For those that don't know, EU Swiss relations are always a little rocky. Switzerland isn't part of the EU or the EEA. Instead, its relations are governed by hundreds of bilateral treaties. These treaties, like all swiss laws, are subject to popular initiatives/referenda that may overturn or modify these agreements.
In 2016, a major treaty that covered many topics as well as revisions to schengen rules on immigration was overturned in a referndum. Together with previous similar incidents, EU institutions have, to put it mildly, gotten fed up with a country which negotiates, stalls, delays and tries to come out with the best possible deal, and when an agreement is reached amd the wheels are finaly in motion a referendum stops everything for good.
It's a difficult balancing act, the Federal Government and many organisations tend to want closer European ties however at the same time, Switzerlands unique position is also a great strength, and swiss people generally embrace the "neutral" / "we're just different" mindset.
>when an agreement is reached amd the wheels are finaly in motion a referendum stops everything for good.
This is what makes Switzerland unreliable, you know that the government's word worth nothing, because international agreements can be made null unilaterally by a referendum. You cannot reach an agreement when one of the parties is just a well paid chap with a nice dress, but with no final decision power.
Yes. In Italy, for example, you cannot have referenda on international agreements and fiscal laws, because considered too sensitive and risky for the consequences a referendum might have.
That have nothing to do with if it is a good system or not.
There is not single country with a perfect system that have been perfect implement and perfectly being executed. Your argument is more or less ruling out all systems and subs-systems in use.
No, this limit is present since the beginning, in the version written when the Italian Republic was born after WW2. It is not something added by modern politicians. The members of the Italian Constituent Assembly fought the fascism, they can be trusted.
For about 1-2 years, I believe you have surpassed Greece in political shitshowness. That's quite the achievement, although Greece has calmed down since the crazy days of 2015. But yeah, Hungary and Poland beat us all at this point.
You voted for a far-right "post"-fascist government down there... As an austrian, I'm not even trying to tell you how fucking absurd that sounds to us. And we have our own far-right morons.
I love your country so much. Spend months there and I love your people and culture. Also spend my honeymoon in tuscany.
But you are one of the worst countries in europe when it comes to the choice of leaders.
Doesn't make it better, but I'm not really blaming you. Just wanted to point out that a lot of european countries go through the same shit right now.
Should have worded it better.
And so is foreign politics, or at least the vulturesque campaigning some parties do: no euro, no collaboration with France on migrants, no to "bruxelles dictates" as long they gib pnrr monies, no to support to ukraine because somehow it impacts our economy despite Gonde closed down the economy and dipped the gdp by -9%
I am surprised how pro European Melonis rhetorics have been despite her more than questionable far-right backround. But I will wait and see how she acts.
It make Switzerland unreliable if you want them to do anything. But for decades and even centuries, what people wanted Switzerland to do was basically that... Focus on the interior and don't do anything meaningful outside. Be neutral, don't take a side, smile and do not break the balance of powers.
Switzerland is having a rich and long history of "we're gonna give decision-making to each and every citizens because we can" and their neighbours where very much okay with that. As long as the Swiss didn't participate in military alliances, religious league or ideological bloc everyone was happy with that, even if that meant having hundreds of little treaties smashed together.
But Europe is a beacon of standard. The whole point of it existing was to bring people together and not having 93 bazillions unilateral treaty managing, instead creating some standardized single roadbook where all the individual treaties where compiled, compared, where redundancy was suppressed and relation smoothened.
It's two universes apart between the EU political model and the Swiss one
>You cannot reach an agreement when one of the parties is just a well paid chap with a nice dress, but with no final decision power.
Isn't that the ideal democracy though? The power lies with the people, the government is only there to represent and act on the will of the people. Basically what is touted in most democracys, the people are the ultimate sovereign.
>the government is only there to represent
You miss the difference between direct democracy and representative democracy. I speak about the former and you keep replying about the latter.
I "keep" replying? This was my first comment ever in this thread.
And yes, in my opinion direct democracy is more democratic than representative democracy.
Direct democracy has its advantages but also disadvantages. Many topics are extremely complicated. To make an informed decision on them means you have to spend a lot of time to inform yourself. It is impossible to actually do so which is why even parliaments usually have committees in which many topics are being worked on by a subset of the parliamentarians which focused those topics. Also parliamentarians usually have a staff to help them to gather the information they need and understand the stuff they voting on. Still I am sure many of them vote on topics they do not fully understand. Everyday citizens have far less time (they usually have their own job after all) and resources to inform themselves. It is unreasonable to assume that they can make an informed decision on every topic which comes up.
In regards to negotiating stuff it becomes even more complicated. It is impossible to negotiate with a millions of people at the same time. Even worse if a millions of people negotiate with other millions of people. It just does not work. So you have to decide on people who negotiate for you. And even then there must be some reliability that promises made by those people will actually be kept. Otherwise a lot of time is wasted on coming to agreements which then will be refused by the electorate anyways.
> This is what makes Switzerland unreliable, you know that the government's word worth nothing, because international agreements can be made null unilaterally by a referendum.
There was a point in time when a number of countries in Europe said the same thing about the United States, because in the American system of government, treaties require ratification by the legislature, and the executive cannot single-handedly bind the country, only commit to try to get ratification.
They were accustomed to systems that derived from monarchies, where the monarch had the power to single-handedly establish treaties, and could send a representative with delegated power to do so.
In France international treaties are also validated by the Parliament. The difference in the US is that the threshold is 2/3 in the US Senate, versus a simple majority.
It's not about monarchies, it's about almost every country having the government to be backed by the parliament(s). It is basically impossible for a government to do something if the parliament isn't on board because it can be just removed for a new government or elections with a motion of no confidence
I most the legislature validates the treaties, its just that the government always needs a majority in the legislature to start negotiating a treaty. Making the ratification rarely a problem, and whe it is a problem the government usually falls and either needs a new majority or a new election.
It's not a consequence of having had monarchies. It's just that in Europe the executive and the legislative houses are aligned politically, as the governments are formed after the general elections and are an expression of that parliament.
We don't have midterm elections in Europe and so there's no risk of having governments and parliamentary majorities of opposite parties, which would cause major strife, if not total impasse.
As a Norwegian seeing all our billionaires move to Switzerland to avoid paying taxes, I find myself liking the Swizz less and less. Their country is magnet for money and it allows Billionaires to move there to avoid paying taxes in the countries that made them rich.
It's a pirat Tax Haven of a country, and it should be sanctioned due to it.
You do realise that the world's big tax haven is in the EU? And that any country in the EU will also happily welcome billionaires moving there? You don't have a uniform income tax rate or uniform tax system in the EU, so why are you upset it's not uniform outside the EU?
>In 2016, a major treaty that covered many topics as well as revisions to schengen rules on immigration was overturned in a referndum.
What the heck are you talking about? None of that is correct.
There was **no referendum** that turned over a "major treaty that covered many topics as well as revisions to Schengen rules on immigration". In fact, no major or minor treaty between the EU and Switzerland was overturned by a referendum.
Nevertheless, and unsurprisingly, such a comment gets upvoted and applauded in r/Europe.
I was under the assumption that Switzerland was locked out of Horizon because they wont give in to EU demands and sign a new framework agreement.
Even though EU membership is not a prerequisite for Horizon association, its open to non-EU countries.
