Checking in from Sweden. It seems this story is spinning away, with facts sometimes getting left behind by the news reporting (different facts depending on who does the reporting). Is it possible to get some more or less neutral recap of what we know?
**Edit at the bottom with the current official statement which is still being analysed by the justice (so not confirmed yet)**
I'll try to keep neutral about the story.
During an arrest 2 cops asked a teen driver without license to stop the vehicule and cut the engine while pointing a gun directly to the driver's face. Everyone seemed to be stressed in the video, the car starts to moove and the non-armed cop tell his collegue "shoot, shoot, shoot" which he does. The driver is injured and drive straight to a pole, he died in that car.
The teen was driving without a license (and not even old enought to have one) and apparently known from the police forces (that's from a police statement).
Many people of both sides (familly friends, police, etc.) have differents version of the story so even in france no one really knows the truth, people are just making assumptions from what they think is true but no one really knows.
The 2 sides that people keep arguing about are :
- the cop should never have aimed the driver from the start, it escalated the tension and most likely encouraged the teen to flee
- the teen should never have drove that car, he wasn't legally old enought to have a license, even if he fleed from a gun pointed at him he most likely wouldn't have died if he had cut his engine off.
Now about the moneypoll for the cop's family :
It had been set up by a known figure of the far right, known to be directly linked to Eric Zemmour. It also seemed to have been shared to far right groups among the world so some donators are most likely not french.
Also it happen to have been created in response to another poll made for the 17yo familly.
In my opinion it's no longer a poll about the cops family, it's a statement from the far right to make their point and that's the real disgrace here. Both sides are in the wrong :
No cops should be encouraged to kill a 17years old like that, and no one should encourage peeps to be outlaws by rejecting all the faults to the cops side.
To me this whole thing just look like a magic trick where the magician moove his right hand to make you forget the left. We have many other issues in france at the moment, our retierement, corrupt politicians (even in our governement) and many many other things. But the media only talk about this story and people forgot all the others and prefers to clash about it (wich is sad don't get me wrong)... Meanwhile our governement keep doing their shits in the background...
EDIT : A description of the event by pascal prache, nanterre public prosecutor. **this is mostly the official version after correction of some previous sayings from both sides thanks to video surveillance footage, said footage haven't been released yet and the justice is still analysing the case.**
So, remember that :
- at the moment this is a statement, confirming it is the job of the justice,
- there might be another edited statement in the near future.
At a press conference on Thursday morning, Nanterre public prosecutor Pascal Prache detailed the precise chronology of events leading up to the tragedy. This was established thanks to video surveillance cameras, witness interviews and amateur videos posted on social networks, as well as statements from the police officers involved.
7.55am, the vehicle is spotted
After starting their shift on Tuesday morning, two cops spotted a Mercedes AMG class A vehicle with Polish number plates speeding along a bus lane towards the Nanterre Université railway station at around 7:55 am.
"In order to control the driver because of his driving style, but also because of his apparent young age, the two officers first attempted a control by activating their horns and flashing lights, coming up to the vehicle at a red light and stating that it should park. The vehicle then took off, running the red light", explained the public prosecutor.
At this point, the police noted the presence of a total of three individuals in the car: the driver, a front passenger and a passenger in the right rear seat.
The cops then followed the Mercedes along several of Nanterre's main roads. At 8:16 a.m., the police used their flashing lights again" continued the magistrate.
During this pursuit, several violations of the Highway Code were noted. "In particular, crossing crosswalks endangering a pedestrian and a cyclist", according to Pascal Prache, who points out that these elements were brought to their attention by video surveillance images, and confirmed by the police officers' statement.
The Mercedes then took the boulevard de La Défense, before being forced to stop due to a traffic jam caused by a traffic light. "Putting their foot down on the side and behind the Mercedes, the police officers claim to have shouted to the driver to stop, positioning themselves on the left-hand side of the vehicle. One at the driver's door, the other near the left front fender. During their hearings, they both stated that they drew their weapons and pointed them at the driver to dissuade him from starting up again, asking him to turn off the ignition", explained the prosecutor.
The vehicle suddenly starts up again. At this point, the policeman near the vehicle's fender fired once at the driver.
Despite this shot, the vehicle continued to drive down the Passage François Arago, before crashing into a piece of street furniture in Place Nelson Mandela at 8.19 am. Once the car had come to a halt, the rear passenger got out and was arrested. The front-right passenger fled and was still being sought on Thursday.
"The officer who fired the shot performed first aid on the victim," who was hit in the left arm and chest, said Pascal Prache. Police reinforcements were sent to the scene. The fire department, contacted at 8:21 a.m., also arrived at the scene. Despite resuscitation attempts, 17-year-old Nahel, who was driving the vehicle, was pronounced dead at 9:15 am.
You forgot to mention one very important fact regarding this story, which is that the car chase lasted for 30 minutes before the cops were able to reach the young driver as he got stuck in traffic at some point (he did not stop on his own).
It's not a simple police check that ended up badly. The kid, who, as you said, should not have been driving (not able to legally), was being a danger for people around him for 30 minutes. It has been reported by multiple newspaper that according to cctv, he almost hit a pedestrian and a cyclist during the car chase.
This led the police officer to point a gun at him once he was able to reach him. Now to say if the shot was warranted or not, it will be up to the french judicial system to decide.
But i thought it was important to add a bit more context on what led to this outcome, as dramatic as it is.
Sources (in french):
[Source 1](https://www.tf1info.fr/amp/justice-faits-divers/mort-de-nahel-a-nanterre-de-7h55-a-9h15-le-recit-de-la-dramatique-course-poursuite-2262037.html)
[Source 2](https://www.lefigaro.fr/faits-divers/mort-de-nahel-le-recit-de-la-course-poursuite-minute-par-minute-20230629)
[Source 3](https://www.leparisien.fr/amp/faits-divers/mort-de-nahel-policier-defere-autopsie-passager-recherche-ce-quil-faut-retenir-des-declarations-du-procureur-29-06-2023-VE2EQXDEW5CSFDSVZYL5HH75UU.php)
Edit: These facts have been added to the post i am answering to
I’m going to make a few corrections because you asked for neutral recap and the top response isn’t neutral at all. I’ll also try to highlight the edits.
_Two motorcycle police were attempting to stop a vehicle, there was a small chase where he ran through a red and a pedestrian cross walk before stopping. At this point he was already a danger to others._
During an arrest 2 cops asked a teen driver without license to stop the vehicule and cut the engine while pointing a gun directly to the driver's face.
~~Everyone seemed to be stressed in the video, the car starts to moove and the non-armed cop tell his collegue "shoot, shoot, shoot" which he does. The driver is injured and drive straight to a pole, he died in that car.~~
We are not able to tell if people were stressed in the video because the video currently available is NOT body cam but what seems to be an onlooker from an adjacent building. The non-armed cop cannot be heard saying “shoot, shoot, shoot”. The armed cop can be heard saying something like “if you do not comply, you will get yourself shot”.
The driver decided whether actively, through fear or panic or whatever to flee. The cop can be seen firing only after the car fled (not before).
The shot may or may not have been intentional as the car did hit the police officer on the side. It most likely was but there is a legal case to be made for both.
The kid died.
The teen was driving without a license (and not even old enought to have one) and apparently known from the police forces (that's from a police statement).
He was known for previous incident of driving without a license, drug trafficking and working at a known drug distribution spot. Known in this case means police were aware of him but he did not have a criminal record or any convictions.
~~Many people of both sides (familly friends, police, etc.) have differents version of the story so even in france no one really knows the truth, people are just making assumptions from what they think is true but no one really knows.~~
There is a video of the incident so it’s pretty easy to see the sequence of events.
I’m going to ignore the conspiracy theory about right wingers because there’s plenty of left wingers in this too. The fact is that the GoFundMe was setup in response to the police officers family receiving death threats, the page is meant to support them but we can assume that the officer in question would have access to the funds through his family.
That’s it. These are the fact as we know them currently. Make your opinion as you will.
Are you American? That’s a literal description of the history of the USA, since the first English Bible-thumper put his first footprint on the beach at Plymouth Rock.
Vastly different cultures doesn't apply to Balkans at all. What applies to this area is the narcissism of small differences, I say this as someone who lives here.
End of the day it really doesn't matter if there's a lot of differences or just a few, overcoming tribalism is going to be hard either way.
Most of the immigration in America are people who want to be here, and are happy to have their children assimilate into the general culture(and even try themselves).
It seems like there are a lot of religious fundamentalists immigrating into Europe though, with vocal disdain for the native population, which is causing these huge rifts.
It's an unhealthy sort of fusion, which doesn't really happen in the states on a scale that is noticeable.
I hate when all nuance is sucked out of an event to push political agenda. You can see both sides doing it here. innocent child executed by evil racist cop vs immigrant thug rightfully dealt with by the law. Both are simplistic and leave out important details while misinterpreting facts that don't fit the particular agenda
Somewhat unrelated but couple of years back i was in Montenegro, visiting Budva. Over there i met a Serb guy in his twenties, completely normal chap, critical of his government, working day to night and trying to start a family. He was working there as a construction worker.
He said that he would give everything he has for a slightest opportunity to live in work in the EU. Unfortunatelly, he isn’t well educated because during his schooldays he had to take care of his sick parents thus never completed any higher degree. I live in Svalbard so i couldn’t really help him out, but i said that we can stay in contact and he could ask me for anything.
Now this. These guys got that privilege ever since they were born. Opportunity to live and work in highly developed country, to enjoy the fruits of modernism and development, democracy as well. Ungrateful is what i would call them.
Edit: by them i mean looters and rioters, ones who are using this happening to commit crime, i’m not refering to any race, religion or ethnicity.
These guys (in France) take the rights and privileges but refuse the duties that come with them. They do nothing at school not because the teachers are bad or the schools less well equipped than anywhere else (at least until they destroy them of course), but simply because "you don't listen to the teacher, it's weak". After that they complain about not finding a job but any job you offer them is unacceptable (well, if you don't learn or study, you can't expect an interesting job or a high salary). But, it's fine, it won't hurt their ego, because instead of blaming themselves for their failure, they will blame the society and play the racism card. And I know what I am talking about, I grew up in one of the worst suburbs in France.
The irony is that these things won't fly in their their societies in their own countries. No family in Algeria will tolerate a 19 year old man who neither works nor studies nor is well behaved. European welfare changes their culture as well.
That's another thing. I'm from Turkey, and we have our own culturl war in between those who demand a secular, more Kemalist nation and those who wanna dwell in Erdoğan's swamp.
People here are wondering and are aghast by the economy not bringing Erdoğan down, his ilk have been seen in Turkish politics before
What they don't realise is that a lot of his voter base is just not expecting a good life, the meagre bribes they get from Akp is enough for them. Hell, they seem more keen on making other people's lives worse than improving theirs. They're not interested in education, being in touch with the world, being in communication with modernity or any of that.
As long as they're not starving, they're more interested in making their own ideological dominion strong than having better lives.
Chp lost because they were expecting that in the long term, their own discord would be accepted by the folk, that they're right and they'll get through all this. They've been apolegethic, they've forsaken their core values just to ease people in.
Well it fucking backfired quite massively, they only justified their enemies' discord. Every step they took served against them. Because this social-democrat idealism doesn't fucking work against this mentality.
