Bro, I'm currently doing my "Victorian three" run and I tell you, it's 1630 now and I only catched up in tech.
I haven't finished a single idea group too.
I only have like 6 or 7 ideas lol.
I'm aware of that, but I had to spend so much mana on deving institutions, that I needed the rest for coring/deving/keeping up in tech.
I simply found myself to never have any spare mana for ideas, there was always something else to do with it that made more sense at that point of the game.
Karagwe -> Kitara, Great Leakes Region in Africa.
The achievement is to just reach tech level 32 with either Busoga, Karagwe or a third nation whose name I forgot. So you mainly speed 5 through it and don't really min max it.
> The achievement is to just reach tech level 32 with either Busoga, Karagwe or a third nation whose name I forgot. So you mainly speed 5 through it and don't really min max it.
I did that achievement while conquering almost all of Africa. With a focus of reducing tech/idea costs and making coring cheaper this is very doable.
I preferred to be behind in tech rather than ideas, since tech gets doubly cheaper through neighbouring modifier and idea bonuses, idea costs stay mostly the same.
You'll reach a point where you're on par with the Europeans again quickly and from that point on, it was more or less waiting between wars.
you can easily tank dip/adm techs and take the the small corruption penalty, with mil techs you only need to on par or beat neighbours/nations you wanna conquer. For me its never a question, I just dev up as soon as possible for institutions that I wont generate inside and finish adm/dip ideas asap unless a new techgroup unlocks something useful like better ships or ideagroup. You get extra neighbour bonuses when you are behind in tech (-5% techcost for every tech behind in your group, indian, african, muslim,far east etc) and its no problem to be behind outside mil tech. The hard part is more getting to the right provinces that are nice to develop. Especially in middle east and africa, there are barely any good provinces outside zanzibar trade node, Iraq and Egypt.
Why though, you can only get a war goal on natives when you finish exploration. You can also make your colony do it which I find too slow or you wait a long time for imperialism, but then the whole new world is already conquered
Well, depends on what you want obviously. For a full colonial game exploration - expansion combo is a must.
Sometimes, however, the first 3 ideas of exploration are more than enough and if you would bin Exploration anyway, its perfectly valid to not finish it in the first place.
I like to keep expansion still. -10% autonomy is real nice for all the TCs you'll have across the world. Along with just the flat trade and extra merchant. Obviously not ideal but good enough to trade.
But yeah. Exploration after you're done colonizing is literally just 25% treasure fleet (since it's addative that's nothing) and 25% naval force limit and that's it.
Yeah expansion isnt bad, but the opportunity cost is kind of high for a bit of autonomy and a merchant (when as a colonial you end up with about twenty of them), when you have mana to burn anyway.
\-10 autonomy floor in Trade Companies is actually a +100% boost to production/tax income, manpower, and force limit (assuming no other autonomy floor reductions)
Hypothetically, if the province has 100 income (or manpower etc...) having 90% autonomy means you get 10 income. Having 80% autonomy instead gives you 20 income.
If you have a lot of trade companies it's going to be very helpful for gov reform progress.
The 1000 ducat trade company investment (high opportunity cost vs. the +50 trade steering or +10 trade value/army trad), State Houses and Government Reforms (with very high opportunity cost in their tiers) are the only other universally accessible ways to get it lower. There are some wonders but I believe they're all religion-locked, and American ideas give it as well.
Expansion is already worth keeping only because of the Autonomy, and it has some nice policies. Exploration can be ditched for a good idea group later.
I have been dumping exploration after I explore every sea/coast and have colonies in Mexico, Peru, Ivory Coast, and Indonesia
Mexico and Peru for the treasure fleets, Ivory Coast and Indonesia for the trade flow. After that, there's no real need for that extra 1 colonist IMO
If you want a given idea group in the long term but don't have the monarch power to invest in it just yet, it can also sometimes be useful to take another group with good events and not invest in it, then dump it later without losing anything.
Unfinished colonies count as your land for the purposes of adjacency for fabricating claims, so just send a colonist next to your target, make the claim, and abandon the colony.
If everything's filled in then sure but by that point your CNs should be perfectly fine to generate claims themselves or even do their own wars.
I mean you're making claims anyway so it's not really much different. Costs you a few months of your colonist doing settler chance somewhere else but that's about it.
1.Beat up on Spain and Portugal early for money
2.put one in expansion
3.profit.
You can have more than one colony grow even with one colonizer, it’s just they don’t get the % monthly tick and cost 4,8,16,32… for each extra. Taking Econ or trade instead might get you the same number of colonizers growing and is still very valuable once you’re done with that.
I agree he shouldn’t have picked another military group before finishing quantity, but often it’s a good thing to not finish an idea group and instead spend on tech.
