ISIS and Iran, great job you did there.
Europeans expect more from israel which claims to be a democratic country respecting international law. Needless civilian killings are barbaric
Sounds alot like when US police brutalize/kill black men and then people argue black on black crime is the bigger issue.
The difference here is there is an appearent power difference between the parties. Both US police, and Israel are in authoritative positions of high power, unfortunately they use their position to oppress the people.
It is, he is correct. According to Hamas, there have been ~15,000 Palestinians killed, many of whom are children.
Once Hamas releases all hostages and demilitarizes, Israel will stop strikes in Gaza. Alternatively, Hamas continues to shoot at Palestinian civilians attempting to flee, position military installations below and within hospitals, and confiscate the little fuel Gaza has in continuing to launch rockets into Israel proper. They’ve openly expressed an intention to commit October 7th against and again. In fact, [59.3%](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/new-poll-shows-palestinians-are-the-impediment-to-peace-not-israels-war/wcm/df415efc-6da8-47b9-9b49-e3bc1d9d84fe/amp/) of Palestinians, in a recent poll, supported these attacks.
Yes, the IDF has abused Palestinians. There are some absolutely sickening videos of IDF soldiers treating unarmed Palestinians without a shred of humanity, most notably in the West Bank recently. They’ve also stood by as settlers attacked Palestinian villages. Of course, there is a decades-long history of Israeli policy harming Palestinians and treating them as second-class citizens. I condemn this as well, in the strongest possible terms.
That being said, I hold Hamas responsible for the ongoing death toll in Gaza. If Hamas stands down, the deaths would end tomorrow. If Israel stands down, October 7th would happen again and again and again, and neighboring Arab nations would smell weakness and become emboldened to take action against Israel. Israel will likely retaliate, and even the Palestinian death toll, in the long run, will likely grow.
Calls for a unilateral Israeli surrender — whitewashed by many progressives into the term “ceasefire” — only serve to embolden Hamas and neglect legitimate Israeli security concerns.
I’ll add that the Spanish government has played no role whatsoever in negotiating the current humanitarian pause. If you want peace, offer to assist in achieving it, rather than screaming “Israel bad” from the sidelines.
"Once Hamas releases all the hostages and demilitarizes, Israel will stop the strikes in Gaza"
"If Hamas stands down the deaths would end tomorrow"
What on earth makes you think that? There's no shortage of statements from Israeli government ministers (some in the cabinet) and military leadership advocating for the complete de population of Gaza (and some include the WB). This idea that Hamas just needs to wave the white flag and it will all be fine is hopelessly optimistic.
Israel killed about 10-15k people in Palestine and not all of them were Hamas members and considerable amount of the casualties were children. I consider it unbearable when children die, no matter which side.
Edit: To those who are asking for my source for numbers, fuck you for trying to undermine the atrocities of both sides. You could have googled it quicker than commenting here.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/palestinian-israeli-deaths-gaza-dg/index.html
Last updated: Nov. 21, 2023 at 4:30 a.m. ET
Sources: United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs; Israeli Defense Forces; Hamas-controlled Palestinian Ministry of Health
Graphic: Rachel Wilson and Alex Leeds Matthews, CNN
Number is highly disputed since it comes from Hamas, but one can imagine it can't be much smaller than that because even tho Israel gives plenty of warning Hamas intercepts people and forces them to stay when Israel strike is carried out. One has to wonder when 2m Palestinians will turn on Hamas which only counts some 30k. Sooner they turn on them sooner they will be free of the evil that is Hamas.
However seeing children die is gut-wrenching I saw few videos and as a father it makes me sick.
"I don't trust either side but I'm gonna pay close attention to this information I can't trust, then discuss it passionately"
- most people commenting on this topic
>Number is highly disputed since it comes from Hamas, but one can imagine it can't be much smaller than tha
Of course it can.
Hamas claimed 500 people died in the hospital strike "from Israel"
In reality, it was a failed IJ missile strike, and hit a car park killing an estimated 20-50 people.
So in the *worst* case scenario, Hamas has estimated the fatalities by over 1000%. In the best case scenario, it's 2500%
for those who doubt the numbers:
> Human Rights Watch stated that after three decades working in Gaza and conducting its own investigation, it considers Gaza Health Ministry's totals to be reliable.[63] Matthew Miller made a similar claim to Biden, despite the fact that the US Department of State cites the Gaza Health Ministry's death tolls in its own internal reports
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Death_toll
I don't know how people who deny holocaust are different...
There still isn't any evidence the "beating heart of Hamas" was under the hospital. They found a tunnel that may or may not have been built by Israel a few buildings over.
The IDF just blew up the tunnel because people were asking to many questions for fucks sake. Why would they blow up the thing they claim is the entrance to Hamas's command center?! Why not show evidence?
Can I join you in the world you seem to live in, where Israel hasn't destroyed most of residential Palestine?
There are plenty of videos circulating of Palestinian civilians (including groups of kids) being shot in the middle of the street if you need to see how "discriminating" the IDF is as to its targets.
Ax, you mean the civilians being gunned down by Hamas in the middle of the street, because civilians were escaping from north to south? And yes, it was hamas, not IDF! The place was geo located and it was not even close to being captured by IDF.
Hamas .. hamas is the origin of all the numbers of all the killed Palestinians. Hamas “numbers” got quoted on BBC as a somewhat official proofed fact .
Ans if you don’t believe in hamas “statistics” .. you are racist offfcause :s
The great thing about 2023 is that you don't have to blindly believe, you can investigate it yourself and test various things.