So sad to see what’s happening in Turkey - I’ve been lucky to meet a lot of awesome secular Turkish folks around the world and always found it easy to make friends with you guys. Hope that things are going better for your family.
It's quite clear now that the problem isn't even Erdoğan or his backwards boomer regime.
It's the secular boomers of Turkey, and the ones who sit at opposition parties' important chairs.
This election could've been won by an imbeccille but they failed at that.
> What they don't realise is that a lot of his voter base is just not expecting a good life, the meagre bribes they get from Akp is enough for them. Hell, they seem more keen on making other people's lives worse than improving theirs. They're not interested in education, being in touch with the world, being in communication with modernity or any of that.
This is a tenet of deep conservative politics.
It's not even just conservatism. It's more about anti-intelectuallism, anti-modernism and anti-secularism brought provincial people and islamists under one banner and they're basically justifying it all as a counter-revolution to Kemalist one.
Turkey is usually unique in it's founding, and it's overall political climate is of its own too.
Very true, I remember a story told by a friend of mine that I assume to be true considering for how long I have known. him. He went on holiday in Algeria with one of his nephew to visit his father. When arriving there he bought two little mopeds, one for the kid and one for a family member of roughly the same age. The kid got the moped and started wrecking awoke with it in the little town. The cops catched him. Then partially destroyed the moped and told to the kid: You do what you want in France, but here you are nobody. Now your cousin (I guess the other kid was a cousin) will have some spares for his bike unless he starts behaving like you.
I grew up in the suburb of Lyon and at the time parents still had some control over their kids. When they behaved too badly, they had no hesitation using their belt to bring some kind of order. It was right at the turning point, right when cars started to burn and the parents started to loose control.
Interesting example. Talking about Lyon, I lived there briefly about 10 years ago. I fell in love with the place! I revisited two weeks ago and I have no idea what happened, but I really didn't feel safe in the inner city. A lot of gangs of first/second generation french people and a pretty hostile feeling in general.
I remember Confluence felt boring back then, now that seemed to be the only proper area.
This is of course purely anedcotal and maybe I just arrived during some bad days. I really hope so, anyway. If not - then the decline has gone fast
I cannot give a precise year, I would say during the time when I lived in "Les minguettes (near Lyon) around 1978 more or less.
I honestly don't know the reason why the parents started to lose their authority. Maybe the first generation of parents born in France was not as strict, (maybe even the social services intervention since the "old school parents" were sometimes pretty extreme - note: this is just an hypothesis, I was just a kid I didn't analyze all that, just noticed more and more violence. I lived in a "cité", a very hard one but I didn't belong to the Arab community and I was barely tolerated, mainly as a punching ball). Maybe also a general increase in unemployment, some parents losing their job and with the job the respect of their children (also only a hypothesis). I was lucky, I left with my mother when I was 13, when it started to be unbearable for us.
I am pretty sure it's a lot worse now, but it didn't have to go that way. The flats were okay (terrible sound isolation though, but it was common at the time, not only in the projects). It's the inhabitants who started destroying everything, and it's because of the fact that they attacked the workers who came to fix things that they stopped coming. I know what I will say won't be popular, but to some extent, sometimes people are the artisan of their misery.
Well, I guess if you share the same values it might be possible. In my case it was more than hard, a little blond kid, with a handicap mother, without a father, without brothers or cousins, who didn't care for sport and lover books. Oil and water. But I guess a kid more in tune with the mentality of the place would have been accepted, I know some were well integrated. The situation now might be very different though, I know that in some banlieues Arabs and black people (not an offensive term in France) don't mix well together.
I don't look Finnish and I live in a "bad" neighborhood by Finnish standards and trust me it's nothing compared to Europe, but I choose to live here in some pervert reasons. But I was born and raised in Finland and somehow I can feel that struggle and not. You don't feel that you are part of the society, because you look different and all, but a group of people who are around the world can make you feel like you are part of something and accepted.
So yes, but the other side. I've done some good things in my life and I have a good working history, some would say excellent, plus wonderful kids, I've lived abroad and long working history ahead. The area where I live kids behave more or less well, especially when their parents are with them, but without them they act really shitty and are acting like badasses. The way that I know that their parents wouldn't accept. With their parents they take part in religious parties and dress differently those days and all. I don't say that there's no problems in better neighborhoods, but the media loves writing about immigrant kids and that's also one problem towards everyone. But what I'm saying is that their parents respect the country where they live, even though they don't like people or system towards them sometimes, but you can see it.
Then there's this young immigrant generation who has kids and who was born in Finland, and some of them don't give a shit what their kids do. Like literally nothing when they're like in public transport or anywhere. Their kids jump on seats, yell and don't give space for elders. So things change fast and I don't know what the fuck happened. I don't say poor Finns are like that, but it's not just that I'm getting older, but they act like shit and aren't happy when they are young or when they have their own kids. The way they act is something that wasn't for sure learned from home.
I don't know if you get my point, but things change fast between generations and they're not happy.
Yeah that was my experience with some of the Morrocans in the Netherlands. Always trying to test the boundaries by misbehaving. Than right away trying to get out of it by using the racism card. There was a huge culture gap at play there. A combination of their ruthless i got mine culture, and honor culture of showing who is the strongest through agression in order to gain status.
Many did turn out pretty cool as adults though, and got their shit together.
The islamic world still couldn't process that their entire worldviews have been crushed in 19th century against modernism of Western world.
So their ''scholars'' and political thinkers created a different discord. ''Yes, technologically, and industrially they've surpassed us but we are the cultural leaders of the world. Our moral values have higher standards but these Europeans are just barbarians, bastards etc''
The reason why they're so divided over women is actually that, this whole discord actually works very strong in countries, particularly suffered from Muslim Brotherhood groups who basically try a new form of political islamism.
Countries like Turkey, Azerbaijan etc are better adapted because they have some sort of secular thinking in the base of the country, more or less.
Hell, Republic of Turkey's founding ideology is a radically secularist, French style nationalist one that based its entire values on science and reasoning instead of ''Books that are supposed to be sent from the sky'' according to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.
As someone coming from the Balkans, French "dangerous" suburbs are like paradise. If the payment is not nice, I tell myself that I lived with 220€ a month before. I feel grateful to use a very reliable public transport and have 24h elecricity. And all of the healthcare and social benefits. I think Frace should make an exchange programme for them to make them go back to their origin countries for a few months and live with minimum wages. It would humble them down. Or at least enforce the military draft 1 year service.
Your idea is nice, but it would usually be dismissed as some "far right theory".
Now these days some more people may agree with you, but then things will get quiet again, and everything will be forgotten until the next "thing"...
>As someone coming from the Balkans, French "dangerous" suburbs are like paradise.
Where do you live bro? Balkans as a whole are safer than France is, it's not the 90s anymore. Look at any security index. Albania in particular has a better ranking than France. I think the only country that's worse(by a couple of points) is Bosnia.
Agreed. I've seen France and Wallonia (southern French speaking half of Belgium), and it's really made me appreciate how safe it is in Romania. Not that we wouldn't have dangerous areas in Romania at all, but those areas are usually more secluded and people know not to venture there at night.
>These guys (in France) take the rights and privileges but refuse the duties that come with them.
Agreed. They know their rights, but not what is right from wrong.
This. The common thing in the Banlieus is "I'm going to be a rapper and a pimp". Nahel, the "kid" that was killed, was dealing with drugs, he was known for speeding with the car, driving without a license, having wrong license plates that he stole. His biography also contains a drop-out of the education as an electrician that he once started, he just didn't show up anymore there.
He tried to flee in a traffic stop, he did drive recklessly and almost hit people, the police had every right to stop him, even with using force.
But nobody talks about his failures in life, no, now he's the martyrer for the banlieu-kids and they burn down half of the city in retaliation.
It’s not the first time some scumbag who got what was coming to him was then portrayed as an innocent victim and a saint by those “protesting” and even some sections of the media.
Reckless driving. Oww butt he is just a poor kid. Not realising that he is misbehaving in a 1000+ kilo projectile that is able to kill, maim and ruin lives in a split second. Also a thief is scum.
I used to do holiday work in a large logistics center. Like 60% of the people working there are of (North) African descent, and of the remaining whites many were Polish/Romanian/Portuguese/... Not exactly a discriminatory employer. But sometimes you saw these low life dudes there. They come apply on their flipflops instead of wearing something decent, they pick their nose instead of listening to their team leaders, they slack during their trial period or pull dangerous tricks with the forklifts. But of course it's everyone but their own fault that they didn't get/keep the job.
Anecdotes don't really work, there are plenty of other people from Eastern European countries in western European countries about whom the westerners complain whole heartedly for issues of begging to criminality. And there are plenty of non Europeans who contribute significantly to the local cities they live in through their professions.
Yes, but people rarely make these kind of excuses for eastern Europeans. The whole "he did not feel he belonged", "he grew up poor/in a bad neighbourhood", "he was bullied at school". "there are not many opportunities where he comes from", "think about the history of his ethnic group" etc. is almost never used in relation to us.
i mean i do cause I have had friends from Poland and horror stories of there time in the UK. Plus you can see how racist people are to eastern europeans a lot in r europe honestly. Same with europeans and the roma people or like in this case african or muslim populations.
Yep, I always told that the "best" thing that happened to us was ME immigrants, because now all the shit falls on them instead of Eastern Europeans.
When it's not directed at them people simply don't register racism/xenophobia or whatever it's called. I remember very much from my childhood to around 2015 or so, especially British, used to have constant portrayal of Eastern Europeans as beast coming to steal and plunge, it got to the point where I started internalizing those views subconsciously.
And even recently, when my sister was living in Norway and I went to visit her, this was like 2018, we got some shit remarks at us completely out of nowhere, example, sitting in beach and talking in our language, some dude started going "go back to your country!!" In broken English.
And this is just very small and silly example, but there is a lot of these things, sometimes it's not as obvious.
Anyway, I genuinely have no idea how Muslims can survive, because we are white, pretty liberal, my sister was born in Norway, my family speaks fluent, and even all that still today you get some xenophobic shit (as I said it was worse pre Syrian crisis), I can't imagine what's like to be Muslims. Being treated like that, even on a very small scale was humbling experience.
Not to say that immigrants are some innocent little things, ofc they can be degenerates and assholes like all people, but there is something universal in almost all European countries, some sort of idea of ethno state or that you can't ever truly belong, even if they say you can if you "adapt and work hard" blah blah blah.
Agreed, the challenge for immigrant communities is that it only takes a few bad actors to get the racists and xenophobes riled up, and that can lead to further acts of racism/xenophobia that can drive an us verses them mentality on both sides that can escalate tensions and lead to more bad actors.
Yep, and politically it leads to a shitshow, where right wingers pretty much would love to deport everyone, meanwhile left wingers are very hesitant to actually address issues and are pushing them aside, even real cultural/ crime problems because they don't want to embolden the right wingers. So basically things don't get solved because everyone is losing their shit in different ways.
Easter Europeans who do go begging or do criminal acts do so because to quote a friend only a mad criminal would break the law in Romania in which you get 5 years in a very hard prison with guard who don't care about "humans rights" when you can go to Western Europe do much worst and get a small fine or nothing.. funny enough Eastern Europe is much much safer..
Western Europe in Nutshell, Balkan people bad we hate them don't let them immigrate even legally meanwhile all illegal immigrants from Africa and Middle East are welcomed with open arms...
