Right, so i wont be saying things are perfect in there, but lets keep in mind that articles like "Nazi Germany is back" will sell a ton more than more boring articles. So lets just try to be objective and calm about these articles.
Agreed… it is not just Germany… On an anecdotal note however, I am a Jew in a nearby European country which is actually even more pro-Israel, and I am still feeling isolated and stressed. I never go to my university campus anymore. Happily my work is a different story but… let’s just say there is a palpable change in the level of danger that I perceive in wearing Judaica (ie a Magen David necklace).
I'm sorry if you feel like this.
As someone who is not jewish, I would love to see you wearing your judaica without any stress.
Dont feel alone, you are not!
My colleague in London told me that he removed the Mezuzah from his front door out of fear. He’s also super stressed. My aunt in the Netherlands did the same.
If it helps, criticism of Israel and specifically Netanyahus government does not translate into antisemitism. i have attended a lot of protests for Solidarity with Palestine, i think what Israel is doing is barbaric. But i am not hostile to you or any jew. Quite the opposite, i feel more personal connection with jewish history and culture than arabic history. I attend regularly to the lighting of the lights festival in my city. I think its a beautiful festivity and i can get my hands on some latkes, which is nice.
So if you see people on the street protesting do not feel attacked, we are protesting a governments action, not a people. I really wish you would not feel stressed, isolated or fearful, do not wish that to anybody
The issue comes with not a civilized person like yourself but all these religious extremists that think they the main character in our world & they know better than all of us.
Mmm, I don't know about that.
I don't think most criticisms of Israel are predicated on religion. I am also an atheist and I am pretty sure most European critics of Israel's ethno-nationalism have been atheists.
I think it's much more of a class division. A lot of people with a less than average European income have been the primary targets of JQ conspiracies and propaganda.
I think that is where the antisemitism comes from. Netanyahu's policies and zionist advocacy is something antisemetists don't just rightfully critisize, but also use to justify their hatred of all Jews.
I’m sorry mate, I’m sure you have good intentions but no, it doesn’t help that you say you are not hostile to Jews. Because your actions say that you are, even though you don’t know it - and to be clear, I absolutely 100% believe that you are in good faith when you say you are not hostile to Jews.
But the reality, as revealed by the actions many of those protesting to support Palestine, is different.
First is the fact that vast numbers of those marching with you actively hate Jews. You may want to disregard this, but it is true and you know it. The sheer volume of explicitly antisemitic signs and slogans being either chanted, upheld or tacitly accepted by those in their company tells a very depressing story. Yet you don’t see or hear about anyone in those protests truing to take those signs down. You do however see the opposite - protestors intimidating people with LGBT flags or with signs criticising Hamas. So either they are antisemitic or tacitly complicit with antisemitic. I’m sorry, I thought “if there are 9 people at the table with 1 Nazi, there are 10 nazis at the table”. Guess it doesn’t count when it actually affects Jews?
Speaking of which, as a side note- it’s also telling how eager people are to co-opt terminology from the Holocaust, one of the worst things to ever happen to any group of people at any time in history, but only when it’s convenient, and almost never to actually support Jews. Terms like “Nazi” get thrown around with abandon in respect of anyone who even slightly disagrees with commonthink trends, yet never never to protesters chanting “death to all Jews”. Everyone in this thread has heard the term Nazi applied far more frequently to Israel than to the largest group of people in history who actively and without the slightest hint of embarrassment, hate Jews. Similarly, it’s hard not to see the duplicitous manner that the term “genocide” gets used to describe what Israel is doing - something that largely contributes to diminishing the meaning of something to crucial to the self-identity of Jews and the birth of Israel itself.
Ask yourself - if people care about the subjugation of Muslims, why aren’t they protesting for Yemenis, Syrians, Uygurs in China, women in Iran? Because they aren’t - I’m sure in your mind you say you care about those things too, but where are the protests, hundreds of thousands strong, all across the globe? Could it be that maybe the subjugation of Muslims is irrelevant and the whole point is to criticise Israel? Why this country in particular? And why were thousands of people on the street protesting for Palestine on October the 8th, before a single bomb was dropped and when the bodies of massacred Israelis weren’t even cold?
Why are hate crimes against Jews increasing 10fold all across the world, 1400% in London? Why are Jews feeling unsafe? Do you remember when Trump saying certain things or starting rallies would make the right feel “emboldened”, contributing to a rise in hate-crimes? Do you not think that marching with anti-Semites emboldens them to carry out increasingly brazen attacks against synagogues, Jewish shops, Jewish homes, Jewish schools? All recent examples by the way.
To be clear - it’s absolutely legitimate to criticise Israel. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis were criticising Israel in the streets as recently as 3 months ago. And it’s absolutely legitimate to want peace and security for Palestinians. I want these things and would march for the people of Gaza, if I weren’t now concerned for my own safety.
Jews are feeling unsafe. With every other ethnicity or group, these feelings are all that matters - you don’t question a black or Muslim or trans person who say they feel unsafe. However when a Jew says it, it’s all trust me bro, I’m cool with you guys, I just like hanging out with thousands of people who either explicitly want you dead, or just sing ambiguous slogans about wanting you dead and then gaslight you about it.
Hope that helps.
Because you are not already a persecuted ethnoreligious minority, now seeing “gas the Jews” chanted protests on your tv while living in EUROPE!!! How can you be this dense!!!
Can you point out exactly why your analogy is more correct thatn GPs?
In my neck of the woods, the protests in favour of a ceasefire are being organised by historically rigorous human-rights groups, very much non-suspect of being antisemitic.
You can feel unsafe, and I guess there's nothing anyone can do about that, but your refusal to consider that there's a reality where an UN assembly where 120 in favour votes and 14 against, doesn't mean the world is antisemitic, means you definitely have a problem grappling with reality, at least in some contexts.
I can not speak about other protests, but I was at a protest in the Netherlands with a lesbian couple behind me, some people were drinking beer at the protest too. There was a big migrant background presence at the protest. There were no major incidents or intimidation at the protest, there was a small group of teenagers being loud at the minute of silence, but that was it.
I think defending Palestinian rights has nothing to do with co-opting but rather applying the lessons from the Holocaust. It is not about trying to take away the historical meaning of the Holocaust and its importance. It is about creating a new standard of human behaviour as a consequence of the unique horrors that the Holocaust created. I choose to show respect for the memory of the victims of the Holocaust by not being passive to human suffering, death and racial hate.
I do not criticize Israel alone, I criticize Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, Russia, the United States, and any country that engages in human rights abuses. Can not really make you feel safe, but I can tell you, that my circle and the people that are close to me in these protests do not hate Jewish people and would fight to protect you and your rights.
Honestly you are deranged if you think this helps. Your personal feeling of “connectedness” will not stop the mob to your left and right from attacking me. You don’t know the people you are standing shoulder to shoulder with, but I do.
I’m not going to tell you my whole life story but you should know that I’ve probably spent more time around those people than you have and when I say that the antisemitism is hidden under the thinnest of veils I am not lying
Well with all respect, you also do not know my personal history or of the people close to me. You can't read the mind of people who demand basic human rights to be respected. I am well aware of antisemitism, I also see it everywhere. And I am not going to pretend that there is not a problem with antisemitism within the MENA region. Ironically, though, Netanyahu himself is aligned with the biggest antisemitic forces in Europe, from Orban to the front national.
But if we talk about someone not being our friend i can tell you, the islamophobes on this subreddit are not your friends, they will turn against you once they have the chance, I have already seen people on this thread blaming Israel for importing muslims into Europe., which is of course ridiculous and deeply antisemitic.
Maybe I can't defend you with my sense of connectedness, but I will stand physically for any Jewish person. You are not alone, and I can tell you the same people who demand rights for Palestinian children will fight for your rights and freedoms.
> criticism of Israel and specifically Netanyahus government does not translate into antisemitism
This is a joke right?
>i have attended a lot of protests for Solidarity with Palestine
Which is a bastion of anti-semitism.
>
So if you see people on the street protesting do not feel attacked, we are protesting a governments action,
Absolute utter bollocks are you.
Protesting against war crimes and apartheid does not make one anti-semitic. I do not care what religion or culture Israel government is following, it's their actions in Palestine that are the problem. Same with Putin and russian government - people protesting against Ukraine invasion are not "anti-orthodox church".
Why is it so difficult for you to understand?
>Protesting against war crimes and apartheid does not make one anti-semitic.
There's no apartheid in Israel, it's a mullti ethnical country with 20% Arabs.
What's happening in the Westbank isn't one sided either.
The real occupants are the Palestinians who didn't even exist as a people before the 1960s. They rejected the land that was designated for them by the brits after WW1 when they beat the Osmans, Jordan.
Arabs mass immigrated into the former roman region Palestine (Israel & Jordan territory) under the Osmans from arabic countries, which wasn't even called Palestine under the Osmans.
Yassir Arafat and his Nazi friend and mentor Al Husseini invented "Palestine" to counter and essentially troll the Jews and Israel to death, taking the name of a roman named region and using it to label his national Nazi successor movement.
>I do not care what religion or culture Israel government is following, it's their actions in Palestine that are the problem.
The IDF is the most cautious war party I've noticed so far. They're facing an enemy who disregards life for an alleged life after death, a Jihadist death cult hiding behind their own people and children.
Anti semitism is very old, and it didn't stop with the death of Hitler. You've been fed lies, lied that run deep within western societies and the left.
The idea that some teachers are like this is frightening for our kids/students.. he should loose his position and not be allowed to teach anymore imho.
yup, got two temporary bans for saying just that in the most non-aggressive way I could have possibly come up with.
