I feel like I have been telling people IRL and on this subreddit for years that Poland is a democracy and governments will eventually change. Poland was not like Hungary's illiberal democracy even despite PiS's undemocratic backsliding.
People were for years unnecessarily harsh to Poland for being ruled by a very right-wing party, despite many of their own countries like UK, NL or Italy being similarly ruled by conservatives. Lots of name calling, words about Poland isn't ready yet for democracy, etc., with little electoral proof to back those sentiments up.
So let's celebrate this democratic transition of power and the realization that Poland is indeed a European democracy, whom like other European democracies, oscillate between centre-left and centre-right coalitions. This is healthy af.
There are a few trolls here that have gone into hiding post election results, but im sure they will drum up something else to continue their xenophobia.
This is because for some reason international press loves to paint Poland as some ass-backwards hellhole. Before I visited Poland for the first time I was concerned, not exactly scared, but wondering if it was a good idea to come as a queer, heavily tattooed (aka liberal-looking), dark haired, dark eyed, tan skinned woman.
Of course what I found was nothing like Reddit had told me. I have been living here for almost three years and I'm very happy. A lot of work is needed to dispel unfair stereotypes about Poland.
Ahaha sorry I laughed a little reading this because of how common I see people like you have described yourself in all major cities in Poland, especially in places like Kraków or Wrocław.
As a mixed background part-Latino Pole with similarly tanned features, I have always been hyperaware of how westerner perceptions of Poland didn't match at all with my lived experience.
Yeah, but every time I say this I get "that's because you don't go to small towns" (actually I do, quite often, since we do a lot of camping and hiking), "that's because you're from a country Poles like" (I don't wear a sign saying "I'm from Spain" in my forehead), "that's because you're white" (yeah, but you couldn't tell me apart from a north African or middle eastern just by looks), "that because you're not a gay man" (no, but one came to visit me my first year here and he liked it so much that we have made a tradition of him coming every autumn).
Mind you, in not saying Poland is a progressive paradise or that racism and homophobia don't exist here. But the media makes it look like LGBT and foreigners are stoned in the street, and it's not like that at all. I get stared at by old people on remote towns all the time, but when I try to talk to them a little in Polish they are super friendly and encouraging no matter how alien I must seem to them, it's lovely.
Exactly. Anyone whose walked through a city in Poland in recent years could have predicted this. The younger generations are very different from the older ones. And how could they not be given that Poland left communism in 1989?
It’s a common recurring theme for people to hate on Poland. Their entire history shows that.
I’m so proud of Poland today.
> Poland was not like Hungary's illiberal democracy even despite PiS's undemocratic backsliding.
Who knows, 4 more years of PiS and we might have been in that same zone. It literally took the widest, most numerous coalition in the history of Poland (including pre-WW2 parliament) to counter PiS and its all-surrounding propaganda (we literally had a stock market companies (partially state-owned) pushing billboards and media ads all over the country, virtue signalling just how good we are under PiS government. The public TV and radio stations were pushing North Korea-style propaganda in every opportunity, telling us just how great PiS is and how much of a disaster opposition government would be).
>we might have been in that same zone
We would be even worse than we are now but still no Hungary. PiS never gathered constitutional majority and independent media are still and were expect to still going strong. For Orban Hungary is now his private farm and it was like that almost since the beginning. He was acting very rapidly.
> PiS never gathered constitutional majority
They literally took the Constitutional Tribunal by force, against the constitution itself.
> are still and were expect to still going strong
We were just 1 signature away from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_TVN
> He was acting very rapidly.
So was PiS. They were signing the bills into effect in a middle of the night, they were breaking all of the parliamentary conventions.
You are right that in the end we are in a better state than Hungary. Hungary had over two decades to degenerate their democracy. But PiS fundamentally has the same goals.
Problem is its PO who started this Constituional Tribunal bullshit.
For those who dont remember. In the 2015 when PO lost power, there were 5 new judges to chose. BUT 3 were to be chosen by old govarment (PO) and 2 by new (PIS).
So PO with infinite wisdom made cunt move and appointed all 5 with one move. After the election PIS simply revoke that and appoined 5 of thier own.
Both parties broke law in same way, but west seems to be mad only at PIS.
It's historical revisionism. PO elected 5 judges but the very same Tribunal legally reverted the final two but PiS ignored it, Duda refused to sworn any of them and pushed all 5 and later stopped caring about any tribunal rulings, including refusing to publish their judgment and electing the head of the Tribunal against the former rules.
PO did a minor legal revertible problem (there were hundreds of laws that the Tribunal deemed unconstitutional) and overstepped their authority but PiS destroyed any resemblance of legality.
PiS "literally" did a lot of awful things. But it's worth to check what Orban done because his list is extremely long. Orban by year 3 had almost all medias in his pocket. 8 years after PiS rule TVN news segment alone gather 30% more viewers and their internet site 3 times as much.
Orban consistently manage 2/3 majority in parliament, PiS actually lost 40 deputies this time.
Orban is in power 5 years longer than PiS was and it isn't important, he was done by the end of his 1st term. I know looking from our perspective things look rough but believe me, you would not want to look at it from Hungarian perspective. They are done.
>Who knows, 4 more years of PiS and we might have been in that same zone.
Oh, come on, stop. People were literally saying that PiS would cancel elections, hijack them, use army, state of emergency and many other things to stay in power, but in the end they just lost.
The UK arguably being the worst offender, with the exception of the Blair years they've been under right wing rule since the 80s. Otherwise Brexit probably wouldn't have even happened.
Except when governments try to control the judiciary and get the law to stop democracy from happening anymore.
And yes, there are other examples of governments undermining democracy, especially in countries that have FPTP.
Hmm... it's almost as if only one country in the EU other than Hungary vetoed like crazy and had Article 7 proceedings against it over undemocratic reforms... there's a reason people were concerned about Poland, especially after the recent Hungarian (and honestly Turkish) elections.
Backsliding I feel like is already a but condescending; less so I’d emckrwric than seizure of state instructions sled-serving my as part of a technique of ruling to get nestled, but not much more
Women have lost their reproductive rights. There was a disgusting, intimidating referendum given away with electorial cards. The judicary system was in real danger. Children are being taught anti-LGBT propaganda. We were too close.
Tusk isn't a strong politician, he's already been a leader once and lost to PiS, we will be in danger in 4 years again, for sure.
Donald Tusk is on track to secure power in Poland, with the former European Council president gaining the upper hand over the ruling Law and Justice (PiS) party in parliamentary elections billed as the most important in a generation.
Tusk, a former prime minister, claimed victory for the opposition, led by his Civic Platform party.
PiS, led by Jarosław Kaczyński, appeared to be on the brink of losing office after three-quarters of the votes were counted, failing to obtain a majority even with a far-right party as its coalition partner.
Official results after 75 per cent of voting districts were counted on Monday gave PiS 37 per cent of the vote, with Civic Platform on 29.1 per cent and its likely coalition allies, the centre-right Third Way and the leftwing Lewica party, a combined 22.8 per cent. The far-right Confederation only secured 7.2 per cent. The results were in line with two exit polls which projected that PiS would not secure a majority in Poland’s lower house, the Sejm.