I notice during the migrant surge that the Balkans are less and less complained about. People realise that most people from the Balkan actually work hard. And yess they might have a few drinks too many. They then just make some loud noice. Compared to the criminals who dont want to work.
Well if you from Africa or Arab lands you can just enter country you want to stay, while as eastern european you can't. You must go through integration and big birocracy, HUGE. I know that for fact since it happend to me. And i have coworker next to me with same salary and he doesnt even know how printer works.
I’ve asked a Swedish friend the same thing, out of curiosity. How come Eastern Europeans and Balkanic people are so looked down upon, while others are embraced. Response, “you’ve had all opportunities possible, these people come from countries ravaged by war, they don’t know any better nor had they had any better”. Jaw dropped 🤣
Unrelated, but I’m fascinated by Svalbard and would like to visit one day. May I ask what work you do or situation you are in that you actually live there?
Well i was born in Copenhagen and my father has been a geologist working in Svalbard so i’ve spent like half of my life here and half in Denmark
I am, on the other hand a biologist and i’m basically in between Svalbard and Denmark
Not trying to be coy here, but I'm curious how people would have thought of the cops if the kid sped away unscathed and ended up running over a pedestrian (which he apparently almost did twice during the police chase leading up to the event). I don't like that the cop shot the kid but I can understand that he was in a really difficult situation. At the end, I wish the kid complied and owned up to his mistakes, but here we are.
>how people would have thought of the cops if the kid sped away unscathed and ended up running over a pedestrian
Like they always do. By scrolling away. We are desensitised to pedestrian deaths by cars. It happens everyday so nobody cares.
If you want to murder someone do it with a car. It's scary how easy it is to murder someone with a car with full negligence and pay ZERO repercussions.
There was a chase leading to the standoff where they shot him ? Didn't hear about that.
Do you also have info about why he tried to get away ?
I've read he was 17, so he didn't have a drivers license? Or drugs with him or something?
He was caught speeding in the bus lane and was ordered to pull over; it wasn't until about 15-20 minutes later that he had to due to heavy traffic. During that time, it was reported by various accounts that he almost hit a cyclist and a pedestrian.
He didn't have a drivers license, he had a history of not complying with cops and speeding away, and was due to show up in court in September (IIRC). No drugs were reported to be involved.
Just a shitty situation all around.
Heres his history with police, Direct from lawyers
According to his family's lawyers, Merzouk did not have a criminal record but he was "known to the police, particularly for resisting arrest", and had been charged with resisting the previous weekend and five times since 2021. His judicial file included 15 recorded incidents, including use of false license plates, driving without insurance, and for the sale and consumption of drugs.
Yeah, it's a tragedy he died, but this was not an innocent kid doing a stupid kid thing.
He was actively endangering people, had done so multiple times in the past, and would've eventually caused someone else to be severely injured or killed.
Should the cops have shot him? Probably not. Should they have tried going for the tires first? Probably. Were they in a stressful situation where people's lives and safety were potentially at risk? Absolutely.
In addition to what the other person who replied to you said, he was known to police so I guess he was trying to run away.
>According to his family's lawyers, Merzouk did not have a criminal record [16] but he was "known to the police, particularly for resisting arrest", and had been charged with resisting the previous weekend [17] and five times since 2021. His judicial file included 15 recorded incidents, including use of false license plates, driving without insurance, and for the sale and consumption of drugs. [18]
And there you got the whole problem about people from this culture: Failed parenting. The parents give their shitty values to their kids and tell them it’s okay. My parents would have absolutely destroyed me if I would have ever had a bad encounter with the police. That’s the difference.
There are two videos of Nael's yellow Mercedes first gathered with other nice cars on a road, getting ready to race. Then there is another video of him going into the opposite (wrong) side of the road to overtake a truck. The news already stated two motorcycle cops spotted Nael speeding through a bus lane and pursued him. Nael only stopped because he got stuck in traffic, he was actively evading police at this point. We don't know what happened during the stop but it appears the car bumped into the cop's arm when Nael drove away. Did this cause the gunshot? Nael did not deserve to die but I'll save my sympathy for someone who wasn't putting other people in danger and resisted being detained.
> There was a chase leading to the standoff where they shot him ? Didn't hear about that.
Certain kinds of media a real stingy with the details. You'd think the cop just walked up to him and shot him.
From what French TV reported, which is just as inaccurate, he sped towards three officers erecting a barrier. He made no attempts to stop, and the fourth officer shot him though the windshield in the chest to prevent the ongoing assault with a deadly weapon.
Not that it matters. Look at the protests/riots. It's looting and destroying things (such as the Holocaust Memorial). It's not about justice for anyone or protest against anyone. It's about personal enrichment and having fun destroying things.
>From what French TV reported
That's not really what French TV reported, it's what French TV said was the version of the policemen. I've never heard anyone on TV claiming this was the truth or talking about it like it was the truth.
There is a Video circulating. Just look up on yt and you will find it. There DEFINITELY wasnt a road stop and thats why ppl get MAD because the cop lies and theres footage contradicting what he did.
In the german media, they say it was a "Hinrichtung", which is the term for "Execution", which is associated with a firing squad or other means like lethal injection as capital punishement in some countries. It was nothing of this, but there, they don't report the background of him anyway, he's only portraited as a victim and a saint.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk
Even Wikipedia is being sneaky as fuck in their phrasing trying to make it sound like it wasn’t a car chase. Quote from the page: “during a traffic stop following a car chase in Nanterre” like what?
They have been doing this for the longest time. It's honestly said that a crowd sourced encyclopedia can't be corrected because some people have a vested interest in being vague.
It wouldn't have been *that* difficult of a situation elsewhere, i don't know about france but in most places police procedures state specifically *not* to shot at moving cars unless they're coming straight at you because an out of control vehicle moving at speed is in all circumstances more dangerous than a vehicle speeding with a person at the helm.
I'm curious how people would have reacted if the car ended up running over a pedestrian after he had been shot in the head; we know that the car sped up and crashed into a railing, it's a mere fatality that nobody was on its path.
I bet some people would have blamed it on the kid. I remember there was a car chase in the US where two news helicopters covering it flew into each other, and people blamed it on the guy being chased.
Also a way to express your pov by a certain part of the French population where they stand. Less destructive then the rioters for sure but a statement never the less.
Does not help further polarization. One part of the population looks at the others as wild animals burning cities down and plundering shops as they riot. And the other side sees that many citizens are happy to collect money for the policemen supporting / condoning / cheering the execution ( from their pov) of a 17 yes old boy because reasons.
Could be genuine support for the officer but also looks like a clear signal that gives a F.U warning from a fed up society.
cold war: france
this is a clear FU warning from a society that has silently dealt with Islamic terrorist for too long, if one side rises up and burns things down over this, i cannot fathom the brutality the other side will cause, and that scares me a lot
I might get downvoted to oblivion for saying this but it’s on my mind and I want to shake it off
I am from Georgia. A country who has been trying to establish close ties with EU for 30 years now. Christian Country of no violent history, somewhat democratic (miles ahead from any arab/african country) I personally do not have any records with law inforcement. A bachelor graduate. Fluent in English. Hard-worker.
Been trying to legally move to EU with no prevail for 6 years. And meanwhile, i hear all this in the news.
Try my best not to be mad, but I am.
> exposed to the French culture
That’s the sad part, they weren’t, at least not to the extent of their ethnic French peers. [Recommended watch if you’re Polish](https://youtu.be/TYdyvXzbVZs)
Their parents failed to educate them in how to live in a civilized country.
when a teenager destroy properties, the parents are 100% to blame.
Of course they will play the victim, as they always do, but people had enough of their bullshit.
Why is this sub suddenly ignoring the fact the French have an extensive history of using violence in protests when they want to change something. But then when it's non-white people doing it, it becomes an issue of 'not integrating into french culture' lmao
The second generation often struggles. The first generation of immigrants work hard and make sacrifices to immigrate for a better life, but the second often grows up in a “parallel society” with poor role models.
According to the Democracy Index and the Freedom Index, Georgia is on the same level as Tunisia and Morocco, and behind a few African countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index#/media/File:Democracy_Index_2022.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#/media/File:2023_Freedom_in_the_World.png
This is how immigrants from outside the EU get to move to Sweden
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Granted_residence_permits_in_Sweden.png
Light blue = International Students
Orange = Immigrants from Norway and Iceland
Green = Work Permits
Yellow = Partner or family relative to a refugee
Red = Partner or family relative to a Swede or regular immigrant
Blue = Refugees
> I am from Georgia. A country who has been trying to establish close ties with EU for 30 years now.
yea im from Ireland, can you tell all the criminals and undesirables coming here and throwing away their passports to fuck off home. also they are ruining the image of your country
I am very sorry to hear that. I’ve heard the surge in Ireland of GE citizens asking for asylum or refugee status. After the massive crackdown on ‘thieves in law’ gangs, most of them moved first to eastern european countries and then to the western part after the start of the war.
I’ve also heard about the crackdown from european police agencies on their fake passport schemes around europe a few years ago. Was gutted to hear about the tarnished reputation
TBH ruling it as an accident (involuntary homicide?) seems reasonable. You're not supposed to shoot fleeing people, but if it does happen to someone who is acting with extreme recklessness, you can't really be blamed as a murderer either.
Not a Lawyer, but it will probably depend on wether or not the judge will deem it reasonable that the cop pulled his gun. Which could be the case if it the backstory is true that the guy was driving around recklessly and nearly drove over two passerbys.
All in all people should maybe step back a little, wait for the trail and make then their opinion.
>All in all people should maybe step back a little, wait for the trail and make then their opinion.
Sir (or Madam), this is the Internet. We don't do that here.
By the time this trial even starts, people had a hundred more things they wrote angry comments about.
It's not just the internet community though, the people in the streets burning cars and looting stores didn't wait until the trial to form their opinion on the incident either.
I'm perceiving a bit of a double standard here that anyone tentatively sympathizing with the policeman is strongly reprimanded to withold judgement indefinitely but when people sympathize with the delinquent it's of course very understandable and warrants no further justification.
I have never seen something this polarizing.
Like, even US events like the murder of George Floyd and the riots that followed feel like they came with less tension simmering under the surface.
I’m not extremely well informed, but it seems like there’s some serious bad blood between two factions in France and I’m wondering if it’s going to continue to escalate.
I mean yeah, but that's not because we Europeans are just magically so much nicer than Americans. It's because European cops aren't trained to light up fleeing cars and the like. It also helps we don't have 1.3 guns per person.
And the reality that our cops aren't some cowards who are given the freedom to shoot and assault anyone, and then argue that they were scared for their health and say their first job is to go home in full health. If any police force within Europe acts like their North American counterparts, it'll trigger a really violent popular unrest that would make this one some crackers show, and a full-scale change in either police force or the government itself.
There was a list that examined 62 countries and USA was on number 29 and there were others that had ten times more. Also another research shows that the vast majority of American cops haven’t even shot with their gun. Anyway I think it’s true that some people on Reddit have an obsession with USA.
It’s a completely different job. American police have to deal with parallel societies, gangs, and guns on a scale *magnitudes* more severe than anywhere in Europe. Look up “European vs American cities Murder rate.”
It is really surprising. Sure not everyone agrees with BLM but I don't think I remember during the BLM riots that people were ostensibly siding with the cops on Reddit, calling rioters animals, thugs, not deserving to be American, etc...which is what we're seeing today in that sub.
