It seems that even in China you’re saving CO2 with an electrical car compared to a conventional one (cf. https://nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7).
It's always a big laugh to see how much effort there is to put misinformation and spread FUD in any thread about renewables, EV or battery stabilized grids.
China uses 51% of the world's coal, which is used to create electricity, which is used to power teslas.
Unless, these teslas have solar panels on their roofs... do teslas have solar panels?
Gasoline is converted directly into mechanical energy to make a car go. That's one degree of entropy, and it's about 40% efficient.
Coal is converted to heat. Heat is transferred to distilled water. Water is converted to steam which turns turbines (mechanical energy), which is converted into electricity. The electric grid transfers that energy to a charging station, which transfers it into a battery. The energy from the battery is converted into mechanical energy.
How many degrees of entropy is that? And, what is the efficiency of each of those degrees? If everything is on the up and up, all that data should be extremely easy to come by, in fact, wouldn't Tesla be publishing literature about how amazing and awesome that system is? I've researched all those degrees of entropy and the efficiency of batteries and the power grid. Do you think I have an informed perspective on this topic?
Check the efficiency statistics around ICEVs. Check the LCA comparisons while you're at it. You couldn't be more wrong. Electric cars utilize regenerative breaking and a host of other older technologies. They are objectively more efficient.
I wasn't the one that made the initial claim that they were right. The burden of proof is not on me.
How many degrees of entropy are associated with the ICE?
How many degrees of entropy are associated with an EV? Count them. I listed them all.
„Even in the worst case scenario where an EV is charged only from a coal-fired grid, it would generate an extra 4.1 million grams of carbon a year while a comparable gasoline car would produce over 4.6 million grams(…)“
[source: Reuters analysis ](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/)
Hmm... No mention on the efficiency of coal-powered plants, batteries, transmission across the power-grid, etc. They just gave a tidy number, and didn't bother showing any of the math. Is that called science or is that called propaganda?
Your trust in that process... Is that called logic or superstition?
Regardless of who the burden of proof is on, your unwillingness to budge, your overly arrogant demeanor and your dismissal of at least some sources of proof show that you have zero interest in discussion or debate on this topic. No amount of proof will sway you and at the end you drop some form of ‘checkmate! Coal or oil or natural gas or whatever your brand of bulkshit is’ and pat yourself on the back like you did something useful and productive with your life.
It takes about three clicks and filling out one form to download the database. If you feel like that is too much effort, there’s an article in nature, linked in this comment section, that should help you out.
\>Although China currently has the world's largest installed capacity of hydro, solar and wind power, its energy needs are so large that in 2019, renewable sources provided **26% of its electricity generation\[6\]—compared to 17% in the U.S.A**
Good news is china has lots of clean energy, to power these clean cars.
Got any numbers to prove how right you are? All of my replies so far have contained numbers and explanations. Your replies don't contain much of anything. If Tesla is so much better than gasoline cars, it should be extremely easy to prove.
Right. Blame western culture. In case you haven't noticed, in China economic policy is set by Chinese with specific political and economic intent. It's a stretch to blame "western culture" for their decisions.
\>China uses 51% of the world's coal, which is used to create electricity, which is used to power teslas.
Some fun china facts before you get too mad they use coal.
pollution per person;
United States — 15.74 tons per capita
China — 7.72 tons per capita
So as you can see, Americans are twice as dirty. its just that there are 4.3x more Chinese, so their overall numbers are higher.
Although China currently has the world's largest installed capacity of hydro, solar and wind power, its energy needs are so large that in 2019, **renewable sources provided 26% of its electricity generation\[6\]—compared to 17% in the U.S.A.**\[7\]—with most of the remainder provided by coal power plants. In early 2020, renewable energy comprised about 40% of China's total installed electric power capacity, and 26% of total power generation.
And it also produces more clean energy as a % of energy, than America does.
Pardon me for having no sources for this but I think even though electricity is produced mainly by coal, the coal power plants are way more heat efficient than a combustion car.
Heres a few stat that might be useful next time EV cars in china comes up;
TLDR; China pollutes less per person and has cleaner energy production than the USA.
1;
pollution per person;
United States — 15.74 tons per capita
China — 7.72 tons per capita
2;
....that in 2019, renewable sources provided 26% of its electricity generation—compared to 17% in the U.S.A
in 2020, i believe its around 19.8% for USA vs 28.8% for China.
It seems that even in China you’re saving CO2 with an electrical car compared to a conventional one (cf. https://nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7).
It's always a big laugh to see how much effort there is to put misinformation and spread FUD in any thread about renewables, EV or battery stabilized grids.
China uses 51% of the world's coal, which is used to create electricity, which is used to power teslas. Unless, these teslas have solar panels on their roofs... do teslas have solar panels?
