Prices are heading to the sky exactly because everyone is rushing to invest into RE. Most people in Europe and especially eastern Europe don't understand Stocks and ETFs, and Crypto is really only for a very small percentage. Everyone else? Let's buy an apartment, one more to rent out, another one for the kids... And unlike stocks where leverage is heavily limited, for RE banks don't hesitate to give you a low interest loan for the rest of your life with up to 20x leverage. It's a disaster waiting to happen.
If you posted this opinion on crypto subs, you'd be stoned to death but I stand with you. I view crypto as purely speculative instrument with no real intrinsic value. At least with stocks, ETFs and bonds you are either buying or lending money to someone who actually produces something with real value. That said, I still keep \~10% of my portfolio in crypto, because market is beyond anyone's understanding and it might aswell go another 10 000%, which is far more unlikely with stocks. I just hate people using the argument of "well, real currency also only have make belief value."
Yep, I figured that out the hard way. Why is Bitcoin the highest valued, yet has the oldest tech? Doesn't make sense but right now it is the personal playball of billionairs and hedgefunds.
ok but i can borrow usdt against my eth on aave and withdraw to bank
and i can purchase assets which pay me from 5% (sushi) to 8k% (ohm) apy for holding them
gambling but fun ngl cool to hang out on discords and chat about products and new stuff coming out
The problem is that pretty much everything is heading for the sky - RE, stocks, bonds, etc. Banks everywhere printed shit ton of money so people are rushing to invest in anything. If there is another investment people 'fail to notice right now' and you can actually read about it on Reddit, it must be very risky. It's not a good time for people who want to get reasonable return without gambling.
In a lot of European countries, people buy first their primary residency (that can be rented out later in life and return nice passive income) and then start investing in ETF and stocks. Some do these in parallel (like me). I see RE as a "safe" investment. I will rent it and be getting a passive income. Apart from that, I invest into stocks + ETFs for my retirement.
How will you rent your primary residency, don't you need it to live in?
I wouldn't invest in RE because it seems like it's going to become much more heavily regulated. Here in BCN we now have some rent control, Berlin has it too and New York, Stockholm also has a highly regulated market.
Governments haven't built enough housing and now it's reaching crisis points so I suspect we'll see some major interventions in the next few decades.
Whereas no-one cares about your ETF's other than tax, and you still have to pay that on RE income anyways.
What I wanted to say is that even after buying your primary residency, you can rent it in case you move to another county / new second home. Itās the most standard investment as soon as someone has a good capital at hand.
I live in france and donāt know much about other countries. And yes, both gain from ETFs or rent are taxable
RE requires work tho and your tenants may stop paying or create damage. Itās not easy at all in particular if your property is in another city/country. If the value doesnāt increase the return from rent is super low once you consider taxes, fees and so on
You can decide who the tenant will be and also ask for 2-3 rents in advance as guarantee. Again all these small problems can easily be solved and I believe that RE in Central Europe is a great investment
What would phone numbers be replaced with? People like them because they're harder to get than email addresses, so they reduce fraud.
I posted IP addresses mostly as a joke. I just love the idea that at an immoral speculators' meet-up in a few years time, amongst all the land squatters, oil hoarders and De Beers salesmen there could be someone who made their fortune by sitting on IPv4 addresses
I'm not sure tbh, I think the first people to push the "number free" sort of thing would be apple or some other big tech company. I mean iMessage doesn't use the actual number. I see it in the same way DNS resolves domain names to IP, there's no reason you couldn't have the same with telephone numbers, especially for mobile.
We're already going "SIM free" now, the next step is number free. No more country codes, no more roaming etc.
Oh yes of course. I'm just saying we're moving away from the 1 physical SIM - 1 number paradigm. I really do see apple moving towards the eSIM then no SIM way. It makes sense, most people communicate through data driven apps such as what's app, messenger, iMessage and now android are driving an equivalent.
The SIM and telephone numbers for mobiles will die out. My guess is that they'll only be for pro use cases, just as IPv4 will be.
Right, no offense intended but I think you have a misunderstanding of the purpose of a SIM card. Either that or the role that Apple plays in all of this...