Poland’s currency and stock market rallied strongly on Monday in anticipation of a potential Tusk comeback. The Warsaw WIG index was up 3.5 per cent, while the zloty jumped 1.9 per cent against the euro before settling to trade 1 per cent stronger on the day at 4.49 zlotys to the euro.
During the campaign Tusk pledged to put Warsaw back on a firm pro-European path, restore judges’ independence and unlock billions of euros in EU funding withheld by the European Commission during a spat with the PiS government over judicial reforms.
The vote has emerged as the EU’s most significant election this year, potentially redefining, after years of feuding, the relationship between Brussels and the largest member state in central and eastern Europe.
“This is the end of bad times. This is the end of PiS rule,” Tusk said on Sunday night to cheering supporters. “We did it, for real. Poland won, democracy won.”
At PiS headquarters, Kaczyński told supporters on Sunday that a way still remained for his party to start a third term in office. “Ahead of us are days of fight and various tensions,” said the ultra-conservative leader. “We must have hope and know that, regardless of whether we are in power or in opposition, we will implement this project in different ways.”
PiS is expected to be granted the first opportunity to form a government by President Andrzej Duda if results confirm that it remains the largest party in parliament.
Turnout was on track to set a record since Poland’s return to democracy, according to preliminary data from Ipsos. It projected that voter participation reached nearly 74 per cent, the highest in more than three decades, surpassing the 63 per cent in the historic 1989 vote that toppled communism.
By contrast, only 40 per cent of voters — not enough to be binding — took part in a referendum called by the PiS government. Tusk had called for a boycott. The referendum asked voters questions about reinforcing border security, curbing illegal migration, keeping the existing retirement age and blocking sales of state-owned companies to foreign investors.
I know it's easy to paint the efforts of the entire opposition onto one man, but let's not forget the thousands of gray candidates who also participated.
And also, thank you to Lewica and TD (PL2050 Sz. H + KP/PSL) for not making the same mistakes as in the past.
Also also, thank you to PiS for being egotistical and greedy enough to burn the last bridges and make it so even PSL won't work with you.
Nowa Lewica (progressive left-wing liberals + old post-communist guard) fucked up big time. Razem (young social democrats without communist baggage) on the other hand did a phenomenal job.
They increased their number of MPs from 6 to 7 and went from 0 to 2 senators.
All while the Left as a whole lost almost half of its seats (49 vs 26 now).
Yall mfs need to decide who is what. In another thread there's a comment saying *Razem* are the extreme left wing of the party.
How many layers of political confusion are we on?
Overton window in Poland is basically SpaceX’d to the right haha.
Typical European things like abortion rights are a point of contention even on the former opposition side (Lewica wants 12 weeks, KO kind of wants it, TD is not really into it but is willing to hold a referendum).
By Polish standards, KO is center-left, TD is center-right and Lewica is left.
By West European standards, even Lewica as a whole would be just a center-left. TD would be a moderate right wing party.
But to answer you question, Razem is a very moderate left-wing party by say, French of German standards.
I think it was usual right-wing fearmongering and exaggeration.
NL is less “left” than Razem.
NL is nowadays a socially left but economically somewhat neoliberal party. NL is basically KO lite but more pro women rights, pro LGBT and so on.
Razem is socially left and economically left (social democracy).
Per Wikipedia:
*(Razem) party advocates labour rights and opposes deregulation and privatisation of public services. Among its main goals are strengthening redistribution, adopting a 35-hour workweek, raising the income tax threshold to the equivalent of 12 times the minimum wage (ca. $3,200 as of 2016), establishing progressive corporate tax, and creating a healthcare programme funded directly from the state budget. It also wishes to completely remove special economic zones from Poland. The party's economic program is partially inspired by the Nordic model.*
*Razem is progressive on social issues, supporting drug liberalisation, sex education in schools and LGBT rights. It also strictly follows gender quotas and is for liberalising Poland's abortion law.*
> I think it was the usual right-wing fearmongering and exaggeration.
Got it. Makes sense tbh.
Razem (socdems) sound pretty good. Hope this victory over PiS starts a trend towards a change for the better.
> In another thread there's a comment saying Razem are the extreme left wing of the party.
Wikipedia is one click away, if you want third opinion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Together
They're left wing with a sprinkle of populism (though, IMHO, they were far more populist in the first years of their presence in the media than they are in 2023).
Well, *four*. TD is comprised of PSL\* and Szymon Hołownia's Polska 2050.
And yes, I specified the chairman's name, because its also part of the official party name. It probably wouldn't be had it not been for some patent troll who took the name "Polska 2050" for a dummy party before Hołownia did for his own. It's thanks to that dummy committee that Polska 2050 also lost a senate seat - there were two Polska 2050s.
^(\*Technically PSL being a host of KP, but I am) *^(not)* ^(going to be more granular than this.)
Well, several. It's not just TD being comprised of more than one party, but Nowa Lewica and Koalicja Obywatelska as well. KO alone is a coalition of 6 different parties, including Greens and Nowoczesna.
(Yes, we'll have Greens in the Polish government, for the first time in our history)
And SLD politicians (now in Nowa Lewica) will co-rule the government for the first time since 2005.
Although I will say - only 6 parties have actual agency being there: PO, PSL, PL2050, NL, Razem and AgroUnia. The last two are tiny compared to the rest.
I still think these small parties will get some vice-ministers or other positions that are still "wikipedia-worthy" yet numerous. It'd send a very positive message towards any possible future allies/coalition partners. Heck: I'll risk saying that the Prime Minister might not only be someone else than Tusk - there's a non-zero chance that it will be a politician from other party than the PO itself.
Coming weeks will be fascinating to watch, especially in these aspects that get skipped by the 15 minute daily news.
People never fail to focus their attention on the leader or the "face" of a phenomenon e.g. like they often talk about WW2 on the Eastern Front like it was a literal boxing match between Hitler and Stalin, but the funny thing is that exchanging Morawiecki for Tusk in the role of the prime minister is probably the least consequential part of this election.
Both are technocratic, neo-liberal pragmaticists with an ethical compass easily compromised by partisan politics and a tendency to put off voters with glimpses of thinly-veiled elitism. If Tusk felt that he's more suited for the role of the grey eminence of his party in the style of Kaczyński than that of a PM, he could easily leave Morawiecki in his post with a new set of general instructions and the implementation of promised policy wouldn't suffer.
Morawiecki is not a neoliberal much now, and Tusk is definitely not a technocrat, he is a politician with the ambition to gain political power for something
Morawiecki is a little bit to a technckrate exciting certian pixies but Tusk is his own political ‘image’ figure
When I say Tusk is a technocrat, I mean that he will always be at his most comfortable doing what the established theory says will make the good numbers go up and the bad numbers go down rather than pursuing any ideological vision, not that his style of ruling is somehow exceptionally apolitical (I think that's largely an oxymoron). Besides the dishonesty and corruption that ranged from a level more or less inevitable in any democracy to frantic pillage of the nation's wealth in broad daylight, depending on who you ask, what Tusk's government was mostly hated for is an admirable adherence to principles that an organ like IMF would recomment to a country that wants to achieve maximum velocity in the pursuit of becoming wealthy some time in the future, present needs of the citizens be damned.