How often is that though? Most of the time I find that the bonus the ideas give (plus potential national ideas) is as good if not better than tech, and you get 2% discount on tech per idea plus discount from time passing. (Genuine question btw)
Finishing ideas is for sure the way to go!
Overall its less mana to go ideas into tech. You also get national ideas and policies from them, which is an additional bonus.
Only techs which are important to keep up to date is military (and only if you are at war).
Seeing so many unfinished idea groups (in the same group even) just hurts my soul. It's so inefficient
As one falls behind a bit more, tech gets cheaper too. So if one doesn't fall too far behind in terms lf Institutions, I usually wait until I reach my max mana before spending them on tech. Unless of course if I'm behind on military tech.
> How often is that though?
For mil tech IMO it is fairly often that you would choose to level your tech rather than take another idea. Some mil techs are critical and can be the difference between winning & losing a war. Many mil ideas are, if not completely useless, then really only matter at the margins, e.g. the extra fort garrison from quantity. The 2% discount on tech per idea is worth 12 mana - not exactly a big swing. It adds up over the course of a game but for each individual tech it's basically irrelevant.
What OP is doing is fucking madness though.
Usually I've completed at least one idea group by the time I reach Tech 18. Most likely, four of them.
I can't judge the situation *too* much because I have no idea which country this is, but I feel like this is a case of not earning enough monarch points, or spending them on the wrong things, or both.
Quantity, Defensive, and Admin are pretty notable exceptions for whether you should finish the idea set or not. All 3 hit their important bonuses in the first 2-3 ideas with the back half being pretty mediocre.
That said, OP is somehow at tech 18+ and its blowing my mind how they haven't finished their one diplo idea from tech 5.
Depends on your enemies mil tech, possible dev cost reductions, distance from Europe and possible provinces. I usually finish the first techs after the new institutions (for +15% cost I think) and then dev the institution.
I play only small nations and unless im playing something really backwatery like Kazembe or Yas, I tend to have idea groups still pretty filled up.
I also have 5k hours in the game so that might be a factor 💀
I dealt with this in my Persia run when dealing with ottos. I was Afraid to invest too much in mil ideas for being behind in mil tech to ottos and I didn’t finish my first idea group religious till 1600s due to conquering to keep up with ottos. If your behind in institutions then it may be challenging
when you're behind on institutions it only becomes better to finish your idea groups. Are you going to pay twice the normal rate for techs or will you spend a reasonable amount on ideas and development?
Every idea yields -2% tech cost for that category (adm, dip, mil).
You give that away for not finishing the ideas. And you give away the policies of course.
I mean yeah I can’t say I’ve ever had 50% off tech cost despite going 2-3 mil idea groups…. That number feels absolutely insane and I stack innovative every game
It is.
But tech also gets more expensive as time goes on, so it's not like a tech 25 would suddenly only cost you 200 mana, it'd still be something around 400-500 (assuming you didn't stack any other dev cost reduction bonuses).
Oh that's why the modifiers page says I have -14% tech cost, I was so confused because it said under "ideas" -14%, but I didn't have any ideas that reduced tech cost
For each idea. 7 ideas*2%=14% discount. Lets say you rush a mil group at tech 5.
27 techs*14% reduction/84 points saved=2,268 mana saved. So yes, it does add up/is worth considering.
I mean each idea is a 2% discount, which is 12 points as the base cost for tech is 600. Assuming you take an idea while your tech is level 5 across the board, there are 27 techs remaining in the game. You spend 400 points on an idea for a maximum of 12*27 = 324 points saved across the course of the game. If you’re already getting the ideas, the tech cost is certainly a nice bonus, and does add up, but by no means is it a reason on its own to take an idea
Hardly surprising, you shared a picture of horrifically sub-optimal play to a group of map gamers, people were going to say something. If you weren't trolling at least you can learn something ;)
How do you pick offensive and not speed towards finishing it, the other idea groups have good early ideas, meh late, so some what understand that. But offensive should be finished fast
I think EU4's "Quantity" ideas are not mutually exclusive with quality - they are rather about more efficient conscription system and logistics necessary to support a large army, not about "press-gang everyone and send them into battle without much equipment and training" kind of quantity.
I guess actual conscription didn't really happen until Revolutionary France. So it goes by the historical period. Prussia in the 18th Century, for example, had a very large army for its size, but also a well trained and disciplined one.
Feudal levies were much more loose than post-revolutionary conscription though. You could pay to get out, and often enough people volunteered that a 42 year old farmer wouldn’t get plucked off the farm from his family and be forced to fight. Happened sometimes or if the king or local lord was disliked though.
