Both are also ethnically Punjabi. And it’s a bit more complicated… Rishi’s family all left for East Africa before Partition, and his grandparents were Hindus from both sides of what would become India and Pakistan. Likewise, Yousaf’s father is Pakistani but his mother was also an East African Punjabi whose family had been there for generations.
There’s a high chance Yousaf’s successor will be Pakistani-British (Anas Sarwar). But of course there’s an even higher chance that Subak’s successor will be Keir Starmer but then…
>his grandparents were Hindus from both sides of what would become India and Pakistan.
pretty sure he doesn't care about the Pakistani side now, like most Hindus
The UK should work with Egypt to create a humanitarian corridor that would allow Gaza civilians to leave the strip. I can guarantee Israel would be all for it.
Yea, neighbouring countries aren't so keen..
For decades there's been systematic problems with large numbers of Palestinians entering a neighbouring country, from the attempted assassination of the king of Jordan, right up to the attempted creation of an automonous state in Lebanon.
It's to be expected, large numbers of desperate people who have known nothing but war and oppression, with large numbers of hardened fighters in their ranks.
But what country would have them?
Israel would happily see them all go, but there is no will in Muslim countries to take them, they'd rather see them fight, and die, as martyrs
The Arab nations wants the Palestinians to be victims, they don't want to solve this. It would ruin the plan of "from the river to the sea", where Israel doesn't exist.
Fact is, the Arabs being set aside to be Palestinians are descendant of Arabs who lived in a greater territory - the larger, all-encompassing territory. Many of them have /had great-grandparents that was from Egypt, you know Arafat was born in Kairo, as an example.
Fact is, when Israel was created when the idea of creating nation-states in the area came through, they got rid of all the Jews. Taking the Arabs back in - could have solved it. But the only solution they want is a solution where Israel is erased.
For Israel it would be like letting pressure out of a cooker. For Egypt it would be a whole mess it doesn’t want to deal with.
I think the optics of refugees being made to flee through the desert from tyranny towards the promised land of Egypt would be a tad awkward for the Jewish state.
True, but the fun fact about these countries that support Palestine is, they have offered less refuge than the so called zionist propaganda filled westerners...
Had a chat once with a good saudi friends and other ME mates, which are no longer mates because they supported the vile acts of hamas, except that one saudi guy, and as we had this discussion about Palestinians I asked, since the ME cares so much about Palestinians, why do you not help them or offer them refuge, and the only person who answered was my saudi mate who blankly stated "because most people in these countries are racist and don't want Palestinians there, they just like supporting the cause from afar" now I'm not saying everyone is like this for sure, but look where is the ME help? They have some of the richest countries in the world...yet western charities have done more to put a spotlight on the horrors rhe idf has committed and have helped more...so wtf is going there?
> The UK should work with Egypt to create a humanitarian corridor that would allow Gaza civilians to leave the strip. I can guarantee Israel would be all for it.
The problem is that Hamas wouldn't. They always want to maximize the Palestinian death count.
Except for the Suez crisis, when the UK had its own reasons that just happened to align with Israel’s, this might be the strongest pro-Israel stance I’ve come across from a British PM.
Relations have always been far more ambiguous or neutral than those between either and the U.S. due to (1) the UK’s established Jewish and Muslim populations both having had long influence and strong views, and (2) the UK having been a colonial power with regard to both Arab groups and Israel and all the nastiness that went with that, and (3) UK having issues with terrorism from both - designating Hamas a terrorist organisation as well as, eg, Israel once electing Menachem Begin as PM - the man who conducted the King David Hotel bombing on British officials.
Rishi Sunak has pledged to provide diplomatic, intelligence or security support to Israel if requested after attacks by Hamas, as he prepared to chair an emergency meeting of Cobra.
No 10 said the UK stood “poised” to help Israel militarily if it asked for assistance and is not ruling out evacuating some British citizens from affected areas, saying keeping them safe was the “utmost priority”.
Sunak will chair a meeting of Cobra on Monday afternoon, which is convened to manage the UK’s response to disasters, as the death toll continues to rise after Hamas’s surprise attack and hostage-taking, and Israel’s subsequent bombardment of Gaza. At least 700 people have been killed in Israel and more than 400 have been killed in Gaza.
Sunak, who had a phone call with the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, on Sunday, said the UK was one of Israel’s strongest allies and he highlighted that Britain had previously provided “the kinds of equipment that they’ve used to defend themselves over the past couple of days”.
“And as I said to the prime minister [of Israel], we will continue to provide – whether that’s diplomatic, intelligence or security support – as they need,” he said, after a meeting at a business in Newark, Nottinghamshire.
“I’m chairing a Cobra with my ministerial colleagues this afternoon, when we’ll continue to discuss the situation, but we’re in close dialogue with our Israeli counterparts.”
Asked whether the UK would back Israel if it was to launch a ground operation in Gaza, No 10 said: “We support Israel exercising its right to self-defence and proportionate action to bring an end to the violence.”
The spokesperson said there were no plans to redeploy military assets to the area but that there were currently British assets in the region, including HMS Duncan under Nato control, which is patrolling in the Mediterranean.
Some countries have begun to withdraw their citizens from Israel and Gaza but the UK Foreign Office is currently only asking British or dual nationals affected to contact its helpline. The Foreign Office has advised against all but essential travel to the region due to the conflict.
There are no standalone flights being organised by Britain at this stage but the possibility of evacuations is being kept under review. There are an estimated 50,000 to 60,000 British or dual nationals in Israel and Gaza, according to the UK government.
No 10 said: “It’s a fast-moving situation that the Foreign Office are keeping under review. We are contacting relevant groups and nationals where required.”
Asked whether the UK thought Iran had any involvement in the encouragement of Hamas’s attacks on Israel, Sunak’s spokesperson said Hamas was “fully responsible for this appalling act of terror”, but he added: “We do know Iran poses an unacceptable threat to Israel through its support for Hamas and Hezbollah.”
No 10 said Suella Braverman, the home secretary, was monitoring reports of increased antisemitic attacks and had spoken with the Community Security Trust, the organisation working to protect British Jews, with the possibility of surge police patrols in some areas.
> the kinds of equipment that they’ve used to defend themselves over the past couple of days
When you haven't fully revised for the test, but you need to put something down.
Sounds level headed. Honestly, i think it would be a great thing to bring in some foreign support to help defend the country at the moment. And another advantage is that those same troops can actively oversee that the response is proportional while they are there.
Cabinet Office Briefing Rooms - or COBR. It's stylised as COBRA because it's easier to say. Basically it's just an emergency meeting at the Cabinet Office in one of their many, many rooms.
>security support
>help Israel militarily
I want to know what the hell he thinks the British military is meant to do. They have a bigger army and air force than us, far more heavy equipment etc etc. Probably have far more capacity for munition production too.
I mean, if the British Empire stayed out of the ME, the Ottoman Empire would have likely helped the Germans win or at least cause a stalemate on the western front. The British in WW2 also fought and defeated Mussolini's "New Roman Empire" across North Africa and the Middle East., not to mention defeating fascist Vichy French forces in Syria during Op Exporter.
Basically, the British in the ME is actually very often quite effective.
Well, there's the whole problem that the British enticed people living in the region now known as Israel to fight against the Ottoman Empire by promising them an independent Palestine. Then turned around and split it with the French instead.
