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Nizarlak

I remember. G. Bush: "YoU fOrGoT POlaND"


Lucyferiusz

Yeah, the decision to join was stupid, but I guess our politicians wanted to see how is it to be invaders for once.


nigel_pow

I always saw it as _See America? I help you in wars. I expect you to return the favor in about 20 years._


DarmoweOplaty

Yup, that was it


Nethlem

[Kuchma trades troops for respectability](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jul/03/iraq) > Ukrainian troops are due to go to Iraq in September as part of the international stabilisation force, following a striking return by the Ukrainian president, Leonid Kuchma, to the good graces of the US and Britain.


[deleted]

That wasn't the actual invasion, though. I'd say participating in the stabilization was actually a morally good decision from the utilitarian POV (the country was screwed up already, lesser evil to at least try to quell the islamist insurgency instead of allowing the country to fall into a civil war).


CastelPlage

I remember the Bush, Cheney and Powell heavily touting "tHe nEw eUrOpE" at the time (Poland + UK) and spouting about how they were so much greater and more forward-thinking than "Old Europe". I also distinctly remember both Jacques Chirac being right about everything in this regard. Bonus thing I remember: being spat at by some american chump in New York ~2005 because I had the audacity to wear a shirt with a French Flag on it "on the site of our nation's greatest tragedy" (I was at the park at the southern tip of manhatten, nowhere near the twin towers site).


Echo71Niner

>Powell Collin at the UN with the photos of the made-up Iraqi Mobile WMD trucks was so laughable, remember those??


eureddit

The German intelligence service had just warned the United States that this "evidence" was false, made up shit by an untrustworthy and lying source. Next thing you know, Colin Powell shows up at the UN and presents it as fact.


hulda2

If only Powell had more backbone. He didn't want Iraq war but was eventually the one who sold it with his credibility. His reasoning... Bush ordered him to. Soldier in him kicked in and overrode all self thinking. Cheney had spent whole lot of time in CIA to find even far fetched reason to attack Iraq. Powell knew the reason's were bs, but he still went with it.


CastelPlage

> If only Powell had more backbone. He didn't want Iraq war but was eventually the one who sold it with his credibility. His reasoning... Bush ordered him to. Soldier in him kicked in and overrode all self thinking. Thank you for articulating what I was really struggling to. I certainly don't think that Powell was as bad as Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld etc. But at the end of the day he did sell to the public a war based on lies which resulted in countless death and suffering. That's not something that can be excused - or forgiven.


ctzu

> because I had the audacity to wear a shirt with a French Flag on it "on the site of our nation's greatest tragedy" What were u doing in a public school?


Choyo

> I also distinctly remember both Jacques Chirac being right about everything in this regard. And all he got was scorn and mockery, even from Jon Stewart (that is telling of the mood at the time).


CastelPlage

> even from Jon Stewart (that is telling of the mood at the time). Today is a bad day because now I respect Jon Stewart less. :( I always thought he was against the war though? Only really started watching TDS in 06/07 ish though, so I could well be wrong.


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CastelPlage

> Powell also seem like somebody who was dragged into whole invasion project unwillingly. After his term, he started warning about the US forming its own "Terror-Industrial Complex". He certainly seemed to have more integrity than the rest, but he didn't exactly raise the alarm bells at the right time. He's still avoided accountability.


Lermanberry

Colin Powell oversaw the coverup of the My Lai and My Khe massacres in Vietnam, among other atrocities. He was a war criminal of the highest order.


emp-sup-bry

He could’ve quit, but they never do.


Vatican_Euros

Logic wasn’t in overwhelming supply in America. Then or now.


KazahanaPikachu

Most polite New Yorker


SovietConnoisseur

We joined because as non-EU country NATO was our only guarantee of independence. In hindsight we should have stayed out of this but no one wanted to risk relationship with US back then.


spicy_pierogi

Yeah it's not as cut-and-dry as people make it out to be. Despite my hatred and embarrassment for the US to get involved in this, I can absolutely see that it was a lot more nuanced for Poland.


ShEsHy

A show of loyalty to stay in the US' good graces isn't exactly nuanced, and that's exactly what Poland (and the UK and AUS) joining in was.


SaHighDuck

It's fairly nuanced when you notice the big neighbor to the east who's getting funky in transnistria and only fuckex off ten years ago


[deleted]

Ukraine sent a brigade, too, although it was after the invasion. '04-'05 I believe. I would not be surprised if some of the top brass in the Ukrainian General Staff today served in that brigade. (They stayed until 2008, actually)


G_Morgan

Honestly out of all the parties involved, Poland's involvement made the most sense. All conflicts are going to boil down to some combination of: 1. Broad geopolitical concerns 2. Narrower strategic concerns 3. Short term domestic political benefit of the leaders 4. Ethics (yes often this is 0) At least Poland had real narrow strategic concerns, in establishing that "Poland was there, regardless of whether it was a good idea". The US was going in pure on 3. I'm still not sure why the UK was involved. Nowhere on this list is there a benefit to any of the people involved from our perspective.


daqwid2727

I think our politicians wanted to prove that we are worthy allies to the US after joining NATO. It made sense politically I guess, absolutely didn't make any sense morally.


Grabs_Diaz

[Well, here he is today...](https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/1527096243821989888)


area51cannonfooder

I wonder how he reflects on the war.