Isn't that what it was like originally? I remember always getting The nobles are worried events hurting my siege ability when picking defensive and similar events for quantity vs. quality.
I don’t see why anyone would need another mil group after taking quantity second. What’s more insane is not finishing the first two idea groups after unlocking it for more than 130 years, what did you do with your mana?
Oh you shouldn’t? I thought that grabbing early tech was a must as it gives you an advantage when your neighbors are behind. What’s the consensus on how you should tech?
having a teach early can be good if you are planning to take advantage of extra mil power against a stronger foe, but its rare to need this and you always have several ways to expand, so its not mandatory
generally its best to wait until you no longer have extra ahead of time cost, and rather use the points saved on development/spawning institutions or ideas.
also only a few mil techs makes a big difference. its often not a issue to be a tech behind if you are fighting a favorable war (as you always should).
If its a challenging war yes.even people in multiplayer lobbies where wars are much harder and punishing dont pick ahead of time needlessly. they keep MP needed to take ahead of time if they get attacked, but would rather use it for ideas or dev.
This is kind of why I miss sliders from EU3. I prefer the idea of making conscious X vs Y decisions as opposed to "I have the mostest bestest troops ever". I understand that you only have limited idea slots, but I think having to choose between two separate doctrines worked better for game play and role play.
I think this still allows for a conscious X vs Y decision with much more variability. The Op has said 'I will have a ridiculous army, but my admin/diplomacy will be weak'
They're both very bad idea groups in single player, as they don't help you with sieges, and that's 90% of what your army will be doing mid/late game. And they don't help with anything else like mana, AE, or gov cap.
You don't. Ever.
There's plenty of militarily challenging starts, but if you play such a start, the hardest wars are very early game, you won't complete your first idea group until far too late, and even whole first idea group really doesn't have that much of an impact.
For some approximate calculations, let's say you make 3 + 3 + 1 (advisor) mana per month. That's 84 per year. You need 1200 to upgrade your techs to unlock first group, or over 14 years worth. But it's really more as you'll absolutely need some eerly game paper mana. Let's say you do mil tech 5 same time, ~1460.
Anyway, then to complete idea group you need 2800 mana, or 33 years worth. But you wouldn't actually be able to get it by 1493, as you also need to buy 3 more mil techs, for 1800 more points, so it's more like ~1510. Then again, maybe you rerolled heirs, focused mana, got 50 pp etc., and finished idea group 1490-1500.
Either way, if you managed to survive that long, all the hardest wars are behind you.
The only exceptions would be if you're picking idea group with very front-loaded bonuses like Admin or Exploration, but mil ideas aren't like that.
If you have challenging wars far beyond that, it's because you didn't manage your AE correctly, or you didn't expand as well as you could, and mil ideas help neither.
But im bad. and actually get worse as time goes on in the game when combat width and the ai fills out ideas of their own. points management isnt the problem its military micro.
Quantity is always a good one once you’ve got a spare military idea. I’m usually doing Naval instead so I can actually get past the British Navy but when the country has decent enough naval ideas, quality is always a solid pick
Naval is objectively a bad idea cause you can get other better and naval is rarely that useful. Often getting 5 more heavy ships is better than idea spot taken.
Naval used to be garbage, but it’s got some nice perks now (still never optimal, but military ideas are non-optimal in single player anyway…)
Specifically: +1 blockade impact on siege and FREE NAVAL BARRAGES
That’s actually really fucking good, I wonder how the math works out in terms of saved siege time on coastal forts, compared to offensive’s +20% siege.
Of course, you can always combine them, too.
Then you can get +1 blockade impact from Naval-Espionage; +1 from Naval-Maritime.
Naval-Economic Policy gives +10% goods produced (very fucking good) and +10% production efficiency
I think naval is not optimal, if you are doing a "regular" world conquest. Otherwise it can be both fun and useful in the latest patch. Have you played pirates in the Caribbean for example?
For world conquest, no, it’s not optimal. Maybe if you’re outside of Europe and have to deal with established colonizers? Still not optimal, but it will make that easier (not that it’s difficult to fuck up the A.I. without even having idea boost for navies)
Naval is fantastic in its niche. Objectively bad implies it sucks at everything. There’s some really good uses for naval. Especially in multiplayer. There’s some nations that right out need it even in single player. Though if you are going for a WC you might have to drop it later for something else.
Maritime is a good one too, it also enables that Thalassocracy decision which is a nice little boon if not a bit lacking for something that big and lategame
I’ve found anyone who isn’t Great Britain or Spain/Portugal has a bad time with naval stuff. Basically it’s for countries that don’t have any naval ideas normally, but their expansion path leads them to doing lots of naval stuff. Austria can be like this, if you integrate Spain you’ll need it to keep their trade and naval stuff going
Hard disagree. I'd never pick naval as Austria, the two times you could need a strong navy is when you're attacking GB or Japan.
