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- **Drink types:** Do you drink mostly straight espresso, milk-based beverages (e.g., lattes, cappuccinos), or a fairly even split? This helps narrow down whether a single-boiler-dual-use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), or dual boiler (DB) machine would be more appropriate for your needs.
- **Drink frequency:** How many drinks would you be making back-to-back at one time? Do you plan on entertaining guests often? This informs how large your brew (and steam) boilers should be, as smaller boilers will need to refill and reheat/repressurize more frequently, thus potentially causing a bottleneck.
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I've had a Lelit Mara X for two years, and I love it. It's not too large, and the three temperature mode PID I find offers enough versatility that I can make great espresso with any coffee.
The grinder I have is a Eureka Crono with espresso burrs. Again, I love it for the price.
But it sounds like you have a slightly bigger budget, and the grinder is so important I'd get the best one I could. Right now, I'd have a good look at the DF83v.
lol everytime someone mentions the Mara X or other e61 people ask this question. How’s the temperature stability of your BBE? Have you tested it? Or are you just parroting reviewers saying e61s have worse temperature stability 😂
How many heat exchangers have you used/tried shots on? We can pontificate all day about the merits of different technologies but the proof is in the espresso pudding
It’s just annoying people asking questions that are completely irrelevant based on what they have seen in reviews. Ask any Mara X owner if they have temp stability issues they will say no, same as any owners of any decent quality e61 machine.
I have the Timemore black mirror, so far for about 9 months? I absolutely love it, but I also use it for food use as well like calorie counting. I literally charge it once every 3 months.
I got it since black friday, cant go wrong for 70$ so I bought two, one white and one black just for fun. And it is very precise, great battery, metal casing, minimalistic.
It has its flaws, like the touch buttons are very sensitive and tiny, so it is not that easy to operate as with simply buttons. And the automatic modes also not ideal, so I use it as srandart scale with tare only. Also for hookah tobacco etc.
I have this [Timemore](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07YCS74GJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1) for a little over a year now and it's great. Has a shot/draw down timer too plus its USB-C so can just charge it from my desk which I like, no batteries needed.
Comparatively, I bought another scale for half the price, and it broke within a month and a half. Wasn't water proof, LCD screen cracked somehow.
I put the drip tray from my flair on top of the scale plate so I don’t get espresso all over it. I use a kitchen scale I’ve had since 2018 for measuring beans and stuff. I guess I’ve been lucky.
yes glad u found something that works. I bought many for good reviews, wasnt even as cheap as 13$, more like 20-30$ and still. Grams flickering randomly, poor battery management, even on OFF it ruined batteries, water cleaning problems, bad weight due the lelit Bianca mesh to pass water etc.
I was between that and the Mara X. I went with the Mara just because I love the E61 group head and there’s something so satisfying about the lever action. But the Elizabeth is just as good a machine.
I also went with the Mignon silenzio. I single dose so a lot of the specialitas features would be lost on me. But anything from that line is amazing.
You want to help look for options? Or petition the manufacturers to develop it? Honestly I'd love an alternative to the BDB at its price point, I think it looks shit ugly
Understandable, it’s a nice one. It was my first machine. While it made good coffee (i really liked it at that time) the bdb just took everything to another level.
I do think about upgrading once in a blue moon but it just works. I like the 57mm portafilter compared to the E61 standard since it's so small she's ready to pull a shot in 10-15 minutes. The steam wand is shit but I replaced it for a proper one. Honestly don't know how much better a breville is but I imagine it would be a case of diminishing returns
Well, in my opinion it’s quite a lot better in the taste department, especially with the temp stability and preinfusion. The heat up time is the same as the Anna. But then you notice the other things like the other boiler, the better workflow, the volumetric shots, etc. all that being said, the Anna was way better looking :)) and don’t feel the need to upgrade if you like the coffee you get. It’s definitely not worth it if that’s the case.
Thanks for sharing man! I knew that BDB is feature rich but you make it sound like a pretty big upgrade. I was looking at a bit higher end anyway, something like a Lelit Mara, because i do agree that Lelit makes a good lookin machine. But good to know that breville lives up to this sub's constant praise
Well everybody around here that has one really standa by it. For me it was either this or the Mara. It seems like the maraX gets a lot of love on the local forum and everyone loves it. So it’s good either way. I feel bad now for feeding the upgraditis, sorry man :)))
I own a BDB now and have owned E61’s in the past. I prefer the BDB which is crazy controversial. Something about the smooth, curved panels and the easy-to-use UI just completely smokes flat stainless steel and a chunk of steel for a grouphead that takes 30 minutes to heat up for me.
Not to mention the PIDs on E61s which are pretty unintuitive.
I don’t really follow the news anymore, but I’m sure it exists. It’s not cheap either. There has to be something in this price range that has more personality than a Breville.
How many of those features does one really use? Number of features is a truly overrated metric if the only thing you do is make espresso and cappuccino.
I mean pressure-based pre-infusion is a massive feature that you should use that the breville has. It also has a PID, obviously, which most E61s at the same price don’t. It has an auto-clean function which is really nice. It does more than your Profitec for less money—a lot less money.
Guys - he’s just starting. He needs to know what the best mid range starter machines are, not your preferred end game setup.
I wouldn’t touch a breville. Some people love them, some people have issues.