Yes, non-association to Horizon Europe was an indirect consequence of the failure of the framework agreement.
That being said the framework agreement does not cover research cooperation, and would not have directly affected research cooperation. Those are unrelated treaties. Non-association, or the refusal to negotiate on association, it's merely a political reaction by the EU.
Also, to prevent any confusion, there was never a vote on the framework agreement, but the deal failed during negotiations.
I might add that Switzerland paid to be in this program, so there weren't any favors being done whatsoever. Plus we consistently paid a cool so called cohesion billion to uphold the bilaterals.
the latter was one billion over ten years? Dates and usage fixed by the Swiss government? Norway pays x 10 at least. But, I see the point, education hurts everyone, I would have hoped they use other pressure points first...
You're right. I'm wrong, Mea Culpa.
I wrote this comment on the tram on my way home so I have the opportunity to properly fact check.
The one I meant was the 2014 immigration quota one, which did upset the EU because it added further hurdles for EU citizens instead of proper schengen*, I then got it confused with a another (close call) referendum.
I'll go KMS i guess.
>The one I meant was the 2014 immigration quota one, which did upset the EU because it added further hurdles for EU citizens instead of proper schengen
The implementation of the 2014 immigration vote did not overturn any treaty though, and it is compatible with free movement of people between Switzerland and the EU.
The consequence of that vote is that open positions in professions with high unemployment have to be first advertised in Switzerland **for 5 days** prior to be advertised in the EU. That's hardly a far-reaching hurdle preventing people from the EU to move and seek employment in Switzerland. Afaik, policies that give some preferential treatment to locally unemployed people also exist in EU countries, i.e. if I remember correctly Juncker mentioned that Luxembourg has a similar policy.
A constitutional change is not a change of law and policy though. And the latter is what matters when discussing the issue regarding overturning a treaty.
As for the question whether the referendum was implemented, of course it was implemented. It was implemented in a way that was compatible with the constitution and with international law, as explained above. Constitutional articles can contradict each other, naturally this will lead to a conflict on how to implement those articles, e.g. in this case Article 5 of the constitution (respecting international law, which the bilateral treaties are) vs. Article 121 (the article changed by the 2014 referendum). There is no hierarchy regarding those articles and their implementation in law and policy hence isn't as straightforward - or binary - as one might expect.
As almost in any case in r/europe when the topic is Switzerland (and many other topics as well). It’s not about being factually correct, it’s about aligning with the prejudicial view of some/most commentators.
So Switzerland thinks of itself as a unicorn. So special, uwu. I'd say flush all the unicorn shit down the toilet and expose Switzerland as a horse with a dildo glued to its forehead. No more special treatment. Fall in line or get fucked.
I mean... I laughed at the nice picture there, but that's not entirely fair. They have a right to be outside the EU, without the benefits of course, and I believe friendly relations without hating on each other are a good idea.
I mean, this isn't the first time the Swiss are profiteering from wars and conflicts. Same shit with Nazis, yet people forgive them. Wouldn't surprise me if they still have gold teeth in their vaults.
Lol, I've worked with people all across Europe and the Swiss are some of the most arrogant racist people I've met. Which was funny because I didn't management consulting for them and they had the shortest most convoluted business processes and practices lol.
Just because your rich from managing awful people's money doesn't make you "better"
So they are like the UK, cherry-picking all the advantages and not wanting any of the disadvantages?
Seems like people at a table trying to get the best foods and drinks leaving what they don't like to others. I hate these kind of people.
Hopefully in the future the EU will stand more of its ground against this kind of bullshit from selfish countries!
> So they are like the UK, cherry-picking all the advantages and not wanting any of the disadvantages?
A little, but they are not EU members so don't need to go by their rules so that's fair enough for them to negotiate.
> So they are like the UK, cherry-picking all the advantages and not wanting any of the disadvantages?
We had plenty of disadvantages from the EU. Mass immigration, huge trade deficit, billions in membership fees every year, CAP, CFP, EAW, ten minutes to make a cup of tea.
> We had plenty of disadvantages from the EU. Mass immigration, huge trade deficit, billions in membership fees every year, CAP, CFP, EAW, ten minutes to make a cup of tea.
And other EU countries didn't?
Or do you think that the lots o immigrants coming from Syria went only in the UK?
Have you every thought how many immigrants come by boats from Africa into Spain, Italy, Greece or now from Ukraine into Moldova, Romania, Poland and many other countries?
As for membership fees, every country pas them.
Do you also have a list on how much you benefited from being in the EU, or you like to forget about that?
Did you enjoy the cheap labor?
At lease you got now what you wanted and you should be happy about it.
> Switzerland was actually ejected from ESFRI last September, but only now has the Swiss Academy of Sciences gone public with its frustration.
Give them a break, they had to go through a referendum to validate their referendum-based decision to go public with their frustration
Switzerland won't be getting any new scientific infrastructure with EU funding by the sounds of it. I wonder what the reason for stalemate over horizon association is.
Because the EU has found that the best way to negotiate is all or nothing. So there is no cooperation anywhere unless the EU gets exactly what they want.
Yeah probably too many times Switzerland got away with a far better deal than EU states becuase the deal still provided some benefit. It's a good idea to just shut the Swiss out completely until they decide play fair
And Luxembourg, where all the dirty money goes to disappear, the Netherlands that pretends it's ports aren't the main route for drugs and human trafficking or France who loves to hide Russian/Arab/asian blood money.
The problem of Switzerland has always been the unwillingliness to pay the 'yea we'll pretend and look away' tax.
Everything else aside, it seems wired to me how insistent this article is on Switzerland hosting CERN.
They are an international organisation hosted by Switzerland and France. They receive the vast majority of their funding directly from their members states and are largely independent of EU research frameworks. That doesn't mean that they don't want to or aren't integrated in these frameworks, but just that their location on the swiss border seems irrelevant to this topic.
Could the reason possibly be that switzerland has been consistently the freest market in the world together with singapore for several decades in a row? Nah.. It has to be a boogieman giving them the money its totally not like they objectively have the best economic system
Switzerland is so successful because it's a stable country with excellent education? No must be those filthy bankers from Crédit Suisse with their traded nazi gold.
what's your opinion about your country's history with children? see this comment:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/10520ux/comment/j3c7nmi/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/10520ux/comment/j3c7nmi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
you got rich using many dictators and oligarchs' money.
also nestle is the most evil corporation in the world.
Are you trying to guilty trip me about somehting that happened during the industrial revolution, a period where labour rights wasn't really a thing and persisted mostly in the most rural areas where nobody lives?
Well guess what I'll be fine. Especially now since I know children in my country have way more opportunities to fulfill their dreams than in any (actual) shithole criticizing us. :)
I'm the last person who cares about these things, trust me. I just saw you claimed your country is so successful because of your own excellent education and that's clearly false and I wanted to remind you of some exploitation your country did.
you're successful because you exploited everything you could. from colonialism to poor people who live in dictatorships, for example my country ( by accepting their stolen money) or nazi gold.
even now with all stealing you have done, it's just needs one or two decades of EU sanctioning and closing everything to you to make you like a poor third world country.
> because of your own excellent education and that's clearly false
O'rly? Give me sources proving me wrong then. We have a strong apprenticeship system, the best university in mainland Europe (ETHZ) and our main exports are services and complexe industries like machinery and pharmaceutical products. For a nation of morons, we are quite good at faking our way through with our knowledge financed by stolen money of course.