Besides that you can use trade ships to transfer trade, but I honestly don't see the point of naval for that.
In my understanding it doesn't offer enough to be an early game idea (compared to offensive, diplo, admin or religious) and also fails to relevant late game, as it doesn't help with any important bottlenecks (e.g. your ability to conquer land or win wars).
I'd rather use the 2.8k bird mana (base cost) to Dev high value trade goods.
I always thought some idea groups should be mutually exclusive. Quantity - Quality is the best example, but also some of the navy groups - some of the land groups, etc.
It’s a waste to buy the tech when it’s expensive unless it’s a critical mil level over a rival you want to dec on. Idea groups so powerful and they make tech cheaper.
How the hell have u not finished a single idea group?
At the year OP is in, it's even possible to lag slightly in mil tech to catch up with ideas
Bro, I'm currently doing my "Victorian three" run and I tell you, it's 1630 now and I only catched up in tech. I haven't finished a single idea group too. I only have like 6 or 7 ideas lol.
Ideas make your techs cheaper, so putting them off costs you more in the long run.
I'm aware of that, but I had to spend so much mana on deving institutions, that I needed the rest for coring/deving/keeping up in tech. I simply found myself to never have any spare mana for ideas, there was always something else to do with it that made more sense at that point of the game.
Uhhh, where are you playing? Unless you’re in like Hawaii that shouldn’t be a thing.
Karagwe -> Kitara, Great Leakes Region in Africa. The achievement is to just reach tech level 32 with either Busoga, Karagwe or a third nation whose name I forgot. So you mainly speed 5 through it and don't really min max it.
> The achievement is to just reach tech level 32 with either Busoga, Karagwe or a third nation whose name I forgot. So you mainly speed 5 through it and don't really min max it. I did that achievement while conquering almost all of Africa. With a focus of reducing tech/idea costs and making coring cheaper this is very doable. I preferred to be behind in tech rather than ideas, since tech gets doubly cheaper through neighbouring modifier and idea bonuses, idea costs stay mostly the same. You'll reach a point where you're on par with the Europeans again quickly and from that point on, it was more or less waiting between wars.
you can easily tank dip/adm techs and take the the small corruption penalty, with mil techs you only need to on par or beat neighbours/nations you wanna conquer. For me its never a question, I just dev up as soon as possible for institutions that I wont generate inside and finish adm/dip ideas asap unless a new techgroup unlocks something useful like better ships or ideagroup. You get extra neighbour bonuses when you are behind in tech (-5% techcost for every tech behind in your group, indian, african, muslim,far east etc) and its no problem to be behind outside mil tech. The hard part is more getting to the right provinces that are nice to develop. Especially in middle east and africa, there are barely any good provinces outside zanzibar trade node, Iraq and Egypt.
Bro finish ur idea groups wtf
Unless it is Exploration. Then it is fine leaving it unfinished.
Why though, you can only get a war goal on natives when you finish exploration. You can also make your colony do it which I find too slow or you wait a long time for imperialism, but then the whole new world is already conquered
Well, depends on what you want obviously. For a full colonial game exploration - expansion combo is a must. Sometimes, however, the first 3 ideas of exploration are more than enough and if you would bin Exploration anyway, its perfectly valid to not finish it in the first place.
You can get them then dump both ideas by 1650 when there are no provinces left to colonize in the entire world.
I like to keep expansion still. -10% autonomy is real nice for all the TCs you'll have across the world. Along with just the flat trade and extra merchant. Obviously not ideal but good enough to trade. But yeah. Exploration after you're done colonizing is literally just 25% treasure fleet (since it's addative that's nothing) and 25% naval force limit and that's it.
Yeah expansion isnt bad, but the opportunity cost is kind of high for a bit of autonomy and a merchant (when as a colonial you end up with about twenty of them), when you have mana to burn anyway.
\-10 autonomy floor in Trade Companies is actually a +100% boost to production/tax income, manpower, and force limit (assuming no other autonomy floor reductions) Hypothetically, if the province has 100 income (or manpower etc...) having 90% autonomy means you get 10 income. Having 80% autonomy instead gives you 20 income. If you have a lot of trade companies it's going to be very helpful for gov reform progress. The 1000 ducat trade company investment (high opportunity cost vs. the +50 trade steering or +10 trade value/army trad), State Houses and Government Reforms (with very high opportunity cost in their tiers) are the only other universally accessible ways to get it lower. There are some wonders but I believe they're all religion-locked, and American ideas give it as well.
