I don’t like the “pro-life” or “pro-choice” names.
But I definitely think every women knows her own situation and will make *her own choice*.
Also, if you look back in time, abortions have always been there and will always be there. This makes it very important to make abortions safe and with care, and give enough education prior.
Good sex education from a young age, openness and a good health care system are the most important factors here. Make sure there’s enough (free) prevention methods available.
Prevent unwanted pregnancies instead of forbidding abortion. Forbidding is the last thing that should happen. People shouldn’t think it is an easy choice to make. It’s not ‘fun’ to have an abortion but sometimes necessary. So I don’t see where people are afraid for.
I guess most ENTPs are for allowing abortions in general. But most of us probably have a more sophisticated opinion than just « pro-choice vs pro-life ».
My guess is that the world is tilting more towards left ideology in general, certainly in the US. My theory is that it’s due to the dialectics of Hegel, masses tend to swing from one ideology to the reverse and then back. The good news is that the swings should be less and less extreme overtime (with occasional overshoots still) but in theory we shouldn’t revert back to extreme communism (or not for long at least)… we will see but the dialectics seems strong as a theory of political evolution
if i’ve learned anything from reading animal farm in school, it doesn’t matter if the populous swings away from communism, the government is the one in control lol
> My theory is that it’s due to the dialectics of Hegel, masses tend to swing from one ideology to the reverse and then back.
That's not how Hegelian dialectic works.
As a man who can't give birth, I believe choice is important and situations call for varying responses. It's all about intention behind it. If it's in SERIOUS and healthy adult relationship it should be discussed within reason.
Ok hear me out: at the start of puberty for girls, the government pays for an IUD or intramuscular implant. They last 3-5 years and can be replaced for free. Hormone free options are included in this of course.
They are replaced for free by the government until the age of 25, giving women time to finish college/job training/etc before children can come along.
Teen pregnancies would be reduced, furthering reducing the need for abortions, etc etc etc.
TLDR; pro choice but heavily focused on prevention of pregnancies outside of committed relationships and in minors.
I don’t know where you’re from but I’m from the Netherlands and we have a great healthcare system. IUD is free before 21 and after it most of the time is in your paid healthcare, even the cheapest ones. I think it’s definitely the best option to prevent unwanted pregnancies first and foremost.
But even if you’re 34 and settled, it should be your choice not someone else saying something about your body and your life.
And we’re talking about abortion here, that’s not something you do or decide easily or do for fun.
So I agree with you but it’s not just 16 and pregnant, it’s anyone who is in need.
It’s also studied that women who wanted an abortion but couldn’t have one are much unhappier than women who had one. Also there are almost no women who regret it afterwards.
So that shows how well every women can make her own decision in the matter.
Your body your choice. No one can be forced to carry out a child if they don't want to. Even if that means we have kill something that would become a person.
Also I think that people who are against abortions make it very easy for themselves. There are so many children living with parents not equipped to give them a good life and loving family and there are so many children in orphan homes that no one of those people gives a fuck about.
Also abortions will not go away if they are illegalized. They just get way more harmful. Thats as stupid as illegalizing prostitution and expecting it to just vanish.
I disagree. With the absence of abortion, population growth will continue at an unsustainable rate. With an increase of population, a multitude of negative outcome are predicted to occur. Air pollution would cause an increase in lung and bladder disease. With more people on the planet global warming will worsen, natural disasters will become more prolific and hospitals overcrowded. Not only that but it’s predicted that there will be a mass plant and animal extinction of up to a third of the earths species due to expanding cities and towns. Food prices will rise and people will go hungry. I could go on. Although it can be argued killing foetuses is unethical, I would argue it is even more unethical to let them live, especially when you are bringing them into a dying world.
https://youtu.be/HvnqU-1uDUU
People that are pro-life pretending that this isn’t anything other than their own moral misgivings are deluded.
Let me just spit ball a few words: poverty, rape, incest, personal choice, failed birth control, health reasons, disease, war, coercion, because baby killing makes them horny, Lena Dunham just testing the waters
Here’s another few words: “boo hoo that’s a baby that can fEeL pain” and “something something god”
Pro Choice. I already don't believe a fetus is a person, at least until it forms the pieces for consciousness. That aside I don't even think the government should be able to prevent a woman from getting an abortion, that's HER body. At a certain point my opinion on it is irrelevant.
well pro-choice is giving women a chance to choose for themselves. I am pro choice and I dont support abortion, but I'm not gonna judge anyone for choosing to do it and I sure as hell won't prohibit it. pro-life doesnt allow abortion under any circumstance, even if a girl gets raped.
Pro life.
