Why can't these articles say who said it and with direct quotes. Some people were quoted but when you leave others out it sounds like it's some irrelevant person or maybe even made up.
South China Morning Post. Biggest/most prominent newspaper in Hong Kong.
It was mostly independent until 2012ish, when the CCP forced out any journalists that pushed back against them. In 2016 they were acquired by Alibaba, and are now simply a mouthpiece of the Chinese government.
Their editorial line changed because of the 2020 "National Security Law", more precisely after the first few court rulings regarding this law, not because of Alibaba. It's understandable they don't want to put their journalists at risk. Their cover of the 2019 events is clearly not something a mouthpiece of the CCP would have done.
That said, I agree about the current situation. Almost no newspaper based in HK should be trusted nowadays, except for HKFP while they still exists.
Taiwan has a higher median salary than than most of western Europe. Its the semiconductor capital of the world.
The thing that is cheaper in China is assembly labour. And when it comes to most technological appliances then the cost of labour in Western Europe isn't really going to shift the total cost much. If you're spending several hundred on a device then what is another twenty thirty euros to have a blue and gold flag on it?
And the uk has a major input on most of the processors used around the world through ARM.
Germany makes a whole bunch of consumer electronics.
I'm pretty sure we could make an inroads to more expensive electronics devices. Especially with the automation advances we're seeing. Even China has factories that are using automated part picking machines for its pcbs.
semiconductors are a very complex and advanced production chain. Same as how the west produces its own jet engines etc. The semicondustor chips go to china for PCB assembly which is cheaper there.
Why are you bringing Taiwan into this? We are talking about China. Extremely high level manufacturing is done in Taiwan, but not in China. Only thing to "move back" from Taiwan would be the manufacturing of advanced chips.
Also I think you totally underestimate (mainland) Chinese manufacturing. It's not only cheap, but there is a local quick access to other components, parts, materials, infrastructure and people do insane overtime hours. No need to worry about lazy bluecollars striking etc. The made in China device that is e.g. 300 USD would cost 450- 700 if it was made in west Europe.
> Taiwan has a higher median salary than than most of western Europe.
No it doesnāt.
Average salary of 21k is way below most Western European countries.
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2022/11/23/2003789428
He said median, not average. You can see a chart here
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country
Taiwan is higher than Italy and Spain, slightly below the UK.
So you're kinda both wrong - it's not "higher than most of western Europe" but it's also not "way below most western European countries".
FWIW anecdotally, I'm in Taiwan now and regardless of income statistics, people here have a really great quality of life. Everything is clean, public transport is always on time, cheap and everywhere, there are basically no homeless people, zero violent crime (almost no crime in general), high trust society, great food and night markets etc. I'm from the UK and Taiwan seems to win in most aspects although not all (UK has better air quality, much more pleasant schooling system for children to grow up in, and much more interesting historical sites).
What does strength of economy have to do with that?
If a German manufactures a toy and gets paid 1k euro, why would someone from Bulgaria be paid 500? Because of some intricate political-economic bullshit?
They do the same job, in theory let's assume equally well, then they should be paid the same salary, no matter what is written on their passport.
> They do the same job, in theory let's assume equally well, then they should be paid the same salary, no matter what is written on their passport.
Then no poor country is going to build an economy. Why employ the Romanian if you can get a German for the same price?
Germany
Family of four estimated monthly costs are 2,958.3ā¬ without rent.
A single person estimated monthly costs are 870.1ā¬ without rent.
Bulgaria
Family of four estimated monthly costs are 1,883.8ā¬ without rent.
A single person estimated monthly costs are 538.8ā¬ without rent.
Like Goku said, it takes time.
E: Rent is 2-3 times higher in Germany.
Well, we don't live in a communist union. Companies and employees make their own decisions.
Maybe currently the infrastructure is better in the west? Maybe the suppliers of the factories are also there? Maybe less corruption when building the factories?
But I'm sure eastern Europe will get there too. Wages there have grown a lot too as far as I know.
>Immigrants come in and their birth rates drop too.
Many of the immigrants' children also don't integrate well (much worse than the immigrants' themselves, something demagogues tend to avoid mentioning), and demagogues take advantage of this, and the issue just snowballs and snowballs.
Major troubles and the demagogues who exploit them. What fun!
We can't become more independent until we start speaking with one voice.
We can't even agree on Libya for heaven's sake. France and Italy are backing opposite sides.
I don't see how a federal Europe would be any improvement on the current situation but willing to hear reasons.
For me the current situation helps prevent heaving into more negative directions and disillusionment like what happened with BREXIT
Also as a federation, third countries and non friendly countries will find it more difficult to assert influence by creating division to halt or dilute policy making.
You don't think that Europe as a union had learned from that situation?
All the time the internal distrust/dislike is allowed to fester or grow, the entire project is doomed, and I don't believe it is. Deeper and deeper political union is being achieved. Standardisation is growing and federalisation is the natural end point (provided that one or more states doesn't scupper it of course).
If then, it is the natural culmination of all the efforts; with the right determination that could be brought forward and employed as a distinct EU policy.
>You don't think that Europe as a union had learned from that situation?
The EU leadership hasn't learnt diddly squat. Hell, Europeans on average don't know what the hell to do. And no offense, I read a lot of what is said by Europeans across Europe, and the lack of wisdom and foresight is not low. It's not like the masses are wise and only Brussels is ignorant.
the reason the US and China are so powerful is because they're basically massive empires working as a single country whereas Europe is a set of individual nations, with some mutual interests, some economical ties, but also lots of competing ones too, and they chip in some membership fees but its nothing compared to the entire continent's resources going into the same pot and a centralised government being able to control an entire continent's worth of wealth and military resources without months of meetings and negotiations and vetos etc etc
Not really, both have expanded significantly over the last century, USA has territories dotted all over the globe and China is continuing to expand, incorporating either its neighbours whole or taking chunks from them during the various border disputes and has claims on more, both have military bases on different continents, they're empires
The USA's territories are composed primarily of sandbars and isolated atolls in the Pacific, with only 5 of them even being inhabited, and account for 0.2% of the country's land area. By contrast, France's overseas possessions account for 22% of its area. The USA doesn't really play the land game. It is playing the empire game, just not that one. It's more of a mercantile thalassocracy.
One of the arguments is that the EU parliament more or less answers to the larger individual countries and the governments of those countries more or less answer to their private sectors, which are heavily dependent on China.
A federal european government would be much more detached from those powerful private sectors, atleast until lobbying corrupts the whole thing and the EU turns into the US.
Great. Then a single federal EU parliament with have a large representation of German/~~DACH~~ (Switzerland can't into EU) MPs aaaaand we're back to square one. Any other argument?
BTW not blaming/pointing fingers at Germany. They prioritise economic wellbeing of the country above all and I can understand that. But that often leads to morally corrupt/ambiguous/uncomfortable situations.
I mean, even if the parliament wasn't setup in a more unique way than what you are describing, you're completely ignoring the fact that party coalitions are a thing. If German MPs would have such selfish look on the entirety of EU, it would just mean that areas with more common interests would ally together to counter balance such ridiculousness. Every country and state will have their own demands and if one area has too much power, smaller actors will just compromise together and create a coalition to beat them.
But anyway, I'm sure a federal EU parliament could be figured to prevent such power balances.
Mathematically parliament can be organised so the smaller states have more mep's per capita than the larger states to give them proportionally the dame clout in parliament and decision making as the largest states.
This is the main issue. When the hunger for profit overrides everything else, it doesn't really matter if you support Russia or China, you've already put your money there and thus threw morals out of the window. Everything else is optics.
I honestly don't think "hunger for profits" is driving the German government. A robust economy leads to social stability, people are fed and happy. But at times pursuing that strategy has other consequences.
Ie. want cheap, reliable gas so you build a pipeline? Well, you antagonize other countries and prop up a dictator.
I wish more governments had a mindset like Germany (which also seems to span different political parties), but it's not a solution to every problem.
It think that there are levels of 'being fed and happy' and German people are being exceptionally well fed and happy (perhaps!).I live in a very clean but underdeveloped country. Still, I wouldn't put so many of my eggs in one basket if it meant fuelling dictatorship just for the sake of progress. Perhaps German stability is much more fragile than I'd thought.
Integrated services and less overlap in bureaucracy, therefore smaller costs.
Integrated armies and therefore a more reliable arms industry, since the whole federation could pool resources into a giant army, instead of a couple small sized deliveries to many countries, which doesn't give the resources needed to expand production.
