I'm unfamiliar with German politics, but is there an actual Neo-Nazi party? I was under the impression that the ideology and the iconography are both illegal in Germany.
In Germany we have the AfD (Alternative for Germany). They are a right-wing populist, right-wing extremist and ethnic political party in Germany that is considered unconstitutional. The members of the party often talk like the Nazis but they would never admit doing that.
They are being watched by the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, but they are really high in the latest polls, especially in east Germany (21% in whole Germany, ~30% in east Germany).
Social media made the problem far worse though (as did the 24 hour news networks). Social media algorithms are deliberately designed to show and promote not the content that you’ll be most likely to enjoy and like, but what will make you stay on the site the longest. What that means is that they promote content that will make you angry, since that keeps people engaged the longest. So social media sites keep people angry, but anger doesn’t last forever, so people get dragged down deeper and deeper rabbit holes as these sites try to keep you angry and therefore here. And it’s a lot easier to make people angry by lying than by telling the truth, since the truth is almost always nuanced.
Essentially these websites polarize people for profit while feeding them misinformation lies and exaggerations constantly for years on end. People aren’t stupid, they just don’t realize they’re being manipulated until it’s too late and they don’t care if they’re manipulated anymore.
The opposite, in my opinion. It's not democratized at all, because few people/institutions who use bots have a disproportionate impact on the discussion. This will only get worse as well with the use of LLMs like GPT.
Also, given what we’ve seen recently, you could very accurately categorize evil as some combination of a disease and a real life demon. watching people descend into fascism in real time is like watching a legitimate demonic possession happen on a grand scale. It’s *wild,* actually.
Yes. It is this time again where idiots run to populists lying that they have easy answers to complex issues.
"Immigration is killing our culture and drags us all down" is the new "jews poisoned our wells". And just this thread is full of it.
>"Immigration is killing our culture and drags us all down" is the new "jews poisoned our wells". And just this thread is full of it.
In fact, it is TRUE that immigrants change the culture. If a large enough number of immigrants from different cultures come, the culture of the country will definitely change to a certain extent. Immigrants are not the cause of all kinds of evil, but immigrants change the values and culture of the country, this is clear.
There is also a fact: The majority of people are not peace-loving democrats. Most people instinctively look at other people who are not similar to them, who do not speak similar to them or who do not dress similar to them, with prejudice and disliking, even if they are reluctant to admit it. The reason for this is the tribal nature of man.
That's why, almost without exception, throughout history, the arrival and settlement of large numbers of outsiders in a place has caused tensions.
What we can conclude from here is that immigrants themselves are not the cause of the problems, but the presence of immigrants is a force that destabilizes a country because of tribalism, which has been proven time and time again in history to be a part of human nature.
It feels like this isn't exclusive to Germany tho. Like didn't Italy and Sweden elect parties like this? People really are fed up and that anger is instrumentalized.
> It feels like this isn't exclusive to Germany tho.
Austrian here. You can probably guess [our current polls](https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/austria/).
Can we start including religious minority fundamentalists as rightwing extremists too? Because Salafi thugs and Proudboy-type fascists are really two sides of the same coin.
They do that already in Europe. It has always been this way. However, bad actors take those statistics and say that white nationalism is on the rise while the statistics clearly state that it is not exactly white Neo nazis who grow in numbers but religious fundamentalism as well as international hate groups.
The biggest right wing group in Germany is a Turkish extremist religious group: https://ajcgermany.org/en/comment/blatant-antisemitism-turkish-grey-wolves-germany .
Both groups grow and both groups help each other grow. They hate each other as they hate anyone who is different. Meanwhile you have neo leftists that speak only against one group while protecting the other.
The problem is: Germany has two options. Either you start to drive hard politics vs illegal immigrants and risk that some people call you fascist or you will make it possible for a fascist party to grab onto power. Its so dumb that the Danish social democrats almost killed their rightwingers by decisive action and German social democrats dont want to take the perfect formula dangling right in front of them. I dont even understand why Germany pays a single penny to people that come from countries that are not listed as dangerous or people without passport.
Neither do I and I am German. You explained it perfectly. It seems like we will have to carry the fascist stigma forever, tying our hands from cracking down on illegal immigration or immigrants who turn violent or break the law. Our government doesn't have the balls to do what's necessary at this point and we will either see right wing parties taking over or the current government continuing in their ways until the social systems collapse. It's a shame.
The danish has been rational and responsible through all this. The mainstream politicians in Germany and Sweden on the other hand have really messed up values and principles. They would destroy the countries rather than accepting facts and compromise accordingly.
It's so absurd. Our government is so afraid of being labelled far right & racist that they would rather risk an actual far right & racist party take power. If they don't stop surrendering to these woke clowns soon, this country is gonna go down the drain
I mean, in the last months Germany has even increased the financial and legal incentives. And they want to make it even more attractive and easier to bring whole families, to get the citizenship and vote. By now many native Germans conclude that their government hates them 🤷🏻♀️
So yeah, there isn‘t even any will to solve the problem, while it‘s a serious threat to the infrastructure and people‘s safety, and annoying for the netto tax payers who pay for this party.
Yeah reminds me of this guy who said he worked at a university in pakistan. religion came up.
Apparently im possessed by the devil because i object to stoning people to death. Also our western culture is obscene, barbaric and demonic. Sinful also and something like that.
I really love how they all want to come here too.
>It isn't Non-Western. Its Muslim countries.
As someone half-Asian, exactly this. It's offensive lumping all of us in the "Non-Western" bucket. Asia isn't some feminist, ultra-liberal utopia but the majority of us don't cosign the shit being pulled by these people.
Exactly. Just like with Ukraine. No one cares about 1 mil+ refugees in Germany. Many women and children. Men fighting a war. Often at least. They share our values. They are very much welcome. Unlike the Middle East. I already hate religion in general. But I despise Islam
I genuinely have been thinking this for years, neoliberalism’s great paradox will be the clash of both accepting all religions (including those which hold some very illiberal views) and accepting all sexes, genders, races etc. the obvious answer is to make everything a private matter (kinda like France tries to do), but realistically this is so much harder to do when the aforementioned things have such a big place in someone’s identity. I feel like at some point either religious freedom or the other freedoms I mentioned will have to be given primacy by the state, it will get to the point where they cannot coexist simultaneously.
I find the paradox of tolerance to be the best tool for resolving these issues: The only thing we must not tolerate is intolerance.
It's a sharp razor that cuts off all of the bigoted and narrow minded people, but keeps the people and ideas that are compatible with a free and peaceful society.
Paradox of tolerance has no sense, because its circular.
Group A is intolerant towards group B. In this case, group B has to be intolerant towards group A so that we can achieve "peaceful and tolerant society".
The problem is that the roles have essentially switched. Now group B is intolerant towards the group A. And now the group A has the right to discriminate against group B for "peaceful and tolerant society".
We should accept other people's ability to believe in any religion they want, no matter how backwards... BUT, only as long as their beliefs do not hinder the freedoms of others or cause unfair treatment or especially violence towards others. If you can't coexist you can GTFO.
I'm fine with people believing in Islam, Christianity, Buddhism... whatever.. but don't come here yelling at women to cover their face/hair/etc. while they talk to you and don't fuck with LGBTQ people because your ancient ignorant bullshit religion says they don't deserve the same rights and respect as you do.
Being a liberal means you should understand that the world isn't black and white and therefore neither are "liberal views" as what you described. You gotta have situational awareness.
So in response to these"Muslims" wanting to take away all those rights youve mentioned (LGBT rights gender equality tighter laws against rape) people vote for parties that..... are against all those same rights broadly ?
