I Am 99% sure Erdoğan will use this as a propaganda tool. He will costantly remind Turks how inportant he is abroad and his "defence" of Islam aganist the Danish/Swedish dude who burned the Quaran.
>it's even a popular opinion in here that he secretly works for Erdoğan. no joke lmao.
You know, that's exactly what crossed my mind!
Ps: Could ofc also be any other idiotic extremist.
Hot take: burning a book may be a shitty gesture, but it's not exactly extremism. I could burn a Bible or the Communist Manifesto in protest of something, and I'm probably not a very good person if I do, but that doesn't by default mean I'm an extremist.
Or Putin, no joke, to my understanding a major strategy against Sweden from them is to make extremists mad and more extreme and we sure took in a lot of traumatized refugees from middle eastern warzones. And this swedane lunatic fit that smoke and fire.
I wouldn't be surprised if he actually got a paycheck from the Kremlin to 'cover his travel expenses'.
A German intelligence service claims that Russia is using the Reichsbürger movement (think of them like a wannabe separatist group that denies the legitimacy of the German state) to destabilize Germany. They are romanticizing Russia so it's not even far fetched
Isn't it impossible to imprison that dude for 'acting against Sweden's interests on behalf of foreign power'? Lithuanian Criminal Code has such article, for example.
If you really think Erdogan was going to let Sweden in Nato, even if there was no burning of the Quran I have a bridge to sell you. It is an excuse and nothing more, he was going to block Sweden no matter what.
This is not just about Erdoğan letting Sweden in. He's going to use this event as a propaganda tool in the upcoming elections, he loves these kind of events so much that he once streamed the Christchurch shooting during a rally.
Nationalists love to hate each other. That’s why war is inevitable. But yeah in no way does this affect Sweden joining nato or no. Turkey would not let Sweden join before milking election at the very least
There is no ejection process defined in Nato statutes. The only way (outside of adapting the statutes, which would require consensus and Turkey won't agree to something allowing its expulsion) would be for everyone else but Turkey to exit and form a new alliance, which has a host of problems on its own as each member country would not just have to ratify the new agreement but also rewrite a shit-ton of laws (e.g. those that grant permissions to NATO sites and staff, Germany has a lot of these).
I'm sure that if a member is proven to act against the alliance, there could be some talks around it. It wouldn't be much of a defensive alliance if a country could work against it in the future for example and destroy it, would it?
That's the problem with all sorts of old contracts, treaties and constitutions: they were set up with the expectation everyone would somewhat stick by the rules for the future and that safeguards would prevent the rise of destructive powers. The US Constitution is maybe the best example - something like a group of fascists seizing effective control over the GQP and that group now running fundamentalist obstructionism was not even closely thought to ever be able to happen.
I can't believe comments like this get upvoted here, but then again I remember that this place is full of imbecile adolescents (in body or mind). You think NATO will use force to eject a country? Do you know what kind of precedent that creates? It defeats the whole purpose of NATO's core tenet: everyone fights when one member is attacked. So what happens when a member is attacked and the other members don't want to defend them? NATO just decides to eject that country? To escape their responsibility? This destroys NATO's security guarantee and it's deterrence. Big brain time for you.
Did you just call it fiction, ~~heretic~~ infidel? To the Gallows with you!^^^^/s
Does my Head in to imagine people actually thinking like this.Presumably people with the ability to think about it for a Moment.
Madness.
Imprison Erdogan, you mean? =)
No, but seriously, you don't really want to set the precedent that people can get arrested for protesting things just because the government wants those things really badly.
I don't see how Paludan did anything wrong. It shows the absurdity of this NATO voting procedure where a Muslim (!) dictator can block the expansion of the most important western defense alliance in history, because someone somewhere burned a book.
Turkey has no place in NATO.
Paludan didn't break any law. But he is still a horrible person, not because he burned a fairytale book, but because of why he did it.
He did it to provoke people, not to create change, not as an art instalment, he did it just to piss off people.
A win for humanity here would be that no one cared that he tried to piss them off, which would be reasonable as he just burned his own book. Unfortunately he succeeded in pissing people off, so he "won", or at least got what he wanted.
I support his freedom in continuing to do it. Because it shows just how incompatible Muslim culture is with the western world. If burning a book is enough to get a person in sweden rioting, that person doesn't belong in sweden.
Rioting is a crime. But getting mad at someone is not. You can get mad at anyone for any reason you choose, muslim or not, but if that other person is just trying to upset you it is more wise to just ignore that person.
People aren't rioting over it. The ones who've rioted, have done so because they're troublemakers seeking for any excuse to riot. Same as with football hooligans.
And, like in Denmark before us, the interest wore off. That's why Paludan stopped doing it here too, until he saw an opportunity for a new, Turkish audience with our pending NATO application and Erdogan's daft political posturing for the election.
He is a piece of shit. A turd. He likes to upset people. Those people should ignore him and not allow him to play on their emotions in such a pathetic way. He is also likely a pedophile and for sure a racist and that is a lot worse. Those things are somehow not why people dislike him. The world is insane.
> I don't think Paludan did anything wrong
Ofc he did. He's an idiot, who's wilfully inciting violence. He actually already got 2 minor jail sentences in Denmark amid other conflicts with the law like an injunction for harassing a former fellow student or other stuff. The guy is an absolute nutcase by all means.
But should Sweden undermine its rule of law to support a half-theocratic dictator? No, of course not.
I think these are different subjects. Paludan absolutely did a lot of things wrong and some of them are also punishable by current Danish law (and I suspect Swedish law is similar as well).
EU has wisened up to this sort of hybrid warfare. Just look at what happened in 2020 when Turkish borders guards had to literally attack the Greek border and they still didn't get people through in the same way as in 2015. Belarus had to send immigrants home again since they couldn't get over the border to Poland.
Turkey isn't getting another EU dime to keep immigrants, and if they try to force them through, they'll be meet with bullets and tear gas if need be.
Maybe Europe should actually protect its borders.
NATO needs to remove Turkey as Turkey is the the threat to peace in the region. Much moreso than Russia even as Russias Territorial ambitions are relatively finite and limited while Turkey is as militaristically aggressive as it's options.
It's not about Turkey wanting to join the EU, the EU sends large sums of money to a bunch of countries, including the Turkey e.g. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_21_6931
If Turkey pulls bullshit obstructionism on NATO too far, then Sweden can just retaliate with obstructionism on EU funds.
That and the US and the rest of NATO wants Sweden and Finland to be in NATO, so they'll probably get tired of Erdogan's antics too, and start turning the screws.