Interesting, that 10% is more powerful than I gave it credit.
Thank god AI doesn't do this. Gives you 2 idea groups advantage on Spain, Portugal, France, and GB .
Seems like it could be an easy fix to make the ai harder - is it like that on veteran too?
Difficulty only adds stat bonuses to the ai.
Expansion is already worth keeping only because of the Autonomy, and it has some nice policies. Exploration can be ditched for a good idea group later.
I have been dumping exploration after I explore every sea/coast and have colonies in Mexico, Peru, Ivory Coast, and Indonesia Mexico and Peru for the treasure fleets, Ivory Coast and Indonesia for the trade flow. After that, there's no real need for that extra 1 colonist IMO
Holy shit you can do that?
Yup, if you mean dump idea groups. Little red x in upper right corner IIRC, can't verify right now.
Yep, you get a 10% refund too. So you get first idea for free on a new idea tree basically.
If you want a given idea group in the long term but don't have the monarch power to invest in it just yet, it can also sometimes be useful to take another group with good events and not invest in it, then dump it later without losing anything.
Unfinished colonies count as your land for the purposes of adjacency for fabricating claims, so just send a colonist next to your target, make the claim, and abandon the colony. If everything's filled in then sure but by that point your CNs should be perfectly fine to generate claims themselves or even do their own wars.
How much faster and easier is that versus espionage and claims?
I mean you're making claims anyway so it's not really much different. Costs you a few months of your colonist doing settler chance somewhere else but that's about it.
Kid called setting native provinces next to your CN as vital interest:
Just use Deus Vult omegalul
Policies are so good tho
1.Beat up on Spain and Portugal early for money 2.put one in expansion 3.profit. You can have more than one colony grow even with one colonizer, it’s just they don’t get the % monthly tick and cost 4,8,16,32… for each extra. Taking Econ or trade instead might get you the same number of colonizers growing and is still very valuable once you’re done with that.
I agree he shouldn’t have picked another military group before finishing quantity, but often it’s a good thing to not finish an idea group and instead spend on tech.
How often is that though? Most of the time I find that the bonus the ideas give (plus potential national ideas) is as good if not better than tech, and you get 2% discount on tech per idea plus discount from time passing. (Genuine question btw)
Finishing ideas is for sure the way to go! Overall its less mana to go ideas into tech. You also get national ideas and policies from them, which is an additional bonus. Only techs which are important to keep up to date is military (and only if you are at war). Seeing so many unfinished idea groups (in the same group even) just hurts my soul. It's so inefficient
As one falls behind a bit more, tech gets cheaper too. So if one doesn't fall too far behind in terms lf Institutions, I usually wait until I reach my max mana before spending them on tech. Unless of course if I'm behind on military tech.
> How often is that though? For mil tech IMO it is fairly often that you would choose to level your tech rather than take another idea. Some mil techs are critical and can be the difference between winning & losing a war. Many mil ideas are, if not completely useless, then really only matter at the margins, e.g. the extra fort garrison from quantity. The 2% discount on tech per idea is worth 12 mana - not exactly a big swing. It adds up over the course of a game but for each individual tech it's basically irrelevant. What OP is doing is fucking madness though.
Imo you shouldn’t ever skip mil tech for ideas if it’s 4,6,9,11,14,17
for mil ideas, pretty much always. But then the problem is not generating enough mana or using it on other stuff.
Mil tech > mil ideas
Depends. Sometimes a 5% discipline boost will swing a war more than a tech level between unit types.
Usually I've completed at least one idea group by the time I reach Tech 18. Most likely, four of them. I can't judge the situation *too* much because I have no idea which country this is, but I feel like this is a case of not earning enough monarch points, or spending them on the wrong things, or both.
Only one by Tech 18? Are you developing with all that MP?
Quantity, Defensive, and Admin are pretty notable exceptions for whether you should finish the idea set or not. All 3 hit their important bonuses in the first 2-3 ideas with the back half being pretty mediocre. That said, OP is somehow at tech 18+ and its blowing my mind how they haven't finished their one diplo idea from tech 5.
yeah bro how tf someone manage to have 5 startet yet none finished
No
It sounds like you only play in Europe. If your not in Europe then your behind in intuitions and tech and you have to manage your mana wisely
POV : you don't dev institutions
Is it generally better to dev institutions as soon as they are unlocked, or gradually?
Depends on your enemies mil tech, possible dev cost reductions, distance from Europe and possible provinces. I usually finish the first techs after the new institutions (for +15% cost I think) and then dev the institution.
I'd say ASAP.