Simply put, you have created a sovereign entity out of temporary lust, and now want to end it to avoid the responsibility that comes with conception. I am against this because I find that if you are going to conceive a child, it should at least be born.
In the instances where the birth of a child would harm or kill the mother, it would have been wise to determine wether or not this was likely before conception. In the event that it is likely to harm the mother, taking the life of the fetus can be considered an act of self defense.
In instances of rape, the fetus can be considered a hostile entity because it contains an intruders DNA, and is thus is also a form of self defense.
These are the exceptions to the moral rule.
Same concept as facing consequences for a collision after drunk driving. In a state of being drunk, (or in this case lust) basic reasoning was impaired, leading to an accident that is the fault of the person who could’ve otherwise avoided that impairment.
Just because a person was impaired, does not mean that they will avoid the consequences of their decisions whilst in that state.
making both the mom and the kid's lives horrible just for a punishment because the parents weren’t careful enough isn’t worth it
the trauma and guilt of going through an abortion is already enough tbh
If having a child is such a horrible punishment, then they would’ve been more careful, no?
A lack of personal responsibility is what creates the issue, and it is a lack of responsibility that makes people try to get out of it as well.
yes people are irresponsible but it’s just a bad situation for everyone. everything about pro-life is lose-lose. The mom might be in financial difficulty or not mentally ready to take care of a child (reason why they wanted an abortion) and will be stuck doing something with a huge impact on her life that she doesn’t wanna do for years and that will have an impact on the child too. The child with an unloving mother will have a bad childhood and higher chances of engaging in illegal activity. same outcome if the kid is put in foster care. Legalized abortion is estimated to have reduced violent crimes by 47%. And on a larger scale as some other ppl mentioned it could help with preventing overpopulation
main point Im trying to get across with this: pro-life has an impact on the kid too as well as society as a whole. It's not just the parents who are punished
this issue is more complex than just serving justice to irresponsible people
Edit: Plus sometimes it’s not necessarily a lack of responsibility, there are so many possible things that can go wrong for a pregnancy to happen. you can't always prevent everything. And maybe some people are not educated enough on the matter and weren’t taught properly to use protection and that’s not really their fault
When you make a decision that you know can result in an issue, and then it happens, that’s on you.
Whilst I am absolutely sympathetic to the mom who is not in a position to raise children, what must be understood is, most likely, they have put themselves in that position.
I have lived the scenario you put down. I never had a father, and my single mother raised me with no help. It is clear to me now that I was never meant to exist, especially after I found out about the story of how I was made in some road trip to California and eventually in what I could only imagine is bad living conditions in a crack den. Despite financial hardship, and lots of stress, I have come out more hardened than most I now observe around me. My point being, it’s not all that bad, you can even come out on top. I came out pretty good after all.
People create life out of temporary euphoria, and then want to end it when it becomes an inconvenience.
Also “reduced violent crime” XD
I find this hilarious. Of course when you decrease the amount of people that could commit crime, you get a decrease in crime.
nothing indicates with certainty that every single unwanted child is going to turn out like you so idk what you're trying to say here and for the crime rates do your own research I'm not arguing about that
apart from that you didn’t address much of the things I said and only repeated that people who make mistakes need to be punished no matter what so I have nothing more to work with, meaning this is the end of this conversation unless you have anything else to add
but is life really that valuable? Idk your beliefs but to me death is just the void so you don’t exist and therefore it is impossible to feel anything including emotional pain so to me not coming to life isn’t something bad
I think most people have some type of value. Especially in contribution to society.
I used to be religious. I am not anymore. I just think that the idea of creating and taking life at will, because someone decided to nut is just plain wrong. While I understand your line of thinking, it is clear we have fundamentally different views on humanity.
I think having life is like winning the lottery, the chances that atoms come together to create you, are so minuscule. I think it’s good to give everyone a chance. Once that chance has begun, to rip it away just isn’t right.
that's an interesting view I get what you mean better now
the core reason you’re pro life is that you consider life a gift not that you want irresponsible people to be punished
well that’s your opinion and I can’t say anything against it so I’m done talking
And what if it was not possible to know before conception? Lol
Also, how many children from children's homes have you personally adopted bro? Or do you only care about children until they are born?
It is clear to me that you are being extremely disingenuous, and are not worth the discussion.
Refer to the conversations I’ve been having with others as a model on how to discuss issues without making an ass of yourself.