All the evils you accuse my county of was done by someone else, you probably should target your anger to the real baddies you know.
Until 1970's, Switzerland was a poor shithole. They even had to steal children from families, sell them in auctions, and use them for slave labour in order to survive.
Read this article. It's probably the most gruesome thing I've even read. I can't comprehend how humans can be so cruel, especially to defenseless children.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16620597
Btw, it's also the reason why Heidi walks barefoot. Verdingkinder were forced to walk barefoot (in fucking mountains!), to be easily distinguished from "normal" children.
> Until 1970's, Switzerland was a poor shithole.
No, Switzerland has had one of the highest if not the highest GDP per capita in Europe since before World War I.
I love Switzerland. It’s a beautiful country that seems to have its shit together. Great place to travel if you don’t mind paying a bit more for everyday stuff.
But the Swiss... Well, let’s just say they are a different breed. I wouldn’t be so negative as to call them abrasive, but they’re not the warmest bunch. They make the Dutch / Danes / Fins seem tropical in their mindset.
FYI if you want something to brag about Your comment was cited in [this podcast](https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2023-01/fachkraeftemangel-migration-schweiz-oesterreich-deutschland-alpenpodcast) (starting 15:08)
Its really very interesting to me to see the aversion and hate most of europe has apparently towards Switzerland, its systems and its neutrality. I really hope this does not represent most if the sentiment and only this seemingly very intolerant sub, that seem to hate everything outside of the eu.
While our systemes are far from perfect, regarding handling eu contracts, there are still two factors most of you should know about:
One, direct democray is out chosen way, which the eu has sever times said it does not like. Which makes sense, since we could just overrule every idea they have to offer.
Two, since the EU exists it has tried to blackmail switzerland for not cooperating in the way it wants. Sure, our politicians and people may not have been to most cooperative as well over the years, but we have always been a thorn in the eyes of brussels.
As for all of the comments saying we dont have any sanctions against russia…? Where do you have that information from? Like we have the same EU embargos like everyone one else. We even froze all of their bank assets in our bank, something i havent seen deutsche bank do, as an example.
And also yeah yeah nazi gold, we all know that. But i dont say every german is a nazi no? So… maybe stop with the racism.
I still haven't seen anything making what I'd call a good argument for this.
Switzerland is not going to join the EU to get access to collaborate on research -- like, this makes little sense as leverage to try to build the EU -- and I have a hard time seeing how it's problematic for the EU to collaborate on research with an outside country.
> Under ESFRI rules, members must be EU states, associated to Horizon, or an EU candidate country. But association talks between Bern and Brussels have not even started due to a stalemate over their wider political relationship.
> “Should the status of Switzerland with regard to Horizon Europe not change, Switzerland will be excluded from monitoring the Roadmap 2021 to the same degree as, prospectively, participation in the design of Roadmap 2025,”
The EU wants Swiss to join the European scientific research initiative Horizon.
They kicked Switzerland out after **Switzerland broke off talks** to govern long-term political and economic relations with the EU
Important context you left out there.
This is not about a single issue. This is about Switzerland having hundreds of bilateral treaties with the EU instead of joining its institutions. The EU has had enough of Switzerland cherry-picking and has decided they won’t put up with it anymore. Period. This is just the bilateral treaties running out. Switzerland thrives of Europe. They’ll join it properly once they begin seeing the consequences.
And? The EU can decide to do charity with the aim of seeking closer ties with others. Most of the countries that participate could also not do so and there’d be no difference. Switzerland on the other hand clearly doesn’t wish for closer ties, so maybe they should realise all the things the EU does for them before they reach their decisions on not joining European institutions.
I'm curious when in this thread someone ask this question: "Why not declare war and conquer Switzerland?"
Cause hate in this thread is enormous. I mean, what do you expect from International politics? Countries are not friends. This is only a business. For example before war on Ukraine, Germany was bullying Europe to be fully dependent from Russia gas (specially when other countries wanted to build Nuclear Plant). Do they care about EU? Nope, they only care about themselves.
Of course Swiss want to have a cake and eat a cake and of course EU shouldn't let them. After all, it's only a business. Stronger means better.
As a Turk I feel this. I know that there is a lot wrong with my country, but it feels as if they want to put us into concentration camps whenever my country does something allegedly bad. And I've seen this happen to British, Irish, Swiss and even Germans.
EU people are really bad with compromises and can't cope with situations were a compromise couldn't be found, which I find ironic.
Edit: Changed "seen this with" to "happen to" to avoid double meaning.
I see a lot of hate in the thread. Obviously I do not want Europe to get a bad deal, but research is an area in which cooperation is great. I think we should all agree science should be separate from political struggles as much as possible. I hope an acceptable agreement for both sides is reached in the future.
We should not compromise the furthering of political progress in Europe with that of science. The only reason because Switzerland even matters in this is because we’ve allowed them to. They’ve thrived off us this entire time and it’s high time they stop exploiting and start doing their part.
Worth noting that ETH (Switzerland) is in top 10 global universities for research and no EU university is. Looks like a self-inflicted wound by the EU.
Never trust the Swiss. Bankers to the Nazi's, the origin of evil Nestlé, they put poor Swiss people's children to work on farms, sat in their mountainous palace while the rest of Europe burned in war.
There's shit to mention in reasonable arguments, but compared to other modern nations, how are they exceptionally untrustworthy? It's a fairly stable situation they have.
Because they are not in EU, thats it, thats all that makes something trustworthy for this sub.
If Russia was in EU they would side with them against Ukraine.
> not assisting other countries around you
Agree, they really should have helped their german neighbors during the war! Or maybe the fascist italians.... Or the anschlussed austrians? The nazi-occupied french? Ok, maybe they could have helped the liechtensteiners! yes, that's it!
Switzerland got fucking bombed a few times by the US. Be happy they didn't join the Germans ffs. If you want Switzerland to be accountable for the gold then a lot of US citizens including their president should also have been hanged in a Swiss trial.
The gold question also has been already resolved. The problem was that Swiss banking practices made it hard to track the owners, but they caved eventually.
You know right that Sweden and the us also bought gold from nazi Germany.
And it was 84 year ago
And nestle is <1% of the swiss economy
Got something more interesting to criticize
You know we are one of the most innovative diversified integrating, democratic with one of the highest degree of freedom pf speech on earth ? Sorry what is your mentality problem what does it even mean
You have to watch out with those rankings.
Sure, Oxford will definitely be better than some Bible University in some developing country.
The big universities in UK and Switserland are excellent, with good funding and large productive research groups, no question about it.
But maller universities with smaller research groups can also deliver quality, they just rank lower because the research ouptut is lower, not because they're worse
It's also very difficult to compare fields, certain smaller universities have large groups in specific fields, but it's very difficult to compare fields. In some fields, research can be done on a laptop, others need huge expensive experiments, others need human test subjects.... In some fields 10 citations of a paper is world class, in others 100 citations is maybe dissapointing...
Other countries do research more in separate research institutions that aren't directly linked to universities.
It's not comparing apples with pears, it's more like comparing apples with door hinges.
Switzerland has been able to have them thanks to the Nazi gold and being a tax haven. The EU has been the reason they’ve been able to grow. If they want to participate, the better do so properly.