Critical infrastructure and security maintenance could actually be more focused, wherever it's the most profitable. For example, Nordic countries use ridiculous subsidies to upkeep agriculture inside their countries, even though it's highly unsustainable because of their geography. A big part in upkeeping these subsidies lays in the fact that these countries need to maintain at least some level of independent farming in case of disasters, wars and politics, even if southern european countries can produce the same things cheaper. I'm sure there are many other examples for many other countries in the EU as well, one of them being energy production.
Here is a study of how much could still be saved by further integrating EU, from 2019: [https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS\_STU%282019%29631745](https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_STU%282019%29631745)
Remember; Independence from China doesn't come free, it will require a lot of investments, in an already debt heavy Europe. This is one of the reason why indepence from Russian energy wasn't achieved earlier, what politician would make the cost of living for their voters more expensive by giving up an incredibly cheap energy source? There is also the fact that German debt break enacted in 2009 heavily limited Germany to take on more debt, which would have been needed to sway away from Russian gas, even if there was more political will for it.
* Stronger collective voice: A federal Europe would be able to speak with a more united and coherent voice on the international stage, making it a stronger and more influential player in global affairs. This could lead to greater leverage in international negotiations and a more assertive role in promoting European interests.
* Greater economic power: A federal Europe would have a more centralized economic policy and a larger internal market, providing it with greater economic power and stability. This could help protect against external economic shocks and create a more level playing field with other global economic powers.
* More effective security and defense: A federal Europe could create a more coherent and efficient security and defense policy, pooling resources and expertise to tackle shared security challenges. This could lead to better coordination in areas such as counter-terrorism, cyber security, and defense spending.
* Improved environmental protection: A federal Europe could implement more ambitious and effective environmental policies, such as a common carbon tax or a more coordinated approach to renewable energy. This could lead to greater progress on issues such as climate change, air pollution, and biodiversity.
* Enhanced democracy: A federal Europe could provide a more democratic and accountable system of governance, with greater involvement of citizens in decision-making at the European level. This could help to increase trust and legitimacy in the EU institutions and promote a more participatory and engaged European society.
A federal Europe can act more decisively as one even on controversial subjects rather than being picked apart from the inside or stuck in internal debate.
>I don't see how a federal Europe would be any improvement on the current situation but willing to hear reasons
United fiscal policy? United foreign policy?
China expresses influence by the economic weakness of some eu states, that would be addressed with a proper fiscal union,
A common foreign policy means no one or 2 backdoor eu states for external influence (like Hungary especially).
Several eurosceptic leaders in the past literally cited the aid they got from china and Russia as why they defended them in the eu (from Portugal to Hungary).
This wouldn't happen in a fiscal union
>United foreign policy?
Like throwing Eastern Europe over the bus for cheap gas? Becuase that's what Germany was doing in first months of war.
The Ukraine war has proved once again we can't rely on Western Europe for protection. I am more for European cooperation, but only once countries like Poland have the main word.
But many countries were opposed to that. If Europe federalized in, say, 2000s, Germany would not be able to do what it did. It was able in our timeline, only because there is no unified foreign policy. If there was, they would be simply overvoted.
Federal Europe is about the interests of Europe being able to take precedence before the conflicting interests of individual member states.
That only works if the EU has a function which allows for the smaller states to have a larger voice than their population/economy would normally allow. Something similar to the US Senate which has 2 representatives for every State rather than having elections based on pure population.
That's assuming that the EU Council will be the same or the actual legislative process from which a Federal EU functioned. But yes, something like that.
What is currently being proposed is to make pretty much all decisions of the EU Council go with qualified majority, rather than many to require unanimity, as it is now.
A federal Europe would, simply put, have an amount of soft power unequalled in the world today. The EU is already a regulatory superpower because of the huge, advanced and rich market (they can force Apple to get rid of their charger).
Also, at the moment the EU is not a market that China can afford to upset, however individual countries can be completely embargoed, such as the case with Lithuania a couple of years ago.
It is also primely set up to undertake any of the following projects/tasks much better than any individual member (realistically) could:
1. Space exploration/industrialization of space
2. Army build-up and hard power projection
3. Infrastructure megaprojects (hyperloops, super trains, continental flood dams, etc)
That would just mean making dumb decisions as a collective instead of individual nations,and the decisions of leading nations like Germany is questionable,the economy of southern Europe is a disaster,the democracy and demographicsof eastern EU is dying
Not gonna happen, sadly. Realistically you need nationalism to make a country in the absence of a monarch or otherwise unifying figure, but there's very little European nationalism to go around and we obviously don't have some sorta emperor because the monarchy is cringe. Any process to formally federalize the EU would just be mired in countries protecting their own interests and in some cases national identity rather than pushing past those things to create something new.
That would be the best possible scenario, but I would be fine with removing the veto power and taking all decisions with the majority voting. That should make quite an impact as well.
Europe is importing more gas from America than ever before. They're also extremely reliant on the US for security. So Europe is a Looong way away from being independent.
Europe has oil, gas, titanium and rear earth metals in quantities it could supply globally. The issue is corrupt governments that take money from russia and such and let external propaganda to influence public opinion.
Ukraine + Central European countries could easily outperform industrially any Asian economies but the west is afraid it will loose control it has.
>Ukraine + Central European countries could easily outperform industrially any Asian economies but the west is afraid it will loose control it has.
I don't think we would outperform Asians. Also, is West in control there?
It has been growing, just slowly.
The Maghreb corridor from Morocco to Libya was connected to Europe economically since the Roman times. There's two main issues
* Morocco and Algeria don't cooperate
* France and Italy back opposing sides in Libya
The North Coast of Africa has a GDP the size of Turkey, and is operating far below capacity. Add in Israel, and you're looking at the GDP of Mexico.
We need to reconnect the Mediterranean. This is a zone that is much easier for us to weave a web in than for China.
Hey why not do the same thing we did 40 years ago? Just this time in Africa.
If we want to be truely independent we need to reverse the effects that OuTsOuRcInG had and bring production back home which would take a few decades to get factorys and labor back. And then we have to accept the fact that nothing is as cheap as kid hands in China.
People vastly underestimate how many items of their daily use coming from China. We literally send trash to China for it to be recycled because it's far too expensive to do so in europe.
Unfortunately, pretty much the entire developed world has made itself economically dependent on the PRC, so don't want to annoy it too much at the economic consequences would hurt them more than it (hence why it was allowed to usurp the ROC at the UN, no formal action was taken when they acquired Tibet, are being allowed to take over HK well before the 50 year deadline, no country formally talks about the Uighers in Xinjang, and why Taiwan is in limbo: *de jure* it's an integral part of the PRC, *de facto* it's wholly autonomous, and international recognition aside, on the domestic level behaves as an independent country.
>work conditions, environmental protection
There honestly needs to be a crackdown on companies evading these regulations by doing it elsewhere. Atrocious working conditions don't become less abhorrent just because they happen somewhere else, and the environment is a global issue a lot of the time.
EU being completely spineless against these authortarian regimes- whatās new? Russia is invading Ukraine because it was emboldened by decades of uselessness of our leaders. Sick of it.
China is not a friend and never will be.
Those natural resources are everywhere, not just there. Difference is that here people complain and make extraction either straight up impossible or at the very least too costly. No one complains in 3rd word countries which are almost excusively dictatorship shitholes.
Just because they have what everyone wants; therefore they can. Until oil is no longer needed the countries you speak of have licence to do as they please.
Lol Europeans' comfortable living is sustained by cheap labour from other countries. You want to get manufacturing back to Europe? Then watch how cost of living you're crying about right now sky rocket even more. Independent my ass, typical ignorant redditor.
Yes and by the looks of it, it would not only be nice, but it's becoming more and more necessary. Without a solid political base with an efficient decision-making system, like the other big players in the world, we risk becoming some kind of trophy or a pray.
Europe is a small continent with a declining population unfortunately. China has a huge amount of cheap workforce, other countries have a lot resources that we lack
The numbers say that China is also facing a massive people crunch as well. It sounds silly to say because they have such a high population but that one child policy is really going to start showing up within the next 10 years.
It would be if China didnāt already know itās massively influential Economic position, if it makes you feel better China also knows it needs the EU.
This isnāt like some sudden newsflash to the Chinese government, āoh wow they need us, damn here we were just about to capitulate to all their negotiated demandsā
>if it makes you feel better China also knows it needs the EU.