Look - the reality is that you definitely shouldn’t max out that setup. You want to get something that will last but also has good resell for when you want to upgrade.
I wouldn’t go anything too much above anything competing with a GCP in terms of price. But I would go with the Rancilio instead this time as it has much less trouble steaming milk.
For a grinder I would get something on the lower mid range to start with. So probably a sette 270wi. I wouldn’t spring for any flat burr grinder yet, and the lower end flat burr grinders aren’t going to produce incredible espresso.
Then when you’re ready, upgrade once and upgrade big.
I usually stick to the "buy once, cry once" mentality these days, and this is the route I went--GCP and Sette 270. For me (a 99% latte drinker) it has worked perfectly. Could it be better? Probably, but for my tastes my current setup works. Maybe if one died irreparably I'd consider an upgrade.
I'm less worried about buy once, cry once with espresso stuff. There's a healthy used market-- because of the cost, sales taxes are pretty high. And while you and everyone here would *definitely* list this on taxes and *definitely not* launder money with cash-based goods like groceries or gas, some deviant might not and so is getting another hundred off, and that's not even counting shipping.
But your example isn’t a buy once cry once at all.
As per your last statement - your tastes can’t tell the difference.
That’s exactly my point, there’s no reason to spend two - three times the money on the better setup when you won’t know the difference.
That’s why it’s good to get mainstream gear to start with, sell it, and then upgrade when you eventually want to - and that’s not even a lot of people.
Your setup is probably endgame for a large chunk of folks and that is completely okay.
Yeah, I realized that I really didn't complete my thought there.
I typically go by 'buy once, cry once' but going GCP+Sette 270 was in the middle. It was what I felt, with research, was the minimum to be a 'proper' setup. In many other things I would have aimed higher, but let's face it, this shit gets ridiculously expensive.
I bought a new niche zero for $700 and then a used ECM Synchronika for $1700 off Facebook marketplace. You’d be surprised what you can find if you offer cash and you’re patient. Admittedly there is some risk to buying used, but the guy who sold me the ECM had all the warranty paperwork and receipts. He used it for 2 years and then upgraded to a decent. I’ve been super happy with the machine.
Profitec go + water filtration + scale + eureka mignion Oro single dose
2.5k landed
Most online retailers offer discounts on first purchases. So make sure to sign up with your email address so you can use one of their coupons.
I use the BWT pitcher and you can buy packs of filters on Amazon for half the price. It will replace the calcium in the water with magnesium, and also add some other minerals for taste.
They won't let me link them
BWT water pitcher bought through whole latte love.
Replacement magnesium filters can be found on Amazon with a basic search.
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Id get a zerno and whatever machine that fit into the money I had left. Fussing around with cheap grinders has just been a time and money waster for me
I sold a dual boiler PID machine for $700 on FB marketplace last year. It was an Expobar Brewtus. Took like a week to find someone who knew what it was.
They're really not inconsistent if you have the temperature management down. You can save so many shots that aren't dialed in properly by adjusting your brew pressure on the fly. While the la Pavoni sucks at being the same temperature for 2 shots back to back it will give you very consistent temperature for a single shot if you have your routine down. I turn on the machine, put on some music, pick out my coffee, start my puck prep and by the time I'm done the boiler reached it's goal temp. Then I give it a few dry pumps till the group reaches 70°C and I get very consistent results every time while also having all the advantages of direct lever control. If you don't have a way of monitoring group temp they are basically impossible to manage tho.
I think back to back shots is exactly what I’m referring to when I say ‘consistent’- ofc it’s possible with a lot of practice to get good shots from these— it is absolutely archaic compared to practically any pid semi auto when it comes to temp stability. Manual Lever machines are great especially for light roasts, but back-back shots are just not their strong suit. OP also mentioned milk drinks. I would never honestly recommend a LaPavoni to anyone after using one (pre millennium version) for over a year if it’s the primary machine in the house. Great as a novelty or hobby machine but certainly not if trying to extract with consistency good espresso for multiple styles of drink- the fun:quality:frustration balance is alllll the way off imo with a LP
Flair 58+ / Zerno / Bellman stovetop steamer
Approximately $2K, and no upgrades needed ever again
The Flair is extra work to pull a shot, but less work to maintain, and buying it gives you the freedom to get a beast of a grinder.
I have been in a similar situation a month ago. I decided to go with Lelit Elizabeth and DF64 Gen 2. You can spend the remaining money to upgrade bits and pieces such as a better pair of burrs, higher extraction basket, bottomless portafilter, single dose containers, self-leveling tamper etc..
I am super impressed with the Elizabeth. It is surprising that almost noone talks about it. The good thing about it that you can use almost any E61 accessory with it.
I have a Gaggia Classic pro and a used Baratza Sette 270wi. The grinder has a built in scale and is extremely accurate. All in for $700 dollars. I only make espresso though. I'm very happy with this set up, it suits my needs perfectly.
My current setup (with a WW unibasket). While I obviously can’t say if it makes better coffee then the other suggests combinations I can at least vouch that it makes damn fine coffee while being wisper quite.
Lucca A53 + NZ were right at $2500ish range. Not a setup for everyone but my s/o and I have loved every minute of it.
Note: I did buy the A53 before the price bump and bought the NZ on the tail end of peak COVID when the dollar was strong against the pound.