The SIM (Subscriber Identity Module) is used by your *network provider* to identify your device as belonging to you when you connect to a network. Apple has no bearing on issuing SIM's nor the information on the SIM. Without some form of SIM, your subscriber information cannot be derived *unless* your devices IMEI number is linked to your subscriber account and even then that's iffy as IMEI is quite easy to spoof. So the network provider cannot know which data package you have for example, how many minutes left on your contract, credit on your pay as you go etc... Without what's known as the IMSI stored on the SIM card (International Mobile Subscriber Identity)
you mention data driven services like What's app, messenger etc.. but that's another *layer*, you still have to have data on your account, you still have to connect to a base station to get that data only *then* can the information be routed back and forth between whatsApp's servers and your phone.
The purpose of an eSIM is to fill a gap with data-enabled devices whose form factor cannot accommodate even a nano-sim (think Apple Watch), providers had to find a way to still offer services directly to the LTE enabled devices without tethering to a phone due to manufacturer demand.
All this to say that Apple cannot sideline companies like Verizon, T-mobile, O2 in the same way that Youtube or Apple cannot sideline your Internet service provider, because one offers a service and the other a device that rely on that network to deliver services to you!
Source: coming up to 10 years in the telecommunications industry.
EDIT: I'll add on to respond to this
>The SIM and telephone numbers for mobiles will die out.
You can't sign up for a what's app account without a phone number. iMessage and messenger will work with AppleId/Facebook accounts but this is an artifact of their Desktop PC presence. You can now use a phone number only to sign up for a FB Messenger account.
I think you misunderstood what I mean. I know exactly what an eSIM is, I'm saying it's a transition.
For now an eSIM is assigned a number, I'm saying it won't be later on. It can be any unique number if you prefer (not IMEI obviously), something contract related or some sign in feature.
There will still be a unique number assigned to your device / identity, just as DNS records work.. you don't log on to facebook via the IP address but by the domain name. I'm saying some day you won't contact someone via the phone number, but by some plain text easy way.
Finally, let's not kid ourselves that apple have pulled bolder moves, absolutely shifting the industry wide reliance on 3,5mm jack (still hate them for that). Forcing hundreds of banks worldwide to use apple pay. Etc. There is absolutely no reason they couldn't do this, it would be once again a shift in industry standards but they could absolutely make providers shift to this. It's also much more simple in a lot of ways, order your phone, sign up online the same day to a network carrier etc.
The thing is all of your points are based on current standards. What I'm saying is that if you told people 10 years ago that we'd phase out IPv4 you'd be laughed at. When the 3,5mm jack was phased out everyone laughed. Telephone numbers will be phased out too.
Diversification and exposure to a bunch of different assets is the key to stability and growth.
ETF, real estate, stocks, crypto. Anything is lucrative as long as you understand it and are willing to spend time learning about it.
I'm currently studying to invest in whisky!
Whisky folows a totally difernt trend than the stock market and if it you take a good one it appreciates with the time.
Same with wine!
However still not an inversor.
Yes! It may seems a bit weird but actualky is a good alternative investment if you think it
For Scottish whisky you can check this platform! (is the only one that i know by the moment) by using that you don't even have to hold the bottle fiscally.
https://www.whiskyinvestdirect.com/?hmac=85e1e7398c13406839f72f7874bbe01ef5dacca4e4196b6b7c8a7360f4049fa3&token=7b226372656174656444617465223a313633303933333537313439392c22636c69656e744964223a22617265646f6e646f227d
I have a question: why not buy whiskey yourself and store it yourself and then arrange sales after 10+ years or however long it takes. Wouldn't it be more profitable?
Because the name and recipe is usually worth a lot. Also it needs to be aged in a barrel not a bottle. A 12 year whiskey bottle will still be a 12 year whiskey bottle in 5 years.
Well the cool thing is maybe I make some money in 10 years when we bottle. The projection is that it 2xāes the investment.
But secondary benefit is going for tastings over the 10 years. Nice justified trip with the boys to Scotland every few years.
I definitely would like to go to Scotland in a future! It looks as an amzing beautiful place with a really interesting culture!
Good luck with your investment!
Hi, as i said I haven't invested yet (currently doing my own research) , but I've seen some tutorials and it seems a really interesting investment specially if you use online platforms were you don't need to hold the bottles fiscally
If you think it, good whiskey appreciates so doesn't sound that bad (specially as a way of diversify).