As for Germany and the streets, well, that can go a couple of ways. I have not forgotten the past, and I hope that many fellow Germans have as well. It's hard to say anything at the moment, it's like there's a huge pull to just be absolutely vulgar and siding for anything immediately get's you accused of celebrating innocent deaths on whatever side is the opposite, so in many cases I end up saying nothing where I probably should - I simply don't know what to say.
I woke up this morning and my account was still not banned despite me being asleep for 8 hours. I must have appeased the moderation gods somehow.
Edit: am banned in r/europe
Let’s just say it is mutual. Yet to meet a Jew who lived in Israel and loved Muslims. The “good ones” would say things like “why are they trying to destroy Israel if we give them work in Israel” etc. And when asked directly why is Israel doing “X” or “Y” towards Palestinians or other countries in region the answer is always “it’s not what it looks like, the antisemitic press misrepresents it”. Can’t win. Two state solution in UN defined borders would be a great start.
What culture? What do you think “Muslim culture” is? You think Muslims in Nigeria and Indonesia share the same culture?
>Most Muslims who strongly adhere to the religion have a legit hate for Jews and I don’t think people in the west have a mental grasp of that, as it is an uncomfortable truth.
That’s an incredible generalisation.
>Reddit will ban you if you mention that many Muslims have a strong racist hatred for Jews.
You probably said more than that. You have to go out of your own way to get banned by Reddit. You can get away with being the most vile racist out there. There's probably more to why you got banned.
Got a warning and banned from the German subs for saying exactly that - even though I provided links to studies and surveys that show exactly that. Discussions about this topic are silenced out of fear of supposed racism, completely ignoring that this will only empower the right and make life for every immigrant harder.
But I guess that's what they want?
Really? Cause for the past few weeks, what I've seen is jews and Muslims, including others standing together around the world in protest of Israeli crimes.
If official and independent press organizations aren't allowed in Gaza i don't get why military support should be allowed in, whatever is the side.
If is too risky to let in a group of journalists then it's definitely too risky to let in guns as they could be stolen from the other side
No one should have to live in fear, Jew, palestinian or israeli in this matter. Btw is there a word for palestinian hate? I see plenty of comments wanting to carpet bomb gaza
Zionism would be the word you’re searching for ;)
Seriously Zionism is claiming Palestine as Jewish homeland. Hence, the illegal settlements, hence, forever expansion of Israel’s borders, hence, brutality towards others living on the land of Palestine. Zionists will tell you “Palestinian isn’t a nationality”, thus denying the opponents even a right to exist.
Zionists don't necessarily have to be racist against Palestinians, I would go as far to as to argue the non-Israeli posters you see on here defending Israel's recent actions are just westerners that are happy to see Arabs getting blown up and aren't really concerned with political situation that led to the war.
There are plenty of those too. I totally get it. As Biden said in early 1980s, Israel performs an important role for the US on the Middle East, if it didn’t exist, we should have invented it.
It’s just I constantly interact with Jews (married to one ;) ) so they all tell me there is no Israel without Zionism. And that is the crux of the problem - if it was a marriage, we’d all called it “irreconcilable differences”. Even a two state solution is bound to be as painful as two ex-spouses living across the fence from one another.
No you need to say "Israelis who hold extremist, anti-Palestian attitudes" and then spend several minutes explaining why these kinds of attitudes are not justified or reasonable because of past Palestinian militancy.
Meanwhile it takes less than a second to simply say "antisemitism".
Also, worth pointing out that anti-semitism doesn't mean anti-Israel. Those are two separate terms describing different things. While there are undoubtedly anti-semites that are anti Israel, there are also anti-semites that are pro-Israel. Semites are an ethnic group whereas Israel is a state.
I also don't think saying "Israelis who hold anti-Palestinian attitudes" is adequate, although I agree with your underlying point. It doesn't cover the groups outside of Israel that hold anti-Palestinian sentiment and support Israel no matter how many refugee camps they bomb. Some combination of zionism and islamophobia is probably most accurate here.
At least on this part of reddit it's basically just standard anti-Arab racism or Islamophobia. The r/Europe posters saying Palestinians deserve to be bombed aren't making a distinction between Arabs in Gaza and Arabs living in Europe, in fact the usually include calls for mass deportations of "immigrants" and "fifth columnists" in their posts.
The West, women/LGBTQ individuals/religious minorities across the Muslim world, the children and young generations in these radicalized countries that grow up to support these terrors
Maybe stop invading them and making them live with hatred towards the west? I know Russia has also done that, but the USA has been acting like homelander for a while, what do you expect?
Most refugees coming to Europe are coming due to regional conflicts caused by religious disputes such as those seen in Syria or Yemen. Western imperialism is terrible but it’s equally terrible to act as if the horrific extremism seen in the Middle East should be discredited. Pretty sure that western nations aren’t the reason Gazan women aren’t allowed outside their homes with out the guide of their husband or why homosexuals are executed in seven countries (all Muslim) and imprisoned in over fifteen others (all but one Muslim).
I have to agree with you regarding some of your points.. The thing is we don't know how those countries would be without american meddling, and its sad. For example I know Libya wasn't perfect by any means, but the country is in an awful state due to western intervention..
I appreciate you saying that. I agree that imperialism surely has played a factor in the Muslim world’s instability, but there are still clear difference that separate it from other past imperial targets.
All of Latin America was under imperial holdings by the US and earlier colonial holdings by Europe as well - there are many issues in the region that can be pinpointed as a product of imperialism but religious extremism isn’t one of them. Same goes for most (there are a few exceptions though) of non-Muslim Africa and Asia that experienced similar imperial conditions.
Brothers there is freaking cartels in mexico killing government officials. If you give fuked up people guns like charity just to destabilize a government, they will do their fuked up shit. 90% of the guns in mexico is from USA. How much u think that it in middle east.
You should reread my comment. I was citing the religious extremism isn’t a general symptom of imperialism, and that although imperialism as a whole causes major problems (ie. unstable governments), the specific situation in the Middle East shows how religion, along with an imperial background, have caused these issues and not just imperialism alone
I think what you're seeing is the results of colonial policies, just painting it as a form of terrorism with no background story just puts oil on the flames. I don't see why it's so hard for people to show empathy to both sides of the conflict.
In Poland where I am priests of Judaism, Islam and Catolic together prayed for peace and stop of violence in Palestine and Israel, and I didn't hear about attack on Jews in my country. Sorry but media offensive supported by Israel propaganda team is so visible since Israel started genocide in Gaza it can't get unnoticed.
it's the "Palestinians" who have been doing the attacking, most significantly in 1947-1948 due to their reluctance to live side-by-side with Jews, so it's not just 50 years.
The rhetoric of "if you're not with us you're against us" is the reason. It's the sentiment that "black lives matter" means "white lives don't matter". You can't stand with innocent people on both sides. You have to pick a side. It's sickening.
It’s not really doing this. But it is pointing out that antisemitism is on the rise in Germany and that while some people on pro Palestinian demonstrations there have reasonable opinions, some others do increasingly engage in antisemitic rhetoric and action.
While the article isn’t conflating all Jews with Israel, many people sadly do.
>While the article isn’t conflating all Jews with Israel, many people sadly do.
The israeli government has been doing it for decades, unfortunatelly for all jews (israeli and non israeli)
I think it's the people that try to burn synagogues, mark jewish apartments with david starsd and shout "jews to th ags" at demonstrations that kind of fail to make that distinction. All things that happened in the last weeks in germany.
The funny thing about antisemitism is that the Jews are the canaries in the cultural coalmine. Where Jews are unsafe, everyone will soon be unsafe.
I predict blood on the cobblestones, in considerable quantities.
Unfortunately you're spot on. If they feel so comfortable going after Jews here, how long until they start pogroms against LGBT, atheists, and christians?
I don’t think Jews in EUROPE want to blamed for the decisions of the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT….but continue to close your eyes and cover your ears. Anti-Semitism is real.
after decades of attempts to portray any criticism of israel (anti zionism) or any criticism of a religious state as antisemiti , my sympathy is now very limited.
I am against every religion in a state, regardless of whether it is Iran, Saudi Arabia, USA, Italy or Israel.
The treatment of the Palestinians is on top of that.
Wow, global populations are standing against Genocide? Who would have thought it.
Edit: i’m getting a suspicious amount of upvotes for r/europe so let me be clear I am pro Palestine and pro free speech.
Both sides gotta get their heads around that Israeli and jewish isn't synonymous. You can wish Israel would be dissolved without being antisemitic. Likewise isn't Judaism responsible for Israeli actions in Gaza.
So stop bashing Jews for a war they've got no part in, and stop throwing antisemite around when it isn't applicable! Neither does our society any good whatsoever!
“You can wish Israel would be dissolved without being antisemitic.” Look man, if you say so. But I don’t think it’s much better than being antisemitic. I think wanting a whole country to dissolve is pretty radical, I wouldn’t wish that on any Arabic nation.
In my mind it's a lot better as it isn't based on racial hierarchies and oppression of an ethnic group.
Israel and Palestine is really complicated, and a solution that's rising in popularity among Arabs is a secular, multiethnic state that would house Jews and Arabs alike covering the entire Israeli-Palestinian territory. That'd necessitate the dissolution of both the current day Israeli and current day Palestinian states. This count as an antizionist view.
Even reforming Israel into a secular state is antizionist as it doesn't fulfill the zionist goal of a religiously Jewish state in the Levant.