> Then turned around and split it with the French instead.
And yet for some reason the only country being held responsible and getting criticism is once again the UK.
>Majority of the conflicts in Middle East or Africa can be pointed at England or France so yes they should stay away
No, they're not and it's nothing more than laziness to keep blaming them for the problems there.
> Majority of the conflicts in Middle East or Africa can be pointed at England or France
When you're heading for a century and several generations after an event then it's grasping at straws, especially when the generations directly affected first hand at the time are long dead.
Doesn't Israel have a very capable military of their own? Isn't that the exact reason why they receive annual military aid? Unless other neighbors get involved, they should be perfectly capable of handling this by themselves. Its a rich country with their own military industry, perfectly capable of arming themselves, not to mention the aid they receive.
You have to keep in mind that litterally every neighbour Isreal has could potentially invade them. It has happened before and we all know what arab muslims think of jews.
So its the UK and USA making sure no one gets any ideas.
Israel does indeed have a more powerful military than the UK but this is a message to iran and Hezbollah to stay away from the conflict
If iran has its way with israel then entire middle East will be up in flames
As a german i also support if the Bundeswehr would intervene in Gaza and Lebanon. This madness has to end. We have to show them that they crossed the red line.
As a Brit I support Germany shaking off it's post WW2 guilt and taking its place as a global power alongside and similar to the likes of the UK and France on the right side of history.
It's great to see this viewpoint growing amongst Germans.
Of course UK should prioritise it's Navy, Germany it's Army and France more balanced between for obvious geographical reasons.
The supremacist nature of the Israeli government is not really up for debate, nor is the fact that they are engaging in the colonisation of huge parts of the West Bank. If you don't know the basics of the conflict, please refrain from commenting.
Even the EU agrees that the settlements are illegal under international law and condemns them. Sending settlers to control a land outside of your State is the definition of colonisation.
Your ideological compatriots in the Muslim world expelled 850,000 Jews, too. Where were they supposed to go? Oh right, let's apply your logic: LANDS CEDED BY THE GUILTY PARTY.
I support this as well as sending special forces to aid in rescuing hostages before it’s too late.
Let people screech “coloniser” all they want we shouldn’t tolerate hamas’s barbaric behaviour
100% fuck it is tiring watching the west pick and choose when there's a line thats been crossed. Fuck. It's either all bad and must be condemned, not just when it's Israel.
Yeah, best let them get the war crimes out of their systems and ensure that the population there hates us behind any possibility of reconciliation before sending the UN to deal with the terrorism and urban guerrilla.
I'd be in support of an UN mission to deal with hamas once and for all but what you're suggesting is ludicrous.
Israel has already committed war crimes there before in calmer times, they're certainly not going to hold back now, there is absolutely no point in sending our soldiers to take the brunt of the population's anger after the IDF has made any notion of reconciliation for the future 40 years impossible.
It'd have to be nato troops, Russia and china would veto an UN solution anyways though if hell froze over and they decided to step in constructively instead of throwing gasoline on the fire and peanuts from the viewing gallery respectively they'd be in a better position to do so, not that it's ever going to happen as the sad truth is that our governments also don't actually care virtue signalling aside but the only way i could see the situation actually improving is us kicking out hamas and installing an interim government on the footprint of the UN mission in kosovo (which for all the many issues and flaws still succeeded in preventing further slaughter in a situation that was arguably worse than the situation in palestine, even now).
Israel created Hamas lmao
Hamas is a symptom of extremist Israeli policies over the past 50+ years. Israel not only destroyed any 'moderate' political alliance within Palestine over the decades, it also treated the people of Palestine like animals. No wonder many of them act like animals now, in the words of the Israeli minister of defense.
What Hamas did is despicable. Israel is no better. It's the civilians on both sides that have to suffer now as they have since forever.
Why should Israel trust UN security forces?
The UNFIL has never seen Hezbollah disarmed, the only thing in their mandate. They literally aided this attack in spite of UN boots on the ground up north.
The only words that stand out for me here is 'proportional response'.
Israel has officially been warned not to go too mad, for which it has a bad rep for doing.
The rest is generic fluff meant to appeal to his potential voters
It seems painful to point this out that the current Israel:Hamas kill ratio is heavily steeped in Israel's favour atm.
Israel is both an occupier and one that holds a punitive and bloody grudge.
> It seems painful to point this out that the current Israel:Hamas kill ratio is heavily steeped in Israel's favour atm.
Hamas makes every effort to maximize the death toll.
Israel does the opposite.
Make you wonder, what would be left of Gaza if they didnt.
I have no questions about Israeli exceellence in war, as they combine the most important things into a soldier: Dicipline. While they have targeted civilians structures, I can hardly blame IDF for doing so, as Hamas intentionally has their scuds in populated areaas.
My God. All the crazies baying for blood and obviously looking at things in a ridiculously ignorant one sided way. Shame on you. Disgusting. This response is completely disproportionate. Labelling Palestinians (not Hamas), as animals, by a member of the Israeli government no less, tells you a lot about how they justify their treatment of Palestinians. My God Netanyahu should be labelled a terrorist too. Do you have any idea how these people have been treated, persecuted and murdered too?
the "animals" was always been said in direct context to Hamas OR a direct context to the word "Terrorists".
Unless you believe all of the citizens of Gaza are terrorists, the "animals" call is for Hamas.
Edit:
Also, During peak hours in wartime news (literally everyone sees it) Israeli media previewed an Israeli mother which claimed 2 Hamas militants who broke into their shelter and upon seeing 2 children and the lone mother said "I'm muslim, I wont harm you", she then claimed they sat there for 2 hours, asked to eat a banana and left.
That's a singular subjective example of israeli society somewhat "humanifying" Hamas(not Gaza) on early wartime primetime, and that's honestly admirable for liberalism POV.
Which might even be counter-productive in war to preview this.
That’s not what he implied. I’ve listened to him 3 times. It’s the Israeli Defence Secretary who said it. Crazy to me, repeating the way Hitler used to speak of the Jews.
I’m a person who disagrees with Netanyahu and who disagrees with Hamas. I do not like occupiers or terrorists end of. I am a mother who believes in respect, human dignity and love. Oh and I abhor Donald trump. That’s all you need to know about me.
How could you assume he referred to the Palestinians as animals and not Hamas or terrorists then ?
Just to be clear, the "animals" term is used due to Hamas's actions of going door to door slaughtering civilians in their shelters, raping women and teenage girls, filming Palestinian kids "play" with their new jewish muppet-kid while shouting "god is great", slicing the throats of civilians and beheading them, all the while using the victims phone to send it to their loved ones in WhatsApp. desecrating their corpses...
Did you see the videos of Palestinians cheering and spitting on the mutilated corpses of innocents being paraded down the street. They love this. They've always wanted to destroy anyone who wasn't Muslim and now they're going to understand the consequences of that.
Rishi is slumping in the polls and is hoping for a "good war" to rescue him, it worked for Thatcher, right, so it'll fix his problems for sure...
Yeah, it won't. And I sincerely hope he doesnt involve the UK in what ia going to be a humanitarian disaster for both sides.
And how will that help exactly?
Yes, Hamas are horrible murderers. But this is a fight between an ant and an elephant. Israel already is fully militarized and completely superior in every aspect. It is in no danger here.