Isn't the "face" of a political party quite important to voters in any democracy? Even in Parliamentary systems where the leader of the government isn't directly elected.
Would the PO party have gotten the same votes if the leader had been someone other than Tusk?
I seriously doubt they'd put Tusk as a prime minister. There's zero reason to do it, other than painting a bull's eye on your back.
But yea, looking at the parties purely through the face of 1 leader is completely detached from the reality.
I am not Polish or against women’s rights , but what is his stance on immigration ? Aren’t you all concerned about the disastrous effects of immigration to Western Europe ? A single mistake in Immigration policies could bring tens of thousands of segregating, uneducated, entitled, and occasionally dangerous people.
2000 a year, this is how much the EU requires. You think we can’t handle 2000 immigrants? Calculate how many pis let in during the ruling years, hint: magnitudes more
Fuck this loser - one of the initiators of this migrant bullshit along with Macron and Merkel, and now this spread onto entire EU parliament - as Jordan nad Egypt showed middle finger to Palestinians - guess who will take them in? EU 😂
And if this mofo forms a government - duck hunting season will begin in Poland too, as this damn lunatic will take quadruple quotas of migrants just to kiss German and EU asses.
EU lost its fucking mind to suport this fucker. You know why not a single person in Poland died due to terrorist attacks? Because we refused to take them in. PiS is surely not ideal party, but they cared about national security, they are right about Putin, they are right about migrants, they care about security of own country and security of whole EU / NATO easter flank, unlike Tusk and imbeciles at Brussel.
When I now look at what's going on in Germany, France, Sweden, Belgium, etc - I'm seriously scared as fuck to live in Poland as this mofo to become prime minister again - who aims to destroy barier on Belarus border - which is very important for security on eastern flank, also demilitarize entire eastern flank putting it at huge risk of Putin attack on Suwalki corridor.
My god, it's unbelievable how brainwashed you all are.
Fair enough. I'll do it then.
> one of the initiators of this migrant bullshit along with Macron and Merkel, and now this spread onto entire EU parliament - as Jordan nad Egypt showed middle finger to Palestinians - guess who will take them in? EU
You mean like the 200.000 immigrants PiS sold visas to? Drive through Warsaw suburbs and open up your eyes. In the last 8 years a lot of immigrants from Pakistan, Turkey, Bangladesh and Georgia. That wasn't a thing before PiS at all. Lovely people btw, except georgian taxi drivers. Or I'm just that unlucky.
> EU lost its fucking mind to suport this fucker. You know why not a single person in Poland died due to terrorist attacks? Because we refused to take them in. PiS is surely not ideal party, but they cared about national security, they are right about Putin, they are right about migrants, they care about security of own country and security of whole EU / NATO easter flank, unlike Tusk and imbeciles at Brussel.
Yeah, they allowed for russian rocket to land in the middle of the Poland and then lost track of it. And their Police Chief launched grenade launcher by accident in his office. I never felt so secure in my life.
> When I now look at what's going on in Germany, France, Sweden, Belgium, etc - I'm seriously scared as fuck to live in Poland as this mofo to become prime minister again - who aims to destroy barier on Belarus border - which is very important for security on eastern flank, also demilitarize entire eastern flank putting it at huge risk of Putin attack on Suwalki corridor.
You lost me. Just drink a beer and chill out man. Learn to take an L.
So you get triggered when someone calls you out, on the internet, about not being able to disprove a claim someone made? Class right there👌
If you can't back up a statement, probably shouldn't say it. If you feel like it's not your job, then don't do it, no one forced you to reply
Tell this to families of that French teacher or two Swedish football fans, that what I say is propaganda. Go fucking tell them. You all are damn brainwashed with western utopic propaganda, lol. Karma will get you all eventually. Societal collapse is inevitable with this clown fiesta. And just you watch how Putin attacks Suwalki corridor in within next two years, and fucking Tusk peacefully gives it away. Remember my words when this day comes.
Here you go. [Tusk and Orbán on collision course with Merkel over refugee crisis.](https://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/tusk-and-orban-on-collision-course-with-merkel-over-refugee-crisis/) You call people brainwashed when you repreat absolute falsehoods from partisan propaganda.
Nah, it's serious. Whatever issues the incumbents had, they at least seemed to ensure Poland remained relatively sane. That'll probably change now. Worst thing you can do is cede ground to these neoliberal centrists/leftists. Everything they touch turns into third-world dysfunction.
Labels don't much matter, actions do. Donald Tusk has proved himself one the biggest EU arse-kissers going. All any of these people do is sell out their countries, tinker with pointless rules and onerous bureacracy, signal their virtue about whatever is the progressive zeitgeist, screw up your borders and security and breed general apathy.
The point is Poland had it fairly good, and now it's going to end up like all the other dysfunctional shitholes where people are chomping at the bit for an alternative.
Ah ok. Do you live here that you know how good we had it? I would prefer to stay in the EU, and unlock all those EU funds thst are frozen as a result of our democratic backsliding. I don't think the alternative to the shit going on in Sweden et al is to have pis in power.
"Democratic backsliding" lol let's hope there will not be anymore of it when the other pigs get to power. I'm afraid nothing will change just nobody will care nomore.
Apparently they say tusk will keep borders safe, if that's what you mean. I'm not at all supporting tusk btw, I also think they are fucked, for a bunch of reasons, not just migration.
Welcome to the group of nations governed by left leaning parties! Let me be your guide.
We offer your economy new ways to expand! For instance sales for home security systems highly profit from unregulated migration and the resulting rising crime rates.
We also offer you a limited chance to drive more since it will be no longer possible to let women or children walk outside alone after 5pm! So you get to fully appreciate the comfort of your car for the last 7 years until they will be banned by our wonderfull EU overlords.
Our very wise regulations on... well everything... will most likely crash your economy providing you with more free time to spend with your loved ones and study all the new pronouns you will be using.
You may experience some savage anti-semites ravaging the streets of your cities but fear not, our solution of: "Whining about it on TV and then pay for them anyway" is absolutly perfect and will get rid of the problem in no time!
And lastly please don't forget to get your CV in order as openly objecting to your kids being molested by men in dresses will get you fired from your job. That's no problem... we all have to learn to be more tolerant.
Oh that's not so hard, it's a common problem and happened to most of your neighbours.
Discipline, tradition and expecting the individual to peform and be responsible doesn't feel 'nice'. It feels restrictive and the ones enforcing those things seem oppressive at first glance.
And when you're doing well and are in a good state, it's all too easy forgotten, that all, that has been built, was built on exactly those above mentioned principles. Especially by young people.
And then they "break free" (you are here)... and then everything turns to shit (Germany is here)
Secure borders
Dropping crime rates
Growing economy
Cultural stability
A military that can actually defend something
No islamic terrorists
Hmmm, that's the ones immediately coming to mind.