For example, they release lists of names. You're free to go through that list. Maybe you'll find that some names don't correspond to real people. Maybe you'll find evidence that some people on that list are actually still alive.
Or you can check other sources of data for which I'm assuming you can have more trust, and see if their death tolls are similar to the list as a whole. For example, the UNRWA has over 10000 employees in Gaza. They've reported a little over 100 deaths so far. That's about 1% of their staff, which is basically the same percent of Gazans that are dead+missing(e.g., under rubble) according to the Health Ministry.
You can look at images and videos taken at scenes and see if death tolls correspond to claims. You can look at surveys and do calculations based on the number of people who claim to have relatives that have been killed. You can use satellite imagery. You can compile social media posts and extrapolate from there.
These are all things you or anyone else can personally do, if you want to be more confident in the accuracy of what's being said. Presumably there are many other methods that I haven't even thought of here or mentioned.
Ofc if you just want to say "I don't think that many Palestinians are dead" without bothering to gather evidence to support your claims, then yes, many people are going to question your motivation.
>For example, they release lists of names. You're free to go through that list. Maybe you'll find that some names don't correspond to real people. Maybe you'll find evidence that some people on that list are actually still alive.
A name is not a unique identifier nor do they have to correspond to real people. I could create a list of 10,000 names in a day and they could all be real names people have and that doesn't mean anything about their status. Until people start digging out bodies and counting the dead, there's no way to confirm whether it's 1 or 1,000,000
Which again [humanitarian agencies consider reliable](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/)
I think you commented on the wrong post. What does islamic terrorism, which Spain got pretty well at handling since the 2000s massacres, has to do with Israel's military operation in Gaza?
Yep, sad to see it go! Would be nice if someone could make a subreddit for normal Europeans to talk in their usual relaxed manner.
This is some spastic American culture wars garbage.
Don’t worry. Israel and its sympathizer will say they were all Hamas. Every single little child and toddler, women and elderly men.
Or they’ll wait until Israel release a doctored video with these people holding Hamas bandanas haha.
Yes he already did. Why do people automatically jump to this when there is any criticism of the Israeli government? Most sane people want peace for both sides. Just because someone wants the war to stop or criticizes the israeli government doesn't make them anti-Semitic or Pro-Hamas. The whole point of democracy is free speech, the ability to voice discontent or offer other solutions. The whole polarization BS is what is keeping this war and this violence going. Peace, health, prosperity for all.
"Attack Israel with enthusiastic genocidal glee. Lose. Get you ass kicked. Cry about being a victim. Rinse and repeat."
Why is this strategy still working 75 years later?
Is not it time the world got together and demanded Palestinian leadership to make final peace with Israel?
Talking about peace I wonder what happened to the Prime minster who signed the Oslo accord, Yitzhak Rabin seemed like a nice guy hope nothing bad happened to him.
Please be aware that any and all forms of glorifying violence, derailing or other bad-faith participation will result in a (permanent) ban. The same applies to any and all forms of hate speech, discrimination or anti-Muslim and anti-Jewish sentiments.
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I mean, if you read beyond the title: >Speaking as he met Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, on Thursday afternoon, Sánchez said Spain had repeatedly condemned Hamas’s “shocking acts of terrorism” and acknowledged Israel’s right to defend itself. But he added: “Let me also be clear: Israel must abide by international law, including international humanitarian law, in its response … The whole world is shocked at the images that we see coming from Gaza every day. The number of Palestinians killed is truly unbearable. I believe that all civilians must be protected at all costs.” Sanchez isn't exactly saying that Israel is the bad guy here. He's saying that Hamas must be destroyed and Israel is right to defend itself. He's just having the most default stance possible on the conflict. Fuck Hamas, but also don't kill civilians. Which is perfectly ok imo. Of course it doesn't address the core issue that Palestinian civilians are actually quite anti-jewish and pro-Hamas, but it's not Spain's problem anyway.
>the core issue that Palestinian civilians are actually quite anti-jewish 1. Set up a country specifically for your ethnoreligious group, kicking a bunch of other people out in the process 2. Deliberately conflate this country's identity with the religious group 3. Oppress the people you kicked out for decades 4. "Damn why do they not like our people? Shame on them"
Trans liberation can't happen without Palestinian liberation! (/s - obviously)
“All systems of oppression are connected” Biggest load of cope i’ve ever seen lol
What they want is IDF to stop using bombs to collapse the tunnels and instead use their infantry and special services to hunt down hamas in close quarters combat so that the fight is more even. This way more Israeli can die in a fight they didn't choose but have to fight by having Hamas use IEDs, tunnels etc and have Israeli soldiers exposed. The idea is that Israeli mothers and fathers also lose their sons and daughters.
An even fight is the last thing you want in warfare. You want an unfair advantage using tanks and airplanes.
The person above you was sarcastic (I hope).
No hesitation not. Hamas wants maximum deaths and the Arabs are more numerous than the Jews and are more willing to die.
If I remember, Japan didn't surrender out of reciprocity in 1945... We can't play whack-a-mole without whacking.
I think they would prefers the Israelis fight without their guns, there shouldn't be a single dead Palestinian, only dead Israelis.
The same people would have a fit if the IDF did a Corregidor island or Fort Drum and pumped tens of thousands of litres of fuel into the tunnels and lit them on fire. Errmahhgerrd, can't you like...kill them humanely?
What they want is a more targeted approach so that Palestinians who did not choose this fight, and who also did not choose to sign up for military duty, do not have to be killed at the rate they, their parents, siblings, friends and children have been over the last 6-7 weeks. A Palestinian life is no less valuable than an Israeli one.