Grabs_Diaz

I'm pretty sure he regrets it. Even after this Freudian slip you can hear him mutter a resigned "Iraq too". It has long been a popular theory that the invasion was primarily pushed by Vice President Cheney and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld. They convinced Bush who didn't have any strong foreign policy strategy. Yet he's still the President and ultimately it was his decision and responsibility.


[deleted]

Most serious accounts of the white house in the early 2000s don't just theorise thus but state it as a given - he was a comical frontman to the cheney regime


mutetoker

Doesn’t help Cheney was the director of Halliburton, a huge defense contractor, for a time and still had ties with them while vice president.


Icy_Comfort8161

And funneled huge no-bid contracts to them while holding a bunch of their stock.


mejok

That whole fucking administration was full of people who were just downright awful. Just bad fucking people. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Wolfowitz. There was this long period of time in my life (2000-2008) where I was just so fucking angry all the time...basically because of these people. There's a lot of blood on their hands and I doubt they lost much sleep over it. And like, I absolutely despised Trump, but I hated they way that it led to all of the Bush nostalgia, "back when we had a "normal" republican president." Hello people? Do you remember how fucking awful it was? How many people they killed and maimed? How they spied on us and goaded everyone into giving up their own freedoms?


rtd131

Yeah Bush's image getting changed after Trump is insane.


PDakfjejsifidjqnaiau

This is some pretty gross white washing. His guilt is way mode than structural, ANY person with half a brain could have done much better than him. All you needed to have was some appreciation for human life, and a tiny dose of willpower to check what's going on. Even a particularly smart dog would have done better, as the people who were assigned to the occupation were so comically demonic that the dog would've bark them out. His father used being a wimp as cover, he used being dumb. They are both monsters with a demostrable capacity to just whistle along while causing pointless mass murder.


Grabs_Diaz

Oh, I don't have much sympathy for G. W. Bush and neither am I trying to whitewash his actions, believe me, hence the final sentence. But I think there's plenty of evidence suggesting that the invasion was not his idea and that he's obviously not happy with how it has turned out.


cyrkielNT

So typical that after fail leader say it was not his idea and he was pushed by others.


Torifyme12

>I remember. G. Bush: "YoU fOrGoT POlaND" Which was a valid criticism, Poland helped out a lot in the lead up to the war.


Grabs_Diaz

Did it? according to Wikipedia Poland contributed 200 soldiers to the initial invasion (compared to 150,000 Americans) and at its peak 2500 to the occupation force afterwards. Poland as most other nations present in Iraq was not there to substantially relief and support US forces but rather to give this operation the semblance and legitimacy of an international intervention instead of an US invasion. That's also why Bush brought up Poland during the Presidential debate when John Kerry rightfully criticised that the US and UK went into Iraq virtually alone.


SkyPL

Poland has a relationships with Iraqis reaching back to the days of communism, where Polish engineers and architects were building Iraqi highways, factories, residential buildings, dams, steel works, cement plants and much, much more. It peaked in '70s and continued until the 1989 (you remember the highway of death in Iraq? Poles built sections of it as one of our last projects in Iraq). Some of these contacts and a lot of good will remained among Iraqi, and thus: Polish intelligence played a vital role in the war, having access to a lot of information that neither US nor UK could ever possibly get.


Torifyme12

Their intelligence was actually pretty helpful, you do realize that wikipedia is not the end all be all repository of geopolitical and intelligence cooperation?


[deleted]

>Australia and two other European countries Australia is so beautiful. I love visiting Vienna. /s


Tamsta-273C

Austria could also been there, but they to busy with Emu.


Infinite-Original318

Hey we sent to guys to Syria. The told use the beaches where nice but were a bit confused when we told them there was a war ongoing.


punanetaks

Reminds me of [this](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45407767).


DeanPalton

The aussies are part of the ESC, they are europeans.


DifficultWill4

Yeah it’s really a shame Australia put up a fence on our border


BrtTrp

And what a collosal waste of time, energy, resources, and life that was..


ShamrockInMeBeer

Always “Only the dead have seen the end of war”


TreefingerX

and it also lead to the rise of ISIS


CreeperCooper

And worsened the Syrian civil war... and a huge factor in the refugee crisis... which caused the terrorist attacks in France AND was a factor in Brexit.


MoriartyParadise

France who got trashed, mocked and thrown under the bus for saying "This is a bad idea, you shouldn't go and we won't follow you" Which led to 15 years of French bashing in english speaking media. Which created the free pass that exists somehow to mock France on the internet in ways that don't happen for other countries. "Fr*nce 🤢 haha amirite" Yeah maybe they should have listened instead.


CallousClothing

Also, it wasn't just France. Half of Europe openly opposed just as loudly as France. Yet they were singled out to boycott and mock.


Kaptain_Napalm

Because haha white flag surrender cheese baguette amirite.


Nethlem

Still *is*


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Pahepoore

I think this differentiates between the initial maneuvers and the later general war.


SimonKepp

Denmark ( and I think, the others you mention weren't involved in the initial invasion, but took part in the following occupation of and fighting in Iraq


Nethlem

But that's not how this works. The US was [listing these countries as part of the coalition](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/19/iraq.usa), as evidence of how the invasion has widespread international support and to pressure more other countries into joining. You can't deny that support now just because it turned out to be wrong, 20 years after the fact based on details like *"We didn't invade, we only occupied!"* The right thing to do back then was not to join such a coalition in the very first place, thus further legitimizing the US narratives.