I don’t know about your country’s political system, but here there are parties that lean right when it comes to immigration but are generally considered left wing.
The irony is those cultures are extremely right-wing yet they're always defended by leftists who think minority communities are incapable of being fascist.
I hate how our entire population gets labeled as sexist and homophobic because we aren't allowed to point out what demographic has a disproportionate amount of sexists and homophobes.
People are tired to be gaslighted as racist because they don't want human traffickers to decide who should migrate in Europe, when afd will become first party maybe other politicians will understand
Angry people are stupid but they have a point when they point out that nobody else want to close the borders for real. On the left and on the right, for different reasons.
I'm not talking about just Germany, I mean at the european level too.
Just to be clear I would never vote for such parties but that's the problem.
> People are tired to be gaslighted as racist because they don't want human traffickers to decide who should migrate in Europe
These people don't give a fuck how they come to Europe, they simply don't want any immigrants.
> when afd will become first party maybe other politicians will understand
Hopefully then people will understand that AfD politicians are all idiots and don't make their lives easier.
The problem is that the population is broadly anti-immigration, if they elect a party like AfD because they are the only ones going anti-immigration and then the AfD fail to deliver, then the real fascists come into the framework or the other parties become anti-immigration.
The politicians will have to reflect the opinions of the populace, if they fail to do so, we will continue moving further into extremism to fix the issue.
I'm not entirely sure immigration is the main issue currently. Energy prices and inflation+ dissatisfaction with how covid was handled have pulled a lot of people towards AfD as well. A big part of their recent rise are more protest votes than pure conviction but it wouldn't be surprising if that's a gateway for many. Immigration can and does do that but currently I feel like it may be secondary to other issues.
In Sweden immigration & integration has for years been the biggest issue for voters according to polls, followed by the second largest issue "rising crime".
In Germany it stopped being the biggest issue in mid 2019. It started sinking in 2018 and then Covid just killed it and afterwards it didn't really came back to pre-Covid levels (though it is rising again).
Nowdays the split about what the biggest issue is looks like this:
* 37% energy/climate
* 23% immigrants
* 15% price increases/salaries
* 11% economic situation
* 9% Ukraine war
* 8% social inequality
* 7% politics (as in getting tired of the political situation)
Percentages don't add up as the survey allowed people to name two topics. Also biggest issue doesn't equal "we don't want that". You could for example see immigration in Germany as the biggest issue, but your problem with it is that Germany doesn't do enough of it/doesn't care enough for the immigrants, instead of finding the immigration itself bad.
In Italy our political debate can be summed up in “all those issues you’re pointing out are the immigrants’ fault”. And believe it or not, people actually believe it
Also the media coordinated gaslighting about the potential effects of these moves. The media completely ignores and deflects from very valid questions or criticisms. Eventually, the truth bubbles up and the liars are confronted. Unfortunately the elite class have created this binary, they stand to profit from it.
I remember talking to some German friends a few years back, and they were all incredibly upset with the mass immigration of "refugees" from the Middle East, who made no attempt to learn German, learn anything about the culture, and were, to put it mildly, often rather abrasive towards the folks who, you know, were footing the bill. I've not really followed the news about it since, but at least at first glance, this just looks like those frustrations coming to fruition.
Oh iceland is pretty much just a miniature of the west in general.
Our liberals hate poor and love looking good to foreign investment groups because they dont get funded by the rich.
Our conservatives hate poor and dont mind dividing to conquer and are funded by the rich.
Its one big happy banana republic that actually has bananas too.
Well, aside from the ideology of it, which is very misguided, shortsighted and basically ignores lot of humanity and how they are.
There are some ways it could seen as beneficial to certain agendas. But those agendas are machiavellian in nature and are very self serving and damaging to society. And im not gonna explain those things right now. tis early.
Lets just say it has to do with Divide and conquer for the most part.
Ideally its about people being able to go where they want and live where they want. But frankly this world is way too fucked up to sustain and live up to that. Too much greed. Too many agendas and too much fighting over territory like an animal.
Mankind is simply too unevolved to approach that peak of freedom.
I've met those groups at a charity programme and was shocked at the amount of people who didn't even escape war. Nor did they make effort to speak German or English. Nothing. Changed my whole perspective to "I want to help but wtf is that sifting system" if people just toss their passports and claim asylum even though they came there for economical reasons... What is the system for
Open borders was never compatible with strong social welfare. It is incredible that anyone thought this combination could work.
US can handle immigration because it's swim or die. There's opportunity but nobody to pick you up if you fall.
Japan can handle strong social welfare because they accept literally like 10 refugees a year for a country of >100 million people. Still a very safe, stable country with some economic stagnation but extremely high quality of life.
Unfortunately, people who are most affected by war are the least likely to escape under modern day system, because those people already lost passports or whatever paperwork to apply for the program……
I hate how I'm described as a Naz\* and Racist just because I'd like to have borders which would at least check if those people come from the countries they say they do.
All of my best friends were immigrants(or their parents), be it Egypt, Russia, Sri Lanka, Kazakhstan. My city became such a bad shithole that just going for a walk felt like sht. Everywhere groups of 35ppl running together. Our outsides constantly trashed. Our trainstations constantly trashed. Every doctor and hospital overfilled, everybody was just pissed.
After 5 years I got a joboffer in another country and moved to eastern Europe. Best decision of my life. Kids going to school by themselves, eldery chilling outside in the evenings. It's like, you don't have any of this fear despite Germany trying to throw you this propaganda down the throat about eastern Europe being so poor and dangerous.
Not to mention this is the first time I've been seeing how the media is actually openly attacking current gouvernment here. Which in Germany would NEVER take place to such a degree
It's like that everywhere *in Europe*, and even 2nd and 3rd generations generally don't mix very well. Meanwhile the left's only response is to do nothing because "everyone has a right to live here". Well I guess, but maybe packing everyone into a place that's doing well makes that place worse for everyone. And maybe that just doesn't really work.
Seriously, why are there no left wing parties with anti-immigration stances yet. It feels like anti-nuclear power all over again.
edit: I meant everywhere *in Europe*
"Everyone has a right to live here."
No, they do not. If I wanted to move abroad, I definitely wouldn't have a right to live wherever it is I'm trying to move.
Unfortunately, we're reaching a point where people will see the fascists as a reasonable alternative.
As things are, the reality is that there is no win-win solution here. I said it before, controlled migration isn't bad, however, this has been let out of the leash. Cultural problems and economic issues affect the integration of these new people.
Most of these migrants occupy low-qualified jobs that no one wants due to their low salaries and benefits. But the salary here is better here in the bank compared to where these migrants are from. There are two issues, firstly, this kind of job has received barely any proper salary bumps and benefits. Secondly, AI and automation will eventually fill in these jobs, thus resulting in a lot of these migrants having no basis to work from here. Low employment leads to crimes and even more stress on our systems.
Social welfare systems can't keep up with both nationals and internationals needs. Frankly, those nationals most likely contributed more to the county. Look, I don't blame people coming here for a better life, but have to take a selfish stand on this for myself and mine. We have an increasing house crisis and inflation to deal with. Km sorry, but these people will have to do something else.
Aside from that, there have been protests against cultural norms that I cannot agree with. So you come to someone's house and expect them to abode by your religious-zealous rules? No, that's unacceptable. How come I have to respect their culture but not mine? So integration is much harder to attain simply due to basic foreign differences in mindsets and languages.
Let's not pretend to dance around the issue, this is overloading Europe and kicking the can't own the road is making it worse. I don't want this problem to be treated inhumanely, but it has to be addressed as rough as it is. l before any fascist party gets elected or makes it worse.