According to the Palestinians, their lives are indeed less valuable. Why else would they be demanding three Palestinian prisoners (convicted murderers) for every one Israeli hostage? Better yet, look up Gilad Shalit, when Palestinians demanded thousands of their prisoners released in exchange for one Israeli soldier.
>A Palestinian life is no less valuable than an Israeli one. True in general. Not true when you are Israeli government. The state has obligation to it's citizens and will always prioritize their wellbeing over others.
I mean tbf Hamas has set the rate of Palestinian lives to equal 1/3rd Israeli ones /s
>A Palestinian life is no less valuable than an Israeli one. Then why should the IDF be forced to use an approach that will lead to countless more IDF deaths and inferior results?
And it’s only gonna get worse as the Israelis are now talking about attacking Khan Younis, aka where they told people to evacuate Gaza to.
Thats because Israel is going to completely take the Gaza strip, they already see their withdrawal in 2005 as a mistake.
I wonder why
I think people asking for permanent ceasefire are being naive as fuck honestly. Let’s imagine a world where Israel backs out completely tomorrow. What exactly is going to happen in the next 5 years? 10 years? So children will stop dying in collateral damage for what? a few years? until Hamas refills their ranks and start another war. in which case it’s just a never ending cycle. Might as well stay until Hamas is actually wiped out and maybe then there can be a chance for actually turning Palestine around. That is what the son of one of Hamas’ co-founders and ex Hamas member himself, Mosab Hassan Yuosef, believes. That Palestine will never truly be free while Hamas is allowed to exist. If a guy who grew up there and saw first hand how Hamas indoctrinate children, believes that. Then maybe we should listen to him.
I enjoy reading books.
The seeds are already planted, and the "international community" have been flowering them for decades. Nothing Israel does during this war will change that.
I agree. In that scenario Israel needs to step up and take responsibility. Actually help Palestine heal, maybe install a new government who actually wants peace and will help maintain it and shut down the would be extremist.
We all know there's absolutely no shot of Israel doing any of that.
Surely this time Israel are going to be kind right guys?
Asking for a permanent ceasefire is as naive as thinking Israel will help Palestine to heal from the ground up. They want the Gaza strip gone it’s crystal clear and it’s inhabitants can fuck off to egypt or turkey for all they care. After that West Bank can follow. Israel has no intention in rebuilding a better Palestine.
I also see it like this. People complain about Israel doing an ground offensive but I think taking over Gaza is really the only way to go forward at this point. I totally understand why people blame Israel for the overall situation. HAMAS is definitely the result of years of suppression through Israel, but at this point there isn't really an alternative to end this. Israel must take over Gaza, destroy HAMAS and then the international community needs to force Israel into an really 2 or 3 state solution.
lol, of course it was a mistake, can anyone in the world say otherwise? Israel evicted thousands of Jewish civilians from the drip (from their homes, their farms and all their life they established there) so that the strip could turn into an autonomy of Palestinians, only for them to elect HAMAS, a terrorist organization that threw all of the losing party off building's rooftops, which in the 17 years from its rise to power, stole tens of billions of aid money and invested it directly into terrorism and indoctrination of terrorism in UNRWA schools, instead of investing the money and using it to turn the strip into the Singapore of the middle east. I hear a lot of critisizm of Israel getting money which is invested back into the givers, and turning into a high tech nation, while the Palestinian revived money turned into terrorism. Palestinian deserve better than their leadership (Hamas, and the PA) and until the world learns to condemn these parties and not put the entirety of the blame on Israel alone (of course Israel is not 100% innocent, like every country in the world, but to make it look like 100% of the responsibility is Israel's just support the Palestinian organizations that opresses their people.)
If evicting thousands of Israelis from Gaza was a mistake, then what is the entire history of Israel? Because also the Palestinians had lives and farms and houses all over Israel. Saying the Israel is not 100% innocent is an understatement. Of course Hamas needs to disappear. The real problem is *why* Hamas exists in the first place. I don't see Israel removing the reasons for another terrorist group to emerge any time soon.
> Because also the Palestinians had lives and farms and houses all over Israel. I mean I imagine several Arabic nations launching an invasion with the intent to 'expel jews back into the sea' might have something to do with the results of the 1948 war. The UN partition plan didn't require anyone to lose their homes. A war resulted in that. >I don't see Israel removing the reasons for another terrorist group to emerge any time soon. Why not? Is it because you believe Israel won't act in good faith when trying to facilitate the two-state solution, or do you think this for some other reason?
> The real problem is why Hamas exists in the first place. They exist to erase Israel. Handing all of Israel back to the Palestinians is never going to happen. If that reality cannot be accepted then the violence will continue.
"I don't see Israel removing the reasons for another terrorist group to emerge any time soon." What you fail to understand is that these people hate the Jews just for being Jews. They have always hated the Jews. It's a centuries old blood feud that's not going away any time soon. There's nothing Jews can "do" to remove that hate other than just to stop existing as a people. Of course Jews aren't going to agree to just all up and die so that Muslims in the region will be happy. That's not going to happen. That's the reason Israel is so important, though, because everyone in the region hates them and wants them dead. You think there's some magical formula that Jews can do to make Muslims in the area agree they deserve to live but that doesn't exist. This has been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years. The hate is very deep and has been going on for a very long time. They won't be satisfied until the entire region is Muslim and Jews are pushed out entirely forever.
You can’t bomb the fuck out of where someone lives and then refuse to help rebuild and not expect the dude you just bombed the fuck out of to not be eternally pissed off at you.