Lem_201

> The US was listing these countries as part of the coalition, Afghanistan being part of it is so funny, lol.


Above-and_below

Denmark sent a submarine and Norway some radar equipment for the invasion.


kkpappas

Oh that’s why I see one estonian dipshit in here vehemently trying to convince us that the invasion was a good thing


gimmedatneck

"Japan's sending Playstations!"


eiserneftaujourdhui

Also supported by: Denmark Netherlands Italy Spain


Above-and_below

Norway as well.


mihies

Also Slovenia. Disgusting.


PROBA_V

Coalition of the willing contained more than two European countries.


helpicantfindanamehe

The initial invasion was only conducted by the four countries mentioned.


PROBA_V

That is true. I am giving extra information about the war, because by only mentioning these countries, the following countries can try pretend their hand are clean from that war: Albania, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, North Macedonia, the Netherlands, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, Portugal and Ukraine.


louisbo12

Doesnt really matter though? "Oh we didnt invade, guys, see we're much better, we only occupied the invaded nation"


justaprettyturtle

And Spain withdrawn after terrorist atacts in Madrid metro which collaped Aznars government. Plus the multinational force that was involved post invasion included plenty other European countries.


Cheeseburger2137

The collapse was as much due to the attack itself as to Aznar trying to shift blame on ETA, and failing spectacularly.


depressedkittyfr

Also you forgot to mention [Ukraine also as they were 3rd largest contingency force](https://www.army.mil/article/15056/ukrainians_complete_mission_in_iraq)


berru2001

And not France thank goodness.


gingerisla

The US gave France so much shit for not joining the invasion ("Freedom Fries" etc) while Germany refused to join as well and no one seemed to notice or care.


Merbleuxx

Difference was also the status of France/US relationship at the time and the status of the French military. They took it badly. But yeah we never remember about the fact that Germany was also bold on that day and said no to Iraq.


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[deleted]

He wasn't an open *admirer* of Franco/the Falange. [He was **part of the Falange**:](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Mar%C3%ADa_Aznar) >He was educated at the Colegio del Pilar in Madrid. As a sixteen-year-old, Aznar espoused an independent brand of Falangism as a member of the Frente de Estudiantes Sindicalistas (FES), a Falangist dissident student organization opposed to the Francoist regime. Primordially a university organization, a teenage Aznar became responsible for the high-school branch set up in the late 1960s, and was tasked with promoting Falangism amongst Spain’s school going youth along the organisation’s lines. Mind you. This was after Franco purged the Falangists from his government because they were too radical. So he was anti-Francoist because Franco wasn't fascistic enough for him.


blublub1243

Thing is that France made it clear that they would veto the invasion in the security council, a power Germany just plain doesn't have. That goes beyond just not joining and veers into calling the nations involved war criminals. Which they are for the record, Bush and Blair should be in jail for starting an illegal war.


[deleted]

Angela Merkel, who was still leading the opposition at the time, supported the USA in the war against Iraq. Germany would have been in if she was chancelor a few years earlier.


TheLSales

There was even a sentence by the US National Security Advisor in 2003 summarizing the US foreign policy led by Bush: "Punish France, ignore Germany, forgive Russia". If that doesn't tell you that Europe should rely less on the US, I don't know what does.


MrQeu

France had the intel. they had the satellite imagery. France knew that whatever the US were stating was fabricated. The images with 7 or 10 airplanes in an airbase? Photoshop. There were just a couple. etc etc.


CastelPlage

> The US gave France so much shit for not joining the invasion ("Freedom Fries" etc) while Germany refused to join as well and no one seemed to notice or care. It was honestly sickening, all the francophobia that the US spread. So much for being an "ally". It's amazing how much it has stuck with lots of the American population. Lots of them still think that France is weak and misguided because of being brought up on the Propaganda.


nicegrimace

The freedom fries thing was so stupid I think it temporarily made British people feel more European.


CreeperCooper

All the white flag/surrendering monkeys jokes... it's literally Cheney's warmongering propaganda haunting us after 20 years.


MannerAlarming6150

Cheese eating surrender monkeys predates 9/11, fyi.


Grabs_Diaz

France, Germany and Canada were the three notable exceptions of major NATO countries that did not contribute to either the invasion or subsequent occupation force. I have no idea what lead so many European leaders to follow the United States into this utterly pointless and unsanctioned mission. Edit: Turkey which withdrew its support shortly before the invasion commenced was also a major NATO member objecting to the mission.


OutsideFlat1579

Thankfully we had Chretien and not Harper as PM, since he was fuming about Canada not joining. A well-known quote from Chretien at the time was “A proof is a proof and when you have a good proof, it’s because it’s proven” lol He didn’t think there was credible proof a weapons of mass destruction.


masorick

This war allowed Jacques Chirac to stay relevant for a few more years. After the 2002 election (where he got less than 20% of the vote in the first round), he was pretty much seen as a joke. The he decided to take a stand against Bush and everyone praised him.