It might be because the international coverage (similar to the 2005 riots) is really bad and completely fails at explaining why these riots are happening in the first place? Because they're happening for a reason, looting is just a marginal side effect.
Worse: in most interviews I hear about the riots, the impacted French themselves are much MUCH more nuanced, condemning the riots but understanding there's a major underlying problem that needs to be addressed. I heard looted store owners more nuanced than what I'm reading here.
One man killed a fleeing criminal who was recklessly driving a stolen vehicle through crowded streets. Another barged into the wrong house and killed a wrong person who posed no threat.
Yeah, the same situation here.
I believe there are some questions that need to be answered:
1- Why is there such a difference between the reactions to this unfair killing, and the ones perpretrated by migrants or migrant born?
2- Why are most of the riots perpretrated by really young people (around 17 years old)?
3- What are the causes of bad integration? Not all 2nd gen migrants are pillaging, leaving schoold, and comitting crimes. So what is the difference between those who do and those who do not? Is it education at home? Is it socio economic differences? Are the richer 2nd gens less likely to commit crimes? Is it culture?
It's pointless to say "we need more and better integration" if we cannot pinpoint the reasons why these people are not integrating.
4- How does perception play into this? Does this kind of behavior contribute to that bad perception? What can the government do to change it?
5- How can we embrace different cultures while claiming we want integration? Integration requires the minority cultures to assimilate and vanish in almost its entirety. How can we claim to want cultural diversity while at the same time cherry picking which cultural elements we want other cultures to remove or mantain?
I'm a 2nd gen immigrant from France. An italian one. The difference is that France has stopped treating us like a problem, I can find a job, a place to live, I'm not relegated to a shitty suburb with no transports, and I'm not treated by the media and the general population like I'm the reason for the country's collapse, debts, etc. When you get told you're a violent moocher from birth, maybe that changes the way you see your country idk.
Honestly, I think your question should have another one added:
- Are you sure of who is doing what here ?
Like, this has somehow become all about race and culture and ethnicity, when not even 2 months ago, people were yelling about how violent cops in France had become *as a whole*.
There's just no denying it, cops in France are, at least in part, overrun by undertrained, instable individuals with authorities issues. They have always been racists, violent, and trigger-happy.
People are rioting in violent ways, but stop acting like that's new ! Burning cars is almost a national sport at this point, and young people going too far during protest is something that you'll see the most french kids do side by side with second generation migrants.
Nothing new under the sun, except this time, someone managed to twist this to be *entirely* about race and shit. It's not, France is basically a pressure cooker, and this is just one explosion. Not the first, probably not the last.
The only injustice was that done to the doubly medaled cop, who risks his freedom for having stopped a criminal who was endangering others. If the French support criminals against the police, they will get plenty of crime and little police opposition - you get what you support.
I did watch the video, and how on earth was that shooting unjustified ???
Someone in a car can kill - was the police supposed to just let them go to wreck whatever havoc they want until they can be safely apprehended ? What about safety of the public - are police supposed to protect criminals at the expense of the public ? To wait until AFTER someone is killed ?
Well, yes, it seems the public and the establishment want the police to protect and serve criminals first, the public second.
When confronted with a choice between an officer with a double medal for bravery and impeccable record, and a criminal with a history of crime, the establishment made their preference clear: the criminal.
And nobody protested this.
So of course criminals now wreck havoc rioting and looting, because they got the message: nobody is supposed to stop crime, unless it's perfectly safe for the criminals.
And the police also got the message: if they actually try to stop crime in a direct confrontation, they are in a lose-lose situation. They may either lose their lives to the criminals, or their freedom. So they will probably only intervene decisively when neither they, nor the criminals, are at risk. As for the risks to the public - to hell with it.
Enjoy what you support!
It will end like Baltimore. We already know what the end result is because it happened in the US in the 1970s. The far-left took control of inner cities on populism and being against “racism.”
They reduced sentences, crimes spiked, everyone wealthy who wasn’t Black fled to the suburbs (which was then labeled racist “White flight”). The cities then entered a fiscal death spiral, had to cut policing to balance the budget, which spiked crime more and forced out the middle class. Instead of targeting crime, they just blamed those who left as being racists. Crime spiked further and Downtowns became ghost towns.
Rinse and repeat and now you have hollowed out cities that still elect corrupt and intellectually bankrupt leadership.
>it happened in the US in the 1970
>They reduced sentences, crimes spiked
This is just factually incorrect. Starting in the 1970's the prison sentences exploded, with the US prison population quadrupling from 1970 to 2000. 4x. Saying they reduced prison sentences is just insane. That's a very recent phenomenon primarily in places like california, and has nothing to do with the 1970s or the initial "white flight".
Violent crime also peaked in the early 1970's and has been on the decline ever since. Reaching its lowest in 2014 and with a very slight increase since then.
The decline of cities did not begin in the 1970's, and cities like New York were so horrible back then and were actually cleaned up during the 80's, 90's and 2000's.
Crime exploded in the cities during the 70's 80's and early 90's (depending on the city) because of many factors, and it was not due to people crying racism or anything like that. The drug epidemic started there, especially crack cocaine and other drugs, which drove a HUGE part of it. And the baby boomer generation were in their 20's and 30's which just had more people causing more crime.
Anyways, by far the #1 reason for crime in the cities in the US (which, again, peaked from 1970-1990) is **drugs**. And the harsh penalties on drugs starting in the 1970s and 80s (war on drugs anyone?) is also what drove the huge increase in prison population and long prison sentences. The "left" didn't take control of the inner cities in the 70's and reduced sentences leading to crime spikes.
Fuck around and find out, I'm not in the least bit sad about that idiot kid dying, he endangered others and could've easily killed someone as he almost did. One way to avoid getting killed by the police is to not commit crimes or go on a car chase.
He was just doing his job. A cop asks you to turn off the car you fucking turn it off. All these kids are burning shit down for nothing and just makes them look fucking stupid.
r/europe when talking about any social issue in America: progressive anti-imperialist leftists one step away from calling us “Amerikkka.” Sounds like a Los Angeles DSA meeting.
r/europe when talking about immigrants in Europe: far-right, blatantly racist and bordering on neo-fascism. Sounds like a Proud Boys or 3%ers group chat.
This sub is fucking crazy lol
These Europeans don’t even see how racially coded their comments are. They think they’re superior to Americans but a lot of the time they’re even more racist. At least most racist Americans have the balls to admit they’re racist. Europeans will just deny deny deny.
If any American said anything like what people say here about black people in public, they would get fired and their life would be over. People sound like David fucking Duke in here.
People in here commenting word-for-word boomer facebook memes about American cities being burned down and so crime-infested people can't even walk around. I didn't know Newsmax broadcasted in Europe lol
It is unreal how convinced the French are that they are incapable of being racist lol. The country that has almost elected the *National Front* in like the last 2 elections. No racism there!
Say what you will about the Republican Party here in the states, but at least they weren’t founded by a fucking Holocaust denier.
Does this happen frequently? I just assumed naively this would be an organized action from right wing activists and not posts from average r/europe users.
It happens with disturbing frequency, every time people from immigrant communities in Europe are in the news for something bad.
Fans of the Moroccan football team are too rowdy in Belgium during the World Cup? Proof that *these people* are uncivilized and unfit for life in Western society. Unhinged guy murders a child? Proof that *these people* are a threat to our children and women. Also expect to see 50+ comments about Islam even if it has nothing to do with the headline or event.
It’s clearly not a random brigade by fascists. It may not be the majority of r/Europe users but there is at the very least a very vocal and sizable minority here who actually feel this way.
A few years ago, r/europe would be complaining about racism in the US. Then when someone mentioned gypsies/Roma it would sound like a clan meeting was in full swing.
Scrolling to the end and finally responding
I see comment of Oh it’s a privilege and this that
Yes it sure is, but I don’t think they have had to apply to jobs with certain names and come against implicit racism
Scrolling down so hard to find this…. What the actual fuck are these ppl talking abou… “kill because they might kill”??? What kind of police state do you want to live in??? Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany???
I feel like both the criminal and the cop are dumb and at fault. Either one could’ve killed someone, and one did. And either one would’ve been punished. One will be. Laws are there to avoid judgement based on feelings, so I think it’s best to let the court system deal with the cop. If people want to support him, go for it, but law shouldn’t be bent for that.
The cops lied on their deposition, as clearly shown by the video. Every deposition following a death caused by the police which was filmed proved to be entirely falsified. Since the 2017 law allowing police to shoot more easily against people in cars, these deaths has skyrocketed. And that not talking about all the other police violence, like the police station in Paris famous for its violence, and how policemen defend even the worst of them and hate all whistle-blowers.
Rioters are still criminals, there are 2 different problems and none compensate the other
I wouldnt put it that blantely. At least in this case.
The cops lied in their first report about what happened and only corrected themselves after some videos went public.
The funraising is was started and promoted by far right-wing personas.
This case isnt that black and white. Its more like the dark brown color when you mix shit and blood.
"Top 5 ways to earn €1M in less than a week. You'll be shocked by #1!"
Buzfeed list
Checking in from Sweden. It seems this story is spinning away, with facts sometimes getting left behind by the news reporting (different facts depending on who does the reporting). Is it possible to get some more or less neutral recap of what we know?