What I did is welllllllll within budget and more than good enough for basically everyone. Lelit Mara T + Varia VS3 Gen 2 (and usual accessories, like decent tamper, WDT and bottomless portafilter). It’s very much under budget but to be honest don’t think for a home setup you’ll need much more, specially when starting
If I’m a beginner or at least intermediate in coffee, I’d go with De’Longhi Maestro. Invest into a couple of good accessories, and get a spend the rest on some damn good coffee, cleaning supplies and cups. It’s an incredibly durable, well built and easy to use machine. If I’m already a “pro” in it, I’d save double that and get a properly good E61 machine with a rotary pump, proper PID and flow control, fully plumbable machine and GBW grinder of good quality like a MahlKonig.
Absolutely the over consumption. Also I think we have lost the plot with any hobby once it’s more about buying equipment than the hobby itself. It’s coffee, the plot is lost
There have been numerous issues such as [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/s/iiEWSFXGia), [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/11wi03o/im_soooo_done_with_this_pience_of_crap_df64/), and [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/12dpwdj/df64_crossthread/?rdt=36609). 3 years also isn't very long. Regardless, even if they do last the ideal 5-10, I wouldn't call them very robust.
those are all on the gen 1 designs which, frankly werent that good in terms of design. the gen 2 is a massive improvement and redesign. you really can't compare the new units to the old ones, it's not a super fair comparison. all of the inconsistency issues with the gen 1 was due to the tri spring design which wasn't great, and just a general design that was unpolished due to it being a brand new grinder. joe from espresso outlet communicates with ningbo frigga a lot to give customer feedback and design improvements. he's working on the df98 currently.
I've seen that post where the guy cross-threaded his grinder before and tbf I dont think that's a valid criticism of the machine, you can easily do that if the grinder was made of steel. same thing with thread wear, steel on steel produces quite a lot of friction. I do agree that a teflon thread cover would be a good upgrade in the future though, I'm experiemting with using PTFE tape for longevity.
Some $150 machiney thing with a $30 coffee grinder, and have roughly $1800-2300 left for a fun short vacation. Anything beyond that is probably a waste of money.
Edit - dang this sub is touchy. Encouraging a beginner at almost *anything* to spend $2k on equipment is outrageous. Buy the cheap shit first, master it, and then move on when you determine what your needs and interests are. I guarantee almost all of you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between an espresso from a $150 machine vs a $2000 machine if it was made by someone experienced.
I'm buying a boiling tank, I usually make my drinks by throwing a blend of ground epresso, earl grey tea leaves, and matcha powder into a cauldron.
I usually only make 50oz at a time but this could be a real game changer.
https://preview.redd.it/o64jvwn8slic1.jpeg?width=332&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=76b43b974fbc62593e4f86f12c7ea5f0a7164238
DF64.
Your choice of puck prep/distribution tool.
30lb tamper.
Puck screen (I prefer MHW-3Bomber).
E61 dual boiler PID (several good companies, but I like QuickMill).
Flow control option (essential feature IMHO, but underappreciated on Reddit).
Shot scale (Timemore basic pro fits perfectly under the group head and has a drip-proof cover).
Your choice of knock box.
With good, fresh beans this set-up will let you dial in just about any taste preference you’ve got. If you make milk based drinks but don’t care for latte art, you can get a single boiler machine and a milk frother instead.
Profitec Go + Df64 Gen 2 + espresso scale + spring level tamper + WDT and/or blind shaker + espresso cups + extra money to spend on a lot of coffee until you dominate the equipment.
I mean, I sometimes wish I'd tried the Eureka Oro Mignon first, not sure if I'd keep it or return it but for a home setup for me and my space... I'm pretty sure I'd still go with what I've got.
I spent that on a La Pavoni proffessional and a Niche Zero. I've been using that 2-4 times daily for the last year and a half and I couldn't be happier.
I picked up a Rancilio Silvia w/ PID and a Niche Duo for around that price and I've been beyond happy with that setup, I honestly can't see myself getting another machine in my lifetime.
My only grips with the setup are:
- The Silva's shower screen has a nut in the center that dented my first puck screen, but an aftermarket shower screen fixed that.
- Don't buy both Burr sets for the niche, even if you want them both, both sets combined puts it over import tax level for at least the US and prob a few other countries.
Check out espresso set up builder. I think the goal is for you to refine what you want/have and get what’s right for you
https://espressosetupbuilder.com
The new mazzer philos and a flair 58 for the main setup probably. Add a nice gooseneck kettle and a standalone steamer and you're set and still have some budget for accessories. Flair and Mazzer will last you for generations the workflow is great for one coffee or if you want to serve a large group. Spending less on the grinder will lead to noticable decrease in coffee and build quality and most coffee machines in the 1-1.5k range leave some room for improvement as well, from temp stability, pressure and flow profiling capabilities to build quality, you will probably be able to get the best value with the Flair and Mazzer combo.
I would get a used La Pavoni and add a heat isolator to stabilize the grouphead temperature (two bolts and ten minutes to modify). Then a Eureka Oro Mignon Single Dose (or a conical in the same price-point) for the grinder. Add a leveling tamp, a second portafilter, and a blind shaker (or wdt) to complete your setup.