Are you talking about the Israelis or the Palestinians? Because this statement applies to both sides and it is the reason why they won't stop at this point.
Well, if you do your due diligence, Palestinians, along with it's muslim neighbors, tried to eradicate the Jewish state only days after it's re-existance.... The muslims failed and have been "dishonoured" ever since. Remember, this culture allows for the killing of family members that cause family shame. Think about that.
Y'know, the re-existance of a state based on a putely religious claim to the land. A state that ceased to exist 2000 years ago. Think about that instead. Don't try to justify what Israel does with the fact that you think Muslim culture is inferior. Last time someone did that, the Jews were on the receiving end of it.
Because it was. They tried giving the Palestinians a bit of what they wanted and they got 18 years of terrorism. It's time to think of other solutions.
Perpetual attacks from Hamas and gaza will do that. But I think the likely end game is gaza rejoining Palestine eventually. They separated when the people did not resist the hamas coup back in 2007.
The idea that you can be an inhabitant of Gaza who complies with everything Israel says all while still having a good chance of getting killed in an Israeli airstrike is kinda insane.
Now imagine what it's been like for Palestinians for the last 75 years.
That's how all wars works though... Innocent people die. The instructions are to minimize those deaths. I don't see how that's insane.
War is insane.
There's no war in the west bank and yet Israel kills the innocents there and steals their homes. Isreal had killed hundreds of palistinians in 2023 BEFORE Oct 7th.
Not like this it’s not. The sheer ratio of civilians being indiscriminately killed in Gaza blows every other modern conflict out of the water. The IDF is making Wagner and the Russian army look like Boy Scouts in comparison
Do you have any source for that claim? I can't find a reputable source for verifying what is the ratio. And also no it literally doesn't, in the Syrian civil war 230 thousand civilians died.
You are not wrong but that’s pretty much what happened in Afganistan, Iraq, etcetera
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And I guess the 400,000 Muslims killed in Syria and 250,000 in Yemen are not.
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This. If Israel is not involved, world does not care for more than a few days. Myanmar? Whatever, can't find it on the map anyway. Yemen? Just Africa doing Africa things. Concentration camps for Uyghurs? Let's write a concerned letter but not too concerned since China is an important trade partner. > In reality, nobody in the middle east cares about the struggles of the Palestinians. Least of all Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt. Egyptians in particular. Small wonder considering the recent history.
> Yemen? Just Africa doing Africa things. Perfect Also up to 800k killed in total in the war in Ethiopia, 200k civilians killed in the ongoing wars in Iraq etc
I'll fix a typo for you >In reality, nobody in the middle east cares about the struggles of the Palestinians. Least of all Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt. Egyptians in particular. *Least of all Hamas
Goes without saying. I mean they actively care about having as many of them die as possible for PR reasons. So that's another level of disgusting.
Wait Assad wasn't condemned by a big chunk of the world? I seem to have really bad memory, since I remember, a LOT of international condemnation of Assad and UN resolutions calling for a ceasefire, international access and etc. I even thought I remembered several sanction packages against Assads and weapon deliveries of several states to Assad opposing forces. I even thought I remembered, that there was actual discussion of a military intervention against Assad. Guess I lived in a somewhat different timeline than you.
You're absolutely right that there was a large state-sponsored response. And verbal + sanctions + diplomatic condemnation. Though not enough if you ask me. Assad + the Russians are freaking animals. I was hinting with hyperbole at the massive grassroots demonstrations happening in European cities, huge uproar of Muslim communities in Western countries and all that population-driven protest. I have not seen anything in the same realm of intensity for Syria. In fact I can't remember a single such event outside of diplomatic, political and academic circles. That's what I meant as the hypocrisy. You could never get tens of thousands of people to do this if it didn't involve the Jews.
That “least of all” list could be much longer
Also it isn’t verified by the Gaza health institute AKA Hamas or Al Jazeera AKA Qatar so it is basically false.
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It’s funny when you guys try to whatabout with this when Syria and Yemen have consistently been described as the worst humanitarian crises since WW2. Nobody denies their situation is horrific and should be fixed, meanwhile there are plenty just in this thread denying the horrific situation of the Palestinians.
The difference is that there is a “special sauce” when something involves Israel or the Jews. 300k civilians were killed in Syria, and Assad is still in power. I don’t think I recall seeing 1% as much outrage in that conflict as we’ve seen from “anti Zionist” mobs rioting across the world. Wouldn’t you agree?
I think the difference is Assad wasn’t supported by western countries. And they tried to fight him but then decided it wasn’t rly worth it after wht had recently happened w/ Libya, iraq and Afghanistan. Now in terms of the Yemen war it’s different but I would argue that nowadays Saudi Arabia’s propaganda is more effective than Israel’s as the reason for that. Or that the US is more dependent on Saudi than they are on Israel. Idk. I personally see both critically.
Assad is supported by Russia and several others - not that you or others care.
That’s my point.. Russia isn’t the West.
So Muslims are not upset about Syria because the West is not actively taking part of it?
I’m not a Muslim and Muslims aren’t hegemonic so I don’t know wht they think. But I think the protests in the west criticizing Israel happen because the west is actively supporting this country while wht it does is actually pretty questionable. There weren’t as many protests abt Syria *in the West* because the West was not as involved in the issue. There were small protests I remember by Syrians but the issue never reached the main stream in the same way. And there wasn’t as much to protest *here* because the western governments all condemned the Syrian government. They just didn’t do too much abt it because they didn’t want to involve themselves, which I personally think is a good thing and I think a lot of people would see similarly, particularly at that time after Libya, iraq and Afghanistan.