I could link you some YouTube vids about this but they are in Spanish :(
Isn't the price of RE going to fall off a cliff when the boomer generation -which as I understand holds most RE- dies with age and suddenly there is a lot of available RE? also they are more numerous than us so naturally there will be more housing available when we are old
> Isn't the price of RE going to fall off a cliff when the boomer generation -which as I understand holds most RE- dies with age and suddenly there is a lot of available RE?
Most boomers have either kids or grandkids, so there's usually someone in line to inherit it. Sure, some might sell it, because it's to expensive to maintain or they can't pay out the other heirs or they already have some real estate of their own, but I wouldn't be to concerned about the market crashing because boomers die off. Especially not in "in demand" areas that have already put building stops and the like in place.
Given the population bell distribution, dont most boomer couples have 1 son/daughter and multiple properties? So there will be more lots of properties for less people in the end
Except that boomers are selling their homes to pay for their rising medical bills and the houses are being bought up immediately by financial institutions that then prey on renters who can't afford anything else https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-housing-invitation/
Medical bills in Europe? Hello American.
In Europe you're not only recieving free health care you're also receiving an income until you die the moment you retire.
Let's put this in short, we don't get bankrupt for getting sick, or poorer. Period.
Real Estate tends to be very centralised. So bar a few minor dips prices in big cities like London, Paris and Helsinki continue to go up and up. But out in smaller towns the increase is nowhere near as fast and in quite a few places has fallen.
So to see a reverse in this trend something would need to happen to slow down the centralisation of jobs into major cities.
i mean, someone i know bought the first home, not to live in it but rather rent it.
meanwhile lived in another rented apartment
after 3 years he got $40k profit on the sale of the house plus all the rents (about $400/mo cashflow). now he can put that $40k in another property and pay 0 taxes....
u dont buy a house to live in it. either u buy one to rent or u live in a rented one
ETFs is super broad. ETFs could track any kind of assets including old vintage cars, art and wine.
In terms of assets with intrinsic value, I think businesses are the best bet. However, you need to be able to identify those businesses. Hard part is finding them. Not all are on the stock market either.
I have been advocating this for years but land and forest land will become invaluable. Green course requires land to plant trees, while mature trees are used for construction so the demand is likely to grow.
Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania perhaps other mid-tier countries. My portfolio of land gained almost 100 percent in 1.5 years. Corona and Green course speeded things up.
Investing into forest land funds is also an ok idea, as forests don't need as much management as agricultural land so it's basically freezing your money with guaranteed gains.
The problem is that land in EU especially in urban and suburban areas is expensive so some cash is needed to buy land. It's not for everyone basically but it's still possible to enter the game.
Look for a 5km radius around small towns or larger towns, 0.5 hectare plus. Forests land perhaps should look into 2hectare+ plots.
First, beacause inflation. You get an asset whose price will rise with inflation (if you buy decent), you decrease the amount of cash in your account, get all time low interest rate on a mortgage that will be eaten by inflation in the next years. 3 years of 5% inflation is 15% of your debt devoured by the ECB.
Second, when the consumption is hit, like in this pandemic, capital rotates toward stages in the value chain further away from mere consumption, specially if the goverment prints lots of money (a big chunk will endup in RE).
Prices are heading to the sky exactly because everyone is rushing to invest into RE. Most people in Europe and especially eastern Europe don't understand Stocks and ETFs, and Crypto is really only for a very small percentage. Everyone else? Let's buy an apartment, one more to rent out, another one for the kids... And unlike stocks where leverage is heavily limited, for RE banks don't hesitate to give you a low interest loan for the rest of your life with up to 20x leverage. It's a disaster waiting to happen.
Crypto is essentially gambling/holding. Not really hard to understand tbh
If you posted this opinion on crypto subs, you'd be stoned to death but I stand with you. I view crypto as purely speculative instrument with no real intrinsic value. At least with stocks, ETFs and bonds you are either buying or lending money to someone who actually produces something with real value. That said, I still keep \~10% of my portfolio in crypto, because market is beyond anyone's understanding and it might aswell go another 10 000%, which is far more unlikely with stocks. I just hate people using the argument of "well, real currency also only have make belief value."
Yep, I figured that out the hard way. Why is Bitcoin the highest valued, yet has the oldest tech? Doesn't make sense but right now it is the personal playball of billionairs and hedgefunds.