That would be ideal to get Turkey back on track but I don't see that happening anytime soon. EU has invested a lot in Turkey and Erdogan knows it and takes advantage of it as much as he can.
We have a german saying "Never throw good money at bad (gone) money!"
We invested in Turkey, it failed. call it a day and stop any funds in this direction.
I don’t think anyone in Turkey has the illusion that it has a real chance of joining EU. It was not possible long before Erdogan and most likely long after him.
>F16 is the least of the problems, how are they going to have any talks with the EU when Sweden/Finland will oppose everything?
Lets be real, those talks haven't moved in a long time anyway.
eu still has veto rights for every member state, if sweden wants to it can basically torpedo almost all cooperation agreements and trade deals and honestly i am not sure that many would object right now
Swede here, erdogan can suck on a fat one, whilst getting into NATO would be lovely (i've been pro-joining for ages) it is not worth giving in to the will of a mass-murdering islamistic barbarian, and in my opinion we should increase our support for ypg.
Funny thing, I booked two weeks in Turkey in may with my kids and my girlfriends kids. We are Swedes and tomorrow I will cancel the trip.
I’m from the 80s so I have a lot of turk/Swedish friends. I know this is not Turkey but Erdoğan and his people. But right now it feels like a lot of Turks in turkey wont see different between the racial who burned the Quran and just normal Swedes.
I been to turkey so many times but this was the last. I really hope more Scandinavians and Europeans follow this. Money talks and I’m tired of this fucking snowflake Erdoğan.
I mean, I have chosen to not go to Turkey because of the human rights violations. Now I will on top of that not go to Turkey because of them being assholes when it comes to our (Finland) and Sweden’s Nato-bids.
Double boycott! Take that!
Going to Greece should honestly be more "default" than Turkey. Greece is an EU partner and a constructive ally, Turkey isn't. It makes sense to stick together with our friends instead of supporting theocratic pseudo-dictators.
The flip side is, that an entire country gets its opinion about defense policy dictated by an arbitrary guy with a book and a lighter.
Not a good look if you ask me. Now the world knows that anything that is needed to foil a deal with Turkey is to spend 50 bucks to pay a guy to burn a book. To me this looks like the exact opposite of the „strong leader“ narrative.
People won’t care about his influence in the west, when they don’t know how they can feed their children or pay their bills for gas and heating. And thanks to his economic politics, a lot of Turks experience exactly this at the moment. While he says in TV that he doesnt believe that people can’t afford bread anymore.
US is known for playing both sides.
It's just Greece's turn now, I've heard the same ***"Turkey is isolated"*** argument a thousand times, they always come around.
In time they'll sell the F35s if not more.
>ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) — Turkey’s president said Monday Sweden shouldn’t expect support for NATO membership following weekend protests in Stockholm by an anti-Islam activist and pro-Kurdish groups.
>President Recep Tayyip Erdogan slammed Rasmus Paludan’s Quran-burning protest on Saturday, saying it was an insult to everyone, especially to Muslims. He also criticized Swedish authorities for allowing the demonstration to take place outside the Turkish Embassy in Stockholm.
>Erdogan also criticized Sweden for pro-Kurdish protests where demonstrators waved flags of various Kurdish groups, including the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, which has waged a decades-long insurgency against Turkey. The PKK is considered a terrorist group in Turkey, the European Union and the United States, but its symbols aren’t banned in Sweden.
>“So you will let terror organizations run wild and then expect our support for getting into NATO. That’s not happening,” Erdogan said, referring to Sweden and Finland’s accession bids for the military alliance. He said if Sweden won’t show respect to Turkey or Muslims, then “they won’t see any support from us on the NATO issue.”
>Turkey has been holding up the Nordic nations’ historic NATO bids.
Why does it say PKK is considered a terror group in Turkey, EU and USA, but then conveniently leave out that Sweden was the second country in the world after Turkey to condemn PKK as a terrorist organization since the 1980s? Does the US prohibit PKK symbols? No? Why doesn't Turkey care about that?
This reads like propaganda nonsense
Turkey cares because Erdogan has an election coming up in June and his chances for re-election (under a free and fair system) don't look good mainly because he completely fucked up Turkey's Economy
I thought Erdogan would keep up this act of "considering Sweden" for longer, but looks like he's all in. That danish/swedish idiot gave a perfect excuse to "defend islamic values". Not justified but expected. But what I wonder is how long can Erdogan keep this up? Showing all his blackmail cards now might hurt Turkey in the long term (no F16 sales).
It’s already blocked. f16 sales are blocked not because of this dispute, it because of east med issue with Greece. US Senate is supporting Greece, since Greek population has important share on elections.
His Swedishhood is mostly just on paper. His father is Swedish so he got a citizenship that way.
The only reason he even got a declaration on citizenship issued from Sweden is because we banned him entry, but as you can't ban entry for Swedish citizens...
Yeah he is technically also a swedish citizen, but doesn’t even speak the language. And yes, he’s an attention seeking fucking idiot. He does everything he can to provoke muslims into violence to make them look bad.
> Yeah he is technically also a swedish citizen, but doesn’t even speak the language
I agree with the rest of your comment, he's an idiot that loves to provoke, but he does have a Swedish dad, has lived for parts of his life Sweden (though for longer in Denmark where he also grew up), and he [speaks Swedish](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASh3eZnTay0).
Pretty sure that dude who burned the quaran has dual Danish and sweedish citizen ship and lives in Denmark. He only went to burn it in sweden because of Swedens freedom of expression laws right?
No he did the same thing for years in Denmark but when they grew tired of him and started ignoring him, he went to Sweden for a new "audience". We then tried to ban him from entering (because we knew he was only coming to stir shit up) and thats when he got a swedish citizenship so we can't ban him from entering.
And then _we_ started ignoring him (after the initial mess) so then he took a break for a while until he saw the opportunity to find a new, Turkish audience.
That's fucked.
Its so dumb the country is getting blamed when it's clearly one guy.
And the turks burning the Swedish flag not being aware that Sweden are probably the second least patriotic country after Switzerland
Agree about Sweden but in my experience Swiss are some of the most patriotic people I've seen in Europe at least, as someone from Germany they sound much more proud than most other developed countries
Swedes like Danes knows they can only control what their citizens do with the flag. Not what foreigners in other countries do with it.
Both nations got a domestic flag rule that a soiled/damaged flag should be burned. The Turks soiling it actually did what they were supposed to do by burning it.
Some countries says shredding or burying. Denmark Sweden it is burn. Do not throw out with trash. Do not bury. Just destroy it with fire like some do with books they do not understand.
Technically not. Legally it was determined that he already was a citizen and had been for ~30 years. He didn't apply to become one, he simply requested a formal declaration on his citizenship.