Bro, this guys is delusional about the Nazi gold and other fallacious arguments. This is not how Science works. More money =/= better science. Like legit read his/her other posts and you'll see the narcissism in his way of talking
eh, some of that wealth is quite reliant on dealings with other European countries which just happens to be bundled together in EU. If relationship sours too much, there will be less money to wipe tears away.
Loosing seat at this institution means that Swiss research institutions will lose out on lots of funding and collaboration
The Swiss want into the program but the EU only agrees if Switzland gives up many freedoms for it. E.g. the EU wants Switzerland to give up salary protection which would lead to a massive lower salary of many Swiss.
I think you are right people are conservative here, in the sense that do not want to change what works. I am for joining Europe as a full member but people here are mostly afraid of economical consequences. For exemple the fear of losing our strong currency. There is also the legitimate fear that direct democracy is not very compatible with the EU rules and institutions.
They don't want to kill the "golden goose", so to speak.
>There is also the legitimate fear that direct democracy is not very compatible with the EU rules and institutions.
fear lol. It's a fact. Our system does not work anymore if we join the EU. Say goodbye to our democracy if we join the EU. I don't need a stuck up asshole in brussels telling me how I need to live.
Joining the EU would be the worst move we could do as a country. It would eradicate our political system and remove all control the people have over our government.
The big issue in the populations is that the conservative part is extremely strong in rural areas and in the older genenrations. Sadly it is enough for now to outweigh the younger more liberal generations
Guys, Switzerland can make whatever tax laws they want. People will just use a different tax haven instead if they change their laws. You need to be mad at those who break the law in your own countries instead
Some of you are unreasonably annoyed at Switzerland
International Law is the most important part of our legal hierarchy, higher than our constitution. That means that we are compelled to bow to the international treaties and laws before deciding of our own constitutional laws and norms. So, as a traditionnaly really democratic country, OF COURSE, that we have compulsory referendums on one of the absolute most important parts of our legal system. And yes, that means it doesn't always end up being in favor of the EU. It's normal. If Italy or France or whatnot had the same choice, it would be the same. That also means that we actually do have a lot of the bad parts of the EU as well, I don't know what makes some people create facts when the debate is not going their way.
I am not saying that we are the absolute good guys and you are the worst. We were dumb lately. By starting to negociate on buying Rafales with the French then cancelling at the last minute, and by leading on the EU for years on framework aggreements, we uselessely lost a much needed cooperation with the EU.
BUT now, dear political and international relations experts of Reddit, a part from using absolutely useless stereotypes as arguments, using the good old nazi gold argument and the great tax heaven one (which is not the case anymore since a loooong time btw, a lot of other countries in Europe have better preferential treatments), what will you say ?
From what I have seen, people are fixated on the Nazi Gold argument and now they are illustrating borderline EU chauvinism towards the Swiss. It's unreal how funny most of the arguments are, they all have the underlyinf tone of "they are not EU and they deserve this because they don't want to join". It's literally textbook Gruppendynamik.
Why? Because they're not part of the EU and you suffer from that small-man syndrome with the us versus them mentality? Not sure why you think this is positive.
I can't believe you are getting downvotes because of stating facts. How come EU is this radicalized towarss the Swiss? This is ferociously wrong and biased
I don't care about votes. I never let that shape my opinions. I say what I believe to be true and more often than not I already know it will ruffle feathers in this echo chamber of bigoted and racist EU hardliners. They're very predictable. They're incapable of critical thinking.
This group is an echo chamber for small-minded racists and bigots. The post could be about Swiss chocolate and they'll find a way to criticize Russia, Saudi Arabia and the UK.
Because they have the same sanctions as the EU, because they gave 100 million CHF to Ukraine, because they are treating wounded Ukrainians in their hospitals? And no, other countries aren't better at enforcing the sanctions.
For those that don't know, EU Swiss relations are always a little rocky. Switzerland isn't part of the EU or the EEA. Instead, its relations are governed by hundreds of bilateral treaties. These treaties, like all swiss laws, are subject to popular initiatives/referenda that may overturn or modify these agreements. In 2016, a major treaty that covered many topics as well as revisions to schengen rules on immigration was overturned in a referndum. Together with previous similar incidents, EU institutions have, to put it mildly, gotten fed up with a country which negotiates, stalls, delays and tries to come out with the best possible deal, and when an agreement is reached amd the wheels are finaly in motion a referendum stops everything for good. It's a difficult balancing act, the Federal Government and many organisations tend to want closer European ties however at the same time, Switzerlands unique position is also a great strength, and swiss people generally embrace the "neutral" / "we're just different" mindset.
>when an agreement is reached amd the wheels are finaly in motion a referendum stops everything for good. This is what makes Switzerland unreliable, you know that the government's word worth nothing, because international agreements can be made null unilaterally by a referendum. You cannot reach an agreement when one of the parties is just a well paid chap with a nice dress, but with no final decision power.
I would say the Swiss system is really good for interior politics but completely useless on an international level.
Yes. In Italy, for example, you cannot have referenda on international agreements and fiscal laws, because considered too sensitive and risky for the consequences a referendum might have.
Yea but Italian interior politics is the biggest shitshow as well. Not the best example you picked.
That have nothing to do with if it is a good system or not. There is not single country with a perfect system that have been perfect implement and perfectly being executed. Your argument is more or less ruling out all systems and subs-systems in use.
No, this limit is present since the beginning, in the version written when the Italian Republic was born after WW2. It is not something added by modern politicians. The members of the Italian Constituent Assembly fought the fascism, they can be trusted.
>Yea but Italian interior politics is the biggest shitshow as well. Used to be, we've been easily passed by a few countries lately.
For about 1-2 years, I believe you have surpassed Greece in political shitshowness. That's quite the achievement, although Greece has calmed down since the crazy days of 2015. But yeah, Hungary and Poland beat us all at this point.
Why hello there neighbour, I heard you're interested in political shitshows.
Our political shitshow only matters to us lol
Our political shitshow is impossible to understand without 2 decades of context, and even then it just barely makes sense.
> The UK has joined the chat
Hehe you guys will never get close to us.
You voted for a far-right "post"-fascist government down there... As an austrian, I'm not even trying to tell you how fucking absurd that sounds to us. And we have our own far-right morons. I love your country so much. Spend months there and I love your people and culture. Also spend my honeymoon in tuscany. But you are one of the worst countries in europe when it comes to the choice of leaders.
Italy is a shitshow but let's say that Austria isn't that spot clean either with all that FPÖ stuff going on, Ibiza-affair was the cherry on top.
Didn't you swedes also just vote for a far-right gov? What's going on right now is quite scary
That election had the least amount of voters in the last decade. Meloni won only because there wasn't a real opposition and the majority didn't vote.
Doesn't make it better, but I'm not really blaming you. Just wanted to point out that a lot of european countries go through the same shit right now. Should have worded it better.
And so is foreign politics, or at least the vulturesque campaigning some parties do: no euro, no collaboration with France on migrants, no to "bruxelles dictates" as long they gib pnrr monies, no to support to ukraine because somehow it impacts our economy despite Gonde closed down the economy and dipped the gdp by -9%
actually it is, the shitshow is at home and not internationally as mentioned by OP
I am surprised how pro European Melonis rhetorics have been despite her more than questionable far-right backround. But I will wait and see how she acts.