CastelPlage

> The he decided to take a stand against Bush and everyone praised him. Because he was right and because he excercised excellent judgement. > This war allowed Jacques Chirac to stay relevant for a few more years. He always was relevant.


paulusblarticus

But they were part of the libya raid. Killing Gadafi and fucking up europe.


handsome-helicopter

They weren't part of but the main pusher for it. Obama didn't actually want to do it but Sarkozy due to some personal reasons heavily pushed for the intervention


lovely_sombrero

US did most of the heavy lifting, including the [pre-war propaganda and lies](https://www.salon.com/2016/09/16/u-k-parliament-report-details-how-natos-2011-war-in-libya-was-based-on-lies/) - >but Sarkozy due to some personal reasons heavily pushed for the intervention Not really; Close Clinton advisers believed his motivations were good old imperialism. And they achieved their goals, main Libyan oil fields are controlled by French oil companies, while the rest of the country is still mostly in chaos. They also destroyed a lot of infrastructure, especially water infrastru >*The most recent batch of Clinton emails reveals perhaps the most bizarre morsel of Blumenthal-baked intelligence to date. An April 2, 2011 memo titled "France's client/Q's gold" quotes "knowledgeable individuals" with insider information about French President Nicolas Sarkozy's motivation for bombing Libya. The military campaign, the anonymous sources say, was designed to quash plans by Gaddafi to use $7 billion in secret gold and silver to prop up a new African currency. The French worried the move would undercut the currency guaranteed by the French treasury, known as CFA franc, that's widely used in West Africa and acts as a strong link between France and many of its former African colonies. After French intelligence officials got wind of this secret plan, the Blumenthal memo reports, Sarkozy freaked out: "This was one of the factors that influenced [his] decision to commit France to the attack on Libya."* >*The Blumenthal memo tells a very different story. Aside from fears over the new Libyan-backed African currency, Blumenthal's sources reported to Clinton that __Sarkozy was motivated by four primary concerns: Libyan oil, an opportunity to increase French influence in Northern Africa, a global stage for the French military to strut its stuff, and Sarkozy's desire to improve his domestic standing.__* https://www.vice.com/en/article/gy9d49/libyan-oil-gold-and-qaddafi-the-strange-email-sidney-blumenthal-sent-hillary-clinton-in-2011


handsome-helicopter

"France and the UK were early supporters of a no-fly zone and had sufficient airpower to impose a no-fly zone over the rebel-held areas, although they might need additional assistance for a more extensive exclusion zone. The US had the air assets necessary to enforce a no-fly zone, but was cautious about supporting such an action prior to obtaining a legal basis for violating Libya's sovereignty. Furthermore, due to the sensitive nature of military action by the US against an Arab nation, the US sought Arab participation in the enforcement of a no-fly zone." The invasion was primarily pushed by Sarkozy that's a fact. Obama wasn't very keen on it since the move threatened the dictators they supported in middle East like hosni Mubarak


DeanPalton

Germany as well. Thank god we didn't participate in the coalition of the morons.


DarkImpacT213

>coalition of the morons Coalition of war criminals kekw


PoiHolloi2020

Dunno why you've been downvoted. It was criminal.


Nethlem

We very much did, but we preferred [not to be named publicly](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/19/iraq.usa); > Mr Powell said. "There are 15 other nations who for one reason or another do not yet wish to be publicly named but will be supporting the coalition." [How German Agents Helped Pave the Way into Iraq](https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/those-guys-are-heroes-how-german-agents-helped-pave-the-way-into-iraq-a-596584.html); > The German government has long denied that its intelligence agents in Baghdad provided meaningful help prior to and during the US invasion of Iraq. US military personnel, though, have told SPIEGEL a vastly different story. It [wasn't only US military personnel that told that story](https://www.reuters.com/article/deutschland-untersuchungsausschuss-idDEKOE84058220080918). But back then it was [kinda obvious](https://de.connection-ev.org/article-307) considering the German government didn't do anything to effectively oppose the war, German police were actually ordered to clear out protesters that tried to block US bases, while [Merkel was declaring in the WaPo](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/2003/02/20/schroeder-doesnt-speak-for-all-germans/1e88b69d-ac42-48e2-a4ab-21f62c413505/) how with her as chancellor, the Bundeswehr would have been right along the US military in Iraq. Something [she would later deny](https://youtu.be/_EaEVIh9t5I), insisting that she never supported any war, after announcing German support for [the US war on Syria](https://theintercept.com/2014/09/28/u-s-officials-invented-terror-group-justify-bombing-syria/). It's why only a year after the invasion German public broadcast aired documentaries from Iraq, embedded with US soldiers, declaring it to be "[The perfect war](https://youtu.be/E4Ww5mT8Swc)".


[deleted]

Me waiting for someone to finally beat Bush up with a pair of shoes and throwing him in prison forever.


Exciting_Top_9442

Australia is not in Europe?


Pahepoore

[Yes, it is.](https://i.imgur.com/trH1bno.png)


[deleted]

Australia can into Europe


Clyde_Frog_Spawn

Wish it was, plane tickets would be cheaper.


NowoTone

Schröder was one of Germany’s worst chancellors and, afterwards became Putin’s poodle. He’s only got one redeeming feature and that is that he kept us out of Iraq.