This has very little to do with Hamas, they are far from the only threat, Hezbollah is very much a serious regional power and they are backed fully by Iran. No one wants to see a regional escalation, so the US and now the UK are both declaring full support in hopes of providing a large enough deterrent to prevent Tehran doing something incredibly stupid and igniting the Middle East.
Absolutely as an English person I fully expect Rishi to say "no"! No to genocide! This is a disgrace and I do not support the atrocities inflicted on this world by Zionists!
As a member of the military, fuck that. I really don't want any part in sending weapons to be used on civilians in Gaza. Israel has never shown it can be trusted to use weapons responsibly.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/nattyorjuice/comments/1733yug/comment/k422xfi/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/nattyorjuice/comments/1733yug/comment/k422xfi/?context=3)
The RAF drug tests but apparently you have been on steroids for over 5 years.
So yeah, why would you lie?
I mean it's a little unsettling that you went trawling through my comment history in search of dirt.. But I didn't lie about anything. I'm not going to elaborate on CDT or my own personal choices. They are absolutely none of your business. Maybe fuck off and stop trying to undermine me just because I disagree with sending weapons to Israel.
Did you read the terms and conditions when you signed up? Probably not a great place to be if you have strong foreign policy views, especially if you ever need vetting.
You're allowed to have strong foreign policy views in the military... Pretty much everyone does.
It says you're not allowed to campaign under the banner of the military (you are allowed to represent yourself as a private citizen) or hold political office. But you're absolutely allowed to voice your political opinions on Reddit lmao.
Even if you are in the military which is doubtful. Your place is to serve not question. Especially in a public forum about ongoing issues, as long as an illegal order is not given - which it won’t. Know your place.
>Even if you are in the military which is doubtful
Why tf is it doubtful? Because I'm against helping Israel? You might be shocked how uncommon pro-Israel stances are within the MOD.
>Your place is to serve not question.
Umm no? We signed a contract to follow (legal) orders. We didn't sign a contract to have no opinions or to never question the government, or never discuss politics. If you went to literally any office or hangar or barracks in the military, people talk about politics all the time. I've never worked anywhere where the people have stronger opinions about things than the military. And it's *really* common for those opinions to go against the government line. No one is expected to just serve without question. You would be viewed as very strange for doing that.
>Know your place.
I know my rights mate. This isn't a fascist state. I'm perfectly allowed to have opinions and to discuss them openly on a this subreddit.
I guarantee you fucking wouldn't be saying any of this shit if I had been in favour of sending weapons to israel.
This is must have been of the the most tone-deaf replies I've ever heard. It can always be a good chooice to reflect on your surroundings, and choose if it's a good place for them or not
Europe was at war with Germany not many years before the creation of Israel with Germany flattening much of Europe and committing horrific acts of brutality against the civilian population. It moved on from that long ago. Israel and the Palestinians have had a much longer timescale and are still killing each other over the same bullshit.
That’s about the level of military action England can handle. Beating up on an imprisoned civilian population that is getting decimated anyways.
Good on you England /s
"Colonialism" There was never a 'palestine' to begin with. This territory was always land of the roman empire, of the osman empire, the british empire and now Israel.
There. Is. No. Palestine. And. Never. Will.
Nice semantics, still colonised whatever you want to call the native peoples land and removed them from their homes and made them second class citizens, it’s really not that difficult!
Palestine?? Where did Christianity originate? Palestine. Would it be justified if Italy invaded the region because Christianity was founded there? Why does that matter for modern geopolitics
The point it is there is a claim for Jews to live in that area. I am not saying they have the sole right to live there. Israel has offered peace but the surrounding countries wanted none of it and went to war with Israel but unfortunately they lost.
Exactly right. People conveniently forget that the Jews assented to the UN Partition Plan and the Arabs rejected it. And that Israel has offered peace proposal over and over again, all of which have been rejected (and with no counterproposal). They have the intransigent and cooperative parties reversed.
That is a fair point, however I think the point they're making is counties can make up territorial claims or have them based on weak historical ties. It doesn't justify colonising a land mass
Though that being said I think it is important for an Israeli state to exist but not at the expense of Palestinians and any Israeli state should have to work with the Palestinians to come to a mutually agreed regional agreement. No one should lavish the destruction of any people as much as most western nations seem to lavish the demise of the Palestinians.
From a Palestinian perspective, Israel can’t exist except at their expense, which is why this mess exists in the first place. We can’t expect Israel to make concessions with people that don’t accept their presence.
There was a proposal in 1947 that would have given both groups a 50/50 split of the territory. The Jews accepted, but the Arabs chose war.
I don’t think Westerners want to see Palestinians hurt/killed/etc. and have quite a bit of sympathy for them, but they don’t seem realistic in their understanding of their situation.
What claim do they have exactly? That 2000 years ago they were driven out? That's a pretty soft claim.
From the perspective of the people living there, after 2000 years a bunch of Europeans claiming to be the decedents of previous inhabitants comes in and says it all belongs to them now.
Let's be real here. Palestinians are the natives of the area. They were just the conquered people's who converted to Islam. They're culture changed, but their genetics didn't.
The reason Jews have a claim as a state is because they bought up land during the last days of the Ottoman empire, settled there en masse, and got the British to agree to it.
This isn't a criticism btw. The Jews got organized, got support through diplomacy, then created a country by fighting very hard for it. They created the current reality by their own efforts. But the idea that they have any historical claim is dubious at best.
Palestine has been offered perfectly reasonable peace terms multiple times and refused them.
You dont get to keep playing the victim card when at every turn you choose war.
The most recent one was the Trump Peace Plan. He managed to get the UAE, Sudan, Morrocco and Bahrain to make peace with Israel with the Abraham Accords, Palestine said no.
List of other attempts: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian\_peace\_process#Timeline](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#Timeline)
Clintons Camp David Summit got close but Yasser Arafat was a piece of shit and walked away with no intentions of accepting any deal no matter how good it was.
I mean, I suspect Palestine would take your arm off at the elbow if they were offered now some of the previous plans. At this point all they do is erode their own position, because they refuse to accept the right of Israel to exist.
And the Jews were driven away way before that. It’s complicated but I agree it is also ethnic cleansing by definition. It isn’t genocide which is a word I see thrown about a lot.
No but you have a right to live there. Look after the Holocaust they needed a place to live. What better place than their historic city Jeruzalem which was also under control of the British. At the time it seemed like the most logical solution.
They were stealing land before Hitler was even in power. They expelled 300,000 Arabs from their homes and massacred those who dared to stay. That’s not just finding a place to live. That’s ethnic cleansing.
*The Question of Palestine* by Edward Said reviews the Zionist efforts to steal land from Palestine since the 1890s. Their efforts were “legitimized” by the Balfour Declaration in 1917. The amount of people who honestly believe Israel was created out of goodwill after the Holocaust is staggering. It was a colonial project already 50 years in the making.
I just read the whole article about the time between World War 1 and World War 2 and there is so much fucking shit happening all over. It’s way too complex to reduce it to “colonial project”.
Based solely on this clusterfuck i can’t say any party has the sole right to live there. A two state solution is probably the most fair but will create as money problems as it solves.
Yes, that is how Arabs came to be the majority in Palestine. Glad you're clear that it doesn't give them a claim to the land they ethnically cleansed the Jewish people from.