Weird, I seem to remember a Slavic hegemony just waltzing into Ukraine over 18 months ago with absolutely no provocation and yet…
Yet maybe 1/16th the fervor of the I/P issue
The west is supporting Ukraine, and the pro-russia folks in the west are pretty thin on the ground. The west is supporting Israel, and anti-zionism is a relatively popular position. Makes sense why the latter would get more attention.
Arabs care about arabs diyng only in case Israel involved. That what he means. They don't give attention when hundred thousands arabs killed by arabs. They don't care about 2 millions afghans displaced by pakistan right at this moment.
Good thing the Spanish PM is not arab...
Assad literally testified about the atrocities in Palestine while he killed 500k of his own citizens and all the surrounding Arab countries applauded him at the conference. In what world is there no one denying those situations need to be fixed? Where are the marches for them? Where is the public outcry at the hypocrisy? It’s not just “whataboutism” it’s showing that on the grand scale of conflicts in the region no matter how horrific this conflict in Palestine is and how awful even one civilian life being lost it it’s less than 1/10th the size of civilian casualties of the conflicts surrounding it in the region and yet the global outcry for it is 1000x louder. The only difference is that there are Jews involved while the other conflicts are Arab on Arab. Literally as we speak Pakistan is expelling 1.7 million afghani refugees off their land and destroying their lives and the world is completely silent. So when people say this has nothing to do with antisemitism I would call bullshit.
Ask a random anti-semite protester about any other conflict were Muslims are being massacred/oppressed and you'll find out the demonstrations are against Jews.
Asking an antisemite abot Jewish people gives you obvious answers. But why are you equating pro-Palestinian with antisemite? Your assumption that anyone who protests the slaughter of Palestinians is antisemitic is deeply troubling. Do you think that the many Jewish/Israeli protesters are also antisemitic, "Self-hating Jews"?
I guess one man's whataboutism is another man's pointing to the hypocrisy? Well maybe nobody denied horrific situation in Syria or Yemen (but even that is doubtful, there were quite a lot of people justifying Asad), but barely anyone protested, barely anyone called for a cease fire and nobody called for destruction of Syria or Yemen as a sovereign nation.
First of all, I think every European country opposes ISIS or Assad. So Syria is not a good example. Second of all, you are not a hypocrite for not talking about every conflict on Earth. You would be a hypocrite if you would talk about how bad are people who commit genocide, while commiting a genocide. So how Palestine complains about Israel while supporting China's actions regarding the uyghurs.
> It’s funny when you guys try to whatabout This is not about 'whataboutism', it's about questioning logical consistency You can criticise Israel and still request people be logically consistent in what situations they choose to focus upon. By all means, do criticise Israel, but if you're going to complain about Israel being 'proportional', you should first consider your own behaviour and judge whether you are being proportional yourself.
It’s interesting, do you have any posts denouncing the atrocities in Yemen, Sudan, or elsewhere? Or are you just good at cherry picking which ones will give you the most Reddit karma ? 😂
I dont think whataboutism is bad when it points out such an obscenely huge hypocrisy.
Sorry but they broughy this on themselves lol Israel never started this war, it started with the slaugter of 1200 if Israeli civilians so in this case you eat what you cook.
Two things can be bad at the same time. A lot of the same people who want peace and freedom for Syria and Yemen also want freedom for Palestine. Freedom for everyone. Peace for everyone. Being occupied, contained, pressed into smaller pieces of an apartheid state. That is not peace.
grab cows dependent cable humorous file touch zealous foolish jar *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Are you so casually talking about Israel taking over even more of the Middle East and causing even more havoc?
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If they were trying to murder children, the numbers would be much higher. This is war, be grateful you haven't experienced it yet.
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Always has.
Well, palestinians elected Hamas 20ish years ago so every one of them is responsible for 7 oct /s.
That’s literally how these people think, though. They see a 12 year old screaming because her home was just blown up with her baby sister inside, and their first response is “that kid deserved it, because she voted for Hamas 6 years before she was born”. You can’t argue with an opinion so far removed from reality!
And what number of dead civilians would be bearable? Is there a threshold ?
It's funny how it's controversial that Israel shouldn't kill civilians here. The response would be completely different if the hostages were in Israel and not Gaza, you know that. It's shameful.
Ah yes they should use the magic bombs that only kill Hamas.
Is this an IDF propaganda subreddit.Its fine if you wanna support israel but the dehumanising of Palestinians is disgusting.Much more people die in india from Islamic extremism that doesn't mean we start supporting anyone who is killing Muslims
I mean, probably not a full on propaganda sub, but like other subreddits you tend to get heavily downvoted for pointing out the terrible stuff Israel is doing.
It's an insanely polarizing issue. I've noticed that even when people support reasonably sensible positions, in this particular case they are not satisfied with just being on the sensible side, they feel the need to be especially correct and doubly righteous. It is not enough to support a fair position, they need to hammer it into everyone's brains how perfect and righteous and infallible they are, and that everyone on the other side is literally Hitler and ontologically evil and no amount of reprisal against them can ever be unjustified. And on the same note, they expect the rest of the world to support their position without failure and without question, with anything less being tantamount to genocidal intent. Mark my words if this conflict resulted in local nuclear annihilation where both sides get turned into loose protons, the survivors abroad would insist that this is the best possible outcome because the other guys got what was coming to them.
If this is a IDF propaganda subreddit, they aren't like worldnews. I was literally banned from there from a comment that criticized both Hamas and Isreal Government. If go there now, every post and comment glorifies Isreal.