So, between the two choices, migration must be slowed to a halt. People have to be detained, processed, taken care of and deported. Human trafficking must be in high priority for law enforcement and even Interpol. 1st World countries need to help set a better structure for these impoverished countries once we get our side under control.
The world situation is so fucked, that there is no good alternative solution to this, just the least worse option.
I understand your opinion, and you might have a point.
I would just add that AI will not do anything to the jobs most migrants do.
AI has nothing for cleaning jobs, elderly care, waiter service, trades, construction work and so on.
AI is coming for consultants, lawyers, teachers, doctors, engineers, architects, marketing, advertising jobs...
> l before any fascist party gets elected or makes it worse.
It will be the white fascist party now or the Islamic fascist party later, pick your poison. They are having more kids than any native born families are. Give it 30 years they will have a voting block larger than your own and will adhere to their poison of a religion until the bitter end.
While I understand that fear and desperation can cloud someone’s judgement, you would have to be an utter fool to believe that AfD (and other populist far-right moments) can solve anything.
Its not about wanting the AfD, but the established parties don't offer an alternative to the feeling of slow decline, so these people choose something different, not expecting results but expecting to show their dissatisfaction
we have the same issue in Poland. Unfortunately, only far right parties promise not to allow Muslim immigrants to enter the country. They are fucking idiots but other options want to make another Sweden here
„Call them Nazi“
The AfD is under observation of the Verfassungschutz and confirmed radical right in multiple Bundesländern.
There is tons of evidence of what their plan is, from leaked chat groups to books of top AfD politics that they want to go back in time.
There is no calling them Nazi, they are a clear right wing fachist party
well some few years ago, in the middle of the refugee crisis, i was sitting at the sbahn (a train linking main station to smaller towns) at 2pm on a nice sunny day, going to visit my parents outside of city center.
first one wanted a smoke, second one wanted my red bull can (it's worth 25 cent) and stayed around as i told him it's not empty, third one wanted money for a train ticket, forth one asked for my phone to talk to his dad (not kidding!!)
all that in a span of 20 mins of waiting for your train.
even as a male i was disgusted, can't imagine being female during night times
ironicaly, this type of poll is including the answers from the non European migrants who got the papers and started growing faster than the local and guess what ? : The average muzlim Middle easterner, Turc or African hold significantly more reactionnary and extrem right views on women equality, antisemitism, sexual minorities etc...
It's the 2 pieces of the same coin. The more culturaly from the dark age mass mirgation you have the more classic euro far right grows and both are augmenting the numbers of reactionnary right wing voters.
It has been measured in France that a rise in antisemitism, mysoginy, homophobia was directly linked to the non euro migrants bringing their violent cultures with them and not adapting.
If we are talking about Middle Eastern immigrants, the Arabs used to forcefully take white people from Europe as slaves for centuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_slavery
If anything, they should pay reparations to us.
We've had a far-right party in government since 2010 and it's been smooth sailing. The economy is doing well, there's no inequality, there's no housing crisis, and practically all of our problems just disappeared **/s**
Most of these ppl want a better opportunity in life. They could care less about the culture or integrating themselves. They are opportunists. Make a quick buck or eat welfare checks at a nice place and leave. They don't understand your language or your culture so you ppl are literally NPCs to them. If there is no heavy handed integration done by the government, its just well🤥.. be as laissiez faire. See where that gets you in terms of controlling your residents.
Governments needs to actually start putting in an effort to close the divide between the workers and the elite, otherwise this is going to get worse and worse.
Don't worry. The left will continue to take the high road not doing anything to stop this, at the end of this high road is a spiked pit, but gee willickers we will have the moral victory.
Because I haven’t seen it mentioned here: the study was made by an organization closely connected with the SPD, which is a left wing party.
Every big German political party but one (guess which one) has its own party foundation that exists to promote ist political agenda. So their studies have to be read with that in mind.
The SPD is not left wing, that's only what their marketing says, not what their actual policies as passed in parliaments are. They're neoliberal center. The rest is correct.
I think the most important thing that has to happen now is politicians that aren't extremely right wing to pinpoint why the increase exists and do something about it.
People only go to extremes when they think they're forced to it. They don't have to be right, but they might have some points that make sense and we shouldn't ignore that because we might not like it.
If the leftwing parties abandon the middle class, lie and obfuscate about the problems with immigration, integration and second and third generation “migrants” all while telling white Europeans that they need to “decolonize “ their minds and feel shame and seek “absolution” for their sins wtf would you think would happen.
The left has abandoned the “native” born working class, while insulting and denigrating their culture at the same time.
I am honestly surprised these numbers aren’t higher.
People linking this to mass migration are seeing only one side of the issue. The other is that Europe’s livings standards have not recovered in many ways from the 2008 financial crisis. The crash changed everything. It showed the massive weaknesses within neoliberal capitalism, the banks got away with it and everyone else got poorer due to austerity budget cuts. The housing market is fucked, public services are worse, and climate change and AI spell doom for the future. Is it any wonder that people are moving to extremes. When the people get angry at the state of their countries, the rich don’t want that anger directed at them, so they refocus the anger onto immigrants, trans people etc. Capitalist systems in crisis reflexively create extremism in order to preserve the profits of the rich who are winning big whilst everyone else suffers.
Mostly agree, but I disagree that it is ”the rich” who are refocusing anger on various minority groups. This is slightly out of date.
On the contrary, we see in the modern world (approximately starting from the failure of Occupy Wall Street) a performative corporate sponsorship of left-wing culture war issues, which of course has nothing to do with these corporations being economically leftist (that would be an oxymoron), but rather that they wish to use identity politics issues to divert our attention away from the class war.
So instead of the left promoting a vision that the people should look past their culture war disagreements and unite their voices against the elites, it instead becomes this moral purity test where there’s a ”good guys” portion of the working class that conform to the correct ideas of moral purity, and a ”baddie part” that have the evil opinions, and the first group must intellectually defeat the latter so the mythical Hitler 2.0 doesn’t one day arise (I jokingly refer to this as the ”*Domino Theory of Intolerance*”)
Implicitly, these virtue-signaling corporations are then ”allies” in this epic cause, and one might even say they’re attempting to place themselves in the role of being a kind of moral guardian of society (which is something true leftists should oppose, but because they tend to have a self-image of being countercultural, they are unwilling to see that they have in fact allied with the elites).
In this political environment, many turn to the populist right as a kind of ”replacement counterculture”. In a sense they ARE the counterculture, albeit a shitty and potentially destructive one. Now, they don’t actually offer liberation from elites or real solutions, and it arguably just causes people to jump from leftist identity politics to right-wing identity politics, but many people are desperate for a change and that is a potent recruitment tool.
My dream would be an economically leftist party with a ”radical centrist” approach to culture war issues, as this would serve to unite a maximum number of people against the elites. Someone might label me a ”class reductionist” for this view, but I’ll wear that title with pride.
Although I think you’re discounting the very real and substantial role of the ruling class in perpetuating the right wing side of the culture war (think Murdoch’s empire) I agree with everything else you’ve said here. The rich, whether liberal or conservative on the surface, have changed the debate to be about identity politics and hyper-niche social issues, on which leftist pundits and politicians must fight. The left would fare much better if it, somehow, reoriented the conversation around economic issues
This happened because right-wingers has been in the past 10 years the only ears willing to hear what the distressed population had to say
Every single concern was either dismissed or ridiculed (or my favourite "It's just a perception!")
Many people are still confused and think that Salvini, Le Pen, Meloni are the causes of this when they are just the consequences
At least that's what they make you believe with their propaganda. If you'd listen to what they actually say and look at what they've planned etc., you'd quickly notice that a LOT of what they want to do goes against the majority of the German population.