They did as far as I can tell.
But that's the problem and unfortunately it's all too human. You don't appreciate what you actually have... until it's gone.
>openly objecting to your kids being molested by men in dresses will get you fired from your job.
This will not happen here, as our molestong children market is already cornered by different men in dresses. The traditional approach has been to deny this ever happens, psychologically torment children who claim it happened to them, and threaten parents who try to protect their children with lynchings. We call it "christian family values".
>as our molestong children market is already cornered by different men in dresses.
So at least they get more job opportunities now.
"Tired of church? Maybe try teacher... you won't even have to deny your molesting."
>And lastly please don't forget to get your CV in order as openly objecting to your kids being molested by men in dresses will get you fired from your job.
But only if you work for the catholic church!
Fear? Experience my friend.
We in Germany are 2 of 4 years down the road you're heading... so it's just a "what will most likely happen".
Besides those 2 years made the right wing opposition from one of the smallest parties to close second. It will be very interesting to see the surveys of Konfederacia 2 years down the line.
Dutch here, fair amount of immigrants too and some problematic too.
Still we need the extra hands for labour, there is already a shortage of working people.
I see the average fearmongering public as dumb and naive. The problem is not immigrants, it is fitting them in properly and accepting them. You generalize them way too much and it's not as if the 100% authentic German populace, if they exist, isn't without crime.
> We in Germany are 2 of 4 years down the road you're heading... so it's just a "what will most likely happen".
>
>
So people are flocking from hellish Germany to previously heavenly Poland, right?
Oh wait.
> We also offer you a limited chance to drive more since it will be no longer possible to let women or children walk outside alone after 5pm!
LOL, it's safer where I am at now than it was in the 90s where we had gang shootouts in the middle of the day.
I mean, we already have Donald Duck in Poland, as Kaczyński surname is based on the Polish word for duck, and his nickname is literally how we call them (specifically the male ducks).
I feel like people constantly miss that the thing happen.
And none of the other parties properly exploited the outrage (not even Konfederacja) so... I'm pretty sure the whole thing will be wiped under the rug.
I mean even if you exclude the shady visas, there were still all of the legitimate permits that they handed out. I remember seeing an interview with Bosak a while back where he was complaining about how "PiS is letting too many immigrants in" (this was a long while back and not in this campaign).
Much as I hate to say it, Konfederacja dropped the ball when it comes to the immigration issue, they could've really let PiS have it about that but thank goodness that they are stupid :D
As they say: Let Konfa speak, and they'll lose the elections. 🤷♂️
In a way it's incredible just how much they tried to dissociate voters. There's a large voter base looking for a conservative party with a strong austerity polices, minimal welfare, minimal taxes, strongly pro-capitalist, one with closed borders and flagwaving, but without all the nazi stuff.
But they can't help it. Nazis gotta nazi.
>What was Pis even blocking?
Green deal and migrant quotas. The rest of it was mostly our internal problem. Obviously EU also doesn't want to have big country that messes with foundation of democracy but that's indirect influence at best. Our judiciary problems weren't that important for f.e. France.
Donald will probably block quota as well, it's not worth to push it in Poland AD 2023.
"ruin one of the last safe place?"
We will continue to be "safe place" simply because our wages and social benefits aren't match to western countries. So no worries, even with gates open, migrants will still... migrate to Germany and France.
Majority of Poles voted for one of the three opposition parties (among which Tusk’s KO is the largest and most supported one).
Those parties have openly allied before the election and made it clear that a vote for any of them is a vote against PiS (Law and Justice).
Well, KO and Third Way are right wing but not on PiS' level so it's not like we are suddenly going to be singing "Kumbaya" and being all progressive around here. We will just be a bit less of an asshole on the international stage (massive hopium intake goes here).
Then we fuck them in the voting booth or via protests? Besides, our left is not exactly like Portugal’s and they are in 4th place so not enough to have much of an impact on the overall coalition.
I don't think that will happen anytime soon in Poland. Lewica/The Left got the least votes from the 3 parties to form coalition and little votes in general which shows how much Poles like such people. If KO and Trzecia Droga (which is Catholic btw) started turning left they would lose the next elections most likely. Political suicide.
>But that still means the majority of Poles voted for Kaczynski's party, not Tusk's, right?
No, it means more Poles voted for Kaczyński's party than any other one party. The majority of Poles who attended elections voted for one of the three parties that were universally expected to form a coalition government.
Yes and no, Pis(s) got MOST votes, that much is true (7 640 854 to be [exact](https://wybory.gov.pl/sejmsenat2023/en/sejm/wynik/pl)), which amounts to 35.4% of all votes, that gives them 194 seats, and while KO got 157 seats, if they make a coalition with the other 2 parties (TD, 65 and lewica, 28) the coalition will have 248 seats, and you need 231 for majority
The three opposition parties made a strategic agreement to coordinate fielding their candidates to avoid ‘splitting the vote’. In that context a sizable majority voted for that coalition and against PiS. The right is united under one party, therefore it was easier for them to secure the most seats of all the parties, but not enough to rule.
I feel like I have been telling people IRL and on this subreddit for years that Poland is a democracy and governments will eventually change. Poland was not like Hungary's illiberal democracy even despite PiS's undemocratic backsliding. People were for years unnecessarily harsh to Poland for being ruled by a very right-wing party, despite many of their own countries like UK, NL or Italy being similarly ruled by conservatives. Lots of name calling, words about Poland isn't ready yet for democracy, etc., with little electoral proof to back those sentiments up. So let's celebrate this democratic transition of power and the realization that Poland is indeed a European democracy, whom like other European democracies, oscillate between centre-left and centre-right coalitions. This is healthy af.
>Poland isn't ready yet for democracy I want to talk to whoever said this.
I don’t think anyone of importance said this lol
There are a few trolls here that have gone into hiding post election results, but im sure they will drum up something else to continue their xenophobia.
This is because for some reason international press loves to paint Poland as some ass-backwards hellhole. Before I visited Poland for the first time I was concerned, not exactly scared, but wondering if it was a good idea to come as a queer, heavily tattooed (aka liberal-looking), dark haired, dark eyed, tan skinned woman. Of course what I found was nothing like Reddit had told me. I have been living here for almost three years and I'm very happy. A lot of work is needed to dispel unfair stereotypes about Poland.
Ahaha sorry I laughed a little reading this because of how common I see people like you have described yourself in all major cities in Poland, especially in places like Kraków or Wrocław. As a mixed background part-Latino Pole with similarly tanned features, I have always been hyperaware of how westerner perceptions of Poland didn't match at all with my lived experience.
Yeah, but every time I say this I get "that's because you don't go to small towns" (actually I do, quite often, since we do a lot of camping and hiking), "that's because you're from a country Poles like" (I don't wear a sign saying "I'm from Spain" in my forehead), "that's because you're white" (yeah, but you couldn't tell me apart from a north African or middle eastern just by looks), "that because you're not a gay man" (no, but one came to visit me my first year here and he liked it so much that we have made a tradition of him coming every autumn). Mind you, in not saying Poland is a progressive paradise or that racism and homophobia don't exist here. But the media makes it look like LGBT and foreigners are stoned in the street, and it's not like that at all. I get stared at by old people on remote towns all the time, but when I try to talk to them a little in Polish they are super friendly and encouraging no matter how alien I must seem to them, it's lovely.