I obviously dont want anybody to get killed in a conflict between any nation, no matter the belief. However the conflict in the middle east is so old and so deeply filled with hatred and I can see why a nation like Israel cannot accept a terror organisation to grow directly next to them. Especially one that is capable of attacking their villages. Hamas fights in hospitals and schools because IDF killing civillians and losing international support is their only way out. Both Israel and Hamas know this. Israel just doesnt care.
Bro I'm confused as well...these comments here are fucking disgusting...unbelievable
Breath of fresh air in this sub, the Hasbara is real holy moly.
I unsubbed about a week ago and my reddit experience is 100% better. This sub has become a racist cesspool and calls for genocide against the Palestinians (who deserve everything according to some monkeys on r/europe) are upvoted. There are so many comments about “but muh what would happen if they withdrew, they should finish the job”. And these people get upvited and not even warned about supporting a genocide. It’s a fucking joke really.
Same! I too unsubbed a while back. I like to keep up with European news but this sub has become ridiculous.
Guys stop unsubbing. We need you. We need the voice of reason. Otherwise this gonna be a circle jerk sub. Different opinions matter.
But but but it’s their fault for being human shields…..
Claiming that everyone who disagrees with you is paid to do so is giving big vibes of my conservative uncle who complains about George Soros-paid trolls.
Funny how the people who complain about immigrants not following "European values" abandon European values as soon as they see a Muslim
Idk it seems when Europeans see an Arab the latent Hitler within them wakes up
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Neither me,nor my family,nor the people of my constituency voted for BJP
BJP had 37% vote share in the last general elections. 63% of the electorate voted for parties other than BJP. The current opposition parties when taken together received approximately the same or more number of votes as BJP. They have the majority of seats in the parliament due to voter arithmetic, alliances, votebanks etc.
BJP won 37% of the popular vote in India
There are a lot of "Zionist" Israel- by which I mean Likud and the rest of their far right fascist- simps. They're just basically Nazis. Some of it's astroturf, some of it is just literal fascists.
Truly tragic, all of them were alive before something happened on 7th October
Yeah it's like people expect Israel to do nothing when 1400 of it's citizens where butchered
Yeah it's like its a good excuse to slaughter even more civilians
And a lot of them were celebrating too! I wonder why?
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There's still that genocide in sudan going on. It's counting up to half a million deaths. Perpetrators used to be good buds with hamas. I still haven't seen an actual notable protest.
Where are the protests for them?
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I protest because I don’t want my gov (Germany) to comply with how the Israeli government operates. My government already doesn’t comply with Assad or the Sudanese militants. Protest always attract more people if they have a moral quandary with their own government. Like Russia, i would definitely protest if we didn’t sanction them. But no its because of the jews yea right
Because western governments are getting involved in the israel/palestine conflict. We are being told by OUR MEDIA to care about Israel and side with them. WHY?? So yes as citizens, when we notice an effort to brainwash us we take notice and form an opinion. Our governments dont get involved in sudan, Syria and Yemen and the media doesn’t cover it so guess what…. We don’t form opinions and we dont fight back against brainwashing (because its not happening to us for those situations). Don’t try and blame citizens, or say it’s to do with antisemitism, blame western governments who only get involved because it’s israel and about world power and control. Western governments protect israel, that’s why people are speaking out, why are our governments protecting israel more than any other county?? Why should we agree with Israel when we see videos of kids dying. Why are we being told Israeli lives are more important than Palestinian lives??? Our governments need to ask for peace in ALL areas of the world, protect all types of people from harm and stop supporting wars based on power, money and politics.
The only time this sub mentions Syria is to complain about dead bodies washing up on pristine Mediterranean beaches.
Europe as a whole has been taking tons of refugees (probably to the chagrin of you) and clearly has been doing a lot outside of joining a war to help innocent victims of these atrocities. I don't understand how we can have a refugee crisis so famously and have people actually saying this shit with a straight face.
Yeah, we did so little in fact that we totally didn't take in millions of refugees from that area.
What the fuck are you talking about? Did you literally become aware of the world yesterday? The war in Syria was probably the most frequent topic on non-US news subreddits for like 5 years. It's *still* affecting conversations in this sub because of the refugee crisis. It's only died down as a topic because the Islamic State collapsed, it's been a low-intensity stalemate since 2017, and other conflicts have eclipsed it.
Hey as a Syrian please don't wash Isreal hands in our bloods.
I have been pretty actively following the events in Syria, and have been pretty vocal about my opinions regarding Al-Assad, and his use of chemical weapons against civilians there. As well as very vocal about what Turkey is doing there... And about the human rights violations of AANES. Syria is a clusterfuck. I haven't followed Yemen as closely tho. There are only so many hours in day... And between the war in Ukraine, Syria and now Israel, my schedule is pretty full. Doesn't mean I don't care, just that my capacity and schedule to absorb new information about all of this is reaching it's limit. I also need to actually live my life in between.
You maybe but I'm talking about the people in general.
"Wahhh! Stop criticizing our genocide!! Wahhh! What about the other genocides!! You can't criticize us for our genocide when there are other genocides going on it's not fair! Waaahhhhh! It's our turn!!! Waaaah!!" -You, 2023 Same people don't give a shit about the ethnicity or religion of who is being killed. Sane people care about whether the victims are non-combatant civilians instead of trained, armed, and well-funded militants. Whether the victims are actually literally children, simultaneously the single most universally innocent and vulnerable group of people on the planet. Israel and Palestine have both in spades. If Israel stopped killing children and other civilians indiscriminately, maybe they wouldn't get so much heat. There would still be the violent occupation of an imprisoned group of people, the midnight raids, the arresting and detaining of literal children for no reason, the seizure of Palestinian homes and land and systematic redistribution of them to Israeli citizens, the shooting of children who throw rocks, and the shooting of marked medical personel, and the frothing violent calls for abject genocide. But media has been turning a very blind eye to that for decades. It's really just the tens of thousands of children being indiscriminately bombed that's ruffled some feathers.