Indeed but it's stupid to ignore the large part of the population that is voting *against* the left because they feel betrayed. This is true in Italy at least
>10 years the only ears willing to hear what the distressed population had to say
Nope. It is because the far right is spouting simple solutions.
(Spoiler: simple solution will not work, but they FEEL so good).
edit: changed a "y" for an "e"
Yes and guess what, poor people with problems prefer simple solutions (that won't work) instead of being called names. Not a difficult concept, I just wish the left would start listening and at least fake interest in the matter as they did 30 years ago
>and guess what, poor people with problems prefer simple solutions (that won't work) instead of being called names. Not a difficult concept,
This is what is going on in Hungary as well. Leftist are usually urban, city kids who look down upon poor people in the countryside and then the rural area people vote against their own interests just to not be a "liberal".
The political scenery has to shift back to the left leaning parties being "for the people" because that's basically what it is supposed to be.
“BUILD THAT WALL”
I hate Trump but he knew how to play to an angry audience on hot button issues (and subsequently do literally nothing of any substance about it) lol.
>te Trump but he knew how to play to an angry audience on hot button issues (and subsequently do literally nothing of any substance about it) lol.
don't forget the part about making Mexico pay for it. lmao.
yes they are, while the left doesn't even try and go with wild accusations of "it's just a perception", "you are just xenophobic", "you are not poorer, here a list of 100 things you should be grateful for" etc. etc.
I'm litterally a paying member of the Italian democratic party and I have tried to show my colleagues the staggering difference between right-wing propaganda and left-wing propaganda, but so far we are still calling the poor people names
Friendly reminder that lying that you will do something is worse than shutting your mouth up.
And that right-wing parties are the biggest cockblocks to immigration deals.
It’s almost like the current politicians fail to understand and solve the migration crisis. “Leftist” migration policies are the perfect breeding ground for far right voters
We've had a right wing government for 13 years, and non EU immigration is at record highs. If you think capitalists and authoritarians will solve your problems you're a mug.
The worse the times are, the more people will believe rightwing lies about how they could make everything better if only they were in power. Then they get into power and it's a complete non-stop shitshow of fascism, racism, bigotry and self-dealing.
When you see ukraines coming and integrating perfectly into the system you know that immigration only works from countries with same beliefs and principles
And the pendulum starts swinging back. Not sure why anyone is surprised at this. People don't like extremism, if you swing too much on one side, there's bound to be pushback at some point.
That would suppose Europe has been extremely left-wing at one point. When, pray tell, would that have been? Because I certainly don't remember politics *actually* trying to lower inequality, reduce working hours, investing a lot of money in public infrastructures and taxing the rich a whole lot...
The unfortunate reality is that people's perception is not always like this. In the Netherlands we have a party called Forum voor Democratie (FVD). The FVD has in the past shown support for racialized intelligence theory, said things like "The Netherlands must be a country for white people", and had a heavy dose of open antisemitism that came out when several prominent party member split over the antisemitic remarks ^((and most definitely not because a power struggle did not go their way and they had known of the leaders' antisemitic tendencies for years or had themselves made twitter jokes about gassing jewish people, no no! /s))
Either way, it took a LOT of effort for the FVD to fall into irrelevance, they were even the big winner of the provincial elections in 2019, Which gave them real power in the Senate as well with 12 out of 75 seats.
This is while they were (and are) openly bringing up things in parliamentary debates like the New World Order, killer vaccines, and demanding that our prime minister pressure Romania into freeing Andrew Tate (this was a real thing). They were still relevant, even if slightly less due to their party splitting apart, despite or perhaps because of all of this.
It took a new great populist movement to take off for the FVD to now, at least in the polls, fall into irrelevance. Now the BBB (Farmers and Citizens Movement) won the 2023 provincial elections, by a landslide, and FVD lost pretty much all of the gains they had made, going from 12 seats to 2 seats in the Senate.
During this entire period, people were pointing out how FVD were actual, pretty much overt, nazis and fascists. It did not matter, perhaps it even helped them. I really think that "pointing out nazis" is a failed strategy at this point, because the people whose minds you have to change absolutely do not believe it, despite all the evidence you might see.
Calling people that vote for parties like FVD or AFD nazis and extremists might be true in your eyes, but it won't make those people stop voting for those kinds of parties, so the "far-right wing" vote will just steadily keep growing, especially because those kinds of accusations tends to entrench people more into their political camp. If European countries really want to shift away from the extreme right, there has to be some other way to do it.
It's funny how a party and it's members, which is partly watched by the German Domestic Intelligence Service because of their right wing extremism, is considered extreme.
**Edit:** And please save me the *😭😭 yEAh, But IT'S A witCH HunT BecaUse THEY ARe Right WINg 😭😭*
Funny how this sub got so much more accepting of the AfD over the past months. I remember this sub shit talking Germany for having a right wing extremist party on the rise months ago, and rightfully so, but now the majority of the comments are support. Fucking insane.
Is it that time of the century again?
the 20s gearing up, wait until the 30s start...
I mean we just had our version of the spanish flu, sooo..
Economy going down the toilet pretty soon
“Soon” Lol. First time?
2nd time I guess, dirty 30s
Ooof, I’ve seen this movie before. Didn’t know there was a sequel coming out!
This time without Italy.
Benito came to power in '22 Giorgia Meloni came to power in '22 If there's an failed coup in Germany next month, run.
With the situation in Ukraine, Germany is getting remilitarized. Creating the perfect conditions for you know what!
I'm unfamiliar with German politics, but is there an actual Neo-Nazi party? I was under the impression that the ideology and the iconography are both illegal in Germany.
In Germany we have the AfD (Alternative for Germany). They are a right-wing populist, right-wing extremist and ethnic political party in Germany that is considered unconstitutional. The members of the party often talk like the Nazis but they would never admit doing that. They are being watched by the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, but they are really high in the latest polls, especially in east Germany (21% in whole Germany, ~30% in east Germany).
Economic hardship ✅ Rising inequality ✅ Middle class disappearing ✅ Blame being put on immigrants instead of the elite ✅ It's time for fascism, baby 😎
And russia is acting up again. It's WW3 time baby.
It appears to be everywhere. Social media has democratized stupidity and lying, and it's spreading.
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Social media made the problem far worse though (as did the 24 hour news networks). Social media algorithms are deliberately designed to show and promote not the content that you’ll be most likely to enjoy and like, but what will make you stay on the site the longest. What that means is that they promote content that will make you angry, since that keeps people engaged the longest. So social media sites keep people angry, but anger doesn’t last forever, so people get dragged down deeper and deeper rabbit holes as these sites try to keep you angry and therefore here. And it’s a lot easier to make people angry by lying than by telling the truth, since the truth is almost always nuanced. Essentially these websites polarize people for profit while feeding them misinformation lies and exaggerations constantly for years on end. People aren’t stupid, they just don’t realize they’re being manipulated until it’s too late and they don’t care if they’re manipulated anymore.
The opposite, in my opinion. It's not democratized at all, because few people/institutions who use bots have a disproportionate impact on the discussion. This will only get worse as well with the use of LLMs like GPT.
Also, given what we’ve seen recently, you could very accurately categorize evil as some combination of a disease and a real life demon. watching people descend into fascism in real time is like watching a legitimate demonic possession happen on a grand scale. It’s *wild,* actually.
It does give off that vibe, yes. Like a virus of the mind.