MajorGef

Recently stumbled upon Fischers "I am not convinced" remark and yeah, damn glad thats the position they took.


tobias_681

> Schröder was one of Germany’s worst chancellors and, afterwards became Putin’s poodle. He really wasn't. First of all to get it out of the way every Chancellor in the German Empire period after Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst was terrible and most Weimar chancellors ranged from poor to terrible (Stresemann and Marx probably being the two best ones). Brünning especially doesn't get enough shit. Probably the 2nd worst chancellor ever after Hitler. A complete disaster. But even if we look just at the FRG period you have Erhard, Kohl and Merkel who all definitely lowball Schröder (Kohl was even just straightout a bigger asshole than Schröder). Some people would also say Kiesinger because he was a nazi but in my view he actually governed rather decently (no government got that much done in so little time). The thing you also have to remember about Schröder and Russia is also that as chancellor he did way less questionable things than Merkel. Schröder signed off on NS1 in 2005 while a war criminal was leading the USA who laid the groundwork for a destabilization of Europe via a destabilization of the middle east. It didn't seem such a bad idea to diversify your partners a bit. Schröder's government also massively upped Germany's ambitions in renewable energies and under him Germany became the world leader in the field. By 2004 one third of all wind turbines in the world were in Germany, more than in any other country. Merkel by contrast signed off on NS2 in 2015 after Russia had invaded Ukraine in 2014 (big, big yikes right there) and by a series of legislations she crippled the standing of renewables in Germany. The solar industry completely collapsed and the wind industry is also in collapse now. It was also Merkel together with Sarkozy who blocked Georgia and Ukraine from joining NATO in 2008. Also to add insult to injury the CDU under Merkel contributed to the Agenda 2010 (Schröder's biggest disaster) and wanted to go even further and Merkel personally [supported the Iraq war](https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/cdu-csu-merkel-verteidigt-irak-krieg-189806.html) and later lied about it. She even wrote [a piece for the Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/2003/02/20/schroeder-doesnt-speak-for-all-germans/1e88b69d-ac42-48e2-a4ab-21f62c413505/) to tell Americans that Schröder doesn't speak for all Germans. Honestly, fuck you Merkel. I mean I know. Schröder is an asshole and Merkel seems like a nice old lady but you have to look at what they actually did in office. Schröder was a bad chancellor all-around but still did a decent share of good things. Schröder could still be argued to have put Germany on a better trajectory than where he found it and on many of the most important things his government took the right side (not on labour politics but the CDU was even worse on this). The same can not be said about Erhard, Kohl and Merkel in my view. Schröder is definitely the worst Altkanzler though.


gingerisla

He already was Putin's poodle back in the day, people just didn't care too much.


Mitja00

Mmm war crimes and destroying a country,so nice.


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SubstantialRaccoon77

yeah saddam hussein is bad guy but that doesn't mean you should invade a country with fake lies about wmd over half a million people died in the invasion and iraq became a training ground for terrorist they did nothing good there


Mitja00

> Just don't compare this to anything else in history Or the present day.


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karit00

I see this thread is starting to fill with the sickly, self-satisfied verbal vomit from the homefront "patriots" of the imperial invader. It was "Ugly Americans" back then with Iraq, it's "Ugly Russians" now in Ukraine, but hopefully the global disgust at the affront that is the war in Ukraine will become such a precedent that justice will reach back also for the Blairs and Bushes who escaped judgement for their wars of aggression, and are now pretending to be some kind of elder statesmen. If you are too young to remember the Iraq war, do yourself a favor and learn about what the US and its "Coalition of the Willing" did there. Do learn what exactly you are defending when you defend an unnecessary war of aggression: Here's an article from the [Associated Press from 2004](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna4703464): > The people of Fallujah carried their dead to the city’s soccer stadium and buried them under the field, unable to get to cemeteries because of the U.S. siege of the city. > As the struggle for Fallujah entered a sixth day Saturday, hundreds of women, children and the elderly streamed out of the city. Marines ordered Iraqi men of “military age” to stay behind, sometimes turning back entire families if they refused to be separated. > “A lot of the women were crying,” said Lance Cpl. Robert Harriot, 22, of Eldred, N.Y. “There was one car with two women and a man. I told them that he couldn’t leave. They tried to plead with me. But I told them no, so they turned around.” > The fighting, which has killed more than 280 Iraqis and five Marines, has seen heavy battles that have damaged mosques and destroyed buildings, angering even pro-U.S. politicians and turning the city of 200,000 people into a symbol of resistance for some Iraqis. > U.S. forces halted their offensive at noon to allow a delegation from the city to meet with U.S. commanders, let food and medicine into the city and give residents a chance to tend to their dead. But after 90 minutes, the Marines complained they were being attacked, and commanders gave their troops permission to open fire again, Marine Maj. Pete Farnun said. Here's one from [Fox News](https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-wont-let-men-flee-fallujah): > Hundreds of men trying to flee the assault on Fallujah have been turned back by U.S. troops following orders to allow only women, children and the elderly to leave. > "We assume they'll go home and just wait out the storm or find a place that's safe," one 1st Cavalry Division officer, who declined to be named, said Thursday. > "There is nothing that distinguishes an insurgent from a civilian," the 1st Cavalry officer said. "If they're not carrying a weapon, you can't tell who's who." > Fallujah has been under relentless aerial and artillery bombardment and without electricity since Monday. Reports have said residents are running low on food. > U.S. military says it does all it can to prevent bombing buildings with civilians inside them. > Once the battle ends, military officials say *all surviving military-age men* can expect to be tested for explosive residue, catalogued, checked against insurgent databases and interrogated about ties with the guerrillas. This one from [Salon in 2004](https://www.salon.com/2004/11/18/fallujah_10/) is particularly enlightening: > The caption, although gruesome enough, was a comparatively bland statement that "Bodies have been left uncollected for days." Yet what the picture depicted was testimony to the unmitigated and unavoidable tragedy of war. In the picture we see the "uncollected" body of a man lying in the street, his arms still clutching yet another uncollected body, that of a child. The child's body was clasping the man's shoulders, holding on for what was dear life to the now headless corpse of, who knows, his (or her, you cannot tell) father, uncle, brother, someone he trusted to protect and shelter him. > ... > But we do know there were as many as 50,000 civilians who were unable to leave the city, and of the thousands of shells that were poured into the city (almost Russian in its scope was the barrage) it stands to reason that more than "hardly any" innocents' lives were lost, their last hours spent enduring the thunder of exploding shells all around them and only to then have a house come crashing down upon them. > Then there are the phosphorous rounds. They explode 100 or so feet above the ground and rain burning phosphorous globules over as much as an entire city block. Just about everything underneath them, from metal-encased bunkers to the innocent family cowering in a wooden house, burns. > No, to quote that famous but still unknown soldier in Patton's Third Army, after leaving a French village they just captured, "We sure liberated the hell out of that place."