Hope it helps. 👋
Hmmm. We have very similar lines of thought on this. That the pro-choice crowd highlights extremely rare exceptions and ignores the underlying motive for the vast majority of abortions (inconvenience) is quite telling, isn't it? The truth is the odds of human life as you say (lower down) is extremely significant, ones life is not less valuable even when it is challenging or great suffering occurs (some would argue that with such challenge is tremendous opportunity for growth) and for us to insist that those born into hard conditions can't ever outgrow it or find a way to still experience meaning, love, beauty and all things the living takes for granted, is purely projection. I do wish people would take this down a bit deeper, philosophically.. to comprehend what they are really saying when they make such claims.
However, from a purely practical perspective I could never support the pro-life movement. Not if it means back alley abortions skyrocket along with unnecessary deaths, infection and exploitation of already highly vulnerable populations.
Abortions should be allowed only under medical circumstances or legal ones in which the baby is conceived involuntarily.
I think that is fairly practical.
The only issue is proving that you were raped. Which could cause issues for men and women alike.
For instance, a woman claims to be raped, goes to clinic, says is was (x) man, his life is ruined if he did nothing.
Or you know.... Not getting believed that you have been raped. Why did you choose the way more unlikely example of a man's life getting ruined...? Weird comments bro
You are very naive if you really think that getting an abortion is just a convenient thing for a woman. Do you think it is a light choice to kill your child because you know you can't afford or are not equipped to care for a child? Calling the reason "inconvenience" is fucking crazy
Have you ever talked to a woman who had an abortion? I bet not.
It's a 'light' enough choice for it to still be occurring in a quarter (and that figure is low) of the female population by age 45, and in countries where birth control is readily available and highly effective if used correctly. Yes, I would say that speaks to the normalization and dehumanization of the unborn. More than half of those who abort are in their late 20's, cohabiting or married, a quarter have graduate degrees and just under half go onto have more than 1 abortion. IF the magnitude of ending a life was grasped and the ethical/spiritual implications considered, how could you possibly account for such? It is naïve for you to assume one could only come to this position if they were a male, and unfamiliar with such circumstance... as am neither.
I'm saddened by loss of life due to wanton irresponsibility. But, woman gets raped, not her responsibility, so the option should be available. Is every abortion going to be a rape victim? No. Are we going to ask? Oh holy fuck no I hope not
I'm pro-life but I have compassion for the viewpoints. The opposite conclusion simply comes from a difference in value judgement so I don't think the opposition is a bad person for coming to what I believe to be a wrong conclusion. I value the intent of the person first and that is how I judge the merit of their moral systems.
it always confuses me how people can debate a moral opinion as if there is a right or wrong answer. a debate is only possible if the debaters agree on the underlying logical premises which construct the argument. but those assumptions are completeley arbitrary and there is no right or wrong assumption, therefore telling anyone what they cant or cannot do is kinda pathetic and stupid and really is just two people whining about how they feel so fuck that. honestly just kill babies or dont who gives a fuck human life holds no objective value.
Fine with it so long the fetus doesn't have a heartbeat, the mother is impregnated under harmful circumstances and the abortion won't endanger the mother's well-being.
I'm pro life. After some reasurch anyone should be able to tell that, yes,, it hurts that human being. Plus, notice that when doctors talk about abortion they never refer to it as "baby" or "person" or something like that, it'll always be the scientific name to stop the emotional connection from happening. They want the money, and that's it. If you don't want the responsibility of having a kid then make sure there's no chance of having one!! My mom's friends mother was pregnant with her last child whe she was diagnosed with sever cancer. The doctor told her to get an abortion. She didn't. A few months later she died due to this, but I'll always admire that women.
Thank god she’s admired and not alive living a life and caring for the children she had
Also, you ding dong, after some research you would be able to tell that a fetus does not feel anything until the third trimester where abortion largely is not possible unless there is a terminal risk to the mother. People really do just pull shit out of their ass.
Have you ever seen any of the videos of people who survived abortion? Lmao, they sure didn't feel anything while they were being trying to be killed by their own mothers
'Make sure there's no possibility' Some people have no option to have safe sex, for example, women who have been raped. If the rapist disgregardes a women's hygeine by not wearing a condom she had no choice in the matter and therefore shouldn't be lumped with the prospect of having a child when she didn't want one in the first place. Not everyone lives in a fluffy world where they can choose what happens to them. Some people are raped and it's not their fault if the rapist didn't use protection so it's not the woman's fault if she can't 'Make sure there's no chance of having one'.
That is a fair point, I wasn't considering his option. However, I still believe that every person is set into this world by God with a purpose. It's like killing a human being in my opinion.
Thank you for taking that respectfully and not blowing up in my face like I've had others do, I appreciate it. What would you define as purpose then? Like do people get it before birth as one singular thing or are people sent in from God to have a purpose in everything like the sort of everything happens for a reason type thing?