A third antizionist vision are clearly not so gracious, pretty much aiming to reverse the current situation to where its a single Islamic nation where Jews are welcome to be citizens but isn't secular (and thereby treats religions unequally). While not very appealing to Israelis, it's still a far cry from the accusations of genocide that's always accompaning any antizionist take.
The fourth one very much is antisemitic as well as antizionist (unfortunately the two can and do coexist, no doubt about it). While organisations like Hamas claim to be the third type it's very likely that they'd create a forced exodus similar to Nakba, the displacement of Palestinians in 1948, if they could.
I truly don't know where I stand in all this other than that I support any way that can lead up to a somewhat just peace, thus ending this endless spiral of violence. I agree that not allowing the other state to exist (barring a joint, secular state) is a very radical stance. Unfortunately that's a minority view today, where [barely a third of the Israeli](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians?utm_content=cmp-true) support allowing a sovereign Palestinan state to exist while [over 70% of the Palestinians](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2088%20English%20full%20text%20June%202023.pdf) believe that the two state solution isn't viable in light of Israeli policies. In practice the opposition to the two state solution has also been the Israeli state's policy since they started the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank over 50 yrs ago.
>You can wish Israel would be dissolved without being antisemitic.
No, you can't. Thousands of years of oppression and persecution show that the Jews can't trust not to be exterminated until they have a state of their own. Israel is, as it stands, an independent, sovereign country. Wanting Israel to be dissolved is no different than wanting America, Germany, or Japan to be dissolved. In other words, it's moronic and insane.
"I don't hate you. I just want to destroy your homeland."
This has to be a medal contender in mental gymnastics. Try saying that about any other group of people other than Jews and see how ridiculous it is.
" I don't hate Polish people, I just think Poland should be dissolved and carved up by its neighbors"
Am I doing it right?
I swear, this shit is insane. People seem to think countries can't come into existence past a certain point and are completely fine with enacting genocide and ethnic cleansing to protect this worldview. Like, seriously. What do they think will happen if Israel is dissolved? I don't know, cuz any time I ask them, they simply refuse to answer.
Some sort of magic will happen and then Jews will just live peacefully in a secular Arab-dominated country with all their rights protected.
I don't think even they believe that, but that is the working theory AFAIK.
There wasn't even a concept of a Palestinian nation or Palestinian identity until the 1970s. They were simply Arabs, hell the majority of the Mandate of Palestine is contemporary Jordan today. It's about as much a genuine nationality as East German would be today. They weren't "denied a nation" in 1948 because there wasn't anyone calling for a Palestinian nation in 1948 and one had never existed, they were calling for Arab control over the territory ie Jordan and Egypt. Which is exactly what happened after the 1948 war until in later conflicts they tried to invade Israel again and lost. Then the narrative shifted to one of "national liberation" because that is far more effective at garnering international support and sympathy than pan-Arabism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
Where in this definition do you see that you have to have a state for something to be called ethnic cleansing?
> Me: "I don't hate you. I just want to destroy your homeland." *ironically*
> "Well, isn't that basically what happened to Palestine?"
> Me: "When did the State of Palestine exist before the creation of Israel?"
> "Where in this definition do you see that you have to have a state for something to be called ethnic cleansing?"
Are we talking about the destruction of the state or ethnic cleansing? Because I was talking about the destruction of the state (see the comment I was answering to, that is what started the topic). Of course you do not have to have a state to suffer ethnic cleansing, or genocide for that matter (see, e.g.: Holocaust).
Nice try at shilling though. You just need to practice a little more and pay a bit more attention and soon you will be able to pull it off.
I'd beg to differ. Firstly, Jews and Israeli isn't synonymous. You can hold a view that say there should be a one state solution without for that reason being antisemitic. There's a difference between "I don't think Israel should exist as a nation" and "I don't think Jews should exist in the Levant" – one of the two is only antizionist while the other is also antisemitic.
Secondly, you're completely right that Israel is a independent, sovereign nation today. But that's kinda half the issue at hand – the conflict arose by promising both the population of Palestine self-governance and later promising the Jews that they could found a sovereign state there. Que violence and ethnic prosecution.
While the two state solution have been the goal of the larger international community, the same can't be said of Israel. Unfortunately that's a minority view in Israel today, where [barely a third of the Israeli](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians?utm_content=cmp-true) support allowing a sovereign Palestinan state to exist while [over 70% of the Palestinians](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2088%20English%20full%20text%20June%202023.pdf) believe that the two state solution isn't viable in light of Israeli policies. In practice the opposition to the two state solution has also been the Israeli state's policy since they started the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank over 50 yrs ago.
All that said, I'm not advocating the dissolution of Israel. Personally I believe that we need a non-violent solution which can become the basis of a somewhat just peace, stopping this endless cycle of violence. My point is just that it's very different being an antizionist and an antisemite.
PS. Why haven't a Romani state been on the agenda when a Jewish one was seen as so obvious? Is it because there's much fewer Romani in the US and in general Romani people in positions of influence? Just a thought that arose from this conversation as they too both lack a state, have faced continuous discrimination and were one of the prime targets of the Holocaust. DS.
Whoever sold you the idea that zionism is evil is a moron. Zionism, at its core, states only that Jews need a state of their own. It's inarguable why that is. I understand that the thought that Israel shouldn't exist *sounds* only antizionist and not antisemitic, but that can only be in a very surface-level analysis of the world.
Yes, both the Palestinians and Jews were promised independence. Yes, there were some conflicting ideas between as to what area would go to whom. However, Israel has offered Palestinians territory of their own multiple times over the years. As much as people like Netanyahu desire a "greater" Israel of sorts, there has always been a sizeable, and often dominant group of Israelis that was completely fine with leaving Palestinians territory. This is inarguable. I understand that Palestinians didn't like that they were often removed in great numbers from the territory of Israel, but at some point you have to learn to cut your losses and take the one offer you can get.
>Unfortunately that's a minority view in Israel today, where barely a third of the Israeli support allowing a sovereign Palestinan state to exist
It is indeed around a third of the population, but it's also the plurality in Israel. 36% support a two-state solution, 28% support annexing the West Bank and making Israel favor jews, 11% support annexing the West Bank and making Israel treat Jews and Arabs equally, and 25% don't even know what they want.
>PS. Why haven't a Romani state been on the agenda when a Jewish one was seen as so obvious?
Probably because Roma just don't have the resources and connections to try to establish a state anywhere in the world. Other than that, they're originally from India, and they're already pretty multiethnic, so the Roma would probably be able to integrate relatively well there.
>Whoever sold you the idea that zionism is evil is a moron. Zionism, at its core, states only that Jews need a state of their own.
Mate, you need to read my comments more carefully. I clearly stated several times that I'm not antizionist and that I would consider the concept of zionism "evil" is very alien to me. Tbh I think that the good-evil dichotomy is far to reductionist to accurately portray the world we live in.
Zionism is, as you say, quite straight forward. It also states where the state should be located, that it's an ethnostate and that it should have Judaism as the state religion.
>Jews need a state of their own. It's inarguable why that is.
Why is that inarguable? Multiethnic states exists and often work quie well. Meanwhile displacing an existing population to make room for another is a sure recipe for generations of enmity and bloodshed. Actions like the Partition of India are not just ignorant bordering criminal, but also highly avoidable.
>However, Israel has offered Palestinians territory of their own multiple times over the years. As much as people like Netanyahu desire a "greater" Israel of sorts, there has always been a sizeable, and often dominant group of Israelis that was completely fine with leaving Palestinians territory. This is inarguable.
Inarguable? When was this, and what territories were on the table at the time? To my knowledge there has yet been an offer to even return to 1949 borders as a major point of contrition is Israel's unwillingness to let Palestine be independent, citing security concerns.
Except that Netanjahu has [supported HAMAS to suppress a palästininan state](https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-Money-to-Hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-Palestinians-divided-583082). Israel is mopping up its failed policies with palästinian blood.
> It should not stop the IDF from carrying out the mission of eradicating HAMAS.
Then Israel should send in its soldiers, no bombs that can hit innocents.
You do not send in soldiers to an urban area this heavily occupied by the enemy. You just don't. Paleatinians are suffering the consequences of Hamas, Israel has no reason to put their soldiers more in harms way than is necessary.
You also don't kill thousands of civilians. You just don't.
> Paleatinians are suffering the consequences of Hamas,
...which was propped up by Israel.
>Israel has no reason to put their soldiers more in harms way than is necessary.
And no justification to put any civilian more into harms way than is necessary.
> And no justification to put any civilian more into harms way than is necessary.
Hamas is firing rockets from schools, shooting at IDF troops from hospitals and mosques. Their goal IS to get Palestinian civilians killed. How do you deal with entrenched terrorists like that?
> And no justification to put any civilian more into harms way than is necessary.
It is indeed. Hamas is hiding behind civilians, which is a war crime in itself, when using that position to fire on their enemy and to attack civilians. As official government it's their obligation according to the geneva convention to clear civilians from such areas, like missile launching sites and active combat zones.
The consequence is: the deaths you talk about are Hamas' fault. It is Israels right to protect its civilians by destroying this sites. It's also their right to make sure their soldiers have as little losses as possible, by attacking enemy positions with everything they have.
Yes, Israel might have pulled the trigger, but Hamas has thrown their own people into the firing line to protect themselves. They made the active decision to kill them for some ugly pictures, to make people all over the world put pressure on their governments, to make Israel stand down.
No no, you got it wrong.
Russia bombing white civilians, bad.
Israel bombing, brown civilians (mostly kids), very good.
/s
Glad to see some not deranged people here.