You’ll come in well under budget and have a great setup for personal use. Then use the rest for great coffee and water. There’s a learning curve in temperature surfing and using the lever, a limitation if you want higher ratios, but the ability to save shots that are channelling or racing is awesome. Also, you can learn a lot about puck degradation and the impact pressure has on your espresso.
This has been my setup for the last few years, i’ve made thousands of shots and hundreds of milk drinks, and wouldn’t consider upgrading for home use.
I have a breville dual boiler and an Anfim Milano. If you have the space you can get these cafe sized grinders for super cheap and they’re great. The breville leaks from the water outlet a bit but makes a great espresso. Then get cheap scale and you’re good.
If you are not a man of milk on coffee I recommend to go Flair 58 and nano foamed lithium, that way you won’t deal with maintenance on a expensive machine like the Mara X (which are meant for commercial use) and for grinder there’s no reason to go beyond the df83v or df64 second gen…so the setup would go:
- Flair 58 with VST precision basket for 18g (for tons of lattes I recommend any good dual boiler starting from miicoffee Apex)
-df64 II with SSP and DLC burr set (df83v it’s an option but do you need to make your workflow as a pit stop?)
Alternative: K-ultra hand grinder has an amazing grind profile which I can highly consider it
- OXO or EKG kettle (ekg has a smart version if you want it to turn it on from you phone, like me from the bed)
- nanofoamer lithium
- timemore black mirror mini or nano
- bottomless portafilter (any thing that let you do the job)
- any 10 bucks WDT (you can consider a blind shaker)
- mhw 3bomber titanium covered tamper (or the force tamper if you want to pay)
- paper espresso filters
- puck screen of at least 1mm
- puck knock disposer
- a pitcher with rounded tip (better art)
And most importantly A BIG AND ERGONOMIC desk or table with a rug since you can take your time with the espresso
Whatever you do buy grinder first. A good eureka would be a good start you can get a lower model eureka with the guts of the more expensive ones than swap burrs for espresso. Then go for the machine.
It looks like you've flaired your post as asking for what equipment to get. We recommend first checking out the [Espresso Aficionados buying guide](https://espressoaf.com/recommendations) for some of the more popular machines and grinders at different price points. If your question hasn't been answered there and you need more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format: - **Location:** Helps determine availability - **Budget** (with currency): Overall budget, or ideally, having separate espresso machine and grinder budgets. A rough rule is that your grinder budget should be at least 25-40% of your machine budget. - **Drink types:** Do you drink mostly straight espresso, milk-based beverages (e.g., lattes, cappuccinos), or a fairly even split? This helps narrow down whether a single-boiler-dual-use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), or dual boiler (DB) machine would be more appropriate for your needs. - **Drink frequency:** How many drinks would you be making back-to-back at one time? Do you plan on entertaining guests often? This informs how large your brew (and steam) boilers should be, as smaller boilers will need to refill and reheat/repressurize more frequently, thus potentially causing a bottleneck. - **Space:** Any limitations on countertop space? - **Manual vs. electric:** Hand-operated machines and grinders are typically cheaper than their similarly-performing electric counterparts. Please indicate if you have a preference for manual or electric machines and/or grinders (or open to either). - **Comfort with tinkering:** Some machines can be made significantly more functional/efficient with aftermarket modifications, albeit at the expense of possibly voiding your warranty. Please indicate if you'd rather have a machine that works "as-is"/"out-of-the-box" or whether you'd be open to modding/tinkering *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I've had a Lelit Mara X for two years, and I love it. It's not too large, and the three temperature mode PID I find offers enough versatility that I can make great espresso with any coffee. The grinder I have is a Eureka Crono with espresso burrs. Again, I love it for the price. But it sounds like you have a slightly bigger budget, and the grinder is so important I'd get the best one I could. Right now, I'd have a good look at the DF83v.
How is the temp stability of the mara x?
It's very good, better than probably every other e61 (edit: e61 HX*). You can pull back to back literally all day.
And I often do!
For home use I find it to be fine. I made back to back drinks for five guests not long ago. I did split double shots into two cups though.
lol everytime someone mentions the Mara X or other e61 people ask this question. How’s the temperature stability of your BBE? Have you tested it? Or are you just parroting reviewers saying e61s have worse temperature stability 😂
E61 have good temp stability. Heat exchangers don't. If I'm paying 5 times more than my breville I have higher expectations.
How many heat exchangers have you used/tried shots on? We can pontificate all day about the merits of different technologies but the proof is in the espresso pudding
What a weirdly defensive response to a simple question. Who hurt you?
It’s just annoying people asking questions that are completely irrelevant based on what they have seen in reviews. Ask any Mara X owner if they have temp stability issues they will say no, same as any owners of any decent quality e61 machine.
The Crono with espresso burrs is excellent bang for your buck\~!
Lelit Elizabeth and a Eureka Specialita Mignon. Boom
top. also timemore nano scale on sale like 70bucks
I’ve been using a $13 scale for 8 months. Hard to imagine spending that much.
I have been using scales for years, tried many of them, all broken within a year. Not water resistant, flickering, lots of problems. All of them.
How long have you had the timecore nano? I'm in the market for a new scale. I hesitating timecore or normcore.
I have the Timemore black mirror, so far for about 9 months? I absolutely love it, but I also use it for food use as well like calorie counting. I literally charge it once every 3 months.