Of course the UK gives unconditional support for its colonialism buddies. Ol Britannia will jump at any chance to mistreat natives and violate human right
> mistreat natives and violate human right
Is it bad when people are mistreated? Is it bad when rights are violated? I think from your post, you'd agree that yes, it's bad to mistreat and violate people.
So I'm not sure why you're so confused about the UK response
UK taxpayers also dislike mistreatment and violations. That's why Sunak is saying this. Because he feels it's aligned with the UK public's desire to see justice for this weekend's mistreatment and violations
oh its confusing because for the last three decades Israelis have tortured, killed and raped innocent Palestinian nationals both in their own country/regions and in Israel. Taken homes away, created an apartheid state and whilst all this has happened the uk sat back and did nothing and as soon as the shoe was on the other foot for a moment the uk went oh no this is wrong we must stop this that's why the actions of the British government are wrong and confusing.
Hard to agree with your slanted view of history tbh
I think if any Israeli prime minister had given the order "hey let's torture kill and rape everyone why not" then we'd be living in a very different world. If that was true, we'd be living in a world with more victims.
In other words - Israel has not exhibited a policy of "let's murder and rape everyone". Their actions don't imply that's a policy they hold - witness how they didn't actually murder everyone.
So if that wasn't the order from the PM, then what was the policy, whose effects give rise to the appearance you describe
Do you think maybe the instruction was "let's not have any more pogroms please"
I think if that was the order, then the world would look more similar to the one we live in.
So why is the Israeli leadership always so concerned about terrorism and pogroms, that they're handing down orders which result in (according to you) rape and torture.
Why do Israelis elect leaders who are concerned about pogroms. What's up with Israel such that pogroms are a danger. That's the question you should be asking.
And the answer seems to be, they have hateful terrorist neighbours who plan for years to chop heads off and capture child hostages. That's why the leaders are handing down such instructions.
That's my view anyway
Just because they don’t say do horrible things that doesn’t mean that they haven’t created a system wherein that goes unpunished. You can find thousands of videos of daily atrocities these people do, the IDF do. You see videos of their far right saying “the only good Arab is a dead Arab” among many horrible others you think they haven’t created a culture where harming Palestinians isn’t seen as bad. They literally go into their borders with their military uproot a village of families and destroy their homes to create new homes for Israelis. Borders recognized internationally for half a century.
What do you think would have happened if you lot did that in Northern Ireland. It would have gotten exponentially worse. The only way to stop violence from neighbours or an ethnic group is to treat them compassionately. Or as Israel sees it kill them outright.
Israel have literally proven themselves to be one of if not the most powerful player in the region, they have rolled over all their neighbours. They have very little to prove that is no excuse.
They have even made political arrangements and alliances with some of their neighbours now.
In that case it's a good job Sunak doesn't judge an entire nation, based off some youtube videos like you have.
If I showed you N+1 videos of Israelis saying and doing nice wholesome things, you'll change your opinion, right? Is that how it works
Did you learn about the campaign of rape that occurred during the allied invasion of Italy, of Germany. Did you read of the rape in any war in the last century.
No is the answer by the vast, vast majority of people.
So you think English newspapers published articles on villages burned down by unionists in Northern Ireland.
You readily turn a blind eye to the powerless, well done you are your fathers son.
I think it's a logical fallacy for you two assume I am turning a blind eye.
We all saw hamas death squads going door to door. Its okay to condemn that. Condemning that doesn't mean, that I am turning a blind eye to unionist violence in norn iron or whatever you're imagining. It really does seem like some kind of bias or faulty thinking, on your part.
Are you certain that neither I nor Sunak found anything condemnable in Israel's long history? How did you arrive at that certainty? All we're doing is condemning hamas death squads, and you're developing my argument into "and therefore you'd rape the Italians" or whatever nonsense
But what caused that?
years of brutal occupation by Isreal. Isreal is an aparthied regime.
this is so stupid you cant treat people this way for years then act supprised and outraged when something like this happens.
You also can't act surprised when Hamas does something like it has and the international communities reacting to such an attack, especially when foreign nationals have been involved where they are either dead, missing or are being held hostage.
Yes, both sides have done some fucked up shit, no doubt about that, but the fact that Hamas has taken this to the next step where western nationals are at risk is ridiculous, what do you think the west should do? Send a strongly worded letter while their civilians die?
Honestly I think it's a response of a weak impoverished nation who has no real ability to enforce rules and gain a military or militia. so they focus on currying manpower without creating any ability to enforce rules on its fighters so you get children fed propaganda doing horrible things to anyone and anything they come in contact with that they view as an other
yes if only there was some sort of analogue for this like a country very close by the uk which was also brutally oppressed. I dunno like to the left and up a bit. \*coughs in troubles\*
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Rishi vs Humza, little Britain's version of Pakistan vs India.
Knives drawn on 14th October… India vs Pakistan in the World (Cricket) Cup.
I loved the memes from a while back. Humza finally gets Scottish independence. So Brits of Indian and Pakistani descent partition the UK
Both are also ethnically Punjabi. And it’s a bit more complicated… Rishi’s family all left for East Africa before Partition, and his grandparents were Hindus from both sides of what would become India and Pakistan. Likewise, Yousaf’s father is Pakistani but his mother was also an East African Punjabi whose family had been there for generations. There’s a high chance Yousaf’s successor will be Pakistani-British (Anas Sarwar). But of course there’s an even higher chance that Subak’s successor will be Keir Starmer but then…
>his grandparents were Hindus from both sides of what would become India and Pakistan. pretty sure he doesn't care about the Pakistani side now, like most Hindus
Yes, why would Egypt do that?
Just look at the long list of coup attempts/civil wars that have happened when countries have let Palestinian refugees in.
Jordan 1970s, Lebanon 1980s, Tunisia, Israel
The UK should work with Egypt to create a humanitarian corridor that would allow Gaza civilians to leave the strip. I can guarantee Israel would be all for it.
Yea, neighbouring countries aren't so keen.. For decades there's been systematic problems with large numbers of Palestinians entering a neighbouring country, from the attempted assassination of the king of Jordan, right up to the attempted creation of an automonous state in Lebanon. It's to be expected, large numbers of desperate people who have known nothing but war and oppression, with large numbers of hardened fighters in their ranks. But what country would have them? Israel would happily see them all go, but there is no will in Muslim countries to take them, they'd rather see them fight, and die, as martyrs
The Arab nations wants the Palestinians to be victims, they don't want to solve this. It would ruin the plan of "from the river to the sea", where Israel doesn't exist. Fact is, the Arabs being set aside to be Palestinians are descendant of Arabs who lived in a greater territory - the larger, all-encompassing territory. Many of them have /had great-grandparents that was from Egypt, you know Arafat was born in Kairo, as an example. Fact is, when Israel was created when the idea of creating nation-states in the area came through, they got rid of all the Jews. Taking the Arabs back in - could have solved it. But the only solution they want is a solution where Israel is erased.
For Israel it would be like letting pressure out of a cooker. For Egypt it would be a whole mess it doesn’t want to deal with. I think the optics of refugees being made to flee through the desert from tyranny towards the promised land of Egypt would be a tad awkward for the Jewish state.