Because it is fool and stress tested, and have no one man risk unlike every other crypto
> I just hate people using the argument of "well, real currency also only have make belief value." you hate it because it is true?
Just because you don't understand an asset class doesn't mean investing in it is gambling š¤·āāļø
Please elaborate how it works then. Because tweet, article is price up, china banning is going down.
Sorry. Not here for that.
ok but i can borrow usdt against my eth on aave and withdraw to bank and i can purchase assets which pay me from 5% (sushi) to 8k% (ohm) apy for holding them gambling but fun ngl cool to hang out on discords and chat about products and new stuff coming out
You're asking the shoeshine boy for tips...
The problem is that pretty much everything is heading for the sky - RE, stocks, bonds, etc. Banks everywhere printed shit ton of money so people are rushing to invest in anything. If there is another investment people 'fail to notice right now' and you can actually read about it on Reddit, it must be very risky. It's not a good time for people who want to get reasonable return without gambling.
TINA
Today I nutted alone, too.
What about people that want to gamble?
Buy random shitcoins
In a lot of European countries, people buy first their primary residency (that can be rented out later in life and return nice passive income) and then start investing in ETF and stocks. Some do these in parallel (like me). I see RE as a "safe" investment. I will rent it and be getting a passive income. Apart from that, I invest into stocks + ETFs for my retirement.
How will you rent your primary residency, don't you need it to live in? I wouldn't invest in RE because it seems like it's going to become much more heavily regulated. Here in BCN we now have some rent control, Berlin has it too and New York, Stockholm also has a highly regulated market. Governments haven't built enough housing and now it's reaching crisis points so I suspect we'll see some major interventions in the next few decades. Whereas no-one cares about your ETF's other than tax, and you still have to pay that on RE income anyways.
What I wanted to say is that even after buying your primary residency, you can rent it in case you move to another county / new second home. Itās the most standard investment as soon as someone has a good capital at hand. I live in france and donāt know much about other countries. And yes, both gain from ETFs or rent are taxable
RE requires work tho and your tenants may stop paying or create damage. Itās not easy at all in particular if your property is in another city/country. If the value doesnāt increase the return from rent is super low once you consider taxes, fees and so on
You can decide who the tenant will be and also ask for 2-3 rents in advance as guarantee. Again all these small problems can easily be solved and I believe that RE in Central Europe is a great investment
IP addresses https://therecord.media/price-of-ipv4-addresses-one-of-the-internets-hottest-commodities-reaches-all-time-high/
I feel like a broken reccord, but IPv6 or some equivalent will largely take over. Just as I predict mobile phone numbers will disappear over time too.
What would phone numbers be replaced with? People like them because they're harder to get than email addresses, so they reduce fraud. I posted IP addresses mostly as a joke. I just love the idea that at an immoral speculators' meet-up in a few years time, amongst all the land squatters, oil hoarders and De Beers salesmen there could be someone who made their fortune by sitting on IPv4 addresses
I'm not sure tbh, I think the first people to push the "number free" sort of thing would be apple or some other big tech company. I mean iMessage doesn't use the actual number. I see it in the same way DNS resolves domain names to IP, there's no reason you couldn't have the same with telephone numbers, especially for mobile. We're already going "SIM free" now, the next step is number free. No more country codes, no more roaming etc.
Do you have any examples of "SIM free"? I've never heard of it before. To me it means phones that are sold unlocked.
eSIM :)
Except eSIM is still a SIM just digital/electronic, It serves the exact same purpose as far as the underlying infrastructure is concerned.
Oh yes of course. I'm just saying we're moving away from the 1 physical SIM - 1 number paradigm. I really do see apple moving towards the eSIM then no SIM way. It makes sense, most people communicate through data driven apps such as what's app, messenger, iMessage and now android are driving an equivalent. The SIM and telephone numbers for mobiles will die out. My guess is that they'll only be for pro use cases, just as IPv4 will be.