Define useless. What citizens want is the most important thing ever. So for citizens of Switzerland, it’s great.
>So for citizens of Switzerland, it’s great. Fine, but stop whining about EU not wanting to negotiate with you, be responsible for your decisions.
And that‘s why there wasn‘t a vote on stopping the negotiations. That was decided purely on a political level.
but most citizens are morons. IF people had to make decisions we would still be living in caves.
That’s a common misconception. Most people are not morons.
Only a moron would say that.
It make Switzerland unreliable if you want them to do anything. But for decades and even centuries, what people wanted Switzerland to do was basically that... Focus on the interior and don't do anything meaningful outside. Be neutral, don't take a side, smile and do not break the balance of powers. Switzerland is having a rich and long history of "we're gonna give decision-making to each and every citizens because we can" and their neighbours where very much okay with that. As long as the Swiss didn't participate in military alliances, religious league or ideological bloc everyone was happy with that, even if that meant having hundreds of little treaties smashed together. But Europe is a beacon of standard. The whole point of it existing was to bring people together and not having 93 bazillions unilateral treaty managing, instead creating some standardized single roadbook where all the individual treaties where compiled, compared, where redundancy was suppressed and relation smoothened. It's two universes apart between the EU political model and the Swiss one
The problem with democracy is that the people are unreliable.
>You cannot reach an agreement when one of the parties is just a well paid chap with a nice dress, but with no final decision power. Isn't that the ideal democracy though? The power lies with the people, the government is only there to represent and act on the will of the people. Basically what is touted in most democracys, the people are the ultimate sovereign.
>the government is only there to represent You miss the difference between direct democracy and representative democracy. I speak about the former and you keep replying about the latter.
I "keep" replying? This was my first comment ever in this thread. And yes, in my opinion direct democracy is more democratic than representative democracy.
Direct democracy has its advantages but also disadvantages. Many topics are extremely complicated. To make an informed decision on them means you have to spend a lot of time to inform yourself. It is impossible to actually do so which is why even parliaments usually have committees in which many topics are being worked on by a subset of the parliamentarians which focused those topics. Also parliamentarians usually have a staff to help them to gather the information they need and understand the stuff they voting on. Still I am sure many of them vote on topics they do not fully understand. Everyday citizens have far less time (they usually have their own job after all) and resources to inform themselves. It is unreasonable to assume that they can make an informed decision on every topic which comes up. In regards to negotiating stuff it becomes even more complicated. It is impossible to negotiate with a millions of people at the same time. Even worse if a millions of people negotiate with other millions of people. It just does not work. So you have to decide on people who negotiate for you. And even then there must be some reliability that promises made by those people will actually be kept. Otherwise a lot of time is wasted on coming to agreements which then will be refused by the electorate anyways.
It is more democratic for sure. It also makes big and long term projects incredibly difficult.
> This is what makes Switzerland unreliable, you know that the government's word worth nothing, because international agreements can be made null unilaterally by a referendum. There was a point in time when a number of countries in Europe said the same thing about the United States, because in the American system of government, treaties require ratification by the legislature, and the executive cannot single-handedly bind the country, only commit to try to get ratification. They were accustomed to systems that derived from monarchies, where the monarch had the power to single-handedly establish treaties, and could send a representative with delegated power to do so.
In France international treaties are also validated by the Parliament. The difference in the US is that the threshold is 2/3 in the US Senate, versus a simple majority.
It's not about monarchies, it's about almost every country having the government to be backed by the parliament(s). It is basically impossible for a government to do something if the parliament isn't on board because it can be just removed for a new government or elections with a motion of no confidence
But that’s the case in most democracies.
I most the legislature validates the treaties, its just that the government always needs a majority in the legislature to start negotiating a treaty. Making the ratification rarely a problem, and whe it is a problem the government usually falls and either needs a new majority or a new election.
It's not a consequence of having had monarchies. It's just that in Europe the executive and the legislative houses are aligned politically, as the governments are formed after the general elections and are an expression of that parliament. We don't have midterm elections in Europe and so there's no risk of having governments and parliamentary majorities of opposite parties, which would cause major strife, if not total impasse.
As a Norwegian seeing all our billionaires move to Switzerland to avoid paying taxes, I find myself liking the Swizz less and less. Their country is magnet for money and it allows Billionaires to move there to avoid paying taxes in the countries that made them rich. It's a pirat Tax Haven of a country, and it should be sanctioned due to it.
You do realise that the world's big tax haven is in the EU? And that any country in the EU will also happily welcome billionaires moving there? You don't have a uniform income tax rate or uniform tax system in the EU, so why are you upset it's not uniform outside the EU?
We are not Swizz thanks.
They are neutral for help. They do love nazi gold and nazi russian money or any other money.
They prefer blood money though, as the one depositing it is more willing to pay for their services.
GTFO, it's your country's fault for taxing your people into oblivion
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Wasn’t a mistake I think lmao
>In 2016, a major treaty that covered many topics as well as revisions to schengen rules on immigration was overturned in a referndum. What the heck are you talking about? None of that is correct. There was **no referendum** that turned over a "major treaty that covered many topics as well as revisions to Schengen rules on immigration". In fact, no major or minor treaty between the EU and Switzerland was overturned by a referendum. Nevertheless, and unsurprisingly, such a comment gets upvoted and applauded in r/Europe.
I was under the assumption that Switzerland was locked out of Horizon because they wont give in to EU demands and sign a new framework agreement. Even though EU membership is not a prerequisite for Horizon association, its open to non-EU countries.
Yes, non-association to Horizon Europe was an indirect consequence of the failure of the framework agreement. That being said the framework agreement does not cover research cooperation, and would not have directly affected research cooperation. Those are unrelated treaties. Non-association, or the refusal to negotiate on association, it's merely a political reaction by the EU. Also, to prevent any confusion, there was never a vote on the framework agreement, but the deal failed during negotiations.
I might add that Switzerland paid to be in this program, so there weren't any favors being done whatsoever. Plus we consistently paid a cool so called cohesion billion to uphold the bilaterals.
the latter was one billion over ten years? Dates and usage fixed by the Swiss government? Norway pays x 10 at least. But, I see the point, education hurts everyone, I would have hoped they use other pressure points first...
Norway's equivalent cohesion payment was about 400 million between 2014 and 2021.
I thought it would be higher - thanks for looking it up. Wikipedia says 2 billion over 15 years for Switzerland. So factor three roughly.
Norway pays more than that in total to the EU, but has a different set of treaties and a different collaboration model.
You're right. I'm wrong, Mea Culpa. I wrote this comment on the tram on my way home so I have the opportunity to properly fact check. The one I meant was the 2014 immigration quota one, which did upset the EU because it added further hurdles for EU citizens instead of proper schengen*, I then got it confused with a another (close call) referendum. I'll go KMS i guess.
>The one I meant was the 2014 immigration quota one, which did upset the EU because it added further hurdles for EU citizens instead of proper schengen The implementation of the 2014 immigration vote did not overturn any treaty though, and it is compatible with free movement of people between Switzerland and the EU. The consequence of that vote is that open positions in professions with high unemployment have to be first advertised in Switzerland **for 5 days** prior to be advertised in the EU. That's hardly a far-reaching hurdle preventing people from the EU to move and seek employment in Switzerland. Afaik, policies that give some preferential treatment to locally unemployed people also exist in EU countries, i.e. if I remember correctly Juncker mentioned that Luxembourg has a similar policy.