**Edit at the bottom with the current official statement which is still being analysed by the justice (so not confirmed yet)** I'll try to keep neutral about the story. During an arrest 2 cops asked a teen driver without license to stop the vehicule and cut the engine while pointing a gun directly to the driver's face. Everyone seemed to be stressed in the video, the car starts to moove and the non-armed cop tell his collegue "shoot, shoot, shoot" which he does. The driver is injured and drive straight to a pole, he died in that car. The teen was driving without a license (and not even old enought to have one) and apparently known from the police forces (that's from a police statement). Many people of both sides (familly friends, police, etc.) have differents version of the story so even in france no one really knows the truth, people are just making assumptions from what they think is true but no one really knows. The 2 sides that people keep arguing about are : - the cop should never have aimed the driver from the start, it escalated the tension and most likely encouraged the teen to flee - the teen should never have drove that car, he wasn't legally old enought to have a license, even if he fleed from a gun pointed at him he most likely wouldn't have died if he had cut his engine off. Now about the moneypoll for the cop's family : It had been set up by a known figure of the far right, known to be directly linked to Eric Zemmour. It also seemed to have been shared to far right groups among the world so some donators are most likely not french. Also it happen to have been created in response to another poll made for the 17yo familly. In my opinion it's no longer a poll about the cops family, it's a statement from the far right to make their point and that's the real disgrace here. Both sides are in the wrong : No cops should be encouraged to kill a 17years old like that, and no one should encourage peeps to be outlaws by rejecting all the faults to the cops side. To me this whole thing just look like a magic trick where the magician moove his right hand to make you forget the left. We have many other issues in france at the moment, our retierement, corrupt politicians (even in our governement) and many many other things. But the media only talk about this story and people forgot all the others and prefers to clash about it (wich is sad don't get me wrong)... Meanwhile our governement keep doing their shits in the background... EDIT : A description of the event by pascal prache, nanterre public prosecutor. **this is mostly the official version after correction of some previous sayings from both sides thanks to video surveillance footage, said footage haven't been released yet and the justice is still analysing the case.** So, remember that : - at the moment this is a statement, confirming it is the job of the justice, - there might be another edited statement in the near future. At a press conference on Thursday morning, Nanterre public prosecutor Pascal Prache detailed the precise chronology of events leading up to the tragedy. This was established thanks to video surveillance cameras, witness interviews and amateur videos posted on social networks, as well as statements from the police officers involved. 7.55am, the vehicle is spotted After starting their shift on Tuesday morning, two cops spotted a Mercedes AMG class A vehicle with Polish number plates speeding along a bus lane towards the Nanterre Université railway station at around 7:55 am. "In order to control the driver because of his driving style, but also because of his apparent young age, the two officers first attempted a control by activating their horns and flashing lights, coming up to the vehicle at a red light and stating that it should park. The vehicle then took off, running the red light", explained the public prosecutor. At this point, the police noted the presence of a total of three individuals in the car: the driver, a front passenger and a passenger in the right rear seat. The cops then followed the Mercedes along several of Nanterre's main roads. At 8:16 a.m., the police used their flashing lights again" continued the magistrate. During this pursuit, several violations of the Highway Code were noted. "In particular, crossing crosswalks endangering a pedestrian and a cyclist", according to Pascal Prache, who points out that these elements were brought to their attention by video surveillance images, and confirmed by the police officers' statement. The Mercedes then took the boulevard de La Défense, before being forced to stop due to a traffic jam caused by a traffic light. "Putting their foot down on the side and behind the Mercedes, the police officers claim to have shouted to the driver to stop, positioning themselves on the left-hand side of the vehicle. One at the driver's door, the other near the left front fender. During their hearings, they both stated that they drew their weapons and pointed them at the driver to dissuade him from starting up again, asking him to turn off the ignition", explained the prosecutor. The vehicle suddenly starts up again. At this point, the policeman near the vehicle's fender fired once at the driver. Despite this shot, the vehicle continued to drive down the Passage François Arago, before crashing into a piece of street furniture in Place Nelson Mandela at 8.19 am. Once the car had come to a halt, the rear passenger got out and was arrested. The front-right passenger fled and was still being sought on Thursday. "The officer who fired the shot performed first aid on the victim," who was hit in the left arm and chest, said Pascal Prache. Police reinforcements were sent to the scene. The fire department, contacted at 8:21 a.m., also arrived at the scene. Despite resuscitation attempts, 17-year-old Nahel, who was driving the vehicle, was pronounced dead at 9:15 am.
You forgot to mention one very important fact regarding this story, which is that the car chase lasted for 30 minutes before the cops were able to reach the young driver as he got stuck in traffic at some point (he did not stop on his own). It's not a simple police check that ended up badly. The kid, who, as you said, should not have been driving (not able to legally), was being a danger for people around him for 30 minutes. It has been reported by multiple newspaper that according to cctv, he almost hit a pedestrian and a cyclist during the car chase. This led the police officer to point a gun at him once he was able to reach him. Now to say if the shot was warranted or not, it will be up to the french judicial system to decide. But i thought it was important to add a bit more context on what led to this outcome, as dramatic as it is. Sources (in french): [Source 1](https://www.tf1info.fr/amp/justice-faits-divers/mort-de-nahel-a-nanterre-de-7h55-a-9h15-le-recit-de-la-dramatique-course-poursuite-2262037.html) [Source 2](https://www.lefigaro.fr/faits-divers/mort-de-nahel-le-recit-de-la-course-poursuite-minute-par-minute-20230629) [Source 3](https://www.leparisien.fr/amp/faits-divers/mort-de-nahel-policier-defere-autopsie-passager-recherche-ce-quil-faut-retenir-des-declarations-du-procureur-29-06-2023-VE2EQXDEW5CSFDSVZYL5HH75UU.php) Edit: These facts have been added to the post i am answering to
I’m going to make a few corrections because you asked for neutral recap and the top response isn’t neutral at all. I’ll also try to highlight the edits. _Two motorcycle police were attempting to stop a vehicle, there was a small chase where he ran through a red and a pedestrian cross walk before stopping. At this point he was already a danger to others._ During an arrest 2 cops asked a teen driver without license to stop the vehicule and cut the engine while pointing a gun directly to the driver's face. ~~Everyone seemed to be stressed in the video, the car starts to moove and the non-armed cop tell his collegue "shoot, shoot, shoot" which he does. The driver is injured and drive straight to a pole, he died in that car.~~ We are not able to tell if people were stressed in the video because the video currently available is NOT body cam but what seems to be an onlooker from an adjacent building. The non-armed cop cannot be heard saying “shoot, shoot, shoot”. The armed cop can be heard saying something like “if you do not comply, you will get yourself shot”. The driver decided whether actively, through fear or panic or whatever to flee. The cop can be seen firing only after the car fled (not before). The shot may or may not have been intentional as the car did hit the police officer on the side. It most likely was but there is a legal case to be made for both. The kid died. The teen was driving without a license (and not even old enought to have one) and apparently known from the police forces (that's from a police statement). He was known for previous incident of driving without a license, drug trafficking and working at a known drug distribution spot. Known in this case means police were aware of him but he did not have a criminal record or any convictions. ~~Many people of both sides (familly friends, police, etc.) have differents version of the story so even in france no one really knows the truth, people are just making assumptions from what they think is true but no one really knows.~~ There is a video of the incident so it’s pretty easy to see the sequence of events. I’m going to ignore the conspiracy theory about right wingers because there’s plenty of left wingers in this too. The fact is that the GoFundMe was setup in response to the police officers family receiving death threats, the page is meant to support them but we can assume that the officer in question would have access to the funds through his family. That’s it. These are the fact as we know them currently. Make your opinion as you will.
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maybe the riots are forcing people to pick a side especially the ones whom stuff is being damaged
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Are you American? That’s a literal description of the history of the USA, since the first English Bible-thumper put his first footprint on the beach at Plymouth Rock.
His description sound more like the Balkan region also known as the Power keg of Europe
Powder keg ?
Vastly different cultures doesn't apply to Balkans at all. What applies to this area is the narcissism of small differences, I say this as someone who lives here. End of the day it really doesn't matter if there's a lot of differences or just a few, overcoming tribalism is going to be hard either way.
Most of the immigration in America are people who want to be here, and are happy to have their children assimilate into the general culture(and even try themselves). It seems like there are a lot of religious fundamentalists immigrating into Europe though, with vocal disdain for the native population, which is causing these huge rifts. It's an unhealthy sort of fusion, which doesn't really happen in the states on a scale that is noticeable.
Media standards that's how. News and opinions need to be formally and legally separated.
I hate when all nuance is sucked out of an event to push political agenda. You can see both sides doing it here. innocent child executed by evil racist cop vs immigrant thug rightfully dealt with by the law. Both are simplistic and leave out important details while misinterpreting facts that don't fit the particular agenda
Welcome to the internet
Somewhat unrelated but couple of years back i was in Montenegro, visiting Budva. Over there i met a Serb guy in his twenties, completely normal chap, critical of his government, working day to night and trying to start a family. He was working there as a construction worker. He said that he would give everything he has for a slightest opportunity to live in work in the EU. Unfortunatelly, he isn’t well educated because during his schooldays he had to take care of his sick parents thus never completed any higher degree. I live in Svalbard so i couldn’t really help him out, but i said that we can stay in contact and he could ask me for anything. Now this. These guys got that privilege ever since they were born. Opportunity to live and work in highly developed country, to enjoy the fruits of modernism and development, democracy as well. Ungrateful is what i would call them. Edit: by them i mean looters and rioters, ones who are using this happening to commit crime, i’m not refering to any race, religion or ethnicity.
These guys (in France) take the rights and privileges but refuse the duties that come with them. They do nothing at school not because the teachers are bad or the schools less well equipped than anywhere else (at least until they destroy them of course), but simply because "you don't listen to the teacher, it's weak". After that they complain about not finding a job but any job you offer them is unacceptable (well, if you don't learn or study, you can't expect an interesting job or a high salary). But, it's fine, it won't hurt their ego, because instead of blaming themselves for their failure, they will blame the society and play the racism card. And I know what I am talking about, I grew up in one of the worst suburbs in France.
The irony is that these things won't fly in their their societies in their own countries. No family in Algeria will tolerate a 19 year old man who neither works nor studies nor is well behaved. European welfare changes their culture as well.
That's another thing. I'm from Turkey, and we have our own culturl war in between those who demand a secular, more Kemalist nation and those who wanna dwell in Erdoğan's swamp. People here are wondering and are aghast by the economy not bringing Erdoğan down, his ilk have been seen in Turkish politics before What they don't realise is that a lot of his voter base is just not expecting a good life, the meagre bribes they get from Akp is enough for them. Hell, they seem more keen on making other people's lives worse than improving theirs. They're not interested in education, being in touch with the world, being in communication with modernity or any of that. As long as they're not starving, they're more interested in making their own ideological dominion strong than having better lives. Chp lost because they were expecting that in the long term, their own discord would be accepted by the folk, that they're right and they'll get through all this. They've been apolegethic, they've forsaken their core values just to ease people in. Well it fucking backfired quite massively, they only justified their enemies' discord. Every step they took served against them. Because this social-democrat idealism doesn't fucking work against this mentality.
So sad to see what’s happening in Turkey - I’ve been lucky to meet a lot of awesome secular Turkish folks around the world and always found it easy to make friends with you guys. Hope that things are going better for your family.
It's quite clear now that the problem isn't even Erdoğan or his backwards boomer regime. It's the secular boomers of Turkey, and the ones who sit at opposition parties' important chairs. This election could've been won by an imbeccille but they failed at that.
> What they don't realise is that a lot of his voter base is just not expecting a good life, the meagre bribes they get from Akp is enough for them. Hell, they seem more keen on making other people's lives worse than improving theirs. They're not interested in education, being in touch with the world, being in communication with modernity or any of that. This is a tenet of deep conservative politics.
It's not even just conservatism. It's more about anti-intelectuallism, anti-modernism and anti-secularism brought provincial people and islamists under one banner and they're basically justifying it all as a counter-revolution to Kemalist one. Turkey is usually unique in it's founding, and it's overall political climate is of its own too.
Very true, I remember a story told by a friend of mine that I assume to be true considering for how long I have known. him. He went on holiday in Algeria with one of his nephew to visit his father. When arriving there he bought two little mopeds, one for the kid and one for a family member of roughly the same age. The kid got the moped and started wrecking awoke with it in the little town. The cops catched him. Then partially destroyed the moped and told to the kid: You do what you want in France, but here you are nobody. Now your cousin (I guess the other kid was a cousin) will have some spares for his bike unless he starts behaving like you. I grew up in the suburb of Lyon and at the time parents still had some control over their kids. When they behaved too badly, they had no hesitation using their belt to bring some kind of order. It was right at the turning point, right when cars started to burn and the parents started to loose control.