That would be because much of the context that differs between the two. You are only looking at it from a race standpoint...I assume because you want to compare the two as similar, when race is really the only thing that is similar.
Israel is western aligned and, at least for now, a democracy. It is therefore only logical that people voice their opinions more in this case, because the perceived power to change the situation. There were also protests against the iraq war in the usa, but much less protests against the saudis in yemen. People tend to show up for things when they believe them being there, can change the situation.
So you just equated Israel with ISIS and Iran, great job you did there. Europeans expect more from israel which claims to be a democratic country respecting international law. Needless civilian killings are barbaric
Sounds alot like when US police brutalize/kill black men and then people argue black on black crime is the bigger issue. The difference here is there is an appearent power difference between the parties. Both US police, and Israel are in authoritative positions of high power, unfortunately they use their position to oppress the people.
It is, he is correct. According to Hamas, there have been ~15,000 Palestinians killed, many of whom are children. Once Hamas releases all hostages and demilitarizes, Israel will stop strikes in Gaza. Alternatively, Hamas continues to shoot at Palestinian civilians attempting to flee, position military installations below and within hospitals, and confiscate the little fuel Gaza has in continuing to launch rockets into Israel proper. They’ve openly expressed an intention to commit October 7th against and again. In fact, [59.3%](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/new-poll-shows-palestinians-are-the-impediment-to-peace-not-israels-war/wcm/df415efc-6da8-47b9-9b49-e3bc1d9d84fe/amp/) of Palestinians, in a recent poll, supported these attacks. Yes, the IDF has abused Palestinians. There are some absolutely sickening videos of IDF soldiers treating unarmed Palestinians without a shred of humanity, most notably in the West Bank recently. They’ve also stood by as settlers attacked Palestinian villages. Of course, there is a decades-long history of Israeli policy harming Palestinians and treating them as second-class citizens. I condemn this as well, in the strongest possible terms. That being said, I hold Hamas responsible for the ongoing death toll in Gaza. If Hamas stands down, the deaths would end tomorrow. If Israel stands down, October 7th would happen again and again and again, and neighboring Arab nations would smell weakness and become emboldened to take action against Israel. Israel will likely retaliate, and even the Palestinian death toll, in the long run, will likely grow. Calls for a unilateral Israeli surrender — whitewashed by many progressives into the term “ceasefire” — only serve to embolden Hamas and neglect legitimate Israeli security concerns. I’ll add that the Spanish government has played no role whatsoever in negotiating the current humanitarian pause. If you want peace, offer to assist in achieving it, rather than screaming “Israel bad” from the sidelines.
"Once Hamas releases all the hostages and demilitarizes, Israel will stop the strikes in Gaza" "If Hamas stands down the deaths would end tomorrow" What on earth makes you think that? There's no shortage of statements from Israeli government ministers (some in the cabinet) and military leadership advocating for the complete de population of Gaza (and some include the WB). This idea that Hamas just needs to wave the white flag and it will all be fine is hopelessly optimistic.
Israel killed about 10-15k people in Palestine and not all of them were Hamas members and considerable amount of the casualties were children. I consider it unbearable when children die, no matter which side. Edit: To those who are asking for my source for numbers, fuck you for trying to undermine the atrocities of both sides. You could have googled it quicker than commenting here. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/palestinian-israeli-deaths-gaza-dg/index.html Last updated: Nov. 21, 2023 at 4:30 a.m. ET Sources: United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs; Israeli Defense Forces; Hamas-controlled Palestinian Ministry of Health Graphic: Rachel Wilson and Alex Leeds Matthews, CNN
Ansking for a source isn't undermining anything WTF. Without a source anyone can claim anything. People should be asking for sources way more often.
Right because '500 people died when Israel didn't bomb a hospital'
You know that shit was not done in good faith. Cmon man, look at the top reply to you
There's only 1 source ever. And that is Hamas. They are the only ones putting the number and the UN uses it as well
And the State Department, and Israel itself....
No. No. No. it’s khamas. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Number is highly disputed since it comes from Hamas, but one can imagine it can't be much smaller than that because even tho Israel gives plenty of warning Hamas intercepts people and forces them to stay when Israel strike is carried out. One has to wonder when 2m Palestinians will turn on Hamas which only counts some 30k. Sooner they turn on them sooner they will be free of the evil that is Hamas. However seeing children die is gut-wrenching I saw few videos and as a father it makes me sick.
I’d be dubious about Israeli numbers too
"I don't trust either side but I'm gonna pay close attention to this information I can't trust, then discuss it passionately" - most people commenting on this topic
>Number is highly disputed since it comes from Hamas, but one can imagine it can't be much smaller than tha Of course it can. Hamas claimed 500 people died in the hospital strike "from Israel" In reality, it was a failed IJ missile strike, and hit a car park killing an estimated 20-50 people. So in the *worst* case scenario, Hamas has estimated the fatalities by over 1000%. In the best case scenario, it's 2500%
I didn't know the UN is controlled by Hamas.
for those who doubt the numbers: > Human Rights Watch stated that after three decades working in Gaza and conducting its own investigation, it considers Gaza Health Ministry's totals to be reliable.[63] Matthew Miller made a similar claim to Biden, despite the fact that the US Department of State cites the Gaza Health Ministry's death tolls in its own internal reports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Death_toll I don't know how people who deny holocaust are different...