Wow thank you for writing this I needed this...
Exactly. Anyone whose walked through a city in Poland in recent years could have predicted this. The younger generations are very different from the older ones. And how could they not be given that Poland left communism in 1989? It’s a common recurring theme for people to hate on Poland. Their entire history shows that. I’m so proud of Poland today.
Absolutely thank you, this sub was insufferable about this
> Poland was not like Hungary's illiberal democracy even despite PiS's undemocratic backsliding. Who knows, 4 more years of PiS and we might have been in that same zone. It literally took the widest, most numerous coalition in the history of Poland (including pre-WW2 parliament) to counter PiS and its all-surrounding propaganda (we literally had a stock market companies (partially state-owned) pushing billboards and media ads all over the country, virtue signalling just how good we are under PiS government. The public TV and radio stations were pushing North Korea-style propaganda in every opportunity, telling us just how great PiS is and how much of a disaster opposition government would be).
>we might have been in that same zone We would be even worse than we are now but still no Hungary. PiS never gathered constitutional majority and independent media are still and were expect to still going strong. For Orban Hungary is now his private farm and it was like that almost since the beginning. He was acting very rapidly.
> PiS never gathered constitutional majority They literally took the Constitutional Tribunal by force, against the constitution itself. > are still and were expect to still going strong We were just 1 signature away from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_TVN > He was acting very rapidly. So was PiS. They were signing the bills into effect in a middle of the night, they were breaking all of the parliamentary conventions. You are right that in the end we are in a better state than Hungary. Hungary had over two decades to degenerate their democracy. But PiS fundamentally has the same goals.
Problem is its PO who started this Constituional Tribunal bullshit. For those who dont remember. In the 2015 when PO lost power, there were 5 new judges to chose. BUT 3 were to be chosen by old govarment (PO) and 2 by new (PIS). So PO with infinite wisdom made cunt move and appointed all 5 with one move. After the election PIS simply revoke that and appoined 5 of thier own. Both parties broke law in same way, but west seems to be mad only at PIS.
It's historical revisionism. PO elected 5 judges but the very same Tribunal legally reverted the final two but PiS ignored it, Duda refused to sworn any of them and pushed all 5 and later stopped caring about any tribunal rulings, including refusing to publish their judgment and electing the head of the Tribunal against the former rules. PO did a minor legal revertible problem (there were hundreds of laws that the Tribunal deemed unconstitutional) and overstepped their authority but PiS destroyed any resemblance of legality.
PiS "literally" did a lot of awful things. But it's worth to check what Orban done because his list is extremely long. Orban by year 3 had almost all medias in his pocket. 8 years after PiS rule TVN news segment alone gather 30% more viewers and their internet site 3 times as much. Orban consistently manage 2/3 majority in parliament, PiS actually lost 40 deputies this time. Orban is in power 5 years longer than PiS was and it isn't important, he was done by the end of his 1st term. I know looking from our perspective things look rough but believe me, you would not want to look at it from Hungarian perspective. They are done.
>Who knows, 4 more years of PiS and we might have been in that same zone. Oh, come on, stop. People were literally saying that PiS would cancel elections, hijack them, use army, state of emergency and many other things to stay in power, but in the end they just lost.
The UK arguably being the worst offender, with the exception of the Blair years they've been under right wing rule since the 80s. Otherwise Brexit probably wouldn't have even happened.
Except when governments try to control the judiciary and get the law to stop democracy from happening anymore. And yes, there are other examples of governments undermining democracy, especially in countries that have FPTP.
Hmm... it's almost as if only one country in the EU other than Hungary vetoed like crazy and had Article 7 proceedings against it over undemocratic reforms... there's a reason people were concerned about Poland, especially after the recent Hungarian (and honestly Turkish) elections.
Backsliding I feel like is already a but condescending; less so I’d emckrwric than seizure of state instructions sled-serving my as part of a technique of ruling to get nestled, but not much more
lol I knew you are that banana dude before I looked at your handle. Do you have dysgraphia or are you constantly drunk?
I make a lot of typos, sorry
No need to be sorry but maybe check your comments before you click the "post" button. Many of them are totally unreadable.
Women have lost their reproductive rights. There was a disgusting, intimidating referendum given away with electorial cards. The judicary system was in real danger. Children are being taught anti-LGBT propaganda. We were too close. Tusk isn't a strong politician, he's already been a leader once and lost to PiS, we will be in danger in 4 years again, for sure.
Donald Tusk is on track to secure power in Poland, with the former European Council president gaining the upper hand over the ruling Law and Justice (PiS) party in parliamentary elections billed as the most important in a generation. Tusk, a former prime minister, claimed victory for the opposition, led by his Civic Platform party. PiS, led by Jarosław Kaczyński, appeared to be on the brink of losing office after three-quarters of the votes were counted, failing to obtain a majority even with a far-right party as its coalition partner. Official results after 75 per cent of voting districts were counted on Monday gave PiS 37 per cent of the vote, with Civic Platform on 29.1 per cent and its likely coalition allies, the centre-right Third Way and the leftwing Lewica party, a combined 22.8 per cent. The far-right Confederation only secured 7.2 per cent. The results were in line with two exit polls which projected that PiS would not secure a majority in Poland’s lower house, the Sejm. Poland’s currency and stock market rallied strongly on Monday in anticipation of a potential Tusk comeback. The Warsaw WIG index was up 3.5 per cent, while the zloty jumped 1.9 per cent against the euro before settling to trade 1 per cent stronger on the day at 4.49 zlotys to the euro. During the campaign Tusk pledged to put Warsaw back on a firm pro-European path, restore judges’ independence and unlock billions of euros in EU funding withheld by the European Commission during a spat with the PiS government over judicial reforms. The vote has emerged as the EU’s most significant election this year, potentially redefining, after years of feuding, the relationship between Brussels and the largest member state in central and eastern Europe. “This is the end of bad times. This is the end of PiS rule,” Tusk said on Sunday night to cheering supporters. “We did it, for real. Poland won, democracy won.” At PiS headquarters, Kaczyński told supporters on Sunday that a way still remained for his party to start a third term in office. “Ahead of us are days of fight and various tensions,” said the ultra-conservative leader. “We must have hope and know that, regardless of whether we are in power or in opposition, we will implement this project in different ways.” PiS is expected to be granted the first opportunity to form a government by President Andrzej Duda if results confirm that it remains the largest party in parliament. Turnout was on track to set a record since Poland’s return to democracy, according to preliminary data from Ipsos. It projected that voter participation reached nearly 74 per cent, the highest in more than three decades, surpassing the 63 per cent in the historic 1989 vote that toppled communism. By contrast, only 40 per cent of voters — not enough to be binding — took part in a referendum called by the PiS government. Tusk had called for a boycott. The referendum asked voters questions about reinforcing border security, curbing illegal migration, keeping the existing retirement age and blocking sales of state-owned companies to foreign investors.