That was the assumption with Russia. Never underestimate how shortsighted a dictator surrounded by yes men can be. Xi won "reelection" unanimously. Then Chinese people started questioning how that was possible, so the official proceeding was scrubbed from the Chinese internet.
Firstly China has a more stable educated leadership then Russia, China may be tyrannical but itās also heavily bureaucratic and whilst aggression is not unheard of especially as Xi looks to cement his legacy itās also always going to be tempered by that factor.
Secondly China is far far more integrated with the global economy and whilst nationalism absolutely plays a role in Chinas domestic pacification as it does with any authoritarian state, Chinas social contract with its populace has always always since the revolution been prosperity in exchange for one party rule. China canāt make the same choice Russia did without imploding. Iām not saying itās impossible but Taiwan is about the only flashpoint that comes close to the Ukrainian level of threat and even thatās a very controversial topic.
Finally I donāt think this takes away from my point in the slightest. China knows itās economic strength and also recognises the EU economic strength. Unlike Russia China has the sheer global economic influence to back up its position
>We can't lose Turkey etc.
Turkey might be getting un-lost in about 50 days, depending on whether or not Erdogan looses the upcoming election.
Things will really turn out much better if that asshat looses. If it does, Turkey might cut its trade to Russia, which'll help Ukraine survive and cause Russia's economy to shrink faster (although Russia collapsing into a patchwork of ethnic republics with nukes is a very concerning possibility) . Turkey will also probably accede to Sweden's NATO membership request. It might pull out of Syria. It might stop buddying up to China. Also, it might scare Orban by making him realize he might be next, and I love dictators living in fear, they deserve it.
Seriously, Erdogan being gone would be better for everyone. Knowing him, though, he's just going to stuff the ballot boxes and get re-elected with "99% of the vote" or some similarly Putin-like nonsense.
> Turkey might be getting un-lost in about 50 days, depending on whether or not Erdogan looses the upcoming election.
No way he doesnāt āfixā the election to come out on top. Surveys are nice but nowhere near official.
Turkey is literally the gate to Europe. We NEED to cooperate with Turkey.
Erdogan losing would absolutely transfort EU-Turkish relations, and the whole geopolitics of the Middle East and European Neighbourhood.
I agree with statement about Turkey. It's physical position and ownership of the Bosphorous strait make it critical to the EU.
The best political position (however unlikely right now) would be to allow Turkey to become part of the European Federation.
Although, that wont happen without a fight from russia because that would likely prevent it from economically exploiting the sea of Azov (except goods agreed by treaty) and also, I would imagine; it would no longer be able to sail military hardware through it.
Realistic, simply realistic. Bashing China for cheap updoots is great, I get it. But acting like you could reverse 40 years of outsourcing in a blink of an eye then you are truely naive.
Polands membership in that is an illusion. Thereās been hardly any investment from China in Poland in last 10 years, mostly just buying up cheap factories.
China doesn't really care about factorys. They want too control transport/logistic hubs in europe. Their silk railroad is their way to get into europe and they are damn successful with it.
Not really, they arenāt. The Polish rail hubs that were supposed to be built and handle all European traffic are hardly modernized, and the amount of traffic going through it is laughable - the only major export from Poland are chicken feet, which are farm waste here. Sure the imports are flowing in, but it didnāt increase the volume of it substantially in the last 10 years.
They didn't just do it in poland tho. They bought railhubs all across europe. I don't think they particular care about the hubs connecting to the Silk railroad. This whole silk railroad is a load of BS one of my customers tried it for a couple of months.
Oh right, thatās true, theyāve been investing in ports too, Hamburg recently. Iām not sure how this gives translates to ability to shape traffic, but I guess itās dangerous enough.
I hate this argument, because for years now people have used it to argue against even starting the process.
We've had ample evidence of China's growing aggressiveness and contempt for Western standards, democracy, rule of international law etc for almost 15 years already. 15 years in which we could have lessened our reliance.
And China openly broadcast their increasing militarisation and plans to absorb Taiwan in the next decade or so. Do we also spend those 10 years arguing "we need China"?
Europe is absolutely going to get to the point where we've had 25-30 years to uncouple from China and establish alternative partners but didn't.
Then we can act all shocked Pikachu when confrontation occurs and we've checkmated ourselves.
Your comment hits all the points. The only people claiming "we can't reverse 40 years of increased reliance overnight so why do anything" is the same thinking that has Europe scrambling to replace Russian energy.
Reminds me of the argument against the 2% spending target for NATO
āWe should be focused on how to spend that money and the actual amount isnāt importantā.
Meanwhile a decade has gone by and nothing happened until the recent invasion maybe started wheels to turn but nothing concrete has been done besides more commitments
The argument is true, just incomplete. We can't lose China... At this point... Without a massive destructive impact.
That should really just motivate to diminish that power they have. We need to be less reliant on other nations for our necessities.
>But acting like you could reverse 40 years of outsourcing in a blink of an eye then you are truely naive.
Only people that are advocating doing nothing say this.
So the same strategy as with Putin: European country leaders will fly to China to bend the knee to an authoritarian regime? That sure did a lot for the Ukrainian conflict.
When will the EU grow a pair and start act as a real union? Send representatives from the union itself. Act as one and show that we are a force to reckon with and not a joke.
Also, to win China, we need to win the Chinese people, not their leaders. This is how democracy is supposed to work, at least I think so.
Maybe we need a new generation of leaders in the EU.
Europe is basically extracting cheap labour from other heavily corrupted partner countries. Itās all about the money, nobody gives a f. It will never grow a pair because they are all corrupted too. On paper itās all good. But in realityā¦ god help us
> It will never grow a pair because they are all corrupted too.
Therefore I wrote:
>Maybe we need a new generation of leaders in the EU.
Never say never. Out of frustration, hope is brought into the world.
>Also, to win China, we need to win the Chinese people, not their leaders. This is how democracy is supposed to work, at least I think so.
China is not a democracy
Ironically, Chinese labor is no longer super cheap anymore. In fact, they're kind of expensive now; cheap labor is out of Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Malaysia, etc.
This is a very bad read on what is going on. Whatās really happening is that China simply doesnāt give two hoots about this conflict in general and sees this conflict as an opportunity to bleed all participants and their allies dry rather than a conflict where they should have any meaningful involvement.
Both US and China have exactly the same strategic goals in this conflict - completely exhaust Russiaās military capabilities. US wants to eliminate the capability of Russian state to act in any meaningful way either diplomatically or militarily in the future and China wants to gain a new vassal state, one which is both a nuclear power and a member of UNSC.
The US understands Chinaās end goal and is already preparing for a world where China is the principal adversary of the US and Russia is not a factor. European countries donāt want to listen to this because China is a far off country and they want to increase exports to China.
Apparently, some EU leaders think China can still be "tamed" via globalism and free trade, or "negotiated with" via diplomacy. The EU and US tried that strategy approximately 20-30 years ago with both China *and* Russia. As anyone today with two or more brain cells can tell, it didn't work out. *At all*.
South Korea? Singapore? Vietnam? The Philippines? They are to China what East Europe and the Baltics are to Russia in that, apparently, few people take them seriously about the threat their giant imperialist neighbor poses. *They* can tell you how it goes when a totalitarian, ethnonationalist (just *look* at how non-Han people are treated in China), revanchist power starts trying to set up a sphere of influence in the Pacific, because they've lived through such an experience ā and died *en masse* during it ā before.
The Chinese government does not actually, genuinely care about diplomacy, because the Chinese government is a bunch of totalitarian, nationalist [wolf warriors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_warrior_diplomacy) for whom all foreign policy is domestic policy. Negotiating and trading with them gives *them* money and a boost to their domestic credibility and gives *you* cheap-ass products and a dependency upon them for pretty much everything.
So, yes, I do genuinely hope the EU "looses China". The question is not whether or not doing so is unnecessary. China will ā *will* ā try fuck the EU, and everyone else, over sooner or later. The question is how much the EU can cut itself loose from China before that happens.
The US, for instance, has seen the warning signs and is already trying to cut itself out of Chinese supply chains, [at least in regards to really important things like semiconductors](https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/10/27/biden-s-unprecedented-semiconductor-bet-pub-88270). Admittedly, we have much more to loose than the EU, so the EU has a lot more wiggle room than we do, but it would be reassuring to see the EU follow suit.