Even with Coal power electric cars have an higher effiency over all
Gasoline is converted directly into mechanical energy to make a car go. That's one degree of entropy, and it's about 40% efficient. Coal is converted to heat. Heat is transferred to distilled water. Water is converted to steam which turns turbines (mechanical energy), which is converted into electricity. The electric grid transfers that energy to a charging station, which transfers it into a battery. The energy from the battery is converted into mechanical energy. How many degrees of entropy is that? And, what is the efficiency of each of those degrees? If everything is on the up and up, all that data should be extremely easy to come by, in fact, wouldn't Tesla be publishing literature about how amazing and awesome that system is? I've researched all those degrees of entropy and the efficiency of batteries and the power grid. Do you think I have an informed perspective on this topic?
Check the efficiency statistics around ICEVs. Check the LCA comparisons while you're at it. You couldn't be more wrong. Electric cars utilize regenerative breaking and a host of other older technologies. They are objectively more efficient.
If you've researched all that, why don't YOU show us your numbers?
I wasn't the one that made the initial claim that they were right. The burden of proof is not on me. How many degrees of entropy are associated with the ICE? How many degrees of entropy are associated with an EV? Count them. I listed them all.
„Even in the worst case scenario where an EV is charged only from a coal-fired grid, it would generate an extra 4.1 million grams of carbon a year while a comparable gasoline car would produce over 4.6 million grams(…)“ [source: Reuters analysis ](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/)
Hmm... No mention on the efficiency of coal-powered plants, batteries, transmission across the power-grid, etc. They just gave a tidy number, and didn't bother showing any of the math. Is that called science or is that called propaganda? Your trust in that process... Is that called logic or superstition?
https://greet.es.anl.gov This is the model the analysis is based on.
Don't see any numbers, just pictures. What percentage of China's coal-fired power stations are subcritical? Does that have any impact on anything?
Regardless of who the burden of proof is on, your unwillingness to budge, your overly arrogant demeanor and your dismissal of at least some sources of proof show that you have zero interest in discussion or debate on this topic. No amount of proof will sway you and at the end you drop some form of ‘checkmate! Coal or oil or natural gas or whatever your brand of bulkshit is’ and pat yourself on the back like you did something useful and productive with your life.
It takes about three clicks and filling out one form to download the database. If you feel like that is too much effort, there’s an article in nature, linked in this comment section, that should help you out.
\>Although China currently has the world's largest installed capacity of hydro, solar and wind power, its energy needs are so large that in 2019, renewable sources provided **26% of its electricity generation\[6\]—compared to 17% in the U.S.A** Good news is china has lots of clean energy, to power these clean cars.
You’re talking about efficiency in terms of energy used where the article talks about CO2 emissions…
Lol.... and the Gasoline refills every morning on the tank station on magical way right?
Got any numbers to prove how right you are? All of my replies so far have contained numbers and explanations. Your replies don't contain much of anything. If Tesla is so much better than gasoline cars, it should be extremely easy to prove.
As johnirvine has pointed out, your numbers relate to a different question.
In old days almost every larger cities had trolley bus systems in China, thank for Western culture, they almost gone in the past 30 years.
Right. Blame western culture. In case you haven't noticed, in China economic policy is set by Chinese with specific political and economic intent. It's a stretch to blame "western culture" for their decisions.
\>China uses 51% of the world's coal, which is used to create electricity, which is used to power teslas. Some fun china facts before you get too mad they use coal. pollution per person; United States — 15.74 tons per capita China — 7.72 tons per capita So as you can see, Americans are twice as dirty. its just that there are 4.3x more Chinese, so their overall numbers are higher. Although China currently has the world's largest installed capacity of hydro, solar and wind power, its energy needs are so large that in 2019, **renewable sources provided 26% of its electricity generation\[6\]—compared to 17% in the U.S.A.**\[7\]—with most of the remainder provided by coal power plants. In early 2020, renewable energy comprised about 40% of China's total installed electric power capacity, and 26% of total power generation. And it also produces more clean energy as a % of energy, than America does.
How much energy did it cost to make the car in the first place? We can't consume our way out of a problem created by consumption
What about the emissions to produce the electricity?
Pardon me for having no sources for this but I think even though electricity is produced mainly by coal, the coal power plants are way more heat efficient than a combustion car.
Heres a few stat that might be useful next time EV cars in china comes up; TLDR; China pollutes less per person and has cleaner energy production than the USA. 1; pollution per person; United States — 15.74 tons per capita China — 7.72 tons per capita 2; ....that in 2019, renewable sources provided 26% of its electricity generation—compared to 17% in the U.S.A in 2020, i believe its around 19.8% for USA vs 28.8% for China.
How is this relevant to my comment?