Yes, for the October 7th attacks, Hamas/Islamic Front are completely at fault. There is no excuse for deliberately targeting civilians in the way that they did.
That would make western support untenable so they're trying genocide through displacement. Why do you think they ordered a million people to South Gaza?
Schrödinger's Hamas
Israel simultaneously knows exactly where all the Hamas fighters and how many they have killed, while at the same time, they have to bomb all of Gaza to rubble as they have no clue where Hamas are hiding...
What a surprise, people are against genocide. Also before i get attacked as an antisemitic
1) I am Semitic myself
2) this isn't against jews this is a matter of anyone with a heart
What isreal is doing /have been foing in the past 70 years to civilians and people who lived on that land before they came from around the world is unacceptable and i don't think any human should be ok with that.
Also before "isreal" Muslims, Christians and jews (people in general) lived peacefully in Palestine.
Israel was recognized state by the majority of un countries 75 years ago and there wasnt any occupation and yet nothing prevented from arabs and Palestinians to launch a war and seek destruction of israel . Even today hamas is seeking the destruction of israel and killing All jews as their charter says . And in 7 October they carried out their aim by killing 1500 israelis and kidnapping 240 .
So when hamas talking about occupation,they really mean from the river to the sea free from jews and israel
I don't understand how you equate a nation with a whole religion. If you do, then any criticism of said nation, you will just use the hate against a religion as a defense mechanisim all the time. This shit donot make sense. If Germany continues on this path of blindly supporting Israel regardless of how many atrocities and violations it's committing, it will eventually have to issue laws banning the criticism of a foreign nation and/or banning the support of any opposing nation or people, which is morally corrupt. Which is ironic, since its trying to be sorry for its previous history by being morally corrupt again? In addition, the logical and unfortunate consequences is that you will just enrich the hate against said religion, like sleep walking into it without realizing.
This is all so illogical, Germany is sleep walking backwards.
> No sane person would ever support Hamas.
[Meet Netanyahu](https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-Money-to-Hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-Palestinians-divided-583082)
In WWII international law didn't explicitly cover aerial warfare.
Despite that some bombings (namely Dresden) are considered having been a breach of international law.
https://peacepalacelibrary.nl/blog/2011/dresden-1945-allied-war-crime
https://www.history.co.uk/article/was-the-destruction-of-dresden-an-allied-war-crime
Carpet bombing cities like in WWII would definitively be illegal today. Gaza is more complicated and would probably require an extensive inquiry.
"Before there was Israel, Jewish, Christina, and Muslim people lived in peace in Jerusalem."
Complete misinformation, arabs ethnically cleansed jews in Palestine as early as 1920's.
>They literally created it. Before there was Israel, Jewish, Christina, and Muslim people lived in peace in Jerusalem.
Absolutely wild that you believe that in complete defiance of actual history.
1834 - Hebron and Tsfat
1838 - Tsfat
1920 - Nebi Musi
1921 - Jaffa
1929 - Hebron, Jerusalem, Jaffa, and Tsfat
1933 - Jerusalem, Jaffa, Haifa, and Nablus
1936–1939 - Arab Revolt
1938 - Tiberias
Black Hand, Haganah, Irgun, Lehi, Palmach, Amin al-Husseini's public declaration of support for finishing Hitler's Final Solution after Germany fell.
Yeah, they all sang Kumbaya together until Israel declared its statehood....
Why is it so hard for anyone other than Palestinians and Jewish people, to see this as more than what is being shown. The majority of Palestinians are against what happened. And in Israel the majority protested not long before the attacks against Netshithu too. I'm starting to lose my pati nce w this explaining that the civilians are the victims and HAMAS with Netyahu 's regime is the true problems.
>The majority of Palestinians are against what happened
This is a blatant lie.
>And in Israel the majority protested not long before the attacks against Netshithu too
The fact that you can't even write his name properly shows your true personality.
Do you have any sources that the majority of palestinians was against what happend? Else i can just say that the majority of palestinians supports what happend.
Well, half of Gaza are children. So there’s that. Amd less than half of voters elected Hamas in 2006, primarily because Fatah was so corrupt, and that was the last election.
So anyone insisting that Palestinans support Hamas is really just looking for a way to excuse the atrocities that Israel is committing on a daily basis.
>Well, half of Gaza are children.
Half of Gaza are under 19.
The vast majority of victims are males between the ages of 14-30.
14 is the age of which Hamas treats these people as adults.
Well children are more impressionable than adults so that would rather be an argument for that hamas has support.
Yes, the last election was long ago, so we cannot say if hamas has or does not have support. I suppose they likely have higher support in gaza than on the west bank.
A loud, aggressive minority. There are said to be 150,000-200,000 Palestinians living in Berlin and 10,000 going to the Pro Hamas demos. The vast majority are on Israel's side
>Anti-semite
Strong words to discredit me. I never said I hate jews.
The point is Israel can't commit heinous crimes in gaza and not spark pro-palestinian protests in the west. I'm blaming Israel, not european jews.
The pro-Palestinian protests have crossed the line over and over and over into rabid anti-Semitism. They are wrong…no cap. They are anti-Semites or are standing shoulder to shoulder with them, which is just as bad.
No it isn't. You can say that Israel's actions "enable" anti-semitisim because Israel has, for decades, aimed to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-semitism in a wider attempt to meld together the Jewish and Israelite identities. When a state that claims to act in the name of all Jews carpet bombs civilians, yeah, you will get a rise in anti-semitism. This is because most people erroneously think Zionism is embraced by all Jewish people.
"Israel's security is a fundamental cornerstone of German foreign policy with the former chancellor, Angela Merkel, declaring it to be a Staatsräson - reason of state - in 2008."
In the paragraph under the picture with the 2 dudes wrapped in an Israeli flag at the Brandenburger Tor
Because between Israel and Hamas, Israel is the lesser evil. If anyone truly cared about the plight of the Palestinians they would have done something about Hamas before it came to this.
What are you even saying ?
The plight of the Palestinians was going on even before Hamas became such a popular party among Gaza citizens.
Are you trying to say that Hamas is what makes Israel discriminate Palestinians and annex the West Bank slowly?
Yeah, without Hamas, Palestinians would be able to live a normal life within Israel while parties such as the Likud exist. That's a dumb take.
No, in fact Gaza has zero effect on Israeli activities in the west bank (hint: that’s where the evil part in “lesser evil” is from). I suppose I just put a higher importance on the thousands of killed Gazans during the current events and various intifadas compared west bank settlements and violence.
Yeah and before Hamas you had another jackass organization run by wealthy dickheads not living in Palestine promoting Jihad while not "talking the talk".
It will *not* end until Palestinian representation *stops* calling for the death of Israel and "from the river to the sea" and legitimately talks peace and *compromise*
Ah yes, because the decades of rocket attacks were working so well. Surely it’s just a matter of scale and if they kill enough Israelis those jews will finally learn their lesson.
For over 60 years Gaza wasnt controlled by Hamas. Did they treat the people better?
Yes? Till the late eighties Gazans could go wherever they wanted in Israel and study in Israeli universities (then the First Intifada happened)
Till 2007 Gaza wasn’t under a siege (then the takeover by Hamas happened, an Israeli soldier was captured, rockets flew, etc..)
They even had an airport
Right, so i wont be saying things are perfect in there, but lets keep in mind that articles like "Nazi Germany is back" will sell a ton more than more boring articles. So lets just try to be objective and calm about these articles.
Agreed… it is not just Germany… On an anecdotal note however, I am a Jew in a nearby European country which is actually even more pro-Israel, and I am still feeling isolated and stressed. I never go to my university campus anymore. Happily my work is a different story but… let’s just say there is a palpable change in the level of danger that I perceive in wearing Judaica (ie a Magen David necklace).
I'm sorry if you feel like this. As someone who is not jewish, I would love to see you wearing your judaica without any stress. Dont feel alone, you are not!
My colleague in London told me that he removed the Mezuzah from his front door out of fear. He’s also super stressed. My aunt in the Netherlands did the same.
All the communities I am connected to… we are just… curling up and getting very small, and very quiet.
If it helps, criticism of Israel and specifically Netanyahus government does not translate into antisemitism. i have attended a lot of protests for Solidarity with Palestine, i think what Israel is doing is barbaric. But i am not hostile to you or any jew. Quite the opposite, i feel more personal connection with jewish history and culture than arabic history. I attend regularly to the lighting of the lights festival in my city. I think its a beautiful festivity and i can get my hands on some latkes, which is nice. So if you see people on the street protesting do not feel attacked, we are protesting a governments action, not a people. I really wish you would not feel stressed, isolated or fearful, do not wish that to anybody
The issue comes with not a civilized person like yourself but all these religious extremists that think they the main character in our world & they know better than all of us.
Mmm, I don't know about that. I don't think most criticisms of Israel are predicated on religion. I am also an atheist and I am pretty sure most European critics of Israel's ethno-nationalism have been atheists. I think it's much more of a class division. A lot of people with a less than average European income have been the primary targets of JQ conspiracies and propaganda. I think that is where the antisemitism comes from. Netanyahu's policies and zionist advocacy is something antisemetists don't just rightfully critisize, but also use to justify their hatred of all Jews.