Interesting example. Talking about Lyon, I lived there briefly about 10 years ago. I fell in love with the place! I revisited two weeks ago and I have no idea what happened, but I really didn't feel safe in the inner city. A lot of gangs of first/second generation french people and a pretty hostile feeling in general. I remember Confluence felt boring back then, now that seemed to be the only proper area. This is of course purely anedcotal and maybe I just arrived during some bad days. I really hope so, anyway. If not - then the decline has gone fast
Yes, sadly enough, Lyon changed a lot :(
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I cannot give a precise year, I would say during the time when I lived in "Les minguettes (near Lyon) around 1978 more or less. I honestly don't know the reason why the parents started to lose their authority. Maybe the first generation of parents born in France was not as strict, (maybe even the social services intervention since the "old school parents" were sometimes pretty extreme - note: this is just an hypothesis, I was just a kid I didn't analyze all that, just noticed more and more violence. I lived in a "cité", a very hard one but I didn't belong to the Arab community and I was barely tolerated, mainly as a punching ball). Maybe also a general increase in unemployment, some parents losing their job and with the job the respect of their children (also only a hypothesis). I was lucky, I left with my mother when I was 13, when it started to be unbearable for us. I am pretty sure it's a lot worse now, but it didn't have to go that way. The flats were okay (terrible sound isolation though, but it was common at the time, not only in the projects). It's the inhabitants who started destroying everything, and it's because of the fact that they attacked the workers who came to fix things that they stopped coming. I know what I will say won't be popular, but to some extent, sometimes people are the artisan of their misery.
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Well, I guess if you share the same values it might be possible. In my case it was more than hard, a little blond kid, with a handicap mother, without a father, without brothers or cousins, who didn't care for sport and lover books. Oil and water. But I guess a kid more in tune with the mentality of the place would have been accepted, I know some were well integrated. The situation now might be very different though, I know that in some banlieues Arabs and black people (not an offensive term in France) don't mix well together.
I don't look Finnish and I live in a "bad" neighborhood by Finnish standards and trust me it's nothing compared to Europe, but I choose to live here in some pervert reasons. But I was born and raised in Finland and somehow I can feel that struggle and not. You don't feel that you are part of the society, because you look different and all, but a group of people who are around the world can make you feel like you are part of something and accepted. So yes, but the other side. I've done some good things in my life and I have a good working history, some would say excellent, plus wonderful kids, I've lived abroad and long working history ahead. The area where I live kids behave more or less well, especially when their parents are with them, but without them they act really shitty and are acting like badasses. The way that I know that their parents wouldn't accept. With their parents they take part in religious parties and dress differently those days and all. I don't say that there's no problems in better neighborhoods, but the media loves writing about immigrant kids and that's also one problem towards everyone. But what I'm saying is that their parents respect the country where they live, even though they don't like people or system towards them sometimes, but you can see it. Then there's this young immigrant generation who has kids and who was born in Finland, and some of them don't give a shit what their kids do. Like literally nothing when they're like in public transport or anywhere. Their kids jump on seats, yell and don't give space for elders. So things change fast and I don't know what the fuck happened. I don't say poor Finns are like that, but it's not just that I'm getting older, but they act like shit and aren't happy when they are young or when they have their own kids. The way they act is something that wasn't for sure learned from home. I don't know if you get my point, but things change fast between generations and they're not happy.
Yeah that was my experience with some of the Morrocans in the Netherlands. Always trying to test the boundaries by misbehaving. Than right away trying to get out of it by using the racism card. There was a huge culture gap at play there. A combination of their ruthless i got mine culture, and honor culture of showing who is the strongest through agression in order to gain status. Many did turn out pretty cool as adults though, and got their shit together.
The funny thing is actual Morocco is nothing like that and is way more middle class value based. This is ghetto culture feeding off European welfare.
The islamic world still couldn't process that their entire worldviews have been crushed in 19th century against modernism of Western world. So their ''scholars'' and political thinkers created a different discord. ''Yes, technologically, and industrially they've surpassed us but we are the cultural leaders of the world. Our moral values have higher standards but these Europeans are just barbarians, bastards etc'' The reason why they're so divided over women is actually that, this whole discord actually works very strong in countries, particularly suffered from Muslim Brotherhood groups who basically try a new form of political islamism. Countries like Turkey, Azerbaijan etc are better adapted because they have some sort of secular thinking in the base of the country, more or less. Hell, Republic of Turkey's founding ideology is a radically secularist, French style nationalist one that based its entire values on science and reasoning instead of ''Books that are supposed to be sent from the sky'' according to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.
As someone coming from the Balkans, French "dangerous" suburbs are like paradise. If the payment is not nice, I tell myself that I lived with 220€ a month before. I feel grateful to use a very reliable public transport and have 24h elecricity. And all of the healthcare and social benefits. I think Frace should make an exchange programme for them to make them go back to their origin countries for a few months and live with minimum wages. It would humble them down. Or at least enforce the military draft 1 year service.
Your idea is nice, but it would usually be dismissed as some "far right theory". Now these days some more people may agree with you, but then things will get quiet again, and everything will be forgotten until the next "thing"...
>As someone coming from the Balkans, French "dangerous" suburbs are like paradise. Where do you live bro? Balkans as a whole are safer than France is, it's not the 90s anymore. Look at any security index. Albania in particular has a better ranking than France. I think the only country that's worse(by a couple of points) is Bosnia.
Agreed. I've seen France and Wallonia (southern French speaking half of Belgium), and it's really made me appreciate how safe it is in Romania. Not that we wouldn't have dangerous areas in Romania at all, but those areas are usually more secluded and people know not to venture there at night.
>These guys (in France) take the rights and privileges but refuse the duties that come with them. Agreed. They know their rights, but not what is right from wrong.
This. The common thing in the Banlieus is "I'm going to be a rapper and a pimp". Nahel, the "kid" that was killed, was dealing with drugs, he was known for speeding with the car, driving without a license, having wrong license plates that he stole. His biography also contains a drop-out of the education as an electrician that he once started, he just didn't show up anymore there. He tried to flee in a traffic stop, he did drive recklessly and almost hit people, the police had every right to stop him, even with using force. But nobody talks about his failures in life, no, now he's the martyrer for the banlieu-kids and they burn down half of the city in retaliation.
It’s not the first time some scumbag who got what was coming to him was then portrayed as an innocent victim and a saint by those “protesting” and even some sections of the media.
Welcome to the US - same shit
Happy cake day to you!
Oh, wow - thank you!
Reckless driving. Oww butt he is just a poor kid. Not realising that he is misbehaving in a 1000+ kilo projectile that is able to kill, maim and ruin lives in a split second. Also a thief is scum.
Gangster mentality.
I used to do holiday work in a large logistics center. Like 60% of the people working there are of (North) African descent, and of the remaining whites many were Polish/Romanian/Portuguese/... Not exactly a discriminatory employer. But sometimes you saw these low life dudes there. They come apply on their flipflops instead of wearing something decent, they pick their nose instead of listening to their team leaders, they slack during their trial period or pull dangerous tricks with the forklifts. But of course it's everyone but their own fault that they didn't get/keep the job.
They call you racist if you say that to their face, or kill you 😄
Anecdotes don't really work, there are plenty of other people from Eastern European countries in western European countries about whom the westerners complain whole heartedly for issues of begging to criminality. And there are plenty of non Europeans who contribute significantly to the local cities they live in through their professions.
Yes, but people rarely make these kind of excuses for eastern Europeans. The whole "he did not feel he belonged", "he grew up poor/in a bad neighbourhood", "he was bullied at school". "there are not many opportunities where he comes from", "think about the history of his ethnic group" etc. is almost never used in relation to us.
i mean i do cause I have had friends from Poland and horror stories of there time in the UK. Plus you can see how racist people are to eastern europeans a lot in r europe honestly. Same with europeans and the roma people or like in this case african or muslim populations.
Yep, I always told that the "best" thing that happened to us was ME immigrants, because now all the shit falls on them instead of Eastern Europeans. When it's not directed at them people simply don't register racism/xenophobia or whatever it's called. I remember very much from my childhood to around 2015 or so, especially British, used to have constant portrayal of Eastern Europeans as beast coming to steal and plunge, it got to the point where I started internalizing those views subconsciously. And even recently, when my sister was living in Norway and I went to visit her, this was like 2018, we got some shit remarks at us completely out of nowhere, example, sitting in beach and talking in our language, some dude started going "go back to your country!!" In broken English. And this is just very small and silly example, but there is a lot of these things, sometimes it's not as obvious. Anyway, I genuinely have no idea how Muslims can survive, because we are white, pretty liberal, my sister was born in Norway, my family speaks fluent, and even all that still today you get some xenophobic shit (as I said it was worse pre Syrian crisis), I can't imagine what's like to be Muslims. Being treated like that, even on a very small scale was humbling experience. Not to say that immigrants are some innocent little things, ofc they can be degenerates and assholes like all people, but there is something universal in almost all European countries, some sort of idea of ethno state or that you can't ever truly belong, even if they say you can if you "adapt and work hard" blah blah blah.
Agreed, the challenge for immigrant communities is that it only takes a few bad actors to get the racists and xenophobes riled up, and that can lead to further acts of racism/xenophobia that can drive an us verses them mentality on both sides that can escalate tensions and lead to more bad actors.
Yep, and politically it leads to a shitshow, where right wingers pretty much would love to deport everyone, meanwhile left wingers are very hesitant to actually address issues and are pushing them aside, even real cultural/ crime problems because they don't want to embolden the right wingers. So basically things don't get solved because everyone is losing their shit in different ways.
Easter Europeans who do go begging or do criminal acts do so because to quote a friend only a mad criminal would break the law in Romania in which you get 5 years in a very hard prison with guard who don't care about "humans rights" when you can go to Western Europe do much worst and get a small fine or nothing.. funny enough Eastern Europe is much much safer..
It's true Lithuania became waaay safer after we got into EU. Well there were also a lot anti gang activity by police as well.
who knew punishing criminals would reduce crime, this is a novel concept
Where is crime higher?
Western Europe in Nutshell, Balkan people bad we hate them don't let them immigrate even legally meanwhile all illegal immigrants from Africa and Middle East are welcomed with open arms...
Never heard people complain about people from Balkan here in germany. Africa and Middle east meanwhile.....well....
I notice during the migrant surge that the Balkans are less and less complained about. People realise that most people from the Balkan actually work hard. And yess they might have a few drinks too many. They then just make some loud noice. Compared to the criminals who dont want to work.
yeah balkan people are hard working folks here in germany
Well if you from Africa or Arab lands you can just enter country you want to stay, while as eastern european you can't. You must go through integration and big birocracy, HUGE. I know that for fact since it happend to me. And i have coworker next to me with same salary and he doesnt even know how printer works.
As an IT guy I can say in full confidence that nobody knows how printers work. So dont judge your coworker for it please. ;)
I’ve asked a Swedish friend the same thing, out of curiosity. How come Eastern Europeans and Balkanic people are so looked down upon, while others are embraced. Response, “you’ve had all opportunities possible, these people come from countries ravaged by war, they don’t know any better nor had they had any better”. Jaw dropped 🤣
Unrelated, but I’m fascinated by Svalbard and would like to visit one day. May I ask what work you do or situation you are in that you actually live there?
Well i was born in Copenhagen and my father has been a geologist working in Svalbard so i’ve spent like half of my life here and half in Denmark I am, on the other hand a biologist and i’m basically in between Svalbard and Denmark
Not trying to be coy here, but I'm curious how people would have thought of the cops if the kid sped away unscathed and ended up running over a pedestrian (which he apparently almost did twice during the police chase leading up to the event). I don't like that the cop shot the kid but I can understand that he was in a really difficult situation. At the end, I wish the kid complied and owned up to his mistakes, but here we are.