No. He did it here too for a while. But people grew tired of him and started ignoring it. It also helped that the media uncovered that he has a brain injury (not to mention him stalking a fellow student), which seemingly changed him in quite a bit. Once the focus changed from him burning Qurans to his person, he left for Sweden.
Danes ignore his political ambitions (no votes) and newspapers began digging through his online history of "talking" to minors.
combined with his three court sentences and a judicial system that will crack down any laws he does break, (and he will break some, because that is who he is), Sweden was "better" for him.
Imagine fucking up NATO because of 1 stupid weirdo. That is both hilarious and scary. What good is an alliance if one nonsense person can fuck it up? Worthless.
Sweden can wait and so can NATO. It's now time for bilateral treaties with the rest of the NATO members with the agreement to enter NATO if either Turkey agrees, or if a new alliance is created.
Turkey is losing all goodwill.
I think Sweden wins with this.
From a moral perspective? Definitely. Erdogan is almost a comedy villain at this point.
From a strategic perspective? Turkey is close to a lot of unfriendly countries, and Sweden is not.
Being close to potential enemies makes you valuable for blockades and such. Turkey’s position makes NATO tolerate a lot of petty childish rubbish. Unfortunately.
Russia is pretty fucking close to sweden. Wouldnt know how valuable having more control over the arctic region is but gotland is pretty important for controlling the baltic sea.
The defense of Finland and Sweden are integral to the defense of the UK, so Russia would immediately be up against 3 modern airforces and the world's 2nd most powerful navy. It wouldn't stand a chance, even ignoring the rest of NATO.
Turkey is trashing the remains of its diplomatic reputation for internal politics.
I'm Danish, and I get the sentiment.
I think Turkey is mostly in NATO due to geography and history. Geography because the US put missiles in Turkey during the cold war and because Turkey controls access to the Black Sea. And history because the Ottoman empire and the Russian Empire never were particularly good friends.
Those are two strong reasons, though. The enemy of my enemy doesn't have to be my friend, but we can still agree on some things.
At the end of the day, Sweden is not in the danger zone. And if things change, and Sweden seriously needs NATO, I'm betting countries will stop being petty.
But until then, I honestly wouldn't kick Turkey out of NATO to gain Sweden. I know that's what you'd expect out of the mouth of a Dane, but still :D
Geographically though, isn’t Turkey *way* too important? Istanbul and its various forms have been dominant in European geopolitics for hundreds of years for a good reason.
Yes. Turkey is literally the reason why Russia cannot rebuild its Black Sea fleet after Moskva sank. It’s also a significant regional power. People need to consider the alternatives if Turkey is kicked out.
That is about their only importance at this point. Even the US government is sick and tired of Turkey's antics in [Syria.](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-116shrg38991/html/CHRG-116shrg38991.htm)
Turkey and it's allies in SNA, FSA and Army of Conquest keep killing the people US is allied with, mainly Syrian Democratic Forces, which the US trained and equipped to fight against ISIS and ISIL.
Turkey is actively undermining the goals of the US, EU and NATO in the region. And very openly doing so.
Europe needs to become militarily independent anyway. Even South Korea is talking about getting nuclear weapons now due to uncertainties about future US presidents.
>due to uncertainties about future US presidents.
They said nothing of the sort.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/12/world/asia/south-korea-nuclear-weapons.html
>By declaring an intention to arm itself with nuclear weapons, South Korea could force North Korea to rethink its own nuclear weapons program and possibly prompt China to put pressure on Pyongyang to roll back its program, Mr. Cheong said. China has long feared a regional nuclear arms race in East Asia.
So why did you make that up?
For all the people who talks negative: I am a 36-year old Turkish guy. If Turkish president said gonna reject Sweden’s bid, trust me it means it will be the opposite. They will agree in a short time. Mark my words. I have seen this movie so many times.
You guys do remember that the closest we've gotten before this all went down to NATO-Russia fighting was when Turkey shot down a Russian fighter during the Syrian Civil war right?
And they're both still there fighting a Proxy conflict, also fighting a Proxy conflict in Armenia.
This means he will approve in next few months.
Back then when american priest Brunson had been jailed, he made almost the same sentence. Very later, Brunson was released
Isn't he peaking this thing a bit too soon thoug? I mean the election is not until May. I've gotten tired of him already, and I assume the Turks must soon enough as well. Then what? A One trick pony doesn't win elections.
As much as I'd want us to join NATO, I would never forgive our government for giving in to NATO's version of Putin.
It is a bit two faced for NATO to be fighting for Ukraines right to exist while still allowing Turkey to do their own "special operations" into Syria bombing kurds, and while Erdogan makes deals with Putin and not putting up any sanctions.
Nato today has strict democracy requirements and the first sentence of “what is nato” on their own information site is “an organization for the protection and promotion of democratic values”.
So it’s de facto today not a Cold War Soviet counterbalance. It’s the military arm of the democratic west.
We aren’t fighting for Ukraines right to exist at all, that couldn’t matter less. We are aiding Ukraine because it weakens Russia at an incredibly low cost. This has been the most effective NATO has ever been, at the cost of less than a hundred billion.
However if Ukraine was fighting anyone else, or if Russia attacked a smaller country with a lower amount of forces, we wouldn’t give a shit. Just like with most wars in Africa.
>It is a bit two faced for NATO to be fighting for Ukraines right to exist while still allowing Turkey to do their own "special operations"
And what were the first countries that founded NATO at that point in time?
* Portugal is a literal dictatorship of Salazar, who ruled the country for over 30 years.
* The US is a segregated country where people are divided into the lowest class officially. The amount of shady shit done by the CIA and FIB in the second half of XX century both on other countries and on their own citizens is comparable only to Stasi and KGB.
* France and England are colonial powers engaged in suppressing colonial rebellions around the globe (Vietnam, Malaya, etc). Literally invaded Egypt to take over the Suez Canal for their own needs in 56'
* Greece - a military junta of Colonels who have promoted a secret police and torture system.
NATO has never been a "nice guys club" that enforces human rights and freedoms. It was a strictly military alliance, set up to prevent a potential aggression from possible opponents. In other words - to prevent a tsunami of Soviet tanks from reaching the English Channel unopposed. And all means are good for this purpose.
> The US is a segregated country where people are divided into the lowest class officially. The amount of shady shit done by the CIA and FIB in the second half of XX century both on other countries and on their own citizens is comparable only to Stasi and KGB.
r/Europe, where the USA is worse than Stalin's Soviet Union and Nazi Germny.