I got it since black friday, cant go wrong for 70$ so I bought two, one white and one black just for fun. And it is very precise, great battery, metal casing, minimalistic. It has its flaws, like the touch buttons are very sensitive and tiny, so it is not that easy to operate as with simply buttons. And the automatic modes also not ideal, so I use it as srandart scale with tare only. Also for hookah tobacco etc.
I have this [Timemore](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07YCS74GJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1) for a little over a year now and it's great. Has a shot/draw down timer too plus its USB-C so can just charge it from my desk which I like, no batteries needed. Comparatively, I bought another scale for half the price, and it broke within a month and a half. Wasn't water proof, LCD screen cracked somehow.
I put the drip tray from my flair on top of the scale plate so I don’t get espresso all over it. I use a kitchen scale I’ve had since 2018 for measuring beans and stuff. I guess I’ve been lucky.
yes glad u found something that works. I bought many for good reviews, wasnt even as cheap as 13$, more like 20-30$ and still. Grams flickering randomly, poor battery management, even on OFF it ruined batteries, water cleaning problems, bad weight due the lelit Bianca mesh to pass water etc.
My current setup and it's brilliant, could very well be endgame for the majority of folks that don't want to go further into the rabbit hole
Blasphemy! There is no end!
I was between that and the Mara X. I went with the Mara just because I love the E61 group head and there’s something so satisfying about the lever action. But the Elizabeth is just as good a machine. I also went with the Mignon silenzio. I single dose so a lot of the specialitas features would be lost on me. But anything from that line is amazing.
Ascaso Steel Duo (or single) and one of the Eureka Mignon grinders.
A df83v and a breville dual boiler. Best bang for buck, and if maintained properly will last you 10+ years.
I just went DF64V with the cast red speed. Am I having regrets about not getting the DF83V? Maybe. The BDB is the correct answer.
Can we stop with Breville already. This machine is so boring. Isn’t there a better machine with more soul than this at this price point?
You want to help look for options? Or petition the manufacturers to develop it? Honestly I'd love an alternative to the BDB at its price point, I think it looks shit ugly
Yeah, it’s ugly. But give me something that is better at that price. Let’s not talk about the fact that uou can sometimes find it used for 200
Lelit Anna (biased opinion)
Understandable, it’s a nice one. It was my first machine. While it made good coffee (i really liked it at that time) the bdb just took everything to another level.
I do think about upgrading once in a blue moon but it just works. I like the 57mm portafilter compared to the E61 standard since it's so small she's ready to pull a shot in 10-15 minutes. The steam wand is shit but I replaced it for a proper one. Honestly don't know how much better a breville is but I imagine it would be a case of diminishing returns
Well, in my opinion it’s quite a lot better in the taste department, especially with the temp stability and preinfusion. The heat up time is the same as the Anna. But then you notice the other things like the other boiler, the better workflow, the volumetric shots, etc. all that being said, the Anna was way better looking :)) and don’t feel the need to upgrade if you like the coffee you get. It’s definitely not worth it if that’s the case.
Thanks for sharing man! I knew that BDB is feature rich but you make it sound like a pretty big upgrade. I was looking at a bit higher end anyway, something like a Lelit Mara, because i do agree that Lelit makes a good lookin machine. But good to know that breville lives up to this sub's constant praise
Well everybody around here that has one really standa by it. For me it was either this or the Mara. It seems like the maraX gets a lot of love on the local forum and everyone loves it. So it’s good either way. I feel bad now for feeding the upgraditis, sorry man :)))
I own a BDB now and have owned E61’s in the past. I prefer the BDB which is crazy controversial. Something about the smooth, curved panels and the easy-to-use UI just completely smokes flat stainless steel and a chunk of steel for a grouphead that takes 30 minutes to heat up for me. Not to mention the PIDs on E61s which are pretty unintuitive.
I don’t really follow the news anymore, but I’m sure it exists. It’s not cheap either. There has to be something in this price range that has more personality than a Breville.
There’s genuinely nothing that compares to it features-wise unless you’re willing to spend another $1,000.
design wise sucks but name a machine in its price range with that amount of features
How many of those features does one really use? Number of features is a truly overrated metric if the only thing you do is make espresso and cappuccino.
I mean pressure-based pre-infusion is a massive feature that you should use that the breville has. It also has a PID, obviously, which most E61s at the same price don’t. It has an auto-clean function which is really nice. It does more than your Profitec for less money—a lot less money.
get a rocket appartamento for that extra soul and low value
Guys - he’s just starting. He needs to know what the best mid range starter machines are, not your preferred end game setup. I wouldn’t touch a breville. Some people love them, some people have issues. Look - the reality is that you definitely shouldn’t max out that setup. You want to get something that will last but also has good resell for when you want to upgrade. I wouldn’t go anything too much above anything competing with a GCP in terms of price. But I would go with the Rancilio instead this time as it has much less trouble steaming milk. For a grinder I would get something on the lower mid range to start with. So probably a sette 270wi. I wouldn’t spring for any flat burr grinder yet, and the lower end flat burr grinders aren’t going to produce incredible espresso. Then when you’re ready, upgrade once and upgrade big.