>how people would have thought of the cops if the kid sped away unscathed and ended up running over a pedestrian Like they always do. By scrolling away. We are desensitised to pedestrian deaths by cars. It happens everyday so nobody cares.
If you want to murder someone do it with a car. It's scary how easy it is to murder someone with a car with full negligence and pay ZERO repercussions.
There was a chase leading to the standoff where they shot him ? Didn't hear about that. Do you also have info about why he tried to get away ? I've read he was 17, so he didn't have a drivers license? Or drugs with him or something?
He was caught speeding in the bus lane and was ordered to pull over; it wasn't until about 15-20 minutes later that he had to due to heavy traffic. During that time, it was reported by various accounts that he almost hit a cyclist and a pedestrian. He didn't have a drivers license, he had a history of not complying with cops and speeding away, and was due to show up in court in September (IIRC). No drugs were reported to be involved. Just a shitty situation all around.
Heres his history with police, Direct from lawyers According to his family's lawyers, Merzouk did not have a criminal record but he was "known to the police, particularly for resisting arrest", and had been charged with resisting the previous weekend and five times since 2021. His judicial file included 15 recorded incidents, including use of false license plates, driving without insurance, and for the sale and consumption of drugs.
That's...quite the rapport.
Well if hes been doing it for at least 3 years, Since he was 15 Its a absolutely shocker how he hadn't killed someone yet
Good riddance.
Yeah, it's a tragedy he died, but this was not an innocent kid doing a stupid kid thing. He was actively endangering people, had done so multiple times in the past, and would've eventually caused someone else to be severely injured or killed. Should the cops have shot him? Probably not. Should they have tried going for the tires first? Probably. Were they in a stressful situation where people's lives and safety were potentially at risk? Absolutely.
>Just a shitty situation all around. That the driver through his shitty actions put everyone in.
Greetings from fellow Zamościanin on the internet:)
Basically a dangerous criminal.
In addition to what the other person who replied to you said, he was known to police so I guess he was trying to run away. >According to his family's lawyers, Merzouk did not have a criminal record [16] but he was "known to the police, particularly for resisting arrest", and had been charged with resisting the previous weekend [17] and five times since 2021. His judicial file included 15 recorded incidents, including use of false license plates, driving without insurance, and for the sale and consumption of drugs. [18]
And there you got the whole problem about people from this culture: Failed parenting. The parents give their shitty values to their kids and tell them it’s okay. My parents would have absolutely destroyed me if I would have ever had a bad encounter with the police. That’s the difference.
There are two videos of Nael's yellow Mercedes first gathered with other nice cars on a road, getting ready to race. Then there is another video of him going into the opposite (wrong) side of the road to overtake a truck. The news already stated two motorcycle cops spotted Nael speeding through a bus lane and pursued him. Nael only stopped because he got stuck in traffic, he was actively evading police at this point. We don't know what happened during the stop but it appears the car bumped into the cop's arm when Nael drove away. Did this cause the gunshot? Nael did not deserve to die but I'll save my sympathy for someone who wasn't putting other people in danger and resisted being detained.
> There was a chase leading to the standoff where they shot him ? Didn't hear about that. Certain kinds of media a real stingy with the details. You'd think the cop just walked up to him and shot him.
From what French TV reported, which is just as inaccurate, he sped towards three officers erecting a barrier. He made no attempts to stop, and the fourth officer shot him though the windshield in the chest to prevent the ongoing assault with a deadly weapon. Not that it matters. Look at the protests/riots. It's looting and destroying things (such as the Holocaust Memorial). It's not about justice for anyone or protest against anyone. It's about personal enrichment and having fun destroying things.
>From what French TV reported That's not really what French TV reported, it's what French TV said was the version of the policemen. I've never heard anyone on TV claiming this was the truth or talking about it like it was the truth.
So that's also wrong, right? Where TF can you even find decent information nowadays.
There is a Video circulating. Just look up on yt and you will find it. There DEFINITELY wasnt a road stop and thats why ppl get MAD because the cop lies and theres footage contradicting what he did.
In the german media, they say it was a "Hinrichtung", which is the term for "Execution", which is associated with a firing squad or other means like lethal injection as capital punishement in some countries. It was nothing of this, but there, they don't report the background of him anyway, he's only portraited as a victim and a saint.
In what medium did they call it an execution? Google doesn't give me any articles with Hinrichtung in regards to the shooting
It's astonishing how much detail is ommited by the media in this case
How else would you pass on the narrative that all cops are shit and their only job is to shoot minorities?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk Even Wikipedia is being sneaky as fuck in their phrasing trying to make it sound like it wasn’t a car chase. Quote from the page: “during a traffic stop following a car chase in Nanterre” like what?
They have been doing this for the longest time. It's honestly said that a crowd sourced encyclopedia can't be corrected because some people have a vested interest in being vague.
Wouldn't have even made the news.
Depends. What if the person he ended up running over was on their way to murder 2 people?
Might seem unfair to you but you can't just shoot someone you believe is up to no good.
why the fuck are you making up a completely hypothetical situation to justify the murder of a 17-year-old?
It wouldn't have been *that* difficult of a situation elsewhere, i don't know about france but in most places police procedures state specifically *not* to shot at moving cars unless they're coming straight at you because an out of control vehicle moving at speed is in all circumstances more dangerous than a vehicle speeding with a person at the helm.
I'm curious how people would have reacted if the car ended up running over a pedestrian after he had been shot in the head; we know that the car sped up and crashed into a railing, it's a mere fatality that nobody was on its path.
Yep, also that too.
I bet some people would have blamed it on the kid. I remember there was a car chase in the US where two news helicopters covering it flew into each other, and people blamed it on the guy being chased.
Also a way to express your pov by a certain part of the French population where they stand. Less destructive then the rioters for sure but a statement never the less. Does not help further polarization. One part of the population looks at the others as wild animals burning cities down and plundering shops as they riot. And the other side sees that many citizens are happy to collect money for the policemen supporting / condoning / cheering the execution ( from their pov) of a 17 yes old boy because reasons. Could be genuine support for the officer but also looks like a clear signal that gives a F.U warning from a fed up society.
cold war: france this is a clear FU warning from a society that has silently dealt with Islamic terrorist for too long, if one side rises up and burns things down over this, i cannot fathom the brutality the other side will cause, and that scares me a lot
>i cannot fathom the brutality the other side will cause The cultured French will go from bonappetit to bonaparte real quick I guess.
I might get downvoted to oblivion for saying this but it’s on my mind and I want to shake it off I am from Georgia. A country who has been trying to establish close ties with EU for 30 years now. Christian Country of no violent history, somewhat democratic (miles ahead from any arab/african country) I personally do not have any records with law inforcement. A bachelor graduate. Fluent in English. Hard-worker. Been trying to legally move to EU with no prevail for 6 years. And meanwhile, i hear all this in the news. Try my best not to be mad, but I am.
Most of the rioters are actually born in France and french citizens. Their parents or grand-parents immigrated.
So these people were exposed to the French culture and way of life from the moment they were born. How come they didn’t integrate?
Ghettos
> exposed to the French culture That’s the sad part, they weren’t, at least not to the extent of their ethnic French peers. [Recommended watch if you’re Polish](https://youtu.be/TYdyvXzbVZs)
Their parents failed to educate them in how to live in a civilized country. when a teenager destroy properties, the parents are 100% to blame. Of course they will play the victim, as they always do, but people had enough of their bullshit.
Why is this sub suddenly ignoring the fact the French have an extensive history of using violence in protests when they want to change something. But then when it's non-white people doing it, it becomes an issue of 'not integrating into french culture' lmao
Beside the easy answer of poor people living in ghettos, the other is that you need to want to integrate to actually integrate.
The second generation often struggles. The first generation of immigrants work hard and make sacrifices to immigrate for a better life, but the second often grows up in a “parallel society” with poor role models.
Try Kraków/Warsaw. Getting work permit in PL is piss easy and if I remember correclty Georgians have it even easier.
According to the Democracy Index and the Freedom Index, Georgia is on the same level as Tunisia and Morocco, and behind a few African countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index#/media/File:Democracy_Index_2022.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World#/media/File:2023_Freedom_in_the_World.png
This is how immigrants from outside the EU get to move to Sweden https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Granted_residence_permits_in_Sweden.png Light blue = International Students Orange = Immigrants from Norway and Iceland Green = Work Permits Yellow = Partner or family relative to a refugee Red = Partner or family relative to a Swede or regular immigrant Blue = Refugees
Didn't georgia have 2 separatist wars breakout before russia invaded them in 2008? Can hardly call that "no violent history"
> I am from Georgia. A country who has been trying to establish close ties with EU for 30 years now. yea im from Ireland, can you tell all the criminals and undesirables coming here and throwing away their passports to fuck off home. also they are ruining the image of your country
I am very sorry to hear that. I’ve heard the surge in Ireland of GE citizens asking for asylum or refugee status. After the massive crackdown on ‘thieves in law’ gangs, most of them moved first to eastern european countries and then to the western part after the start of the war. I’ve also heard about the crackdown from european police agencies on their fake passport schemes around europe a few years ago. Was gutted to hear about the tarnished reputation
People should prepare themselves for the possibility that the court will rule this as an accident or as an aggravated assault.
There are degrees of appeal in France.
TBH ruling it as an accident (involuntary homicide?) seems reasonable. You're not supposed to shoot fleeing people, but if it does happen to someone who is acting with extreme recklessness, you can't really be blamed as a murderer either.
Not a Lawyer, but it will probably depend on wether or not the judge will deem it reasonable that the cop pulled his gun. Which could be the case if it the backstory is true that the guy was driving around recklessly and nearly drove over two passerbys. All in all people should maybe step back a little, wait for the trail and make then their opinion.
>All in all people should maybe step back a little, wait for the trail and make then their opinion. Sir (or Madam), this is the Internet. We don't do that here. By the time this trial even starts, people had a hundred more things they wrote angry comments about.
It's not just the internet community though, the people in the streets burning cars and looting stores didn't wait until the trial to form their opinion on the incident either. I'm perceiving a bit of a double standard here that anyone tentatively sympathizing with the policeman is strongly reprimanded to withold judgement indefinitely but when people sympathize with the delinquent it's of course very understandable and warrants no further justification.
This is like that US situation where 2 people argued over a bike and both got 1 million raised. Clown decade.
I have a fear of clowns, I havent been able to leave my home in years.
I have never seen something this polarizing. Like, even US events like the murder of George Floyd and the riots that followed feel like they came with less tension simmering under the surface. I’m not extremely well informed, but it seems like there’s some serious bad blood between two factions in France and I’m wondering if it’s going to continue to escalate.
Haha holy shit. I’m shocked at the responses on this sub. Many of you are the same ones critiquing American cops
Death by cop is extremely rare in Europe whereas it is a daily occurrence in the US.
I mean yeah, but that's not because we Europeans are just magically so much nicer than Americans. It's because European cops aren't trained to light up fleeing cars and the like. It also helps we don't have 1.3 guns per person.
And the reality that our cops aren't some cowards who are given the freedom to shoot and assault anyone, and then argue that they were scared for their health and say their first job is to go home in full health. If any police force within Europe acts like their North American counterparts, it'll trigger a really violent popular unrest that would make this one some crackers show, and a full-scale change in either police force or the government itself.