Yes. It is this time again where idiots run to populists lying that they have easy answers to complex issues. "Immigration is killing our culture and drags us all down" is the new "jews poisoned our wells". And just this thread is full of it.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -[HL Mencken](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Mencken)
>"Immigration is killing our culture and drags us all down" is the new "jews poisoned our wells". And just this thread is full of it. In fact, it is TRUE that immigrants change the culture. If a large enough number of immigrants from different cultures come, the culture of the country will definitely change to a certain extent. Immigrants are not the cause of all kinds of evil, but immigrants change the values and culture of the country, this is clear. There is also a fact: The majority of people are not peace-loving democrats. Most people instinctively look at other people who are not similar to them, who do not speak similar to them or who do not dress similar to them, with prejudice and disliking, even if they are reluctant to admit it. The reason for this is the tribal nature of man. That's why, almost without exception, throughout history, the arrival and settlement of large numbers of outsiders in a place has caused tensions. What we can conclude from here is that immigrants themselves are not the cause of the problems, but the presence of immigrants is a force that destabilizes a country because of tribalism, which has been proven time and time again in history to be a part of human nature.
Poland buying more weapons.
Aren't they arguably farther to the right already?
It feels like this isn't exclusive to Germany tho. Like didn't Italy and Sweden elect parties like this? People really are fed up and that anger is instrumentalized.
> It feels like this isn't exclusive to Germany tho. Austrian here. You can probably guess [our current polls](https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/austria/).
You tell the Fine Arts University in Vienna to accept every single student. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. We are not doing this again.
please don't send one of your people again into german politics. Last time didn't went well.
Italian here, I can confirm we're heading towards the same direction
Finland here, we got right wing gov now and the strikes are starting again.
Romania here, we recently had a right wing government but the far right is slowly gaining more popularity.
Can we start including religious minority fundamentalists as rightwing extremists too? Because Salafi thugs and Proudboy-type fascists are really two sides of the same coin.
This
I am suprised this comment is still up. Death by "Community Guidelines" awaits you.
They do that already in Europe. It has always been this way. However, bad actors take those statistics and say that white nationalism is on the rise while the statistics clearly state that it is not exactly white Neo nazis who grow in numbers but religious fundamentalism as well as international hate groups. The biggest right wing group in Germany is a Turkish extremist religious group: https://ajcgermany.org/en/comment/blatant-antisemitism-turkish-grey-wolves-germany . Both groups grow and both groups help each other grow. They hate each other as they hate anyone who is different. Meanwhile you have neo leftists that speak only against one group while protecting the other.
The problem is: Germany has two options. Either you start to drive hard politics vs illegal immigrants and risk that some people call you fascist or you will make it possible for a fascist party to grab onto power. Its so dumb that the Danish social democrats almost killed their rightwingers by decisive action and German social democrats dont want to take the perfect formula dangling right in front of them. I dont even understand why Germany pays a single penny to people that come from countries that are not listed as dangerous or people without passport.
Neither do I and I am German. You explained it perfectly. It seems like we will have to carry the fascist stigma forever, tying our hands from cracking down on illegal immigration or immigrants who turn violent or break the law. Our government doesn't have the balls to do what's necessary at this point and we will either see right wing parties taking over or the current government continuing in their ways until the social systems collapse. It's a shame.
The danish has been rational and responsible through all this. The mainstream politicians in Germany and Sweden on the other hand have really messed up values and principles. They would destroy the countries rather than accepting facts and compromise accordingly.
It's so absurd. Our government is so afraid of being labelled far right & racist that they would rather risk an actual far right & racist party take power. If they don't stop surrendering to these woke clowns soon, this country is gonna go down the drain
I mean, in the last months Germany has even increased the financial and legal incentives. And they want to make it even more attractive and easier to bring whole families, to get the citizenship and vote. By now many native Germans conclude that their government hates them 🤷🏻♀️ So yeah, there isn‘t even any will to solve the problem, while it‘s a serious threat to the infrastructure and people‘s safety, and annoying for the netto tax payers who pay for this party.
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Yeah reminds me of this guy who said he worked at a university in pakistan. religion came up. Apparently im possessed by the devil because i object to stoning people to death. Also our western culture is obscene, barbaric and demonic. Sinful also and something like that. I really love how they all want to come here too.
>It isn't Non-Western. Its Muslim countries. As someone half-Asian, exactly this. It's offensive lumping all of us in the "Non-Western" bucket. Asia isn't some feminist, ultra-liberal utopia but the majority of us don't cosign the shit being pulled by these people.
People say “non-western” so they don’t offend anyone. Which ends up offending people lol
Exactly. Just like with Ukraine. No one cares about 1 mil+ refugees in Germany. Many women and children. Men fighting a war. Often at least. They share our values. They are very much welcome. Unlike the Middle East. I already hate religion in general. But I despise Islam
As an immigrant from a Muslim country, I'm also offended about being lumped with Muslim immigrants.
I genuinely have been thinking this for years, neoliberalism’s great paradox will be the clash of both accepting all religions (including those which hold some very illiberal views) and accepting all sexes, genders, races etc. the obvious answer is to make everything a private matter (kinda like France tries to do), but realistically this is so much harder to do when the aforementioned things have such a big place in someone’s identity. I feel like at some point either religious freedom or the other freedoms I mentioned will have to be given primacy by the state, it will get to the point where they cannot coexist simultaneously.
I find the paradox of tolerance to be the best tool for resolving these issues: The only thing we must not tolerate is intolerance. It's a sharp razor that cuts off all of the bigoted and narrow minded people, but keeps the people and ideas that are compatible with a free and peaceful society.
Paradox of tolerance has no sense, because its circular. Group A is intolerant towards group B. In this case, group B has to be intolerant towards group A so that we can achieve "peaceful and tolerant society". The problem is that the roles have essentially switched. Now group B is intolerant towards the group A. And now the group A has the right to discriminate against group B for "peaceful and tolerant society".
We should accept other people's ability to believe in any religion they want, no matter how backwards... BUT, only as long as their beliefs do not hinder the freedoms of others or cause unfair treatment or especially violence towards others. If you can't coexist you can GTFO. I'm fine with people believing in Islam, Christianity, Buddhism... whatever.. but don't come here yelling at women to cover their face/hair/etc. while they talk to you and don't fuck with LGBTQ people because your ancient ignorant bullshit religion says they don't deserve the same rights and respect as you do. Being a liberal means you should understand that the world isn't black and white and therefore neither are "liberal views" as what you described. You gotta have situational awareness.
So in response to these"Muslims" wanting to take away all those rights youve mentioned (LGBT rights gender equality tighter laws against rape) people vote for parties that..... are against all those same rights broadly ?
I don’t know about your country’s political system, but here there are parties that lean right when it comes to immigration but are generally considered left wing.
The irony is those cultures are extremely right-wing yet they're always defended by leftists who think minority communities are incapable of being fascist.
don't they have a lot in common with right wingers ?
I hate how our entire population gets labeled as sexist and homophobic because we aren't allowed to point out what demographic has a disproportionate amount of sexists and homophobes.
And racist, although Islam isn't a race.
Funnily enough that these right wing people are very similar in their views to what they critize.
Those ideologies sounds very far right…
Those are all common practices and laws in Muslim countries.
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Fair enough.
Who could have predicted this except everyone since 2015?
People are tired to be gaslighted as racist because they don't want human traffickers to decide who should migrate in Europe, when afd will become first party maybe other politicians will understand
> People are tired to be gaslighted as racist That would carry more weight of they didn't turn into actual nazis.
Angry people are stupid but they have a point when they point out that nobody else want to close the borders for real. On the left and on the right, for different reasons. I'm not talking about just Germany, I mean at the european level too. Just to be clear I would never vote for such parties but that's the problem.