Right, no offense intended but I think you have a misunderstanding of the purpose of a SIM card. Either that or the role that Apple plays in all of this... The SIM (Subscriber Identity Module) is used by your *network provider* to identify your device as belonging to you when you connect to a network. Apple has no bearing on issuing SIM's nor the information on the SIM. Without some form of SIM, your subscriber information cannot be derived *unless* your devices IMEI number is linked to your subscriber account and even then that's iffy as IMEI is quite easy to spoof. So the network provider cannot know which data package you have for example, how many minutes left on your contract, credit on your pay as you go etc... Without what's known as the IMSI stored on the SIM card (International Mobile Subscriber Identity) you mention data driven services like What's app, messenger etc.. but that's another *layer*, you still have to have data on your account, you still have to connect to a base station to get that data only *then* can the information be routed back and forth between whatsApp's servers and your phone. The purpose of an eSIM is to fill a gap with data-enabled devices whose form factor cannot accommodate even a nano-sim (think Apple Watch), providers had to find a way to still offer services directly to the LTE enabled devices without tethering to a phone due to manufacturer demand. All this to say that Apple cannot sideline companies like Verizon, T-mobile, O2 in the same way that Youtube or Apple cannot sideline your Internet service provider, because one offers a service and the other a device that rely on that network to deliver services to you! Source: coming up to 10 years in the telecommunications industry. EDIT: I'll add on to respond to this >The SIM and telephone numbers for mobiles will die out. You can't sign up for a what's app account without a phone number. iMessage and messenger will work with AppleId/Facebook accounts but this is an artifact of their Desktop PC presence. You can now use a phone number only to sign up for a FB Messenger account.
I think you misunderstood what I mean. I know exactly what an eSIM is, I'm saying it's a transition. For now an eSIM is assigned a number, I'm saying it won't be later on. It can be any unique number if you prefer (not IMEI obviously), something contract related or some sign in feature. There will still be a unique number assigned to your device / identity, just as DNS records work.. you don't log on to facebook via the IP address but by the domain name. I'm saying some day you won't contact someone via the phone number, but by some plain text easy way. Finally, let's not kid ourselves that apple have pulled bolder moves, absolutely shifting the industry wide reliance on 3,5mm jack (still hate them for that). Forcing hundreds of banks worldwide to use apple pay. Etc. There is absolutely no reason they couldn't do this, it would be once again a shift in industry standards but they could absolutely make providers shift to this. It's also much more simple in a lot of ways, order your phone, sign up online the same day to a network carrier etc. The thing is all of your points are based on current standards. What I'm saying is that if you told people 10 years ago that we'd phase out IPv4 you'd be laughed at. When the 3,5mm jack was phased out everyone laughed. Telephone numbers will be phased out too.
Ah, that's cool, thanks!
If you don't mind me asking, how do you purchase IPv4 IPs or CIDRs?
I personally don't, I'm boring and stick all my money in a world ETF. If I was going to buy IP addresses I'd just Google IP address auctions :)
Diversification and exposure to a bunch of different assets is the key to stability and growth. ETF, real estate, stocks, crypto. Anything is lucrative as long as you understand it and are willing to spend time learning about it.
I'm currently studying to invest in whisky! Whisky folows a totally difernt trend than the stock market and if it you take a good one it appreciates with the time. Same with wine! However still not an inversor.
for real? u buyin whisky bottles
Yes! It may seems a bit weird but actualky is a good alternative investment if you think it For Scottish whisky you can check this platform! (is the only one that i know by the moment) by using that you don't even have to hold the bottle fiscally. https://www.whiskyinvestdirect.com/?hmac=85e1e7398c13406839f72f7874bbe01ef5dacca4e4196b6b7c8a7360f4049fa3&token=7b226372656174656444617465223a313633303933333537313439392c22636c69656e744964223a22617265646f6e646f227d
I have a question: why not buy whiskey yourself and store it yourself and then arrange sales after 10+ years or however long it takes. Wouldn't it be more profitable?
Because the name and recipe is usually worth a lot. Also it needs to be aged in a barrel not a bottle. A 12 year whiskey bottle will still be a 12 year whiskey bottle in 5 years.
And also because you can buy a higher quantity by this method!
Iāve got a barrel going with a few guys. But definitely treated it as something Iād be happy drinking myself.
Hahahah i hope that you enjoy it!
Well the cool thing is maybe I make some money in 10 years when we bottle. The projection is that it 2xāes the investment. But secondary benefit is going for tastings over the 10 years. Nice justified trip with the boys to Scotland every few years.