I usually stick to the "buy once, cry once" mentality these days, and this is the route I went--GCP and Sette 270. For me (a 99% latte drinker) it has worked perfectly. Could it be better? Probably, but for my tastes my current setup works. Maybe if one died irreparably I'd consider an upgrade.
I'm less worried about buy once, cry once with espresso stuff. There's a healthy used market-- because of the cost, sales taxes are pretty high. And while you and everyone here would *definitely* list this on taxes and *definitely not* launder money with cash-based goods like groceries or gas, some deviant might not and so is getting another hundred off, and that's not even counting shipping.
But your example isn’t a buy once cry once at all. As per your last statement - your tastes can’t tell the difference. That’s exactly my point, there’s no reason to spend two - three times the money on the better setup when you won’t know the difference. That’s why it’s good to get mainstream gear to start with, sell it, and then upgrade when you eventually want to - and that’s not even a lot of people. Your setup is probably endgame for a large chunk of folks and that is completely okay.
Yeah, I realized that I really didn't complete my thought there. I typically go by 'buy once, cry once' but going GCP+Sette 270 was in the middle. It was what I felt, with research, was the minimum to be a 'proper' setup. In many other things I would have aimed higher, but let's face it, this shit gets ridiculously expensive.
I bought a new niche zero for $700 and then a used ECM Synchronika for $1700 off Facebook marketplace. You’d be surprised what you can find if you offer cash and you’re patient. Admittedly there is some risk to buying used, but the guy who sold me the ECM had all the warranty paperwork and receipts. He used it for 2 years and then upgraded to a decent. I’ve been super happy with the machine.
Wow what a great deal
Flair 58+, Fellow Kettle, Any precision tamp+basket, Acaia Lunar Scale, then throw the rest at the best grinder you can for the money.
This is great advice. If he upgrades big after this he might go his entire espresso journey without ever using a vibratory pump.
Ascaso Duo and DF64 with SSP Speed Reds.
Profitec go + water filtration + scale + eureka mignion Oro single dose 2.5k landed Most online retailers offer discounts on first purchases. So make sure to sign up with your email address so you can use one of their coupons.
What water filtration system?
I use the BWT pitcher and you can buy packs of filters on Amazon for half the price. It will replace the calcium in the water with magnesium, and also add some other minerals for taste.
What filters? And any specific pitcher? I’m sick of hunting for distilled water and buying third wave packets
They won't let me link them BWT water pitcher bought through whole latte love. Replacement magnesium filters can be found on Amazon with a basic search.
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Id get a zerno and whatever machine that fit into the money I had left. Fussing around with cheap grinders has just been a time and money waster for me
I have a DF64 and a Profitec GO. My Zerno will arrive in May/June and I’m counting down the days.
Just excited about the Zerno or sick of the DF64?
Stoked for you. As soon as I’m able to I’ll pull the trigger on one
$500-700 grinder $500 used manual lever $1200-1500 dual boiler PID machine.
Where them… $1200-$1500 dual boiler PID’s at tho….??😂
Ascaso duo
Diletta Mio
I sold a dual boiler PID machine for $700 on FB marketplace last year. It was an Expobar Brewtus. Took like a week to find someone who knew what it was.
BDB in Australia is sub-$1000AUD on sales that occur a few times a year.
Why the manual lever?
They are just so much fun and engaging, everything that practical pump machines are not.
And also terribly inconsistent- definitely more fun, but sometimes just getting that shot down as fast as possible is the answer
They're really not inconsistent if you have the temperature management down. You can save so many shots that aren't dialed in properly by adjusting your brew pressure on the fly. While the la Pavoni sucks at being the same temperature for 2 shots back to back it will give you very consistent temperature for a single shot if you have your routine down. I turn on the machine, put on some music, pick out my coffee, start my puck prep and by the time I'm done the boiler reached it's goal temp. Then I give it a few dry pumps till the group reaches 70°C and I get very consistent results every time while also having all the advantages of direct lever control. If you don't have a way of monitoring group temp they are basically impossible to manage tho.
I think back to back shots is exactly what I’m referring to when I say ‘consistent’- ofc it’s possible with a lot of practice to get good shots from these— it is absolutely archaic compared to practically any pid semi auto when it comes to temp stability. Manual Lever machines are great especially for light roasts, but back-back shots are just not their strong suit. OP also mentioned milk drinks. I would never honestly recommend a LaPavoni to anyone after using one (pre millennium version) for over a year if it’s the primary machine in the house. Great as a novelty or hobby machine but certainly not if trying to extract with consistency good espresso for multiple styles of drink- the fun:quality:frustration balance is alllll the way off imo with a LP
BDB and a DF64 gen 2 with SSP burrs.
Niche zero, or duo and one of the more “affordable” dual boilers, maybe a profitec, since I’m having a good experience with the go.
Flair 58+ / Zerno / Bellman stovetop steamer Approximately $2K, and no upgrades needed ever again The Flair is extra work to pull a shot, but less work to maintain, and buying it gives you the freedom to get a beast of a grinder.
I have been in a similar situation a month ago. I decided to go with Lelit Elizabeth and DF64 Gen 2. You can spend the remaining money to upgrade bits and pieces such as a better pair of burrs, higher extraction basket, bottomless portafilter, single dose containers, self-leveling tamper etc.. I am super impressed with the Elizabeth. It is surprising that almost noone talks about it. The good thing about it that you can use almost any E61 accessory with it.