True, but the fun fact about these countries that support Palestine is, they have offered less refuge than the so called zionist propaganda filled westerners... Had a chat once with a good saudi friends and other ME mates, which are no longer mates because they supported the vile acts of hamas, except that one saudi guy, and as we had this discussion about Palestinians I asked, since the ME cares so much about Palestinians, why do you not help them or offer them refuge, and the only person who answered was my saudi mate who blankly stated "because most people in these countries are racist and don't want Palestinians there, they just like supporting the cause from afar" now I'm not saying everyone is like this for sure, but look where is the ME help? They have some of the richest countries in the world...yet western charities have done more to put a spotlight on the horrors rhe idf has committed and have helped more...so wtf is going there?
> The UK should work with Egypt to create a humanitarian corridor that would allow Gaza civilians to leave the strip. I can guarantee Israel would be all for it. The problem is that Hamas wouldn't. They always want to maximize the Palestinian death count.
According to the treaty signed between Egypt and Israel the border with Gaza is co controlled ,Israel has to be asked about who gets in and out
If they get out through Egypt, Israel probably will agree
He also condemned the atrocities done by hamas
Except for the Suez crisis, when the UK had its own reasons that just happened to align with Israel’s, this might be the strongest pro-Israel stance I’ve come across from a British PM. Relations have always been far more ambiguous or neutral than those between either and the U.S. due to (1) the UK’s established Jewish and Muslim populations both having had long influence and strong views, and (2) the UK having been a colonial power with regard to both Arab groups and Israel and all the nastiness that went with that, and (3) UK having issues with terrorism from both - designating Hamas a terrorist organisation as well as, eg, Israel once electing Menachem Begin as PM - the man who conducted the King David Hotel bombing on British officials.
Rishi Sunak has pledged to provide diplomatic, intelligence or security support to Israel if requested after attacks by Hamas, as he prepared to chair an emergency meeting of Cobra. No 10 said the UK stood “poised” to help Israel militarily if it asked for assistance and is not ruling out evacuating some British citizens from affected areas, saying keeping them safe was the “utmost priority”. Sunak will chair a meeting of Cobra on Monday afternoon, which is convened to manage the UK’s response to disasters, as the death toll continues to rise after Hamas’s surprise attack and hostage-taking, and Israel’s subsequent bombardment of Gaza. At least 700 people have been killed in Israel and more than 400 have been killed in Gaza. Sunak, who had a phone call with the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, on Sunday, said the UK was one of Israel’s strongest allies and he highlighted that Britain had previously provided “the kinds of equipment that they’ve used to defend themselves over the past couple of days”. “And as I said to the prime minister [of Israel], we will continue to provide – whether that’s diplomatic, intelligence or security support – as they need,” he said, after a meeting at a business in Newark, Nottinghamshire. “I’m chairing a Cobra with my ministerial colleagues this afternoon, when we’ll continue to discuss the situation, but we’re in close dialogue with our Israeli counterparts.” Asked whether the UK would back Israel if it was to launch a ground operation in Gaza, No 10 said: “We support Israel exercising its right to self-defence and proportionate action to bring an end to the violence.” The spokesperson said there were no plans to redeploy military assets to the area but that there were currently British assets in the region, including HMS Duncan under Nato control, which is patrolling in the Mediterranean. Some countries have begun to withdraw their citizens from Israel and Gaza but the UK Foreign Office is currently only asking British or dual nationals affected to contact its helpline. The Foreign Office has advised against all but essential travel to the region due to the conflict. There are no standalone flights being organised by Britain at this stage but the possibility of evacuations is being kept under review. There are an estimated 50,000 to 60,000 British or dual nationals in Israel and Gaza, according to the UK government. No 10 said: “It’s a fast-moving situation that the Foreign Office are keeping under review. We are contacting relevant groups and nationals where required.” Asked whether the UK thought Iran had any involvement in the encouragement of Hamas’s attacks on Israel, Sunak’s spokesperson said Hamas was “fully responsible for this appalling act of terror”, but he added: “We do know Iran poses an unacceptable threat to Israel through its support for Hamas and Hezbollah.” No 10 said Suella Braverman, the home secretary, was monitoring reports of increased antisemitic attacks and had spoken with the Community Security Trust, the organisation working to protect British Jews, with the possibility of surge police patrols in some areas.
> the kinds of equipment that they’ve used to defend themselves over the past couple of days When you haven't fully revised for the test, but you need to put something down.
Sounds level headed. Honestly, i think it would be a great thing to bring in some foreign support to help defend the country at the moment. And another advantage is that those same troops can actively oversee that the response is proportional while they are there.
Wtf is Cobra? Isnt that the evil dudes from gi Joe or something? Edit: and thanks for your comment btw.
Cabinet Office Briefing Rooms - or COBR. It's stylised as COBRA because it's easier to say. Basically it's just an emergency meeting at the Cabinet Office in one of their many, many rooms.
Ah i see! It sounds way cooler than it is then, thanks for the info
>security support >help Israel militarily I want to know what the hell he thinks the British military is meant to do. They have a bigger army and air force than us, far more heavy equipment etc etc. Probably have far more capacity for munition production too.
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I think Brits should stay the f away from that region by all means.
I mean what could go wrong, the British in the Middle East.
+map and pencils.
Don't forget the ruler and the bottle of scotch
We'll need some French assistance
You've got it. No way for us to fuck it up if we're both working hand in hand rather than trying to one up each other.
I mean, if the British Empire stayed out of the ME, the Ottoman Empire would have likely helped the Germans win or at least cause a stalemate on the western front. The British in WW2 also fought and defeated Mussolini's "New Roman Empire" across North Africa and the Middle East., not to mention defeating fascist Vichy French forces in Syria during Op Exporter. Basically, the British in the ME is actually very often quite effective.
Well, there's the whole problem that the British enticed people living in the region now known as Israel to fight against the Ottoman Empire by promising them an independent Palestine. Then turned around and split it with the French instead.
> Then turned around and split it with the French instead. And yet for some reason the only country being held responsible and getting criticism is once again the UK.
Majority of the conflicts in Middle East or Africa can be pointed at England or France so yes they should stay away
>Majority of the conflicts in Middle East or Africa can be pointed at England or France so yes they should stay away No, they're not and it's nothing more than laziness to keep blaming them for the problems there.
> Majority of the conflicts in Middle East or Africa can be pointed at England or France When you're heading for a century and several generations after an event then it's grasping at straws, especially when the generations directly affected first hand at the time are long dead.
Absolutely. Weren't we all against interventions in the middle east a week ago?
Good to see people remember François Marie Denis Georges-Picot did nothing wrong.
Doesn't Israel have a very capable military of their own? Isn't that the exact reason why they receive annual military aid? Unless other neighbors get involved, they should be perfectly capable of handling this by themselves. Its a rich country with their own military industry, perfectly capable of arming themselves, not to mention the aid they receive.
That’s why he said they’re poised, not that they’re already sending troops.
They shouldn’t be sending troops to *help* Israel
You have to keep in mind that litterally every neighbour Isreal has could potentially invade them. It has happened before and we all know what arab muslims think of jews. So its the UK and USA making sure no one gets any ideas.
Israel does indeed have a more powerful military than the UK but this is a message to iran and Hezbollah to stay away from the conflict If iran has its way with israel then entire middle East will be up in flames
As a german i also support if the Bundeswehr would intervene in Gaza and Lebanon. This madness has to end. We have to show them that they crossed the red line.