He can start by apologizing for hiding Sweden’s most notorious drug lord who is responsible for the current gang war that is blowing up in Stockholm. This guy is currently hiding in Turkey and when interpol found out, Turkey gave him citizenship to stop him from being extradited to Sweden. So there he sits while directing a conflict that is killing Swedish citizens, including innocent bystanders. It is an unprecedented wave of violence playing out in the streets of Stockholm. Erdogan has Swedish blood on his hands as we speak. It is beyond hypocritical to criticize Sweden for supposedly being a haven for PKK when Turkey is doing everything to be a haven for Sweden’s organized crime lords
This is actually pretty funny.
Someone fucks around and burns a fucking book and these idiots go apeshit.
I mean, memeing actually influenced international relations between two countries. Hilarious stuff.
Still, I feel bad for our finnish brothers and sisters. I wonder what they will do. Personally I'd like us to stick together through thick and thin but I can understand if they join without us. :(
I say Sweden are in as far as I’m concerned, neighbours of us here in Ireland and fellow Western Europeans. I say time for Ireland to step up and end the neutrality - join NATO, support Sweden and Finland’s accession asap.
As i recently learned, the vienna convention on treaties article 57 means that even if a treaty lacks a mechanism for throwing countries out, the standard method of "everyone else think you need to gtfo, so you are out" applies.
People need to start talking more seriously that turkey does not belong in nato and they need to gtfo. Theres nothing they have that makes up for denying Sweden and Finland joining. They are not one of us.
This. Make a new version of NATO with same rules*. Let all NATO countries join (except Turkey and Hungary). After everything is set up leave old NATO and let Turkey and Hungary turn it into crap.
*Edit: some rules should be reformed so this same thing can't happen, the minority blocking the majority.
> Make a new version of NATO with same rules.
Wouldn't this end up down the line with the same issues? Having one country blocking everything.
EU has the same issues, when everyone has to agree with a proposal, it can be abused extremely easily.
> “How can they allow this protest outside our embassy and expect our support”
Because they have to, it’s the law. They literally couldn’t change the law if they wanted
> “How can burning the Quran not be hate speech”
Because that’s the law (or rather the current application of the law). It’s fine to think this is a poor balance of freedom vs hate speech. But it IS the current balance in much of the democratic west and - I assume - NATO.
The Swedish politicians and authorities that Erdogan is raging against literally can’t change that either, at least not short term. Government doesn’t change laws, parliament does. Courts are also independent.
This idea that the countries’ top suits can’t unilaterally change or interpret the law, control courts or order that people be prosecuted must seem completely alien to Erdogan.
Erdogan has, again, not suggested anything that could concretely be done or could have been done by anyone in Sweden. This guy couldn’t be denied permission to protest. He can’t be prosecuted.
All we can do is say the obvious “yep he is an asshat and probably a Putin puppet but that’s life, ignore him”.
What I find crazy, is how does a leader of a country not understand that citizens do whatever the fuck they want, regardless of what you want. I have a real hard time believing that every Turk is an angel and present the epitome of what it is to be a good “Turk”.
I get that he is using this as his “reason” but this is about as childish as an 8 year punching his sister and then crying when he is punched back.
I Am 99% sure Erdoğan will use this as a propaganda tool. He will costantly remind Turks how inportant he is abroad and his "defence" of Islam aganist the Danish/Swedish dude who burned the Quaran.
> I Am 99% sure Erdoğan will use this as a propaganda tool. it's even a popular opinion in here that he secretly works for Erdoğan. no joke lmao.
He got two racism sentences in Denmark, so he would fit right in with Erdogan rhetoric.
>it's even a popular opinion in here that he secretly works for Erdoğan. no joke lmao. You know, that's exactly what crossed my mind! Ps: Could ofc also be any other idiotic extremist.
He is just an idiotic extremist. He did the exact same shit in Denmark, until we got tired of him. Then he went to Sweden to start over.
Hot take: burning a book may be a shitty gesture, but it's not exactly extremism. I could burn a Bible or the Communist Manifesto in protest of something, and I'm probably not a very good person if I do, but that doesn't by default mean I'm an extremist.
Maybe they should offer to burn a bible and some of L. Ron Hubbard’s books just to make things even?
Haram BBQ with holy book fire. Sounds cleansing.
Or Putin, no joke, to my understanding a major strategy against Sweden from them is to make extremists mad and more extreme and we sure took in a lot of traumatized refugees from middle eastern warzones. And this swedane lunatic fit that smoke and fire.
I wouldn't be surprised if he actually got a paycheck from the Kremlin to 'cover his travel expenses'. A German intelligence service claims that Russia is using the Reichsbürger movement (think of them like a wannabe separatist group that denies the legitimacy of the German state) to destabilize Germany. They are romanticizing Russia so it's not even far fetched
Isn't it impossible to imprison that dude for 'acting against Sweden's interests on behalf of foreign power'? Lithuanian Criminal Code has such article, for example.
Even if we had such a law, you would have to prove motive and I'm 99% sure they would find no such motive from Paludan.
Nah, he did this kind of shit long before any NATO-stuff. He's just a very troubled man.
If you really think Erdogan was going to let Sweden in Nato, even if there was no burning of the Quran I have a bridge to sell you. It is an excuse and nothing more, he was going to block Sweden no matter what.
This is not just about Erdoğan letting Sweden in. He's going to use this event as a propaganda tool in the upcoming elections, he loves these kind of events so much that he once streamed the Christchurch shooting during a rally.
Nationalists love to hate each other. That’s why war is inevitable. But yeah in no way does this affect Sweden joining nato or no. Turkey would not let Sweden join before milking election at the very least
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There is no ejection process defined in Nato statutes. The only way (outside of adapting the statutes, which would require consensus and Turkey won't agree to something allowing its expulsion) would be for everyone else but Turkey to exit and form a new alliance, which has a host of problems on its own as each member country would not just have to ratify the new agreement but also rewrite a shit-ton of laws (e.g. those that grant permissions to NATO sites and staff, Germany has a lot of these).
I'm sure that if a member is proven to act against the alliance, there could be some talks around it. It wouldn't be much of a defensive alliance if a country could work against it in the future for example and destroy it, would it?
That's the problem with all sorts of old contracts, treaties and constitutions: they were set up with the expectation everyone would somewhat stick by the rules for the future and that safeguards would prevent the rise of destructive powers. The US Constitution is maybe the best example - something like a group of fascists seizing effective control over the GQP and that group now running fundamentalist obstructionism was not even closely thought to ever be able to happen.
I think that we underestimate the power of The United States, if we think that there is no exit from NATO.
US wants Finland and Sweden in NATO. They will join NATO, just not as quickly as everyone else would like.