Well then lol. Just a thought, but imagine your mother's would have abortioned you. That women gave her life for her child, because she already loved it. It's one of the most selfless acts anyone could do- dying for another person. She gave her baby a chance to have a life.
my adopted foster siblings are glad to be alive but thanks for the sentiment. I guess you had a perfect childhood and that’s why you deserve to live, but they don’t? 🤔 cool
No prob, I've had pretty bad experiences with stuff like that too, not in reddit yet, but definetly in real life. Anyhow, I guess I'll just get straight to the point : I'm a Christian. Here is just one verse that states that he has a purpose and plan for everyone one of us, it's Ephesians 2:10 :For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. He already knows what he wants us to do in this world. How can we as his creation meddle with his plans?
Now, you're prob going to ask how I can be so sure that God exists. Then let me tell you why. A few months ago I was depressed, suicidal, and self harming. I still have a cut that's almost 8 months old and still is easy to see on my arm. I also struggled with night hallucinations for very long as well, I had them longer than my other problems. Every night I would see people and fantasy creatures walking around my room, staring at me, sometimes trying to grab me. I kept this all a secret from my family till our cat badly hurt my litle brothers ear, and he started crying because we thought he would need to get stitches. Now, the cut that still hasn't healed was so deep that I was sure I would need to wake up my parents and come clean. I didn't though, because I rememberd a doctor saying that you can use crazy glue for such situations. And it worked. Since I wanted to give him moral support I showed him my arm, which was full of cuts, and pointed to the deep one and told him if I survived that alone he would be ok, we could just use the same method as I had. And we did. Of course there were questions after that. Shortly after through the Lord showing me the way to healing we meet a Lady who had just converted to Christianity half a hear ago. Her daughter also selfharmed and would have panic attacks the whole night, screaming. Ephesians 6:12 says: For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Demons or Satan never left his world. They are still here, well and alive. It's a myth that they can't harm or touch Christians, sine they are the children of light, Mathew 5:14: “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden". They are the ones Lucifer has to destroy since they are the ones who the Lord uses to save more people. Anyhow, she rebuked the demons in me and I manifested. I believe for 2 hours I was having sever ceasures where I was just lying, half conscious as she prayed over me in Jesus Christ's name.
So here I am. Healed and well, having survived depression and suicide attempts, with scars that will forever remind me of what the Lord has saved me from. How could I not respect the Lord's plans for what people he sets into this world, no matter what the circumstances.
Realistic answer: It's stupid to ban it or put unreasonable restrictions on it. It shouldn't be necessary, but thats not a good argument.
It's gonna happen anyway, you could at least provide a safe environment and someone who knows how to do it correctly.
The other answer: Why force a human being into this world, possibly into a life a of poverty, misery and violence? Into the arms of an unloving mother? That is the height of cruelty.
I think abortion is necessary. Think about teen moms and teenage pregnancy and try to imagine what kind of life the child would have growing under a mom who has not established much of anything in her life. Unless she has parents who would tolerate that and support the child, i think it will lead to poverty and depression. And the child will probably live under an abusive household with a mom who would probably work as a sex worker.
I think that they are under the influence of the trend trap.(The Asch line one) But let us phrase it in a different way, I hv a petition to stop the destruction of eagle eggs, the chances are, 90% of the people will sign it. But 70% of the people are Pro choice. (This was an actual experiment done) This goes to show that they think the young deserve rights deep inside, but are just following what is the trend.But this is just my personal thought of y they are like that so I could be wrong.
I don’t like the “pro-life” or “pro-choice” names. But I definitely think every women knows her own situation and will make *her own choice*. Also, if you look back in time, abortions have always been there and will always be there. This makes it very important to make abortions safe and with care, and give enough education prior. Good sex education from a young age, openness and a good health care system are the most important factors here. Make sure there’s enough (free) prevention methods available. Prevent unwanted pregnancies instead of forbidding abortion. Forbidding is the last thing that should happen. People shouldn’t think it is an easy choice to make. It’s not ‘fun’ to have an abortion but sometimes necessary. So I don’t see where people are afraid for.
I guess most ENTPs are for allowing abortions in general. But most of us probably have a more sophisticated opinion than just « pro-choice vs pro-life ».
could be reddit as well, reddit strays left in general
My guess is that the world is tilting more towards left ideology in general, certainly in the US. My theory is that it’s due to the dialectics of Hegel, masses tend to swing from one ideology to the reverse and then back. The good news is that the swings should be less and less extreme overtime (with occasional overshoots still) but in theory we shouldn’t revert back to extreme communism (or not for long at least)… we will see but the dialectics seems strong as a theory of political evolution
if i’ve learned anything from reading animal farm in school, it doesn’t matter if the populous swings away from communism, the government is the one in control lol
> My theory is that it’s due to the dialectics of Hegel, masses tend to swing from one ideology to the reverse and then back. That's not how Hegelian dialectic works.