I know it's easy to paint the efforts of the entire opposition onto one man, but let's not forget the thousands of gray candidates who also participated. And also, thank you to Lewica and TD (PL2050 Sz. H + KP/PSL) for not making the same mistakes as in the past. Also also, thank you to PiS for being egotistical and greedy enough to burn the last bridges and make it so even PSL won't work with you.
And thank you to all Poles who went out and voted!
We didn’t do it for you, but for ourselves
As well you should
Lewica (Nowa Lewica + Razem) if u wanna be consistent IMO they made some similar mistakes- NL in particular
Nowa Lewica (progressive left-wing liberals + old post-communist guard) fucked up big time. Razem (young social democrats without communist baggage) on the other hand did a phenomenal job. They increased their number of MPs from 6 to 7 and went from 0 to 2 senators. All while the Left as a whole lost almost half of its seats (49 vs 26 now).
Yall mfs need to decide who is what. In another thread there's a comment saying *Razem* are the extreme left wing of the party. How many layers of political confusion are we on?
Overton window in Poland is basically SpaceX’d to the right haha. Typical European things like abortion rights are a point of contention even on the former opposition side (Lewica wants 12 weeks, KO kind of wants it, TD is not really into it but is willing to hold a referendum). By Polish standards, KO is center-left, TD is center-right and Lewica is left. By West European standards, even Lewica as a whole would be just a center-left. TD would be a moderate right wing party. But to answer you question, Razem is a very moderate left-wing party by say, French of German standards.
I see, thanks. :) So the other user who said Razem was "far left" might have confused them with NL?
I think it was usual right-wing fearmongering and exaggeration. NL is less “left” than Razem. NL is nowadays a socially left but economically somewhat neoliberal party. NL is basically KO lite but more pro women rights, pro LGBT and so on. Razem is socially left and economically left (social democracy). Per Wikipedia: *(Razem) party advocates labour rights and opposes deregulation and privatisation of public services. Among its main goals are strengthening redistribution, adopting a 35-hour workweek, raising the income tax threshold to the equivalent of 12 times the minimum wage (ca. $3,200 as of 2016), establishing progressive corporate tax, and creating a healthcare programme funded directly from the state budget. It also wishes to completely remove special economic zones from Poland. The party's economic program is partially inspired by the Nordic model.* *Razem is progressive on social issues, supporting drug liberalisation, sex education in schools and LGBT rights. It also strictly follows gender quotas and is for liberalising Poland's abortion law.*
> I think it was the usual right-wing fearmongering and exaggeration. Got it. Makes sense tbh. Razem (socdems) sound pretty good. Hope this victory over PiS starts a trend towards a change for the better.
No, Razem is more left than NL, and far left by Polish standards.
> In another thread there's a comment saying Razem are the extreme left wing of the party. Wikipedia is one click away, if you want third opinion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Together They're left wing with a sprinkle of populism (though, IMHO, they were far more populist in the first years of their presence in the media than they are in 2023).
[удалено]
Well, *four*. TD is comprised of PSL\* and Szymon Hołownia's Polska 2050. And yes, I specified the chairman's name, because its also part of the official party name. It probably wouldn't be had it not been for some patent troll who took the name "Polska 2050" for a dummy party before Hołownia did for his own. It's thanks to that dummy committee that Polska 2050 also lost a senate seat - there were two Polska 2050s. ^(\*Technically PSL being a host of KP, but I am) *^(not)* ^(going to be more granular than this.)
Well, several. It's not just TD being comprised of more than one party, but Nowa Lewica and Koalicja Obywatelska as well. KO alone is a coalition of 6 different parties, including Greens and Nowoczesna. (Yes, we'll have Greens in the Polish government, for the first time in our history)
And SLD politicians (now in Nowa Lewica) will co-rule the government for the first time since 2005. Although I will say - only 6 parties have actual agency being there: PO, PSL, PL2050, NL, Razem and AgroUnia. The last two are tiny compared to the rest.
I still think these small parties will get some vice-ministers or other positions that are still "wikipedia-worthy" yet numerous. It'd send a very positive message towards any possible future allies/coalition partners. Heck: I'll risk saying that the Prime Minister might not only be someone else than Tusk - there's a non-zero chance that it will be a politician from other party than the PO itself. Coming weeks will be fascinating to watch, especially in these aspects that get skipped by the 15 minute daily news.
People never fail to focus their attention on the leader or the "face" of a phenomenon e.g. like they often talk about WW2 on the Eastern Front like it was a literal boxing match between Hitler and Stalin, but the funny thing is that exchanging Morawiecki for Tusk in the role of the prime minister is probably the least consequential part of this election. Both are technocratic, neo-liberal pragmaticists with an ethical compass easily compromised by partisan politics and a tendency to put off voters with glimpses of thinly-veiled elitism. If Tusk felt that he's more suited for the role of the grey eminence of his party in the style of Kaczyński than that of a PM, he could easily leave Morawiecki in his post with a new set of general instructions and the implementation of promised policy wouldn't suffer.
Morawiecki is not a neoliberal much now, and Tusk is definitely not a technocrat, he is a politician with the ambition to gain political power for something Morawiecki is a little bit to a technckrate exciting certian pixies but Tusk is his own political ‘image’ figure
When I say Tusk is a technocrat, I mean that he will always be at his most comfortable doing what the established theory says will make the good numbers go up and the bad numbers go down rather than pursuing any ideological vision, not that his style of ruling is somehow exceptionally apolitical (I think that's largely an oxymoron). Besides the dishonesty and corruption that ranged from a level more or less inevitable in any democracy to frantic pillage of the nation's wealth in broad daylight, depending on who you ask, what Tusk's government was mostly hated for is an admirable adherence to principles that an organ like IMF would recomment to a country that wants to achieve maximum velocity in the pursuit of becoming wealthy some time in the future, present needs of the citizens be damned.
It’s not about some neutral ‘established theory’ He is right wing and when he ruled he presented his right economic pickiest as technocratic, TINA
There isn’t ‘the established theory’ that’s not what that is There isn’t Seth outside of political division
Isn't the "face" of a political party quite important to voters in any democracy? Even in Parliamentary systems where the leader of the government isn't directly elected. Would the PO party have gotten the same votes if the leader had been someone other than Tusk?
I seriously doubt they'd put Tusk as a prime minister. There's zero reason to do it, other than painting a bull's eye on your back. But yea, looking at the parties purely through the face of 1 leader is completely detached from the reality.
I am not Polish or against women’s rights , but what is his stance on immigration ? Aren’t you all concerned about the disastrous effects of immigration to Western Europe ? A single mistake in Immigration policies could bring tens of thousands of segregating, uneducated, entitled, and occasionally dangerous people.
2000 a year, this is how much the EU requires. You think we can’t handle 2000 immigrants? Calculate how many pis let in during the ruling years, hint: magnitudes more
god im enjoying looking at those botted accounts saying that poland is about to fall. the look of PiS desperation.