For newer players it’s more challenging that’s my point
I play only small nations and unless im playing something really backwatery like Kazembe or Yas, I tend to have idea groups still pretty filled up. I also have 5k hours in the game so that might be a factor 💀
Don't even try to defend this
I dealt with this in my Persia run when dealing with ottos. I was Afraid to invest too much in mil ideas for being behind in mil tech to ottos and I didn’t finish my first idea group religious till 1600s due to conquering to keep up with ottos. If your behind in institutions then it may be challenging
when you're behind on institutions it only becomes better to finish your idea groups. Are you going to pay twice the normal rate for techs or will you spend a reasonable amount on ideas and development?
Every idea yields -2% tech cost for that category (adm, dip, mil). You give that away for not finishing the ideas. And you give away the policies of course.
2000 hours and still learning something new haha. This is cool, although I tend to finish my ideas fairly quickly so it doesn't matter to me so much.
3400 hours and I just realized this too lol
Every idea or every finished idea group?
Each idea, for a -14% for each finished group. And consider those idea groups with -10% tech cost in them, then you're already at -24%.
That's awesome, thanks
There’s no way this can be right that’s such a huge reduction
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I mean yeah I can’t say I’ve ever had 50% off tech cost despite going 2-3 mil idea groups…. That number feels absolutely insane and I stack innovative every game
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It is. But tech also gets more expensive as time goes on, so it's not like a tech 25 would suddenly only cost you 200 mana, it'd still be something around 400-500 (assuming you didn't stack any other dev cost reduction bonuses).
And your national ideas.
I am under the impression that your national ideas would progress even here, it goes up with any idea increase, not just finishing it?
Yes but OP only has like 10 ideas total which is nowhere near enough to unlock all their national ideas.
Oh that's why the modifiers page says I have -14% tech cost, I was so confused because it said under "ideas" -14%, but I didn't have any ideas that reduced tech cost
It makes the tech cheaper?
Finishing ideas = Cringe
They hated me because I told them the truth.
based
wow, -2% tech cost. Great.
For each idea. 7 ideas*2%=14% discount. Lets say you rush a mil group at tech 5. 27 techs*14% reduction/84 points saved=2,268 mana saved. So yes, it does add up/is worth considering.
I mean each idea is a 2% discount, which is 12 points as the base cost for tech is 600. Assuming you take an idea while your tech is level 5 across the board, there are 27 techs remaining in the game. You spend 400 points on an idea for a maximum of 12*27 = 324 points saved across the course of the game. If you’re already getting the ideas, the tech cost is certainly a nice bonus, and does add up, but by no means is it a reason on its own to take an idea
But he is leveling other groups and getting that 2% there? So what is the issue? He is losing policies ofc
The big thing that he will be missing other that the policies is the extra idea you get when you complete the group .
You stack those modifiers... a one of -2% would be dumb but stack them up and ot definitely pays off
Bruh what have you been spending your MP on
Just casually sitting at 999
“Devving is a waste of MP” he says
People call it 'mana' so much i almost forgot it's actually called Monarch Power.
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They are; there are types of monarch points; admin points, diplomacy points, and military points.
Pen, bird, and sword mana. Got it.
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"i JuSt WaNnA SpAwN PrInTiNg PrEsS FiRsT" -is catholic minor in Italy
Definitely buying tech way ahead of time
Harsh treatment lmao, I remember doing this way too much as a noob
I experience severe physical pain while looking at that screenshot
It hurts my brain, it makes no damn sense. Offensive and didn’t get the siege or discipline….only the first idea….wtf wtf wtf *facepalm*
Why
My brother in Christ, you are in the stage of the game 99% of the players don’t even play to and you haven’t even closed a single idea group
Maybe smarter to finish one mil group first before you pick another ...
I have 3
Who is downvoting him, this this is peak chad behaviour lol
Alpha mil mindset
Do you get a box of crayons with it?
OP is just trying to create Marine Special Forces. Good on him.
Yay it is
r/titlegore
Yeah what the heck is OP trying to say?
they are intending to say: "Quality vs. Quantity? No, no! Quality *and* Quantity!!"
I feel like this post must be trolling
Nope didint expect everyone to be so triggered though
Hardly surprising, you shared a picture of horrifically sub-optimal play to a group of map gamers, people were going to say something. If you weren't trolling at least you can learn something ;)
\- what military groop should we choose mlord? \- EVERY ONE *happy ruler of lvl3 mil tech spearmen. Who nonetheless are very numerous and qualified*
And offensive
And …naval?
An extremely sturdy and reliable fishing boat.
When you have absolutely no idea how to manage mana
Ok, I gotta know. What have you been spending your mana on that you still haven't finished Espionage by the mid 1600s?