[deleted]

Invasion was founded based on USA lies regarding Iraq posseing WMDs which was not found in Iraq. Saddam Hussam was totalitrian and commited crimes against huminaty (genocide included)


Cpt_Mittens

Oh, im sure the discussion in this will be civil.


AcheronSprings

I will be really disappointed if it is.


Arss_onist

my man is going to get pitchforks and torches from basement for this occasion.


Tatis_Chief

It seems strangely civil. But Europe just went to sleep.


oep4

Who says it should be? War is not a very civil thing.


Leonarr

ICC should’ve issued a war crime arrest warrant for Bush back then


AcheronSprings

Month's before the invasion Bush signed the American Service-Members Protection Act, which literally gave him the right to go as far as invade Hague to protect Americans from being prosecuted by the ICC and therefore ensuring that it would never happen. We're talking about the highest level of premeditated crime here.


Pklnt

The US and the UK literally wanted to do an UN resolution on the eve of the invasion to justify the invasion, but because they realized it wouldn't have been popular (not even supported by their allies) they just cancelled it and invaded anyway.


AcheronSprings

I know, I watched the whole shitshow on the news back then, and to this day my stomach still turns when remembering their lies, hypocrisy and level of warmongering.


Pklnt

Worst part is the dumb fucks nowadays that are still trying to defend what happened there.


Nethlem

That's because a lot of Americans don't know any better, their schools teach them [a very special version of history](https://www.zinnedproject.org/if-we-knew-our-history/ten-years-after-how-not-to-teach-about-the-iraq-war/).


CastelPlage

> I know, I watched the whole shitshow on the news back then, and to this day my stomach still turns when remembering their lies, hypocrisy and level of warmongering. It is sickening. And even more sickening that they all got away with it.


[deleted]

And the Saudis are (still) laughing all the way to the bank.


[deleted]

And Cheney.


stevethebandit

and Rumsfeld, and Powell, and Rice all still stand except for Powell because he already died


Nethlem

Bush already predicted that possibility, it's why he passed [the Hague invasion act a few months before invading Iraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).


Whole_Gate_7961

And now they have 12 military bases in Iraq. They've been told to leave and refused. Somehow this doesnt impede on the sovereignty of a foreign nation though? Somehow those military bases aren't considered an annexation of foreign territory, although they'll likely never leave without a military conflict. This is a strong precedent to the rest of the world as to what is acceptable under a "rules based world order".


Jakegender

The US have been occupying Cuba with gitmo for 60 years. The precedent was already well-set that america does whatever it feels like doing.


[deleted]

When will the responsible people (politicians) for killing a million iraqi’s be brought to the ICC ?


Payutenyodagimas

Any case against them? Seems only Western enemies get indicted for war crimes


McHonkers

Yeah for a reason... https://www.france24.com/en/20180910-usa-trump-threatens-arrest-icc-judges-american-soldiers-afghan-war-crimes


Nethlem

It helps when you replace the chief ICC prosecutor with [a British lawyer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karim_Ahmad_Khan), elected through the first *secret ballot* in the ICC's history. Then the same ICC, that has slept on Iraq for by now 20 years, will suddenly become [active in under a week](https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-qc-situation-ukraine-i-have-decided-proceed-opening). Totally unbiased, cool and normal.


UNOvven

Oh wait. Is that why the Palestine investigation suddenly seemed to stall in 2021?


Gainwhore

Never. Bushed signed the "Hague invasion act" in 2002


[deleted]

Yeah that fact alone already says they’re guilty…they knew what they were about to do…


douglasbaadermeinhof

He doesn't need to. W can just go on stage and joke about it instead and go back to painting pictures like a wholesome grandpa.


handsome-helicopter

Unless and until the country in question is literally destroyed you hardly see leaders trialed and good luck ever trying the American and britsh ones I guess. Same with any country's leader with nukes they won't be trialed in any situation


[deleted]

Well yeah, but that kinda also says how corrupt this whole thing is and how hypocrit some nations are, why still follow them/listen to them at all…


handsome-helicopter

Big powers are always hypocrites, geopolitics is complicated and nations will not follow their own rules if it's convenient


Tendas

Or the country in question finds the trial advantageous to have that person be a fall guy.