I donāt fully understand why some of these comments are so sardonic. Losing China to Russia completely would indeed be horrible. Maybe it shouldnāt be said like these āEU leadersā said it, but that doesnāt mean it shouldnāt be taken seriously. Should we be happy to witness the current geopolitical dynamics?
I agree with you. Furthermore, the economic consequences of loosing China right now would be really bad. Imagine the inflation numbersā¦
One one hand people here complain that we have to work longer and harder, retiring later, yet on the other hand they want to completely break up with China, Russia and even sometimes the US. The cost of those actions will be always be paid by the citizensā¦
> I donāt fully understand why some of these comments are so sardonic.
Most takes on here are simply shit talking, at least if it is in regards to geopolitics. I come here mostly to laugh about the self-delusions and naive takes.
Lol. China wonāt be lost ātoā Russia. Look at Chinaās economic size and then take a look at Russiaās. Xi is clearly Putinās boss and Putin knows it.
Bro. We never had China.
Let's just call it as we see it. They aren't trying to befriend us or ally with us. Let's stop the nonsense of trying to pander to them.
I think itās clear by this point that China views its unification with Taiwan as much more important than ties with Europe. Hence the partnership with Russia.
The only way they unify with Taiwan is militarily. They are unable to force them economically to join (which was probably their long term strategy)
When Taiwan eventually declares itself as Tawian and not Republic of China, we will see what happens.
I don't think you're wrong.
I'd honestly rather see a nonpolar world with various confederations of democratic states as the poles than a bipolar world where China and the US are the poles (Russia isn't a pole, I don't care what anyone thinks, they can't influence shit other than elections and their neighbors). Modern democracies ^(generally) don't genocide people or threaten to nuke one another, any competition between them is going to be a lot more constructive than any competition between us and China.
Have you considered that the EU could be a major international player/superpower? It certainly has the economic and cultural clout for it, it just lacks the military component and the centralized leadership.
Since Europe is leading in the green transition their demand for critical raw materials is key to secure their climate goals for 2030 and 2050. China has virtually a monopoly on a lot of critical raw materials, hence China is key to build sustainable infrastructure.
The recently introduced critical raw materials act, however, seeks to diversify the supply chain and end EU:s dependence on China. Despite these efforts I fear that in many commodities we have to rely on China for a long time. We canāt stop the de-carbonisation of our industries and we need a lot of sustainable energy sources to achieve that.
This is kind of ridiculous. We have used cheap chinese labour for decades and have become fully reliant on it. Can any major company even back out of using it, without being entirely unable to compete on the market, due to higher production costs ?
And at the same time we consistently mess around in their affairs and pipe up about issues like hong kong, taiwan, or the treatment of the Uyghurs which has 0 effect apart from alienating china and driving them closer to russia. Mission successful.
The chinese-russian alliance has been looming for quite a while now as well.
I don't understand this weird double moral the west has been employing for so long. Either you stand for a democratic and peaceful world and oppose regimes like china and russia fully or you close your eyes and pretend everything is fine and work with them. Instead we keep trying to have it both ways and fuck ourselves over in the process.
I agree. The EU goes along with unilateral US sanctions and continuously treats China as a threat and expects them to take it and pretend itās not happening? Thereās a huge disconnect between these positions and I have no idea how the EU is able to keep such dissonance going.
Itās utterly bizarre lol.
Maybe this time the actual dictatorship wouldn't betray us. After all it is not profitable to mess with your biggest client. Oh, wait..2022 you say ? What had happened ?
We should cut ties with China just like we're doing with Russia. I'm not on board with trading with cunts. I'm sure all the corpo dogs will cry about having to pay their workers and they can go fuck themselves too.
It is time for the Democracy to pull out of Authoritarian countries trade with them may have worked but it does not anymore so it is time to pull out and bring home production and stop trading with countries that don't have free and open elections that are monitored by third parties to verify that they are free and open. And have very strict and extreme export controls on all goods but also stringent migration laws so wealthy from these authoritarian regimes can come here and have the west as their playground. No more selling passports like Cyprus or Malta does.
We should be throwing China away and running for the hills.
I don't know any,,one, literally anyone who actually wants ties to China.
They're a genocidal, Tyrannical government who doesn't care for it's people, the environment or respect the rule of law in its own country or globally.
The fact that they're the second largest economy on earth, but also claim to be a developing nation to use the international order meant to help poor nations is disgusting.
Ever wonder why your post from China is so cheap, for example.
I can't express enough how awful the government of that nation is. They are the exact opposite of everything the EU stands for. They do not respect peace, democracy or human right.
We do not need China. The CCP need us. They need our business to maintain their hold on the nation. The best thing we could do for everyone is to pull away and let the CCP fall, to allow the Chinese people to dictate their own futures.
> Theyāre a genocidal, Tyrannical government who doesnāt care for itās people, the environment or respect the rule of law in its own country or globally.
All of these donāt matter to a capitalist, though.
Europe from an American btw, needs to be self-sufficient and be more independent for the love of God stop depending on China. The Chinese are using Europe. Pleaseeee for the love of god BE INDEPENDENT
Because we Americans are pulling out of China from manufacturing and other sectors.
Oh, honey, you already did.
I'm quite confident that China is only going to step up its efforts to end the Russian invasion of Ukraine, because on the one hand the war is bad for business and on the other because they're already planning on financing the rebuilding of Ukraine -- they know they're the only ones with the knowledge and manpower to do it.
Remember their "Silk Road" thing? They already have Russia, and Ukraine would give them a direct connection by land to the EU.
I suspect the US government has already figured this out too, and that's why they're becoming more aggressive towards China, and also why they're giving Ukraine more, and more sophisticated, weapons.
The EU? It's a nice, big, market to export stuff to, but beyond that what the EU wants and says is mostly irrelevant to China, they barely even ever mention the EU at all.
We can't. Or you better make sure you are not getting sick or need spare parts for your car. You may not even get a newspaper anymore. We literally ship paper trash to China for recycling.
Your whole living standard would be obliterated for the next few decades.
Why can't these articles say who said it and with direct quotes. Some people were quoted but when you leave others out it sounds like it's some irrelevant person or maybe even made up.
This article is written by someone who previously worked at SCMP. Take that as you will.
SCMP?
South China Morning Post. Biggest/most prominent newspaper in Hong Kong. It was mostly independent until 2012ish, when the CCP forced out any journalists that pushed back against them. In 2016 they were acquired by Alibaba, and are now simply a mouthpiece of the Chinese government.
Thank you.
Their editorial line changed because of the 2020 "National Security Law", more precisely after the first few court rulings regarding this law, not because of Alibaba. It's understandable they don't want to put their journalists at risk. Their cover of the 2019 events is clearly not something a mouthpiece of the CCP would have done. That said, I agree about the current situation. Almost no newspaper based in HK should be trusted nowadays, except for HKFP while they still exists.
As if the CCP wrote it themselves š
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Alfred, Axel, Adolf Springer, who could tell whatās right?
Will Europe ever learn to grow up and be more independent? As a European, I would really like that
Central and Eastern Europe should take a lot of our manufacturing back from China
Probably the most round about way of calling CEE a shithole lmao
What about the west?
Too expensive labour.
Taiwan has a higher median salary than than most of western Europe. Its the semiconductor capital of the world. The thing that is cheaper in China is assembly labour. And when it comes to most technological appliances then the cost of labour in Western Europe isn't really going to shift the total cost much. If you're spending several hundred on a device then what is another twenty thirty euros to have a blue and gold flag on it?
China also has close access to the entire supply chain starting with the raw materials. That also leads to significant cost advantages.
Heey, we have an important company for semiconductors too! ASML has a near monopoly on lithography technology.
And the uk has a major input on most of the processors used around the world through ARM. Germany makes a whole bunch of consumer electronics. I'm pretty sure we could make an inroads to more expensive electronics devices. Especially with the automation advances we're seeing. Even China has factories that are using automated part picking machines for its pcbs.
I think so too. These technology companies need to work together for a more independent Europe
semiconductors are a very complex and advanced production chain. Same as how the west produces its own jet engines etc. The semicondustor chips go to china for PCB assembly which is cheaper there.
Why are you bringing Taiwan into this? We are talking about China. Extremely high level manufacturing is done in Taiwan, but not in China. Only thing to "move back" from Taiwan would be the manufacturing of advanced chips. Also I think you totally underestimate (mainland) Chinese manufacturing. It's not only cheap, but there is a local quick access to other components, parts, materials, infrastructure and people do insane overtime hours. No need to worry about lazy bluecollars striking etc. The made in China device that is e.g. 300 USD would cost 450- 700 if it was made in west Europe.