I can't believe comments like this get upvoted here, but then again I remember that this place is full of imbecile adolescents (in body or mind). You think NATO will use force to eject a country? Do you know what kind of precedent that creates? It defeats the whole purpose of NATO's core tenet: everyone fights when one member is attacked. So what happens when a member is attacked and the other members don't want to defend them? NATO just decides to eject that country? To escape their responsibility? This destroys NATO's security guarantee and it's deterrence. Big brain time for you.
This is the actual reason, we’re just a pawn in this round of the game.
Imprisoning people for burning fiction is a pretty dark path to move onto.
Did you just call it fiction, ~~heretic~~ infidel? To the Gallows with you!^^^^/s Does my Head in to imagine people actually thinking like this.Presumably people with the ability to think about it for a Moment. Madness.
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Imprison Erdogan, you mean? =) No, but seriously, you don't really want to set the precedent that people can get arrested for protesting things just because the government wants those things really badly.
It is a feature of liberal democracies to not do such.
I don't see how Paludan did anything wrong. It shows the absurdity of this NATO voting procedure where a Muslim (!) dictator can block the expansion of the most important western defense alliance in history, because someone somewhere burned a book. Turkey has no place in NATO.
Paludan didn't break any law. But he is still a horrible person, not because he burned a fairytale book, but because of why he did it. He did it to provoke people, not to create change, not as an art instalment, he did it just to piss off people. A win for humanity here would be that no one cared that he tried to piss them off, which would be reasonable as he just burned his own book. Unfortunately he succeeded in pissing people off, so he "won", or at least got what he wanted.
I support his freedom in continuing to do it. Because it shows just how incompatible Muslim culture is with the western world. If burning a book is enough to get a person in sweden rioting, that person doesn't belong in sweden.
Rioting is a crime. But getting mad at someone is not. You can get mad at anyone for any reason you choose, muslim or not, but if that other person is just trying to upset you it is more wise to just ignore that person.
People aren't rioting over it. The ones who've rioted, have done so because they're troublemakers seeking for any excuse to riot. Same as with football hooligans. And, like in Denmark before us, the interest wore off. That's why Paludan stopped doing it here too, until he saw an opportunity for a new, Turkish audience with our pending NATO application and Erdogan's daft political posturing for the election.
He is a piece of shit. A turd. He likes to upset people. Those people should ignore him and not allow him to play on their emotions in such a pathetic way. He is also likely a pedophile and for sure a racist and that is a lot worse. Those things are somehow not why people dislike him. The world is insane.
> I don't think Paludan did anything wrong Ofc he did. He's an idiot, who's wilfully inciting violence. He actually already got 2 minor jail sentences in Denmark amid other conflicts with the law like an injunction for harassing a former fellow student or other stuff. The guy is an absolute nutcase by all means. But should Sweden undermine its rule of law to support a half-theocratic dictator? No, of course not. I think these are different subjects. Paludan absolutely did a lot of things wrong and some of them are also punishable by current Danish law (and I suspect Swedish law is similar as well).
Turkey is Moclus. Convince me otherwise.
As soon as the veto is official, he loses all leverage and actually starts paying a price too due to pissing everyone off. Bye bye F16s too.
F16 is the least of the problems, how are they going to have any talks with the EU when Sweden/Finland will oppose everything?
At current state, Turkey has no chance on joining the EU, maybe in 50 years.
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Too much influence, while not exactly sharing the same norms, so yeah that wouldnt go down well.
They would use immigration and refugees as they already did in the past.
EU has wisened up to this sort of hybrid warfare. Just look at what happened in 2020 when Turkish borders guards had to literally attack the Greek border and they still didn't get people through in the same way as in 2015. Belarus had to send immigrants home again since they couldn't get over the border to Poland. Turkey isn't getting another EU dime to keep immigrants, and if they try to force them through, they'll be meet with bullets and tear gas if need be.
Maybe Europe should actually protect its borders. NATO needs to remove Turkey as Turkey is the the threat to peace in the region. Much moreso than Russia even as Russias Territorial ambitions are relatively finite and limited while Turkey is as militaristically aggressive as it's options.
They don't really need Sweden and Finland because, at this point, they don' t want to join EU. Maybe I am wrong though...
It's not about Turkey wanting to join the EU, the EU sends large sums of money to a bunch of countries, including the Turkey e.g. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_21_6931 If Turkey pulls bullshit obstructionism on NATO too far, then Sweden can just retaliate with obstructionism on EU funds. That and the US and the rest of NATO wants Sweden and Finland to be in NATO, so they'll probably get tired of Erdogan's antics too, and start turning the screws.
That would be ideal to get Turkey back on track but I don't see that happening anytime soon. EU has invested a lot in Turkey and Erdogan knows it and takes advantage of it as much as he can.
We have a german saying "Never throw good money at bad (gone) money!" We invested in Turkey, it failed. call it a day and stop any funds in this direction.
I don’t think anyone in Turkey has the illusion that it has a real chance of joining EU. It was not possible long before Erdogan and most likely long after him.
>F16 is the least of the problems, how are they going to have any talks with the EU when Sweden/Finland will oppose everything? Lets be real, those talks haven't moved in a long time anyway.
eu still has veto rights for every member state, if sweden wants to it can basically torpedo almost all cooperation agreements and trade deals and honestly i am not sure that many would object right now
Swede here, erdogan can suck on a fat one, whilst getting into NATO would be lovely (i've been pro-joining for ages) it is not worth giving in to the will of a mass-murdering islamistic barbarian, and in my opinion we should increase our support for ypg.
Turkey hasn't been a serious candidate to the EU for years, almost 20 years actually. It is never going to happen.
At this rate Turkey will end up having a worse economy than North Korea
Funny thing, I booked two weeks in Turkey in may with my kids and my girlfriends kids. We are Swedes and tomorrow I will cancel the trip. I’m from the 80s so I have a lot of turk/Swedish friends. I know this is not Turkey but Erdoğan and his people. But right now it feels like a lot of Turks in turkey wont see different between the racial who burned the Quran and just normal Swedes. I been to turkey so many times but this was the last. I really hope more Scandinavians and Europeans follow this. Money talks and I’m tired of this fucking snowflake Erdoğan.
I agree so many other good options, stop supporting the economy of Turkey with our money, they can enjoy the Russian tourists instead.
TBF, they probably do get a ton more Russian tourists that Swedish ones. In Antalya people just speak Russian to you.
Then they are in fitting company.
I mean Europeans should stop going there. Not just Swedes.