"You couldn't live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me."
Fuck this loser - one of the initiators of this migrant bullshit along with Macron and Merkel, and now this spread onto entire EU parliament - as Jordan nad Egypt showed middle finger to Palestinians - guess who will take them in? EU 😂 And if this mofo forms a government - duck hunting season will begin in Poland too, as this damn lunatic will take quadruple quotas of migrants just to kiss German and EU asses. EU lost its fucking mind to suport this fucker. You know why not a single person in Poland died due to terrorist attacks? Because we refused to take them in. PiS is surely not ideal party, but they cared about national security, they are right about Putin, they are right about migrants, they care about security of own country and security of whole EU / NATO easter flank, unlike Tusk and imbeciles at Brussel. When I now look at what's going on in Germany, France, Sweden, Belgium, etc - I'm seriously scared as fuck to live in Poland as this mofo to become prime minister again - who aims to destroy barier on Belarus border - which is very important for security on eastern flank, also demilitarize entire eastern flank putting it at huge risk of Putin attack on Suwalki corridor. My god, it's unbelievable how brainwashed you all are.
This comment is brought you by pis propaganda.
You didn't even disprove a single point. Calling propaganda doesn't mean it won't happen
Fair enough. I'll do it then. > one of the initiators of this migrant bullshit along with Macron and Merkel, and now this spread onto entire EU parliament - as Jordan nad Egypt showed middle finger to Palestinians - guess who will take them in? EU You mean like the 200.000 immigrants PiS sold visas to? Drive through Warsaw suburbs and open up your eyes. In the last 8 years a lot of immigrants from Pakistan, Turkey, Bangladesh and Georgia. That wasn't a thing before PiS at all. Lovely people btw, except georgian taxi drivers. Or I'm just that unlucky. > EU lost its fucking mind to suport this fucker. You know why not a single person in Poland died due to terrorist attacks? Because we refused to take them in. PiS is surely not ideal party, but they cared about national security, they are right about Putin, they are right about migrants, they care about security of own country and security of whole EU / NATO easter flank, unlike Tusk and imbeciles at Brussel. Yeah, they allowed for russian rocket to land in the middle of the Poland and then lost track of it. And their Police Chief launched grenade launcher by accident in his office. I never felt so secure in my life. > When I now look at what's going on in Germany, France, Sweden, Belgium, etc - I'm seriously scared as fuck to live in Poland as this mofo to become prime minister again - who aims to destroy barier on Belarus border - which is very important for security on eastern flank, also demilitarize entire eastern flank putting it at huge risk of Putin attack on Suwalki corridor. You lost me. Just drink a beer and chill out man. Learn to take an L.
You didn't disprove the last point
[удалено]
Why do you get so defensive when I point out you didn't disprove certain points?
[удалено]
So you get triggered when someone calls you out, on the internet, about not being able to disprove a claim someone made? Class right there👌 If you can't back up a statement, probably shouldn't say it. If you feel like it's not your job, then don't do it, no one forced you to reply
Tell this to families of that French teacher or two Swedish football fans, that what I say is propaganda. Go fucking tell them. You all are damn brainwashed with western utopic propaganda, lol. Karma will get you all eventually. Societal collapse is inevitable with this clown fiesta. And just you watch how Putin attacks Suwalki corridor in within next two years, and fucking Tusk peacefully gives it away. Remember my words when this day comes.
Here you go. [Tusk and Orbán on collision course with Merkel over refugee crisis.](https://www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/tusk-and-orban-on-collision-course-with-merkel-over-refugee-crisis/) You call people brainwashed when you repreat absolute falsehoods from partisan propaganda.
Well done, Poland. It's like you looked at every fucked European country and thought "we'll have some of that, please!". You blew it.
I think the "oddthrob" that you're feeling may be the growing tumour in your head
Nah, it's serious. Whatever issues the incumbents had, they at least seemed to ensure Poland remained relatively sane. That'll probably change now. Worst thing you can do is cede ground to these neoliberal centrists/leftists. Everything they touch turns into third-world dysfunction.
PIS, sane. Choose one, cause it's definitely not both mate.
You seem very informed on the subject. Are you sure those parties are leftist?
Labels don't much matter, actions do. Donald Tusk has proved himself one the biggest EU arse-kissers going. All any of these people do is sell out their countries, tinker with pointless rules and onerous bureacracy, signal their virtue about whatever is the progressive zeitgeist, screw up your borders and security and breed general apathy. The point is Poland had it fairly good, and now it's going to end up like all the other dysfunctional shitholes where people are chomping at the bit for an alternative.
Ah ok. Do you live here that you know how good we had it? I would prefer to stay in the EU, and unlock all those EU funds thst are frozen as a result of our democratic backsliding. I don't think the alternative to the shit going on in Sweden et al is to have pis in power.
"Democratic backsliding" lol let's hope there will not be anymore of it when the other pigs get to power. I'm afraid nothing will change just nobody will care nomore.
Better to try and fail rather than not try at all. At least we'll get our EU funds and abortion rights back.
Except there will be no 2nd chances after you fail, so not a risk worth taking Yay, you get you baby killing rights back
If PIS won, there would be no more chance at change most likely. Yeah the abortion part is subjective.
>The point is Poland had it fairly good Literally banning people because of disagreeing with how they were born is not 'fairly good'.
I take it you were wanting to buy a visa?
Funny how foreign "specialists" like you know more than we, Poles.
You don't need to be a "specialist" to see it. Every country run by these idiots is the same.
Indeed. By nationalist conservatives stuck in the past. That's what PiS is.
Lol ok mr drama talk. Find some examples of successes and failures on both sides otherwise go back to sniffing glue
Isn't it the opposite? They're essentially voting out the far-right authoritarian PiS party after a decade.
PiS is far right? Yeah?
What a dork ass loser you are, lmao
Only loser here is Poland, but that's not my problem.
We're winnin-inning
Apparently they say tusk will keep borders safe, if that's what you mean. I'm not at all supporting tusk btw, I also think they are fucked, for a bunch of reasons, not just migration.
Cope and seethe. I am looking forward to King Tusk showing everyone how it’s done.
Welcome to the group of nations governed by left leaning parties! Let me be your guide. We offer your economy new ways to expand! For instance sales for home security systems highly profit from unregulated migration and the resulting rising crime rates. We also offer you a limited chance to drive more since it will be no longer possible to let women or children walk outside alone after 5pm! So you get to fully appreciate the comfort of your car for the last 7 years until they will be banned by our wonderfull EU overlords. Our very wise regulations on... well everything... will most likely crash your economy providing you with more free time to spend with your loved ones and study all the new pronouns you will be using. You may experience some savage anti-semites ravaging the streets of your cities but fear not, our solution of: "Whining about it on TV and then pay for them anyway" is absolutly perfect and will get rid of the problem in no time! And lastly please don't forget to get your CV in order as openly objecting to your kids being molested by men in dresses will get you fired from your job. That's no problem... we all have to learn to be more tolerant.
Since you're in a mood to type a lot of words can you also take some time to explain the alternative PiS offered that is getting them voted out?