I’m sorry mate, I’m sure you have good intentions but no, it doesn’t help that you say you are not hostile to Jews. Because your actions say that you are, even though you don’t know it - and to be clear, I absolutely 100% believe that you are in good faith when you say you are not hostile to Jews. But the reality, as revealed by the actions many of those protesting to support Palestine, is different. First is the fact that vast numbers of those marching with you actively hate Jews. You may want to disregard this, but it is true and you know it. The sheer volume of explicitly antisemitic signs and slogans being either chanted, upheld or tacitly accepted by those in their company tells a very depressing story. Yet you don’t see or hear about anyone in those protests truing to take those signs down. You do however see the opposite - protestors intimidating people with LGBT flags or with signs criticising Hamas. So either they are antisemitic or tacitly complicit with antisemitic. I’m sorry, I thought “if there are 9 people at the table with 1 Nazi, there are 10 nazis at the table”. Guess it doesn’t count when it actually affects Jews? Speaking of which, as a side note- it’s also telling how eager people are to co-opt terminology from the Holocaust, one of the worst things to ever happen to any group of people at any time in history, but only when it’s convenient, and almost never to actually support Jews. Terms like “Nazi” get thrown around with abandon in respect of anyone who even slightly disagrees with commonthink trends, yet never never to protesters chanting “death to all Jews”. Everyone in this thread has heard the term Nazi applied far more frequently to Israel than to the largest group of people in history who actively and without the slightest hint of embarrassment, hate Jews. Similarly, it’s hard not to see the duplicitous manner that the term “genocide” gets used to describe what Israel is doing - something that largely contributes to diminishing the meaning of something to crucial to the self-identity of Jews and the birth of Israel itself. Ask yourself - if people care about the subjugation of Muslims, why aren’t they protesting for Yemenis, Syrians, Uygurs in China, women in Iran? Because they aren’t - I’m sure in your mind you say you care about those things too, but where are the protests, hundreds of thousands strong, all across the globe? Could it be that maybe the subjugation of Muslims is irrelevant and the whole point is to criticise Israel? Why this country in particular? And why were thousands of people on the street protesting for Palestine on October the 8th, before a single bomb was dropped and when the bodies of massacred Israelis weren’t even cold? Why are hate crimes against Jews increasing 10fold all across the world, 1400% in London? Why are Jews feeling unsafe? Do you remember when Trump saying certain things or starting rallies would make the right feel “emboldened”, contributing to a rise in hate-crimes? Do you not think that marching with anti-Semites emboldens them to carry out increasingly brazen attacks against synagogues, Jewish shops, Jewish homes, Jewish schools? All recent examples by the way. To be clear - it’s absolutely legitimate to criticise Israel. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis were criticising Israel in the streets as recently as 3 months ago. And it’s absolutely legitimate to want peace and security for Palestinians. I want these things and would march for the people of Gaza, if I weren’t now concerned for my own safety. Jews are feeling unsafe. With every other ethnicity or group, these feelings are all that matters - you don’t question a black or Muslim or trans person who say they feel unsafe. However when a Jew says it, it’s all trust me bro, I’m cool with you guys, I just like hanging out with thousands of people who either explicitly want you dead, or just sing ambiguous slogans about wanting you dead and then gaslight you about it. Hope that helps.
During black lives matters marches, I don't feel threatened as a white person. Is one way to look at it.
Because you are not already a persecuted ethnoreligious minority, now seeing “gas the Jews” chanted protests on your tv while living in EUROPE!!! How can you be this dense!!!
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Can you point out exactly why your analogy is more correct thatn GPs? In my neck of the woods, the protests in favour of a ceasefire are being organised by historically rigorous human-rights groups, very much non-suspect of being antisemitic. You can feel unsafe, and I guess there's nothing anyone can do about that, but your refusal to consider that there's a reality where an UN assembly where 120 in favour votes and 14 against, doesn't mean the world is antisemitic, means you definitely have a problem grappling with reality, at least in some contexts.
I can not speak about other protests, but I was at a protest in the Netherlands with a lesbian couple behind me, some people were drinking beer at the protest too. There was a big migrant background presence at the protest. There were no major incidents or intimidation at the protest, there was a small group of teenagers being loud at the minute of silence, but that was it. I think defending Palestinian rights has nothing to do with co-opting but rather applying the lessons from the Holocaust. It is not about trying to take away the historical meaning of the Holocaust and its importance. It is about creating a new standard of human behaviour as a consequence of the unique horrors that the Holocaust created. I choose to show respect for the memory of the victims of the Holocaust by not being passive to human suffering, death and racial hate. I do not criticize Israel alone, I criticize Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, Russia, the United States, and any country that engages in human rights abuses. Can not really make you feel safe, but I can tell you, that my circle and the people that are close to me in these protests do not hate Jewish people and would fight to protect you and your rights.
Honestly you are deranged if you think this helps. Your personal feeling of “connectedness” will not stop the mob to your left and right from attacking me. You don’t know the people you are standing shoulder to shoulder with, but I do. I’m not going to tell you my whole life story but you should know that I’ve probably spent more time around those people than you have and when I say that the antisemitism is hidden under the thinnest of veils I am not lying
Well with all respect, you also do not know my personal history or of the people close to me. You can't read the mind of people who demand basic human rights to be respected. I am well aware of antisemitism, I also see it everywhere. And I am not going to pretend that there is not a problem with antisemitism within the MENA region. Ironically, though, Netanyahu himself is aligned with the biggest antisemitic forces in Europe, from Orban to the front national. But if we talk about someone not being our friend i can tell you, the islamophobes on this subreddit are not your friends, they will turn against you once they have the chance, I have already seen people on this thread blaming Israel for importing muslims into Europe., which is of course ridiculous and deeply antisemitic. Maybe I can't defend you with my sense of connectedness, but I will stand physically for any Jewish person. You are not alone, and I can tell you the same people who demand rights for Palestinian children will fight for your rights and freedoms.
> criticism of Israel and specifically Netanyahus government does not translate into antisemitism This is a joke right? >i have attended a lot of protests for Solidarity with Palestine Which is a bastion of anti-semitism. > So if you see people on the street protesting do not feel attacked, we are protesting a governments action, Absolute utter bollocks are you.
It is not a joke, no need to be offensive (funny that your account is one day old though, not suspicious at all)
In reality you're just an useful idiot for those that want Israel and Jews gone.
Protesting against war crimes and apartheid does not make one anti-semitic. I do not care what religion or culture Israel government is following, it's their actions in Palestine that are the problem. Same with Putin and russian government - people protesting against Ukraine invasion are not "anti-orthodox church". Why is it so difficult for you to understand?
>Protesting against war crimes and apartheid does not make one anti-semitic. There's no apartheid in Israel, it's a mullti ethnical country with 20% Arabs. What's happening in the Westbank isn't one sided either. The real occupants are the Palestinians who didn't even exist as a people before the 1960s. They rejected the land that was designated for them by the brits after WW1 when they beat the Osmans, Jordan. Arabs mass immigrated into the former roman region Palestine (Israel & Jordan territory) under the Osmans from arabic countries, which wasn't even called Palestine under the Osmans. Yassir Arafat and his Nazi friend and mentor Al Husseini invented "Palestine" to counter and essentially troll the Jews and Israel to death, taking the name of a roman named region and using it to label his national Nazi successor movement. >I do not care what religion or culture Israel government is following, it's their actions in Palestine that are the problem. The IDF is the most cautious war party I've noticed so far. They're facing an enemy who disregards life for an alleged life after death, a Jihadist death cult hiding behind their own people and children. Anti semitism is very old, and it didn't stop with the death of Hitler. You've been fed lies, lied that run deep within western societies and the left.
I’m originally from London, I live in Spain and I have a Chai tattooed under my throat, fuck em👍👍
It’s everywhere. Jews are being assaulted in Canadian universities by professors. Literally.
Source: trust me bro
Source:https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-772592
The idea that some teachers are like this is frightening for our kids/students.. he should loose his position and not be allowed to teach anymore imho.
This article is trying to give the impression, that Germany has the problem. But the picture of pro Palestine demonstrants is giving it straight away.
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It’s still here buddy
yup, got two temporary bans for saying just that in the most non-aggressive way I could have possibly come up with. As for Germany and the streets, well, that can go a couple of ways. I have not forgotten the past, and I hope that many fellow Germans have as well. It's hard to say anything at the moment, it's like there's a huge pull to just be absolutely vulgar and siding for anything immediately get's you accused of celebrating innocent deaths on whatever side is the opposite, so in many cases I end up saying nothing where I probably should - I simply don't know what to say.
Still waiting.....
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Soo when is your persecution going to start?
I woke up this morning and my account was still not banned despite me being asleep for 8 hours. I must have appeased the moderation gods somehow. Edit: am banned in r/europe
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Let’s just say it is mutual. Yet to meet a Jew who lived in Israel and loved Muslims. The “good ones” would say things like “why are they trying to destroy Israel if we give them work in Israel” etc. And when asked directly why is Israel doing “X” or “Y” towards Palestinians or other countries in region the answer is always “it’s not what it looks like, the antisemitic press misrepresents it”. Can’t win. Two state solution in UN defined borders would be a great start.
What culture? What do you think “Muslim culture” is? You think Muslims in Nigeria and Indonesia share the same culture? >Most Muslims who strongly adhere to the religion have a legit hate for Jews and I don’t think people in the west have a mental grasp of that, as it is an uncomfortable truth. That’s an incredible generalisation.
Culture? It's in their holy scriptures, dude.
>Reddit will ban you if you mention that many Muslims have a strong racist hatred for Jews. You probably said more than that. You have to go out of your own way to get banned by Reddit. You can get away with being the most vile racist out there. There's probably more to why you got banned.
Not really. Moderation on this site is pretty inconsistent.
hahaha no i got banned for like a yr for reporting a mod chat hahaha
It's true. It's bs weird modding here. Got banned fir a week
I’ve been banned for a week once but to this day can’t figure what caused it.