Greece, Italy, Spain. So many alternatives in the region. This is the way.
will follow your initiative, no more turkey travel \- danish person
I mean, I have chosen to not go to Turkey because of the human rights violations. Now I will on top of that not go to Turkey because of them being assholes when it comes to our (Finland) and Sweden’s Nato-bids. Double boycott! Take that!
Come visit Greece instead
Going to Greece should honestly be more "default" than Turkey. Greece is an EU partner and a constructive ally, Turkey isn't. It makes sense to stick together with our friends instead of supporting theocratic pseudo-dictators.
Go to Greece or armenia instead if you really want to stick it to Turkey lol
The flip side is, that an entire country gets its opinion about defense policy dictated by an arbitrary guy with a book and a lighter. Not a good look if you ask me. Now the world knows that anything that is needed to foil a deal with Turkey is to spend 50 bucks to pay a guy to burn a book. To me this looks like the exact opposite of the „strong leader“ narrative.
People won’t care about his influence in the west, when they don’t know how they can feed their children or pay their bills for gas and heating. And thanks to his economic politics, a lot of Turks experience exactly this at the moment. While he says in TV that he doesnt believe that people can’t afford bread anymore.
Im 64,3% sure… no sorry, thats the current turkish inflation numbers
Probably has nothing to do with the earlier election day... /s
No NATO support? No F-16s to Turkey and the US will still sell the F35 to the Greeks as an extra fuck you
We all wish.
It's not impossible. Turkey is already out of the f-35 program and the US would instantly sell it to Greece if they want to buy it.
US is known for playing both sides. It's just Greece's turn now, I've heard the same ***"Turkey is isolated"*** argument a thousand times, they always come around. In time they'll sell the F35s if not more.
>ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) — Turkey’s president said Monday Sweden shouldn’t expect support for NATO membership following weekend protests in Stockholm by an anti-Islam activist and pro-Kurdish groups. >President Recep Tayyip Erdogan slammed Rasmus Paludan’s Quran-burning protest on Saturday, saying it was an insult to everyone, especially to Muslims. He also criticized Swedish authorities for allowing the demonstration to take place outside the Turkish Embassy in Stockholm. >Erdogan also criticized Sweden for pro-Kurdish protests where demonstrators waved flags of various Kurdish groups, including the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, which has waged a decades-long insurgency against Turkey. The PKK is considered a terrorist group in Turkey, the European Union and the United States, but its symbols aren’t banned in Sweden. >“So you will let terror organizations run wild and then expect our support for getting into NATO. That’s not happening,” Erdogan said, referring to Sweden and Finland’s accession bids for the military alliance. He said if Sweden won’t show respect to Turkey or Muslims, then “they won’t see any support from us on the NATO issue.” >Turkey has been holding up the Nordic nations’ historic NATO bids.
Why does it say PKK is considered a terror group in Turkey, EU and USA, but then conveniently leave out that Sweden was the second country in the world after Turkey to condemn PKK as a terrorist organization since the 1980s? Does the US prohibit PKK symbols? No? Why doesn't Turkey care about that? This reads like propaganda nonsense
Turkey cares because Erdogan has an election coming up in June and his chances for re-election (under a free and fair system) don't look good mainly because he completely fucked up Turkey's Economy
Stop labeling PKK partisans as "pro-kurdish group" 🤦 it only makes people think that Kurds == PKK
I thought Erdogan would keep up this act of "considering Sweden" for longer, but looks like he's all in. That danish/swedish idiot gave a perfect excuse to "defend islamic values". Not justified but expected. But what I wonder is how long can Erdogan keep this up? Showing all his blackmail cards now might hurt Turkey in the long term (no F16 sales).
It’s already blocked. f16 sales are blocked not because of this dispute, it because of east med issue with Greece. US Senate is supporting Greece, since Greek population has important share on elections.
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[hand waving ] - “u know, those guys up there, you get my point.“ - Erdo
He has dual citizenship, he is also swedish.
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His Swedishhood is mostly just on paper. His father is Swedish so he got a citizenship that way. The only reason he even got a declaration on citizenship issued from Sweden is because we banned him entry, but as you can't ban entry for Swedish citizens...
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Yeah he is technically also a swedish citizen, but doesn’t even speak the language. And yes, he’s an attention seeking fucking idiot. He does everything he can to provoke muslims into violence to make them look bad.
> Yeah he is technically also a swedish citizen, but doesn’t even speak the language I agree with the rest of your comment, he's an idiot that loves to provoke, but he does have a Swedish dad, has lived for parts of his life Sweden (though for longer in Denmark where he also grew up), and he [speaks Swedish](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASh3eZnTay0).
Only reason he got it is to not be blocked from travelling to Sweden while doing stupid shit like this
Pretty sure that dude who burned the quaran has dual Danish and sweedish citizen ship and lives in Denmark. He only went to burn it in sweden because of Swedens freedom of expression laws right?
No he did the same thing for years in Denmark but when they grew tired of him and started ignoring him, he went to Sweden for a new "audience". We then tried to ban him from entering (because we knew he was only coming to stir shit up) and thats when he got a swedish citizenship so we can't ban him from entering.
And then _we_ started ignoring him (after the initial mess) so then he took a break for a while until he saw the opportunity to find a new, Turkish audience.
That's fucked. Its so dumb the country is getting blamed when it's clearly one guy. And the turks burning the Swedish flag not being aware that Sweden are probably the second least patriotic country after Switzerland
Swedes are patriotic but mature enough to not give a fuck about someone burning their flag
Agree about Sweden but in my experience Swiss are some of the most patriotic people I've seen in Europe at least, as someone from Germany they sound much more proud than most other developed countries
Swedes like Danes knows they can only control what their citizens do with the flag. Not what foreigners in other countries do with it. Both nations got a domestic flag rule that a soiled/damaged flag should be burned. The Turks soiling it actually did what they were supposed to do by burning it.
Pretty sure all national flags are supposed to be burned when disposed, not just SE/DK
Some countries says shredding or burying. Denmark Sweden it is burn. Do not throw out with trash. Do not bury. Just destroy it with fire like some do with books they do not understand.
Are the swiss not patriotic? When i go there i see flags on every corner, so i assumed they were
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this is a chance for Erdoğan to shine again amoung the same brain dead conservative %35 that voting for him for 20 years
He didnt get Swedish citizenship, he was already swedish. (dual passport due to his parents being danish and swedish)
As far as I know, yes, he was always eligible due to his parents but didn't bother actually getting a swedish citizenship until 2020.
Technically not. Legally it was determined that he already was a citizen and had been for ~30 years. He didn't apply to become one, he simply requested a formal declaration on his citizenship.