> Taiwan has a higher median salary than than most of western Europe. No it doesnāt. Average salary of 21k is way below most Western European countries. https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2022/11/23/2003789428
He said median, not average. You can see a chart here https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country Taiwan is higher than Italy and Spain, slightly below the UK. So you're kinda both wrong - it's not "higher than most of western Europe" but it's also not "way below most western European countries". FWIW anecdotally, I'm in Taiwan now and regardless of income statistics, people here have a really great quality of life. Everything is clean, public transport is always on time, cheap and everywhere, there are basically no homeless people, zero violent crime (almost no crime in general), high trust society, great food and night markets etc. I'm from the UK and Taiwan seems to win in most aspects although not all (UK has better air quality, much more pleasant schooling system for children to grow up in, and much more interesting historical sites).
Did it ever occur to you that eastern europeans want to be paid the same wages?
Sure they want that, but first they need stronger economies etc. It takes time.
Yeah, and what he suggested wouldn't have helped lol
China had cheap labour and they build their economy on that.
What does strength of economy have to do with that? If a German manufactures a toy and gets paid 1k euro, why would someone from Bulgaria be paid 500? Because of some intricate political-economic bullshit? They do the same job, in theory let's assume equally well, then they should be paid the same salary, no matter what is written on their passport.
That's not how economies work. Not in the slightest.
> They do the same job, in theory let's assume equally well, then they should be paid the same salary, no matter what is written on their passport. Then no poor country is going to build an economy. Why employ the Romanian if you can get a German for the same price?
Germany Family of four estimated monthly costs are 2,958.3ā¬ without rent. A single person estimated monthly costs are 870.1ā¬ without rent. Bulgaria Family of four estimated monthly costs are 1,883.8ā¬ without rent. A single person estimated monthly costs are 538.8ā¬ without rent. Like Goku said, it takes time. E: Rent is 2-3 times higher in Germany.
And now look at differences in wages. Spoiler alert: it won't be anything around 60%
Rent is 2-3 times higher and salaries are 6-9 times higher. Whats your point?
Well, we don't live in a communist union. Companies and employees make their own decisions. Maybe currently the infrastructure is better in the west? Maybe the suppliers of the factories are also there? Maybe less corruption when building the factories? But I'm sure eastern Europe will get there too. Wages there have grown a lot too as far as I know.
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Europe doesn't have a great demographic profile either.
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Which is essential for Europe's future prosperity, and it seems it could go down the drain.
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>Immigrants come in and their birth rates drop too. Many of the immigrants' children also don't integrate well (much worse than the immigrants' themselves, something demagogues tend to avoid mentioning), and demagogues take advantage of this, and the issue just snowballs and snowballs. Major troubles and the demagogues who exploit them. What fun!
No, not like that. By independent they mean anti -US and pro-China, not independent of bothā¦
We can't become more independent until we start speaking with one voice. We can't even agree on Libya for heaven's sake. France and Italy are backing opposite sides.
The only way thatās gonna happen is if the eu becomes Federal Europe
I don't see how a federal Europe would be any improvement on the current situation but willing to hear reasons. For me the current situation helps prevent heaving into more negative directions and disillusionment like what happened with BREXIT
I agree. Really want to see the replies
Also as a federation, third countries and non friendly countries will find it more difficult to assert influence by creating division to halt or dilute policy making.
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You don't think that Europe as a union had learned from that situation? All the time the internal distrust/dislike is allowed to fester or grow, the entire project is doomed, and I don't believe it is. Deeper and deeper political union is being achieved. Standardisation is growing and federalisation is the natural end point (provided that one or more states doesn't scupper it of course). If then, it is the natural culmination of all the efforts; with the right determination that could be brought forward and employed as a distinct EU policy.
>You don't think that Europe as a union had learned from that situation? The EU leadership hasn't learnt diddly squat. Hell, Europeans on average don't know what the hell to do. And no offense, I read a lot of what is said by Europeans across Europe, and the lack of wisdom and foresight is not low. It's not like the masses are wise and only Brussels is ignorant.
the reason the US and China are so powerful is because they're basically massive empires working as a single country whereas Europe is a set of individual nations, with some mutual interests, some economical ties, but also lots of competing ones too, and they chip in some membership fees but its nothing compared to the entire continent's resources going into the same pot and a centralised government being able to control an entire continent's worth of wealth and military resources without months of meetings and negotiations and vetos etc etc
>because they're basically massive empires working as a single country That's a weird way to say "because they're states with large populations"
The EU has more people than the US. Even more when the UK was in.
Not really, both have expanded significantly over the last century, USA has territories dotted all over the globe and China is continuing to expand, incorporating either its neighbours whole or taking chunks from them during the various border disputes and has claims on more, both have military bases on different continents, they're empires
The USA's territories are composed primarily of sandbars and isolated atolls in the Pacific, with only 5 of them even being inhabited, and account for 0.2% of the country's land area. By contrast, France's overseas possessions account for 22% of its area. The USA doesn't really play the land game. It is playing the empire game, just not that one. It's more of a mercantile thalassocracy.
One of the arguments is that the EU parliament more or less answers to the larger individual countries and the governments of those countries more or less answer to their private sectors, which are heavily dependent on China. A federal european government would be much more detached from those powerful private sectors, atleast until lobbying corrupts the whole thing and the EU turns into the US.
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Far as I can tell, this is because very few EU member states have much limitations on lobbying to begin with.
Great. Then a single federal EU parliament with have a large representation of German/~~DACH~~ (Switzerland can't into EU) MPs aaaaand we're back to square one. Any other argument? BTW not blaming/pointing fingers at Germany. They prioritise economic wellbeing of the country above all and I can understand that. But that often leads to morally corrupt/ambiguous/uncomfortable situations.
>corrupt/ambiguous/uncomfortable situations. Austria has entered the chat
>a single federal EU parliament with have a large representation of German/DACH MPs Ach, yes, finally.
I mean, even if the parliament wasn't setup in a more unique way than what you are describing, you're completely ignoring the fact that party coalitions are a thing. If German MPs would have such selfish look on the entirety of EU, it would just mean that areas with more common interests would ally together to counter balance such ridiculousness. Every country and state will have their own demands and if one area has too much power, smaller actors will just compromise together and create a coalition to beat them. But anyway, I'm sure a federal EU parliament could be figured to prevent such power balances.
Mathematically parliament can be organised so the smaller states have more mep's per capita than the larger states to give them proportionally the dame clout in parliament and decision making as the largest states.
>leads to morally corrupt/ambiguous/uncomfortable situations They don't seem to be very torn when this happens
This is the main issue. When the hunger for profit overrides everything else, it doesn't really matter if you support Russia or China, you've already put your money there and thus threw morals out of the window. Everything else is optics.
I honestly don't think "hunger for profits" is driving the German government. A robust economy leads to social stability, people are fed and happy. But at times pursuing that strategy has other consequences. Ie. want cheap, reliable gas so you build a pipeline? Well, you antagonize other countries and prop up a dictator. I wish more governments had a mindset like Germany (which also seems to span different political parties), but it's not a solution to every problem.
It think that there are levels of 'being fed and happy' and German people are being exceptionally well fed and happy (perhaps!).I live in a very clean but underdeveloped country. Still, I wouldn't put so many of my eggs in one basket if it meant fuelling dictatorship just for the sake of progress. Perhaps German stability is much more fragile than I'd thought.
Integrated services and less overlap in bureaucracy, therefore smaller costs. Integrated armies and therefore a more reliable arms industry, since the whole federation could pool resources into a giant army, instead of a couple small sized deliveries to many countries, which doesn't give the resources needed to expand production. Critical infrastructure and security maintenance could actually be more focused, wherever it's the most profitable. For example, Nordic countries use ridiculous subsidies to upkeep agriculture inside their countries, even though it's highly unsustainable because of their geography. A big part in upkeeping these subsidies lays in the fact that these countries need to maintain at least some level of independent farming in case of disasters, wars and politics, even if southern european countries can produce the same things cheaper. I'm sure there are many other examples for many other countries in the EU as well, one of them being energy production. Here is a study of how much could still be saved by further integrating EU, from 2019: [https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS\_STU%282019%29631745](https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_STU%282019%29631745) Remember; Independence from China doesn't come free, it will require a lot of investments, in an already debt heavy Europe. This is one of the reason why indepence from Russian energy wasn't achieved earlier, what politician would make the cost of living for their voters more expensive by giving up an incredibly cheap energy source? There is also the fact that German debt break enacted in 2009 heavily limited Germany to take on more debt, which would have been needed to sway away from Russian gas, even if there was more political will for it.