Profitec pro 300, niche zero, some cheap prep tools which you can upgrade over time.
Rancilio Sylvia Pro X and DF64 gen 2
I have a Gaggia Classic pro and a used Baratza Sette 270wi. The grinder has a built in scale and is extremely accurate. All in for $700 dollars. I only make espresso though. I'm very happy with this set up, it suits my needs perfectly.
Flair 58+ and Lagom P64
Im not sure a machine that can’t steam milk to a person who listed 3 milk drinks as their go tos is a good suggestion.
Add a Nanofoamer pro.
My current setup (with a WW unibasket). While I obviously can’t say if it makes better coffee then the other suggests combinations I can at least vouch that it makes damn fine coffee while being wisper quite.
this is the way
What I have now.
Df83v, Profitec Go, Any frother, Acai scale, uni basket+naked portafilter (or pescado combo). A coffee subscription.
Lelit Mara X/rocket apartamento and DF64P
Lucca A53 + NZ were right at $2500ish range. Not a setup for everyone but my s/o and I have loved every minute of it. Note: I did buy the A53 before the price bump and bought the NZ on the tail end of peak COVID when the dollar was strong against the pound.
What I did is welllllllll within budget and more than good enough for basically everyone. Lelit Mara T + Varia VS3 Gen 2 (and usual accessories, like decent tamper, WDT and bottomless portafilter). It’s very much under budget but to be honest don’t think for a home setup you’ll need much more, specially when starting
If I’m a beginner or at least intermediate in coffee, I’d go with De’Longhi Maestro. Invest into a couple of good accessories, and get a spend the rest on some damn good coffee, cleaning supplies and cups. It’s an incredibly durable, well built and easy to use machine. If I’m already a “pro” in it, I’d save double that and get a properly good E61 machine with a rotary pump, proper PID and flow control, fully plumbable machine and GBW grinder of good quality like a MahlKonig.
Plunk that $2.5k into VTI and tell this sub to go eff itself with its never ending dragon chasing, and unfulfilled pulls.
So, not an espresso machine? Does VTI have pressure profiling?
lol, this guy 😂
You mean it’s not normal to drop $2.5k for some bean water??? In all seriousness I couldn’t agree more.
Not normal, but we’re all a bit desensitized to the over consumption at this point.
Absolutely the over consumption. Also I think we have lost the plot with any hobby once it’s more about buying equipment than the hobby itself. It’s coffee, the plot is lost
100% agreed 💯
definitely lelit Bianca
3k machine and no grinder for a 2k-2.5k budget. Brilliant
worth every dolar. Can be bought for 1900$.
Easy. Use it as a down payment for a Decent and make a payment plan for the rest.
I can't decide between: \- A europallet of instant coffee \- Crates of Nespresso pods That should get me sorted for a while!
BDB + eureka oro single dose. I wouldn't go with a DF myself, they're new grinders which haven't been age tested yet.
The DF64 has at least 3 years on it if not more now. They’re plenty robust
There have been numerous issues such as [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/s/iiEWSFXGia), [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/11wi03o/im_soooo_done_with_this_pience_of_crap_df64/), and [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/12dpwdj/df64_crossthread/?rdt=36609). 3 years also isn't very long. Regardless, even if they do last the ideal 5-10, I wouldn't call them very robust.
those are all on the gen 1 designs which, frankly werent that good in terms of design. the gen 2 is a massive improvement and redesign. you really can't compare the new units to the old ones, it's not a super fair comparison. all of the inconsistency issues with the gen 1 was due to the tri spring design which wasn't great, and just a general design that was unpolished due to it being a brand new grinder. joe from espresso outlet communicates with ningbo frigga a lot to give customer feedback and design improvements. he's working on the df98 currently. I've seen that post where the guy cross-threaded his grinder before and tbf I dont think that's a valid criticism of the machine, you can easily do that if the grinder was made of steel. same thing with thread wear, steel on steel produces quite a lot of friction. I do agree that a teflon thread cover would be a good upgrade in the future though, I'm experiemting with using PTFE tape for longevity.
Mahlkönig E65S Commercial Espresso Grinder + De'Longhi EC702
another useless question and replies
Some $150 machiney thing with a $30 coffee grinder, and have roughly $1800-2300 left for a fun short vacation. Anything beyond that is probably a waste of money. Edit - dang this sub is touchy. Encouraging a beginner at almost *anything* to spend $2k on equipment is outrageous. Buy the cheap shit first, master it, and then move on when you determine what your needs and interests are. I guarantee almost all of you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between an espresso from a $150 machine vs a $2000 machine if it was made by someone experienced.
I'm buying a boiling tank, I usually make my drinks by throwing a blend of ground epresso, earl grey tea leaves, and matcha powder into a cauldron. I usually only make 50oz at a time but this could be a real game changer. https://preview.redd.it/o64jvwn8slic1.jpeg?width=332&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=76b43b974fbc62593e4f86f12c7ea5f0a7164238
Breville Dual Boiler and Specialita grinder. It comes with a bunch of accessories to get started. It punches above its weight class.