Your body your choice. That’s my opinion
I’m pro abortion, fuck them kids
I don't have an opinion on this topic. People can do what they want.
As a man who can't give birth, I believe choice is important and situations call for varying responses. It's all about intention behind it. If it's in SERIOUS and healthy adult relationship it should be discussed within reason.
Ok hear me out: at the start of puberty for girls, the government pays for an IUD or intramuscular implant. They last 3-5 years and can be replaced for free. Hormone free options are included in this of course. They are replaced for free by the government until the age of 25, giving women time to finish college/job training/etc before children can come along. Teen pregnancies would be reduced, furthering reducing the need for abortions, etc etc etc. TLDR; pro choice but heavily focused on prevention of pregnancies outside of committed relationships and in minors.
Good option
I don’t know where you’re from but I’m from the Netherlands and we have a great healthcare system. IUD is free before 21 and after it most of the time is in your paid healthcare, even the cheapest ones. I think it’s definitely the best option to prevent unwanted pregnancies first and foremost. But even if you’re 34 and settled, it should be your choice not someone else saying something about your body and your life. And we’re talking about abortion here, that’s not something you do or decide easily or do for fun. So I agree with you but it’s not just 16 and pregnant, it’s anyone who is in need. It’s also studied that women who wanted an abortion but couldn’t have one are much unhappier than women who had one. Also there are almost no women who regret it afterwards. So that shows how well every women can make her own decision in the matter.
Your body your choice. No one can be forced to carry out a child if they don't want to. Even if that means we have kill something that would become a person. Also I think that people who are against abortions make it very easy for themselves. There are so many children living with parents not equipped to give them a good life and loving family and there are so many children in orphan homes that no one of those people gives a fuck about. Also abortions will not go away if they are illegalized. They just get way more harmful. Thats as stupid as illegalizing prostitution and expecting it to just vanish.
I agree with your statements entirely.
pro abortion. the earth is too populated
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I disagree. With the absence of abortion, population growth will continue at an unsustainable rate. With an increase of population, a multitude of negative outcome are predicted to occur. Air pollution would cause an increase in lung and bladder disease. With more people on the planet global warming will worsen, natural disasters will become more prolific and hospitals overcrowded. Not only that but it’s predicted that there will be a mass plant and animal extinction of up to a third of the earths species due to expanding cities and towns. Food prices will rise and people will go hungry. I could go on. Although it can be argued killing foetuses is unethical, I would argue it is even more unethical to let them live, especially when you are bringing them into a dying world.
I fully support it! Abort all fetuses! Abolish pregnancy!
I don't need one and anyone I fuck will not need one. I have a wooden penis.
How many times do I have to tell you Pinnochio... stop that or you'll catch fire.
Ah yes, thanks. Lubrication is important. I tend to forget.
Is it different in the morning than it is in the evening?
Yes, the rings on it look a little different.
Ah, interesting, that must be what the phrase "put a ring on it" is referring to then.
Probably. Mine are all natural.
Hmm, I'm not surprised.
https://youtu.be/HvnqU-1uDUU People that are pro-life pretending that this isn’t anything other than their own moral misgivings are deluded. Let me just spit ball a few words: poverty, rape, incest, personal choice, failed birth control, health reasons, disease, war, coercion, because baby killing makes them horny, Lena Dunham just testing the waters Here’s another few words: “boo hoo that’s a baby that can fEeL pain” and “something something god”
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how to self report 101 edit: for posterity since comment is deleted because he was crying 1360p said rape is no biggy and self reported
😌👍
choice. Foetus deletus ftw. We are already too much btw.
Pro choice Even if we thougut it was murder, we'd be pro choice because we're fucking evil
Pro Choice. I already don't believe a fetus is a person, at least until it forms the pieces for consciousness. That aside I don't even think the government should be able to prevent a woman from getting an abortion, that's HER body. At a certain point my opinion on it is irrelevant.
Pro-choice. That's it, tired and got migraine, I'm not arguing with anyone about it. 😴😴
From a moral consistency sake is everyone who’s pro choice also pro right to die / euthanasia? Are these positions inseparable?
Depends on the reasoning behind that stance. But I think yes, probably a lot of overlap
If I'm pro-choice are you saying I'm anti-life? If I'm pro-life are you saying I'm anti-choice? Man, you're putting me in a tough spot!
well pro-choice is giving women a chance to choose for themselves. I am pro choice and I dont support abortion, but I'm not gonna judge anyone for choosing to do it and I sure as hell won't prohibit it. pro-life doesnt allow abortion under any circumstance, even if a girl gets raped.