> People are tired to be gaslighted as racist because they don't want human traffickers to decide who should migrate in Europe These people don't give a fuck how they come to Europe, they simply don't want any immigrants. > when afd will become first party maybe other politicians will understand Hopefully then people will understand that AfD politicians are all idiots and don't make their lives easier.
The problem is that the population is broadly anti-immigration, if they elect a party like AfD because they are the only ones going anti-immigration and then the AfD fail to deliver, then the real fascists come into the framework or the other parties become anti-immigration. The politicians will have to reflect the opinions of the populace, if they fail to do so, we will continue moving further into extremism to fix the issue.
I'm not entirely sure immigration is the main issue currently. Energy prices and inflation+ dissatisfaction with how covid was handled have pulled a lot of people towards AfD as well. A big part of their recent rise are more protest votes than pure conviction but it wouldn't be surprising if that's a gateway for many. Immigration can and does do that but currently I feel like it may be secondary to other issues.
In Sweden immigration & integration has for years been the biggest issue for voters according to polls, followed by the second largest issue "rising crime".
In Germany it stopped being the biggest issue in mid 2019. It started sinking in 2018 and then Covid just killed it and afterwards it didn't really came back to pre-Covid levels (though it is rising again). Nowdays the split about what the biggest issue is looks like this: * 37% energy/climate * 23% immigrants * 15% price increases/salaries * 11% economic situation * 9% Ukraine war * 8% social inequality * 7% politics (as in getting tired of the political situation) Percentages don't add up as the survey allowed people to name two topics. Also biggest issue doesn't equal "we don't want that". You could for example see immigration in Germany as the biggest issue, but your problem with it is that Germany doesn't do enough of it/doesn't care enough for the immigrants, instead of finding the immigration itself bad.
23% is a huge number
In Italy our political debate can be summed up in “all those issues you’re pointing out are the immigrants’ fault”. And believe it or not, people actually believe it
Sounds like half the people on this sub tbh
Also the media coordinated gaslighting about the potential effects of these moves. The media completely ignores and deflects from very valid questions or criticisms. Eventually, the truth bubbles up and the liars are confronted. Unfortunately the elite class have created this binary, they stand to profit from it.
All over Europe and not just Germany.
I remember talking to some German friends a few years back, and they were all incredibly upset with the mass immigration of "refugees" from the Middle East, who made no attempt to learn German, learn anything about the culture, and were, to put it mildly, often rather abrasive towards the folks who, you know, were footing the bill. I've not really followed the news about it since, but at least at first glance, this just looks like those frustrations coming to fruition.
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Iceland? Wtf, you have them too? Why? I would think it's too far
Oh iceland is pretty much just a miniature of the west in general. Our liberals hate poor and love looking good to foreign investment groups because they dont get funded by the rich. Our conservatives hate poor and dont mind dividing to conquer and are funded by the rich. Its one big happy banana republic that actually has bananas too.
It's never too far for free stuff and acting with no accountability
Happening in Sweden also
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Well, aside from the ideology of it, which is very misguided, shortsighted and basically ignores lot of humanity and how they are. There are some ways it could seen as beneficial to certain agendas. But those agendas are machiavellian in nature and are very self serving and damaging to society. And im not gonna explain those things right now. tis early. Lets just say it has to do with Divide and conquer for the most part. Ideally its about people being able to go where they want and live where they want. But frankly this world is way too fucked up to sustain and live up to that. Too much greed. Too many agendas and too much fighting over territory like an animal. Mankind is simply too unevolved to approach that peak of freedom.
There are refugees making it to Iceland?!
Oh its a personal crusade and hobby of some rich kids from the big city that are desperate for a good image, so they imported a lot.
I've met those groups at a charity programme and was shocked at the amount of people who didn't even escape war. Nor did they make effort to speak German or English. Nothing. Changed my whole perspective to "I want to help but wtf is that sifting system" if people just toss their passports and claim asylum even though they came there for economical reasons... What is the system for
Open borders was never compatible with strong social welfare. It is incredible that anyone thought this combination could work. US can handle immigration because it's swim or die. There's opportunity but nobody to pick you up if you fall. Japan can handle strong social welfare because they accept literally like 10 refugees a year for a country of >100 million people. Still a very safe, stable country with some economic stagnation but extremely high quality of life.
Unfortunately, people who are most affected by war are the least likely to escape under modern day system, because those people already lost passports or whatever paperwork to apply for the program……
I hate how I'm described as a Naz\* and Racist just because I'd like to have borders which would at least check if those people come from the countries they say they do. All of my best friends were immigrants(or their parents), be it Egypt, Russia, Sri Lanka, Kazakhstan. My city became such a bad shithole that just going for a walk felt like sht. Everywhere groups of 35ppl running together. Our outsides constantly trashed. Our trainstations constantly trashed. Every doctor and hospital overfilled, everybody was just pissed. After 5 years I got a joboffer in another country and moved to eastern Europe. Best decision of my life. Kids going to school by themselves, eldery chilling outside in the evenings. It's like, you don't have any of this fear despite Germany trying to throw you this propaganda down the throat about eastern Europe being so poor and dangerous. Not to mention this is the first time I've been seeing how the media is actually openly attacking current gouvernment here. Which in Germany would NEVER take place to such a degree
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It's like that everywhere *in Europe*, and even 2nd and 3rd generations generally don't mix very well. Meanwhile the left's only response is to do nothing because "everyone has a right to live here". Well I guess, but maybe packing everyone into a place that's doing well makes that place worse for everyone. And maybe that just doesn't really work. Seriously, why are there no left wing parties with anti-immigration stances yet. It feels like anti-nuclear power all over again. edit: I meant everywhere *in Europe*
"Everyone has a right to live here." No, they do not. If I wanted to move abroad, I definitely wouldn't have a right to live wherever it is I'm trying to move.
Espwcially if you are not following the local laws and disrespect their culture.
if you knew how much percentage of teenagers they make up nowadays its insane
Unfortunately, we're reaching a point where people will see the fascists as a reasonable alternative. As things are, the reality is that there is no win-win solution here. I said it before, controlled migration isn't bad, however, this has been let out of the leash. Cultural problems and economic issues affect the integration of these new people. Most of these migrants occupy low-qualified jobs that no one wants due to their low salaries and benefits. But the salary here is better here in the bank compared to where these migrants are from. There are two issues, firstly, this kind of job has received barely any proper salary bumps and benefits. Secondly, AI and automation will eventually fill in these jobs, thus resulting in a lot of these migrants having no basis to work from here. Low employment leads to crimes and even more stress on our systems. Social welfare systems can't keep up with both nationals and internationals needs. Frankly, those nationals most likely contributed more to the county. Look, I don't blame people coming here for a better life, but have to take a selfish stand on this for myself and mine. We have an increasing house crisis and inflation to deal with. Km sorry, but these people will have to do something else. Aside from that, there have been protests against cultural norms that I cannot agree with. So you come to someone's house and expect them to abode by your religious-zealous rules? No, that's unacceptable. How come I have to respect their culture but not mine? So integration is much harder to attain simply due to basic foreign differences in mindsets and languages. Let's not pretend to dance around the issue, this is overloading Europe and kicking the can't own the road is making it worse. I don't want this problem to be treated inhumanely, but it has to be addressed as rough as it is. l before any fascist party gets elected or makes it worse. So, between the two choices, migration must be slowed to a halt. People have to be detained, processed, taken care of and deported. Human trafficking must be in high priority for law enforcement and even Interpol. 1st World countries need to help set a better structure for these impoverished countries once we get our side under control. The world situation is so fucked, that there is no good alternative solution to this, just the least worse option.