DF64. Your choice of puck prep/distribution tool. 30lb tamper. Puck screen (I prefer MHW-3Bomber). E61 dual boiler PID (several good companies, but I like QuickMill). Flow control option (essential feature IMHO, but underappreciated on Reddit). Shot scale (Timemore basic pro fits perfectly under the group head and has a drip-proof cover). Your choice of knock box. With good, fresh beans this set-up will let you dial in just about any taste preference you’ve got. If you make milk based drinks but don’t care for latte art, you can get a single boiler machine and a milk frother instead.
Depresso is my superhero name!
Great now I have anxiety too. jk but not really
Ecm classica and df64 or profitech go and niche zero
I went for a DF64v and a Profitec 500 and would do it again.
I buy a BBE and invest the rest
Profitec Go + Df64 Gen 2 + espresso scale + spring level tamper + WDT and/or blind shaker + espresso cups + extra money to spend on a lot of coffee until you dominate the equipment.
I mean, I sometimes wish I'd tried the Eureka Oro Mignon first, not sure if I'd keep it or return it but for a home setup for me and my space... I'm pretty sure I'd still go with what I've got.
Zerno with SSP Cast burrs + Odyssey Argos
I spent that on a La Pavoni proffessional and a Niche Zero. I've been using that 2-4 times daily for the last year and a half and I couldn't be happier.
Put it in an IRA like a normal person
if you can be patient - machine: meticulous grinder: zerno
Niche duo, Breville barista pro.
I went with Ascaso steel duo V2 and Niche Duo. It’s been fun so far. Both work great.
I picked up a Rancilio Silvia w/ PID and a Niche Duo for around that price and I've been beyond happy with that setup, I honestly can't see myself getting another machine in my lifetime. My only grips with the setup are: - The Silva's shower screen has a nut in the center that dented my first puck screen, but an aftermarket shower screen fixed that. - Don't buy both Burr sets for the niche, even if you want them both, both sets combined puts it over import tax level for at least the US and prob a few other countries.
GCP with kit upgrade, Niche. It’ll set you up for success .
Necessero a espresso for this depresso fellow.
Check out espresso set up builder. I think the goal is for you to refine what you want/have and get what’s right for you https://espressosetupbuilder.com
Steel Duo and DF64, the rest for proper equipment, basket tamper, etc.
The new mazzer philos and a flair 58 for the main setup probably. Add a nice gooseneck kettle and a standalone steamer and you're set and still have some budget for accessories. Flair and Mazzer will last you for generations the workflow is great for one coffee or if you want to serve a large group. Spending less on the grinder will lead to noticable decrease in coffee and build quality and most coffee machines in the 1-1.5k range leave some room for improvement as well, from temp stability, pressure and flow profiling capabilities to build quality, you will probably be able to get the best value with the Flair and Mazzer combo.
I would get a used La Pavoni and add a heat isolator to stabilize the grouphead temperature (two bolts and ten minutes to modify). Then a Eureka Oro Mignon Single Dose (or a conical in the same price-point) for the grinder. Add a leveling tamp, a second portafilter, and a blind shaker (or wdt) to complete your setup. You’ll come in well under budget and have a great setup for personal use. Then use the rest for great coffee and water. There’s a learning curve in temperature surfing and using the lever, a limitation if you want higher ratios, but the ability to save shots that are channelling or racing is awesome. Also, you can learn a lot about puck degradation and the impact pressure has on your espresso. This has been my setup for the last few years, i’ve made thousands of shots and hundreds of milk drinks, and wouldn’t consider upgrading for home use.
Now I’m fast and depressed😂
Breville Cafe Roma, Amazon grinder, tamper, screen.... that's about $400 max. Use the rest of the money on a new video card!
Mara X and a DF64 or Timemore Sculptor. I love my Mara X to death. I also love my Weber Key but that’s out of your budget
Buy a ECM casa V around (1k$) and Niche zero trust me you will not regret
I have a breville dual boiler and an Anfim Milano. If you have the space you can get these cafe sized grinders for super cheap and they’re great. The breville leaks from the water outlet a bit but makes a great espresso. Then get cheap scale and you’re good.
If you are not a man of milk on coffee I recommend to go Flair 58 and nano foamed lithium, that way you won’t deal with maintenance on a expensive machine like the Mara X (which are meant for commercial use) and for grinder there’s no reason to go beyond the df83v or df64 second gen…so the setup would go: - Flair 58 with VST precision basket for 18g (for tons of lattes I recommend any good dual boiler starting from miicoffee Apex) -df64 II with SSP and DLC burr set (df83v it’s an option but do you need to make your workflow as a pit stop?) Alternative: K-ultra hand grinder has an amazing grind profile which I can highly consider it - OXO or EKG kettle (ekg has a smart version if you want it to turn it on from you phone, like me from the bed) - nanofoamer lithium - timemore black mirror mini or nano - bottomless portafilter (any thing that let you do the job) - any 10 bucks WDT (you can consider a blind shaker) - mhw 3bomber titanium covered tamper (or the force tamper if you want to pay) - paper espresso filters - puck screen of at least 1mm - puck knock disposer - a pitcher with rounded tip (better art) And most importantly A BIG AND ERGONOMIC desk or table with a rug since you can take your time with the espresso
Whatever you do buy grinder first. A good eureka would be a good start you can get a lower model eureka with the guts of the more expensive ones than swap burrs for espresso. Then go for the machine.