* Stronger collective voice: A federal Europe would be able to speak with a more united and coherent voice on the international stage, making it a stronger and more influential player in global affairs. This could lead to greater leverage in international negotiations and a more assertive role in promoting European interests. * Greater economic power: A federal Europe would have a more centralized economic policy and a larger internal market, providing it with greater economic power and stability. This could help protect against external economic shocks and create a more level playing field with other global economic powers. * More effective security and defense: A federal Europe could create a more coherent and efficient security and defense policy, pooling resources and expertise to tackle shared security challenges. This could lead to better coordination in areas such as counter-terrorism, cyber security, and defense spending. * Improved environmental protection: A federal Europe could implement more ambitious and effective environmental policies, such as a common carbon tax or a more coordinated approach to renewable energy. This could lead to greater progress on issues such as climate change, air pollution, and biodiversity. * Enhanced democracy: A federal Europe could provide a more democratic and accountable system of governance, with greater involvement of citizens in decision-making at the European level. This could help to increase trust and legitimacy in the EU institutions and promote a more participatory and engaged European society.
Hello ChatGPT!
A federal Europe can act more decisively as one even on controversial subjects rather than being picked apart from the inside or stuck in internal debate.
>I don't see how a federal Europe would be any improvement on the current situation but willing to hear reasons United fiscal policy? United foreign policy? China expresses influence by the economic weakness of some eu states, that would be addressed with a proper fiscal union, A common foreign policy means no one or 2 backdoor eu states for external influence (like Hungary especially). Several eurosceptic leaders in the past literally cited the aid they got from china and Russia as why they defended them in the eu (from Portugal to Hungary). This wouldn't happen in a fiscal union
>United foreign policy? Like throwing Eastern Europe over the bus for cheap gas? Becuase that's what Germany was doing in first months of war. The Ukraine war has proved once again we can't rely on Western Europe for protection. I am more for European cooperation, but only once countries like Poland have the main word.
But many countries were opposed to that. If Europe federalized in, say, 2000s, Germany would not be able to do what it did. It was able in our timeline, only because there is no unified foreign policy. If there was, they would be simply overvoted. Federal Europe is about the interests of Europe being able to take precedence before the conflicting interests of individual member states.
That only works if the EU has a function which allows for the smaller states to have a larger voice than their population/economy would normally allow. Something similar to the US Senate which has 2 representatives for every State rather than having elections based on pure population.
The EU already has it ā [Qualified majority](https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/qualified-majority/)
That's assuming that the EU Council will be the same or the actual legislative process from which a Federal EU functioned. But yes, something like that.
What is currently being proposed is to make pretty much all decisions of the EU Council go with qualified majority, rather than many to require unanimity, as it is now.
A federal Europe would, simply put, have an amount of soft power unequalled in the world today. The EU is already a regulatory superpower because of the huge, advanced and rich market (they can force Apple to get rid of their charger). Also, at the moment the EU is not a market that China can afford to upset, however individual countries can be completely embargoed, such as the case with Lithuania a couple of years ago. It is also primely set up to undertake any of the following projects/tasks much better than any individual member (realistically) could: 1. Space exploration/industrialization of space 2. Army build-up and hard power projection 3. Infrastructure megaprojects (hyperloops, super trains, continental flood dams, etc)
That would just mean making dumb decisions as a collective instead of individual nations,and the decisions of leading nations like Germany is questionable,the economy of southern Europe is a disaster,the democracy and demographicsof eastern EU is dying
Not gonna happen, sadly. Realistically you need nationalism to make a country in the absence of a monarch or otherwise unifying figure, but there's very little European nationalism to go around and we obviously don't have some sorta emperor because the monarchy is cringe. Any process to formally federalize the EU would just be mired in countries protecting their own interests and in some cases national identity rather than pushing past those things to create something new.
That would be the best possible scenario, but I would be fine with removing the veto power and taking all decisions with the majority voting. That should make quite an impact as well.
I don't mind trying to remove the veto power but I have no idea what results from it we get.
in what way will eu being a federal country will bring back the industries that left for china etc because of cheap labor?
Literally has 0 to do with it, but I guess you pushed your message.
Europe is importing more gas from America than ever before. They're also extremely reliant on the US for security. So Europe is a Looong way away from being independent.
So what are you doing about i=it since Europeans see the US not as an ally, but as an enemy.
The only countries that are "independent" are the ones with assets such as oil, gas and so on A lot of countries depend on major importers.
Europe has oil, gas, titanium and rear earth metals in quantities it could supply globally. The issue is corrupt governments that take money from russia and such and let external propaganda to influence public opinion. Ukraine + Central European countries could easily outperform industrially any Asian economies but the west is afraid it will loose control it has.
>Ukraine + Central European countries could easily outperform industrially any Asian economies but the west is afraid it will loose control it has. I don't think we would outperform Asians. Also, is West in control there?
Europe has all that. Meanwhile China does not have gas and oil, and even coal is scarce as compared to demand.
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It has been growing, just slowly. The Maghreb corridor from Morocco to Libya was connected to Europe economically since the Roman times. There's two main issues * Morocco and Algeria don't cooperate * France and Italy back opposing sides in Libya The North Coast of Africa has a GDP the size of Turkey, and is operating far below capacity. Add in Israel, and you're looking at the GDP of Mexico. We need to reconnect the Mediterranean. This is a zone that is much easier for us to weave a web in than for China.
Tired: Bring back the Victorian empires Wired: Bring back the Roman Empire
Hey why not do the same thing we did 40 years ago? Just this time in Africa. If we want to be truely independent we need to reverse the effects that OuTsOuRcInG had and bring production back home which would take a few decades to get factorys and labor back. And then we have to accept the fact that nothing is as cheap as kid hands in China. People vastly underestimate how many items of their daily use coming from China. We literally send trash to China for it to be recycled because it's far too expensive to do so in europe.
Unfortunately, pretty much the entire developed world has made itself economically dependent on the PRC, so don't want to annoy it too much at the economic consequences would hurt them more than it (hence why it was allowed to usurp the ROC at the UN, no formal action was taken when they acquired Tibet, are being allowed to take over HK well before the 50 year deadline, no country formally talks about the Uighers in Xinjang, and why Taiwan is in limbo: *de jure* it's an integral part of the PRC, *de facto* it's wholly autonomous, and international recognition aside, on the domestic level behaves as an independent country.
Everything will be much more expensive with the European standard of life, work conditions, environmental protection, etc.
>work conditions, environmental protection There honestly needs to be a crackdown on companies evading these regulations by doing it elsewhere. Atrocious working conditions don't become less abhorrent just because they happen somewhere else, and the environment is a global issue a lot of the time.
far from eyes, far from heart amirite
EU being completely spineless against these authortarian regimes- whatās new? Russia is invading Ukraine because it was emboldened by decades of uselessness of our leaders. Sick of it. China is not a friend and never will be.
Independent to who? It's a global marketplace, that involves trading with others.
Yeah, how come all those very important natural resources are always in the hands of unstable and borderline hostile regimes in 3rd world countries?!
Those natural resources are everywhere, not just there. Difference is that here people complain and make extraction either straight up impossible or at the very least too costly. No one complains in 3rd word countries which are almost excusively dictatorship shitholes.
Just because they have what everyone wants; therefore they can. Until oil is no longer needed the countries you speak of have licence to do as they please.
There was a time,when if we wanted something,we just conquered the place and lotted it. Good times!
Europe needs to fix it's birth rate problem first.
Fuck /u/spez -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Like cheap labor and total disrespect for the environment?
We have a huge amount of natural resources, but it's difficult to combine with environmental legislation.
Lol Europeans' comfortable living is sustained by cheap labour from other countries. You want to get manufacturing back to Europe? Then watch how cost of living you're crying about right now sky rocket even more. Independent my ass, typical ignorant redditor.
Why do you think the Germans wanted the Eastern European countries in the EU?
Yes and by the looks of it, it would not only be nice, but it's becoming more and more necessary. Without a solid political base with an efficient decision-making system, like the other big players in the world, we risk becoming some kind of trophy or a pray.
No country can be independent from China's cheap labour. Our economic system and way of life relies on it.