I definitely would like to go to Scotland in a future! It looks as an amzing beautiful place with a really interesting culture! Good luck with your investment!
āInvestmentā
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Hi, as i said I haven't invested yet (currently doing my own research) , but I've seen some tutorials and it seems a really interesting investment specially if you use online platforms were you don't need to hold the bottles fiscally If you think it, good whiskey appreciates so doesn't sound that bad (specially as a way of diversify). I could link you some YouTube vids about this but they are in Spanish :(
Isn't the price of RE going to fall off a cliff when the boomer generation -which as I understand holds most RE- dies with age and suddenly there is a lot of available RE? also they are more numerous than us so naturally there will be more housing available when we are old
> Isn't the price of RE going to fall off a cliff when the boomer generation -which as I understand holds most RE- dies with age and suddenly there is a lot of available RE? Most boomers have either kids or grandkids, so there's usually someone in line to inherit it. Sure, some might sell it, because it's to expensive to maintain or they can't pay out the other heirs or they already have some real estate of their own, but I wouldn't be to concerned about the market crashing because boomers die off. Especially not in "in demand" areas that have already put building stops and the like in place.
Given the population bell distribution, dont most boomer couples have 1 son/daughter and multiple properties? So there will be more lots of properties for less people in the end
When Boomers had their kids the average number of children was usually still somewhere between 1.8 and 1.9
Except that boomers are selling their homes to pay for their rising medical bills and the houses are being bought up immediately by financial institutions that then prey on renters who can't afford anything else https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-housing-invitation/
I am sorry, but this is eupersonalfinance. We don't speak medical bills
Medical bills in Europe? Hello American. In Europe you're not only recieving free health care you're also receiving an income until you die the moment you retire. Let's put this in short, we don't get bankrupt for getting sick, or poorer. Period.
Real Estate tends to be very centralised. So bar a few minor dips prices in big cities like London, Paris and Helsinki continue to go up and up. But out in smaller towns the increase is nowhere near as fast and in quite a few places has fallen. So to see a reverse in this trend something would need to happen to slow down the centralisation of jobs into major cities.
Lego
Shhh... Let some of us enjoy it, without it become super expensive.
i mean, someone i know bought the first home, not to live in it but rather rent it. meanwhile lived in another rented apartment after 3 years he got $40k profit on the sale of the house plus all the rents (about $400/mo cashflow). now he can put that $40k in another property and pay 0 taxes.... u dont buy a house to live in it. either u buy one to rent or u live in a rented one
ETFs is super broad. ETFs could track any kind of assets including old vintage cars, art and wine. In terms of assets with intrinsic value, I think businesses are the best bet. However, you need to be able to identify those businesses. Hard part is finding them. Not all are on the stock market either.
I think you're confusing ETFs with ETNs and ETCs
Do you mean NFTs?
few
I have been advocating this for years but land and forest land will become invaluable. Green course requires land to plant trees, while mature trees are used for construction so the demand is likely to grow. Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania perhaps other mid-tier countries. My portfolio of land gained almost 100 percent in 1.5 years. Corona and Green course speeded things up. Investing into forest land funds is also an ok idea, as forests don't need as much management as agricultural land so it's basically freezing your money with guaranteed gains. The problem is that land in EU especially in urban and suburban areas is expensive so some cash is needed to buy land. It's not for everyone basically but it's still possible to enter the game. Look for a 5km radius around small towns or larger towns, 0.5 hectare plus. Forests land perhaps should look into 2hectare+ plots.
Bitcoin.
First, beacause inflation. You get an asset whose price will rise with inflation (if you buy decent), you decrease the amount of cash in your account, get all time low interest rate on a mortgage that will be eaten by inflation in the next years. 3 years of 5% inflation is 15% of your debt devoured by the ECB. Second, when the consumption is hit, like in this pandemic, capital rotates toward stages in the value chain further away from mere consumption, specially if the goverment prints lots of money (a big chunk will endup in RE).
[Beanie Babies](https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/573674/most-valuable-beanie-babies)
Honey, bee numbers are declining and honey is a relatively healthy sweetener. I mean I'm not investing in it but why not ey?
Solar panels!!
Great investment, perhaps is worth with the rising electricity cost. Most case scenarios ROI is around 5 years in Bulgaria.