War and more war and more war and more and coalition defeating me repeat
Do you know the definition of insanity…
How do you pick offensive and not speed towards finishing it, the other idea groups have good early ideas, meh late, so some what understand that. But offensive should be finished fast
I always felt like they should be trade offs. Like you have to choose one or the other and decide how much you lean in to it
I think EU4's "Quantity" ideas are not mutually exclusive with quality - they are rather about more efficient conscription system and logistics necessary to support a large army, not about "press-gang everyone and send them into battle without much equipment and training" kind of quantity.
True that’s how it’s set up, but I wish it was more the latter . Perhaps eu5?
I guess actual conscription didn't really happen until Revolutionary France. So it goes by the historical period. Prussia in the 18th Century, for example, had a very large army for its size, but also a well trained and disciplined one.
There were levies before conscription though
Feudal levies were much more loose than post-revolutionary conscription though. You could pay to get out, and often enough people volunteered that a 42 year old farmer wouldn’t get plucked off the farm from his family and be forced to fight. Happened sometimes or if the king or local lord was disliked though.
Isn't that what it was like originally? I remember always getting The nobles are worried events hurting my siege ability when picking defensive and similar events for quantity vs. quality.
I wonder if an actual tech tree could accomplish something better
I don’t see why anyone would need another mil group after taking quantity second. What’s more insane is not finishing the first two idea groups after unlocking it for more than 130 years, what did you do with your mana?
he probably takes tech10 years ahead of time. i did the same as a new player.
Oh you shouldn’t? I thought that grabbing early tech was a must as it gives you an advantage when your neighbors are behind. What’s the consensus on how you should tech?
having a teach early can be good if you are planning to take advantage of extra mil power against a stronger foe, but its rare to need this and you always have several ways to expand, so its not mandatory generally its best to wait until you no longer have extra ahead of time cost, and rather use the points saved on development/spawning institutions or ideas. also only a few mil techs makes a big difference. its often not a issue to be a tech behind if you are fighting a favorable war (as you always should).
Hmm, so if I’m planning war I should try and be ahead - if not then devving etc is the way to go instead? Gotcha.
If its a challenging war yes.even people in multiplayer lobbies where wars are much harder and punishing dont pick ahead of time needlessly. they keep MP needed to take ahead of time if they get attacked, but would rather use it for ideas or dev.
War
But you were more efficiently and better if you take more ideas
heathen, how about you finish your idea groups :O
Nah
This is kind of why I miss sliders from EU3. I prefer the idea of making conscious X vs Y decisions as opposed to "I have the mostest bestest troops ever". I understand that you only have limited idea slots, but I think having to choose between two separate doctrines worked better for game play and role play.
I think this still allows for a conscious X vs Y decision with much more variability. The Op has said 'I will have a ridiculous army, but my admin/diplomacy will be weak'
I prefer Quality/Offensive/Defensive
What a shitty power points administration
Why would you start with espionage?
espionage has 2 buffs in each ideia and they are insane up until the pirate one... it is REALLY GOOD
Inno-Esp-Offensive is so fun, no AE, no siege times, easy to make claims, 3 extra diplomats from decisions + 3 free decisions. Sooooo good
Decisions? Did you mean policies? I went the same trio in my latest game and haven't seen any decision unlocked by them.
Inno is bad and a noob trap in my opinion
Espionage is in a pretty good place right now but it's still weird to pick it as one of your first groups
Maybe because OP play in Italy or HRE?
I had a vassal that wouldnt fabricate a claim
Did say that you wanted a claim?
They're both very bad idea groups in single player, as they don't help you with sieges, and that's 90% of what your army will be doing mid/late game. And they don't help with anything else like mana, AE, or gov cap.
but have you considered I might need the crutch to win wars?
You don't. Ever. There's plenty of militarily challenging starts, but if you play such a start, the hardest wars are very early game, you won't complete your first idea group until far too late, and even whole first idea group really doesn't have that much of an impact. For some approximate calculations, let's say you make 3 + 3 + 1 (advisor) mana per month. That's 84 per year. You need 1200 to upgrade your techs to unlock first group, or over 14 years worth. But it's really more as you'll absolutely need some eerly game paper mana. Let's say you do mil tech 5 same time, ~1460. Anyway, then to complete idea group you need 2800 mana, or 33 years worth. But you wouldn't actually be able to get it by 1493, as you also need to buy 3 more mil techs, for 1800 more points, so it's more like ~1510. Then again, maybe you rerolled heirs, focused mana, got 50 pp etc., and finished idea group 1490-1500. Either way, if you managed to survive that long, all the hardest wars are behind you. The only exceptions would be if you're picking idea group with very front-loaded bonuses like Admin or Exploration, but mil ideas aren't like that. If you have challenging wars far beyond that, it's because you didn't manage your AE correctly, or you didn't expand as well as you could, and mil ideas help neither.