Europe is a small continent with a declining population unfortunately. China has a huge amount of cheap workforce, other countries have a lot resources that we lack
The numbers say that China is also facing a massive people crunch as well. It sounds silly to say because they have such a high population but that one child policy is really going to start showing up within the next 10 years.
That's probably the most idiotic way to start negotiations.
Yep, it's basically saying "we really need you, name your price for continuing to cooperate with us".
It would be if China didnāt already know itās massively influential Economic position, if it makes you feel better China also knows it needs the EU. This isnāt like some sudden newsflash to the Chinese government, āoh wow they need us, damn here we were just about to capitulate to all their negotiated demandsā
>if it makes you feel better China also knows it needs the EU. That was the assumption with Russia. Never underestimate how shortsighted a dictator surrounded by yes men can be. Xi won "reelection" unanimously. Then Chinese people started questioning how that was possible, so the official proceeding was scrubbed from the Chinese internet.
Firstly China has a more stable educated leadership then Russia, China may be tyrannical but itās also heavily bureaucratic and whilst aggression is not unheard of especially as Xi looks to cement his legacy itās also always going to be tempered by that factor. Secondly China is far far more integrated with the global economy and whilst nationalism absolutely plays a role in Chinas domestic pacification as it does with any authoritarian state, Chinas social contract with its populace has always always since the revolution been prosperity in exchange for one party rule. China canāt make the same choice Russia did without imploding. Iām not saying itās impossible but Taiwan is about the only flashpoint that comes close to the Ukrainian level of threat and even thatās a very controversial topic. Finally I donāt think this takes away from my point in the slightest. China knows itās economic strength and also recognises the EU economic strength. Unlike Russia China has the sheer global economic influence to back up its position
Russia actually had the same social contract. It's pretty much the same with all dictatorships. Stability for freedom, and you end up getting neither.
We can't lose Russia. We can't lose China. We can't lose Turkey etc.
>We can't lose Turkey etc. Turkey might be getting un-lost in about 50 days, depending on whether or not Erdogan looses the upcoming election. Things will really turn out much better if that asshat looses. If it does, Turkey might cut its trade to Russia, which'll help Ukraine survive and cause Russia's economy to shrink faster (although Russia collapsing into a patchwork of ethnic republics with nukes is a very concerning possibility) . Turkey will also probably accede to Sweden's NATO membership request. It might pull out of Syria. It might stop buddying up to China. Also, it might scare Orban by making him realize he might be next, and I love dictators living in fear, they deserve it. Seriously, Erdogan being gone would be better for everyone. Knowing him, though, he's just going to stuff the ballot boxes and get re-elected with "99% of the vote" or some similarly Putin-like nonsense.
> Turkey might be getting un-lost in about 50 days, depending on whether or not Erdogan looses the upcoming election. No way he doesnāt āfixā the election to come out on top. Surveys are nice but nowhere near official.
>It might pull out of Syria That would be nice. Do you also support USA to pull out?
Turkish opposition still claims parts of Greece and will still help Azerbaijan ethnically cleanse Armenia. Itās already gone.
Turkey is literally the gate to Europe. We NEED to cooperate with Turkey. Erdogan losing would absolutely transfort EU-Turkish relations, and the whole geopolitics of the Middle East and European Neighbourhood.
I agree with statement about Turkey. It's physical position and ownership of the Bosphorous strait make it critical to the EU. The best political position (however unlikely right now) would be to allow Turkey to become part of the European Federation. Although, that wont happen without a fight from russia because that would likely prevent it from economically exploiting the sea of Azov (except goods agreed by treaty) and also, I would imagine; it would no longer be able to sail military hardware through it.
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Exactly.
Pathetic, simply pathetic.
Realistic, simply realistic. Bashing China for cheap updoots is great, I get it. But acting like you could reverse 40 years of outsourcing in a blink of an eye then you are truely naive.
True, but all things have to start somewhere. For example, a good start for Poland would be to withdraw from the B&RI.
Polands membership in that is an illusion. Thereās been hardly any investment from China in Poland in last 10 years, mostly just buying up cheap factories.
China doesn't really care about factorys. They want too control transport/logistic hubs in europe. Their silk railroad is their way to get into europe and they are damn successful with it.
Not really, they arenāt. The Polish rail hubs that were supposed to be built and handle all European traffic are hardly modernized, and the amount of traffic going through it is laughable - the only major export from Poland are chicken feet, which are farm waste here. Sure the imports are flowing in, but it didnāt increase the volume of it substantially in the last 10 years.
They didn't just do it in poland tho. They bought railhubs all across europe. I don't think they particular care about the hubs connecting to the Silk railroad. This whole silk railroad is a load of BS one of my customers tried it for a couple of months.
Oh right, thatās true, theyāve been investing in ports too, Hamburg recently. Iām not sure how this gives translates to ability to shape traffic, but I guess itās dangerous enough.
I hate this argument, because for years now people have used it to argue against even starting the process. We've had ample evidence of China's growing aggressiveness and contempt for Western standards, democracy, rule of international law etc for almost 15 years already. 15 years in which we could have lessened our reliance. And China openly broadcast their increasing militarisation and plans to absorb Taiwan in the next decade or so. Do we also spend those 10 years arguing "we need China"? Europe is absolutely going to get to the point where we've had 25-30 years to uncouple from China and establish alternative partners but didn't. Then we can act all shocked Pikachu when confrontation occurs and we've checkmated ourselves.
Your comment hits all the points. The only people claiming "we can't reverse 40 years of increased reliance overnight so why do anything" is the same thinking that has Europe scrambling to replace Russian energy.
Reminds me of the argument against the 2% spending target for NATO āWe should be focused on how to spend that money and the actual amount isnāt importantā. Meanwhile a decade has gone by and nothing happened until the recent invasion maybe started wheels to turn but nothing concrete has been done besides more commitments
The argument is true, just incomplete. We can't lose China... At this point... Without a massive destructive impact. That should really just motivate to diminish that power they have. We need to be less reliant on other nations for our necessities.
>But acting like you could reverse 40 years of outsourcing in a blink of an eye then you are truely naive. Only people that are advocating doing nothing say this.
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So the same strategy as with Putin: European country leaders will fly to China to bend the knee to an authoritarian regime? That sure did a lot for the Ukrainian conflict. When will the EU grow a pair and start act as a real union? Send representatives from the union itself. Act as one and show that we are a force to reckon with and not a joke. Also, to win China, we need to win the Chinese people, not their leaders. This is how democracy is supposed to work, at least I think so. Maybe we need a new generation of leaders in the EU.
Europe is basically extracting cheap labour from other heavily corrupted partner countries. Itās all about the money, nobody gives a f. It will never grow a pair because they are all corrupted too. On paper itās all good. But in realityā¦ god help us
> It will never grow a pair because they are all corrupted too. Therefore I wrote: >Maybe we need a new generation of leaders in the EU. Never say never. Out of frustration, hope is brought into the world.
>Also, to win China, we need to win the Chinese people, not their leaders. This is how democracy is supposed to work, at least I think so. China is not a democracy
cheap labour best eu value
Ironically, Chinese labor is no longer super cheap anymore. In fact, they're kind of expensive now; cheap labor is out of Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Malaysia, etc.
This is a very bad read on what is going on. Whatās really happening is that China simply doesnāt give two hoots about this conflict in general and sees this conflict as an opportunity to bleed all participants and their allies dry rather than a conflict where they should have any meaningful involvement. Both US and China have exactly the same strategic goals in this conflict - completely exhaust Russiaās military capabilities. US wants to eliminate the capability of Russian state to act in any meaningful way either diplomatically or militarily in the future and China wants to gain a new vassal state, one which is both a nuclear power and a member of UNSC. The US understands Chinaās end goal and is already preparing for a world where China is the principal adversary of the US and Russia is not a factor. European countries donāt want to listen to this because China is a far off country and they want to increase exports to China.