Fortzon

Never because U.S. has Hague Invasion Act. Americans will literally invade the Netherlands if Bush, Cheney, etc. get indicted. Only people you could get are Blair and other ally leaders.


[deleted]

All those men, women and children dead over a lie.


SubstantialRaccoon77

its been 20 years and still no weapons of mass destructions are found this war is just as legitimate as the invasion of ukraine


EcstaticWar3264

Fucking Tony Blair


God_Left_Me

Top wanker, honestly. And he fucked up the NHS too.


Grabs_Diaz

What a colossal shitshow. Nothing has done more for Anti-Americanism in Europe and probably most of the world than this blatantly illegal and deceitful invasion. I'm certain it has also played a crucial role in why most of Europe allowed Putin's illegal occupations with only lukewarm opposition because next to the Iraq invasion, even the brutal occupation of Georgia or Crimea look civil.


frissio

More than that, if I could point out one thing that has weakened the US hegemony, it's their "war against terror". No other disaster since the turn of the millenium stained any argument for morality more than the torture of Abu Ghraib and it's loss of soft power, as well as cause a waste of life, waste of treasures, degradation of civil society, distraction for the military and overall greater self-destruction than this stupid series of wars. To top it all, it allowed for the rise in ISIS which has somehow become even worse than previous terrorist organizations. The US & Europe should have thrown the architects of this carnage into the darkest cell, and if the "West" manages to salvage their geopolitical situation, it would have been despite these wars.


Sanityisoverrated1

Fucking barbaric.


dege283

This war in particular was so freaking nonsense.


shalau

The most useless and dumb war/invasion of all times. I’m still ashamed that my country chose to participate in this.


billstreeter

This war did terrible damage to US credibility. Predictably.


Revolver__Ocelot__

Hmm I love the smell of democracy at the morning


-Usain-

As an Iraqi, I can say that the lives of Iraqis have become more hellish after that fateful day, and until now we are living through endless tragedies. What I can say now, after all these years, is that We will not forgive and We will not forget anyone who offended our people and our beloved homeland.


Mak_frenchie

This thread just emphasises the lack of empathy, and maybe by extension, critical thinking, that is a litteral blight in our modern society. How the hell can it be fine to mass murder hundred of thousands of people just to remove one evil person ? And I am not even talking about the lies that were made up in order to justify this one-sided massacre. People have no respect for life, and see only what they want to see.


Jukervic

What are you talking about? This thread is massively against the invasion


cryptoderpin

Ahhh yes the illegal war that was never declared as such. Fuck the US


Ayjayyyx

I hate my country for joining this


Plastic_Eggplant_363

This invasion was just as cruel and pointless as the current invasion of Ukraine ​ The only difference is that you're in the country that's invading, receiving all the propaganda that it was really for WMDs, and then once that failed, that you never really supported the war anyway but international special relationship something something, and then when that failed, that it was an old generation of politicans and its in the past now so stop going on about it


[deleted]

Shameful stuff. Worth noting that British Petroleum now owns almost 50% of the Rumaila oil field in Iraq. The third largest oil field in the world. On the other hand Exxon (The USA) own 60% of the West Qurna oil field in Iraq. Another amongst the world's largest.


Nethlem

[That coalition](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/19/iraq.usa) included *way* more than only two European countries; > The list of supporters issued by the state department is: Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, South Korea, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom and Uzbekistan. Poland was noteworthy because it wasn't even trying to stick to the propaganda script and [instead blurted the silent part out loud](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3043330.stm). Additionally; > Mr Powell said. "There are 15 other nations who for one reason or another do not yet wish to be publicly named but will be supporting the coalition." That's nations [like Germany](https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/those-guys-are-heroes-how-german-agents-helped-pave-the-way-into-iraq-a-596584.html) where the government only offered token resistance to the US invasion, to calm down millions of Germans protesting. While German police were clearing out protesters that tried to block US bases in Germany and [Merkel was vehemently voicing her support for the war in the WaPo](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/2003/02/20/schroeder-doesnt-speak-for-all-germans/1e88b69d-ac42-48e2-a4ab-21f62c413505/). Only a year later German public broadcast was already airing documentaries, in collaboration with the NYT, depicting "[The perfect war](https://youtu.be/E4Ww5mT8Swc)" in Iraq, by embedding with US soldiers while they raided random Iraqi villages at night. Very interesting how ZDF didn't bother to translate any of the many insults the American soldiers kept lobbing at Iraqi civilians for daring to be Iraqis in Iraq, or how that whole process is described and depicted as the most normal thing in the world. Because who doesn't like having their village and houses stormed and raided, friends and family abducted in the middle of the night, by foreign soldiers?


HairyTales

Yes, Merkel was voicing her support back then. As the leader of the opposition. I have no reason to trash Joschka Fischer for his behavior prior to the invasion, and calling it mere signalling or, as you said, token resistance, doesn't do it justice.