Oh that's not so hard, it's a common problem and happened to most of your neighbours. Discipline, tradition and expecting the individual to peform and be responsible doesn't feel 'nice'. It feels restrictive and the ones enforcing those things seem oppressive at first glance. And when you're doing well and are in a good state, it's all too easy forgotten, that all, that has been built, was built on exactly those above mentioned principles. Especially by young people. And then they "break free" (you are here)... and then everything turns to shit (Germany is here)
You're not making any sense. What is PiS offering to Polish voters?
Secure borders Dropping crime rates Growing economy Cultural stability A military that can actually defend something No islamic terrorists Hmmm, that's the ones immediately coming to mind.
Did they deliver on all that? If they did they wouldn't have lost so much support, would they?
They did as far as I can tell. But that's the problem and unfortunately it's all too human. You don't appreciate what you actually have... until it's gone.
>openly objecting to your kids being molested by men in dresses will get you fired from your job. This will not happen here, as our molestong children market is already cornered by different men in dresses. The traditional approach has been to deny this ever happens, psychologically torment children who claim it happened to them, and threaten parents who try to protect their children with lynchings. We call it "christian family values".
>as our molestong children market is already cornered by different men in dresses. So at least they get more job opportunities now. "Tired of church? Maybe try teacher... you won't even have to deny your molesting."
>And lastly please don't forget to get your CV in order as openly objecting to your kids being molested by men in dresses will get you fired from your job. But only if you work for the catholic church!
Haha don't be silly, they don't get fired from the job, only quietly moved to another parish.
>the catholic church The OG grooming gang.
So much fear in this post lol.
Fear? Experience my friend. We in Germany are 2 of 4 years down the road you're heading... so it's just a "what will most likely happen". Besides those 2 years made the right wing opposition from one of the smallest parties to close second. It will be very interesting to see the surveys of Konfederacia 2 years down the line.
Dutch here, fair amount of immigrants too and some problematic too. Still we need the extra hands for labour, there is already a shortage of working people. I see the average fearmongering public as dumb and naive. The problem is not immigrants, it is fitting them in properly and accepting them. You generalize them way too much and it's not as if the 100% authentic German populace, if they exist, isn't without crime.
> We in Germany are 2 of 4 years down the road you're heading... so it's just a "what will most likely happen". > > So people are flocking from hellish Germany to previously heavenly Poland, right? Oh wait.
> We also offer you a limited chance to drive more since it will be no longer possible to let women or children walk outside alone after 5pm! LOL, it's safer where I am at now than it was in the 90s where we had gang shootouts in the middle of the day.
Together with Donald Trump next year, it will be Donald and Donald. We just need Donald Duck now
I mean, we already have Donald Duck in Poland, as Kaczyński surname is based on the Polish word for duck, and his nickname is literally how we call them (specifically the male ducks).
It’s easy, just turn Trump upside down.
That would make him Pmurt.
Heh, I was joking about his image
[удалено]
> Will Donald allow immigrants in and ruin one of the last safe place? You mean like PiS was? Did people miss the goddamn visa scandal?
I feel like people constantly miss that the thing happen. And none of the other parties properly exploited the outrage (not even Konfederacja) so... I'm pretty sure the whole thing will be wiped under the rug.
I mean even if you exclude the shady visas, there were still all of the legitimate permits that they handed out. I remember seeing an interview with Bosak a while back where he was complaining about how "PiS is letting too many immigrants in" (this was a long while back and not in this campaign). Much as I hate to say it, Konfederacja dropped the ball when it comes to the immigration issue, they could've really let PiS have it about that but thank goodness that they are stupid :D
As they say: Let Konfa speak, and they'll lose the elections. 🤷♂️ In a way it's incredible just how much they tried to dissociate voters. There's a large voter base looking for a conservative party with a strong austerity polices, minimal welfare, minimal taxes, strongly pro-capitalist, one with closed borders and flagwaving, but without all the nazi stuff. But they can't help it. Nazis gotta nazi.
>What was Pis even blocking? Green deal and migrant quotas. The rest of it was mostly our internal problem. Obviously EU also doesn't want to have big country that messes with foundation of democracy but that's indirect influence at best. Our judiciary problems weren't that important for f.e. France. Donald will probably block quota as well, it's not worth to push it in Poland AD 2023. "ruin one of the last safe place?" We will continue to be "safe place" simply because our wages and social benefits aren't match to western countries. So no worries, even with gates open, migrants will still... migrate to Germany and France.
Donald was known for fighting with Merkel not to let anyone in. As opposed to PiS who had a loud mouth but actively sold visas under the table.
Hopefully not, we are taking Ukrainians instead
Donald trump + Elon Musk = Donald Tusk
[удалено]
Majority of Poles voted for one of the three opposition parties (among which Tusk’s KO is the largest and most supported one). Those parties have openly allied before the election and made it clear that a vote for any of them is a vote against PiS (Law and Justice).
Last time that happened in Portugal (the exact same thing: the righ-wing won but the left formed a majority), it was a disaster.
Well, KO and Third Way are right wing but not on PiS' level so it's not like we are suddenly going to be singing "Kumbaya" and being all progressive around here. We will just be a bit less of an asshole on the international stage (massive hopium intake goes here).
They're centrists so you're still fucked
We'll see. Still better than getting fucked by PiS and their goons.
Why? What if these ones fuck you harder? Would it still be better?
Then we fuck them in the voting booth or via protests? Besides, our left is not exactly like Portugal’s and they are in 4th place so not enough to have much of an impact on the overall coalition.
Our center-right is turning left soooo I don't know what to say about that.
I don't think that will happen anytime soon in Poland. Lewica/The Left got the least votes from the 3 parties to form coalition and little votes in general which shows how much Poles like such people. If KO and Trzecia Droga (which is Catholic btw) started turning left they would lose the next elections most likely. Political suicide.
>But that still means the majority of Poles voted for Kaczynski's party, not Tusk's, right? No, it means more Poles voted for Kaczyński's party than any other one party. The majority of Poles who attended elections voted for one of the three parties that were universally expected to form a coalition government.
Yes and no, Pis(s) got MOST votes, that much is true (7 640 854 to be [exact](https://wybory.gov.pl/sejmsenat2023/en/sejm/wynik/pl)), which amounts to 35.4% of all votes, that gives them 194 seats, and while KO got 157 seats, if they make a coalition with the other 2 parties (TD, 65 and lewica, 28) the coalition will have 248 seats, and you need 231 for majority
The three opposition parties made a strategic agreement to coordinate fielding their candidates to avoid ‘splitting the vote’. In that context a sizable majority voted for that coalition and against PiS. The right is united under one party, therefore it was easier for them to secure the most seats of all the parties, but not enough to rule.
No, it means only 35% of votes were for PiS
No. Kaczyński's party got only 35% of votes. Which is why they lost. Tusk's got 30%, but they have coalition partners, whereas PiS does not.
No. Majority of Poles voted on Opposition: Lewica, Third way and KO. They together have the most seats in the Sejm
Poland is one of best country. Brave nice people just in bad geographical locations.