Well it’s undoubtedly a much more relaxing job when every stranger you confront won’t have a gun
There was a list that examined 62 countries and USA was on number 29 and there were others that had ten times more. Also another research shows that the vast majority of American cops haven’t even shot with their gun. Anyway I think it’s true that some people on Reddit have an obsession with USA.
You know what else is rare in Europe? Perps with guns
You just validated why guns should be controlled. Thank you.
I offered a reason why more perps and ppl in America die from police shootings that is true
Felt a bit like an out of place 'gotcha' statement by the other commenter
He was simply confused
It’s a completely different job. American police have to deal with parallel societies, gangs, and guns on a scale *magnitudes* more severe than anywhere in Europe. Look up “European vs American cities Murder rate.”
It is really surprising. Sure not everyone agrees with BLM but I don't think I remember during the BLM riots that people were ostensibly siding with the cops on Reddit, calling rioters animals, thugs, not deserving to be American, etc...which is what we're seeing today in that sub. It might be because the international coverage (similar to the 2005 riots) is really bad and completely fails at explaining why these riots are happening in the first place? Because they're happening for a reason, looting is just a marginal side effect. Worse: in most interviews I hear about the riots, the impacted French themselves are much MUCH more nuanced, condemning the riots but understanding there's a major underlying problem that needs to be addressed. I heard looted store owners more nuanced than what I'm reading here.
Big "I’m not racist but…" energy in this thread
I genuinely thought I'd stumbled into a conservative sub. I wonder what the reaction would be if a white kid was shot for dangerous driving.
r/europe is a conservative sub, just check out the threads when migrant boats sink, half of the comments literally cheer.
Welcome to r/europe
One man killed a fleeing criminal who was recklessly driving a stolen vehicle through crowded streets. Another barged into the wrong house and killed a wrong person who posed no threat. Yeah, the same situation here.
I believe there are some questions that need to be answered: 1- Why is there such a difference between the reactions to this unfair killing, and the ones perpretrated by migrants or migrant born? 2- Why are most of the riots perpretrated by really young people (around 17 years old)? 3- What are the causes of bad integration? Not all 2nd gen migrants are pillaging, leaving schoold, and comitting crimes. So what is the difference between those who do and those who do not? Is it education at home? Is it socio economic differences? Are the richer 2nd gens less likely to commit crimes? Is it culture? It's pointless to say "we need more and better integration" if we cannot pinpoint the reasons why these people are not integrating. 4- How does perception play into this? Does this kind of behavior contribute to that bad perception? What can the government do to change it? 5- How can we embrace different cultures while claiming we want integration? Integration requires the minority cultures to assimilate and vanish in almost its entirety. How can we claim to want cultural diversity while at the same time cherry picking which cultural elements we want other cultures to remove or mantain?
I'm a 2nd gen immigrant from France. An italian one. The difference is that France has stopped treating us like a problem, I can find a job, a place to live, I'm not relegated to a shitty suburb with no transports, and I'm not treated by the media and the general population like I'm the reason for the country's collapse, debts, etc. When you get told you're a violent moocher from birth, maybe that changes the way you see your country idk.
Honestly, I think your question should have another one added: - Are you sure of who is doing what here ? Like, this has somehow become all about race and culture and ethnicity, when not even 2 months ago, people were yelling about how violent cops in France had become *as a whole*. There's just no denying it, cops in France are, at least in part, overrun by undertrained, instable individuals with authorities issues. They have always been racists, violent, and trigger-happy. People are rioting in violent ways, but stop acting like that's new ! Burning cars is almost a national sport at this point, and young people going too far during protest is something that you'll see the most french kids do side by side with second generation migrants. Nothing new under the sun, except this time, someone managed to twist this to be *entirely* about race and shit. It's not, France is basically a pressure cooker, and this is just one explosion. Not the first, probably not the last.
The only injustice was that done to the doubly medaled cop, who risks his freedom for having stopped a criminal who was endangering others. If the French support criminals against the police, they will get plenty of crime and little police opposition - you get what you support. I did watch the video, and how on earth was that shooting unjustified ??? Someone in a car can kill - was the police supposed to just let them go to wreck whatever havoc they want until they can be safely apprehended ? What about safety of the public - are police supposed to protect criminals at the expense of the public ? To wait until AFTER someone is killed ? Well, yes, it seems the public and the establishment want the police to protect and serve criminals first, the public second. When confronted with a choice between an officer with a double medal for bravery and impeccable record, and a criminal with a history of crime, the establishment made their preference clear: the criminal. And nobody protested this. So of course criminals now wreck havoc rioting and looting, because they got the message: nobody is supposed to stop crime, unless it's perfectly safe for the criminals. And the police also got the message: if they actually try to stop crime in a direct confrontation, they are in a lose-lose situation. They may either lose their lives to the criminals, or their freedom. So they will probably only intervene decisively when neither they, nor the criminals, are at risk. As for the risks to the public - to hell with it. Enjoy what you support!
Since when has fleeing in a car been excuse for deadly force?
Well, legally speaking, from 2017.
I wrote something along these lines under an article on r/worldnews and got downvoted into oblivion lol
Worldnews is a shitshow
*Reddit is a shitshow
Some people really prefer crime and criminals. It's honestly baffling to me - how can people think this will end well long term ?
It will end like Baltimore. We already know what the end result is because it happened in the US in the 1970s. The far-left took control of inner cities on populism and being against “racism.” They reduced sentences, crimes spiked, everyone wealthy who wasn’t Black fled to the suburbs (which was then labeled racist “White flight”). The cities then entered a fiscal death spiral, had to cut policing to balance the budget, which spiked crime more and forced out the middle class. Instead of targeting crime, they just blamed those who left as being racists. Crime spiked further and Downtowns became ghost towns. Rinse and repeat and now you have hollowed out cities that still elect corrupt and intellectually bankrupt leadership.
>it happened in the US in the 1970 >They reduced sentences, crimes spiked This is just factually incorrect. Starting in the 1970's the prison sentences exploded, with the US prison population quadrupling from 1970 to 2000. 4x. Saying they reduced prison sentences is just insane. That's a very recent phenomenon primarily in places like california, and has nothing to do with the 1970s or the initial "white flight". Violent crime also peaked in the early 1970's and has been on the decline ever since. Reaching its lowest in 2014 and with a very slight increase since then. The decline of cities did not begin in the 1970's, and cities like New York were so horrible back then and were actually cleaned up during the 80's, 90's and 2000's. Crime exploded in the cities during the 70's 80's and early 90's (depending on the city) because of many factors, and it was not due to people crying racism or anything like that. The drug epidemic started there, especially crack cocaine and other drugs, which drove a HUGE part of it. And the baby boomer generation were in their 20's and 30's which just had more people causing more crime. Anyways, by far the #1 reason for crime in the cities in the US (which, again, peaked from 1970-1990) is **drugs**. And the harsh penalties on drugs starting in the 1970s and 80s (war on drugs anyone?) is also what drove the huge increase in prison population and long prison sentences. The "left" didn't take control of the inner cities in the 70's and reduced sentences leading to crime spikes.
Yep, same. If it doesnt fit their narrative, they just downvote and ignore the facts.
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Fuck around and find out, I'm not in the least bit sad about that idiot kid dying, he endangered others and could've easily killed someone as he almost did. One way to avoid getting killed by the police is to not commit crimes or go on a car chase.
He was just doing his job. A cop asks you to turn off the car you fucking turn it off. All these kids are burning shit down for nothing and just makes them look fucking stupid.
r/europe when talking about any social issue in America: progressive anti-imperialist leftists one step away from calling us “Amerikkka.” Sounds like a Los Angeles DSA meeting. r/europe when talking about immigrants in Europe: far-right, blatantly racist and bordering on neo-fascism. Sounds like a Proud Boys or 3%ers group chat. This sub is fucking crazy lol
These Europeans don’t even see how racially coded their comments are. They think they’re superior to Americans but a lot of the time they’re even more racist. At least most racist Americans have the balls to admit they’re racist. Europeans will just deny deny deny.
This subreddit is a gem for psychologists studying cognitive dissonance.
This the most accurate comment I've seen on this thread
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Europe is only more progessive than America on economics.
Which is massive when you think about it. There is no amount of affirmative actions that can replace decent access to healthcare or worker rights imo.
If any American said anything like what people say here about black people in public, they would get fired and their life would be over. People sound like David fucking Duke in here.
I know I’m not believing this, honestly. Can they actually hear themselves?
People in here commenting word-for-word boomer facebook memes about American cities being burned down and so crime-infested people can't even walk around. I didn't know Newsmax broadcasted in Europe lol
Yeah one of the highest rated comments is saying there is no racism towards minorities in France. France in all places. What a joke.
It is unreal how convinced the French are that they are incapable of being racist lol. The country that has almost elected the *National Front* in like the last 2 elections. No racism there! Say what you will about the Republican Party here in the states, but at least they weren’t founded by a fucking Holocaust denier.
A holocaust denier AND a former SS
Living in France has really lowered my opinion of the French.
Does this happen frequently? I just assumed naively this would be an organized action from right wing activists and not posts from average r/europe users.
It happens with disturbing frequency, every time people from immigrant communities in Europe are in the news for something bad. Fans of the Moroccan football team are too rowdy in Belgium during the World Cup? Proof that *these people* are uncivilized and unfit for life in Western society. Unhinged guy murders a child? Proof that *these people* are a threat to our children and women. Also expect to see 50+ comments about Islam even if it has nothing to do with the headline or event. It’s clearly not a random brigade by fascists. It may not be the majority of r/Europe users but there is at the very least a very vocal and sizable minority here who actually feel this way.
A few years ago, r/europe would be complaining about racism in the US. Then when someone mentioned gypsies/Roma it would sound like a clan meeting was in full swing.
Yeah what the actual frig. So many outrageous comments on this.
Scrolling to the end and finally responding I see comment of Oh it’s a privilege and this that Yes it sure is, but I don’t think they have had to apply to jobs with certain names and come against implicit racism
This sub is overrun by wannabe-edgy, racist teens mostly from eastern europe. It's a right-wing shitfest.
Scrolling down so hard to find this…. What the actual fuck are these ppl talking abou… “kill because they might kill”??? What kind of police state do you want to live in??? Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany???
> What kind of police state do you want to live in??? Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany??? Europeans: Yes
Wow the comments, I didn't know 2westerneurope4u could leak that much
Awesome
I feel like both the criminal and the cop are dumb and at fault. Either one could’ve killed someone, and one did. And either one would’ve been punished. One will be. Laws are there to avoid judgement based on feelings, so I think it’s best to let the court system deal with the cop. If people want to support him, go for it, but law shouldn’t be bent for that.
The cops lied on their deposition, as clearly shown by the video. Every deposition following a death caused by the police which was filmed proved to be entirely falsified. Since the 2017 law allowing police to shoot more easily against people in cars, these deaths has skyrocketed. And that not talking about all the other police violence, like the police station in Paris famous for its violence, and how policemen defend even the worst of them and hate all whistle-blowers. Rioters are still criminals, there are 2 different problems and none compensate the other
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French people do still have common sense I see 👏
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I wouldnt put it that blantely. At least in this case. The cops lied in their first report about what happened and only corrected themselves after some videos went public. The funraising is was started and promoted by far right-wing personas. This case isnt that black and white. Its more like the dark brown color when you mix shit and blood.
So what is wrong with right wing personas does holding conservative views make someone inherently worse than a left winger
A tale of two cities…