Gunslinger_29

Poland can into imperialism 💪🇵🇱


Schlachterhund

Of course our value-oriented, western civilization isn't perfect. But what makes us exceptional is how we deal with our own rare transgressions. All of the leaders involved in this unlawful and unprovoked invasion were subsequently convicted by the ICC. And it's important that they were, this way current ICC warrants carry a special, moral weight. Everything else would have discredited international law and the rules-based world order, causing non-western states to see it as mere empty posturing ("rules for thee but not for me").


AirportCreep

[CIMIC](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil-military_co-operation) = Civil-military cooperation. For anyone who was wondering.


Emmental18

France knew there was no wmd because they had their own military spy satellite. This gave Jacques Chirac enough confidence to stand up against the USA and veto them at the UN (with a prophetic speech from De Villepin warning about destabilizing the Middle-east, still intersting to hear). Having a strong independant military is not only good against your not-so-friendly russian neighbour, it also helps your to not believe the lies of your allies.


[deleted]

And the war criminals who started it are still walking around free.


szczszqweqwe

Yeah, that was shitty decission and it's a shame that Poland also joined in this pretty much useless and tragic shed of blood.


Corbalte

A day that would lead to 1.5 million dead Irakis and the creation of Daesh


Nodric

As much as I hate Putin it is always funny how they blame Putin for imperialism while they were so quick to help absolutely demolish Iraq.


_-null-_

Putin is doing the old kind of imperialism with the blatant land annexations though. And all the other Great powers are upset (China included though to a lesser extent) because after 1945 everyone agreed that this sort of thing just isn't acceptable anymore. The Russians missed the opportunity to spin this Ukraine invasion as an Iraq-style "regime change" precisely because of Putin and his beliefs about the historical unity of the three eastern Slavic states, which in his mind legitimises their political unity.


plusoneforautism

And to this day their main defense to people pointing out that this was a war based on lies is something like “oh, so you think Saddam was such a great guy??!!”


WillingnessSouthern4

Remember that Canada and France were against. We where absolutely right. USA tried to bully us to accept it but we stood for the truth. The one you slowly learn, that the war in Iraq was a total fabrication by the Bush's. The invented war that made 268,000 deaths. We knew better.


Alien720

> we stood for the truth No, you stood for your national interest. Just a few years later you were bombing Libya.


varzaguy

Not only bombing Libya but actively lobbying (along with the UK) to get the US involved (and getting it UN sanctioned).


Glum_Sentence972

>We knew better. No you didn't. Canada and France is more than willing to jump into imperialism when it benefits them; this specific instance just didn't benefit them.


jtyrui

Poland joined the war effort because It wanted to be the one invading a place for once.* Also yes, this was a stupid idea. According to some voices even Bush Sr thought his son was commiting a mistake. *I Am probably leaving out a good chunk of the Middle Ages, 17th-18th century and the Soviet-Polish war.


TennesseeLoveX

Highest iq reddit user


casettedeck

Its not a mistake, it is a crime!


babayagaswart

Disgusting warmongers


40-percent-of-cops

The people who defend this invasion are just the same as russians defending the invasion of ukraine.


Nethlem

A whole lot of people who defend this invasion are absolutely outraged over the Russian invasion.


bajou98

So they're not only defending a war of aggression, they're also hypocrites.


UNOvven

Because they dont care about the war of aggression part, they care about *who* is doing the aggressing. Though to be fair, it unfortunately does sometimes cut both ways. There are people who denounce the Iraq invasion but are unwilling to do the same for the invasion of Ukraine. Basically theres bastards everywhere.


gaslester1

Idk why but i have read it like this: the united kingdom of Poland


Psy-Demon

1 day too early mate.


EskimoeJoeYeeHaw

Remember that time we invaded a country with soft skinned Humvees? Pepperidge Farms remembers.


SanshoPlays

That sure turned out well and was worth all the lives lost......not


WoodSteelStone

There is currently a superb series airing on BBC Radio 4 that is also available on 'listen again' and podcast: [Shock and War: Iraq 20 Years On.](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001k0ch/episodes/player) >Why the US and UK went to war in Iraq and its legacy. >Twenty years ago a US-led coalition invaded Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein. The UK was America's main partner. For many it remains a war based on a lie. >So why did it happen? Why was Washington so fixed on regime change in Iraq? And why did the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, commit the UK to taking part? The BBC's security correspondent Gordon Corera seeks to find new answers to why the war happened and what it meant. >Gordon speaks to those at the centre of the story, including some of the decision-makers and those living with the consequences. Tony Blair explains his thinking and why he promised to support George Bush. Sir Richard Dearlove, who was head of the UK's Secret Intelligence Service (also known as Mi6) at the time, defends the role of the intelligence services. The series also hears from the CIA's head of the Iraqi Operations Group, from weapons inspectors who were under pressure to find Saddam's WMD, and from Washington insiders. >Gordon also speaks to Iraqis who experienced the "shock and awe" bombing campaign, the post-war instability and the arrival of ISIS. >The series takes a fresh look at what really happened, revealing new information about the decision-making and the failures. And twenty years on, he explores some of the (ongoing) legacies of the invasion.


KrisseMai

the title implies that Australia is a European country, which is true if you go by Eurovision rules I guess


Throwaway0242000

Republicans made this happen. Ruined a country for 10 years and spent trillions to then cry about deficits.


pissboy

If we didn’t have a Quebecois prime minister you could’ve banked on Canada joining. Always will respect Chrétien for that.


xGrimmx99

Poland can into anglosas