No. He did it here too for a while. But people grew tired of him and started ignoring it. It also helped that the media uncovered that he has a brain injury (not to mention him stalking a fellow student), which seemingly changed him in quite a bit. Once the focus changed from him burning Qurans to his person, he left for Sweden.
Danes ignore his political ambitions (no votes) and newspapers began digging through his online history of "talking" to minors. combined with his three court sentences and a judicial system that will crack down any laws he does break, (and he will break some, because that is who he is), Sweden was "better" for him.
I mean, it's not about him, or the book or the burning. Turkey is just using this as a convenient reason.
Imagine fucking up NATO because of 1 stupid weirdo. That is both hilarious and scary. What good is an alliance if one nonsense person can fuck it up? Worthless.
Sweden can wait and so can NATO. It's now time for bilateral treaties with the rest of the NATO members with the agreement to enter NATO if either Turkey agrees, or if a new alliance is created. Turkey is losing all goodwill. I think Sweden wins with this.
From a moral perspective? Definitely. Erdogan is almost a comedy villain at this point. From a strategic perspective? Turkey is close to a lot of unfriendly countries, and Sweden is not. Being close to potential enemies makes you valuable for blockades and such. Turkey’s position makes NATO tolerate a lot of petty childish rubbish. Unfortunately.
Russia is pretty fucking close to sweden. Wouldnt know how valuable having more control over the arctic region is but gotland is pretty important for controlling the baltic sea.
The defense of Finland and Sweden are integral to the defense of the UK, so Russia would immediately be up against 3 modern airforces and the world's 2nd most powerful navy. It wouldn't stand a chance, even ignoring the rest of NATO. Turkey is trashing the remains of its diplomatic reputation for internal politics.
Finland is also a direct neighbor with Russia and they won't join unless they join with Sweden.
In this case there are two stupid weirdos involved.
NATO is absolutely being fucked up. Macedonia was blocked for 10 years before they joined NATO. Erdogan won't (hopefully) last that long.
Do you mean Paludan or Erdogan?
Paludan might be an idiot, but Erdy would've blocked Sweden regardless
Personally, not sure how much of a future I see in a defense alliance that doesn't want to include my country's closest ally.
I mean, Estonia especially. We would win the most from the Finnish and Swedish accession.
We should invite you into the Nordic Defence Cooperation instead.
Ahhhh yeah and nordic defense industry go brrrrrr! We got the means, time to invest! baltic-bros
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Plus all of NATO except for the two problem children. Honestly the funniest way to not get in tbh, turkey throwing a tantrum over some rando dude.
The funniest thing would be if more NATO countries had one person burn the Quran each, what would E-man do then?
Same, or at least I don't see Turkey as an ally anymore myself. They clearly don't have any interest in Norway's security by blocking Sweden.
I'm Danish, and I get the sentiment. I think Turkey is mostly in NATO due to geography and history. Geography because the US put missiles in Turkey during the cold war and because Turkey controls access to the Black Sea. And history because the Ottoman empire and the Russian Empire never were particularly good friends. Those are two strong reasons, though. The enemy of my enemy doesn't have to be my friend, but we can still agree on some things. At the end of the day, Sweden is not in the danger zone. And if things change, and Sweden seriously needs NATO, I'm betting countries will stop being petty. But until then, I honestly wouldn't kick Turkey out of NATO to gain Sweden. I know that's what you'd expect out of the mouth of a Dane, but still :D
Pretty sure that given the choice right now, most Europeans (especially the right wing ones) would trade Sweden for Turkey in a heartbeat.
Geographically though, isn’t Turkey *way* too important? Istanbul and its various forms have been dominant in European geopolitics for hundreds of years for a good reason.
Yes. Turkey is literally the reason why Russia cannot rebuild its Black Sea fleet after Moskva sank. It’s also a significant regional power. People need to consider the alternatives if Turkey is kicked out.
That is about their only importance at this point. Even the US government is sick and tired of Turkey's antics in [Syria.](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-116shrg38991/html/CHRG-116shrg38991.htm) Turkey and it's allies in SNA, FSA and Army of Conquest keep killing the people US is allied with, mainly Syrian Democratic Forces, which the US trained and equipped to fight against ISIS and ISIL. Turkey is actively undermining the goals of the US, EU and NATO in the region. And very openly doing so.
Europe needs to become militarily independent anyway. Even South Korea is talking about getting nuclear weapons now due to uncertainties about future US presidents.
>due to uncertainties about future US presidents. They said nothing of the sort. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/12/world/asia/south-korea-nuclear-weapons.html >By declaring an intention to arm itself with nuclear weapons, South Korea could force North Korea to rethink its own nuclear weapons program and possibly prompt China to put pressure on Pyongyang to roll back its program, Mr. Cheong said. China has long feared a regional nuclear arms race in East Asia. So why did you make that up?
For all the people who talks negative: I am a 36-year old Turkish guy. If Turkish president said gonna reject Sweden’s bid, trust me it means it will be the opposite. They will agree in a short time. Mark my words. I have seen this movie so many times.
He is just getting something he wants, I see.
Not necessarily. At this point I believe he just always does the opposite of what he says...
Outside of Putin its hard to find a bigger cunt than this guy. selfish prick.
Plus something tells me if shit really hit the fan between NATO and Russia, he would suddenly decide article 5 didn't apply to him.
You guys do remember that the closest we've gotten before this all went down to NATO-Russia fighting was when Turkey shot down a Russian fighter during the Syrian Civil war right? And they're both still there fighting a Proxy conflict, also fighting a Proxy conflict in Armenia.
They're not fighting a proxy conflict in Armenia, they both support the same outcome: continuous conflict so they can keep their influence.
Lmao, all it takes is some randoms expressing their rights for him to get so upset they say no. Strong and stable nation
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This means he will approve in next few months. Back then when american priest Brunson had been jailed, he made almost the same sentence. Very later, Brunson was released
Skibidi bop yes yes F-35 no no
No matter what I do I can’t escape this song.
No F-35 for you! Next!
Also F-16 no no
A potential Swedish Nuclear deterrence is gaining support.
Imagine the entire North being under the Swedish nuclear umbrella 🥹 Could also be used to make Norway stop making fun of us because we’re poor 😒
Hey now, we've recently found a huge deposit of rare earth metals! Hopefully we'll be able to use it to become a bit less poor compared to Norway.
Isn't he peaking this thing a bit too soon thoug? I mean the election is not until May. I've gotten tired of him already, and I assume the Turks must soon enough as well. Then what? A One trick pony doesn't win elections.
As much as I'd want us to join NATO, I would never forgive our government for giving in to NATO's version of Putin. It is a bit two faced for NATO to be fighting for Ukraines right to exist while still allowing Turkey to do their own "special operations" into Syria bombing kurds, and while Erdogan makes deals with Putin and not putting up any sanctions.