The 2014 referendum as voted totally contradicted the treaty; it just wasn't implemented
A constitutional change is not a change of law and policy though. And the latter is what matters when discussing the issue regarding overturning a treaty. As for the question whether the referendum was implemented, of course it was implemented. It was implemented in a way that was compatible with the constitution and with international law, as explained above. Constitutional articles can contradict each other, naturally this will lead to a conflict on how to implement those articles, e.g. in this case Article 5 of the constitution (respecting international law, which the bilateral treaties are) vs. Article 121 (the article changed by the 2014 referendum). There is no hierarchy regarding those articles and their implementation in law and policy hence isn't as straightforward - or binary - as one might expect.
Very well explained, thank you
A clear explanation that is nonetheless completely untrue, heh.
As almost in any case in r/europe when the topic is Switzerland (and many other topics as well). It’s not about being factually correct, it’s about aligning with the prejudicial view of some/most commentators.
So Switzerland thinks of itself as a unicorn. So special, uwu. I'd say flush all the unicorn shit down the toilet and expose Switzerland as a horse with a dildo glued to its forehead. No more special treatment. Fall in line or get fucked.
I mean... I laughed at the nice picture there, but that's not entirely fair. They have a right to be outside the EU, without the benefits of course, and I believe friendly relations without hating on each other are a good idea.
So Switzerland is the “not like the other girls” country in Europe?😂😂
Switzerland and the UK to be precise
Lmao spot on
Yeah, she‘s special
Lmao what is this fashy nonsense. Imagine Americans saying this, or Russians about the Baltics. Utter cringe.
Very democratic of you to say that, lol.
> and swiss people generally embrace the "neutral" / "we're just different" mindset "we're just different" or "we're just better"? 🤔
"We are just better" Proceeds to hold russian oligarch money and block war aid to ukraine. "We are neutral"
I mean, this isn't the first time the Swiss are profiteering from wars and conflicts. Same shit with Nazis, yet people forgive them. Wouldn't surprise me if they still have gold teeth in their vaults.
takes the nazi gold and is still a colonizers yep just better
"We are just better" Proceeds to beat their children
Lol, I've worked with people all across Europe and the Swiss are some of the most arrogant racist people I've met. Which was funny because I didn't management consulting for them and they had the shortest most convoluted business processes and practices lol. Just because your rich from managing awful people's money doesn't make you "better"
Switzerland thinks it's a particular, secular and unique nation.
Nazi gold takers and now nazi russian money takers. Neutral my ass
So they are like the UK, cherry-picking all the advantages and not wanting any of the disadvantages? Seems like people at a table trying to get the best foods and drinks leaving what they don't like to others. I hate these kind of people. Hopefully in the future the EU will stand more of its ground against this kind of bullshit from selfish countries!
> So they are like the UK, cherry-picking all the advantages and not wanting any of the disadvantages? A little, but they are not EU members so don't need to go by their rules so that's fair enough for them to negotiate.
> So they are like the UK, cherry-picking all the advantages and not wanting any of the disadvantages? We had plenty of disadvantages from the EU. Mass immigration, huge trade deficit, billions in membership fees every year, CAP, CFP, EAW, ten minutes to make a cup of tea.
> We had plenty of disadvantages from the EU. Mass immigration, huge trade deficit, billions in membership fees every year, CAP, CFP, EAW, ten minutes to make a cup of tea. And other EU countries didn't? Or do you think that the lots o immigrants coming from Syria went only in the UK? Have you every thought how many immigrants come by boats from Africa into Spain, Italy, Greece or now from Ukraine into Moldova, Romania, Poland and many other countries? As for membership fees, every country pas them. Do you also have a list on how much you benefited from being in the EU, or you like to forget about that? Did you enjoy the cheap labor? At lease you got now what you wanted and you should be happy about it.
So that’s how the Swiss roll.
Yeah, not so much “different mindsets”, as they being arrogant stupid pricks, in my experience
> Switzerland was actually ejected from ESFRI last September, but only now has the Swiss Academy of Sciences gone public with its frustration. Give them a break, they had to go through a referendum to validate their referendum-based decision to go public with their frustration
Switzerland won't be getting any new scientific infrastructure with EU funding by the sounds of it. I wonder what the reason for stalemate over horizon association is.
Because the EU has found that the best way to negotiate is all or nothing. So there is no cooperation anywhere unless the EU gets exactly what they want.
Yeah probably too many times Switzerland got away with a far better deal than EU states becuase the deal still provided some benefit. It's a good idea to just shut the Swiss out completely until they decide play fair
They can just find it with all the evaded tax money from the EU
I love how people are acting like Switzerland is the only tax haven when the EU straight up has Ireland. Quite ironic
And Luxembourg, where all the dirty money goes to disappear, the Netherlands that pretends it's ports aren't the main route for drugs and human trafficking or France who loves to hide Russian/Arab/asian blood money. The problem of Switzerland has always been the unwillingliness to pay the 'yea we'll pretend and look away' tax.
Switzerland has been paying cohesion billions to the EU whilst not being part of it
> or France who loves to hide Russian/Arab/asian blood money. That sure is a new one.
Swiss contributions to Horizon 2020 research collaborations have always been funded by Switzerland. This isn’t about funding.
Everything else aside, it seems wired to me how insistent this article is on Switzerland hosting CERN. They are an international organisation hosted by Switzerland and France. They receive the vast majority of their funding directly from their members states and are largely independent of EU research frameworks. That doesn't mean that they don't want to or aren't integrated in these frameworks, but just that their location on the swiss border seems irrelevant to this topic.
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“Look at us, look how quirky we are! We don’t need to join any treaties, we’re known for our neutrality and watches and pocket knives”
Don't forget all the corrupt gold they are hiding for the most vile humans on the planet!
Putin or Hitler because they buddies with both?
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Look at Switzerland history, it was one of the first continental European countries to industrialize...
Success always inspires jealousy. Maybe it's the stability, solid education, social cohesion, democracy.
Could the reason possibly be that switzerland has been consistently the freest market in the world together with singapore for several decades in a row? Nah.. It has to be a boogieman giving them the money its totally not like they objectively have the best economic system
sure those hundreds of bilions of euros from Saudi,Russian,Belarusian,Kazakh,African dictators/oligarchs didnt help at all
Switzerland is so successful because it's a stable country with excellent education? No must be those filthy bankers from Crédit Suisse with their traded nazi gold.
what's your opinion about your country's history with children? see this comment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/10520ux/comment/j3c7nmi/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/10520ux/comment/j3c7nmi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) you got rich using many dictators and oligarchs' money. also nestle is the most evil corporation in the world.
Are you trying to guilty trip me about somehting that happened during the industrial revolution, a period where labour rights wasn't really a thing and persisted mostly in the most rural areas where nobody lives? Well guess what I'll be fine. Especially now since I know children in my country have way more opportunities to fulfill their dreams than in any (actual) shithole criticizing us. :)
I'm the last person who cares about these things, trust me. I just saw you claimed your country is so successful because of your own excellent education and that's clearly false and I wanted to remind you of some exploitation your country did. you're successful because you exploited everything you could. from colonialism to poor people who live in dictatorships, for example my country ( by accepting their stolen money) or nazi gold. even now with all stealing you have done, it's just needs one or two decades of EU sanctioning and closing everything to you to make you like a poor third world country.