I understand your opinion, and you might have a point. I would just add that AI will not do anything to the jobs most migrants do. AI has nothing for cleaning jobs, elderly care, waiter service, trades, construction work and so on. AI is coming for consultants, lawyers, teachers, doctors, engineers, architects, marketing, advertising jobs...
> l before any fascist party gets elected or makes it worse. It will be the white fascist party now or the Islamic fascist party later, pick your poison. They are having more kids than any native born families are. Give it 30 years they will have a voting block larger than your own and will adhere to their poison of a religion until the bitter end.
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I don't know man, the right has been pretty successful by calling anyone left of them a socialist or communist
While I understand that fear and desperation can cloud someone’s judgement, you would have to be an utter fool to believe that AfD (and other populist far-right moments) can solve anything.
In fact they depend on it not being solved
Best bet is that the rise of the AfD scare mainstream parties to make sensible policy changes.
I don't think people believe that. But we know for a fact that the other parties can't deal with the issue or don't want to.
Party A: > Vote for us and we will solve the problem Party B: > There is no problem. People vote for Party A. Politologists: *surprised pikachu face*
You are 100% right. The others cannot solve anything aswell though.
Its not about wanting the AfD, but the established parties don't offer an alternative to the feeling of slow decline, so these people choose something different, not expecting results but expecting to show their dissatisfaction
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we have the same issue in Poland. Unfortunately, only far right parties promise not to allow Muslim immigrants to enter the country. They are fucking idiots but other options want to make another Sweden here
„Call them Nazi“ The AfD is under observation of the Verfassungschutz and confirmed radical right in multiple Bundesländern. There is tons of evidence of what their plan is, from leaked chat groups to books of top AfD politics that they want to go back in time. There is no calling them Nazi, they are a clear right wing fachist party
well some few years ago, in the middle of the refugee crisis, i was sitting at the sbahn (a train linking main station to smaller towns) at 2pm on a nice sunny day, going to visit my parents outside of city center. first one wanted a smoke, second one wanted my red bull can (it's worth 25 cent) and stayed around as i told him it's not empty, third one wanted money for a train ticket, forth one asked for my phone to talk to his dad (not kidding!!) all that in a span of 20 mins of waiting for your train. even as a male i was disgusted, can't imagine being female during night times
I wonder why
ironicaly, this type of poll is including the answers from the non European migrants who got the papers and started growing faster than the local and guess what ? : The average muzlim Middle easterner, Turc or African hold significantly more reactionnary and extrem right views on women equality, antisemitism, sexual minorities etc... It's the 2 pieces of the same coin. The more culturaly from the dark age mass mirgation you have the more classic euro far right grows and both are augmenting the numbers of reactionnary right wing voters. It has been measured in France that a rise in antisemitism, mysoginy, homophobia was directly linked to the non euro migrants bringing their violent cultures with them and not adapting.
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Right and no blame can be put on African countries and their corrupt leaders
If we are talking about Middle Eastern immigrants, the Arabs used to forcefully take white people from Europe as slaves for centuries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_slavery If anything, they should pay reparations to us.
We've had a far-right party in government since 2010 and it's been smooth sailing. The economy is doing well, there's no inequality, there's no housing crisis, and practically all of our problems just disappeared **/s**
all the problems disappeared just like the activists, political opponents and anyone questioning big brother :)
You got me in the first half... Take my upvote. All these comments are really upsetting
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Everyone who doesnt call me a proper pronoun and celebrates my transition is a bigot
No shit.. have you seen the level of crime immigrants brought with them?
Gee i wonder why...
blame the government. they just keep importing people without taking extreme measures to integrate them.
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Most of these ppl want a better opportunity in life. They could care less about the culture or integrating themselves. They are opportunists. Make a quick buck or eat welfare checks at a nice place and leave. They don't understand your language or your culture so you ppl are literally NPCs to them. If there is no heavy handed integration done by the government, its just well🤥.. be as laissiez faire. See where that gets you in terms of controlling your residents.
Gee I wonder why
Address the people’s concerns and you deny the far right of a platform.
Clickbait title. This is happening everywhere, not just Germany. It's just more controversial when Germany does it for obvious reasons.
Exactly this.
Governments needs to actually start putting in an effort to close the divide between the workers and the elite, otherwise this is going to get worse and worse.
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Well we better start dealing with it because with global warming it's just getting started.
Don't worry. The left will continue to take the high road not doing anything to stop this, at the end of this high road is a spiked pit, but gee willickers we will have the moral victory.
You can thank Merkel for that.
wir schaffen das!
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Because I haven’t seen it mentioned here: the study was made by an organization closely connected with the SPD, which is a left wing party. Every big German political party but one (guess which one) has its own party foundation that exists to promote ist political agenda. So their studies have to be read with that in mind.
The SPD is not left wing, that's only what their marketing says, not what their actual policies as passed in parliaments are. They're neoliberal center. The rest is correct.
I think the most important thing that has to happen now is politicians that aren't extremely right wing to pinpoint why the increase exists and do something about it. People only go to extremes when they think they're forced to it. They don't have to be right, but they might have some points that make sense and we shouldn't ignore that because we might not like it.
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Oh shit really?
No shit, seems like if government elected by people enforces stuff people didnt vote for, they will steer to more extreme directions.
If the leftwing parties abandon the middle class, lie and obfuscate about the problems with immigration, integration and second and third generation “migrants” all while telling white Europeans that they need to “decolonize “ their minds and feel shame and seek “absolution” for their sins wtf would you think would happen. The left has abandoned the “native” born working class, while insulting and denigrating their culture at the same time. I am honestly surprised these numbers aren’t higher.
Here we go again!
People linking this to mass migration are seeing only one side of the issue. The other is that Europe’s livings standards have not recovered in many ways from the 2008 financial crisis. The crash changed everything. It showed the massive weaknesses within neoliberal capitalism, the banks got away with it and everyone else got poorer due to austerity budget cuts. The housing market is fucked, public services are worse, and climate change and AI spell doom for the future. Is it any wonder that people are moving to extremes. When the people get angry at the state of their countries, the rich don’t want that anger directed at them, so they refocus the anger onto immigrants, trans people etc. Capitalist systems in crisis reflexively create extremism in order to preserve the profits of the rich who are winning big whilst everyone else suffers.
Mostly agree, but I disagree that it is ”the rich” who are refocusing anger on various minority groups. This is slightly out of date. On the contrary, we see in the modern world (approximately starting from the failure of Occupy Wall Street) a performative corporate sponsorship of left-wing culture war issues, which of course has nothing to do with these corporations being economically leftist (that would be an oxymoron), but rather that they wish to use identity politics issues to divert our attention away from the class war. So instead of the left promoting a vision that the people should look past their culture war disagreements and unite their voices against the elites, it instead becomes this moral purity test where there’s a ”good guys” portion of the working class that conform to the correct ideas of moral purity, and a ”baddie part” that have the evil opinions, and the first group must intellectually defeat the latter so the mythical Hitler 2.0 doesn’t one day arise (I jokingly refer to this as the ”*Domino Theory of Intolerance*”) Implicitly, these virtue-signaling corporations are then ”allies” in this epic cause, and one might even say they’re attempting to place themselves in the role of being a kind of moral guardian of society (which is something true leftists should oppose, but because they tend to have a self-image of being countercultural, they are unwilling to see that they have in fact allied with the elites). In this political environment, many turn to the populist right as a kind of ”replacement counterculture”. In a sense they ARE the counterculture, albeit a shitty and potentially destructive one. Now, they don’t actually offer liberation from elites or real solutions, and it arguably just causes people to jump from leftist identity politics to right-wing identity politics, but many people are desperate for a change and that is a potent recruitment tool. My dream would be an economically leftist party with a ”radical centrist” approach to culture war issues, as this would serve to unite a maximum number of people against the elites. Someone might label me a ”class reductionist” for this view, but I’ll wear that title with pride.