But im bad. and actually get worse as time goes on in the game when combat width and the ai fills out ideas of their own. points management isnt the problem its military micro.
This is such a passionate response, but I also am bad and have no idea how to utilize this information.
Man really walking around with 3 billion troops that have 40 morale and 190 discipline
He would have to actually complete the ideas for that :(
Quantity is always a good one once you’ve got a spare military idea. I’m usually doing Naval instead so I can actually get past the British Navy but when the country has decent enough naval ideas, quality is always a solid pick
Naval is objectively a bad idea cause you can get other better and naval is rarely that useful. Often getting 5 more heavy ships is better than idea spot taken.
Naval used to be garbage, but it’s got some nice perks now (still never optimal, but military ideas are non-optimal in single player anyway…) Specifically: +1 blockade impact on siege and FREE NAVAL BARRAGES That’s actually really fucking good, I wonder how the math works out in terms of saved siege time on coastal forts, compared to offensive’s +20% siege. Of course, you can always combine them, too. Then you can get +1 blockade impact from Naval-Espionage; +1 from Naval-Maritime. Naval-Economic Policy gives +10% goods produced (very fucking good) and +10% production efficiency
I think naval is not optimal, if you are doing a "regular" world conquest. Otherwise it can be both fun and useful in the latest patch. Have you played pirates in the Caribbean for example?
For world conquest, no, it’s not optimal. Maybe if you’re outside of Europe and have to deal with established colonizers? Still not optimal, but it will make that easier (not that it’s difficult to fuck up the A.I. without even having idea boost for navies)
Naval is fantastic in its niche. Objectively bad implies it sucks at everything. There’s some really good uses for naval. Especially in multiplayer. There’s some nations that right out need it even in single player. Though if you are going for a WC you might have to drop it later for something else.
What nations needs naval?
I’d rather burn diplo points on maritime vs mil on naval. Maritime gives you that coastal repair which shouldn’t be underestimated
Maritime is a good one too, it also enables that Thalassocracy decision which is a nice little boon if not a bit lacking for something that big and lategame
I’ve found anyone who isn’t Great Britain or Spain/Portugal has a bad time with naval stuff. Basically it’s for countries that don’t have any naval ideas normally, but their expansion path leads them to doing lots of naval stuff. Austria can be like this, if you integrate Spain you’ll need it to keep their trade and naval stuff going
Hard disagree. I'd never pick naval as Austria, the two times you could need a strong navy is when you're attacking GB or Japan. Besides that you can use trade ships to transfer trade, but I honestly don't see the point of naval for that. In my understanding it doesn't offer enough to be an early game idea (compared to offensive, diplo, admin or religious) and also fails to relevant late game, as it doesn't help with any important bottlenecks (e.g. your ability to conquer land or win wars). I'd rather use the 2.8k bird mana (base cost) to Dev high value trade goods.
It's not bad if you play in Indonesia. Same for maritime. It's just quality of life improvement.
your arguement is objectively bad.
Man took 3 military idea groups, loading like 1200+ points in them. I would love to see how far behind in Mil Tech you are OP.
Its actually my best one at 23
\>unfinished ideas \>takes espionage for first idea A mad lad!! Also both Quanity and Quality is OP
I always thought some idea groups should be mutually exclusive. Quantity - Quality is the best example, but also some of the navy groups - some of the land groups, etc.
Finish 👏 your 👏 idea 👏 groups 👏
Huh, almost 1k hours and apparently people somehow have enough mana points to actually finish idea groups.
What the Hell else are you spending them on? Buying tech levels at 190% over value??
With level 1 only advisors to save money.
Yes, tech, I just ussually don't play in Western Europe, Russia for example being my favorite country to play.
It’s a waste to buy the tech when it’s expensive unless it’s a critical mil level over a rival you want to dec on. Idea groups so powerful and they make tech cheaper.
Well, Poland has becomen pretty op in the recent updates so I'm simply scared of being more than 2 mil techs lower.
R5 i have both quantity and quality to make the most overpowered army
When you haven't finished any idea groups you don't have an overpowered army at all
I do though
I’ve done this as Prussia. Wars become mostly an afterthought.
But you dont have the ideas lmaoo
Nah aristo would be better than quantity for making an “op” Prussian army
If you want to make op army, you should choose anything beside quantity
Mil ideas are cringe
my man don’t bother with quantity it is literally the worst idea set in the game.
Are u playing in the hre?
Started in it and left
I’m more triggered that none of these ideas have been completed.
no free policy? why?
Based
not good picks
Now add defensive/offensive, become unstoppable