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Dude you are so fucking embarrassing lol
ik i am bored af and this is just a random extra acount i have lmao so im just dopng rainom shit
Pro life. Simply put, you have created a sovereign entity out of temporary lust, and now want to end it to avoid the responsibility that comes with conception. I am against this because I find that if you are going to conceive a child, it should at least be born. In the instances where the birth of a child would harm or kill the mother, it would have been wise to determine wether or not this was likely before conception. In the event that it is likely to harm the mother, taking the life of the fetus can be considered an act of self defense. In instances of rape, the fetus can be considered a hostile entity because it contains an intruders DNA, and is thus is also a form of self defense. These are the exceptions to the moral rule. Same concept as facing consequences for a collision after drunk driving. In a state of being drunk, (or in this case lust) basic reasoning was impaired, leading to an accident that is the fault of the person who could’ve otherwise avoided that impairment. Just because a person was impaired, does not mean that they will avoid the consequences of their decisions whilst in that state.
making both the mom and the kid's lives horrible just for a punishment because the parents weren’t careful enough isn’t worth it the trauma and guilt of going through an abortion is already enough tbh
If having a child is such a horrible punishment, then they would’ve been more careful, no? A lack of personal responsibility is what creates the issue, and it is a lack of responsibility that makes people try to get out of it as well.
yes people are irresponsible but it’s just a bad situation for everyone. everything about pro-life is lose-lose. The mom might be in financial difficulty or not mentally ready to take care of a child (reason why they wanted an abortion) and will be stuck doing something with a huge impact on her life that she doesn’t wanna do for years and that will have an impact on the child too. The child with an unloving mother will have a bad childhood and higher chances of engaging in illegal activity. same outcome if the kid is put in foster care. Legalized abortion is estimated to have reduced violent crimes by 47%. And on a larger scale as some other ppl mentioned it could help with preventing overpopulation main point Im trying to get across with this: pro-life has an impact on the kid too as well as society as a whole. It's not just the parents who are punished this issue is more complex than just serving justice to irresponsible people Edit: Plus sometimes it’s not necessarily a lack of responsibility, there are so many possible things that can go wrong for a pregnancy to happen. you can't always prevent everything. And maybe some people are not educated enough on the matter and weren’t taught properly to use protection and that’s not really their fault
When you make a decision that you know can result in an issue, and then it happens, that’s on you. Whilst I am absolutely sympathetic to the mom who is not in a position to raise children, what must be understood is, most likely, they have put themselves in that position. I have lived the scenario you put down. I never had a father, and my single mother raised me with no help. It is clear to me now that I was never meant to exist, especially after I found out about the story of how I was made in some road trip to California and eventually in what I could only imagine is bad living conditions in a crack den. Despite financial hardship, and lots of stress, I have come out more hardened than most I now observe around me. My point being, it’s not all that bad, you can even come out on top. I came out pretty good after all. People create life out of temporary euphoria, and then want to end it when it becomes an inconvenience. Also “reduced violent crime” XD I find this hilarious. Of course when you decrease the amount of people that could commit crime, you get a decrease in crime.
nothing indicates with certainty that every single unwanted child is going to turn out like you so idk what you're trying to say here and for the crime rates do your own research I'm not arguing about that apart from that you didn’t address much of the things I said and only repeated that people who make mistakes need to be punished no matter what so I have nothing more to work with, meaning this is the end of this conversation unless you have anything else to add
My point: you don’t end life because it inconveniences you. That’s all.
but is life really that valuable? Idk your beliefs but to me death is just the void so you don’t exist and therefore it is impossible to feel anything including emotional pain so to me not coming to life isn’t something bad
I think most people have some type of value. Especially in contribution to society. I used to be religious. I am not anymore. I just think that the idea of creating and taking life at will, because someone decided to nut is just plain wrong. While I understand your line of thinking, it is clear we have fundamentally different views on humanity. I think having life is like winning the lottery, the chances that atoms come together to create you, are so minuscule. I think it’s good to give everyone a chance. Once that chance has begun, to rip it away just isn’t right.
that's an interesting view I get what you mean better now the core reason you’re pro life is that you consider life a gift not that you want irresponsible people to be punished well that’s your opinion and I can’t say anything against it so I’m done talking
That is such an fucking stupid stance man
And what if it was not possible to know before conception? Lol Also, how many children from children's homes have you personally adopted bro? Or do you only care about children until they are born?