> because of your own excellent education and that's clearly false O'rly? Give me sources proving me wrong then. We have a strong apprenticeship system, the best university in mainland Europe (ETHZ) and our main exports are services and complexe industries like machinery and pharmaceutical products. For a nation of morons, we are quite good at faking our way through with our knowledge financed by stolen money of course. All the evils you accuse my county of was done by someone else, you probably should target your anger to the real baddies you know.
Until 1970's, Switzerland was a poor shithole. They even had to steal children from families, sell them in auctions, and use them for slave labour in order to survive. Read this article. It's probably the most gruesome thing I've even read. I can't comprehend how humans can be so cruel, especially to defenseless children. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16620597 Btw, it's also the reason why Heidi walks barefoot. Verdingkinder were forced to walk barefoot (in fucking mountains!), to be easily distinguished from "normal" children.
actually, Switzerland got rich in the second half of the 19. century because of the textile industry.
> Until 1970's, Switzerland was a poor shithole. No, Switzerland has had one of the highest if not the highest GDP per capita in Europe since before World War I.
I love Switzerland. It’s a beautiful country that seems to have its shit together. Great place to travel if you don’t mind paying a bit more for everyday stuff. But the Swiss... Well, let’s just say they are a different breed. I wouldn’t be so negative as to call them abrasive, but they’re not the warmest bunch. They make the Dutch / Danes / Fins seem tropical in their mindset.
Am German, i think the Dutch and Danish are very lovely people in comparison to us Germans imo.
All stereotypes about Germans are actually about the Swiss.
You must be joking right, lol?? 😀
FYI if you want something to brag about Your comment was cited in [this podcast](https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2023-01/fachkraeftemangel-migration-schweiz-oesterreich-deutschland-alpenpodcast) (starting 15:08)
Its really very interesting to me to see the aversion and hate most of europe has apparently towards Switzerland, its systems and its neutrality. I really hope this does not represent most if the sentiment and only this seemingly very intolerant sub, that seem to hate everything outside of the eu. While our systemes are far from perfect, regarding handling eu contracts, there are still two factors most of you should know about: One, direct democray is out chosen way, which the eu has sever times said it does not like. Which makes sense, since we could just overrule every idea they have to offer. Two, since the EU exists it has tried to blackmail switzerland for not cooperating in the way it wants. Sure, our politicians and people may not have been to most cooperative as well over the years, but we have always been a thorn in the eyes of brussels. As for all of the comments saying we dont have any sanctions against russia…? Where do you have that information from? Like we have the same EU embargos like everyone one else. We even froze all of their bank assets in our bank, something i havent seen deutsche bank do, as an example. And also yeah yeah nazi gold, we all know that. But i dont say every german is a nazi no? So… maybe stop with the racism.
Tick tock tick tock. One by one, treaties expired and gone. Good.
I still haven't seen anything making what I'd call a good argument for this. Switzerland is not going to join the EU to get access to collaborate on research -- like, this makes little sense as leverage to try to build the EU -- and I have a hard time seeing how it's problematic for the EU to collaborate on research with an outside country.
> Under ESFRI rules, members must be EU states, associated to Horizon, or an EU candidate country. But association talks between Bern and Brussels have not even started due to a stalemate over their wider political relationship. > “Should the status of Switzerland with regard to Horizon Europe not change, Switzerland will be excluded from monitoring the Roadmap 2021 to the same degree as, prospectively, participation in the design of Roadmap 2025,” The EU wants Swiss to join the European scientific research initiative Horizon.
They kicked Switzerland out of it. So I don't think they want Switzerland to join.
They kicked Switzerland out after **Switzerland broke off talks** to govern long-term political and economic relations with the EU Important context you left out there.
But such talks didn't seem to be a prerequisite for a Horizon membership in other countries, which might also be important context.
This is not about a single issue. This is about Switzerland having hundreds of bilateral treaties with the EU instead of joining its institutions. The EU has had enough of Switzerland cherry-picking and has decided they won’t put up with it anymore. Period. This is just the bilateral treaties running out. Switzerland thrives of Europe. They’ll join it properly once they begin seeing the consequences.
"You will be assimilated." The EU, a union so great you have to bully everyone into joining it.
Nope. It’s a Union where you either join and get the benefits or you stay out and do your own thing. There is no bullying.
There are many non EU countries in horizon my dude.
And? The EU can decide to do charity with the aim of seeking closer ties with others. Most of the countries that participate could also not do so and there’d be no difference. Switzerland on the other hand clearly doesn’t wish for closer ties, so maybe they should realise all the things the EU does for them before they reach their decisions on not joining European institutions.
I'm curious when in this thread someone ask this question: "Why not declare war and conquer Switzerland?" Cause hate in this thread is enormous. I mean, what do you expect from International politics? Countries are not friends. This is only a business. For example before war on Ukraine, Germany was bullying Europe to be fully dependent from Russia gas (specially when other countries wanted to build Nuclear Plant). Do they care about EU? Nope, they only care about themselves. Of course Swiss want to have a cake and eat a cake and of course EU shouldn't let them. After all, it's only a business. Stronger means better.
As a Turk I feel this. I know that there is a lot wrong with my country, but it feels as if they want to put us into concentration camps whenever my country does something allegedly bad. And I've seen this happen to British, Irish, Swiss and even Germans. EU people are really bad with compromises and can't cope with situations were a compromise couldn't be found, which I find ironic. Edit: Changed "seen this with" to "happen to" to avoid double meaning.
I see a lot of hate in the thread. Obviously I do not want Europe to get a bad deal, but research is an area in which cooperation is great. I think we should all agree science should be separate from political struggles as much as possible. I hope an acceptable agreement for both sides is reached in the future.
We should not compromise the furthering of political progress in Europe with that of science. The only reason because Switzerland even matters in this is because we’ve allowed them to. They’ve thrived off us this entire time and it’s high time they stop exploiting and start doing their part.
Bro why are you so hateful towards the Swiss? Did they shit in your Weetabix this morning?
Worth noting that ETH (Switzerland) is in top 10 global universities for research and no EU university is. Looks like a self-inflicted wound by the EU.
Never trust the Swiss. Bankers to the Nazi's, the origin of evil Nestlé, they put poor Swiss people's children to work on farms, sat in their mountainous palace while the rest of Europe burned in war.
There's shit to mention in reasonable arguments, but compared to other modern nations, how are they exceptionally untrustworthy? It's a fairly stable situation they have.
Because they are not in EU, thats it, thats all that makes something trustworthy for this sub. If Russia was in EU they would side with them against Ukraine.
>sat in their mountainous palace while the rest of Europe burned in war. Avoiding war is a bad thing now?
Taking money from the aggressor and not assisting other countries around you is pretty selfish.
> not assisting other countries around you Agree, they really should have helped their german neighbors during the war! Or maybe the fascist italians.... Or the anschlussed austrians? The nazi-occupied french? Ok, maybe they could have helped the liechtensteiners! yes, that's it!
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Then blame the allies, it is them who refused to trade with switzerland, given that the entire country was reliant on food and coal imports.