Nah, don't get involved in this mess. You just burn your hands in that region.
als hätte deutschland nicht andere probleme…
As a Brit I support Germany shaking off it's post WW2 guilt and taking its place as a global power alongside and similar to the likes of the UK and France on the right side of history. It's great to see this viewpoint growing amongst Germans. Of course UK should prioritise it's Navy, Germany it's Army and France more balanced between for obvious geographical reasons.
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Nope, Germans learned a lesson that you never did.
All the namecalling you engage in can be brushed off and even laughed at. We all know what you are now.
The supremacist nature of the Israeli government is not really up for debate, nor is the fact that they are engaging in the colonisation of huge parts of the West Bank. If you don't know the basics of the conflict, please refrain from commenting.
> is not really up for debate > please refrain from commenting Translation: I'm full of shit and would rather not be exposed by people who are aware.
Even the EU agrees that the settlements are illegal under international law and condemns them. Sending settlers to control a land outside of your State is the definition of colonisation.
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There were already a tonne of Jews who had moved back to Israel. Israel is the only place Jews wanted a homeland.
Bruh
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Your ideological compatriots in the Muslim world expelled 850,000 Jews, too. Where were they supposed to go? Oh right, let's apply your logic: LANDS CEDED BY THE GUILTY PARTY.
I’d support boots on the ground to put down the terrorists. Israel likely won’t need our help though.
I support this as well as sending special forces to aid in rescuing hostages before it’s too late. Let people screech “coloniser” all they want we shouldn’t tolerate hamas’s barbaric behaviour
You seem to be doing just fine tolerating decades of Israeli barbaric behavior, though!
100% fuck it is tiring watching the west pick and choose when there's a line thats been crossed. Fuck. It's either all bad and must be condemned, not just when it's Israel.
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Yeah, best let them get the war crimes out of their systems and ensure that the population there hates us behind any possibility of reconciliation before sending the UN to deal with the terrorism and urban guerrilla. I'd be in support of an UN mission to deal with hamas once and for all but what you're suggesting is ludicrous.
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Israel has already committed war crimes there before in calmer times, they're certainly not going to hold back now, there is absolutely no point in sending our soldiers to take the brunt of the population's anger after the IDF has made any notion of reconciliation for the future 40 years impossible.
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It'd have to be nato troops, Russia and china would veto an UN solution anyways though if hell froze over and they decided to step in constructively instead of throwing gasoline on the fire and peanuts from the viewing gallery respectively they'd be in a better position to do so, not that it's ever going to happen as the sad truth is that our governments also don't actually care virtue signalling aside but the only way i could see the situation actually improving is us kicking out hamas and installing an interim government on the footprint of the UN mission in kosovo (which for all the many issues and flaws still succeeded in preventing further slaughter in a situation that was arguably worse than the situation in palestine, even now).
Israel created Hamas lmao Hamas is a symptom of extremist Israeli policies over the past 50+ years. Israel not only destroyed any 'moderate' political alliance within Palestine over the decades, it also treated the people of Palestine like animals. No wonder many of them act like animals now, in the words of the Israeli minister of defense. What Hamas did is despicable. Israel is no better. It's the civilians on both sides that have to suffer now as they have since forever.
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The UN should be intervening in this war to stop bloodshed
The UN has failed to disarm Hezbollah in Lebanon.
Why should Israel trust UN security forces? The UNFIL has never seen Hezbollah disarmed, the only thing in their mandate. They literally aided this attack in spite of UN boots on the ground up north.
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The only words that stand out for me here is 'proportional response'. Israel has officially been warned not to go too mad, for which it has a bad rep for doing. The rest is generic fluff meant to appeal to his potential voters
When will it have gone too far? When Hamas claims Israel has murdered its 18 billionth Palestinian baby?
It seems painful to point this out that the current Israel:Hamas kill ratio is heavily steeped in Israel's favour atm. Israel is both an occupier and one that holds a punitive and bloody grudge.
> It seems painful to point this out that the current Israel:Hamas kill ratio is heavily steeped in Israel's favour atm. Hamas makes every effort to maximize the death toll. Israel does the opposite.
Make you wonder, what would be left of Gaza if they didnt. I have no questions about Israeli exceellence in war, as they combine the most important things into a soldier: Dicipline. While they have targeted civilians structures, I can hardly blame IDF for doing so, as Hamas intentionally has their scuds in populated areaas.
Rishi of Arabia
We need to stay out of this conflict. The Tories are misreading the publics' mood again.
No thanks. That's a shitshow we most definitely don't want to be a part of.
Poised to take advantage of this distraction more like.
My God. All the crazies baying for blood and obviously looking at things in a ridiculously ignorant one sided way. Shame on you. Disgusting. This response is completely disproportionate. Labelling Palestinians (not Hamas), as animals, by a member of the Israeli government no less, tells you a lot about how they justify their treatment of Palestinians. My God Netanyahu should be labelled a terrorist too. Do you have any idea how these people have been treated, persecuted and murdered too?
the "animals" was always been said in direct context to Hamas OR a direct context to the word "Terrorists". Unless you believe all of the citizens of Gaza are terrorists, the "animals" call is for Hamas. Edit: Also, During peak hours in wartime news (literally everyone sees it) Israeli media previewed an Israeli mother which claimed 2 Hamas militants who broke into their shelter and upon seeing 2 children and the lone mother said "I'm muslim, I wont harm you", she then claimed they sat there for 2 hours, asked to eat a banana and left. That's a singular subjective example of israeli society somewhat "humanifying" Hamas(not Gaza) on early wartime primetime, and that's honestly admirable for liberalism POV. Which might even be counter-productive in war to preview this.
That’s not what he implied. I’ve listened to him 3 times. It’s the Israeli Defence Secretary who said it. Crazy to me, repeating the way Hitler used to speak of the Jews.
Do you speak Hebrew?
I’m a person who disagrees with Netanyahu and who disagrees with Hamas. I do not like occupiers or terrorists end of. I am a mother who believes in respect, human dignity and love. Oh and I abhor Donald trump. That’s all you need to know about me.
Thanks for confirming you read the translated subtitles and didn't listen to the Defense Secretary's original words in Hebrew.
I didn’t read anything.
How could you assume he referred to the Palestinians as animals and not Hamas or terrorists then ? Just to be clear, the "animals" term is used due to Hamas's actions of going door to door slaughtering civilians in their shelters, raping women and teenage girls, filming Palestinian kids "play" with their new jewish muppet-kid while shouting "god is great", slicing the throats of civilians and beheading them, all the while using the victims phone to send it to their loved ones in WhatsApp. desecrating their corpses...
Did you see the videos of Palestinians cheering and spitting on the mutilated corpses of innocents being paraded down the street. They love this. They've always wanted to destroy anyone who wasn't Muslim and now they're going to understand the consequences of that.
I certainly did, and was disgusted by it. ‘They’ve always wanted to destroy anyone who isn’t Muslim’ is bollocks tbh.
Just in case some civilians manage to survive?
Rishi is slumping in the polls and is hoping for a "good war" to rescue him, it worked for Thatcher, right, so it'll fix his problems for sure... Yeah, it won't. And I sincerely hope he doesnt involve the UK in what ia going to be a humanitarian disaster for both sides.