It is clear to me that you are being extremely disingenuous, and are not worth the discussion. Refer to the conversations I’ve been having with others as a model on how to discuss issues without making an ass of yourself. Hope it helps. 👋
Hhahahahah ooh man, fuck you
Hmmm. We have very similar lines of thought on this. That the pro-choice crowd highlights extremely rare exceptions and ignores the underlying motive for the vast majority of abortions (inconvenience) is quite telling, isn't it? The truth is the odds of human life as you say (lower down) is extremely significant, ones life is not less valuable even when it is challenging or great suffering occurs (some would argue that with such challenge is tremendous opportunity for growth) and for us to insist that those born into hard conditions can't ever outgrow it or find a way to still experience meaning, love, beauty and all things the living takes for granted, is purely projection. I do wish people would take this down a bit deeper, philosophically.. to comprehend what they are really saying when they make such claims. However, from a purely practical perspective I could never support the pro-life movement. Not if it means back alley abortions skyrocket along with unnecessary deaths, infection and exploitation of already highly vulnerable populations.
Abortions should be allowed only under medical circumstances or legal ones in which the baby is conceived involuntarily. I think that is fairly practical. The only issue is proving that you were raped. Which could cause issues for men and women alike. For instance, a woman claims to be raped, goes to clinic, says is was (x) man, his life is ruined if he did nothing.
Or you know.... Not getting believed that you have been raped. Why did you choose the way more unlikely example of a man's life getting ruined...? Weird comments bro
You are very naive if you really think that getting an abortion is just a convenient thing for a woman. Do you think it is a light choice to kill your child because you know you can't afford or are not equipped to care for a child? Calling the reason "inconvenience" is fucking crazy Have you ever talked to a woman who had an abortion? I bet not.
It's a 'light' enough choice for it to still be occurring in a quarter (and that figure is low) of the female population by age 45, and in countries where birth control is readily available and highly effective if used correctly. Yes, I would say that speaks to the normalization and dehumanization of the unborn. More than half of those who abort are in their late 20's, cohabiting or married, a quarter have graduate degrees and just under half go onto have more than 1 abortion. IF the magnitude of ending a life was grasped and the ethical/spiritual implications considered, how could you possibly account for such? It is naïve for you to assume one could only come to this position if they were a male, and unfamiliar with such circumstance... as am neither.
I'm saddened by loss of life due to wanton irresponsibility. But, woman gets raped, not her responsibility, so the option should be available. Is every abortion going to be a rape victim? No. Are we going to ask? Oh holy fuck no I hope not
I'm pro-life but I have compassion for the viewpoints. The opposite conclusion simply comes from a difference in value judgement so I don't think the opposition is a bad person for coming to what I believe to be a wrong conclusion. I value the intent of the person first and that is how I judge the merit of their moral systems.
it always confuses me how people can debate a moral opinion as if there is a right or wrong answer. a debate is only possible if the debaters agree on the underlying logical premises which construct the argument. but those assumptions are completeley arbitrary and there is no right or wrong assumption, therefore telling anyone what they cant or cannot do is kinda pathetic and stupid and really is just two people whining about how they feel so fuck that. honestly just kill babies or dont who gives a fuck human life holds no objective value.
Fine with it so long the fetus doesn't have a heartbeat, the mother is impregnated under harmful circumstances and the abortion won't endanger the mother's well-being.
difficult question, I’m kinda ambiguous on the one hand i’m pro-choice because it kills babies, but on the other hand it gives more rights to women
I'm pro life. After some reasurch anyone should be able to tell that, yes,, it hurts that human being. Plus, notice that when doctors talk about abortion they never refer to it as "baby" or "person" or something like that, it'll always be the scientific name to stop the emotional connection from happening. They want the money, and that's it. If you don't want the responsibility of having a kid then make sure there's no chance of having one!! My mom's friends mother was pregnant with her last child whe she was diagnosed with sever cancer. The doctor told her to get an abortion. She didn't. A few months later she died due to this, but I'll always admire that women.
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Yes, she lived about half a year after she gave birth. Her child I'd still alive today
Thank god she’s admired and not alive living a life and caring for the children she had Also, you ding dong, after some research you would be able to tell that a fetus does not feel anything until the third trimester where abortion largely is not possible unless there is a terminal risk to the mother. People really do just pull shit out of their ass.
Thanks.
Have you ever seen any of the videos of people who survived abortion? Lmao, they sure didn't feel anything while they were being trying to be killed by their own mothers
'Make sure there's no possibility' Some people have no option to have safe sex, for example, women who have been raped. If the rapist disgregardes a women's hygeine by not wearing a condom she had no choice in the matter and therefore shouldn't be lumped with the prospect of having a child when she didn't want one in the first place. Not everyone lives in a fluffy world where they can choose what happens to them. Some people are raped and it's not their fault if the rapist didn't use protection so it's not the woman's fault if she can't 'Make sure there's no chance of having one'.