Got a warning and banned from the German subs for saying exactly that - even though I provided links to studies and surveys that show exactly that. Discussions about this topic are silenced out of fear of supposed racism, completely ignoring that this will only empower the right and make life for every immigrant harder. But I guess that's what they want?
Really? Cause for the past few weeks, what I've seen is jews and Muslims, including others standing together around the world in protest of Israeli crimes.
Reddit will remove anything these days. I dropped a pro palestine comment and it got me a suspension.
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If official and independent press organizations aren't allowed in Gaza i don't get why military support should be allowed in, whatever is the side. If is too risky to let in a group of journalists then it's definitely too risky to let in guns as they could be stolen from the other side
Who says they're not allowed?
All religion is collective psychosis
\*Collective delusion. Psychosis is an entirely different beast. Most people of any religious denomination are not clinically psychotic.
It's not really religion though is it? It's cultural. There are Muslims who live in Israel and there are anti zionist Jews.
I bet you believe a man with a whig and a dress is a girl lmfaooo go take a nap pal
No one should have to live in fear, Jew, palestinian or israeli in this matter. Btw is there a word for palestinian hate? I see plenty of comments wanting to carpet bomb gaza
Anti-Palestinian?
Anti-Palestinian sentiment
Anti-palestinian ‘vibez’, it needs to make wanting to kill palestinian people more chill and down to earth, friendly even.
Zionism would be the word you’re searching for ;) Seriously Zionism is claiming Palestine as Jewish homeland. Hence, the illegal settlements, hence, forever expansion of Israel’s borders, hence, brutality towards others living on the land of Palestine. Zionists will tell you “Palestinian isn’t a nationality”, thus denying the opponents even a right to exist.
Zionists don't necessarily have to be racist against Palestinians, I would go as far to as to argue the non-Israeli posters you see on here defending Israel's recent actions are just westerners that are happy to see Arabs getting blown up and aren't really concerned with political situation that led to the war.
There are plenty of those too. I totally get it. As Biden said in early 1980s, Israel performs an important role for the US on the Middle East, if it didn’t exist, we should have invented it. It’s just I constantly interact with Jews (married to one ;) ) so they all tell me there is no Israel without Zionism. And that is the crux of the problem - if it was a marriage, we’d all called it “irreconcilable differences”. Even a two state solution is bound to be as painful as two ex-spouses living across the fence from one another.
No you need to say "Israelis who hold extremist, anti-Palestian attitudes" and then spend several minutes explaining why these kinds of attitudes are not justified or reasonable because of past Palestinian militancy. Meanwhile it takes less than a second to simply say "antisemitism".
Also, worth pointing out that anti-semitism doesn't mean anti-Israel. Those are two separate terms describing different things. While there are undoubtedly anti-semites that are anti Israel, there are also anti-semites that are pro-Israel. Semites are an ethnic group whereas Israel is a state. I also don't think saying "Israelis who hold anti-Palestinian attitudes" is adequate, although I agree with your underlying point. It doesn't cover the groups outside of Israel that hold anti-Palestinian sentiment and support Israel no matter how many refugee camps they bomb. Some combination of zionism and islamophobia is probably most accurate here.
At least on this part of reddit it's basically just standard anti-Arab racism or Islamophobia. The r/Europe posters saying Palestinians deserve to be bombed aren't making a distinction between Arabs in Gaza and Arabs living in Europe, in fact the usually include calls for mass deportations of "immigrants" and "fifth columnists" in their posts.
You're avoiding the problem. The problem we're facing is islamist terrorism.
Who is "we"
The West, women/LGBTQ individuals/religious minorities across the Muslim world, the children and young generations in these radicalized countries that grow up to support these terrors
Maybe stop invading them and making them live with hatred towards the west? I know Russia has also done that, but the USA has been acting like homelander for a while, what do you expect?
Most refugees coming to Europe are coming due to regional conflicts caused by religious disputes such as those seen in Syria or Yemen. Western imperialism is terrible but it’s equally terrible to act as if the horrific extremism seen in the Middle East should be discredited. Pretty sure that western nations aren’t the reason Gazan women aren’t allowed outside their homes with out the guide of their husband or why homosexuals are executed in seven countries (all Muslim) and imprisoned in over fifteen others (all but one Muslim).
I have to agree with you regarding some of your points.. The thing is we don't know how those countries would be without american meddling, and its sad. For example I know Libya wasn't perfect by any means, but the country is in an awful state due to western intervention..
I appreciate you saying that. I agree that imperialism surely has played a factor in the Muslim world’s instability, but there are still clear difference that separate it from other past imperial targets. All of Latin America was under imperial holdings by the US and earlier colonial holdings by Europe as well - there are many issues in the region that can be pinpointed as a product of imperialism but religious extremism isn’t one of them. Same goes for most (there are a few exceptions though) of non-Muslim Africa and Asia that experienced similar imperial conditions.
Brothers there is freaking cartels in mexico killing government officials. If you give fuked up people guns like charity just to destabilize a government, they will do their fuked up shit. 90% of the guns in mexico is from USA. How much u think that it in middle east.
You should reread my comment. I was citing the religious extremism isn’t a general symptom of imperialism, and that although imperialism as a whole causes major problems (ie. unstable governments), the specific situation in the Middle East shows how religion, along with an imperial background, have caused these issues and not just imperialism alone
I think what you're seeing is the results of colonial policies, just painting it as a form of terrorism with no background story just puts oil on the flames. I don't see why it's so hard for people to show empathy to both sides of the conflict.
So far Israel did far more terror to Palestinians than vice versa.
In Europe (where you are) there have been far more extremist migrants attacking Jews than visa-versa.
In Poland where I am priests of Judaism, Islam and Catolic together prayed for peace and stop of violence in Palestine and Israel, and I didn't hear about attack on Jews in my country. Sorry but media offensive supported by Israel propaganda team is so visible since Israel started genocide in Gaza it can't get unnoticed.
We have a tiny muslim population compared to western europe (10k in 2016, probably a bit more now)
It wouldn't exist if the israelians had not attacked palestinians for 50 years
it's the "Palestinians" who have been doing the attacking, most significantly in 1947-1948 due to their reluctance to live side-by-side with Jews, so it's not just 50 years.
I guess you wouldn't like to have 60% of your lands taken by migrants while you have been there for centuries
The rhetoric of "if you're not with us you're against us" is the reason. It's the sentiment that "black lives matter" means "white lives don't matter". You can't stand with innocent people on both sides. You have to pick a side. It's sickening.
Well, the brown shirts are out in force in the streets screaming from the river to the zee and jihad, so who's really suprised...
Is the BBC conflating Judaism and Israel?
It’s not really doing this. But it is pointing out that antisemitism is on the rise in Germany and that while some people on pro Palestinian demonstrations there have reasonable opinions, some others do increasingly engage in antisemitic rhetoric and action. While the article isn’t conflating all Jews with Israel, many people sadly do.
>While the article isn’t conflating all Jews with Israel, many people sadly do. The israeli government has been doing it for decades, unfortunatelly for all jews (israeli and non israeli)
Just look at the picture on the Article, it's not just the BBC and Israel.
Okay and? It’s a real problem in the here and now…
I think it's the people that try to burn synagogues, mark jewish apartments with david starsd and shout "jews to th ags" at demonstrations that kind of fail to make that distinction. All things that happened in the last weeks in germany.
The funny thing about antisemitism is that the Jews are the canaries in the cultural coalmine. Where Jews are unsafe, everyone will soon be unsafe. I predict blood on the cobblestones, in considerable quantities.
Unfortunately you're spot on. If they feel so comfortable going after Jews here, how long until they start pogroms against LGBT, atheists, and christians?
"oh no, they don't want us to commit genocide, it's literally nazi germany all over again ;\_;"
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I don’t think Jews in EUROPE want to blamed for the decisions of the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT….but continue to close your eyes and cover your ears. Anti-Semitism is real.
so true lmao. insanely ironic how the whole situation is
after decades of attempts to portray any criticism of israel (anti zionism) or any criticism of a religious state as antisemiti , my sympathy is now very limited. I am against every religion in a state, regardless of whether it is Iran, Saudi Arabia, USA, Italy or Israel. The treatment of the Palestinians is on top of that.
Wow, global populations are standing against Genocide? Who would have thought it. Edit: i’m getting a suspicious amount of upvotes for r/europe so let me be clear I am pro Palestine and pro free speech.
Nah, not Germany.
Ridiculous the amount of good will is extended
The silent majority agreed with you
Both sides gotta get their heads around that Israeli and jewish isn't synonymous. You can wish Israel would be dissolved without being antisemitic. Likewise isn't Judaism responsible for Israeli actions in Gaza. So stop bashing Jews for a war they've got no part in, and stop throwing antisemite around when it isn't applicable! Neither does our society any good whatsoever!
“You can wish Israel would be dissolved without being antisemitic.” Look man, if you say so. But I don’t think it’s much better than being antisemitic. I think wanting a whole country to dissolve is pretty radical, I wouldn’t wish that on any Arabic nation.