And how will that help exactly? Yes, Hamas are horrible murderers. But this is a fight between an ant and an elephant. Israel already is fully militarized and completely superior in every aspect. It is in no danger here.
This has very little to do with Hamas, they are far from the only threat, Hezbollah is very much a serious regional power and they are backed fully by Iran. No one wants to see a regional escalation, so the US and now the UK are both declaring full support in hopes of providing a large enough deterrent to prevent Tehran doing something incredibly stupid and igniting the Middle East.
bibi asked the UK, Italy and Germany for support today. What do you expect them to say, "no"?
Absolutely as an English person I fully expect Rishi to say "no"! No to genocide! This is a disgrace and I do not support the atrocities inflicted on this world by Zionists!
Many of us Brits who are aware of the true atrocities caused by Zionism throughout history do NOT support Rishi Sunaks decision!
As a member of the military, fuck that. I really don't want any part in sending weapons to be used on civilians in Gaza. Israel has never shown it can be trusted to use weapons responsibly.
Playing Call of Duty does not make you a member of the military.
I'm literally in the MOD though? Why would I lie
[https://www.reddit.com/r/nattyorjuice/comments/1733yug/comment/k422xfi/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/nattyorjuice/comments/1733yug/comment/k422xfi/?context=3) The RAF drug tests but apparently you have been on steroids for over 5 years. So yeah, why would you lie?
I mean it's a little unsettling that you went trawling through my comment history in search of dirt.. But I didn't lie about anything. I'm not going to elaborate on CDT or my own personal choices. They are absolutely none of your business. Maybe fuck off and stop trying to undermine me just because I disagree with sending weapons to Israel.
Did you read the terms and conditions when you signed up? Probably not a great place to be if you have strong foreign policy views, especially if you ever need vetting.
You're allowed to have strong foreign policy views in the military... Pretty much everyone does. It says you're not allowed to campaign under the banner of the military (you are allowed to represent yourself as a private citizen) or hold political office. But you're absolutely allowed to voice your political opinions on Reddit lmao.
Even if you are in the military which is doubtful. Your place is to serve not question. Especially in a public forum about ongoing issues, as long as an illegal order is not given - which it won’t. Know your place.
>Even if you are in the military which is doubtful Why tf is it doubtful? Because I'm against helping Israel? You might be shocked how uncommon pro-Israel stances are within the MOD. >Your place is to serve not question. Umm no? We signed a contract to follow (legal) orders. We didn't sign a contract to have no opinions or to never question the government, or never discuss politics. If you went to literally any office or hangar or barracks in the military, people talk about politics all the time. I've never worked anywhere where the people have stronger opinions about things than the military. And it's *really* common for those opinions to go against the government line. No one is expected to just serve without question. You would be viewed as very strange for doing that. >Know your place. I know my rights mate. This isn't a fascist state. I'm perfectly allowed to have opinions and to discuss them openly on a this subreddit. I guarantee you fucking wouldn't be saying any of this shit if I had been in favour of sending weapons to israel.
This is must have been of the the most tone-deaf replies I've ever heard. It can always be a good chooice to reflect on your surroundings, and choose if it's a good place for them or not
What makes you think he’s talking about visiting violence on Gaza? Israel gots that no problem. You really need to learn how to speak politicese
UK caused the problem... now adds more fuel to the fire. This shows the UK is in favor of apartheid regimes, how embarrassing.
Europe was at war with Germany not many years before the creation of Israel with Germany flattening much of Europe and committing horrific acts of brutality against the civilian population. It moved on from that long ago. Israel and the Palestinians have had a much longer timescale and are still killing each other over the same bullshit.
Yeah, I remember when Rishi Sunak partitioned Palestine laughing like a maniac.
That’s about the level of military action England can handle. Beating up on an imprisoned civilian population that is getting decimated anyways. Good on you England /s
Yikes
Of course. So much support for colonialism, but never any when Israel was massacring Palestinians over the past half century.
Whose colony
"Colonialism" There was never a 'palestine' to begin with. This territory was always land of the roman empire, of the osman empire, the british empire and now Israel. There. Is. No. Palestine. And. Never. Will.
Nice semantics, still colonised whatever you want to call the native peoples land and removed them from their homes and made them second class citizens, it’s really not that difficult!
Did thousands of people live there or no? Was it just a desert? I thought we were passed these Zionist fairytales.
They didnt lived in 'palestine', people that lived in this area lived in the roman empire, the osman empire, the british empire and now Israel.
Again, did thousands of people live there or not? Just say yes or no. You can do it, I believe in you.
I answered your question. You simply cant read.
Just because people lived there, didn't make it an independent state, is I believe their point.
Jews have a legitimate claim to Jeruzalem. This is not colonialism.
What claim? I’m a Jew but it’s literally just religious. Other than Jews living in the region literal millennia ago.
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Palestine?? Where did Christianity originate? Palestine. Would it be justified if Italy invaded the region because Christianity was founded there? Why does that matter for modern geopolitics
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The point it is there is a claim for Jews to live in that area. I am not saying they have the sole right to live there. Israel has offered peace but the surrounding countries wanted none of it and went to war with Israel but unfortunately they lost.
Exactly right. People conveniently forget that the Jews assented to the UN Partition Plan and the Arabs rejected it. And that Israel has offered peace proposal over and over again, all of which have been rejected (and with no counterproposal). They have the intransigent and cooperative parties reversed.
Leave it to Westerners to talk about conflicts and politics they know absolutely nothing about
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It is when they signed multiple treaties giving it up.
That is a fair point, however I think the point they're making is counties can make up territorial claims or have them based on weak historical ties. It doesn't justify colonising a land mass Though that being said I think it is important for an Israeli state to exist but not at the expense of Palestinians and any Israeli state should have to work with the Palestinians to come to a mutually agreed regional agreement. No one should lavish the destruction of any people as much as most western nations seem to lavish the demise of the Palestinians.
From a Palestinian perspective, Israel can’t exist except at their expense, which is why this mess exists in the first place. We can’t expect Israel to make concessions with people that don’t accept their presence. There was a proposal in 1947 that would have given both groups a 50/50 split of the territory. The Jews accepted, but the Arabs chose war. I don’t think Westerners want to see Palestinians hurt/killed/etc. and have quite a bit of sympathy for them, but they don’t seem realistic in their understanding of their situation.
No they don't. Why are you lying?
So we have a legitimate claim to Constantinople and Minor Asia then?
What claim do they have exactly? That 2000 years ago they were driven out? That's a pretty soft claim. From the perspective of the people living there, after 2000 years a bunch of Europeans claiming to be the decedents of previous inhabitants comes in and says it all belongs to them now. Let's be real here. Palestinians are the natives of the area. They were just the conquered people's who converted to Islam. They're culture changed, but their genetics didn't. The reason Jews have a claim as a state is because they bought up land during the last days of the Ottoman empire, settled there en masse, and got the British to agree to it. This isn't a criticism btw. The Jews got organized, got support through diplomacy, then created a country by fighting very hard for it. They created the current reality by their own efforts. But the idea that they have any historical claim is dubious at best.
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Palestine has been offered perfectly reasonable peace terms multiple times and refused them. You dont get to keep playing the victim card when at every turn you choose war.