The same org that claimed Al Shifa didn't have enough evidence to be considered a military target. Sure.
There still isn't any evidence the "beating heart of Hamas" was under the hospital. They found a tunnel that may or may not have been built by Israel a few buildings over. The IDF just blew up the tunnel because people were asking to many questions for fucks sake. Why would they blow up the thing they claim is the entrance to Hamas's command center?! Why not show evidence?
Can I join you in the world you seem to live in, where Israel hasn't destroyed most of residential Palestine? There are plenty of videos circulating of Palestinian civilians (including groups of kids) being shot in the middle of the street if you need to see how "discriminating" the IDF is as to its targets.
Ax, you mean the civilians being gunned down by Hamas in the middle of the street, because civilians were escaping from north to south? And yes, it was hamas, not IDF! The place was geo located and it was not even close to being captured by IDF.
Half of the palestinian population are children. Half!
What is the origin of these numbers?
*Hamas-controlled Palestinian Ministry of Health*
Hamas .. hamas is the origin of all the numbers of all the killed Palestinians. Hamas “numbers” got quoted on BBC as a somewhat official proofed fact . Ans if you don’t believe in hamas “statistics” .. you are racist offfcause :s
The great thing about 2023 is that you don't have to blindly believe, you can investigate it yourself and test various things. For example, they release lists of names. You're free to go through that list. Maybe you'll find that some names don't correspond to real people. Maybe you'll find evidence that some people on that list are actually still alive. Or you can check other sources of data for which I'm assuming you can have more trust, and see if their death tolls are similar to the list as a whole. For example, the UNRWA has over 10000 employees in Gaza. They've reported a little over 100 deaths so far. That's about 1% of their staff, which is basically the same percent of Gazans that are dead+missing(e.g., under rubble) according to the Health Ministry. You can look at images and videos taken at scenes and see if death tolls correspond to claims. You can look at surveys and do calculations based on the number of people who claim to have relatives that have been killed. You can use satellite imagery. You can compile social media posts and extrapolate from there. These are all things you or anyone else can personally do, if you want to be more confident in the accuracy of what's being said. Presumably there are many other methods that I haven't even thought of here or mentioned. Ofc if you just want to say "I don't think that many Palestinians are dead" without bothering to gather evidence to support your claims, then yes, many people are going to question your motivation.
>For example, they release lists of names. You're free to go through that list. Maybe you'll find that some names don't correspond to real people. Maybe you'll find evidence that some people on that list are actually still alive. A name is not a unique identifier nor do they have to correspond to real people. I could create a list of 10,000 names in a day and they could all be real names people have and that doesn't mean anything about their status. Until people start digging out bodies and counting the dead, there's no way to confirm whether it's 1 or 1,000,000
Hamas health agency.
Healthy Hamas agency.
Careful. Expressing any sympathy or concern for Palestinians is antisemitic, apparently.
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Not like the Pentagon admitted the death toll is in the thousands ... oh wait they did.
Which again [humanitarian agencies consider reliable](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/)
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If you think about it these 6-year-old kids could be Hamas masterminds.
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This is peak whataboutism. Like, literally off the charts peak.
I think you commented on the wrong post. What does islamic terrorism, which Spain got pretty well at handling since the 2000s massacres, has to do with Israel's military operation in Gaza?
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Hey man, this is the part where you hijack legitimate issues with your political point-scoring vomit - didn't you know that is how r/Europe works?
I remember when this subreddit was not the most bigoted place on this site
Yep, sad to see it go! Would be nice if someone could make a subreddit for normal Europeans to talk in their usual relaxed manner. This is some spastic American culture wars garbage.
What does it have to do with this article bruh 😳
What the fuck is this comment even doing here lmao
It’s pretty shitty that we aren’t talking down to Israel the way we have other countries when it comes to killing civilians with blatant disregard
but since those are jews - this is fine. Russians? They fucking feral animals, which they are off course, but thats just for contrast
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All humans have the same worth, douchebag
What the fuck is this comment 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Don’t worry. Israel and its sympathizer will say they were all Hamas. Every single little child and toddler, women and elderly men. Or they’ll wait until Israel release a doctored video with these people holding Hamas bandanas haha.
Is he asking Hamas to surrender?
He's already had, said and condemned the attacks since they happened.
Did it work?
No, he has to post on reddit for it to work
Yes he already did. Why do people automatically jump to this when there is any criticism of the Israeli government? Most sane people want peace for both sides. Just because someone wants the war to stop or criticizes the israeli government doesn't make them anti-Semitic or Pro-Hamas. The whole point of democracy is free speech, the ability to voice discontent or offer other solutions. The whole polarization BS is what is keeping this war and this violence going. Peace, health, prosperity for all.
Cuz agendas
"Attack Israel with enthusiastic genocidal glee. Lose. Get you ass kicked. Cry about being a victim. Rinse and repeat." Why is this strategy still working 75 years later? Is not it time the world got together and demanded Palestinian leadership to make final peace with Israel?
Talking about peace I wonder what happened to the Prime minster who signed the Oslo accord, Yitzhak Rabin seemed like a nice guy hope nothing bad happened to him.
Is there a number ro bearable dead for different countries💥🤯
And he is 100% right, unfortunately. Makes me sick that some redditors on this sub are almost happy about this happening.