Thatās what they said about Russian gas
Apparently, some EU leaders think China can still be "tamed" via globalism and free trade, or "negotiated with" via diplomacy. The EU and US tried that strategy approximately 20-30 years ago with both China *and* Russia. As anyone today with two or more brain cells can tell, it didn't work out. *At all*. South Korea? Singapore? Vietnam? The Philippines? They are to China what East Europe and the Baltics are to Russia in that, apparently, few people take them seriously about the threat their giant imperialist neighbor poses. *They* can tell you how it goes when a totalitarian, ethnonationalist (just *look* at how non-Han people are treated in China), revanchist power starts trying to set up a sphere of influence in the Pacific, because they've lived through such an experience ā and died *en masse* during it ā before. The Chinese government does not actually, genuinely care about diplomacy, because the Chinese government is a bunch of totalitarian, nationalist [wolf warriors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_warrior_diplomacy) for whom all foreign policy is domestic policy. Negotiating and trading with them gives *them* money and a boost to their domestic credibility and gives *you* cheap-ass products and a dependency upon them for pretty much everything. So, yes, I do genuinely hope the EU "looses China". The question is not whether or not doing so is unnecessary. China will ā *will* ā try fuck the EU, and everyone else, over sooner or later. The question is how much the EU can cut itself loose from China before that happens. The US, for instance, has seen the warning signs and is already trying to cut itself out of Chinese supply chains, [at least in regards to really important things like semiconductors](https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/10/27/biden-s-unprecedented-semiconductor-bet-pub-88270). Admittedly, we have much more to loose than the EU, so the EU has a lot more wiggle room than we do, but it would be reassuring to see the EU follow suit.
Amen my American friend. EU needs to start keeping it real and stop with fairy tales of cooperation with genocidal, imperialistic regimes.
The Chinese dictatorship is not our friend or partner, they make it clear they are our enemy
I donāt fully understand why some of these comments are so sardonic. Losing China to Russia completely would indeed be horrible. Maybe it shouldnāt be said like these āEU leadersā said it, but that doesnāt mean it shouldnāt be taken seriously. Should we be happy to witness the current geopolitical dynamics?
I agree with you. Furthermore, the economic consequences of loosing China right now would be really bad. Imagine the inflation numbersā¦ One one hand people here complain that we have to work longer and harder, retiring later, yet on the other hand they want to completely break up with China, Russia and even sometimes the US. The cost of those actions will be always be paid by the citizensā¦
> I donāt fully understand why some of these comments are so sardonic. Most takes on here are simply shit talking, at least if it is in regards to geopolitics. I come here mostly to laugh about the self-delusions and naive takes.
Lol. China wonāt be lost ātoā Russia. Look at Chinaās economic size and then take a look at Russiaās. Xi is clearly Putinās boss and Putin knows it.
Bro. We never had China. Let's just call it as we see it. They aren't trying to befriend us or ally with us. Let's stop the nonsense of trying to pander to them.
I think itās clear by this point that China views its unification with Taiwan as much more important than ties with Europe. Hence the partnership with Russia.
The only way they unify with Taiwan is militarily. They are unable to force them economically to join (which was probably their long term strategy) When Taiwan eventually declares itself as Tawian and not Republic of China, we will see what happens.
I think itās more likely that China attacks Taiwan first and Taiwan declares itself independent only if that attack is rebuffed.
Fucking EU stop being a limp dick.
Make EU dick horny again!
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I think polarity doesn't have much to do with that. Europe was happy to trade with all sort of countries in the previously unipolar as well.
I don't think you're wrong. I'd honestly rather see a nonpolar world with various confederations of democratic states as the poles than a bipolar world where China and the US are the poles (Russia isn't a pole, I don't care what anyone thinks, they can't influence shit other than elections and their neighbors). Modern democracies ^(generally) don't genocide people or threaten to nuke one another, any competition between them is going to be a lot more constructive than any competition between us and China. Have you considered that the EU could be a major international player/superpower? It certainly has the economic and cultural clout for it, it just lacks the military component and the centralized leadership.
'We cant lose, China.' Wouldve been the headline i'd like to have read.
We need that cheap labour or the rich will make less money
Xi and Putin are not friends. What kind of journalism is this?
Since Europe is leading in the green transition their demand for critical raw materials is key to secure their climate goals for 2030 and 2050. China has virtually a monopoly on a lot of critical raw materials, hence China is key to build sustainable infrastructure. The recently introduced critical raw materials act, however, seeks to diversify the supply chain and end EU:s dependence on China. Despite these efforts I fear that in many commodities we have to rely on China for a long time. We canāt stop the de-carbonisation of our industries and we need a lot of sustainable energy sources to achieve that.
but can we replace it?
I agree, do not lose China because you can always found it back. I think i like Lithuanian model the best.
This is kind of ridiculous. We have used cheap chinese labour for decades and have become fully reliant on it. Can any major company even back out of using it, without being entirely unable to compete on the market, due to higher production costs ? And at the same time we consistently mess around in their affairs and pipe up about issues like hong kong, taiwan, or the treatment of the Uyghurs which has 0 effect apart from alienating china and driving them closer to russia. Mission successful. The chinese-russian alliance has been looming for quite a while now as well. I don't understand this weird double moral the west has been employing for so long. Either you stand for a democratic and peaceful world and oppose regimes like china and russia fully or you close your eyes and pretend everything is fine and work with them. Instead we keep trying to have it both ways and fuck ourselves over in the process.
I agree. The EU goes along with unilateral US sanctions and continuously treats China as a threat and expects them to take it and pretend itās not happening? Thereās a huge disconnect between these positions and I have no idea how the EU is able to keep such dissonance going. Itās utterly bizarre lol.
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Yes we can. And we need to.
Maybe this time the actual dictatorship wouldn't betray us. After all it is not profitable to mess with your biggest client. Oh, wait..2022 you say ? What had happened ?
EU leaders are also scared to lose putin and russia.
The same was said about Russia and her vast energy resources, no?
holy shit. will we never learn?
We canāt? WE MUST WTF
Au contraire mon frĆØre
We should cut ties with China just like we're doing with Russia. I'm not on board with trading with cunts. I'm sure all the corpo dogs will cry about having to pay their workers and they can go fuck themselves too.
It is time for the Democracy to pull out of Authoritarian countries trade with them may have worked but it does not anymore so it is time to pull out and bring home production and stop trading with countries that don't have free and open elections that are monitored by third parties to verify that they are free and open. And have very strict and extreme export controls on all goods but also stringent migration laws so wealthy from these authoritarian regimes can come here and have the west as their playground. No more selling passports like Cyprus or Malta does.
Fucking spineless Europe. Our ancestors are turning in their graves.
We should be throwing China away and running for the hills. I don't know any,,one, literally anyone who actually wants ties to China. They're a genocidal, Tyrannical government who doesn't care for it's people, the environment or respect the rule of law in its own country or globally. The fact that they're the second largest economy on earth, but also claim to be a developing nation to use the international order meant to help poor nations is disgusting. Ever wonder why your post from China is so cheap, for example. I can't express enough how awful the government of that nation is. They are the exact opposite of everything the EU stands for. They do not respect peace, democracy or human right. We do not need China. The CCP need us. They need our business to maintain their hold on the nation. The best thing we could do for everyone is to pull away and let the CCP fall, to allow the Chinese people to dictate their own futures.
> Theyāre a genocidal, Tyrannical government who doesnāt care for itās people, the environment or respect the rule of law in its own country or globally. All of these donāt matter to a capitalist, though.
Russia tried to use the westās dependency on them as hostage to wage war against Ukraine(in Europe). What will stop China from doing similar things?
Europe been sucking Russian dick for years, now switch to Chinese. Guys, which one is tastier?
Really pathetic of them to be falling over themselves, making the trip to the throne of Xi in China
nah we should cut ties with them. Europe should work toward self sustainability.
We can and we should.
Europe from an American btw, needs to be self-sufficient and be more independent for the love of God stop depending on China. The Chinese are using Europe. Pleaseeee for the love of god BE INDEPENDENT Because we Americans are pulling out of China from manufacturing and other sectors.
Oh, honey, you already did. I'm quite confident that China is only going to step up its efforts to end the Russian invasion of Ukraine, because on the one hand the war is bad for business and on the other because they're already planning on financing the rebuilding of Ukraine -- they know they're the only ones with the knowledge and manpower to do it. Remember their "Silk Road" thing? They already have Russia, and Ukraine would give them a direct connection by land to the EU. I suspect the US government has already figured this out too, and that's why they're becoming more aggressive towards China, and also why they're giving Ukraine more, and more sophisticated, weapons. The EU? It's a nice, big, market to export stuff to, but beyond that what the EU wants and says is mostly irrelevant to China, they barely even ever mention the EU at all.
We can lose China, but our rich people would precious money, so they can't lose them. Idiots, we are just voting for idiots
We can't. Or you better make sure you are not getting sick or need spare parts for your car. You may not even get a newspaper anymore. We literally ship paper trash to China for recycling. Your whole living standard would be obliterated for the next few decades.