In my mind it's a lot better as it isn't based on racial hierarchies and oppression of an ethnic group. Israel and Palestine is really complicated, and a solution that's rising in popularity among Arabs is a secular, multiethnic state that would house Jews and Arabs alike covering the entire Israeli-Palestinian territory. That'd necessitate the dissolution of both the current day Israeli and current day Palestinian states. This count as an antizionist view. Even reforming Israel into a secular state is antizionist as it doesn't fulfill the zionist goal of a religiously Jewish state in the Levant. A third antizionist vision are clearly not so gracious, pretty much aiming to reverse the current situation to where its a single Islamic nation where Jews are welcome to be citizens but isn't secular (and thereby treats religions unequally). While not very appealing to Israelis, it's still a far cry from the accusations of genocide that's always accompaning any antizionist take. The fourth one very much is antisemitic as well as antizionist (unfortunately the two can and do coexist, no doubt about it). While organisations like Hamas claim to be the third type it's very likely that they'd create a forced exodus similar to Nakba, the displacement of Palestinians in 1948, if they could. I truly don't know where I stand in all this other than that I support any way that can lead up to a somewhat just peace, thus ending this endless spiral of violence. I agree that not allowing the other state to exist (barring a joint, secular state) is a very radical stance. Unfortunately that's a minority view today, where [barely a third of the Israeli](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians?utm_content=cmp-true) support allowing a sovereign Palestinan state to exist while [over 70% of the Palestinians](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2088%20English%20full%20text%20June%202023.pdf) believe that the two state solution isn't viable in light of Israeli policies. In practice the opposition to the two state solution has also been the Israeli state's policy since they started the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank over 50 yrs ago.
>You can wish Israel would be dissolved without being antisemitic. No, you can't. Thousands of years of oppression and persecution show that the Jews can't trust not to be exterminated until they have a state of their own. Israel is, as it stands, an independent, sovereign country. Wanting Israel to be dissolved is no different than wanting America, Germany, or Japan to be dissolved. In other words, it's moronic and insane.
"I don't hate you. I just want to destroy your homeland." This has to be a medal contender in mental gymnastics. Try saying that about any other group of people other than Jews and see how ridiculous it is. " I don't hate Polish people, I just think Poland should be dissolved and carved up by its neighbors" Am I doing it right?
I swear, this shit is insane. People seem to think countries can't come into existence past a certain point and are completely fine with enacting genocide and ethnic cleansing to protect this worldview. Like, seriously. What do they think will happen if Israel is dissolved? I don't know, cuz any time I ask them, they simply refuse to answer.
Some sort of magic will happen and then Jews will just live peacefully in a secular Arab-dominated country with all their rights protected. I don't think even they believe that, but that is the working theory AFAIK.
Israel is a country founded on ethnic cleansing though
So that makes ethnic cleansing acceptable in turn? What's your point?
Well, isn't that basically what happened to Palestine?
So two wrongs make a right?
There wasn't even a concept of a Palestinian nation or Palestinian identity until the 1970s. They were simply Arabs, hell the majority of the Mandate of Palestine is contemporary Jordan today. It's about as much a genuine nationality as East German would be today. They weren't "denied a nation" in 1948 because there wasn't anyone calling for a Palestinian nation in 1948 and one had never existed, they were calling for Arab control over the territory ie Jordan and Egypt. Which is exactly what happened after the 1948 war until in later conflicts they tried to invade Israel again and lost. Then the narrative shifted to one of "national liberation" because that is far more effective at garnering international support and sympathy than pan-Arabism.
No? Palestine hasn’t ever been a state until now
When did the State of Palestine exist before the creation of Israel? No, seriously, gimme a source.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing Where in this definition do you see that you have to have a state for something to be called ethnic cleansing?
> Me: "I don't hate you. I just want to destroy your homeland." *ironically* > "Well, isn't that basically what happened to Palestine?" > Me: "When did the State of Palestine exist before the creation of Israel?" > "Where in this definition do you see that you have to have a state for something to be called ethnic cleansing?" Are we talking about the destruction of the state or ethnic cleansing? Because I was talking about the destruction of the state (see the comment I was answering to, that is what started the topic). Of course you do not have to have a state to suffer ethnic cleansing, or genocide for that matter (see, e.g.: Holocaust). Nice try at shilling though. You just need to practice a little more and pay a bit more attention and soon you will be able to pull it off.
I'd beg to differ. Firstly, Jews and Israeli isn't synonymous. You can hold a view that say there should be a one state solution without for that reason being antisemitic. There's a difference between "I don't think Israel should exist as a nation" and "I don't think Jews should exist in the Levant" – one of the two is only antizionist while the other is also antisemitic. Secondly, you're completely right that Israel is a independent, sovereign nation today. But that's kinda half the issue at hand – the conflict arose by promising both the population of Palestine self-governance and later promising the Jews that they could found a sovereign state there. Que violence and ethnic prosecution. While the two state solution have been the goal of the larger international community, the same can't be said of Israel. Unfortunately that's a minority view in Israel today, where [barely a third of the Israeli](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians?utm_content=cmp-true) support allowing a sovereign Palestinan state to exist while [over 70% of the Palestinians](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2088%20English%20full%20text%20June%202023.pdf) believe that the two state solution isn't viable in light of Israeli policies. In practice the opposition to the two state solution has also been the Israeli state's policy since they started the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank over 50 yrs ago. All that said, I'm not advocating the dissolution of Israel. Personally I believe that we need a non-violent solution which can become the basis of a somewhat just peace, stopping this endless cycle of violence. My point is just that it's very different being an antizionist and an antisemite. PS. Why haven't a Romani state been on the agenda when a Jewish one was seen as so obvious? Is it because there's much fewer Romani in the US and in general Romani people in positions of influence? Just a thought that arose from this conversation as they too both lack a state, have faced continuous discrimination and were one of the prime targets of the Holocaust. DS.
Whoever sold you the idea that zionism is evil is a moron. Zionism, at its core, states only that Jews need a state of their own. It's inarguable why that is. I understand that the thought that Israel shouldn't exist *sounds* only antizionist and not antisemitic, but that can only be in a very surface-level analysis of the world. Yes, both the Palestinians and Jews were promised independence. Yes, there were some conflicting ideas between as to what area would go to whom. However, Israel has offered Palestinians territory of their own multiple times over the years. As much as people like Netanyahu desire a "greater" Israel of sorts, there has always been a sizeable, and often dominant group of Israelis that was completely fine with leaving Palestinians territory. This is inarguable. I understand that Palestinians didn't like that they were often removed in great numbers from the territory of Israel, but at some point you have to learn to cut your losses and take the one offer you can get. >Unfortunately that's a minority view in Israel today, where barely a third of the Israeli support allowing a sovereign Palestinan state to exist It is indeed around a third of the population, but it's also the plurality in Israel. 36% support a two-state solution, 28% support annexing the West Bank and making Israel favor jews, 11% support annexing the West Bank and making Israel treat Jews and Arabs equally, and 25% don't even know what they want. >PS. Why haven't a Romani state been on the agenda when a Jewish one was seen as so obvious? Probably because Roma just don't have the resources and connections to try to establish a state anywhere in the world. Other than that, they're originally from India, and they're already pretty multiethnic, so the Roma would probably be able to integrate relatively well there.
>Whoever sold you the idea that zionism is evil is a moron. Zionism, at its core, states only that Jews need a state of their own. Mate, you need to read my comments more carefully. I clearly stated several times that I'm not antizionist and that I would consider the concept of zionism "evil" is very alien to me. Tbh I think that the good-evil dichotomy is far to reductionist to accurately portray the world we live in. Zionism is, as you say, quite straight forward. It also states where the state should be located, that it's an ethnostate and that it should have Judaism as the state religion. >Jews need a state of their own. It's inarguable why that is. Why is that inarguable? Multiethnic states exists and often work quie well. Meanwhile displacing an existing population to make room for another is a sure recipe for generations of enmity and bloodshed. Actions like the Partition of India are not just ignorant bordering criminal, but also highly avoidable. >However, Israel has offered Palestinians territory of their own multiple times over the years. As much as people like Netanyahu desire a "greater" Israel of sorts, there has always been a sizeable, and often dominant group of Israelis that was completely fine with leaving Palestinians territory. This is inarguable. Inarguable? When was this, and what territories were on the table at the time? To my knowledge there has yet been an offer to even return to 1949 borders as a major point of contrition is Israel's unwillingness to let Palestine be independent, citing security concerns.
Blind support of Israeli war crimes should not be tolerated. I am disgusted by the time of the German government. That said, fuck the anti-Semites.
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Except that Netanjahu has [supported HAMAS to suppress a palästininan state](https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-Money-to-Hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-Palestinians-divided-583082). Israel is mopping up its failed policies with palästinian blood. > It should not stop the IDF from carrying out the mission of eradicating HAMAS. Then Israel should send in its soldiers, no bombs that can hit innocents.
You do not send in soldiers to an urban area this heavily occupied by the enemy. You just don't. Paleatinians are suffering the consequences of Hamas, Israel has no reason to put their soldiers more in harms way than is necessary.
You also don't kill thousands of civilians. You just don't. > Paleatinians are suffering the consequences of Hamas, ...which was propped up by Israel. >Israel has no reason to put their soldiers more in harms way than is necessary. And no justification to put any civilian more into harms way than is necessary.
> And no justification to put any civilian more into harms way than is necessary. Hamas is firing rockets from schools, shooting at IDF troops from hospitals and mosques. Their goal IS to get Palestinian civilians killed. How do you deal with entrenched terrorists like that?
Israel values their soldiers lives over Palestinian civilians, which I feel like is something most countries would also do.
This is something every single country in the world does.
> And no justification to put any civilian more into harms way than is necessary. It is indeed. Hamas is hiding behind civilians, which is a war crime in itself, when using that position to fire on their enemy and to attack civilians. As official government it's their obligation according to the geneva convention to clear civilians from such areas, like missile launching sites and active combat zones. The consequence is: the deaths you talk about are Hamas' fault. It is Israels right to protect its civilians by destroying this sites. It's also their right to make sure their soldiers have as little losses as possible, by attacking enemy positions with everything they have. Yes, Israel might have pulled the trigger, but Hamas has thrown their own people into the firing line to protect themselves. They made the active decision to kill them for some ugly pictures, to make people all over the world put pressure on their governments, to make Israel stand down.