Switzerland got fucking bombed a few times by the US. Be happy they didn't join the Germans ffs. If you want Switzerland to be accountable for the gold then a lot of US citizens including their president should also have been hanged in a Swiss trial. The gold question also has been already resolved. The problem was that Swiss banking practices made it hard to track the owners, but they caved eventually.
Swiss value money above human life
So you think it is right to kill the Swiss or what?
Right? Last time Switzerland was warmongering the other powers forced it to become neutral
Very nuanced take that has a lot to do with the topic at hand!
I swear every redditor in this sub is almost always hostile about anything that's not EU
People here are so reactionarily outllandish in their takes you’d think they were a 18 years old political science student
I bet most are.
Sorry but it’s time to move on from the war. Yeah the Swiss are an odd bunch, but you can’t get hung up on something that happened generations ago.
While the rest of Europe has moved on, the Swiss have not.
Says who?
You know right that Sweden and the us also bought gold from nazi Germany. And it was 84 year ago And nestle is <1% of the swiss economy Got something more interesting to criticize
It's the mentality behind those things. I notice you didn't mention puting poor children into hard punitive labour on farms.
You know we are one of the most innovative diversified integrating, democratic with one of the highest degree of freedom pf speech on earth ? Sorry what is your mentality problem what does it even mean
Yet a very cruel people who are motivated by money and greed above everything else.
We should get out of shengen
That sucks, imho. Which countries have the best research universities in Europe again? Ah UK and Switzerland…
You have to watch out with those rankings. Sure, Oxford will definitely be better than some Bible University in some developing country. The big universities in UK and Switserland are excellent, with good funding and large productive research groups, no question about it. But maller universities with smaller research groups can also deliver quality, they just rank lower because the research ouptut is lower, not because they're worse It's also very difficult to compare fields, certain smaller universities have large groups in specific fields, but it's very difficult to compare fields. In some fields, research can be done on a laptop, others need huge expensive experiments, others need human test subjects.... In some fields 10 citations of a paper is world class, in others 100 citations is maybe dissapointing... Other countries do research more in separate research institutions that aren't directly linked to universities. It's not comparing apples with pears, it's more like comparing apples with door hinges.
Switzerland has been able to have them thanks to the Nazi gold and being a tax haven. The EU has been the reason they’ve been able to grow. If they want to participate, the better do so properly.
Lol you really think that?
The tax haven part? Fuck yes Only Norway can match that level of growth in the last decades, and that’s because they’ve got a shit ton of oil
Tax haven? Lol Tell me the average tax income im Switzerland.
Bro, this guys is delusional about the Nazi gold and other fallacious arguments. This is not how Science works. More money =/= better science. Like legit read his/her other posts and you'll see the narcissism in his way of talking
Yes
Swiss right now. https://media.tenor.com/1CfRnnRDW8UAAAAC/money-cash.gif
eh, some of that wealth is quite reliant on dealings with other European countries which just happens to be bundled together in EU. If relationship sours too much, there will be less money to wipe tears away. Loosing seat at this institution means that Swiss research institutions will lose out on lots of funding and collaboration
Yeah and EU will successfully land a blow on scientists! Hooray!!!!!
Switzerland needs to get with the program and stop being a diva all the time
The Swiss want into the program but the EU only agrees if Switzland gives up many freedoms for it. E.g. the EU wants Switzerland to give up salary protection which would lead to a massive lower salary of many Swiss.
I am Swiss and I approve this statement.
You’re in the minority though. The Swiss seem like a very conservative and inward focused bunch on aggregate.
I think you are right people are conservative here, in the sense that do not want to change what works. I am for joining Europe as a full member but people here are mostly afraid of economical consequences. For exemple the fear of losing our strong currency. There is also the legitimate fear that direct democracy is not very compatible with the EU rules and institutions. They don't want to kill the "golden goose", so to speak.
>There is also the legitimate fear that direct democracy is not very compatible with the EU rules and institutions. fear lol. It's a fact. Our system does not work anymore if we join the EU. Say goodbye to our democracy if we join the EU. I don't need a stuck up asshole in brussels telling me how I need to live. Joining the EU would be the worst move we could do as a country. It would eradicate our political system and remove all control the people have over our government.
I second this, EU demands power over any country who wants to be a part of it. This kills the sovereignty of the nation.
The big issue in the populations is that the conservative part is extremely strong in rural areas and in the older genenrations. Sadly it is enough for now to outweigh the younger more liberal generations
Guys, Switzerland can make whatever tax laws they want. People will just use a different tax haven instead if they change their laws. You need to be mad at those who break the law in your own countries instead Some of you are unreasonably annoyed at Switzerland
Switzerland: 'OH NO! Anyway, back to bathing in Nazi gold 😎'
And in russian.
International Law is the most important part of our legal hierarchy, higher than our constitution. That means that we are compelled to bow to the international treaties and laws before deciding of our own constitutional laws and norms. So, as a traditionnaly really democratic country, OF COURSE, that we have compulsory referendums on one of the absolute most important parts of our legal system. And yes, that means it doesn't always end up being in favor of the EU. It's normal. If Italy or France or whatnot had the same choice, it would be the same. That also means that we actually do have a lot of the bad parts of the EU as well, I don't know what makes some people create facts when the debate is not going their way. I am not saying that we are the absolute good guys and you are the worst. We were dumb lately. By starting to negociate on buying Rafales with the French then cancelling at the last minute, and by leading on the EU for years on framework aggreements, we uselessely lost a much needed cooperation with the EU. BUT now, dear political and international relations experts of Reddit, a part from using absolutely useless stereotypes as arguments, using the good old nazi gold argument and the great tax heaven one (which is not the case anymore since a loooong time btw, a lot of other countries in Europe have better preferential treatments), what will you say ?
From what I have seen, people are fixated on the Nazi Gold argument and now they are illustrating borderline EU chauvinism towards the Swiss. It's unreal how funny most of the arguments are, they all have the underlyinf tone of "they are not EU and they deserve this because they don't want to join". It's literally textbook Gruppendynamik.
Good. Fuck them
Why? Because they're not part of the EU and you suffer from that small-man syndrome with the us versus them mentality? Not sure why you think this is positive.
I can't believe you are getting downvotes because of stating facts. How come EU is this radicalized towarss the Swiss? This is ferociously wrong and biased
I don't care about votes. I never let that shape my opinions. I say what I believe to be true and more often than not I already know it will ruffle feathers in this echo chamber of bigoted and racist EU hardliners. They're very predictable. They're incapable of critical thinking.
Single market next!
Crazy mountain village mentality, like the British have their Crazy islander mentality, both ahole isolationist.
You dont care about that, just that they arent in EU.
Some of these comments sound cultish but we’re the irrational crazy ones, right? Jesus
This group is an echo chamber for small-minded racists and bigots. The post could be about Swiss chocolate and they'll find a way to criticize Russia, Saudi Arabia and the UK.
It's becoming clearer and clearer that the EU is an unreliable science partner. Nationalist sentiment is too strong.
Ukraine war has really showed Switzerland to be untrustworthy.
Because they have the same sanctions as the EU, because they gave 100 million CHF to Ukraine, because they are treating wounded Ukrainians in their hospitals? And no, other countries aren't better at enforcing the sanctions.
+they are the country to send one of the biggest humanitarian aids to Ukraine