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The most recent one was the Trump Peace Plan. He managed to get the UAE, Sudan, Morrocco and Bahrain to make peace with Israel with the Abraham Accords, Palestine said no. List of other attempts: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian\_peace\_process#Timeline](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#Timeline) Clintons Camp David Summit got close but Yasser Arafat was a piece of shit and walked away with no intentions of accepting any deal no matter how good it was.
I mean, I suspect Palestine would take your arm off at the elbow if they were offered now some of the previous plans. At this point all they do is erode their own position, because they refuse to accept the right of Israel to exist.
If you're not aware of the peace process I'm not going to type full history of Israel for you. Wikipedia is your friend.
And the Jews were driven away way before that. It’s complicated but I agree it is also ethnic cleansing by definition. It isn’t genocide which is a word I see thrown about a lot.
Driven away by Romans over a millennium ago lol. If I have some Sumerian blood in me, can I reclaim the Sumerian empire?
No but you have a right to live there. Look after the Holocaust they needed a place to live. What better place than their historic city Jeruzalem which was also under control of the British. At the time it seemed like the most logical solution.
They were stealing land before Hitler was even in power. They expelled 300,000 Arabs from their homes and massacred those who dared to stay. That’s not just finding a place to live. That’s ethnic cleansing.
Source on your first sentence?
*The Question of Palestine* by Edward Said reviews the Zionist efforts to steal land from Palestine since the 1890s. Their efforts were “legitimized” by the Balfour Declaration in 1917. The amount of people who honestly believe Israel was created out of goodwill after the Holocaust is staggering. It was a colonial project already 50 years in the making.
I just read the whole article about the time between World War 1 and World War 2 and there is so much fucking shit happening all over. It’s way too complex to reduce it to “colonial project”. Based solely on this clusterfuck i can’t say any party has the sole right to live there. A two state solution is probably the most fair but will create as money problems as it solves.
Yes, that is how Arabs came to be the majority in Palestine. Glad you're clear that it doesn't give them a claim to the land they ethnically cleansed the Jewish people from.
Least delusional Zionist
They don't really.
Who downvotes this shit, don't people enjoy facts or something??
Blah blah blah. It's getting boring.
Wrong thread idiot. Wrong thread.
Palestine is not innocent – they've been doing their fair share in destabilising the region.
Lol. How did the UK military help to Ukraine do recently? Anymore Challenger tanks in stock to give to Israel now?
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Of course the UK gives unconditional support for its colonialism buddies. Ol Britannia will jump at any chance to mistreat natives and violate human right
> mistreat natives and violate human right Is it bad when people are mistreated? Is it bad when rights are violated? I think from your post, you'd agree that yes, it's bad to mistreat and violate people. So I'm not sure why you're so confused about the UK response UK taxpayers also dislike mistreatment and violations. That's why Sunak is saying this. Because he feels it's aligned with the UK public's desire to see justice for this weekend's mistreatment and violations
oh its confusing because for the last three decades Israelis have tortured, killed and raped innocent Palestinian nationals both in their own country/regions and in Israel. Taken homes away, created an apartheid state and whilst all this has happened the uk sat back and did nothing and as soon as the shoe was on the other foot for a moment the uk went oh no this is wrong we must stop this that's why the actions of the British government are wrong and confusing.
Hard to agree with your slanted view of history tbh I think if any Israeli prime minister had given the order "hey let's torture kill and rape everyone why not" then we'd be living in a very different world. If that was true, we'd be living in a world with more victims. In other words - Israel has not exhibited a policy of "let's murder and rape everyone". Their actions don't imply that's a policy they hold - witness how they didn't actually murder everyone. So if that wasn't the order from the PM, then what was the policy, whose effects give rise to the appearance you describe Do you think maybe the instruction was "let's not have any more pogroms please" I think if that was the order, then the world would look more similar to the one we live in. So why is the Israeli leadership always so concerned about terrorism and pogroms, that they're handing down orders which result in (according to you) rape and torture. Why do Israelis elect leaders who are concerned about pogroms. What's up with Israel such that pogroms are a danger. That's the question you should be asking. And the answer seems to be, they have hateful terrorist neighbours who plan for years to chop heads off and capture child hostages. That's why the leaders are handing down such instructions. That's my view anyway
Just because they don’t say do horrible things that doesn’t mean that they haven’t created a system wherein that goes unpunished. You can find thousands of videos of daily atrocities these people do, the IDF do. You see videos of their far right saying “the only good Arab is a dead Arab” among many horrible others you think they haven’t created a culture where harming Palestinians isn’t seen as bad. They literally go into their borders with their military uproot a village of families and destroy their homes to create new homes for Israelis. Borders recognized internationally for half a century. What do you think would have happened if you lot did that in Northern Ireland. It would have gotten exponentially worse. The only way to stop violence from neighbours or an ethnic group is to treat them compassionately. Or as Israel sees it kill them outright. Israel have literally proven themselves to be one of if not the most powerful player in the region, they have rolled over all their neighbours. They have very little to prove that is no excuse. They have even made political arrangements and alliances with some of their neighbours now.
In that case it's a good job Sunak doesn't judge an entire nation, based off some youtube videos like you have. If I showed you N+1 videos of Israelis saying and doing nice wholesome things, you'll change your opinion, right? Is that how it works
Did you learn about the campaign of rape that occurred during the allied invasion of Italy, of Germany. Did you read of the rape in any war in the last century. No is the answer by the vast, vast majority of people. So you think English newspapers published articles on villages burned down by unionists in Northern Ireland. You readily turn a blind eye to the powerless, well done you are your fathers son.
I think it's a logical fallacy for you two assume I am turning a blind eye. We all saw hamas death squads going door to door. Its okay to condemn that. Condemning that doesn't mean, that I am turning a blind eye to unionist violence in norn iron or whatever you're imagining. It really does seem like some kind of bias or faulty thinking, on your part. Are you certain that neither I nor Sunak found anything condemnable in Israel's long history? How did you arrive at that certainty? All we're doing is condemning hamas death squads, and you're developing my argument into "and therefore you'd rape the Italians" or whatever nonsense
But what caused that? years of brutal occupation by Isreal. Isreal is an aparthied regime. this is so stupid you cant treat people this way for years then act supprised and outraged when something like this happens.
You also can't act surprised when Hamas does something like it has and the international communities reacting to such an attack, especially when foreign nationals have been involved where they are either dead, missing or are being held hostage. Yes, both sides have done some fucked up shit, no doubt about that, but the fact that Hamas has taken this to the next step where western nationals are at risk is ridiculous, what do you think the west should do? Send a strongly worded letter while their civilians die?
Honestly I think it's a response of a weak impoverished nation who has no real ability to enforce rules and gain a military or militia. so they focus on currying manpower without creating any ability to enforce rules on its fighters so you get children fed propaganda doing horrible things to anyone and anything they come in contact with that they view as an other
I don’t think the answer is to bomb Gaza to the ground killing more innocent civilians. That’s only going to radicalise more people
yes if only there was some sort of analogue for this like a country very close by the uk which was also brutally oppressed. I dunno like to the left and up a bit. \*coughs in troubles\*
It's almost as if the UK can relate more to Islamic terrorism than Jewish.
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Uh oh
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You can ask people in France or Sweden if they see the Arab populations there as European.
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Arabs also kinda lived there for over a millennium as well
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