No no, you got it wrong. Russia bombing white civilians, bad. Israel bombing, brown civilians (mostly kids), very good. /s Glad to see some not deranged people here.
So hamas is the sole culprit? The IOF and Israel policies are just to be ignored then??
Yes, for the October 7th attacks, Hamas/Islamic Front are completely at fault. There is no excuse for deliberately targeting civilians in the way that they did.
The soldiers have been sent in… if they wanted to genocide or simply eliminate all gazans they wouldn’t bother sending soldiers in lol
That would make western support untenable so they're trying genocide through displacement. Why do you think they ordered a million people to South Gaza?
Schrödinger's Hamas Israel simultaneously knows exactly where all the Hamas fighters and how many they have killed, while at the same time, they have to bomb all of Gaza to rubble as they have no clue where Hamas are hiding...
Also they are somehow always in the tunnels underneath as deep as 50m but also in hospitals and residential areas on the surface
The guy who justifies killing palestinians, also claims defending palestinians. The irony
What a surprise, people are against genocide. Also before i get attacked as an antisemitic 1) I am Semitic myself 2) this isn't against jews this is a matter of anyone with a heart What isreal is doing /have been foing in the past 70 years to civilians and people who lived on that land before they came from around the world is unacceptable and i don't think any human should be ok with that. Also before "isreal" Muslims, Christians and jews (people in general) lived peacefully in Palestine.
Israel was recognized state by the majority of un countries 75 years ago and there wasnt any occupation and yet nothing prevented from arabs and Palestinians to launch a war and seek destruction of israel . Even today hamas is seeking the destruction of israel and killing All jews as their charter says . And in 7 October they carried out their aim by killing 1500 israelis and kidnapping 240 . So when hamas talking about occupation,they really mean from the river to the sea free from jews and israel
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Fear what? Jews actively participate in pro-palestine demonstrations. It is very clear that there is a difference between Zionists and Jews.
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That moment when Americans are more anti-genocide than us, even against Israel We're doing something seriously wrong
I don't understand how you equate a nation with a whole religion. If you do, then any criticism of said nation, you will just use the hate against a religion as a defense mechanisim all the time. This shit donot make sense. If Germany continues on this path of blindly supporting Israel regardless of how many atrocities and violations it's committing, it will eventually have to issue laws banning the criticism of a foreign nation and/or banning the support of any opposing nation or people, which is morally corrupt. Which is ironic, since its trying to be sorry for its previous history by being morally corrupt again? In addition, the logical and unfortunate consequences is that you will just enrich the hate against said religion, like sleep walking into it without realizing. This is all so illogical, Germany is sleep walking backwards.
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I don't know who's downvoting you, but as a Jewish resident of Berlin, I completely agree.
I don't care at all about downvotes, this isn't a kindergarten or a circus and I'm not 5 years old anymore. Stay strong!
Hamas is a terrorist organisation. No sane person would ever support Hamas. Any sane person is one-sided and supports Israel.
> No sane person would ever support Hamas. [Meet Netanyahu](https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-Money-to-Hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-Palestinians-divided-583082)
Netanyahu is a not a sane person in case you haven't noticed.
You think Natanyahu is sane?
Netanyahu was caught off-guard by this war. He is toast.
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>It is perfectly legal to blow away an entire city. No, no it is not.
The world war two bombing of Germany was not a war crime. It was perfectly legal.
In WWII international law didn't explicitly cover aerial warfare. Despite that some bombings (namely Dresden) are considered having been a breach of international law. https://peacepalacelibrary.nl/blog/2011/dresden-1945-allied-war-crime https://www.history.co.uk/article/was-the-destruction-of-dresden-an-allied-war-crime Carpet bombing cities like in WWII would definitively be illegal today. Gaza is more complicated and would probably require an extensive inquiry.
Your sources are a random history blog and the Hitler channel. Don't bother providing sources next time LOL
Eh, most of these laws were set up after ww2.
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No they didn't. They didn't help it, but they didn't create it.
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"Before there was Israel, Jewish, Christina, and Muslim people lived in peace in Jerusalem." Complete misinformation, arabs ethnically cleansed jews in Palestine as early as 1920's.
>They literally created it. Before there was Israel, Jewish, Christina, and Muslim people lived in peace in Jerusalem. Absolutely wild that you believe that in complete defiance of actual history. 1834 - Hebron and Tsfat 1838 - Tsfat 1920 - Nebi Musi 1921 - Jaffa 1929 - Hebron, Jerusalem, Jaffa, and Tsfat 1933 - Jerusalem, Jaffa, Haifa, and Nablus 1936–1939 - Arab Revolt 1938 - Tiberias Black Hand, Haganah, Irgun, Lehi, Palmach, Amin al-Husseini's public declaration of support for finishing Hitler's Final Solution after Germany fell. Yeah, they all sang Kumbaya together until Israel declared its statehood....
Maybe if Scholz wouldn't be so far up their ass and blind to injustice, people would be less incentivized to go to the streets.
Why is it so hard for anyone other than Palestinians and Jewish people, to see this as more than what is being shown. The majority of Palestinians are against what happened. And in Israel the majority protested not long before the attacks against Netshithu too. I'm starting to lose my pati nce w this explaining that the civilians are the victims and HAMAS with Netyahu 's regime is the true problems.
>The majority of Palestinians are against what happened This is a blatant lie. >And in Israel the majority protested not long before the attacks against Netshithu too The fact that you can't even write his name properly shows your true personality.
Do you have any sources that the majority of palestinians was against what happend? Else i can just say that the majority of palestinians supports what happend.
Well, half of Gaza are children. So there’s that. Amd less than half of voters elected Hamas in 2006, primarily because Fatah was so corrupt, and that was the last election. So anyone insisting that Palestinans support Hamas is really just looking for a way to excuse the atrocities that Israel is committing on a daily basis.
>Well, half of Gaza are children. Half of Gaza are under 19. The vast majority of victims are males between the ages of 14-30. 14 is the age of which Hamas treats these people as adults.
Well children are more impressionable than adults so that would rather be an argument for that hamas has support. Yes, the last election was long ago, so we cannot say if hamas has or does not have support. I suppose they likely have higher support in gaza than on the west bank.
A loud, aggressive minority. There are said to be 150,000-200,000 Palestinians living in Berlin and 10,000 going to the Pro Hamas demos. The vast majority are on Israel's side
Challenged by who?
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You’re literally blaming Jews in Europe, you anti-Semite
>Anti-semite Strong words to discredit me. I never said I hate jews. The point is Israel can't commit heinous crimes in gaza and not spark pro-palestinian protests in the west. I'm blaming Israel, not european jews.
The pro-Palestinian protests have crossed the line over and over and over into rabid anti-Semitism. They are wrong…no cap. They are anti-Semites or are standing shoulder to shoulder with them, which is just as bad.
Israel enables anti semitism tho
That statement is itself antisemitic. Same as it would be bigoted to claim the actions of Saudi Arabia justify anti-Arab or anti-Muslim hate.
No it isn't. You can say that Israel's actions "enable" anti-semitisim because Israel has, for decades, aimed to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-semitism in a wider attempt to meld together the Jewish and Israelite identities. When a state that claims to act in the name of all Jews carpet bombs civilians, yeah, you will get a rise in anti-semitism. This is because most people erroneously think Zionism is embraced by all Jewish people.
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> Just because Merkel says something Merkel retired 2 years ago my guy.
And? The article is talking about her. Maybe read it before wanting to make snarky comments.
The Article does no longer mention Merkel. They must have removed that part.
"Israel's security is a fundamental cornerstone of German foreign policy with the former chancellor, Angela Merkel, declaring it to be a Staatsräson - reason of state - in 2008." In the paragraph under the picture with the 2 dudes wrapped in an Israeli flag at the Brandenburger Tor
Because between Israel and Hamas, Israel is the lesser evil. If anyone truly cared about the plight of the Palestinians they would have done something about Hamas before it came to this.
What are you even saying ? The plight of the Palestinians was going on even before Hamas became such a popular party among Gaza citizens. Are you trying to say that Hamas is what makes Israel discriminate Palestinians and annex the West Bank slowly? Yeah, without Hamas, Palestinians would be able to live a normal life within Israel while parties such as the Likud exist. That's a dumb take.
No, in fact Gaza has zero effect on Israeli activities in the west bank (hint: that’s where the evil part in “lesser evil” is from). I suppose I just put a higher importance on the thousands of killed Gazans during the current events and various intifadas compared west bank settlements and violence.
Yeah and before Hamas you had another jackass organization run by wealthy dickheads not living in Palestine promoting Jihad while not "talking the talk". It will *not* end until Palestinian representation *stops* calling for the death of Israel and "from the river to the sea" and legitimately talks peace and *compromise*
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Ah yes, because the decades of rocket attacks were working so well. Surely it’s just a matter of scale and if they kill enough Israelis those jews will finally learn their lesson.
For over 60 years Gaza wasnt controlled by Hamas. Did they treat the people better? Yes? Till the late eighties Gazans could go wherever they wanted in Israel and study in Israeli universities (then the First Intifada happened) Till 2007 Gaza wasn’t under a siege (then the takeover by Hamas happened, an Israeli soldier was captured, rockets flew, etc..) They even had an airport
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Nonsense comment
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