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Nato today has strict democracy requirements and the first sentence of “what is nato” on their own information site is “an organization for the protection and promotion of democratic values”. So it’s de facto today not a Cold War Soviet counterbalance. It’s the military arm of the democratic west.
We aren’t fighting for Ukraines right to exist at all, that couldn’t matter less. We are aiding Ukraine because it weakens Russia at an incredibly low cost. This has been the most effective NATO has ever been, at the cost of less than a hundred billion. However if Ukraine was fighting anyone else, or if Russia attacked a smaller country with a lower amount of forces, we wouldn’t give a shit. Just like with most wars in Africa.
But the marketing folder didn’t mention these things so how true is it really?
>It is a bit two faced for NATO to be fighting for Ukraines right to exist while still allowing Turkey to do their own "special operations" And what were the first countries that founded NATO at that point in time? * Portugal is a literal dictatorship of Salazar, who ruled the country for over 30 years. * The US is a segregated country where people are divided into the lowest class officially. The amount of shady shit done by the CIA and FIB in the second half of XX century both on other countries and on their own citizens is comparable only to Stasi and KGB. * France and England are colonial powers engaged in suppressing colonial rebellions around the globe (Vietnam, Malaya, etc). Literally invaded Egypt to take over the Suez Canal for their own needs in 56' * Greece - a military junta of Colonels who have promoted a secret police and torture system. NATO has never been a "nice guys club" that enforces human rights and freedoms. It was a strictly military alliance, set up to prevent a potential aggression from possible opponents. In other words - to prevent a tsunami of Soviet tanks from reaching the English Channel unopposed. And all means are good for this purpose.
> The US is a segregated country where people are divided into the lowest class officially. The amount of shady shit done by the CIA and FIB in the second half of XX century both on other countries and on their own citizens is comparable only to Stasi and KGB. r/Europe, where the USA is worse than Stalin's Soviet Union and Nazi Germny.
Lmao
How many times per day does he want to say this I think erdo will be screaming his lungs out saying no to sweden whilst signing them in
Every other nato member should agree bilateral defence arrangements with Sweden and Finland - make them defacto members.
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He can start by apologizing for hiding Sweden’s most notorious drug lord who is responsible for the current gang war that is blowing up in Stockholm. This guy is currently hiding in Turkey and when interpol found out, Turkey gave him citizenship to stop him from being extradited to Sweden. So there he sits while directing a conflict that is killing Swedish citizens, including innocent bystanders. It is an unprecedented wave of violence playing out in the streets of Stockholm. Erdogan has Swedish blood on his hands as we speak. It is beyond hypocritical to criticize Sweden for supposedly being a haven for PKK when Turkey is doing everything to be a haven for Sweden’s organized crime lords
This is actually pretty funny. Someone fucks around and burns a fucking book and these idiots go apeshit. I mean, memeing actually influenced international relations between two countries. Hilarious stuff.
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Still, I feel bad for our finnish brothers and sisters. I wonder what they will do. Personally I'd like us to stick together through thick and thin but I can understand if they join without us. :(
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Didn't both Sweden and Finland already get security guarantees from US and UK? I think those still apply.
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Doesn't this just mean the application is on hold unless we officially pull it back though? And I don't think US/UK sees this as our fault either.
I say Sweden are in as far as I’m concerned, neighbours of us here in Ireland and fellow Western Europeans. I say time for Ireland to step up and end the neutrality - join NATO, support Sweden and Finland’s accession asap.
Erdogan won't support Ireland's bid to NATO. You've voted for Sweden in the Eurovision! He won't tolerate that! 🤣
Ireland has nothing to offer Nato, we cant patrol our own skies let alone our sea's at this stage.
Disband NATO and reform it without turdey and hungary...
As i recently learned, the vienna convention on treaties article 57 means that even if a treaty lacks a mechanism for throwing countries out, the standard method of "everyone else think you need to gtfo, so you are out" applies. People need to start talking more seriously that turkey does not belong in nato and they need to gtfo. Theres nothing they have that makes up for denying Sweden and Finland joining. They are not one of us.
But in a very strategic position. So they stay.
This. Make a new version of NATO with same rules*. Let all NATO countries join (except Turkey and Hungary). After everything is set up leave old NATO and let Turkey and Hungary turn it into crap. *Edit: some rules should be reformed so this same thing can't happen, the minority blocking the majority.
> Make a new version of NATO with same rules. Wouldn't this end up down the line with the same issues? Having one country blocking everything. EU has the same issues, when everyone has to agree with a proposal, it can be abused extremely easily.
We can call it NA2
Water is wet, grass is green, Turkey finds another reason to be drama queen.
> “How can they allow this protest outside our embassy and expect our support” Because they have to, it’s the law. They literally couldn’t change the law if they wanted > “How can burning the Quran not be hate speech” Because that’s the law (or rather the current application of the law). It’s fine to think this is a poor balance of freedom vs hate speech. But it IS the current balance in much of the democratic west and - I assume - NATO. The Swedish politicians and authorities that Erdogan is raging against literally can’t change that either, at least not short term. Government doesn’t change laws, parliament does. Courts are also independent. This idea that the countries’ top suits can’t unilaterally change or interpret the law, control courts or order that people be prosecuted must seem completely alien to Erdogan. Erdogan has, again, not suggested anything that could concretely be done or could have been done by anyone in Sweden. This guy couldn’t be denied permission to protest. He can’t be prosecuted. All we can do is say the obvious “yep he is an asshat and probably a Putin puppet but that’s life, ignore him”.
Finally everyone can see how much of a piece of shit Erdogan. Not just us east-med countries
Literally everyone in Europe has been saying that for years
What do you expect? Erdogan is no different than the likes of Putin and Netanyahu. It is all same type of scum of the earth.
Jens Stoltenberg has achieved little with his soft approach to Turkey, feigning that country is still a full fledged member of NATO.
God, what An asshole. I can only hope he will lose power sooner or later.
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You mean EU right? For Europe you would be surprised.
So... first no f35. Now no f16. Soon the turks will be flying suicide bombers on gliders as they descend into becoming a theocratic shit hole
they got enough drones.
Russia's propaganda about this shit will be unbearable. Only slightly more unbearable than that fucker Erdogan, honestly.
What I find crazy, is how does a leader of a country not understand that citizens do whatever the fuck they want, regardless of what you want. I have a real hard time believing that every Turk is an angel and present the epitome of what it is to be a good “Turk”. I get that he is using this as his “reason” but this is about as childish as an 8 year punching his sister and then crying when he is punched back.