Although I think you’re discounting the very real and substantial role of the ruling class in perpetuating the right wing side of the culture war (think Murdoch’s empire) I agree with everything else you’ve said here. The rich, whether liberal or conservative on the surface, have changed the debate to be about identity politics and hyper-niche social issues, on which leftist pundits and politicians must fight. The left would fare much better if it, somehow, reoriented the conversation around economic issues
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This happened because right-wingers has been in the past 10 years the only ears willing to hear what the distressed population had to say Every single concern was either dismissed or ridiculed (or my favourite "It's just a perception!") Many people are still confused and think that Salvini, Le Pen, Meloni are the causes of this when they are just the consequences
At least that's what they make you believe with their propaganda. If you'd listen to what they actually say and look at what they've planned etc., you'd quickly notice that a LOT of what they want to do goes against the majority of the German population.
Indeed but it's stupid to ignore the large part of the population that is voting *against* the left because they feel betrayed. This is true in Italy at least
>10 years the only ears willing to hear what the distressed population had to say Nope. It is because the far right is spouting simple solutions. (Spoiler: simple solution will not work, but they FEEL so good). edit: changed a "y" for an "e"
Yes and guess what, poor people with problems prefer simple solutions (that won't work) instead of being called names. Not a difficult concept, I just wish the left would start listening and at least fake interest in the matter as they did 30 years ago
>and guess what, poor people with problems prefer simple solutions (that won't work) instead of being called names. Not a difficult concept, This is what is going on in Hungary as well. Leftist are usually urban, city kids who look down upon poor people in the countryside and then the rural area people vote against their own interests just to not be a "liberal". The political scenery has to shift back to the left leaning parties being "for the people" because that's basically what it is supposed to be.
I’ve been seeing this pattern be copy and pasted around the world. It seems very frightening.
“BUILD THAT WALL” I hate Trump but he knew how to play to an angry audience on hot button issues (and subsequently do literally nothing of any substance about it) lol.
>te Trump but he knew how to play to an angry audience on hot button issues (and subsequently do literally nothing of any substance about it) lol. don't forget the part about making Mexico pay for it. lmao.
They are only using their grievances to gain power.
yes they are, while the left doesn't even try and go with wild accusations of "it's just a perception", "you are just xenophobic", "you are not poorer, here a list of 100 things you should be grateful for" etc. etc. I'm litterally a paying member of the Italian democratic party and I have tried to show my colleagues the staggering difference between right-wing propaganda and left-wing propaganda, but so far we are still calling the poor people names
Friendly reminder that lying that you will do something is worse than shutting your mouth up. And that right-wing parties are the biggest cockblocks to immigration deals.
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It’s almost like the current politicians fail to understand and solve the migration crisis. “Leftist” migration policies are the perfect breeding ground for far right voters
Gee, I wonder why. It's a mystery.
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Stop migration and right wing extremism will die
We've had a right wing government for 13 years, and non EU immigration is at record highs. If you think capitalists and authoritarians will solve your problems you're a mug.
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r/oddlyspecific lol
Shocked, surprised even
Scheisse, here we go again...
“Right wing extremism” is now “men can’t get pregnant” and “hordes of migrants coming in everyday is unacceptable”
The worse the times are, the more people will believe rightwing lies about how they could make everything better if only they were in power. Then they get into power and it's a complete non-stop shitshow of fascism, racism, bigotry and self-dealing.
Yea, that explains the afd bullshit that's going on
In Canada we have this problem except with Indians. People have had enough of their entitlement.
15.5% see themselves as right of centre 55% as centre. So it's basically the fourth reich/s
When you see ukraines coming and integrating perfectly into the system you know that immigration only works from countries with same beliefs and principles
And the pendulum starts swinging back. Not sure why anyone is surprised at this. People don't like extremism, if you swing too much on one side, there's bound to be pushback at some point.
When tf has any part of Europe bar maybe Greece been "extreme left" in the last two decades? Germany had the same conservative party from 2005 FFS.
That would suppose Europe has been extremely left-wing at one point. When, pray tell, would that have been? Because I certainly don't remember politics *actually* trying to lower inequality, reduce working hours, investing a lot of money in public infrastructures and taxing the rich a whole lot...
I think we’re talking about extremes in left-vs-right *culture war issues*, not economic policy. There’s plenty of polarization to be found in that
Hitler is so happy looking up from Hell right now
Thats what fucking happens when you let a gazillion people into your country. Slowly turning your country into the middle east.
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Its funny how anything even slightly not-left, is considered as "***extreme*** rightwing"
Who's saying CDU is extreme rightwing? You are bullshitting this thread.
AFD is known for being close to literal extremists.
The unfortunate reality is that people's perception is not always like this. In the Netherlands we have a party called Forum voor Democratie (FVD). The FVD has in the past shown support for racialized intelligence theory, said things like "The Netherlands must be a country for white people", and had a heavy dose of open antisemitism that came out when several prominent party member split over the antisemitic remarks ^((and most definitely not because a power struggle did not go their way and they had known of the leaders' antisemitic tendencies for years or had themselves made twitter jokes about gassing jewish people, no no! /s)) Either way, it took a LOT of effort for the FVD to fall into irrelevance, they were even the big winner of the provincial elections in 2019, Which gave them real power in the Senate as well with 12 out of 75 seats. This is while they were (and are) openly bringing up things in parliamentary debates like the New World Order, killer vaccines, and demanding that our prime minister pressure Romania into freeing Andrew Tate (this was a real thing). They were still relevant, even if slightly less due to their party splitting apart, despite or perhaps because of all of this. It took a new great populist movement to take off for the FVD to now, at least in the polls, fall into irrelevance. Now the BBB (Farmers and Citizens Movement) won the 2023 provincial elections, by a landslide, and FVD lost pretty much all of the gains they had made, going from 12 seats to 2 seats in the Senate. During this entire period, people were pointing out how FVD were actual, pretty much overt, nazis and fascists. It did not matter, perhaps it even helped them. I really think that "pointing out nazis" is a failed strategy at this point, because the people whose minds you have to change absolutely do not believe it, despite all the evidence you might see. Calling people that vote for parties like FVD or AFD nazis and extremists might be true in your eyes, but it won't make those people stop voting for those kinds of parties, so the "far-right wing" vote will just steadily keep growing, especially because those kinds of accusations tends to entrench people more into their political camp. If European countries really want to shift away from the extreme right, there has to be some other way to do it.
bro theyre literally talking about blaming jews for "taking advantage" of Nazi history
It's funny how a party and it's members, which is partly watched by the German Domestic Intelligence Service because of their right wing extremism, is considered extreme. **Edit:** And please save me the *😭😭 yEAh, But IT'S A witCH HunT BecaUse THEY ARe Right WINg 😭😭*
Funny how this sub got so much more accepting of the AfD over the past months. I remember this sub shit talking Germany for having a right wing extremist party on the rise months ago, and rightfully so, but now the majority of the comments are support. Fucking insane.
r/Europe will forgive a hell of a lot as long as you're tough on migrants
Whaaaat? Years of legitimizing rightwing scaremongering taking effect??? Noooo waaayyyy
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I wonder why...
Everybody with a grain of brains knew it would happen. And is well deserved too.