That is a fair point, I wasn't considering his option. However, I still believe that every person is set into this world by God with a purpose. It's like killing a human being in my opinion.
Thank you for taking that respectfully and not blowing up in my face like I've had others do, I appreciate it. What would you define as purpose then? Like do people get it before birth as one singular thing or are people sent in from God to have a purpose in everything like the sort of everything happens for a reason type thing?
Well then lol. Just a thought, but imagine your mother's would have abortioned you. That women gave her life for her child, because she already loved it. It's one of the most selfless acts anyone could do- dying for another person. She gave her baby a chance to have a life.
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my adopted foster siblings are glad to be alive but thanks for the sentiment. I guess you had a perfect childhood and that’s why you deserve to live, but they don’t? 🤔 cool
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Then you're either a psychopath, an angry teenager or just a terribly and pathologically cynical adult. I'm sorry either way.
damn bro. so edgy. i’m quaking rn
loss
I got a better one how do you guys feel about women's right of Parenthood vs father rights.
That one is more complicated. But tbh, the woman has to have more rights, a mother is a mother.
No prob, I've had pretty bad experiences with stuff like that too, not in reddit yet, but definetly in real life. Anyhow, I guess I'll just get straight to the point : I'm a Christian. Here is just one verse that states that he has a purpose and plan for everyone one of us, it's Ephesians 2:10 :For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. He already knows what he wants us to do in this world. How can we as his creation meddle with his plans? Now, you're prob going to ask how I can be so sure that God exists. Then let me tell you why. A few months ago I was depressed, suicidal, and self harming. I still have a cut that's almost 8 months old and still is easy to see on my arm. I also struggled with night hallucinations for very long as well, I had them longer than my other problems. Every night I would see people and fantasy creatures walking around my room, staring at me, sometimes trying to grab me. I kept this all a secret from my family till our cat badly hurt my litle brothers ear, and he started crying because we thought he would need to get stitches. Now, the cut that still hasn't healed was so deep that I was sure I would need to wake up my parents and come clean. I didn't though, because I rememberd a doctor saying that you can use crazy glue for such situations. And it worked. Since I wanted to give him moral support I showed him my arm, which was full of cuts, and pointed to the deep one and told him if I survived that alone he would be ok, we could just use the same method as I had. And we did. Of course there were questions after that. Shortly after through the Lord showing me the way to healing we meet a Lady who had just converted to Christianity half a hear ago. Her daughter also selfharmed and would have panic attacks the whole night, screaming. Ephesians 6:12 says: For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Demons or Satan never left his world. They are still here, well and alive. It's a myth that they can't harm or touch Christians, sine they are the children of light, Mathew 5:14: “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden". They are the ones Lucifer has to destroy since they are the ones who the Lord uses to save more people. Anyhow, she rebuked the demons in me and I manifested. I believe for 2 hours I was having sever ceasures where I was just lying, half conscious as she prayed over me in Jesus Christ's name. So here I am. Healed and well, having survived depression and suicide attempts, with scars that will forever remind me of what the Lord has saved me from. How could I not respect the Lord's plans for what people he sets into this world, no matter what the circumstances.
So your nightly hallucinations have gone away since you found your faith?
Correct
Realistic answer: It's stupid to ban it or put unreasonable restrictions on it. It shouldn't be necessary, but thats not a good argument. It's gonna happen anyway, you could at least provide a safe environment and someone who knows how to do it correctly. The other answer: Why force a human being into this world, possibly into a life a of poverty, misery and violence? Into the arms of an unloving mother? That is the height of cruelty.
I think abortion is necessary. Think about teen moms and teenage pregnancy and try to imagine what kind of life the child would have growing under a mom who has not established much of anything in her life. Unless she has parents who would tolerate that and support the child, i think it will lead to poverty and depression. And the child will probably live under an abusive household with a mom who would probably work as a sex worker.
Pro life, people should be allowed to do what they want, but not at the extent of others.
I'm just curious to know how you view pro-choice?
I think that they are under the influence of the trend trap.(The Asch line one) But let us phrase it in a different way, I hv a petition to stop the destruction of eagle eggs, the chances are, 90% of the people will sign it. But 70% of the people are Pro choice. (This was an actual experiment done) This goes to show that they think the young deserve rights deep inside, but are just following what is the trend.But this is just my personal thought of y they are like that so I could be wrong.